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Author Topic: Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon  (Read 33914 times)

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Offline fathertime

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That is not true.  I have disagreed with Gator plenty and there is no quid pro quo disrespect.  You get what you give.


Actually it is true, but you are not on the 'other side' of this issue....if you were, you would be singing a far different tune....he has demonstrated off-topic discrediting tactics, and  disrespect quite often.   Being very old isn't an excuse....all that said, for most people, and most cases you do get what you give, but that isn't universally true.  In this particular crisis, there are valid concerns coming from both sides. 


Fathertime! 
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Offline fathertime

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I was sniffing around on the internet this evening and I read a story about the Syrian rebels that we (the USA) have been arming with heavy weaponry.  As of this evening the rebels have disbanded, and now many of those weapons are in the hands of ISIS.  I have actually asserted that last part, I don't know for sure where all the weapons are, but I'm speculating that ISIS has some of them.  I don't know what we spent so far on this mission, but whatever amount, it appears misguided and counter-productive at this point.  If we were to arm the Ukrainian military, my speculation is that a lot of the weapons would wind up in Russian hands and a lot of additional Ukrainian men would be dead. 


http://www.ibtimes.com/us-backed-syrian-rebel-group-dissolves-after-losing-hundreds-men-battle-1832900



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Offline Gator

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Good point Steamer.  I have observed that certain posters like Gator insist they are correct disagree repeatedly with my opinion that Ukraine should capitulate.  Ukraine should have allowed Russia to annex Crimea and the Donbass uncontested,  and in turn negotiated a win-win agreement with Putin whereby the remainder of Ukraine could pursue the goal of improving its economy by following the Western model.

Fixed it for you. 



Quote
If you disagree vehemently,  you can wind up demonized with off-topic misrepresentations.    If you ask him privately to play tag team on the discussion board against another RWD member who had been chastising both of us, he will not participate and be offended that you asked him to do such.  And then become incensed if I lie about it.
 

Another.

Quote
The bottom line is he really has no respect for others my win-win, capitulation opinions, which I repeated only 100 times before realizing that no one else respected them either.   He even referred to me as Neville Chamberlain, yet everyone knows Mendy originated my doppelgänger. 

And another.


Quote
There are valid opinions regarding certain aspects of this conflict and posters should express regardless of know it all's angry complaints.

Correct, no need for any fixes.  BTW, have you followed Mendy's suggestions for how to educate yourself so you can stay up with the discussion?

Offline Gator

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That is not true.  I have disagreed with Gator plenty and there is no quid pro quo disrespect.  You get what you give.

You are the MAN.

Offline mendeleyev

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Neville:
Quote
I was sniffing around on the internet this evening and I read a story about the Syrian rebels that we (the USA) have been arming with heavy weaponry.  As of this evening the rebels have disbanded, and now many of those weapons are in the hands of ISIS.  I have actually asserted that last part, I don't know for sure where all the weapons are, but I'm speculating that ISIS has some of them.  I don't know what we spent so far on this mission, but whatever amount, it appears misguided and counter-productive at this point. 

Having been on observer teams to Syria twice during that "crisis," I'll have to agree. The debacle at Benghazi, and failure to save our men there, was a result of not wanting the US weapons distribution operations to be uncovered.


Quote
If we were to arm the Ukrainian military, my speculation is that a lot of the weapons would wind up in Russian hands and a lot of additional Ukrainian men would be dead. 

Not at all. Prior to the developments in Crimea, yes. Today however, the Ukrainian military has grown up a lot. Real experience has made men out of boys (one of the reasons Putin sends young boys there, too), and with proper equipment the Ukrainians could accomplish quite a lot.

There is no comparison between rag-tag zealots of Syria and IS, versus the Ukrainian Army.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline fathertime

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Neville:
Having been on observer teams to Syria twice during that "crisis," I'll have to agree. The debacle at Benghazi, and failure to save our men there, was a result of not wanting the US weapons distribution operations to be uncovered.


Not at all. Prior to the developments in Crimea, yes. Today however, the Ukrainian military has grown up a lot. Real experience has made men out of boys (one of the reasons Putin sends young boys there, too), and with proper equipment the Ukrainians could accomplish quite a lot.

There is no comparison between rag-tag zealots of Syria and IS, versus the Ukrainian Army.


Well it remains to be seen regarding the Ukrainian army.  My impression wasn't that we armed zealots in Syria, but rather moderate forces, and yet they have have been either killed or disbanded and the weapons are likely in the opposition's hands now.  I can see a similar outcome with Ukrainian forces verses Russian forces.  It will be the Ukrainians that pay with lives, and us that pays with our money.   


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Offline fathertime

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Quote
[/size]If you ask him privately to play tag team on the discussion board against another RWD member who had been chastising both of us, he will not participate and be offended that you asked him to do such.  And then become incensed if I lie about it.


I believe this is probably around the 5th time you have made a false accusation AND tried to rewrite history.  The fact remains, that I have written documentation that YOU made unsolicited comments regarding other members, in addition it was done verbally.  You apparently know this is likely true, as you suddenly wanted to turn this into a private matter, when I mentioned that I would be willing to share the material with those posters.   If you are incensed that is fine with me, you have brought it on yourself, and if you had any self-awareness/intelligence, you would realize that YOU created the problem, as I was merely discussing viewpoints in Ukraine, when you began to have outbursts of anger.   


Ultimately, Ukraine is going to have to capitulate to one degree or another.  If  30 people on a website don't think they should, that won't make a difference.  I continue to hold that the best move is to negotiate and give up some land, as that is not that big a deal in comparison to what could happen if they don't.  If Ukraine can emerge with less land, but a freer system, without corruption then they too will improve their society.  While that may be an unpopular train of thought here, it will probably preserve lives, and there has been and will be costs to Russia as well, which is reasonable.  There are other potential solutions that involve weapons/war, but in my opinion they probably don't play out well and involve a greater risk to the world.   It goes without saying this is merely my opinion.


GATOR quote:
 [/size]The bottom line is he really has no respect for [/size]others[/size] [/size][/color]my win-win, capitulation opinions, which I repeated only 100 times before realizing that no one else respected them either.   He even referred to me as Neville Chamberlain, yet everyone knows Mendy originated my doppelgänger. [/font]












 













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Offline Muzh

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Ultimately, Ukraine is going to have to capitulate to one degree or another.  If  30 people on a website don't think they should, that won't make a difference.  I continue to hold that the best move is to negotiate and give up some land, as that is not that big a deal in comparison to what could happen if they don't.  If Ukraine can emerge with less land, but a freer system, without corruption then they too will improve their society.  While that may be an unpopular train of thought here, it will probably preserve lives, and there has been and will be costs to Russia as well, which is reasonable.  There are other potential solutions that involve weapons/war, but in my opinion they probably don't play out well and involve a greater risk to the world.   It goes without saying this is merely my opinion.




Not getting in the middle of a spat, however, let's talk about this paragraph's content.


I was watching the VICE video of people returning to Debaltseve and all I heard from the locals was that they were "rescued" and how they long for Russia. One woman was envious of the Crimean people because they were annexed by Russia.


Now, my question. Why would Ukraine want to hold on to this territory which, for obvious reasons, wants to join Russia? You know for a fact what is going to happen if Ukraine holds on to it.


And please don't tell me if they let them ceded that Mariupol is next.


Why not give them the independence they crave and get rid of them like you would with an infected scab?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Boethius

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After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Not getting in the middle of a spat, however, let's talk about this paragraph's content.


I was watching the VICE video of people returning to Debaltseve and all I heard from the locals was that they were "rescued" and how they long for Russia. One woman was envious of the Crimean people because they were annexed by Russia.


Now, my question. Why would Ukraine want to hold on to this territory which, for obvious reasons, wants to join Russia? You know for a fact what is going to happen if Ukraine holds on to it.


And please don't tell me if they let them ceded that Mariupol is next.


Why not give them the independence they crave and get rid of them like you would with an infected scab?


I don't think you are arguing against my point this time.  I agree that land should be ceded to Russia (or made independent) because that is what it is going to take to end this crisis, and I find that more important than a 'whole' Ukraine...and I get the impression many (but not all) Ukrainians are not all that willing to fight about it.    I have been for an 'amputation' for a while.  The remaining part of Ukraine can then move forward if that is what they choose to do.   Just my opinion. 


Fathertime! 






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Offline Boethius

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Your analysis, and therefore, your opinion, is flawed.  The Russians don't want Donbas.  The area wants "independence" with Kyiv paying its bills. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline mendeleyev

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Neville
Quote
Well it remains to be seen regarding the Ukrainian army.

It only remains to be seen for those who have not seen it.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline mendeleyev

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Boethius:
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The Russians don't want Donbas.  The area wants "independence" with Kyiv paying its bills. 

Correct, and they have stated that consistently.

What they do want is possession of anything that will cut off Ukraine from the Black Sea. Putin is convinced that if Ukraine retains even a sliver of coastline, that Ukraine will someday invite NATO to establish a Black Sea base. He will not stop at Donbas. He must have Mariupol and also Odessa. It is also a game of control over Black Sea energy resources.

If he can get those, and effect a change of regime in Kyiv, then he can accomplish the enlargement of the Eurasian Union and then turn his attention to the Baltics.

Left unchecked, he will come, sooner rather than later, for Latvia and Estonia.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 12:43:16 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline fathertime

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Your analysis, and therefore, your opinion, is flawed.  The Russians don't want Donbas.  The area wants "independence" with Kyiv paying its bills.


I think your reading might be flawed as the post accounted for the possibility of the area being independent.


 The second part of your statement regarding Ukraine paying the bills of an 'independent state would be an outrageous demand if true.  I don't think it would be reasonable for Ukraine to have to pay the bills of an area they don't control.  If they went, they would have to fend for themselves or align with a nation that would willingly pay for their upkeep.  Pensioners though may have a case, we have pensioners that live abroad so it may be reasonable to ask that Ukraine continue to pay those people their retirement until they die off.  What do you think?


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Offline mendeleyev

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Neville:
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The second part of your statement regarding Ukraine paying the bills of an 'independent state would be an outrageous demand if true.

Glad to see you say that, for that is exactly what the Kremlin has been saying. Read transcripts around the Minsk-1 and then Minsk-2 agreements. Russia wants the East to be autonomous from Kyiv, yet retain voting rights in Ukrainian elections, and for Kyiv to continue funding the autonomous republics, without the power of taxation.

The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline fathertime

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Neville:
Glad to see you say that, for that is exactly what the Kremlin has been saying. Read transcripts around the Minsk-1 and then Minsk-2 agreements. Russia wants the East to be autonomous from Kyiv, yet retain voting rights in Ukrainian elections, and for Kyiv to continue funding the autonomous republics, without the power of taxation.
Do they have any reasoning to make such a demand?  That is a demand that I would not accept unless there is some genuine mitigating circumstance.  Is there?


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Offline Boethius

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This demonstrates how little you know about what is occurring in Ukraine, FT.  The demand is "do this, or there will be no Minsk 2".
 
BTW, 3 Ukrainian soldiers were killed yesterday, during the "ceasefire".
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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This demonstrates how little you know about what is occurring in Ukraine, FT.  The demand is "do this, or there will be no Minsk 2".


I think this post is mainly made to discredit and deflect.  You did not answer the legit question.   It was YOUR reading that was off on the original post I made on the subject. 
In addition it appears you confusing what is going on AT THE MOMENT, verses what the future demands will be for an independent region, if indeed that is the route taken.  Minsk 2 is not a permanent agreement, but something to move forward with for the moment, until a permanent agreement is reached, from what I can see. 


If indeed for the moment Ukraine is paying the bills of the region, but doesn't continue going forward if it becomes independent,  that seems reasonable enough. 


 Should another country be responsible for the Ukrainian pensioners? Would you like to continue to discuss my 'lack of understanding', or actually talk about the issue itself, for the education of all the members of the website?   ;)


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Offline Boethius

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I am responding to reality rather than some airy fairy notion you have about what could be.
On another note, yet another report on the Russian soldiers who are not in Ukraine.  Parts 1 and 2 -

http://news.vice.com/video/killed-in-unknown-circumstances-russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-1

http://news.vice.com/video/russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-2
 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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I am responding to reality rather than some airy fairy notion you have about what could be.



No.  You are not responding to reality.  You are avoiding real questions, and casting aspersions as a substitute. There is no fairy tales in these posts, although I've read some fairy tales regarding Ukrainian troops marching in formation all the way to Moscow if we give them a few arms.


So who should be responsible for Ukrainian pensioners?  I didn't know that was such a puzzling question for you. I do know it is a legit question.   


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Offline Muzh

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Your analysis, and therefore, your opinion, is flawed.  The Russians don't want Donbas.  The area wants "independence" with Kyiv paying its bills.


Boe, I agree that Putler does not want the Donbass.


My question is: Is there any traction in Ukraine that Kyiv will let them secede, as in bye-bye you are on your own?


If not, why not?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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I think your reading might be flawed as the post accounted for the possibility of the area being independent.


 The second part of your statement regarding Ukraine paying the bills of an 'independent state would be an outrageous demand if true.




It is true. That's what Putler wants.



 I don't think it would be reasonable for Ukraine to have to pay the bills of an area they don't control.  If they went, they would have to fend for themselves or align with a nation that would willingly pay for their upkeep.  Pensioners though may have a case, we have pensioners that live abroad so it may be reasonable to ask that Ukraine continue to pay those people their retirement until they die off.  What do you think?


Fathertime!


I see you are starting to catch on.  ;)
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline BillyB

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Do they have any reasoning to make such a demand? 



Last year you supported more autonomy for east Ukraine. What the east wanted last year is no different than what they're asking for this year. They'll be able to live the way they/Putin wants and still be able to vote in Ukrainian elections. Russia will get the best out their autonomy while Ukraine gets the worst.


That is a demand that I would not accept unless there is some genuine mitigating circumstance.  Is there?



The current circumstance is Ukraine has a gun to their head so the choice is basically living or dying. People can only hope Putin will stop destabilizing Ukraine after Donetsk and Luhansk is granted autonomy.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Boe, I agree that Putler does not want the Donbass.


My question is: Is there any traction in Ukraine that Kyiv will let them secede, as in bye-bye you are on your own?


If not, why not?

I get the sense from Central and Western Ukraine that they would not have a problem with Donbas ceding if the war stopped.  But the problem is, they won't stop fighting.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Muzh

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The current circumstance is Ukraine has a gun to their head so the choice is basically living or dying. People can only hope Putin will stop destabilizing Ukraine after Donetsk and Luhansk is granted autonomy.


I'm sorry but this is why I was asking.


What if Ukraine cede these two "Republics" all the way for them to be totally detached from Ukraine, where is the gun to the head?


Isn't that what Putler was defending? The right of Soviet Russian citizens?



Well, there is his wish, you got your Russians and the track of forgotten land.


How can Putler justify going after Mariupol and Odessa after this unless declaring (an open) war on Ukraine?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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