Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon

[Muzh]

They are their as Volunteers...  I will not disagree with that... that is 100% true..

Darth, you are giving a fellow Socialist a heartburn.


Bullshevik on the volunteer BS. Don't be dumb.


P.S. I also voted for Hawkins.

[lordtiberius]

Darth, you are giving a fellow Socialist a heartburn.

like I said, a socialist and a communist vary only in degrees, respect to DB for telling us who he really is

[Darth_Budda]

Darth, you are giving a fellow Socialist a heartburn.


Bullshevik on the volunteer BS. Don't be dumb.


P.S. I also voted for Hawkins.

It was a issue many on the left argue about... 

The Official stance was to condemn NATO expansion AND Russian expansion in Ukraine.

In no way do I speak for anyone but me...

[mendeleyev]

Fair enough,,, Than Pick out the American in that Photo I posted.... To Prove your Expertise....

Give me 60 seconds with that group and I'll come up with a very close answer on each man there. The American would be the easiest to spot.

Have you ever been to Eastern Ukraine? I have lived in the region for years and they can spot me as a foreigner within a minute or so. There are ingrained mannerisms that we acquire in childhood that take decades to evolve.

[Muzh]

It was a issue many on the left argue about... 

Boy, do I know that. However, many of these leftist friends are still under the impression that Russia has anything to do with Socialism or Communism. As if trying to re-live some old romantic feeling. I have set some of these guys straight by providing some information regarding the fascist views in Russia. I let them make up their minds after that.


Believe it or not, many of these guys don't know much of the real situation in the former Soyuz.

The Official stance was to condemn NATO expansion AND Russian expansion in Ukraine.

Heh, I know. The boogeyman. It is such a joke. NATO, that is.

[Muzh]

Give me 60 seconds with that group and I'll come up with a very close answer on each man there. The American would be the easiest to spot.

Have you ever been to Eastern Ukraine? I have lived in the region for years and they can spot me as a foreigner within a minute or so. There are ingrained mannerisms that we acquire in childhood that take decades to evolve.

Mendy, a good friend is of Ukrainian parents. Born and raised here in upstate NY. The first time I went to Ukraine, I saw (not exaggerating) at least 5 clones of this guy.

[Brasscasing]

Guess which are Americans and Which are Ukrainians and Which are Russians?

I don't want to turn this into a game but at a glance there are two, possible three candidates for the American(s) based on clothing items and in one instance deportment (how he's holding his weapon)

Second row, second from the left as facing; Tan Desert Boots - Possibly western/US issue.

Second row, forth from the left as facing; deportment suggests western trained weapons training.

Second row 5th man from the left as facing; deportment suggests western weapons training and western or US military issue combat gloves.

Again, just noticed at a glance and in no way conclusive.

Brass

[mendeleyev]

Darth, dress tells a lot, although it is not 100% foolproof.

Many of these I'd immediately suspect as "home grown" given their sloppy manner of dress. Brass, correct me if wrong, but eight of these guys, the better dressed, appear to be wearing camo issued from stock used during Soviet times. It is new material, but using the old Soviet camo pattern. This was the standard uniform supplied to the DNR by Russia when fighting first broke out.

At the outbreak of hostilities it was really easy then who was DNR and who was recently sent in from Russia. First, Russia needed a secure and trusted force to start the fighting, and their guys wear camo from the newer design that was supposedly stolen from the Finns. You can also tell by their demeanor, and how they hold weapons. In fact, the way guys hold weapons is a direct reflection of their level of training, and where they trained. That is a really quick way to tell the pros from the amateurs in any such group.

Below are photos taken from the very early days of fighting in Donetsk region. The two on the right are "volunteer" pros, Russian troops sent there to secure regional administrative buildings just taken over by the "rebels." One dead giveaway is that they are wearing camo from newer style Russian stock, available only from the military itself. Pay attention to how they hold weapons. Finally, while insignia has been removed, there is another clue. Do you know what it is? (Pretty dang obvious, by the way.)

The second photo, also taken around Donetsk around the earliest days of fighting, just screams professional Russian. Can you tell why? In addition to the other clues, do you have any idea about the stock of a SVD-S?

Another dead giveaway is in regards to tanks. Both the rebels and Ukraine use many older style tanks from the Soviet era. However both have newer, although the Russians introduced their latest version in the final push on the Donetsk airport. First, the newer Russian tanks are driven almost exclusively by professional soldiers, never by the home boys. I guess the principle is that you don't give the key to a Mercedes to your teenager.

Even if you don't know much about tank models (me either), there is one easy giveaway: If you need to know quickly whether a tank is Russian, rebel or Ukrainian, look at the guns. Russian battle order is that tanks remain muzzled even on patrol, until firing ready. The Ukrainian military does not share this order of battle, and the coal-miners-turned-rebel-fighters are the most reckless of the bunch.

Finally, if approached by someone in uniform, look at the boots. The volunteers are often in dark tennis shoes or simple hiking shoes. The pros have the footwear to match.

[Darth_Budda]

I don't want to turn this into a game but at a glance there are two, possible three candidates for the American(s) based on clothing items and in one instance deportment (how he's holding his weapon)

Second row, second from the left as facing; Tan Desert Boots - Possibly western/US issue.

Second row, forth from the left as facing; deportment suggests western trained weapons training.

Second row 5th man from the left as facing; deportment suggests western weapons training and western or US military issue combat gloves.

Again, just noticed at a glance and in no way conclusive.

Brass

Second Row all the way Left... Holding his gun with the butt on the hip....

[mendeleyev]

Not surprising. He is heavier than the others for starters. Also the glance from the person behind him.

[Darth_Budda]

From the Separatist FB page it would seem they are trying to get folks in western Ukraine to march on Kiev...
I wounder when and if that will happen.. It seems like a real possibility...

[Brasscasing]

Second Row all the way Left... Holding his gun with the butt on the hip....

Ah. I initially dismissed him as a candidate based on what he was wearing.

Looks like he's gone native. 

Brass

Edit: He has a larger physical stature than the rest for sure, Mendy.

[mendeleyev]

Durth, check out the emblem at the upper right of the screen. That TV network is dedicated solely to the establishment of "Novo" (new) Russia. It is funded by the Rebels--the same ones who claim that they can't afford electricity without funds from Kyiv. They'd be shot on sight if they ventured to interview Ukrainian soldiers.

[Darth_Budda]

I am sure they found it on youtube and rebroadcasted it..


But anyways the point is This was Taken from a pro separatists facebook account..

It is interesting to look at the propaganda trends on both sides.... 
What is interesting to me is their push to try to get Kiev to revolt against the oligarchs...

It's not what they are saying,, it's What they are saying...

[lordtiberius]

These Dartha Budda threads are stupid

[Gator]

DUDE!!!


Attack the message, not the messenger you always say.

I am all out of patience.  I attempted a soft explanation with another before Darth and it got nowhere.  And this guy is even more idealistic naïve.   

If you have the patience to educate someone who believes Anastasia Date women were really interested in him,  and nationalization of large corporations is good for America, and subscribes to the opinion of a specious voice from the Internet in opposition to the positions taken by most heads of state of G20 Western governments, and believes Ukraine would be better led by some apolitical electrical engineer rather than Poroshenko, and .... then please knock yourself out. 

Maybe I am missing the point of discussion boards.  I certainly would have walked away from this guy at a social gathering. 

[Boethius]

It was a issue many on the left argue about... 

The Official stance was to condemn NATO expansion AND Russian expansion in Ukraine.

In no way do I speak for anyone but me...

But NATO never expanded into Ukraine. 

[Darth_Budda]

But NATO never expanded into Ukraine.

WE want to keep it that way. In fact we would like to see NATO disbanded as a relic of the cold war.

[mendeleyev]

WE would like to see Communism recognized for the idiocy that it is, and burned at the stake.

[calmissile]

WE would like to see Communism recognized for the idiocy that it is, and burned at the stake.

+100

[lordtiberius]

WE would like to see Communism recognized for the idiocy that it is, and burned at the stake.

Then why are we entertaining this young man?  Why are letting him set the agenda and speak on topics he chooses?  Why do we accept his premises as true when they are false?  Why do we ignore what we know to be true when he has ignored it? 

This is the riddle of every tyrant.  This is how the tyrant inserts his tyranny into our minds and hearts until we crown him with that crown.  Having done that we ape and wonder who put this beast on this lofty thrown?

Was it Charles de Gaulle who said that the more he learns about man, the more he loves dogs?  He said of the French,  how futile his words and labors where in obstructing them from running back to feast on their own vomit.  He said he cannot stop the French from being French.  Do not debate this man.  You know what to do with him.  So do it.

[Steamer]

I am all out of patience.
If you have the patience to educate someone who believes Anastasia Date women were really interested in him,  and nationalization of large corporations is good for America, and subscribes to the opinion of a specious voice from the Internet in opposition to the positions taken by most heads of state of G20 Western governments, and believes Ukraine would be better led by some apolitical electrical engineer rather than Poroshenko, and .... then please knock yourself out. 

Maybe I am missing the point of discussion boards.  I certainly would have walked away from this guy at a social gathering.

Tell me, what is the point of discussion boards? Is it to discuss different opinions or to brow beat people into agreeing with your opinion? Since when is your opinion the only right one?

[AC]

WE want to keep it that way. In fact we would like to see NATO disbanded as a relic of the cold war.

Keep dreaming.  Because of Putin's illegal and immoral actions in Ukraine, NATO will eventually emerge stronger then ever.

[sleepycat]

In fact we would like to see NATO Putin disbanded disembowed as a relic of the cold war.

That sounds better now doesn't it? 

[AC]

Tell me, what is the point of discussion boards? Is it to discuss different opinions or to brow beat people into agreeing with your opinion? Since when is your opinion the only right one?

Nobody here is under that false illusion.  We know that nobody in the pro-Putin bunch will ever change their minds.  I think it's just that people are weary of the arrogant bold faced lies.

You once admitted that Russia did not try to attract people the right way (by having a strong economy).  So you and I agree on that one small thing.

You also seem to want the bloodshed to end.  I also do but realize it will get worse before it gets better.  I also realize that Ukraine is mostly united against Russian aggression and they are willing to fight for the sovereignty of their land, which is half the reason the bloodshed will not end.  The other half of course is that V. Putin has broken both Minsk peace accords and he has no intention of pulling his troops and war material out of E. Ukraine.