Putin prefers Donetsk, Ukraine as frozen conflict, not for Russia to annex

[jone]

Becaue I know where they come from, and how they were recruited.

When I was growing up, in grade school, one of the kids wet his pants.  It ran down his leg all over the floor.  When the teacher asked what had happened, he said he didn't know what she was talking about and then, to punctuate that he didn't know what she was talking about, he stepped right in the middle of the puddle he had created.

Since that time, we all have laughed at people who step right in the middle of a big mess they have made.  Or, in this case, an assertion (go for your dictionaries) which is then backed up with the words "because I know". 

Shadow, it is highly unlikely that Putin did not direct the infiltration of Ukraine just as he did in Crimea and Chechnya.   Your blandishment that you 'know' is about as believable as most of Putin's statements.   Once again, you've made a sweeping statement that no one here believes, and we'd like you to provide your evidence.

I have no dog in the hunt.  I just called 'bullshevik' when I saw it.

[fathertime]

I have no dog in the hunt.  I just called 'bullshevik' when I saw it.

I call "Bullshevik"!


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

It is the stupid   pr...  brain that needs fixing.

...and you are going to 'fix' his brain with YOUR propaganda or Australian US bombs?  It appears to me that Shadow is defending the  positions he has taken quite well....unlike you 


Fathertime! 

[Shadow]

When I was growing up, in grade school, one of the kids wet his pants.  It ran down his leg all over the floor.  When the teacher asked what had happened, he said he didn't know what she was talking about and then, to punctuate that he didn't know what she was talking about, he stepped right in the middle of the puddle he had created.

Since that time, we all have laughed at people who step right in the middle of a big mess they have made.  Or, in this case, an assertion (go for your dictionaries) which is then backed up with the words "because I know". 

Shadow, it is highly unlikely that Putin did not direct the infiltration of Ukraine just as he did in Crimea and Chechnya.   Your blandishment that you 'know' is about as believable as most of Putin's statements.   Once again, you've made a sweeping statement that no one here believes, and we'd like you to provide your evidence.

I have no dog in the hunt.  I just called 'bullshevik' when I saw it.

As much as you can try, I can not change my knowledge. Having a good memory does that to people.
The knowledge comes not from any media, but from direct contact with the people who were proudly telling from where they received offers from people supporting them.
The same people who openly told that they were disappointed Putin did not support them as he promised to do.
Now if Putin were directing these people, why would they make statements against him? Especially as they had no idea to be talking to a foreigner, so no need for a political statement.

[jone]

Think what you want.  I haven't posted here for three months.   And any time I have posted has not been on the topic of Eastern Ukraine.  But I was reading a statement that stood out as ludicrous.  Quite honestly, FT, don't you think that the infiltration of admitted GRU employees and former employees couldn't happen without the permissions of the government?  The insurgents have been there too long not to know their identities and, because of that, they are no longer even trying to disguise themselves.  Moreover, the equipment being captured has been authenticated as coming directly from Russian stockpiles.  Or is that some figment of my imagination, as well? 

At this point in time, I'll revert to my hole in the wall and you can go on doing what you do.

[Shadow]

.  Moreover, the equipment being captured has been authenticated as coming directly from Russian stockpiles.  Or is that some figment of my imagination, as well? 

Authenticated by whom?

[jone]

As much as you can try, I can not change my knowledge. Having a good memory does that to people.
The knowledge comes not from any media, but from direct contact with the people who were proudly telling from where they received offers from people supporting them.
The same people who openly told that they were disappointed Putin did not support them as he promised to do.
Now if Putin were directing these people, why would they make statements against him? Especially as they had no idea to be talking to a foreigner, so no need for a political statement.

Simples.  Putin stepped on his crank and now is trying to cover it up.   I can imagine that the people who were originally sent to Ukraine are now feeling like they are left out in the cold by Putin's machinations.  The ones who came later might have been solicited by people other than the government.  But the original combatants were all hard core Russian shock troops.  When you are making assertions, and you make a broad generalization, you're going to be called on it.

Once again, here was your assertion:

"No tourists, volunteers to support the Ukrainians. There are about 1000 at least that I know about. None of them was sent by Putin."

Now you can call a shock troop a volunteer, but of the people that they are sending back to Russia in body bags, many are military.  And if I were an insurgent, I would be pissed at Putin too.  Think JFK and the Bay of Pigs.

[jone]

Authenticated by whom?

Oh, you must have missed all of those pictures with the inventory lists.   Russia isn't even denying it. 

[Shadow]

Oh, you must have missed all of those pictures with the inventory lists.   Russia isn't even denying it.

I am asking who authenticated them as Russian stockpile, and from which stocks were they taken.

[Shadow]

Simples.  Putin stepped on his crank and now is trying to cover it up.   I can imagine that the people who were originally sent to Ukraine are now feeling like they are left out in the cold by Putin's machinations.  The ones who came later might have been solicited by people other than the government.  But the original combatants were all hard core Russian shock troops.  When you are making assertions, and you make a broad generalization, you're going to be called on it.

Once again, here was your assertion:

"No tourists, volunteers to support the Ukrainians. There are about 1000 at least that I know about. None of them was sent by Putin."

Now you can call a shock troop a volunteer, but of the people that they are sending back to Russia in body bags, many are military.  And if I were an insurgent, I would be pissed at Putin too.  Think JFK and the Bay of Pigs.

I am not talking about now, I am talking about right after Crimea beame part of Russa.

[fathertime]

Think what you want. 
 

Of course I will...obviously I'm not going to think what YOU want!

  Quite honestly, FT, don't you think that the infiltration of admitted GRU employees and former employees couldn't happen without the permissions of the government?  The insurgents have been there too long not to know their identities and, because of that, they are no longer even trying to disguise themselves.  Moreover, the equipment being captured has been authenticated as coming directly from Russian stockpiles.  Or is that some figment of my imagination, as well? 
 

I don't see an invasion of Ukraine by Russia...could they be looking the other way?...or providing arms to outgunned rebels?...yes it seems very possible...still not the USA's issue to deal with...it appears there are a lot of people within Ukraine that are asking for assistance and Russia has a history with people in the region so if they decide to not let them get shot dead without a fight, that is a choice they are making...Ukraine/Russia can sort it out and they will without us escalating it for our own self-interests. 


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

Of course I will...obviously I'm not going to think what YOU want!

It's a bit childish.  This kind of language does not help the exchange of ideas.

I don't see an invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

Many people on this forum disagree with you and your refusal to acknowledge facts is also not helpful.

..could they be looking the other way?...or providing arms to outgunned rebels?...yes it seems very possible

It is ok for Russia to encourage and start this war, but not ok for Ukraine and others to defend itself?

....still not the USA's issue to deal with

Budapest Memorandum?

....it appears there are a lot of people within Ukraine that are asking for assistance and Russia has a history with people in the region

I would hardly call 3 or 4 people 'a lot of people' but I am unusual in that way.  Also who are they trying to save at this point?  Most of the people have left the Donbass

 

.so if they decide to not let them get shot dead without a fight, that is a choice they are making...Ukraine/Russia can sort it out and they will without us escalating it for our own self-interests. 

The war is going horrible for Putin and if it continues to go south, certainly Putin should leave Ukraine and not bring more troops in.  Also why is it ok for Putin to invade Crimea and not seize the rest of Ukraine?

[fathertime]

It's a bit childish.  This kind of language does not help the exchange of ideas.

It is a bit childish that YOU are labeling ANYTHING childish...given the parade of half naked men you keep posting here....go ahead exchange an idea if you can find an original one. 

Many people on this forum disagree with you and your refusal to acknowledge facts is also not helpful.
 

As already mentioned...what you call a fact many others call a bunch of bull.

It is ok for Russia to encourage and start this war, but not ok for Ukraine and others to defend itself?

 

That is what YOU are saying, you are making things up if you attribute that to me.

I would hardly call 3 or 4 people 'a lot of people' but I am unusual in that way.  Also who are they trying to save at this point?  Most of the people have left the Donbass

If you think the rebellion consists of 3-4 people then your brain isn't functioning properly...not my problem!

Budapest Memorandum?

What about it?  Nobody here in the states CARES about it.

 The war is going horrible for Putin and if it continues to go south, certainly Putin should leave Ukraine and not bring more troops in.  Also why is it ok for Putin to invade Crimea and not seize the rest of Ukraine?

I don't think "Putin" is engaging in a war at this point.  He took Crimea which I continue to maintain was his primary if not only main objective.  That has gone well for Russia, as the sanctions were pretty much meaningless and it appears Europe is cozying up to Russia if anything....Your hopes that things will go horrible for Russia are not going to make it happen...most of the American people doesn't want involvement of any sort...and your buddy Obama is listening.


 If an individual feels SO strongly about going to war and enlisting other people's children to do it for him, but refuses to go take care of business what does that make him?  I say put in your own work!   


Fathertime! 

[Muzh]

I have no hatred for anything American. You are confusing criticism with hatred, probably mirroring your own hatred of Russia.

LMFAO


I criticize America because that's what liberals do. I criticize the government and political institutions AND offer alternatives hoping for a change for the better.


However, from here what you and Stuart do looks more like jealousy or enviousness.


But, to each his own.


Not everybody can be an exceptional American.

[Muzh]

You feel that those people who were born and raised in Ukraine are not Ukrainians?
And please stop with bleating ptopaganda, try to keep it a discussion without insults.

Have you actually heard those people who were "born and raised" in Ukraine refer to Ukraine?


Because I have. At the beginning I was perplexed. Naive maybe?


As I learned more about Eastern Ukraine and SOME of its "citizens" then it dawned on me what was happening.


I remember once seeing my MIL red as a beet screaming at a "neighbor"

[Shadow]

LMFAO


I criticize America because that's what liberals do. I criticize the government and political institutions AND offer alternatives hoping for a change for the better.


However, from here what you and Stuart do looks more like jealousy or enviousness.


But, to each his own.


Not everybody can be an exceptional American.

The problem is that Americans see their own critical view as normal, however when a non-American dares to utter any critical word they immediately go defensive and start patriottic songs about how they save the world and any critic must be hating them.
For Dutch that is rather odd to see. If a foreigner criticizes our country (and it is prety easy to find something) we often agree in opinion and do not feel the need to label the foreigner as a hater of our nation.

[Shadow]

Have you actually heard those people who were "born and raised" in Ukraine refer to Ukraine?


Because I have. At the beginning I was perplexed. Naive maybe?


As I learned more about Eastern Ukraine and SOME of its "citizens" then it dawned on me what was happening.


I remember once seeing my MIL red as a beet screaming at a "neighbor"

This is what Stalin would have suggested.

[Muzh]

Becaue I know where they come from, and how they were recruited.

Ooops, a spook. 

[Muzh]

The problem is that Americans see their own critical view as normal, however when a non-American dares to utter any critical word they immediately go defensive and start patriottic songs about how they save the world and any critic must be hating them.
For Dutch that is rather odd to see. If a foreigner criticizes our country (and it is prety easy to find something) we often agree in opinion and do not feel the need to label the foreigner as a hater of our nation.

Okay, fair enough.


So you deal with a few not-so-educated people from this country.


I'm assuming everyone in Europe has a PhD, correct? So it must be infuriating trying to reason with the few uneducated people from the rest of the world, right?


That must explain how you KNOW who and where were all the Russian tourists recruited. And that Putin never invaded Ukraine nor that he had anything to do with Russian forces in Ukraine, correct?


BTW, my 11 yo son was diagnosed with an IQ of 154. It is a royal pain sometimes talking to him because he is so literal and exact. So I asked him to look at some of the pictures of the tourists and he agreed with you, none of them were Putin [hoila].

[Mod3]

On request of the mods moved back. Please keep it civil so it will remain here.
Remember this section is more strongly moderated than NHB.

[Shadow]

Okay, fair enough.


So you deal with a few not-so-educated people from this country.


I'm assuming everyone in Europe has a PhD, correct? So it must be infuriating trying to reason with the few uneducated people from the rest of the world, right?


That must explain how you KNOW who and where were all the Russian tourists recruited. And that Putin never invaded Ukraine nor that he had anything to do with Russian forces in Ukraine, correct?


BTW, my 11 yo son was diagnosed with an IQ of 154. It is a royal pain sometimes talking to him because he is so literal and exact. So I asked him to look at some of the pictures of the tourists and he agreed with you, none of them were Putin [hoila].

I do not know why you would say this. The attitude has nothing to do with education.
As for my knowledge, if you would spend the time to read what I write the answer should be known.
Tell your son I know exactly how he feels.

[Muzh]

Think what you want.  I haven't posted here for three months.   And any time I have posted has not been on the topic of Eastern Ukraine.  But I was reading a statement that stood out as ludicrous.  Quite honestly, FT, don't you think that the infiltration of admitted GRU employees and former employees couldn't happen without the permissions of the government?  The insurgents have been there too long not to know their identities and, because of that, they are no longer even trying to disguise themselves.  Moreover, the equipment being captured has been authenticated as coming directly from Russian stockpiles.  Or is that some figment of my imagination, as well? 

At this point in time, I'll revert to my hole in the wall and you can go on doing what you do.

Heh, I guess they have never heard of the power vertical.

[Muzh]

I do not know why you would say this. The attitude has nothing to do with education.
As for my knowledge, if you would spend the time to read what I write the answer should be known.
Tell your son I know exactly how he feels.

Strange because my son understood everything that I said. 

[Shadow]

Strange because my son understood everything that I said. 

Understanding does not mean agreeing

[Muzh]

Understanding does not mean agreeing

As you may know, he agrees with everything I say. I'm his hero. Don't you know that?