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Author Topic: Antiques in Russia  (Read 112870 times)

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Offline Gtex

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2008, 06:39:32 AM »
OOOOPs:
Not sure what "NOPE" means, but I can only give you details of my personal experience.   I have shipped both art and artifact out of the country 4 different ways.  Personally carried by air and rail, air frieght to accompany me on leaving, DHL services and Russian Post (water).
This is not to say other people may not have had difficulties.  I use good lawyers and export brokers and am careful not to do anything to cause questions.  The 100 year rule is specific law and  often quoted in better guidebooks.
Still, this is Russia... UMMV!

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2008, 06:45:37 AM »
OOOOPs:
Not sure what "NOPE" means...

Anything older than 1960 needs special permission to leave Russia.   Icons and other art is even stricter than that.   

Offline Wienerin

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2008, 07:05:56 AM »
Wow Wienerin,

You are the person who can tell a lot about the topic.

I can talk a lot, it's true - you could have easily noticed this already ;) But as to "antiques" for the most part my perception of what this means varies widely from most of the Americans... Even in this thread you could see the range of what is considered an antique. For me everything after 1910s is collectable, curiosity, vintage, but not an antique. Not to mention that lots of stuff below this cut-off date is simply trash too. :) As my Mama used to say - at any time there are more bad artisans than good ones ;)

Quote
With his slight exaggeration, Gator probably meant that antiques tend to became harder to find, as their quantity obviously does not grow with ages. As the time goes and the number of antiques stays the same, one should spend more and more time and efforts in order to locate something valuable.

Sure, this goes without saying that the number of old things by definition can't increase. If you search for some precise period things you could notice other reasons why these are rare or rarely in a good condition. For example true Louis XV furniture is worth its weight in gold - it was made our of birch and linden and heavily coated with white and gold paint. The combination didn't wear well. You can find chairs (which were the first to come apart for obvious reasons) much older in much better shape than true LouisXV or even than neo-rococo revival of the end of the XIX c.

The difficulty also comes when you hunt for sets or pieces of similar design. Also if you want original, not modified or clumsily restored pieces. For example, most of the chair before 1860s didn't have springs - horsehair or sea grass only. But many were modified even in the XIX c when reupholstered for modern comfort;)

It's good to know your subject - and not to strive to be an expert in everything. I have very slight understanding of brass and silver, porcelain, rugs, textiles, etc.- only as much as I need in pursueing my main passion - furniture. Roughly you need to know three things: your period, what can or cannot be, and what can or cannot be restored.

Knowledge of some simple restoration techniques - i.e. what you can do yourself will save you literally thousands. Most people with money who are going now after the antiques want spectacular pieces in perfect condition. These command astronomical prices, of course. Very good and even better piece could be bought for a modest sum if it doesn't look so good - but some stripping, refinishing, shellac application, etc. will cost you almost nothing.

Quote
In order to buy a piece of antique art, one should first find the owner who would be willing to part with it. The demand increases, people get more knowledgeable about the thing, so the prices escalate as well with the antiques becaming more rare.

I wouldn't say that people are becoming more knowledgable. This is not my experience at all. And to say that the prices do nothing but escalate... see, there is a great influence of fashion, etc. on the antique market. Look for example on what I wrote about people simply throwing away shabby "Granny's stuff" or what you and others (I also) have observed about RW attitude to antique furnishings as old trash.


Offline Wienerin

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Re: RE: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2008, 07:42:24 AM »
Wienerin,

With such words you identify yourself as someone who truly understands and appreciates antiques...not just the decorative arts aspects, but their history, the story they have to tell, and their warmth from years of care - they indeed have a heart compared to new stuff. 

Nevertheless, I never encountered another RW with your sentiments.  Perhaps there are more like you in St. Piter because it is so different from Moscow.

Thank you :) Yes, a piece of wood which has been touched and lovingly cared for by
generations of long-gone hand - speaks straight to the soul  :-* As we wax and polish, say, our secretaries-bookcases - I feel myself a link in the chain going back 150 years, from the cabinetmaker who lovingly crafted them to the women who bought them and cared for them, took pride in them as I do :)

And when I set the table with my beloved Asiatic Pheasants - also 100+ years old - the mood is lighter, the food tastes better and life is beautiful!

BTW there is more to this AP pattern than just its beauty. We had at home great-grandmother's dinner set in this pattern. To me it meant HOME - family meals, festive occasions, etc. I couldn't take this out of the country and was resigned to its loss, same to evrything else. But in a small store - more of a second-hand than an antique one, I saw a teapot of the same pattern and learned the name of it.

The teapot wasn't as beautiful as I remembered my pieces, and $35 they asked for it was a pretty big sum for us then (it was only 3-4 months that we came to Chicago), but it jolted me into thinking that maybe that life was not lost forever. I started looking on the web, in the antique shops and fairs - and now I have even more than there was at home. Only the soup tureen still eludes me, but I'll survive :)

Offline Gtex

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2008, 08:00:59 AM »
OOOOPs;

Please tell me how you had a problem, it might save me trouble in the future.  As I said "Your Mileage May Vary."  I take it you were stopped when actually trying to take something out of the country?  I can only relate my experience of actually doing it 40 to 50 times in the four different ways mentioned, after following all requirements and never having a problem.  

This quote, from "St. Petersburg; The Official City Guide" is from issue #2(17), page 55, left column, mid page under heading "The Customs," to wit: "It is not allowed to export from Russia any pieces of art and antiques produced before 1945.  The export of works of art such as painting, graphics, sculpture, decorative and applied art produced after 1945 needs special authorization from the Commission of Experts for the Control over the Export and Import of Items of Cultural Value, irrespective of the form of their acquisition."

I have spent much time, with attorneys and translators and other local dealers at the above mentioned office (107 Griboedova Kanala nab.).  It was here I was told the general 100 year rule was applied to most items unless considered culturally valuable to the state.  

Their idea of that and mine was different (often).  I was concerned about removing certain lithographs and "Luboks"  nearly 100 years old that I thought would be considered important, they were not.  The office seems to not be so much interested in what something is or the aesthetic value, as they are looking for high price tags or famous names.  

I was even alllowed "without surcharge or further tax" to export a Lomonosov Avant-Garde agitprop plate of 1925 (by Nikolai Suyetin) depicting the "Decabrists."
It would be of value to me to know what kind of problems you have experienced with export and see the exact source for your above info on the restrictions you cited.  

Still, I do not doubt the potential for problems and that is why I am careful.  In this country, one IRS officer may tell you to do something which another later overrides.  They are not liable, as they are not legally responsible for any advice given that may later be determined as wrong.  In FSU, it is more about grease (IMHO).
Wienerin's comment about age is generally correct.  Technically, antique for many items begins at 50 years, for most in Russia it means the Imperial period ending with the advent of the Soviets.  My specialty is first half of the 20th century.  Also, what his Mama said is right.  Beauty may lie in the eye of the beholder, but is equally in the hand of the performer.  

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2008, 09:41:55 AM »
OOOOPs;

Please tell me how you had a problem, it might save me trouble in the future. 

We were trying to get "samovar' with lots of stamps "made in 1904" out of Moscow and failed.   Good thing that our friend was seeing us off, so we didn't have to surrender that samovar to custom offisers.   Now my Dad makes tea in that antique thing at his dacha.     :D

Offline Gtex

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2008, 09:50:37 AM »
OOOOOP's
Thanks for the clarification.  Airport personel are not as knowledgeable as the office I referred to upstream and they are more interested in the "grease." This has been my personal experience.
Still, if you had the proper documentation at the time from the office I mentioned, I doubt you would have had a problem.  Their "stamps" trump most troubles on exiting the country. 
What about the reference to 1960; where does that come from?

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2008, 08:03:48 PM »
What about the reference to 1960; where does that come from?

I don't remember to tell you the truth.   Sorry.   :-[

Offline Lily

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2008, 09:15:11 PM »
Dears, I think I provided some information on legal regulation about antiques and export from Russia in this thread earlier, didn't I?



Nevertheless, I never encountered another RW with your sentiments.  Perhaps there are more like you in St. Piter because it is so different from Moscow.

Gator, there are indeed RW with similar feelings. I used to know some. Mostly that sentiments reveal a person from a good home, mostly an intellectual one. There might be the case that they are shy to make an online profile, and it takes them not easy to openly declare that they want a good man to love :)


The usual FSU native has a view more reflecting (often) the woman (former fiancee) in the "Starting Over" thread.  Antiques=used!
 

Gtex, to me that attitude described by you reveals a woman with whom I probably would not want to make friends. I'd say that would be not 'the usual FSU native', but the person who comes from somehow less than a good home, and missed a lot in her early life.
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Offline Wienerin

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2008, 07:38:51 AM »
Dears, I think I provided some information on legal regulation about antiques and export from Russia in this thread earlier, didn't I?

As I remember from my and some of my friends' and relatives' struggles with Russian customs regulations - eberything older than from 1945 is regarded as an antique and "national heritage" not allowed for exportation. However if it's something not distinguished or rare (or whatever - the judgement WOULD be rather cavalier) it could be possible to get a permission to take it out of the country. The task is pretty daunting given Russian bureaucracy - but if it's something very dear to you it's still possible.

Also one can try to be bold and brazen about it - only have somebody accompanying you so if the items are examined and prohibited you could hand them back - not abandon at the customs. My Mama brought beautiful  Bohemian crystal glasses and some antigue porcelain and brick-a-brack - nobody ever gave these a glance.

With the younger items we enter a grey area. They may prohibit a garish daub by your school friend or bought at one of the art-fairs, and allow a very nice and costly piece of art go. The lists of objects wich you may or may not take out of the country, with official permit or not wjatsoever is miles long and it really takes an expert to navigate these waters - or luck, or whatever... Thing like Soviet Beatles record are not generally on the antique list however  :D 1920 plate on the other hand - is, but not every customs officer would be able to recognize it for what it is.

 

Offline Wienerin

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2008, 08:20:13 AM »

Gator, there are indeed RW with similar feelings. I used to know some. Mostly that sentiments reveal a person from a good home, mostly an intellectual one. There might be the case that they are shy to make an online profile, and it takes them not easy to openly declare that they want a good man to love :)

I beg to - most respectfully - disagree with this sweeping generalization. And I most vehemently object to any connection of the love to antiques to family values, shyness or otherwise and looking for a husband on the internet  :P

Try to remember that Russia - as in Russian Empire and USSR (that is Urkraine, Belarus. etc. too) in the last century went through 5 major upheavals (specially in the European part) - 3 wars and 2 (or 3 - if you consider also the whole perestroika business) with destruction of homes, property, traditional values - and huge masses of people migrating all over the place, voluntarily or not.

So having been born and brought up in a home full of antiques and memories is more the luck of the draw. For the most people were not that fortunate. BTW none of my "ancestral homes" existed by the time I was born - with most of the family possessions and heirlooms gone.

Then the thing I mentioned already - simply poverty and terrible lack of goods, which on the one hand tended to preserve old household stuff (since there was nothing to replace it), but on the other hand put a higher premium on the chance and/or the ability to get new things. So modern, fashionable and even more so imported goods became a measure of a person's standing, prestige. Not very commendable, maybe, but that's life, that's what and how it happened.

The other - more subtle reason was that for the most of the time in Soviet Empire if wasn't very prudent to dwell on one's roots, ancestors, geirlooms, etc. ;)

Quote
Gtex, to me that attitude described by you reveals a woman with whom I probably would not want to make friends. I'd say that would be not 'the usual FSU native', but the person who comes from somehow less than a good home, and missed a lot in her early life.

Uh-oH! How so? How can such a smart person as you judge and so harshly someone (including her family and upbringing too) on the basis of no love for antiques? And, sorry, in my experience it is a usual FSU attitude - even in my beloved SPb, and even among many bred and born there.

BTW I didn't notice any crowds of American antique lovers in this thread ;) And also what many people here, in the U.S. think of as antiques to my mind would be old trash, sorry :( I wouldn't be terribly thrilled - as some of Russian brides revealed - brought to live in a home of someone who is an avid collector of Coca-Cola bottles and ads or antique fishing tackle - with the house chock full of these highly desirable objects and the guy hunting for more ;) Iron bedsteads of the 1910s vintage also do not excite me as they probably should as well as other rickety furniture which was cheap junk of poor workmanship in its maiden years and now is all the more depressing and awful.

Offline Lily

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2008, 10:05:37 AM »
Wienerin, I admit I have been really less than fair with my words. Nevertheless, it has been my experience, probably memories from my childhood where lovers of oldtimers were loved by me, and those who thought it's just ugly old garbage were seldom among my loved ones. There were exceptions, however.

My apologies if my words were offensive to anyone.
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Offline Gator

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2008, 12:57:11 PM »
And also what many people here, in the U.S. think of as antiques to my mind would be old trash, sorry :( I wouldn't be terribly thrilled - as some of Russian brides revealed - brought to live in a home of someone who is an avid collector of Coca-Cola bottles and ads or antique fishing tackle - with the house chock full of these highly desirable objects and the guy hunting for more ;) Iron bedsteads of the 1910s vintage also do not excite me as they probably should as well as other rickety furniture which was cheap junk of poor workmanship in its maiden years and now is all the more depressing and awful.

What you describe are collectibles, not antiques.   If collecting such is a joyful hobby to someone, I accept it as their personal choice.  However, collectibles do not interest me because they lack what I described much earlier.  Collecting real 200-yo antiques is an expensive hobby with many pitfalls.   A person needs to educate himself/herself far more than if his/her hobby were collecting baseball cards or fountain pens. 

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2008, 12:09:10 PM »
Hello all.

Here is a question that I have not seen discussed.  Have any of the ladies here, especially those from Ukraine, been able to bring any family heirlooms to the West when they immigrated?  When we first came to Houston last May, Vika brought only her clothes and some of her photos.  We left all her family heirlooms securely locked away in our Odessa flat.  Now she is there for the summer, and wants to bring a few things home, such as her huge tea maker that is well over 100 years old.  It has been in her family since the late 1800s.  I can only assume that she is going to have serious difficulty in getting this treasured piece home in August.  Can someone please advise? 

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2008, 05:52:17 AM »
I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:

- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.

I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 05:56:26 AM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline Fashionista

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2008, 06:07:41 AM »
I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:

- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.

I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?


Apparently, this is a banknote issued by Denikin

http://kolekzioner.net/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=126

signed by М.В. Бернацкий

http://www.bonistikaweb.ru/STATYI/bernatskiy.htm

Strangely enough, the link does not mention the existence of a 500 ruble banknote.  Perhaps, someone with more knowledge on the subject can clarify.  Probably, it was issued by Wrangel (?)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 06:16:33 AM by Fashionista »
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2008, 06:14:56 AM »
Thank you Fashionista, so my hunch was correct ;).
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2008, 08:14:54 AM »
I have this puzzling old 500-ruble banknote:

- Issued: 1920 (post Revolution).
- Emblem: twin eagles (not the Imperial ones), no visible Communist references.
- Quality of print and paper: very poor.

I wonder if our FSU ladies can make something out of its faint print (size: original). Some White Russian issue ?


Mikhail Vladimirovich Bernatsky, a Russian scientist-economist and Financial Minister of Russian Provisional Government, trying to fight against inflation ordered the printing of new money in London (as it was the best quality of printing and plus falsification protection) for a new money reform in South Russia (Crimea where Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel was the Commander-in-Chief of the White forces).   But Bernatsky's theory failed, as the new money did not have any value, because America refused loan to White South Russia, therefore that new money wasn't the real money in Russia.  :) 

 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 08:50:29 AM by OlgaH »

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2008, 09:21:19 AM »
Mikhail Vladimirovich Bernatsky... ordered the printing of new money in London (as it was the best quality of printing and plus falsification protection)
Olga, I don't think my 500 R bill was printed in London, its quality is VERY low compared to older Imperial money.

P.S.: notice something peculiar in this 10-ruble banknote, analoguous to the 5 rubles I posted elsewhere  ;)?
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2008, 09:36:04 AM »
Olga, I don't think my 500 R bill was printed in London, its quality is VERY low compared to older Imperial money.

Sandro, please look at the 500 R bill. If you can see the watermark Saint George it means that the bill was printed in London  :)

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2008, 09:45:51 AM »
Sandro, please look at the 500 R bill. If you can see the watermark Saint George it means that the bill was printed in London  :)
Nope, no St. George, the watermark covers the whole bill and looks more like a mosaic/tiled floor of some sort.
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2008, 09:55:44 AM »
Any guesses for the 5-10 Ruble peculiarity ? It's NOT a minor detail ;).
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2008, 10:28:59 AM »
Nope, no St. George, the watermark covers the whole bill and looks more like a mosaic/tiled floor of some sort.

Sandro, I just can not see the bill myself.

And sorry for the confusing.  Bernatsky ordered the paper with watermark St George  and also equipment and paint to print the bills locally in 1919,  but I can not recall if that bills with St. George were printed

But it is the historical fact that the bills 100R, 500R and 1000R  were ordered and printed in London. In January of 1920 the news paper "Free speech" announced that the transport with new money arrived from London.


Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2008, 10:39:10 AM »
Sandro, I just can not see the bill myself. And sorry for the confusing.  Bernatsky ordered the paper with watermark St George  and also equipment and paint to print the bills locally in 1919,  but I can not recall if that bills with St. George were printed But it is the historical fact that the bills 100R, 500R and 1000R  were ordered and printed in London. In January of 1920 the news paper "Free speech" announced that the transport with new money arrived from London.
Olga, there only two possible conclusions: either your history is incomplete, or my bill is a piece of forgery ;D.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 10:46:17 AM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2008, 10:48:05 AM »
Sandro,

the bills 5 and 10 R of 1909 were printed in Russia (Printing Plant of Goznak). The design of the bills were made by Russian artists and etchers as Yakob Reihel (he also was a scientist and wrote the books in the sphere of Russian numismatology) and Perikl Ksidias. (I'm not sure about English spelling)   

 

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