Poll: Among US citizens has increased the number of supporters of Ukraine weapon

[Boethius]

Darth_Budda,

So,you think members of the DPR have the right to haul business people out of their businesses at gunpoint and force them to sign over their businesses to them ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to insist that all residents,the ones that are still left,must only speak Russian ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to walk into car showrooms and take any car they want without paying ?

This is not western propaganda..this is what has been happening in Donetsk in reality.....maybe your friend forgot to mention that to you.

Let's also not forget some of their more endearing policies, such as extra judicial executions and their belief that women should not be frequenting restaurants.

[fathertime]

 

The current mobilization is for a quarter million man army which is in keeping with the CIA factbook estimates.  And contrary to popular belief, those reporting for duty aren't coming from the West and Central regions but from the South and East.
 

I just watched a really interesting movie it is called:  DIRTY WARS 2013.  It is a documentary, from an investigative journalist named Jeremy Scahill.  Boy does he make our tactics and lies look terrible.  The amount of people we are killing, or paying others to kill is disturbing...it is all under the radar.  I really wouldn't be surprised if he have helped fund Ukrainian militias, although that is pure speculation. 


Perhaps you or other posters have seen this movie, if so I'm curious what the reactions are.

[Darth_Budda]

Let's also not forget some of their more endearing policies, such as extra judicial executions and their belief that women should not be frequenting restaurants.

It comes from a rape case, the defendants lawyer said that the girl who accuses him of rape goes to bars and night clubs, so she deserved for something bad to happen.

The judge says that it is not right and that he cant use that defense.. Even if girls go to night clubs every day they don't deserve to be raped.

Watch it your self... the full version...

The Full youtube vid...

[Boethius]

No, the leader of the DNR has made the same pronouncement about women.

[Darth_Budda]

Darth_Budda,

So,you think members of the DPR have the right to haul business people out of their businesses at gunpoint and force them to sign over their businesses to them ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to insist that all residents,the ones that are still left,must only speak Russian ?

You think members of the DPR have the right to walk into car showrooms and take any car they want without paying ?

This is not western propaganda..this is what has been happening in Donetsk in reality.....maybe your friend forgot to mention that to you.

How many of the people that fled to Russia are ethnic Russians ?

I do agree that this war is about the rich..rich Oligarchs in their quest for more power and pro-Russian terrorists and assorted mercenaries who want to join them at the head of the table.

The Leader of the DPR was a electrical engineer from the mines, he is no Oligarch..
They have seized the wealth of the oligarchs in the east, this is true.

If you look back the oligarchs in the east were the original backers of the DPR, Until they relized they did not serve them...

My friend is a rifleman, so he was been busy on the front. he is just taking a vacation now during the cease fire..
No Russian service men, just Americans, French, Spanish and a few from South America..

I think they are right to seize the wealth of the super rich. Society can give and society can take away wealth. God or god does not help in that department.

I would not be surprised to see a second revolution in Kiev, kicking this new Fat Cat to the curb...

[Darth_Budda]

No, the leader of the DNR has made the same pronouncement about women.

If that is in fact the case, I will say I disagree with him completely. But that is not enough to dam him...

[Boethius]

He, and many of the "rebels" are not honest men.  I don't disagree about the oligarchs, but all that has occurred is new criminals have replaced the previous criminals.

[Darth_Budda]

He, and many of the "rebels" are not honest men.  I don't disagree about the oligarchs, but all that has occurred is new criminals have replaced the previous criminals.

Could be,,, But I myself always default to Left wing groups in situations like these.

In the early days I got reports of fellow Communists and Socialists being harassed and beaten by ultra-nationalists. Because I follow the international Communist movement I can say that these reports started in the early days of the protests in Kiev...

Than the CP of Ukraine was BANNED!!!  I am sorry but this is not democratic....... Their is a Communist Party in the USA...

To me they lost the majority of the right to say they were democratic a long time ago...

Any politician in Kiev that does not follow the Nato story is simply banned.

You may not agree with what Communists think or say but in a democracy have every right to speak and vote our convictions.

The CP of Ukraine was not a small organization either. it was one of the larger parties.

[Boethius]

I have no problem with the communist party being banned.  It just happened 24 years too late.  The party should have been banned after the collapse of the USSR, and all party members should have been prohibited from holding public office for at least a decade.  The fish rots from the head down.


You are wrong in your pronouncement on Kyiv politicians following NATO.  There are politicians in Kyiv right now who are anti NATO, and anti West.

[AC]

There is an historical precedent of the USA arming Russia’s adversaries.  During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877, Winchester rifles inflicted heavy casualties on the Russians.  This was essentially a private contract between the Turkish government and Winchester.  Why can’t we do that today?

However, what I see as a bigger problem for Ukraine is the poor military turn-out.  From on-line sources I’ve gathered that Ukraine has been able to field 65,000 soldiers in Eastern Ukraine.  This out of a population of 42 million.  For comparison’s sake, the Confederacy during the US civil war with a population of 9 million, was able to field over a million soldiers.  During the Russo-Finnish war, the Finns with a population of only 2 million were able to field around 200,000 soldiers.  It makes Ukraine’s numbers look really pathetic.  It should be noted that Ukraine also has a vast armaments industry, granted some of it has been reduced to rubble now, such as the rather historic cartridge making factory in Lugansk, but there are missile mfgs all over Ukraine.  Where is their inventory when it’s needed?  It seems to me that Ukraine is missing a lot of manpower as well as material from this conflict, and as result, are trying to "hook" outsiders into supporting it militarily as well as economically.  Before the US or Europe makes any military commitments to Ukraine, I would like Ukraine to explain why it has so few soldiers defending their homeland from attack and why with so many military manufacturers, it has difficulty supplying equipment to them, the answers might be interesting...   

I had the same question, and so did Chelseaboy.  Too many young Ukrainian men are at the discos and expect foreigners to save their bacon.  Granted they don't have the right weapons yet, but the lack of Ukrainians wanting to defend their homeland is a bit unnerving.

[lordtiberius]

He built it by stealing the most well known chocolate factory in Kyiv.

Your accusation has no facts to support it. 

[AC]

Add one more, the West must ARM UKRAINE with superior firepower and DENY SWIFT FOR PUTIN.

       

[Boethius]

Your accusation has no facts to support it.

Yes it does.  I know the Kyiv factory he stole.  It was the largest candy factory in Ukraine.  It was not purchased.

[AC]

Yes it does.  I know the Kyiv factory he stole.  It was the largest candy factory in Ukraine.  It was not purchased.

Poroshenko did this? 

[lordtiberius]

Yes it does.  I know the Kyiv factory he stole.  It was the largest candy factory in Ukraine.  It was not purchased.

Did it have a ROSHEN sign on it?  How did he steal it?  Did he pick it up and put it in his pocket when the owner wasn't looking?

[Boethius]

LT, no Ukrainian oligarch became rich as a result of honest work.  He took a factory that was the largest in Kyiv, and did not pay for it.  He didn't pay the workers of that factory.  He didn't pay the state.  Yet somehow, that factory ended up in his hands.  Whether he branded the candies separately is irrelevant.


He also owned an estate in Crimea that was not paid for.  It is now likely the property of some Russian oligarch, who no doubt, did not pay Poroshenko for it either.

[Boethius]

You, like most Westerners, do not understand that the communist party was a criminal organization not only because of how it treated people, but also in how its members routinely stole state property.


In Ukraine, most factories ran a second shift, the profits of which went straight to the pockets of party members.  Poroshenko studied law, so he was from the highest levels of Soviet nomenklatura.

[lordtiberius]

You, like most Westerners, do not understand that the communist party was a criminal organization not only because of how it treated people, but also in how its members routinely stole state property.


In Ukraine, most factories ran a second shift, the profits of which went straight to the pockets of party members.  Poroshenko studied law, so he was from the highest levels of Soviet nomenklatura.

No, I understand it. I don't agree with you.  Your accusation lacks evidence. 

That he had access to capital at the time and that he exploited for personal gain qualifies him as an Oligarch by most definitions.  I conceded that.  You said he stole the company FROM WHOM?  Also Poroshenko was 26 years old in 1991.  Poppa might have been a commie, but is he a commie now?  ROSHEN employees are exploited now?  You don't build the best brand in Ukraine by exploiting people.  You build vast fortunes by stealing and exploiting people.  But building a brand with real value is different than the theft you painting with a broad brush.  Like I said, Akhemtov and Yanuk were criminals because they stole, killed, bribed and corrupted.  If you have evidence Petro did these things, please tell us.  Otherwise . . .

[Boethius]

At 26, he was already in law school during Soviet times.  Moreover, the systems did not change overnight.


The "access to capital" is irrelevant.  He never paid anyone for that factory, yet it somehow ended up in his hands. 


I never stated Poroshenko didn't build a brand.  But that doesn't change the fact he obtained much of his fortune in a less than honest manner.


Yatseniuk bragged openly about receiving US$2 million while a central banker.  These politicians are not clean, and it doesn't help to portray them as such.  The pressure must stay in place.

[BillyB]

He took a factory that was the largest in Kyiv, and did not pay for it.  He didn't pay the workers of that factory.  He didn't pay the state.  Yet somehow, that factory ended up in his hands.  Whether he branded the candies separately is irrelevant.

Here's a passage I took out of Wikipedia:


While still a student, he founded a legal advisory firm mediating the negotiation of contracts in foreign trade, and then he undertook the negotiations himself, starting to supply cocoa beans to the Soviet chocolate industry in 1991.[18] At the same time, he was deputy director of the ‘Republic’ Union of Small Businesses and Entrepreneurs, and the CEO “Exchange House Ukraine”.[18]

In 1993, Poroshenko, together with his father Oleksiy and colleagues from the Road Traffic Institute in Kiev, created the UkrPromInvest Ukrainian Industry and Investment Company, which specialised in confectionery (and later other agricultural processing industries) and the automotive industry.[18] Poroshenko was director-general of the company from its founding until 1998, when in connection with his entry into parliament he handed the title over to his father, while retaining the title of honorary president.[18]

Between 1996 and 1998, UkrPromInvest acquired control over several state-owned confectionery enterprises which were combined into the Roshen group in 1996, creating the largest confectionery manufacturing operation in Ukraine.[18] His business success in the confectionery industry earned him the nickname "Chocolate King".[20] Poroshenko's business empire also includes several car and bus plants, Leninska Kuznya shipyard, the 5 Kanal television channel,[21] as well as other businesses.



I searched Google but couldn't find any real dirt on him. He did acquire state owned candy enterprises but sometimes businesses run by the state is dead weight and whoever takes possession may be taking on debt. The American government sometimes sells things cheap. A few years ago a high bidder won an aircraft carrier for one dollar. I don't see how Poroshenko can steal state owned property without getting caught or someone at the state giving it to him. I don't think the Ukrainian government is anywhere near as ethical as ours but it's speculation to say he stole it. I could believe the government gave him the businesses with an agreement that he pay if he turned a profit. What government officials did with the money should be up for question. Did they put it in the state's coffers or in their pockets?


If Poroshenko is a thief and working people like slaves as you imply, other presidential candidates should have run with the story heavily before the elections. The majority of Ukrainians voted in Poroshenko so if there's a rumor going around, they aren't buying it. Putin would benefit most from this information. If he ran this story with evidence, he could demoralize the Ukrainian troops and the country's will to fight under Poroshenko's leadership.

[lordtiberius]

At 26, he was already in law school during Soviet times.  Moreover, the systems did not change overnight.


The "access to capital" is irrelevant.  He never paid anyone for that factory, yet it somehow ended up in his hands. 


I never stated Poroshenko didn't build a brand.  But that doesn't change the fact he obtained much of his fortune in a less than honest manner.


Yatseniuk bragged openly about receiving US$2 million while a central banker.  These politicians are not clean, and it doesn't help to portray them as such.  The pressure must stay in place.

So because he got a sweetheart deal, that makes him a thief?

I know people who steal government property.  They abuse their positions to steal tools, guns and optics.  They then sell it for drugs sometimes.  The smart ones then launder the dirty money through real estate.  That's what thieves do at an Army base, not that the Army cares because they don't.

Poroshenko got a once in a lifetime something for nothing deal and he took it.  He then built one of the best brands in Ukraine that could be a European or world competitor.  A thief just thinks about more stuff he can steal because he thinks it is owed to him.

Unless you have other evidence, I will refrain from future comment on the matter and let others make their own mind.

I will say I agree with you on Yats. He is a crook.

[Darth_Budda]

Here's a passage I took out of Wikipedia:


While still a student, he founded a legal advisory firm mediating the negotiation of contracts in foreign trade, and then he undertook the negotiations himself, starting to supply cocoa beans to the Soviet chocolate industry in 1991.[18] At the same time, he was deputy director of the ‘Republic’ Union of Small Businesses and Entrepreneurs, and the CEO “Exchange House Ukraine”.[18]

In 1993, Poroshenko, together with his father Oleksiy and colleagues from the Road Traffic Institute in Kiev, created the UkrPromInvest Ukrainian Industry and Investment Company, which specialised in confectionery (and later other agricultural processing industries) and the automotive industry.[18] Poroshenko was director-general of the company from its founding until 1998, when in connection with his entry into parliament he handed the title over to his father, while retaining the title of honorary president.[18]

Between 1996 and 1998, UkrPromInvest acquired control over several state-owned confectionery enterprises which were combined into the Roshen group in 1996, creating the largest confectionery manufacturing operation in Ukraine.[18] His business success in the confectionery industry earned him the nickname "Chocolate King".[20] Poroshenko's business empire also includes several car and bus plants, Leninska Kuznya shipyard, the 5 Kanal television channel,[21] as well as other businesses.



I searched Google but couldn't find any real dirt on him. He did acquire state owned candy enterprises but sometimes businesses run by the state is dead weight and whoever takes possession may be taking on debt. The American government sometimes sells things cheap. A few years ago a high bidder won an aircraft carrier for one dollar. I don't see how Poroshenko can steal state owned property without getting caught or someone at the state giving it to him. I don't think the Ukrainian government is anywhere near as ethical as ours but it's speculation to say he stole it. I could believe the government gave him the businesses with an agreement that he pay if he turned a profit. What government officials did with the money should be up for question. Did they put it in the state's coffers or in their pockets?


If Poroshenko is a thief and working people like slaves as you imply, other presidential candidates should have run with the story heavily before the elections. The majority of Ukrainians voted in Poroshenko so if there's a rumor going around, they aren't buying it. Putin would benefit most from this information. If he ran this story with evidence, he could demoralize the Ukrainian troops and the country's will to fight under Poroshenko's leadership.

Thats the thing the people who took power in Kiev Banned many political parties and threw out many representatives.. Mostly from the east...


The View of one Left Wing Organization I follow in Ukraine..

http://borotba.su/ban_on_the_communist_party-_a_step_towards_dictatorship._by_victor_shapinov.html


They make no illusion that many in the cp were corrupt. But at the same time they see the move as Un-Democratic..
I to see the move as Un-Democratic and McCarthyism. Pushed by NATO..

If Ukraine is tiring to be more like the West than they be Democratic.  Their is a Communist party in England, France, USA, Canada, Japan, the list goes on...

The Kiev government has also Banned a lot of TV and News from Russia.. Again another Un-Democratic move...

The Kiev government has done very little to help the People. Min-Wage in Western Ukraine is now less than several African countries and with IMF Greek style bail out on it's way...

The current government will have a very rough ride, If they can make it with out the far right overthrowing the current government of kiev...

[lordtiberius]

Nothing you have written is true.  Its all inaccurate or lies.

[sleepycat]

Commie propaganda?

[mendeleyev]

Darth:

Thats the thing the people who took power in Kiev Banned many political parties and threw out many representatives.. Mostly from the east...

What a load. Not even close to accurate.