Hi guys, I am a new bie here and need an urgent answer.

[ScottinCrimea]

KenC, Mine was not a judgement either way, just wanted to present the idea that we should not judge the actions or inactions of RW, let alone the morality, nor should we have different expectations just because of where they live.

[William3rd]

Oh please, enough generalizing about "decent RW won't do this, won't do that" etc.
Circumstances vary and sometimes the level of trust attained through long-distance communication can be high enough to risk a trip to warmer latitudes as a way to spend quality time and get acquainted.  And mind you, not all RW will expect the man to cover their expenses; some are capable of taking care of themselves just fine.

Sounds like the morality issue struck a little close to home on this one.

[dand]

Wow some great info here. Thanks Jack and Co. Really educational.., thank you. I to am new to this and have an on-line relationship going with a girl from Nikolaev. i am taking my time to get to know her and communicating all my likes and dislikes, as she is too. If  and when the time is right I would want to go see her in her home town and meet her family, Family is very important and I would want to love them as much as I loved her.
So far we are very compatible. I am committed to this and I know it takes a lot of planing. I know I have to have at leased 30K to 40K in disposable income for us to travel back and forth to Russia to visit her parents,and other expenses. I make a good living so if she doesn't want to work and stay home to raise our children(hopefully) that would be great. I would never want my kids to have a baby sitter or outside child care. I also would support her if she wanted to work after the kids are in preschool. I hear Russian women are really family oriented thats why I decided to persue a RW. American girls that I have experienced are so spoiled and materialistic. I think you have to have open and honest and straight forward communication for it to be successful and thanks to everyone here so far everything is going good.

Thanks for the posts,    Dan

[KenC]

KenC, Mine was not a judgement either way, just wanted to present the idea that we should not judge the actions or inactions of RW, let alone the morality, nor should we have different expectations just because of where they live.

Scott,
As I said, " I would like to think that I use the same standards to judge moral character for all people."

Before meeting Lena I dated many AW that I met vis the Net.  Some were local and some were not.  I think I got a good feel for how to procede in developing an Internet based friendship.  And I am sorry to disagree with you, it is ALL about judging your potential partner.  Their "moral character" should match your own, whatever that might be.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

Sounds like the morality issue struck a little close to home on this one.

Of course it did; how would YOU like to be labeled immoral just because you did something differently than the others?

[Diplomacy]

I can tell you for a fact that there is extreme biased in Krivoy Rog and the majority of the population garners less than pleasant opinions about the deal for the steel plant there.  Indian patriots bought the plant.

They are filling jobs with their own people and that plant is the major source of jobs in the city.  IMO everyone was trying to make sure you knew that there was such prejudice held there.  I would rather hear something twice than not at all.  You are not listening.

Yes, there are many people there that will rise above such preconceived notions.  It is probably you as a person they have come to like.  The reality is that even in the USA bi-racial marriages are harder here.  We are probably 20 years a little more tolerant society about this.

The way it has been explained to me, is that I am going to get nasty looks and comments just being a USA man there.  I did not argue the fact, they were people that are experts and care about me enough to properly prepare me for what may happen.

Do not look a gift horse in the mouth!

[Ade]

Of course it did; how would YOU like to be labeled immoral just because you did something differently than the others?

I agree with Blues here; seriously, people have to be extremely careful not to project their own moral standards and judge others by them. I'd say this is particularly true if you're American as you guys are unfortunate enough to have been indoctrinated by a society with a skewed and hypocritical sense of morality to start with. The same goes for those of a religious bent. 

[ConnerVT]

I agree with Blues here; seriously, people have to be extremely careful not to project their own moral standards and judge others by them. I'd say this is particularly true if you're American as you guys are unfortunate enough to have been indoctrinated by a society with a skewed and hypocritical sense of morality to start with. The same goes for those of a religious bent. 

Didn't you just judge Americans, and those whom religion is important in their life, by your own moral standards?   ???   

[KenC]

I agree with Blues here; seriously, people have to be extremely careful not to project their own moral standards and judge others by them. I'd say this is particularly true if you're American as you guys are unfortunate enough to have been indoctrinated by a society with a skewed and hypocritical sense of morality to start with. The same goes for those of a religious bent. 

Jaded,
I love Conner's comments and agree with them 100%. 

And I repeat:
And I am sorry to disagree with you, it is ALL about judging your potential partner.  Their "moral character" should match your own, whatever that might be.

If one is not going to use their own moral standards to select a mate, what should they use?  A crystal ball? 
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,
As I said, " I would like to think that I use the same standards to judge moral character for all people."

Before meeting Lena I dated many AW that I met vis the Net.  Some were local and some were not.  I think I got a good feel for how to procede in developing an Internet based friendship.  And I am sorry to disagree with you, it is ALL about judging your potential partner.  Their "moral character" should match your own, whatever that might be.
KenC

KenC, you missed my point entirely.  Reread my statement and note the part in bold.

KenC, Mine was not a judgement either way, just wanted to present the idea that we should not judge the actions or inactions of RW, let alone the morality, nor should we have different expectations just because of where they live.

Of course judgement of a woman's character and morality is vital.

[KenC]

KenC, you missed my point entirely.  Reread my statement and note the part in bold.

Scott,
The bolded statement is me quoting myself. ???
KenC

[Lit_1nce]

Perhaps things are just as she said.. "more convenient for her". Visa issues aside, if someone from Ukraine was flying to meet me.. Sure I could meet them in Cancun, or Canada but I would prefer to meet them closer to home. (If visa was a problem though then a 3rd country would be logical)

I can see how this 3rd country meeting might be considered a morals thing.. but I don't think that quite nails down the real issue. Some people are just more concerned than others about what friends and family might think about such an adventure.. Just as some people here are more concerned about what their friends and family might think of them traveling to Ukraine to meet someone.. That doesn't make either, moral or immoral.

[Ade]

Didn't you just judge Americans, and those whom religion is important in their life, by your own moral standards?   ???   

  Yes.

However, in my defence I will say that I don't go around calling people "immoral" just because they don't happen to agree with my set of ethical standards.

As far as I'm concerned consenting adults can just about do anything they want with each other in any time frame they choose as long as there is no coercion involved.

[Ade]

Jaded,
I love Conner's comments and agree with them 100%. 

And I repeat:
And I am sorry to disagree with you, it is ALL about judging your potential partner.  Their "moral character" should match your own, whatever that might be.

If one is not going to use their own moral standards to select a mate, what should they use?  A crystal ball? 
KenC

Actually stating that a partners sense of morality should match your own is fine but there was, somewhere down the posting line, an assumption that if a woman meets a man in a hotel somewhere for a first date she was immoral. And that is not the same thing.

[KenC]

Yes.

However, in my defence I will say that I don't go around calling people "immoral" just because they don't happen to agree with my set of ethical standards.

As far as I'm concerned consenting adults can just about do anything they want with each other in any time frame they choose as long as there is no coercion involved.

Ethics or morals are kind of the same thing.  Sorry I don't see your distinction of "ethics" vs. "morals" as relevant.

[Main Entry: eth·ic
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'e-thik
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ethike, from ethikos
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> d : a guiding philosophy
/i]

Actually stating that a partners sense of morality should match your own is fine but there was, somewhere down the posting line, an assumption that if a woman meets a man in a hotel somewhere for a first date she was immoral. And that is not the same thing.

And for the record, no one called anyone "immoral."  The only use of that reference was Blues Fairy in an explanation of her point of view regarding herself.

The original explanation of why a vacation local is frowned on was due to the possibility of the "scam" factor and for the practicality of meeting locally (meeting friends & family) without any mention of the moral issues.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,
The bolded statement is me quoting myself. ???
KenC

I'm confused.  What about my previous statement do you disagree with?

[Ade]

Ethics or morals are kind of the same thing.  Sorry I don't see your distinction of "ethics" vs. "morals" as relevant.

[Main Entry: eth·ic
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'e-thik
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ethike, from ethikos
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> d : a guiding philosophy

The difference between ethics and morals can seem somewhat arbitrary to many, but there is a basic, albeit subtle, difference. Morals define personal character, while ethics stress a social system in which those morals are applied. In other words, ethics point to standards or codes of behavior expected by the group to which the individual belongs. This could be national ethics, social ethics, company ethics, professional ethics, or even family ethics. So while a person’s moral code is usually unchanging, the ethics he or she practices can be other-dependent.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-ethics-and-morals.htm

And no, in this conversation the difference is not relevant but I didn't say it was.

/i]And for the record, no one called anyone "immoral."  The only use of that reference was Blues Fairy in an explanation of her point of view regarding herself.

The original explanation of why a vacation local is frowned on was due to the possibility of the "scam" factor and for the practicality of meeting locally (meeting friends & family) without any mention of the moral issues.
KenC

Then please explain what you mean by, "It is also not typical for a woman of high moral standards to accept such an invitation"   if you're not implying that it's typically women of low moral standards that do accept such invitations.

[KenC]

Scott,
No big deal.  It really isn't all that important.

Jaded,
Points taken.
KenC

[Turboguy]

I never saw ethics and morals as similar.   Morals generally has to do with sex.  Ethics normally has to do with business, money and friendships.   If you try to have sex with a child you are immoral.   If you embezzle your partners money you are unethical.  They are as different as night and day.

I agree that moral standards are an individual thing.  There have been lots of discussions along the lines that when seeking a wife if sex happens to quickly many consider that not a good thing.  If it happens too slowly also not a good thing.   I think the objectives we have are a big factor.  For a 19 year old guy asking a gal on a date he may consider sex on the first date a good thing.  For a 30 year old looking for a wife maybe not.

I think in male female relationships we tend to put women in pigeonholes.  Friend might be one, sex partner another, activity partner, wife.  We may not ever want sex with a woman we only want as a friend but if we see a woman as only a sex partner the sooner the better (hypothetically).

To me when I was wife hunting I always thought that a woman who wanted to hop in the sack too quick would be quick to hop in the sack with anyone, the mailman, the repair guy, etc.   That is not necessarily true but I think I am not the only one who thinks that way.  Life has no guarantees anyway.

[Gator]

If you embezzle your partners money you are unethical. 

And a criminal.

There have been lots of discussions along the lines that when seeking a wife if sex happens to quickly many consider that not a good thing.  If it happens too slowly also not a good thing. 

Independent of morals, some women really like sex and some do not.

To me when I was wife hunting I always thought that a woman who wanted to hop in the sack too quick would be quick to hop in the sack with anyone, the mailman, the repair guy, etc.   That is not necessarily true but I think I am not the only one who thinks that way.

 

Personally, I never gave any weight to the speed of intimacy.  If one were on a WMVM trip, I easily understand why a woman would restrain herself.  The same with if she has questions.  OTOH, if two people just shared a remarkable evening where everything was perfect and the interest in each other is strong ...

[KenC]

Independent of morals, some women really like sex and some do not.

Gator,
Isn't that the difference between wife #1 and wife #2?
 
KenC

[steviej]

Gator,
Isn't that the difference between wife #1 and wife #2?
 
KenC

and if not ... we're headed for wife #3 ... ??   

[steviej]

... OTOH, if two people just shared a remarkable evening where everything was perfect and the interest in each other is strong ...

or ... three ...

[ScottinCrimea]

or ... three ...

stevie, I thought you were an isolationist.   

[Ronnie]

As far as I'm concerned consenting adults can just about do anything they want with each other in any time frame they choose as long as there is no coercion involved.

This statement confuses me.  It may be true in a legal sense.  But when it comes to marriage vows?  If the wife or husband were to engage in extra-marital affairs does this not present a problem for the longevity of the marriage and the security of the children involved?

Pehaps Jaded has no intention of marrying or being in a committed relationship.  That's fine as long as he lets that fact be known up front.  Few FSU women are interested in that when they start up communicating foreign men.  I confess I met several women who realized after years of meetings with men, mostly from Europe, that there was no marriage on the horizon and discontinued the relationship.

So for our Indian OP, he said he has already had a Russian gf.  Perhaps she was one who realized he had no intent to marry?  Perhaps Indian men or less appealing to RW because they stereotype them as chauvinistic and unfaithful?  I have to say that in my previous location, I knew a small handful of Indian men - all married, none faithful.  They were very open, even boastful about this, otherwise I wouldn't have known. 

So, OP, if you are one of those men, you would do well to stay off this site not get involved with FSUW.  You inexplicabel reluctance to meet her on her home turf but instead at some resort destination paints you as not so serious about marriage.  If you are not one of that sort, then be aware of the suspicion which you will always be under.  Perhaps an Indian woman will understand you and appreciate you more if you are atypical.