Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Cultural and Political Events => Topic started by: jone on December 03, 2013, 11:59:39 AM

Title: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: jone on December 03, 2013, 11:59:39 AM
I picked this up from Forbes through this Forum's friend, Galyna, who is an occasional visitor here.  It gives a great perspective on understanding the underpinnings of the current Ukrainian upheaval.
Quote
Confused About What's
Happening In Ukraine? Here Are
5 Things You Should Know

by Mark Adomanis, Contributor



The drama that is currently unfolding on the streets of Kiev has understandably drawn an enormous amount of media attention. At a time when the EU is in such a funk, and when its diffidence in dealing with the aftereffects of the financial crisis has caused it to lose the faith of so many Europeans, it’s more than a little heartening to see hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians out in force demanding a chance to integrate with it.

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration, though, to say that until the recent protests Ukraine was simply not on many peoples’ radars. So for the sake of everyone’s understanding here are five important things that you should know about Ukraine that help to put its current travails into perspective.

1) Ukraine has stark regional political differences

The image below is an electoral map of the 2010 presidential elections that pitted the now current president Viktor Yanukovych against the now jailed Yulia Tymoshenko. Red is Tymoshenko and blue is Yanukovych, and the darker the color the stronger their level of support.Kiev, the scene of the most
significant of the ongoing protests is the small white blob in slightly northwest of the center and was firmly in Tymoshenko’s camp.

The fact that Kiev didn’t vote for Yanukovych doesn’t make the protests there unimportant, but it is worth keeping in mind that Kiev was never a fan of his to begin with. Yanukovych’s power base has always been located in the country’s south and east. So far, there haven’t been any noteworthy protests in the Russian-speaking industrial regions that pushed him into office, suggesting that his core of supporters has not (yet!) deserted him.

2) Ukraine’s economy got clobbered by the financial crisis, and still hasn’t recovered

After a strong burst of growth during the 2000′s Ukraine’s economy shrank by almost 15% in 2009, making it one of the world’s worst performers. Since then it posted a few years of decent growth but has recently slumped back into stagnation. The current unrest obviously has political causes as well, but
Ukraine’s sclerotic economy also helps to explain why people are so fed up.

3) Ukraine’s currency (the Hryvnia) has a totally crazy and increasingly indefensible peg to the US Dollar

What do exchange rates have to do with street protests? Well part of the reason that Ukraine’s economy has been so weak is that its currency is hugely overvalued. Ukraine has an informal peg of roughly 8 to the dollar, a level that has been essentially unchanged since 2009. The US dollar has actually fared
quite well over the past few years, and so Ukraine’s currently has been appreciating in comparison to those of its neighbors (depressing exports and encouraging imports).

Yanukovych has been desperate to avoid devaluation because of the enormous short-term harm to living standards and the enormous political damage to him and his party. This is why Ukraine has been so focused on finding a better “deal” from Europe or Russia, and why it has been so insistent on short-term infusions of resources: Yanukovych will do whatever he can to postpone devaluation until after the 2015 presidential election but he needs a big wad of cash in order to do so.

4) Ukraine is running out of money

During the boom years of the 2000′s Ukraine built up a reasonably large cushion of foreign currency reserves. However it has been relentlessly burning through these reserves since early 2011, and they are approaching a critically low level. At some point in the near future Ukraine will need to stop living beyond its means, but this will obviously have a negative impact on the broader economy and on popular living standards. Yanukovyh, therefore, has been determined to postpone the day of reckoning for as long as possible in the hope that he will be able to arrange a cash infusion from the Russians or the Europeans.

5) Ukraine’s population is in free fall

You often hear Ukraine described as an “eastern European nation of 45 million people,” but it wasn’t all that long ago that it was a nation of more than 50 million. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine’s population has been in a relentless and unending decline.

What relevance does this have to the street protests in Kiev? Well even someone as demographically-focused as myself can’t draw a direct causal link between demographic decline and political instability, but the fact that Ukraine is quickly emptying out is worth keeping in mind when one thinks about the country’s future course.

Ukraine is not a “prize,” it’s a rapidly aging society that is one of the most demographically unstable in the planet.Regardless of whether Ukraine integrates with Europe or with Russia it is going to face massive challenges from a shrinking and aging workforce.

Quote

Ops Note: I tried to put these attachments to line up with the points.  Perhaps a moderator could do that for me as I don't know how.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Shadow on December 03, 2013, 12:46:25 PM
Yanukovich may follow and old Russian strategy. If you want people to be happy with what they have, make it worse then make it as it was, and all will be happy.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 03, 2013, 12:55:12 PM
Here you go Jone
Confused About What's
Happening In Ukraine? Here Are
5 Things You Should Know

by Mark Adomanis, Contributor


The drama that is currently unfolding on the streets of Kiev has understandably drawn an enormous amount of media attention. At a time when the EU is in such a funk, and when its diffidence in dealing with the aftereffects of the financial crisis has caused it to lose the faith of so many Europeans, it’s more than a little heartening to see hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians out in force demanding a chance to integrate with it.

I don’t think it’s an exaggeration, though, to say that until the recent protests Ukraine was simply not on many peoples’ radars. So for the sake of everyone’s understanding here are five important things that you should know about Ukraine that help to put its current travails into perspective.

1) Ukraine has stark regional political differences

The image below is an electoral map of the 2010 presidential elections that pitted the now current president Viktor Yanukovych against the now jailed Yulia Tymoshenko. Red is Tymoshenko and blue is Yanukovych, and the darker the color the stronger their level of support.Kiev, the scene of the mostsignificant of the ongoing protests is the small white blob in slightly northwest of the center and was firmly in Tymoshenko’s camp.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Figure1_zps5e3cf55a.png)

The fact that Kiev didn’t vote for Yanukovych doesn’t make the protests there unimportant, but it is worth keeping in mind that Kiev was never a fan of his to begin with. Yanukovych’s power base has always been located in the country’s south and east. So far, there haven’t been any noteworthy protests in the Russian-speaking industrial regions that pushed him into office, suggesting that his core of supporters has not (yet!) deserted him.

2) Ukraine’s economy got clobbered by the financial crisis, and still hasn’t recovered

After a strong burst of growth during the 2000′s Ukraine’s economy shrank by almost 15% in 2009, making it one of the world’s worst performers. Since then it posted a few years of decent growth but has recently slumped back into stagnation. The current unrest obviously has political causes as well, but Ukraine’s sclerotic economy also helps to explain why people are so fed up.
 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Figure2_zps5bf6a588.png)


3) Ukraine’s currency (the Hryvnia) has a totally crazy and increasingly indefensible peg to the US Dollar

What do exchange rates have to do with street protests? Well part of the reason that Ukraine’s economy has been so weak is that its currency is hugely overvalued. Ukraine has an informal peg of roughly 8 to the dollar, a level that has been essentially unchanged since 2009. The US dollar has actually fared quite well over the past few years, and so Ukraine’s currently has been appreciating in comparison to those of its neighbors (depressing exports and encouraging imports).

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Figure3_zps0cf742f5.png)

Yanukovych has been desperate to avoid devaluation because of the enormous short-term harm to living standards and the enormous political damage to him and his party. This is why Ukraine has been so focused on finding a better “deal” from Europe or Russia, and why it has been so insistent on short-term infusions of resources: Yanukovych will do whatever he can to postpone devaluation until after the 2015 presidential election but he needs a big wad of cash in order to do so.

4) Ukraine is running out of money

During the boom years of the 2000′s Ukraine built up a reasonably large cushion of foreign currency reserves. However it has been relentlessly burning through these reserves since early 2011, and they are approaching a critically low level. At some point in the near future Ukraine will need to stop living beyond its means, but this will obviously have a negative impact on the broader economy and on popular living standards. Yanukovyh, therefore, has been determined to postpone the day of reckoning for as long as possible in the hope that he will be able to arrange a cash infusion from the Russians or the Europeans.
 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Figure4_zps22511789.png)

5) Ukraine’s population is in free fall

You often hear Ukraine described as an “eastern European nation of 45 million people,” but it wasn’t all that long ago that it was a nation of more than 50 million. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine’s population has been in a relentless and unending decline.

What relevance does this have to the street protests in Kiev? Well even someone as demographically-focused as myself can’t draw a direct causal link between demographic decline and political instability, but the fact that Ukraine is quickly emptying out is worth keeping in mind when one thinks about the country’s future course.

Ukraine is not a “prize,” it’s a rapidly aging society that is one of the most demographically unstable in the planet.Regardless of whether Ukraine integrates with Europe or with Russia it is going to face massive challenges from a shrinking and aging workforce.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Figure5_zpsc4a18688.png)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 03, 2013, 02:45:52 PM
The US Diplomats on twitter are twittering about this interview given by this Clintonian Ambassador.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Karl_Pifer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTr1tOrqdUw


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

Quote
Budapest Memorandum  . . .  may be summarized as follows: Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Gator on December 03, 2013, 05:56:14 PM
How much of the decline in population is due to having fewer babies and how much is due to emigration?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 03, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
dunno

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

Quote
-3.1 Decrease people/1,000 population (2012)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 09:26:11 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/04/ukraine-reserves-idUSL5N0JJ3CR20131204

Ukraine reserves depleted

bank runs?
Quote
Based on a comparison of monthly import needs and maturing short-term debt, Ukraine's reserves compare poorly with most of its peers, according to the following graphic, based on data released by Bank of America Merrill Lynch on Wednesday:

Ukrainian reserves have almost halved from a 2011 high of close to $40 billion as its currency and exports have faltered.

"Among the big high-yielding emerging markets we would think Ukraine is the riskiest one," said David Hauner,

One yardstick of reserve adequacy is the number of months of imports the reserves will buy, with three months deemed to be the safe minimum.

The second, based on the so-called Guidotti-Greenspan rule, requires reserves to be at least equal to foreign debt payments in the coming year. The rationale is countries should have enough reserves to resist a sudden stop in external financing.

Ukraine's plight contrasts with the reassuring picture across much of the developing world - Turkey is the only other emerging country showing a reserves-to-short-term debt ratio of under 1.

A key difference between Ukraine and most other emerging markets today is that its currency is tightly controlled, meaning authorities must often spend reserves supporting it. The central bank sold dollars again on Wednesday, as the hyrvnia slipped to a new four-year low against the dollar


Putin's Bacon in a pickle?

Quote
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/03/ukraine-banks-idUSL5N0JI2SI20131203

Russian banks exposed in Ukraine political crisis

Ukraine seems to have little immediate prospect of additional financial help to meet its big external deficits and financing needs, making it even less attractive to the foreign banks that flocked there before the 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers triggered the worst of the global financial crisis.

according to a Raiffeisen Research survey - Russian banks have maintained a strong market presence, . . . accounting for 12 percent.

in a credit outlook note this week, ratings agency Moody's cited Russian President Vladimir Putin as saying Ukrainian borrowers owed around $28 billion to four Russian banks and named Gazprombank, Vnesheconombank (VEB), Sberbank and Bank VTB as creditors.

"We estimate that these banks' exposure to Ukrainian risk is $20-$30 billion, a sizeable amount indeed, considering that their combined Tier 1 capital was $105 billion in June," Moody's said.

Moody's, which estimated that 35 percent of all bank loans in Ukraine were problem loans, said the country's severe economic problems would keep local borrowers under pressure and could result in higher loan losses for the Russian lenders.

Ukraine's debts are mounting and may no longer afford to ignore the lure of the West

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/ukraines-protesters-find-unusual-ally-in-business/article15773343/

Ukraine’s protesters find unusual ally in business
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 09:44:25 PM
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=184931
An expose on the 5 opposition groups

Ukraine is on track for a sovereign debt crisis.  It can't afford to pay Russia's bills or follow Russia's ways.
http://for-ua.com/main/2013/12/04/212008.html

Sergey Arbuzov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serhiy_Arbuzov
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Photo Guy on December 09, 2013, 10:27:57 PM
Other things to keep in mind about this opposition movement.
1- Yanuykovych has been telling his country that he will sign the trade deal with the EU. He has been saying this for years. Right before the meeting in Vilnius, Lithuania, Yanu did an about-face. He did not sign the deal, citing pressure from Russia.
2- When Yanu's govt realized there would be massive protests in Kyiv, Yanu's judges implemented a law stating that it was illegal to assemble in the public squares. This basically made it illegal to protest against him.
3- Yanukovych has been consolidating power, including the jailing of political prisoners, like former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, his main opponent. The opposition wants to make the jailing of political prisoners illegal.
4- The people of Ukraine now realize that their govt is heading away from democracy and toward a Putin-like dictatorship, complete with crackdowns on media/free press.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: tfcrew on December 10, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
The latest on Yulia...
Quote
The current president, Viktor Yanukovych, stands accused by protesters of turning his back on Europe, after refusing to sign a partnership agreement with the EU. They also accuse him of conducting a vendetta against former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who was imprisoned more than two years ago for abuse of power. 
Outside General Clinic No 5, in the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, the incongruity of it all was striking.
The hospital, in which opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko is held, is something out of Soviet times - an ugly, concrete monstrosity where security men in plain clothes patrol the grounds, keeping prying eyes away from a woman regarded by millions of supporters as a political prisoner.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71637000/jpg/_71637501_cb95c351-07ef-4f36-aea3-1014dbd8d090.jpg)

Eugenia Tymoshenko has kept her mother's plight in the spotlight

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25305254
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 10, 2013, 09:17:12 PM
That evil witch got off light for all the damage she caused to Ukraine.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 10, 2013, 10:44:48 PM
Clooney is for Tymoshenko.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuABLx0rpJU
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: tfcrew on December 11, 2013, 09:07:33 AM
That evil witch got off light for all the damage she caused to Ukraine.

 ::) Yeah OK if you say so? 
So that grants  Yanukovych sainthood?
I'll settle with the historical record.
 
 
Quote
Tymoshenko was charged of abuse of power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_power) and embezzlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement), as allegedly biased court found the deal anti-economic for the country and abusive. On 11 October 2011, a Ukrainian court sentenced Tymoshenko to seven years in prison after she was found guilty of all charges. The sentence caused public protests in front of the court house.[19] The trial was viewed by many international organizations, such as the Danish Helsinki Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Committee_for_Human_Rights) as a politically-charged persecution that violates the law.[20] ...The European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) and other international organizations sees the conviction as "justice being applied selectively under political motivation."[29] The European Union has shelved the European Union Association Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Ukraine_relations#European_Union_Association_Agreement) and Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU-Ukraine_relations#Deep_and_Comprehensive_Free_Trade_Agreement_.28DCFTA.29) with Ukraine over the issue.[30][24][31] The EU has repeatedly called for release of Yulia Tymoshenko as main condition for signing the EU Association Agreement.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Thug Victor expunges his own record..

Quote
Criminal convictions On 15 December 1967, at the age of 17, Yanukovych was sentenced to three years incarceration for participating in a robbery and assault.[18] The sentence was later reduced to 18 months as part of the amnesty announced in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the October Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution). The court did not show Yanukovych clemency, a practice common for young, first-time offenders. At the court trial Yanukovych pleaded guilty and did not appeal his sentence even though he had the chance to do so at the expense of the state.[citation needed]
On 8 June 1970 he was convicted for a second time on charges of assault and was sentenced to two years of imprisonment. The verdict was not appealed. Decades later, Yanukovych characterized his arrests and incarceration as "errors of youth".[19]
On 11 July 2005, the office of the Donetsk Oblast Prosecutor charged Mr. Yanukovych with fraud[20] stemming alleged irregularities in the way his convictions were expunged twenty years earlier.[21] In 2006 the General Prosecutor of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Prosecutor_of_Ukraine) closed the case due to lack of evidence.[22] In 2006 a criminal charge was filed for the falsification of documents regarding the alleged quashing of Yanukovych's prior convictions after it was discovered that two documents had been forged. The signature of the judge in Yanukovych's case had also been forged as a charge of battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28crime%29).[18][19] The charge failed because all documentation regarding the conviction had been destroyed due to its expiry.[citation needed] However, there were no official records regarding the destruction of these documents.[original research?]
On 29 January 2010 the Prosecutor General of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor_General_of_Ukraine) Oleksandr Medvedko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Medvedko) claimed that Yanukovych was unlawfully jailed in his youth, which astonished the (then) Minister of Internal Affairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Internal_Affairs) Yuriy Lutsenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Lutsenko).[23][24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 11, 2013, 09:22:10 AM
Song about Yanukovych by Hammerman obliterates Viruses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpuGRSpB1ZQ
sounds like Mack the Knife


Has the opposition announced any plan of action to remove Yanukovych or the Azarov government?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 09:41:55 AM
::) Yeah OK if you say so? 
So that grants  Yanukovych sainthood?
I'll settle with the historical record.
 

You are missing the point. They are two birds of the same feather.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: ML on December 11, 2013, 10:02:41 AM

You are missing the point. They are two birds of the same feather.

Exactly right.  Both Yulia and Yanokovich should have life sentences in  jail . . . along with probably dozens of others.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 10:51:51 AM
::) Yeah OK if you say so? 
So that grants  Yanukovych sainthood?
I'll settle with the historical record.


I did not post that Yanukovych is a saint.  However, he has not, to date, exceeded his authority by breaking contracts that benefited Ukrainians and replacing them with contracts that cost Ukraine over 10% of its GDP.   
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: tfcrew on December 11, 2013, 11:08:35 AM
I never read/heard that Yulia took her broom and beat people over the head.
I never read/heard that anyone even protested against her [except for Victor's stooges]
The lesser of two evils is usually evil..look at the USA.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 11, 2013, 11:10:07 AM
he has not, to date, exceeded his authority
(http://inmoscowsshadows.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/berkut2.jpg)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 11:26:57 AM
I never read/heard that Yulia took her broom and beat people over the head.
I never read/heard that anyone even protested against her [except for Victor's stooges]
The lesser of two evils is usually evil..look at the USA.

She acquired a multi billion dollar fortune by stealing state assets while working with Lazarenko.    She manipulated the hyrnia and sugar prices while in power, so that she could profit personally. She has been implicated in at least two politically motivated murders, and one of Yushchenko's appointees, the former head of the FSB (and, therefore, a former Orangista) now living abroad has implicated her in murder plots against political opponents.  He has stated if anything happens to him, the evidence is stashed away safely.

As PM, she broke a highly beneficial gas contract Ukraine had with Russia, so that a warrant Russia had against her, would disappear.  That contract has cost Ukrainians well over $20 billion. 

So no, she is definitely not the lesser of two evils.



Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 11, 2013, 11:57:04 AM
So no, she is definitely not the lesser of two evils.

(http://tn.clashot.com/thumbs/1059053/46976547/thumb_w800.jpg)

(http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2013/12/07/p18b5h7268n154431ghcbnqnoc4/big.jpg)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 11, 2013, 11:58:24 AM
Bo, your hatred for her has gotten in the way of logic. She negotiated a deal that was had to be approved by both the Russian and Ukrainian Parliaments. She did not have dictatorial powers to act alone. If that is her largest crime, then the entire Rada should be sitting in jail by her side.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:12:00 PM
The Council of Ministers, which needed to approve the contract, was not aware of the Russian deal.  Tymoshenko gave Dubyna a fake document, stating the Council of Ministers had approved the deal.  Dubyna said he was shocked at the new negotiated price.  Tymoshenko stated the Council of Ministers approved the price, so, Dubyna signed.  When Dubyna learned the document presented to him was fake, he had a heart attack.  That "official government document" somehow "disappeared" while the Orangistas were still in power.

In the aftermath on investigation of the circumstances surrounding the signing of the Russian contract, all of the ministers on the Council testified that Tymoshenko came to each of them and asked them to lie about the timing of the approval.  Almost all those ministers knew she is an evil vindictive witch, and that she would use her power to destroy them, if given the chance.  Only one member of the Council, a Chukcha whose name currently escapes me, was not afraid of Tymoshenko's revenge.  He testified that the deal was never presented to them, she told them in the aftermath, she tried to intimidate them to change their stories, and he always refused.  Another member backed Tymoshenko's story.  When asked about contrary testimony from other members, he changed his story.  This was on television, and unless that minister was a world class actor, I believe him, as his fear in changing his testimony was evident, even on television.  This is why she is jail now.  The fact that Tymoshenko's personal debt of over $450 million to the Russian government also miraculously "disappeared" when Tymoshenko signed the contract, has not been investigated.

So, mendy, I will respectfully disagree with you.  Tymoshenko manipulated Dubyna and renegotiated the contract for her own personal benefit.  She assumed she'd be in power forever, and therefore, neither Dubyna nor anyone on the Council of Ministers would query her, let alone dispute her version of the circumstances surrounding the signing of the contract.

 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 11, 2013, 12:18:12 PM
Bo, and being manipulated somehow dissolves the responsibility of elected officials in what way?  :)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:19:18 PM
Dubyna was never an elected official.  He was the head of Naftogaz.

The contract was signed by the time the Council of Ministers learned of its existence.  So, how can they be held responsible for Tymoshenko's duplicity?  The deal was done.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:21:48 PM
BTW, Dubyna, a former Soviet industrial apparatchik, is one of the few members of the former nomenklatura who did not steal Ukraine blind.  In fact, he did not steal at all.  He is honest and very clean cut. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: tfcrew on December 11, 2013, 12:24:40 PM
Bo, your hatred for her ...
Yeah I was wondering that too.
What did Yulia do to you Bothius?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 12:29:58 PM

I did not post that Yanukovych is a saint.  However, he has not, to date, exceeded his authority by breaking contracts that benefited Ukrainians and replacing them with contracts that cost Ukraine over 10% of its GDP.

I'm sorry Boe but both are 'tal para cual" meaning equally the same.
 
Too many pictures to post so here's a link.
 
http://www.google.com/search?q=yanukovych+house&client=firefox-a&hs=Prq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zrmoUoX9HMakyAHotYC4BA&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=892 (http://www.google.com/search?q=yanukovych+house&client=firefox-a&hs=Prq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zrmoUoX9HMakyAHotYC4BA&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=892)
 
And how he busted his ass to make his fortune
 
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london (http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london)
 
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/ukraine-yanukovychs-family-spreads-its-tentacles (http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/ukraine-yanukovychs-family-spreads-its-tentacles)
 
And maybe, just maybe the real reason he will not sign an EU agreement.
 
http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Dysfunctions_2/Why-Yanukovych-Could-Never-Sign-an-EU-Deal.shtml (http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Dysfunctions_2/Why-Yanukovych-Could-Never-Sign-an-EU-Deal.shtml)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:33:05 PM
I don't hate Tymoshenko.  But, please provide me with any reason to admire a murderer and a thief as in my world, these are not individuals to be admired.  Should I admire her for the fake braid on her head?  I'm not interested in what is on her head, but what is in her head and her blackened heart.  I am not interested in what she says, but what she does.


Give me the evidence of what good she ever did for the Ukrainian population.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 12:35:33 PM
I don't hate Tymoshenko.  But, please provide me with any reason to admire a murderer and a thief as in my world, these are not individuals to be admired.  Should I admire her for the fake braid on her head?  I'm not interested in what is on her head, but what is in her head and her blackened heart.  I am not interested in what she says, but what she does.


Give me the evidence of what good she ever did for the Ukrainian population.

You'll get no argument from me here. She should rot in jail for all I care. Now, if we could add egg-boy to keep her company, then the country would be heading in the right path.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:39:04 PM

I'm sorry Boe but both are 'tal para cual" meaning equally the same.
 
Too many pictures to post so here's a link.
 
http://www.google.com/search?q=yanukovych+house&client=firefox-a&hs=Prq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zrmoUoX9HMakyAHotYC4BA&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=892 (http://www.google.com/search?q=yanukovych+house&client=firefox-a&hs=Prq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zrmoUoX9HMakyAHotYC4BA&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=892)
 
And how he busted his ass to make his fortune
 
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london (http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london)
 
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/ukraine-yanukovychs-family-spreads-its-tentacles (http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sergii-leshchenko/ukraine-yanukovychs-family-spreads-its-tentacles)
 
And maybe, just maybe the real reason he will not sign an EU agreement.
 
http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Dysfunctions_2/Why-Yanukovych-Could-Never-Sign-an-EU-Deal.shtml (http://www.ocnus.net/artman2/publish/Dysfunctions_2/Why-Yanukovych-Could-Never-Sign-an-EU-Deal.shtml)


Once again, I never stated Yanukovych is a saint.  However, AFAIK, he has not, to date, forged state documents for his personal benefit.   Her crime doesn't look any better just because Yanukovych stole as well. 

I dispute the last article.  Every Ukrainian president has become fabulously wealthy.  I doubt the EU would pursue this.  I believe the IMF demands, and Russian threats re gas cuts and disruption of exports from Eastern Ukraine, is the reason for refusing to sign the Association Agreement.  The Ukrainian government truly was between a rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 12:40:06 PM

You'll get no argument from me here. She should rot in jail for all I care. Now, if we could add egg-boy to keep her company, then the country would be heading in the right path.


So should every other former president of Ukraine, and most of the members of the Rada. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 12:59:46 PM

Once again, I never stated Yanukovych is a saint.  However, AFAIK, he has not, to date, forged state documents for his personal benefit.   Her crime doesn't look any better just because Yanukovych stole as well. 

I dispute the last article.  Every Ukrainian president has become fabulously wealthy.  I doubt the EU would pursue this.  I believe the IMF demands, and Russian threats re gas cuts and disruption of exports from Eastern Ukraine, is the reason for refusing to sign the Association Agreement.  The Ukrainian government truly was between a rock and a hard place.

Quote
In February 2010, when he was elected, Viktor Yanukovych enjoyed support from most of the big businessmen. He quickly formed a cabinet that represented - by my count - nine different enterprise groups. But through a rapid series of governmental changes he reduced this number to two by December 2013.

At present, the government - and increasingly the economy - is dominated by a group of young businessmen who are friends with Mr Yanukovych's eldest son Oleksandr, 40. They are widely known as the Yanukovych "family".

However, who owns what is not exactly clear, and it is possible that in fact much of the wealth might belong to Mr Yanukovych's real family.

These young businessmen from Donetsk, Mr Yanukovych's eastern home region, hold all the key economic positions in the government as well as the powerful post of interior minister.

Mr Yanukovych has used a salami tactic against the tycoons.

Young businessmen or corporate raiders buy out their enterprises one after the other. These sales have been described as not very voluntary, given that the "family" controls law enforcement, courts and the tax authorities.

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25323964)
 
I guess Goldilocks should have done it the 'salami' way. They claim it is legal.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 01:01:38 PM
How does this result in millions of Ukrainians paying 10 times more for their winter gas?  That, IMHO, is what sets Tymoshenko apart. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 01:04:16 PM
How does this result in millions of Ukrainians paying 10 times more for their winter gas?  That, IMHO, is what sets Tymoshenko apart.

http://www.unian.info/news/441832-yanukovych-is-reverse-robin-hood-he-steals-from-the-poor-to-give-to-the-rich.html (http://www.unian.info/news/441832-yanukovych-is-reverse-robin-hood-he-steals-from-the-poor-to-give-to-the-rich.html)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 01:07:26 PM
Pensions were not cut for some pensioners who had much higher pensions than the average (i.e, former commies).  Pensions, overall, have increased twice since Yanukovych has been in power.  There have been a few times where receipt of a pension has been delayed.  I follow this closely, as MIL lives solely on her pension, and we supplement her income, though at her request, not monthly.



Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 01:47:20 PM
I'm sorry Boe, but to me they are all a bunch of Sovok relics. For all I care they should all be buried with their past, literally.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 01:50:20 PM
Why are you sorry?   I don't disagree.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 11, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
Quote
and most of the members of the Rada

Yes, thus my point.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 01:52:24 PM
The better half, from the day he left the USSR, contended the CPSU and all republic parties should have faced Nuremberg trials, and all commie party members should have been banned from holding public office for at least two decades.  I think a Truth and Reconciliation Commission would have been better.  In the end, Yakovlev won, the party records, and party crimes, are sealed, and the old masters are the new masters.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 01:53:09 PM
Yes, thus my point.


But they were not involved in the contract negotiations, or its ratification. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 02:14:46 PM
Why are you sorry?   I don't disagree.

With you, I'm always very polite.  ;)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 11, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
The better half, from the day he left the USSR, contended the CPSU and all republic parties should have faced Nuremberg trials, and all commie party members should have been banned from holding public office for at least two decades.  I think a Truth and Reconciliation Commission would have been better.  In the end, Yakovlev won, the party records, and party crimes, are sealed, and the old masters are the new masters.

You know the sad part is that the country needs some of these bastards like Ahkmetov, et.al. in order to survive. The only saving grace is that they are not that much interested in politics, just money.
 
Just like the Kennedys, the Carnegies, and the Rockefellers. Bunch of criminal bastards.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 11, 2013, 03:02:51 PM
Muzh despite our being on opposite sides of the fence at times, we are so close on so many issues. I still don't know why FDR didn't have old man Kennedy in front of a firing squad the minute he returned home. Sure, he used the traitor to hand false information to the Nazi's but treason is treason and FDR should have had him doused within a hour of return.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 11, 2013, 05:18:17 PM
Timshenko is a political prisoner.  To accept the "evidence" as a pretext for imprisonment redefines democratic judicial standards away from "beyond a reasonable doubt" for arbitrary ones.  She may be a bad leader and a bad person.  But that is not illegal.  She maybe guilty of crimes, but her accusers have no evidence.  The conspiracy theories offered by members on different threads about JFK and Tower 7 compell more curiousity than what we have here and on the voluminous threads exploring her guilt.

I have no interest in this woman.  She came from privilege and got rich, inspired millions and disappointed them.  Can she lead Ukraine?  Yes.  Should she?  My preference is for someone else.  Klitchko because he lived in the West, Andry Shevchenko, Petro Poroshenko, Tainybok or Yatensiuk, Rybchak, take your pick.  But should the Dowager Queen be in jail?

No.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: tfcrew on December 11, 2013, 05:39:05 PM
Don't leave out Lenny Kuchma :popcorn:

Quote
His presidency was surrounded by numerous corruption scandals and the lessening of media freedoms. Corruption accelerated after Kuchma's election in 1994

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchmahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchma
 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: ML on December 11, 2013, 08:28:41 PM
On our latest trip to DC, Ochka continued to be impressed with the men who helped found our country . . . and was so depressed that there aren't such men/women in Ukraine.

She, I, and I suppose many others are amazed when we hear how George could have had any title and power that he wanted; but instead chose to go back to Mt. Vernon . . . at least until duty called again.

John A., Ben F., etc.  I  don't think any of them ever enriched themselves at the expense of the citizens.

We are indeed blessed to have been created and served by such.

By the way . . . the fairly new Visitor's Center (or whatever it's called) at Mt Vernon is quite impressive and interesting.  Be sure to enter, rather than just look at and in his house.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: TomT on December 11, 2013, 09:00:41 PM
... redefines democratic judicial standards away from "beyond a reasonable doubt" for arbitrary ones.


In practice, there is no such thing as "reasonable doubt" in Ukraine so that begs the question of how one moves away from something that never existed. Of course, my knowledge is dated so we should get a legal opinion from someone who has gone there recently.


p.s.


Don't you ever tire of spamming the forum with your photos and videos?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 11, 2013, 09:05:20 PM
Don't leave out Lenny Kuchma :popcorn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchmahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchmahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kuchma)


Tymoshenko came to Kyiv as part of his Dnipropetrovsk mafia.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 11, 2013, 09:11:29 PM
On our latest trip to DC, Ochka continued to be impressed with the men who helped found our country . . . and was so depressed that there aren't such men/women in Ukraine.

You don't think there are such people at Euromaidan?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: ML on December 12, 2013, 09:39:09 AM
You don't think there are such people at Euromaidan?

I was speaking in terms of persons who had already attained National leadership status . . .  and the traits they displayed after such attainment.

Wannabees can always look pure . . . the test is AFTER they attain positions of power.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 09:43:54 AM
I was speaking in terms of persons who had already attained National leadership status . . .  and the traits they displayed after such attainment.

To clarify, when you say National leadership, you men those who attained leadership beyond the Members of Parliament?  Ministers?  Party Heads? or only Prime Ministers.  I see a lot of able leaders among the elected and activist communities in Ukraine.  George Washington, Franklin, Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson were men before we made them gods, no?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 12, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
To clarify, when you say National leadership, you men those who attained leadership beyond the Members of Parliament?  Ministers?  Party Heads? or only Prime Ministers.  I see a lot of able leaders among the elected and activist communities in Ukraine.  George Washington, Franklin, Adams, Hamilton and Jefferson were men before we made them gods, no?

I see a bunch of hustlers. Something like this:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3luAajTJo4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3luAajTJo4I)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: ML on December 12, 2013, 09:55:09 AM
  I see a lot of able leaders among the elected and activist communities in Ukraine. 

I don't doubt you there.  But, as they move up in the ranks, the wealth transfer starts - - - toward them.

I am not expert in this area - - - but has there been any top Ukrainian leader (let's say top 3) who did not accumulate a substantial fortune while serving?

It seems to be genetic.  It is not for lack of a good reason that the top mob gangs in more and more cities around the world are run by FSU folks.

Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 09:56:32 AM
Have you seen the movie?  I have.  David O. Russell has a sympathetic view of politicians like Jeremy Renner's character and a caustic one of bureaucrats.  A mediocre movie - not his best - though Bradley Cooper did an AWESOME job!!
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
I don't doubt you there.  But, as they move up in the ranks, the wealth transfer starts - - - toward them.

I am not expert in this area - - - but has there been any top Ukrainian leader (let's say top 3) who did not accumulate a substantial fortune while serving?

It seems to be genetic.  It is not for lack of a good reason that the top mob gangs in more and more cities around the world are run by FSU folks.

Like you, I am not an expert.  Those that criticize the limits of my knowledge in this area do so on very solid ground.  Though I will brag that I speak Ukrainian better than the Russian, Polish, and Belarusian un-indicted rapist twice elected to President of Ukraine. 

Like you, I am a veteran.  We have practiced political behavior and leadership in our youth.  We understand strategic and geopolitical realities.  The Cold War shaped our thinking.  I concede to you that as a Navy man, you understand the importance of Naval choke points more than I do.  You understand that without those warm weather ports, Russia cannot be a superpower or a strong regional power and that Ukraine because of its population, culture and geography make it a very important acre of strategic real estate.

Politics shares a lot in common with show business.  When I was in politics, our trainers called politics show business for ugly people.  Politicians, journalists, candidates, party officials, they call practice this dark art of magic, religion, trickery and fraud.  That's why Muzh's allusion to the David O. Russell movie holds weight.

The problem that all the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries face is how to treat state owned industries.  I sure would be interested in how Mendeleyev answers this question if he chooses to answer it.  Those state owned industries Gas for Goldilocks and Candy for Poroshenko afforded the Oligarchs their rise to power.

Stalin killed private industry because he knew that independent sources of wealth like the Candy Industry in Ukraine or Klitchko's boxing success would challenge power.  As a historian this was true in American history.  New money Industrialists like clothing manufacturers in antebellum New England challenged landowners - the old money.  Stalin had to have all the power.  So he did to the Kulaks and industrialists what Putin did to Kordkovsky, Berezovsky and what Obama is doing main street and Wall Street dissidents like Jaime Diamond.  Stalin took over industries "legally" much like Obama legally nationalized the banking industry through Dodd Frank.

The question is how do you divest the state of these assets.  The way the Russians choose to do this and I am sure this is true in Ukraine to a degree is that they auctioned them off.  Kordkovsky, Berezovsky, Abramovich like Timoshenko and Poroshenko raised money and bribed the officials to own it.   We have state owned industries too that we privatized - California privatized the energy industry.  And we have politicians that make money off government.  Jim Peterson of Arizona is one as is Lamar Alexander is another.

How do you get rid of GM?  We technically own it?  How do you get rid of Cabrini Green - the slums or public housing that Valerie Jarrett made her fortune on?  How do divide that pie that doesn't create a situation where you have oligarchical rule?  How do you prevent oligarchical rule from coming into your country or dismantle it once it has taken shape?

To answer your question specific to Ukraine,

1) Klitchko

2) Yatensiuk

3) Tyagnybok

4) [deleted]

5) Poroshenko

6) Lutsenko

7) Andriy Shevchenko

8 )  Inna Bohoslovska

These I think are the next leaders of Ukraine.

 Klitchko

pros:  lived in and made a fortune in the West, originally a Russian speaking son of an ex-Soviet Army officer, lots of ties to the West including celebs like Hayden Panterrie and George Clooney, eloquent and witty English speaker. Popular among the young people. Consider this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RR7wHDTbYg

cons:   not a lot of political experience, cagey about his money (probably wants to protect it from people who want to take it away.)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 10:50:33 AM
Arseniy Yatseniuk:
pros: young, # 2 in Block Timoshenko, ran for President in 2010, anecdotes are that he is an approachable man

cons:  I can't say for sure. I don't know his background very well. But he lost the election.  No one likes a loser unless the loser is right and he gains political capital for being right which he might have.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BIbbm273f4
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 10:56:47 AM
Oleg Tyagnibok
pros: from Lviv, leader of the nationalist party Svobody, represents the West, made his bones in the West, charismatic, has a lot of poise

cons:  I don't think he speaks English, or made his money outside of politics, maybe backed or controlled oligarchs, his party has a reputation for beating up pensioners and associated with the Nazis.  He will have a difficult time uniting the country - but if anyone from his party could do it, he could.  He might be the Abraham Lincoln of his country meaning if he is the leader of Ukraine, pro-Russian provinces may secede.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnk2Kc4kG8I
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 11:04:44 AM
Petro Poroshenko:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko
He is my favorite.  He has a lot of pro-business views that I like.  But he is an Oligarch.  He has ties to the West and a business need to go West sell to chocolates.  I don't know if he can connect with the pro-West millennials who are and will be more politically active

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QihJYbMxrow

you can look up the others or follow up a query me later.  But wacth out for Andriy Shevchenko look how he man-handles the Rusky info-babe from RT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2w50OEpQXU

He kills her with kindness.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 12, 2013, 11:39:22 AM
Like you, I am not an expert.  Those that criticize the limits of my knowledge in this area do so on very solid ground.  Though I will brag that I speak Ukrainian better than the Russian, Polish, and Belarusian un-indicted rapist twice elected to President of Ukraine. 

Like you, I am a veteran.  We have practiced political behavior and leadership in our youth.  We understand strategic and geopolitical realities.  The Cold War shaped our thinking.  I concede to you that as a Navy man, you understand the importance of Naval choke points more than I do.  You understand that without those warm weather ports, Russia cannot be a superpower or a strong regional power and that Ukraine because of its population, culture and geography make it a very important acre of strategic real estate.

Politics shares a lot in common with show business.  When I was in politics, our trainers called politics show business for ugly people.  Politicians, journalists, candidates, party officials, they call practice this dark art of magic, religion, trickery and fraud.  That's why Muzh's allusion to the David O. Russell movie holds weight.

The problem that all the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries face is how to treat state owned industries.  I sure would be interested in how Mendeleyev answers this question if he chooses to answer it.  Those state owned industries Gas for Goldilocks and Candy for Poroshenko afforded the Oligarchs their rise to power.

Stalin killed private industry because he knew that independent sources of wealth like the Candy Industry in Ukraine or Klitchko's boxing success would challenge power.  As a historian this was true in American history.  New money Industrialists like clothing manufacturers in antebellum New England challenged landowners - the old money.  Stalin had to have all the power.  So he did to the Kulaks and industrialists what Putin did to Kordkovsky, Berezovsky and what Obama is doing main street and Wall Street dissidents like Jaime Diamond. 
 

I thought you were serious. You had me going until you got to this part.
 
Stalin took over industries "legally" much like Obama legally nationalized the banking industry through Dodd Frank.


And the rambling rant that followed.
 
Your list of candidates look like hot wet spaghettis. Throw them to the wall and see which one sticks.
 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 12, 2013, 12:38:14 PM
Though I will brag that I speak Ukrainian better than the Russian, Polish, and Belarusian un-indicted rapist twice elected to President of Ukraine. 

I doubt that.  Yanukovych speaks broken Ukrainian.

Quote
Stalin killed private industry because he knew that independent sources of wealth like the Candy Industry in Ukraine or Klitchko's boxing success would challenge power.

No.  It was ideological.  NEP was contrary to Marxist ideology, and was only intended to remain in place until the nationalities were fully subdued.

1) Klitchko - Independently wealthy, but empty headed.  He does not have the acuity to run a country.

2) Yatensiuk - Another common thief.  He once bragged, during a television interview, that he made $2.4 million in a month.

3) Tyagnybok - A former commie.  An ultranationalist with Komsomol leadership and communist party background (as is the case with most of those shouting "mova, mova").  These types usually would sell their mother to get ahead.

4) [deleted]

5) Poroshenko - Another multi millionaire former commie.

6) Lutsenko - Former minister of internal affairs under Yushchenko.  Another millionaire.  Bought an ultra prestige apartment in Kyiv with state funds, but to hide its true ownership, he registered it under his employee's (a driver from his native village) name.  On his arrest, he was mocked mercilessly about this ham handed attempt to hide ill gotten gains.  He was an alcoholic, and went through withdrawal when jailed.  I don't know if he drinks now.

7) Andriy Shevchenko - No interest in a political career.

8 )  Inna Bohoslovska  - Yet another high ranking former commie, from an "ideologically correct" family.  To become a lawyer in the USSR required obkom approval.  This was a faculty reserved only for the most ardent communists.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: jone on December 12, 2013, 01:20:19 PM
Just an observation:

It would seem that most of these individuals were active in society prior to 1991, wouldn't that make most of them former commies?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 12, 2013, 01:27:25 PM
The Ukrainian Communist Party had six million members, out of a population of 54 million.  One could not just "join" the Communist Party.  The Party approached you to join.  Your family background was examined, as far back as archives would allow.  You had to come from the right class.  You had to have demonstrated dedication to the proletarian cause, the ideals of Marxism-Leninism, and the proletariat as the one and only ruling class.  And now, all these people who had no problem informing on their classmates, neighbours, workmates, and even family members, have transformed themselves from dedication to Marxist-Leninist ideology to capitalism and nationalism.  From being informants, they are now all concerned with the rights of their fellow citizens and wish to build a strong and independent nation.  Yeah, right. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:   Their characters have not changed, and this is why, in power, they are wreaking havoc on Ukraine.


 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 12, 2013, 03:04:03 PM
Muzh and Boethius are correct.  I apologize for injected US comparisons to Ukraine.  Boethius argues rightly that those who made the trains run on time have Soviet hands.

We could try what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan which is to replace the current leadership with diaspora pro-westies like Chalabi and Karzai.  Shadow's prohibition, philippic and caution toward superhero rules apply.   Diaspora pro-westies though ideologically pure aren't typically competent or popular at home and in Chalabi's case shady and should be behind bars.  Also though they are nostalgic and loyal to their home countries, returning when it is safe, they expect the country to be as it was when they left and not what it is today. 

Why Ukraine did not choose dissident leaders like Vaclav Havel, I do not know.

Patton saw the Nazi's like Republicans and Democrats and wanted to re-arm SS divisions to face the Soviets.  There are limits to de-Nazification just as there were limits to Reconstruction.  You could have a truth and reconciliation boards.  Those help the country to heal and move on.  But move on to what?  A united Germany or an uncertain South Africa. The realist school of foreign policy is that you deal with what you have on the ground. 

I like Klitchko.  Whatever you want to say about a man's intelligence, he made his money the old fashioned way - he earned it.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 12, 2013, 03:09:00 PM
Quote
Why Ukraine did not choose dissident leaders like Vaclav Havel, I do not know


All the true dissidents were dead.  The Soviets really controlled dissent in Ukraine, by placing informants amongst them.  Rukh, for example, was established by the KGB in 1989, and was headed by a former dissident, Vyacheslav Chornovil.  He too was a former high level communist, who had done time during the Soviet era for writing about Ukrainian dissidents.  He was killed in a very suspicious car "accident".
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: TS on December 13, 2013, 03:30:46 PM
 Klitchko was not born in Ukraine - can he really be President of Ukraine? 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 13, 2013, 04:16:23 PM
This just in.  Unconfirmed sources within the Polish diplomatic corps report that Yanukovych to deploy a nonlethal weapon to disperse young people At Euromaidan - McCain is on a plane.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/John_McCain_official_portrait_2009.jpg)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 13, 2013, 04:48:49 PM
Klitchko was not born in Ukraine - can he really be President of Ukraine?

An individual need not have been born in Ukraine to be president.  Under Ukraine's constitution, he/she must be over 35, be eligible to vote in Ukraine's elections, have a command of the Ukrainian language, and have resided in Ukraine in the 10 years immediately preceding the election.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: SANDRO43 on December 13, 2013, 04:58:50 PM
McCain is on a plane.
He looks a lot like :D:

(http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9tkuJw99neD2aJvWkfnZ-dM5ek6m6cINAUlRlD83r5hB3JQ8_)

But not as funny, probably :-\.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 13, 2013, 05:58:58 PM
Similar requirements for Russia. You must have been a citizen for at least ten years, cannot hold dual passports, and cannot of had a criminal record for the immediate four years prior to running.

The way that most candidates are blocked out of the process is the additional election commission requirements that one must be free from hate speech or revolutionary  political rhetoric. The Russian Supreme Court has ruled against those additional rules but the Federal Election Commission has chosen to ignore the Court and uses this as a filter to get rid of "unacceptable" candidates.

Additionally candidates must collect two million signatures from registered voters and have twenty days in which to collect the signatures, of which no more than 50,000 can come from any one federal district.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 13, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
He looks a lot like :D:

(http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9tkuJw99neD2aJvWkfnZ-dM5ek6m6cINAUlRlD83r5hB3JQ8_)

But not as funny, probably :-\.

we agree Sandro
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 13, 2013, 08:42:22 PM
Given the preference among the membership for the ideologically pure while suspending super hero rules, you are not going to like this. 

You don't get more gangster than Rinat.
(http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/modules/news/images/topics/4e1bbcd2-19d5-b5eb.jpg)

cue the music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL9ihXiFAko

Exercising realpolitik, the West has reached out to Rinat Akmetov.  Who's Rinat Akmetov?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinat_Akhmetov

Quote

 . . .  47th richest man in the world with an estimated net worth of US 15.4 billion  . . .


 . . .   claims Akhmetov has been involved in organized crime.   . . .

"I have earned my first million by trading coal and coke, and spent the money on assets that no one wanted to buy. It was a risk but it was worth it"

Akhmetov has been noted as a financier and unofficial leader of the Party of Regions political party. [rumored to control between 30 to 40 MPs - the magic number to bring the government down]


Oh that gangster . . .

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/25199370.html


Quote
«Те, що в ці дні постраждали люди, це неприпустимо. Я переконаний, що зараз, у складний момент для нашої країни, дуже важливо мати холодні голови і зважений підхід», – зауважив Ахметов.

«Я – за стіл переговорів. Щоб політики, влада, опозиція, моральні лідери країни сіли за стіл переговорів і ухвалили те рішення, яким ми будемо пишатися»,

We will see the weight of his words.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 14, 2013, 08:36:14 AM
My own view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eygxMGKl810
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 16, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
He looks a lot like :D :
 
(http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9tkuJw99neD2aJvWkfnZ-dM5ek6m6cINAUlRlD83r5hB3JQ8_)

But not as funny, probably :-\ .

You would not say that if you had seen his Presidential campaign.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 16, 2013, 01:32:18 PM
He should have lost his seat for unleashing Sarah Palin on an unsuspecting world.  Thank goodness she now is fading into irrelevancy.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 16, 2013, 03:10:48 PM
He should have lost his seat for unleashing Sarah Palin on an unsuspecting world.  Thank goodness she now is fading into irrelevancy.

What exactly is wrong with Sarah Palin?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Anotherkiwi on December 16, 2013, 03:52:52 PM
What exactly is wrong with Sarah Palin?

I thought we went through this last year!  :wallbash:
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: pokerintherear on December 16, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
What exactly is wrong with Sarah Palin?

The reaction to the woman is interesting on RWD. If you compare her view of life and beliefs to most Russian women they would tally the same.  Go figure.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 16, 2013, 05:27:16 PM
I thought we went through this last year!  :wallbash:

Maybe you didn't 'splain it succinctly enough? Tell me again what is wrong with Palin? Other than the demagoguery of the left wing media. Palin had as much experience to be VPOTUS as Obama had to POTUS. No doubt she has much more brains. Please, state your case
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 16, 2013, 07:07:04 PM
What exactly is wrong with Sarah Palin?


She is a "mean girl".  She didn't finish her term in office, ergo, she is a lightweight.  However, she did use her power to advance personal vendettas.  She was not ready for prime time. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 16, 2013, 07:18:05 PM

It's not like she can see Ukraine from her window

Relevance?

If certain members want to start nailin' Palin, they should do so on another thread . . .

Euromaidan please!
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: fathertime on December 16, 2013, 08:35:24 PM

   However, she did use her power to advance personal vendettas.  She was not ready for prime time.


Interesting...give somebody a little power and oftentimes they use it to advance personal vendettas...happens in politics, business, and online forums.  Honestly I liked some of Palin had to say, but she didn't seem ready to be VP, in my opinion. 


As far as McCain, he should be attending to our border issues and dealing with issues that pertain to our country.  I really don't see why our politicians feel the need to be such busybodies. 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 16, 2013, 09:51:21 PM
She won the Biden debate.  Paul Ryan couldn't do that.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Gylden on December 16, 2013, 11:40:43 PM
She won the Biden debate.  Paul Ryan couldn't do that.


Instant polls taken at the end of the event by television channels suggested that despite Mrs Palin managing a more measured performance than many had anticipated, voters were more impressed with Mr Biden.


A poll by CNN and Opinion Research found 51 per cent thought Mr Biden had performed best, with Mrs Palin taking 36 per cent of respondents.


A survey of uncommitted voters for CBS found the split even more pronounced, with Mr Biden on 46, Mrs Palin on 21 and a relatively high proportion stating that neither had impressed or that they could not decide.


When the uncommitted voters were pressed, 18 per cent said they would vote for Barack Obama and Mr Biden following the debate, with only 10 per cent ready to line up for John McCain and Sarah Palin.


Another instant poll done by Fox News, which did not allow for such fence-sitting, had the divide between the two candidates at 61 per cent for Mr Biden and 39 per cent for Mrs Palin.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/presidentialdebates/3129259/Who-won-the-VP-debate-Palin-or-Joe-Biden.html
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 17, 2013, 07:02:09 AM
The long version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FbCPzAsRA

The short version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXJ4Dk33cCQ

We can re-litigate the Palin debate which have nothing to do with Euromaidan except that John McCain was there recently while his erstwhile opponent was otherwise engaged.  I suggest we do it on another thread.

The crisis is going into its fourth week.  I think you can argue a good case anti-maidan case but you cannot have that debate and win it with Viktor Yanukovych as President.  He should resign.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 17, 2013, 08:41:23 AM

She is a "mean girl".  She didn't finish her term in office, ergo, she is a lightweight.  However, she did use her power to advance personal vendettas.  She was not ready for prime time.

Wow, that's way out on a limb for you Boe  :D

A mean girl, really? She was a lightweight when she was chosen by the McCain folks to run as his VP. She was inexperienced and innocent when the DNC and the leftwing media bias roasted skewed and barbeque'd her. They even went so far as to chastise her for not having an abortion of a down syndrome baby. Do you remember what they said/did to other members of her family? Without a doubt, the nastiest vilification in American political history. Your memory seems a bit flawed concerning this aspect.

She was a lightweight. Was being the keyword there. Given the circumstances that she willingly entered and was also thrust into, she certainly came out the other side a more stronger, savvy politically astute woman.

She left her term as gov for what some might consider a noble cause rather than a cut and run as you are eluding to. What political vendetta did she extract?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 17, 2013, 08:55:33 AM
She was a lightweight when she was chosen by the McCain folks to run as his VP. She was inexperienced and innocent when the DNC and the leftwing media bias roasted skewed and barbeque'd her.
 

Legs or breasts? Lemme guess.
 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/sarah_palin_5_zps252551ea.jpg)
 
 
Actually, this was her campaign
 
 
 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/tatas_zps6695e462.jpg)
 
 
 :P
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 17, 2013, 08:56:53 AM
Now, can we go back to Euromadian, please?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 17, 2013, 09:24:38 AM
Now, can we go back to Euromadian, please?

Bregs and nope  ;D

Those only further prove my point there Muzh. That wasn't your intent was it?

Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 17, 2013, 06:08:05 PM
I think it is fair game to go after a politician's personal life, but when you bring a person's family into it.  It's pretty low.  The left has apologized somewhat for the trashy attacks on her daughters.  You can call Palin "a bad mother" for having one in the oven with a reprobate, but of course many babies are born that way nowadays and alienating that segment of the electorate is your gambit.  But joking about raping her adolescent daughter in such a public way is disgusting.  Really?  She disagrees with you on tax policy and you encourage the idea of criminal sexual misogyny on their kid?

As far as Euromaidan goes, I am concerned about the permanence of the Revolution, that this is the new normal.  Jack Frost is no joke in that part of the world and exposing my political allies and enemies to the elements doesn't seem to make much sense.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Gator on December 17, 2013, 10:09:24 PM
I am a Republican and have never thought highly of Sarah Palin.  Even with all of her shortcomings, she would not have been as bad a President as the BIG LIAR in the White House today.

What does this have to do with the Ukrainian Crisis?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 17, 2013, 10:28:10 PM
from Christopher Miller of the Kyiv Post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx2gIq1Dr2Q
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 18, 2013, 09:55:05 AM
as bad a President as the BIG LIAR in the White House today.


You can say that again about that fcuking narcissistic scumbag.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 18, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
(MendeleyevJournal) Obama sent the B team to Ukraine:

Unfortunately the B team is the A team in today's Washington. All that was available were the best, but they aren't that good.

Meanwhile it appears that Senator John McCain has moved from being an expert on Syria to an expert on Ukraine (sigh). Hardly surprising given his position on the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee and admittedly, it would be disappointing if he was ignorant of various countries given the position he holds. Nonetheless, he remains stuck in the Cold War. He really needs to retire and get out with his wife Cindy to travel, garden, cook, take up knitting, learn the art of beekeeping, or something useful.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/john-mc-cain.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/john-mc-cain.jpg)

We've made this Ukrainian crisis into an anti-Putin, as in a him or us issue and that wasn't necessary. At the Mendeleyev Journal we plan to respect the decision of the Ukrainian people and hope that they will chose a course that is good for their future peace and prosperity.

The Ukrainian situation is not so cut and dried as McCain and Obama seem to think. There are advantages and disadvantages to joining the Customs Union and the same could be said for continuing toward some sort of relationship with the EU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcxMc7LohOw

Mr. Obama has not helped matters by staying on the sidelines while sending in his poorly chosen staff and grossly under-talented State Department. Obama may think that his silence gives the appearance of being neutral but in the real world his silence speaks volumes and his position is abundantly clear given the lackeys he has sent in his place and the message they carry.

A true leader in such a crisis would stand up and articulate his position clearly. That would require having a leader in the White House, something not currently available in the USA. Mr. Obama doesn't articulate well and perhaps James Carville is afraid that he'd start babbling about drawing an orange line in the sand or worse, uttering stupid lines like if you like your revolution you can keep it, etc.

On the other side of the debate, Mr. Putin understands that the US has rarely listened to his perspective regarding sanctions over another country. The very mention of sanctions in the media by McCain was really for Mr. Putin's ears as they had already been delivered in private to the current Ukrainian government.

Further, the sanctions threat made public sets up additional expectations that may come back to further hinder the USA's reputation should the need arise but the administration fail to follow through. It also gives Mr. Putin ammunition to say that the USA is threatening yet another a free nation. Neither McCain or Obama would be very good poker partners.

When Ronald Reagan assured Mr. Gorbachev that the US and NATO would never expand Eastward beyond the unification of Germany, and when that promise was repeated to President Yeltsin by Bush I, we set up firm expectations and promises to Russia in exchange for market reforms. From Bill Clinton and moving forward however, we've broken those promises repeatedly and if it seems that Putin sometimes acts like a cornered animal, take a long and hard look in our own foreign policy mirror.

We, the USA of which this writer is a citizen, not only have short memories but we've turned into very accomplished liars at the most unfortunate of times.


Note: (With all due respect Bo, Sarah Palin is brilliant when compared to the current POTUS.)




Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 18, 2013, 01:12:16 PM
Why should the U.S. articulate a decision? 

A legally elected president of a country that is not the United States has rejected a European trade agreement. 

At least half the people in that particular country, and many of its most powerful citizens, object to that decision.  Why does the U.S. need to be involved? 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 18, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
Note: (With all due respect Bo, Sarah Palin is brilliant when compared to the current POTUS.)

Now, I said the POTUS is a narcissitic scumbag. I never claimed he was stupid.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 18, 2013, 01:24:23 PM
Quote
Why does the U.S. need to be involved?

I agree and that is clear from the tone I've taken consistently on this issue. My point was that if the US Prez was going to send a team from the State Department and delegation from the Senate, then don't pretend to be quietly watching in neutral mode from the sidelines. Either lead with your policies or shut up.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 18, 2013, 01:26:20 PM
Quote
Now, I said the POTUS is a narcissitic scumbag. I never claimed he was stupid.

Correct, I was addressing Bo.

I am the one who says, confidently and without apology, that he is equally ill-fitted for the job and stupid.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 18, 2013, 03:22:15 PM
Correct, I was addressing Bo.

I am the one who says, confidently and without apology, that he is equally ill-fitted for the job and stupid.

I agree and second that opine as well as the other 544 figureheads of the U.S. government
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 18, 2013, 03:45:07 PM
mendy, I believe it diminishes you to maintain the refrain that Obama is stupid.  You may not agree with his policies, you may believe he has a poor team around him, and that he is ineffective, but he is not stupid.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Faux Pas on December 18, 2013, 03:57:04 PM
mendy, I believe it diminishes you to maintain the refrain that Obama is stupid.  You may not agree with his policies, you may believe he has a poor team around him, and that he is ineffective, but he is not stupid.

Boe I believe Obama to be in fact, the stupid man in the suit. The man hasn't a clue. It pains me to say that because the fact that he is indeed that stupid ultimately means some other unelected entity is calling the shots
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 18, 2013, 06:06:31 PM
When Ronald Reagan assured Mr. Gorbachev that the US and NATO would never expand Eastward beyond the unification of Germany, and when that promise was repeated to President Yeltsin by Bush I,  . . .

Even if you believe that Amercia should not check or confront Russia or more specifically Putinism, which I do not subscribe, this is an unfair criticism because it is inaccurate.

The Berlin Wall fell in 1989.  Reagan was out of office and he has been dead a number of years.  You say that HW Bush or Bush I did a good job stewarding Russo-American relations.  So who do we have?  Clinton, W Bush and Obama.  You lump these men together when in fact they are all very different and had very different approaches, different realities, different priorities and most importantly different leaders to contend with.  The Obama-Medvedev relationship was quite cozy as was the W. Bush and Putin relationship prior to the Orange Revolution.

But what is missing in this analysis is the re-emergence of Poland as a partner with Germany and France in the EU.  The EU is becoming a third force in US-Russia relations.  Most the hawkish sentiments are not coming out of neocon think tanks like Heritage or the Rand Corporation but from Russia's sparing partners from the 16th, 17th and 18th century - Poland, Germany, Sweden, Lithuania and lest we forget the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada.  The anti EU feeling in the UK has chilled the normally boisterous British foreign office.

The problem for Mr. Putin and all totalitarians is that you cannot bribe and bully everybody and get away with it with no consequences.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: calmissile on December 18, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Correct, I was addressing Bo.

I am the one who says, confidently and without apology, that he is equally ill-fitted for the job and stupid.

+1  Stupid and incompetent!!!
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 19, 2013, 02:12:33 AM
Quote
Even if you believe that Amercia should not check or confront Russia or more specifically Putinism, which I do not subscribe, this is an unfair criticism because it is inaccurate.

The Berlin Wall fell in 1989.  Reagan was out of office and he has been dead a number of years.

It is not inaccurate in the least. Were you aware of the diplomacy between Reagan and Gorbachev? Who was it exactly who said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" You aren't under the impression that all those events leading up to the collapse of the Soviet system came without behind the scenes diplomacy, now did you?   :)

I might suggest that my friend get out a calendar and mark the day of 5 June 2004. That was the day that President Reagan died.

Next find 9 November 1989. That was the date the Berlin wall fell.

Now find 19-21 August  of 1991, the 3 day coup against Gorbachev which ultimately led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Bush I was president and he infuriated many in Congress by wisely choosing restraint against immediately recognizing the independence of the Baltic states. He knew that their independence would stand but he was also determined to live by the terms which Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan had worked to encourage Mikhail Gorbachev. Had Gorbachev not had our assurances, he'd of never moved forward with the Belavezha Accords.

I understand that you chaff at the chance to punch Mr. Putin in the jaw--both of us were indoctrinated steeply in anti Soviet thinking, much of which was correct. Times have changed my friend. Relax and put away those nuke codes--they wouldn't be necessary if our side showed some respect and wasn't always rushing into to fight at the slightest hint of a disagreement.  :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtYdjbpBk6A
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 03:26:05 AM
Now find 19-21 August  of 1991, the 3 day coup against Gorbachev which ultimately led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Bush I was president and he infuriated many in Congress by wisely choosing restraint against immediately recognizing the independence of the Baltic states.

Perhaps we should recall our Ambassadors from the Baltics and negotiate with them only through the Kremlin to honor the spirit of this interpretation of Reagan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sowpvuK-co8
all they did was change the lyrics    :rolleyes:

It is not inaccurate in the least.

Clinton, HW Bush, Obama and W Bush - 4 different presidents and 4 different approaches to Russia.

1) Obama - let's address Obama first because he is the least American, most incompetent of the 4 and most Stalinist president in history.  So its easy to differentiate his approach and dismiss it.  He wants a nuclear free America.  He sent negotiators to Russia to affect this.  He doesn't care if the Russians cheat in nuclear disarmament. he tried the re-set several times.  Putin loathes him but Medvedev got along with him fine.  The lack of diplomatic progress in pursing Russian national interest are solely because of Putin.  Putin has placed his own personal pleasure at humiliating our President - a traitor, a coke addict and closet homosexual.  Russia had more diplomatic success  in pursing Russian national interest with Medvedev and you know it.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02592/Obama-Putin1_2592981b.jpg)

2) HW Bush - you praise him but you don't differentiate or frankly praise him enough for pursuing policies - that I personally disagree with but that you liked.

(http://www.achievement.org/achievers/bus0/large/bus0-022.jpg)

3) W Bush - you have to appraise W Bush before and after the Orange Revolution and through the lens on Condi Rice - a former Sovietologist who has botched everything she has put her hands on.  Before the Orange Revolution, W and Putin had a great relationship.  Putins' way of regarding every political enemy as a terrorist as well as Putin's support for Central Asian dictators disconcerted W Bush.  After the Orange Revolution, the animosity was open but W couldn't operate because of his failures to affect political and military victories in Iraq and political and military progress in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  He abandoned Musharraff in Pakistan and couldn't respond to the Georgian war which he was responsible for in part for provoking.
(http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-07/03/xinsrc_012070403025890652312.jpg)

4) Of the 4 presidents, Clinton had the most leverage and had the most impact.  He dealt with Yeltsin mostly.  He is responsible for the expansion of NATO, the EU and the response in the Balkans which we abdicated our foreign policy to the Saudis.  The loss of life and the genocide that he did mostly nothing about  is something I strongly object to as an American.  Your lack of critical analysis on the Clinton years and silence on Yeltsin who was president of Russia btw, diminishes your argument.
(http://www.frederickbernas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/yeltsin-clinton.jpg)

I understand that you chaff at the chance to punch Mr. Putin in the jaw

I don't trust Vladimir Vladimirovich.
(http://jesuslordofall.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/vkyslm.jpg)
Putin has done a lot of things that I admire.  I don't necessarily object to his pursuit of a string Russia policy especially in central Asia as a check against Islamic fundamentalism and Chinese commercial colonization.  One can admire an adversary though continue to oppose him.
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/underwire/2013/04/PussyRiot.jpg)

For instance, I see Barack Obama as a greater threat to US security than I do Putin.  I admire Putin more than I do former President Bill Clinton, because  former President Bill Clinton is not and has never been a man of honor.

(http://static.themoscowtimes.com/upload//photos/large/2000_08/2000_08_26//26seq12.jpg)
(http://static.themoscowtimes.com/upload//photos//large/2000_09/2000_09_21//21kursk2.jpg)

I oppose Putin and Putinism because he is not a democrat, he imprisons and sometimes kills people he disagrees with.  He has re-established Brezhnev-Stalinist corruption that Gorbachev and Yeltsin tried to dismantle.  He says he is an opponent of Oligarchs but his combat of Oligarchy has manifested itself in him becoming the biggest Oligarch.  He failed to save the Kursk sailors in compartments 08 & 09, he carried out false flag attacks on his country to whip up anti-Chechen feeling for another war, he killed Litvinenko, Politkovskaya and 26 journalists and counting.  He has slandered, robbed and imprisoned Khordovkovsky.  He has imprisoned Pussy Riot.  Look at what he did to Medvedev, Luzhkov and what he is doing to Navalny.  I am not a fan of most of these people especially Pussy Riot or Luzhkov  who has destroyed most of Moscow.  But what I do want is the rule of law to be applied to everyone and freedom of speech - the freedom to rationally follow one's conscience.   

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02002/Anna-Politkovskaya_2002682b.jpg)

If you think that Putinism is just a domestic threat, ask that same question to a Georgian, a Chechen, a Belarussian democrat or a Ukrainian.

(http://en.ria.ru/images/17815/24/178152431.jpg)

China threatens our regional interests in Asia.  We can compete with them on the world stage everywhere else because when asked an African, Asian or European all things equal, would you rather do business with an American firm or a Chinese firm, they want to do business with us.  China controls a lot of US policy through lobbying, corruption and undue influence.  If I were a Putinist, I would call that meddling.  But as a democrat, I'd call that part of the civic discourse and can easily overcome that with education, advocacy and paying off our national debt.

(http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/yushchenko.jpg)
Putin not Russia is our greatest geopolitical threat.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: mendeleyev on December 19, 2013, 03:30:38 AM
Then the Russians are right: we do not keep our word and lie/change when we find it convenient.

Is that our most honourable position?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 03:38:14 AM
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is the greatest Russian writer and thinker in the 20th century.  You wouldn't know that in Russia today.  But don't worry.   You wouldn't know that in America either.

Keep your hands on the football.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Anotherkiwi on December 19, 2013, 03:58:53 AM
1) Obama - let's address Obama first because he is the least American, most incompetent of the 4 and most Stalinist president in history. ...  Putin has placed his own personal pleasure at humiliating our President - a traitor, a coke addict and closet homosexual. 

lordtiberius, what's this "least American" rubbish?  He was born in the USA, just like the other Presidents you name, so he's as American as you.  One of his parents was born outside the USA, the same as you.  Does that make you any less American than (for example) Faux Pas, LAMan or Chicagoguy?  What about GQBlues?  He might be an American citizen now, but he was born in another country and (gasp!) spoke only a couple of words of English when he first set foot in the USA.  Doesn't that makes him even less of an American than anyone else?

Your anti-Obama ravings are beyond tiresome to anyone outside the Republicans on this forum.  Do you have ANY proof of any of the things which you allege above?  If not, try another tack, because I wasn't aware that your First Amendment rights of free speech cover defamation, however sincerely you may hold your peculiar beliefs.  Some of what you post is occasionally interesting, although less so now than a year ago - most appears to be arrant nonsense.  What next - Obama was behind 9/11, or was actually one of the Boston bombers?
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 09:34:01 AM
If you like Obama that much, you are free to vote for him in elections in your country.  I understand that he is just right of Helen Clark.  I am sure he would welcome the change as it would lighten the already rigorous work load he is engaged in.  You are free to tell yourself whatever you want but I wouldn't expect much hope or change from you new leader. 
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Muzh on December 19, 2013, 09:39:45 AM
lordtiberius, what's this "least American" rubbish?  He was born in the USA, just like the other Presidents you name, so he's as American as you.

Actually, it started because he is a nigr. And then it went downhill from there. It didn't help that the POTUS is a narcissistic scumbag.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 10:27:13 AM
I know that folks on the left accuse us on the right of being racists and no attempts of saying "we don't beat our wives"  measure up with any credibility with for these same folks.  I don't approve of the Ryan-Murray budget deal, but it is proof that bipartisanship is possible in DC.  The fact is the President's main allies are on the right.  I think Boehner, Ryan and McCain would LOVE to do deals with the first black President, but like Putin, his pride cuts his nose to spite his face.

 :offtopic:, you and I are getting screwed by Ryan-Murray
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 19, 2013, 01:01:16 PM
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is the greatest Russian writer and thinker in the 20th century.  You wouldn't know that in Russia today.  But don't worry.   You wouldn't know that in America either.

Keep your hands on the football.


You do know, when anti Semitism raised its head again in Russia, that his solution was for Jews to leave, right?  He stated, roughly translated, "No Jews, no problem."  He also advocated, before the collapse of the USSR, that the Republics be "released" and a "pan Slavic unity" be created among Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. 


Solzhenitsyn's works are written at a very simple level.  He doesn't complete with 20th century Russian writers such as Bulgakov, Nabokov, Sholokov (or whoever actually wrote And Quiet Flows the Don), or, of course, Tolstoy who, although primarily identified as a 19th century writer, wrote into the 20th century.


As for intellectuals, Berdyaev and Kapitsa were intellectual giants in a way Solzhenitsyn never was.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 03:15:28 PM

You do know, when anti Semitism raised its head again in Russia, that his solution was for Jews to leave, right?  He stated, roughly translated, "No Jews, no problem."  He also advocated, before the collapse of the USSR, that the Republics be "released" and a "pan Slavic unity" be created among Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. 


Solzhenitsyn's works are written at a very simple level.  He doesn't complete with 20th century Russian writers such as Bulgakov, Nabokov, Sholokov (or whoever actually wrote And Quiet Flows the Don), or, of course, Tolstoy who, although primarily identified as a 19th century writer, wrote into the 20th century.


As for intellectuals, Berdyaev and Kapitsa were intellectual giants in a way Solzhenitsyn never was.

How many of the writers you mentioned have been to the gulag?  How many of those writers you mentioned fought in World War II and won commendations for bravery?  How can you esteem Solzhenitsyn so poorly when you have never read the escape attempts of Grigori Tenno, the Hungarian youth in captivity and the man who told the secret history of the gulag uprisings?

It would be nice for once if one would actually substantiate what one believes with facts that support one's argument.  Even the pope does that. No one likes a know it all or a ninny especially a know it all who is consistently wrong it all.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 19, 2013, 03:33:19 PM
How many of the writers you mentioned have been to the gulag?  How many of those writers you mentioned fought in World War II and won commendations for bravery?  How can you esteem Solzhenitsyn so poorly when you have never read the escape attempts of Grigori Tenno, the Hungarian youth in captivity and the man who told the secret history of the gulag uprisings?

Being in a gulag or being a Red Army soldier does not make one a great literary figure, nor an intellectual. If is did, there would be millions of Soviet citizens who would qualify.  What Solzhenitsyn wrote was important to the West, but so well known as to be banal in the USSR. 

It would have been difficult for Bulgakov to have served in WWII, since he died before Operation Barbarossa.  He did volunteer with the Red Cross in WWI, as he was a trained physician, and he served, and was injured, at the front.  That injury is likely what lead to his later morphine addiction.

Sholokhov was older.  He fought with the Bolsheviks as a 13 year old during the Civil War.  He worked as a correspondent, covering the Soviet war effort, during WWII.  His mother was killed during the war.

Tolstoy's later life pacifism is well documented.  Surely you are not comparing the literary works of Solzhenitsyn with those of Tolstoy?

Berdyaev was a Marxist, who was twice questioned by the Bolsheviks once in power, and never backed down from his ideas.  He was exiled by them.

Kapitsa returned to the USSR from abroad.  He told Beria that Beria had no understanding of science.  For that, Beria wanted Kapitsa executed, but Stalin intervened.  So, I think on a bravery scale, he was no slouch.  His discoveries were ground breaking in the world of physics. 
Quote
It would be nice for once if one would actually substantiate what one believes with facts that support one's argument.  Even the pope does that. No one likes a know it all or a ninny especially a know it all who is consistently wrong it all.

Yes, I agree.  It would be nice if you supported your arguments with facts. :)   I would hazard a guess that before you sought a UW, you knew little of Ukraine's politics or culture.  I commend you for your reading, but it is still a little limited.

When I was learning Russian, I read the works of Solzhenitsyn as the language and ideas presented were  simple and easy to read.  There really is no deep thinking required to access Solzhenitsyn's works.  I cannot say the same about Dostoyevsky or Bulgakov.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 05:28:17 PM
de gustibus non est disputandum
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 19, 2013, 05:43:35 PM
True, and if you view Solzhenitsyn as a great writer, that is your right.  I don't deny that.  I just disagree.   Important?  Yes, absolutely.



Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 06:09:26 PM
You are a smart lady.  I am going to check out the writers you have cited.  I accept your critique of my view of Ukrainian, Russian or Slavic politics and culture as being limited.  And whatever grudges you bear against me, you cannot say that I do not esteem your grasp of  politics, culture and human nature.

(http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/3.19.13-Saddam-Hussein-Statue-Iraq.jpg)

I really like Solzhenitsyn.  I like Bulgakov too.  Bulgakov as a satirist and a story teller built this amazing world that I didn't want to end.  Bulgakov is a better narrative fiction writer than Solzhenitsyn.  But Solzhenitsyn told the truth and told many stories about people whom suffered these horrible and unjust fates. Dostoevsky and Tolstoy like Pushkin were 19th century thinkers though they prophesied about Stalin.  Bulgakov and Solzhenitsyn suffered under Stalin.  Solzhenitsyn gave Russia and the world a prescription on how to heal from Stalinism.  We still haven't followed it and Stalinism is relevant in our world today.

(http://shatterthelookingglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/heraldsun.jpg)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 19, 2013, 06:46:35 PM
I bear no grudge against you, LT.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: JayH on December 19, 2013, 08:54:11 PM
   I would hazard a guess that before you sought a UW, you knew little of Ukraine's politics or culture.  I commend you for your reading, but it is still a little limited.


MrsB  that is probably true of almost everyone. LT has done a very fair job of educating himself on the topic and should be commended for it-- regardless of  conclusions of what is "right" and "wrong".
If every guy on the forum took as serious and interest the world would be a better place !! :)
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2013, 08:57:25 PM
I have said a lot of messed up things - some of them were to you. You accused me of trolling.  It's true and what I have said and did is wrong.  I said these things in a public forum. I should apologize in public forum.  I apologize.  You have a right to reject my apology, question its sincerity or demand it formed to your liking.  I accede to your demands.
(http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Gulag_Location_Map.png/400px-Gulag_Location_Map.png)
You know a lot about Ukrainian, Russian and Soviet culture, politics and history.  You are apart of that great Ukrainian Canadian diaspora that is influencing events overseas.  I personally have benefitted from your wisdom as have others.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Sholokhov-1938.jpg)
Solzhenitsyn accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  And the criticisms against Pasternak as a collaborator seem more valid for Sholokhov.  You have read them and have suffered at the hands of these people.  Does  Sholokhov have a consistent voice?  Is he a collaborator?  What about his work inspires you to regard him as aesthetically superior to Solzhenitsyn?
(http://www.anglonautes.com/history/hist_us_20_cold_war/hist_us_20_cold_war_cov_solzhenitsyn_time_1974.jpg)
Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: Boethius on December 20, 2013, 05:51:40 PM
Quote
You accused me of trolling.  It's true and what I have said and did is wrong.  I said these things in a public forum. I should apologize in public forum.  I apologize. 

Everyone posts something they later regret.  Yours were not the worst forms of trolling, nor even close the worst posted to me, so there is no need to apologize, but I appreciate it nevertheless.

Quote
Solzhenitsyn accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  And the criticisms against Pasternak as a collaborator seem more valid for Sholokhov.  You have read them and have suffered at the hands of these people.  Does  Sholokhov have a consistent voice?  Is he a collaborator?  What about his work inspires you to regard him as aesthetically superior to Solzhenitsyn?

Others also accused Sholokhov of plagiarism.  The better half believes And Quiet Flows the Don was written by a real Cossack officer, confiscated, and sold as Sholokhov's work.  This was a common occurrence in the USSR.  Works of academics and artists, who were either dead, killed by the Bolsheviks, or marginalized, often had their works confiscated and given to the "tested and true".

In the 1980's, a Norwegian mathematician claimed to have developed a computer programme which proved Sholokhov wrote the novel.  Since that time, unpublished chapters of the manuscript have also been found, in Sholokhov's handwriting.  I don't know what the answer is.

I have read And Quiet Flows the Don in English only.  But the depth and complexity of the characters and the portrayal of their life is more refined than Solzhenitsyn's works.  As I posted, Solzhenitsyn's language is quite simple.  But, as I have not read the former in Russian, I can't make a comparison on that point.

Sholokhov was a committed Bolshevik.  So, he was part of the "system" from the very beginning.  Pasternak did lure others back from exile, knowing they would be executed.  I don't know if he regretted that later, but it was on his soul.
Title: Re: 5 Things You Should Know About Current Ukrainian Crisis
Post by: lordtiberius on December 22, 2013, 01:40:00 PM
huge Euromaidan rally in Dniperpratrosk
http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25208978.html