Top U.S. general says it is time to consider arming Ukrainian forces

[LiveFromUkraine]

lfu   read what i have posted,
your comprehension skills need some work id say mate ,

It sounds like the amount of skin you have in Ukraine doesn't warrant you getting involved, eh?  How is that for comprehension?


So, would you be for giving weapons to Ukraine if you knew it would start WW3?

you dont work for RT by any chance do you ?

SX

Why, RT thinks you guys are full of it as well?

[southernX]

lfu

howd you go with that reading malarkey ??
are you starting to comprehend what was posted yet ?

not very good it seems
SX

[LiveFromUkraine]

lfu

howd you go with that reading malarkey ??
are you starting to comprehend what was posted yet ?

not very good it seems
SX

Ok, we have established you having family there isn't enough for you to go and fight on their behalf.

Would you be for giving weapons to Ukraine if you knew it would start WW3?  I see you keep passing on this question.

[southernX]

Would you be for giving weapons to Ukraine if you knew it would start WW3?  I see you keep passing on this question.

'i am for giving ukraine weapons to defend itself , if you had of read my posts you would know this already ,

''if ''the giving of those weapons was to escalalte then lead to ww3 , which it may , then so be it , giving putin a diplomatic only pass in ukraine is a bad option , at every oppurtunity he has escalated anyway

the world will pay in regards to ukraine , pay now or pay later but we will pay , much better to pay now if it escalates ,

putin is not mad , it s a risk id take if i had the power to authorise weapons to ukraine right now

SX

[LiveFromUkraine]

'i am for giving ukraine weapons to defend itself , if you had of read my posts you would know this already ,

''if ''the giving of those weapons was to escalalte then lead to ww3 , which it may , then so be it , giving putin a diplomatic only pass in ukraine is a bad option , at every oppurtunity he has escalated anyway

the world will pay in regards to ukraine , pay now or pay later but we will pay , much better to pay now if it escalates ,

putin is not mad , it s a risk id take if i had the power to authorise weapons to ukraine right now

SX

I appreciate the answer.  I don't have a problem sending weapons myself.  I do think Europe should take the lead on this and it seems they are not really wanting too.  I do not think the US should take point on this.

[southernX]

Ok, we have established you having family there isn't enough for you to go and fight on their behalf.

LOL , you have established bugger all , except what evers going on in your head

SX

[bagalia]

Pushing each other around the locker room is going nowhere. WW3? We are overdue for it and it is not likely to be put off forever. If not Russia then Iran or North Korea or any of a handful of places will start it. Maybe it will be us. I am all for it as maybe it will correct the course we are on now.

It is simple. The world believes there is no war solution to Ukraine's problem. Some here believe the same.

Putin believes there is a war solution in Ukraine.

Putin is winning.

There is always a war solution. Be a party to the solution or eventually be a consequence of it.

[southernX]

LFU ..I don't have a problem sending weapons myself.  I do think Europe should take the lead on this and it seems they are not really wanting too.  I do not think the US should take point on this.

so even without you reading my prior posts we are on the same path of action here

 however it is plainly clear the EU [merkel and friends]  are not going to do much , not until they are swamped by little green men at some time in the next decade or so

 as the next signatory the US is coming under pressure to step up , not doing so is causing  them a lot of damage at present , this is imo playing into putins hands

bagalia There is always a war solution. Be a party to the solution or eventually be a consequence of it.

agree 100%

SX

[LiveFromUkraine]

so even without you reading my prior posts we are on the same path of action here

 however it is plainly clear the EU [merkel and friends]  are not going to do much , not until they are swamped by little green men at some time in the next decade or so

 as the next signatory the US is coming under pressure to step up , not doing so is causing  them a lot of damage at present , this is imo playing into putins hands
SX

 If allies are to work together, they need to work together.  I don't know if EU is stopping the weapons support or not.  I don't particularly know if it would be a good idea to bypass that relationship to send weapons if it really is the EU (Germany?) interfering.


I don't see the US being damaged as much as NATO.  NATO is showing itself to be toothless and countries will take notice.


I don't trust the Kiev government.  I think the Ukrainian people are great and deserve better but the government isn't to be trusted.  I have a hard time reconciling helping when it comes to the corrupt officials benefiting far more than the average citizen.

[JayH]

I don't trust the Kiev government.  I think the Ukrainian people are great and deserve better but the government isn't to be trusted.  I have a hard time reconciling helping when it comes to the corrupt officials benefiting far more than the average citizen.

The problem I have with that comment is multi-faceted.
In case you missed it--there is a new government in Kiev--one not dominated by thieving Russian agenda.
Your personal experience was in fact many years ago and thus- now irrelevant.What is relevant now,the whole nation revolted against corrupt government-- so why cant you move into today and support Ukrainian freedom --and note-free from corruption.Please do not bother with the -"they are all the same crap"-- it only shows you are fixed in yesteryear.No one disputes there is a long way to go-- but without a Russian invasion to deal with-the government would be a lot further down the anti corruption path than they are already.

Thirdly--I find it extremely ironic that you are so pro-Russia and anti Ukraine-- given your beef with Kiev-- and that your personal experience was in an area now occupied by Russia--with in essence-- the same crooks in control  you complain about!!

Now I could add-- you are a bitter & twisted  reject and a failure at making a life in Ukraine-- some girl handed you your arse on a plate !!-- and  you cannot get past it.

btw genuis-- NATO getting damaged-- who makes up NATO? NATO will not fail- it is too important to too many countries-- and now it is about to be tested.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The problem I have with that comment is multi-faceted.
In case you missed it--there is a new government in Kiev--one not dominated by thieving Russian agenda.
Your personal experience was in fact many years ago and thus- now irrelevant.What is relevant now,the whole nation revolted against corrupt government-- so why cant you move into today and support Ukrainian freedom --and note-free from corruption.Please do not bother with the -"they are all the same crap"-- it only shows you are fixed in yesteryear.No one disputes there is a long way to go-- but without a Russian invasion to deal with-the government would be a lot further down the anti corruption path than they are already.

Thirdly--I find it extremely ironic that you are so pro-Russia and anti Ukraine-- given your beef with Kiev-- and that your personal experience was in an area now occupied by Russia--with in essence-- the same crooks in control  you complain about!!

Now I could add-- you are a bitter & twisted  reject and a failure at making a life in Ukraine-- some girl handed you your arse on a plate !!-- and  you cannot get past it.

btw genuis-- NATO getting damaged-- who makes up NATO? NATO will not fail- it is too important to too many countries-- and now it is about to be tested.

Only an idiot would think I am pro-Russian and it is isn't a real shocker that you think that way.  Your cheer leading of the Ukrainian government is on par with your other ridiculous statements on this forum.   


Funny, you have been going to Ukraine for how many years and still not married.  You're nothing but a sex tourist and probably a lousy one at that.  I would think the currency dying there would be a huge bump in your hobby.  Hopefully the war will get over faster so you can continue your vacations.

[Chelseaboy]

The feedback i'm getting from Ukrainians living in and outside of the current war zone is that the current government in Ukraine is as corrupt as it ever was.

It's in their DNA...so it's no real surprise.

What's been happening in Ukraine is a war instigated by crooks against other crooks..with Putler....another crook....happily fanning the flames to increase his power over the region.

The big question is should NATO risk starting WW3 over a local gang war from which the end result will be one bunch of crooked oligarchs/wannabees benefiting at the expense of another bunch of crooked oligarchs ?

[jone]

I don't view LFU as pro-Russian.  Far from it.  I do think he stirs the pot from time to time.  As for the Ukrainian government being corrupt - absolutely.  Why should this government be any different from the previous governments?  The Rada is still basically the same bunch that was in power before Maidan. 

Until the needed reforms are written into laws, and then acted upon, nothing will change.  Certainly in the time of war there are no watchdog groups or organizations and arms of the government to enforce these new laws.  It will take Ukraine at least ten years to turn their ship of state and enact meaningful reforms to stop the corruption.   Until then, expect more of the same.

Poroshenko knew this when he took office.  He can be a figurehead, and in my opinion he is a good one, but a country of 44 million is not going to change overnight.

[fathertime]

lol  Now, we are getting somewhere.  FT was correct, you and others like 'fight for me or be a coward" AC want others to fight the fight while you sit back and say you are willing to do what needs to be done.  Yet you won't do anything until you are "called up" to fight.


Surely your values are strong enough to warrant action without being told.  I am sure the Ukraine army will love to have you fighting the good fight.


 
You have skin in the game.  You have family there yet you sit in Oz doing nothing.

So much bravado and so little substance.

This I agree with....if these non-US citizens know so much, and talk such a big game about what we should be doing, but feel like they would be useless with a rifle then let them be there serving chow, or digging ditches, or clearing toilets....it is the definition of cowardly to be to afraid to take action when there is a cause a person believes in, but is too afraid to act on. 


Instead they try to insist that we send our kids...to fight THEIR war...get out there SX JAYH fight your fight, set up a unit....this should not be the US's issue...we get in there and it escalates, almost without a doubt....this doesn't need to be the world's war. 


Fathertime!     

[Faux Pas]

I appreciate the answer.  I don't have a problem sending weapons myself.  I do think Europe should take the lead on this and it seems they are not really wanting too.  I do not think the US should take point on this.

I agree Europe and more specifically Germany and Britain should take the lead. Because they are not, is giving Obama the out he so desperately wants. Obama is agenda driven and Ukraine nor Russia for that matter is on that agenda

[fathertime]

The big question is should NATO risk starting WW3 over a local gang war from which the end result will be one bunch of crooked oligarchs/wannabees benefiting at the expense of another bunch of crooked oligarchs ?

Well said....it is NOT worth the risks,in addition much of the populace is either apathetic (considering) and some are pro-russian.   we (the US) can stay out militarily...it is ok to do that in this case....


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Thirdly--I find it extremely ironic that you are so pro-Russia and anti Ukraine-- given your beef with Kiev-- and that your personal experience was in an area now occupied by Russia--with in essence-- the same crooks in control  you complain about!!

Now I could add-- you are a bitter & twisted  reject and a failure at making a life in Ukraine-- some girl handed you your arse on a plate !!-- and  you cannot get past it.

what a bunch of stupid comments....LFU has already given an honest breakdown of his time in Ukraine and it sounds like it was a great time.....Don't see the 'bitter and twisted' part from him at all....YOU on the other hand seem to have some serious issues.  Just because much of the world and some here don't agree with your silly viewpoint, doesn't mean they are pro-russian...that is just getting upset again, why aren't you there fighting if you feel so strongly that everybody else should be there fighting for your beliefs?


Fathertime! 

[AC]

I don't view LFU as pro-Russian.  Far from it.  I do think he stirs the pot from time to time.  As for the Ukrainian government being corrupt - absolutely.  Why should this government be any different from the previous governments?  The Rada is still basically the same bunch that was in power before Maidan. 

Until the needed reforms are written into laws, and then acted upon, nothing will change.  Certainly in the time of war there are no watchdog groups or organizations and arms of the government to enforce these new laws.  It will take Ukraine at least ten years to turn their ship of state and enact meaningful reforms to stop the corruption.   Until then, expect more of the same.

Poroshenko knew this when he took office.  He can be a figurehead, and in my opinion he is a good one, but a country of 44 million is not going to change overnight.

The Ukrainian government in Kiev being corrupt is just as good as any reason to arm the Ukrainian Army guys doing the actual fighting.  They've said that when the fighting is over they might go to Kiev and turn their weapons against the corrupt politicians.  Perhaps the threat alone, or the whisper of the threat, would make those guys in Kiev more transparent.

Not arming Ukraine is the worse choice as it would allow Putin to get his land bridge and eventually threaten NATO and the EU.  In answer to the suggestion that Europe take the lead, that would be nice but we saw in Minsk II that Germany and France had no problems appeasing Putin.  The USA has always been the most important leader of NATO.  I'm praying that my President might act Presidential.

[Brasscasing]

I would disagree with those that are suggesting that:

1) It's non US citizens asking to put America's sons and daughters in harms way; or

2) That it's out of line for citizens of allied countries asking for the US to get involved by sending lethal aid or military intervention.

The US congress is as eager as any of this forum's non US citizens to get moving as well...

Boehner, other top House members urge weapons for Ukraine

..."(Reuters) - U.S. House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner and other senior Republican and Democratic House members urged U.S. President Barack Obama to quickly authorize lethal weapons for Ukraine as it battles Russian-backed separatists, according to a letter released on Thursday.

"We urge you to quickly approve additional efforts to support Ukraine’s efforts to defend its sovereign territory, including through the transfer of lethal, defensive weapons systems to the Ukrainian military," they wrote in a letter, dated Wednesday and signed by eight Republicans and three Democrats."...

..."The House and U.S. Senate voted unanimously late last year for a bill authorizing Obama to provide weapons to Kiev but he has yet to decide whether to send any."...

This shows appropriate concern by US lawmakers not just non US forum participants. We are not in the minority here or in the meat world. There is overwhelming support for arming Ukraine. The White House is becoming increasingly isolated in it's stubborn refusal to do the right thing.

..."U.S. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have expressed frustration with what many see as the Obama administration's resistance to providing weapons despite what they see as increased Russian aggression."...

This statement pretty well sums it up. Why? What is Obama's reasoning/justification for not arming Ukraine? There is none as far as I can tell.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/05/us-ukraine-crisis-congress-idUSKBN0M11V120150305

As to part 2;  Foreign countries sons and daughters have and continue to place themselves in harms way at America's behest, even today, right now infact. Best those who comment on those of us who support curtailing Russian aggression as talking a big game or that it's ok to stay out in this case remember that.

To read some of the narratives above you'd think those that support arming or military intervention are supporting/lobbying for something the US hasn't asked it's foreign allies for numerous times already.

I realize that the current administration is an anomaly and should not be an indicator of how the US will act in the future but President Obama's damaging inaction towards Ukraine will have far reaching consequences beyond his time in office.

I'd suggest that it will take years to undo the damage he's already caused with US allies, NATO and as the de facto leader of the free world in general. It may already be irreversible.

The US has asked for and received allied support/assistance in every military endeavor since Gulf 1 a military intervention to liberate Kuwait, a non aligned, non NATO country, after being invaded and annexed by Iraq. Coincidently enough, Iraq's invasion edit: of Kuwait was justified through calls to Iraqi nationalism. Kuwait was described as a natural part of Iraq that was usurped by British imperialism. Does that sound familiar?

Brass

[lordtiberius]

There are 200 countries in this small planet.  Many of them are corrupt including our own.  Is that a pretext for invasion and slaughter?

No Jone.  lFU is a pro-Russian. 

[AC]

Pushing each other around the locker room is going nowhere. WW3? We are overdue for it and it is not likely to be put off forever. If not Russia then Iran or North Korea or any of a handful of places will start it. Maybe it will be us. I am all for it as maybe it will correct the course we are on now.

It is simple. The world believes there is no war solution to Ukraine's problem. Some here believe the same.

Putin believes there is a war solution in Ukraine.

Putin is winning.

There is always a war solution. Be a party to the solution or eventually be a consequence of it.

Agree 1000%.  The time for diplomacy is over.  Putin is readying his Army for the invasion of Mariupol.  To convince his citizens that it's the right thing to do, his FSB/GRU operatives in E. Ukraine will trump-up some sort of humanitarian catastrophe and blame it on the "fascists" in Kiev.

Pacifists like to say that violence doesn't solve anything, but in certain situations violence solves everything.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Only an idiot would think I am pro-Russian

No Jone.  lFU is a pro-Russian.

I rest my case. 

[Steamer]

Agree 1000%.  The time for diplomacy is over.  Putin is readying his Army for the invasion of Mariupol.  To convince his citizens that it's the right thing to do, his FSB/GRU operatives in E. Ukraine will trump-up some sort of humanitarian catastrophe and blame it on the "fascists" in Kiev.

Do you mind sharing your evidence for this?

Pacifists like to say that violence doesn't solve anything, but in certain situations violence solves everything.
[/size]

[/size]
If the US and EU wouldn't send weapons when the fighting was hot what makes you think anything has changed now that things have cooled down?

[jone]

The Ukrainian government in Kiev being corrupt is just as good as any reason to arm the Ukrainian Army guys doing the actual fighting.  They've said that when the fighting is over they might go to Kiev and turn their weapons against the corrupt politicians.  Perhaps the threat alone, or the whisper of the threat, would make those guys in Kiev more transparent.

Not arming Ukraine is the worse choice as it would allow Putin to get his land bridge and eventually threaten NATO and the EU.  In answer to the suggestion that Europe take the lead, that would be nice but we saw in Minsk II that Germany and France had no problems appeasing Putin.  The USA has always been the most important leader of NATO.  I'm praying that my President might act Presidential.

I am now on record and have made known my opinion to my elected representatives that the US should arm Ukraine.

[AC]

I am now on record and have made known my opinion to my elected representatives that the US should arm Ukraine.

Ditto.  IIRC I did the form almost a month ago.