A Hit on Russia's Opposition

[Anotherkiwi]

First, Putin is not the side of the conflict. When you accept this idea, you'll get ability to foresee nearest future beyond propaganda noise. Putin exploit the conflict to reach own objectives,.

Totally agree, although I would remain neutral on whether or not Putin actually created the situation where the war in Donbas began.

...and next question will be what kind of objectives. Destroying of Ukraine is not one of them.

Again, I agree.  Putin needs Ukraine for so many reasons - but to be under Russia's thumb, not as an independent state.  How many times do we have to read that Putin does not consider Ukraine to be an independent country?

Next. Why I'd like Kiev to honor the Minsk-2 agreement. Because rebels will get more than they expected when uprising began. This agreement by any unbiassed estimation is endorsement of rebels victory.

Totally agree with the second part.  The way you've written this part of your response means that you support the rebels.  Is this what you really mean?

Because of that I see no prospects for implementation of agreement in full capacity, though Putin for sure will demand compliance with the agreement from both sides.

Agree again, but not for the same reasons.  The rebels never stopped fighting around Debaltseve, as one example, so why should Kyiv think for one moment that the rebels will ever honour the ceasefire?  As for Putin demanding compliance - dream on!

About lie Putin sell us.  Do you really believe thousands of Russian volunteers are fighting at Donbass and hundreds are dying because they bought  the lie? Come out of your fantasy world where guys bear black and white hats.

I'm really glad that you agree that real Russian troops are in Donbas.  Only those who totally believe the Kremlin's propaganda (i.e. nearly all of Russia) could possibly imagine that their own army is not involved.

[Belvis]

Putin needs Ukraine for so many reasons - but to be under Russia's thumb, not as an independent state.  How many times do we have to read that Putin does not consider Ukraine to be an independent country?

Independence is not the thing which depends on Putin's wish. It is what people of the state wish, fight for and work for. Putin consider Ukraine to be a neutral country. And of course he will resist Ukraine as an anti-Russian project. Sounds reasonable, isn't it?

The way you've written this part of your response means that you support the rebels.  Is this what you really mean?

Not quite clear what means support the rebels. Support in what? Let's say I wish them success because I consider them a part of my people separated during SU breakup.

I'm really glad that you agree that real Russian troops are in Donbas.  Only those who totally believe the Kremlin's propaganda (i.e. nearly all of Russia) could possibly imagine that their own army is not involved.

Well, you can call all Russians with guns there as troops but it would be not correct due to language norms and definition of Russian troops.
You know, not all Russians are on duty in Russian army    But to discuss this issue on more substantial basis let's wait until west officials present the evidences. I think they are very interested in that so we should see the facts, not read about in style: we know Russian army fights at Donbass but show you no proofs because we're honest and you should trust us. If you don't trust our words you under the influence of  Kremlin's propaganda 

[Darth_Budda]

It's funny how you call me a Putin troll,,,, I own no support to Putin... But I see world events in a different light...

A war between the USA and Russia would be very bad for the World. It would not make the lives of the average American or Russian better.

Only through dialog, respect and understand between our two countries will the world become a better place.

Does it make you more mad because I am a American and I am not towing the Obama line....

Like would you like me better if I stopped thinking for myself and just repeated FOX news....

[Shadow]

Poroshenko has appeared on tv to say that Nemtsov had recently received documentation that shows Russia's involvement in the war in Ukraine,and was about to release the information to the World.

Meanwhile the increasingly desperate Putinists on here are still in self-denial about their hero...with Shadows post's particularly ludicrous and The Natural doing what i predicted and  posting a link from the nut-job Paul Craig Roberts as his conspiracy defense.

There is more evidence for a hollow earth as for Putin being involved, and yet my post is ludicrous?
Sorry that I go by facts, not by wild accusations like you seem to do.

[BillyB]

When you accept this idea, you'll get ability to foresee nearest future beyond propaganda noise. Putin exploit the conflict to reach own objectives, and next question will be what kind of objectives. Destroying of Ukraine is not one of them.

You can see beyond propaganda noise and figure things out? What are Putin's objectives? You can't answer that. Most people in Russia can't answer that but you believe the propaganda fed to you so you give Putin an open check to do what he wants and you will support it. You say destroying Ukraine isn't one of his objectives but that is what's happening in Ukraine. Do you see Putin acting like Ghandi promoting peaceful non violent protests? Do you see Putin telling pro Russians speak in elections? Putin gives them guns, missiles and trained troops. Regardless if you believe Putin claims those trained troops are volunteers, they are in your Army and they can be called back by Putin. Putin can also seal the border better so nobody crosses.


You don't know what your president's goals are and you and your fellow citizens are willing to support it.



Russia has a new state of the art battle tank and air superiority fighter coming out this year. In the link below it states they plan to build the largest aircraft carrier in the world. Putin has increased the military budget by 30% this year alone regardless of what's happening to the economy. When Germany and Japan built some of the best and largest military equipment in the world, they used it. Are you ready to use some of these things Putin's building?


PUtin's arms race


Back on topic, Nemtsov was assassinated and short term there will be protests not favorable to Putin but long term Putin will benefit because anybody who knows his goals whether it be an oligarch, journalist, or fellow politician, are more likely to keep their mouths shut. Obviously the more people know, the more there will be protests. Those who do know should stay silent and live in fear.

[Gator]

Sort of like the disgust some people have for the mob'ers, eh?

If that is your opinion, fine.  Two points:

1.  A tribute is not the place to criticize the deceased, especially considering the meddle of the man and what he protested against in this world. 

2.  Some?  I recall one MOBer declaring by subtraction to be better than others and running a broad campaign of belittlement.  That chapter is closed, and some  MOBers now feel free to discuss their MOB life, something vastly more important to the mission of RWD than political debate. 

I noticed a lot of name calling lately.  Some by people who were critical of that type of behavior when exhibited by others.  That just goes to show that the problem may not be the people you guys keep pointing your fingers at.   For shame...

Thanks for the reminder.  If I regress again, feel free to remind me to be tolerant. 

[jone]

Independence is not the thing which depends on Putin's wish. It is what people of the state wish, fight for and work for. Putin consider Ukraine to be a neutral country. And of course he will resist Ukraine as an anti-Russian project. Sounds reasonable, isn't it?
Not quite clear what means support the rebels. Support in what? Let's say I wish them success because I consider them a part of my people separated during SU breakup.
Well, you can call all Russians with guns there as troops but it would be not correct due to language norms and definition of Russian troops.
You know, not all Russians are on duty in Russian army    But to discuss this issue on more substantial basis let's wait until west officials present the evidences. I think they are very interested in that so we should see the facts, not read about in style: we know Russian army fights at Donbass but show you no proofs because we're honest and you should trust us. If you don't trust our words you under the influence of  Kremlin's propaganda 

Once again, we see the FSB line. 

I have talked to MANY Russians, in their homes in Russia and they do not feel as you do.  But this thread is not about Minsk II.  It is about the death of a patriot and leader of the opposition to Putin.  You pollute it and add nothing to the conversation of the thread.

I sense a diversion from the original topic because you cannot spin it to the proper talking points without looking ridiculous.

Why did you ignore my post up above and keep on with Minsk II when I asked you your take on the murder and the topic of this thread?

Is it because it is uncomfortable to talk about?  Is it because you cannot logically point to CIA involvement as you are want to do?  Is it because we cut through all of your FSB BS and are able to see you for who you are?

Belvis, if anyone represented the interests of the FSB on this site better than you, I sure don't know who they are.

[Gator]

It's funny how you call me a Putin troll,,,, I own no support to Putin... But I see world events in a different light..

I am not sure who you addressed this to (such is the problem when you do not use the Quote function).  However, it could apply to almost all of us so I gladly will take the ball.

I accused you of different things but not a Putin troll.  Nevertheless, it seems you are listening to a Putin troll.  Choose what you want to hear: the opinion of your cyber-friend claiming to be an ex-Marine fighting in combat against a people defending their sovereign territory.  Or you could believe the heads of state of most G20 nations, who developed their positions based on various levels of intelligence analyzed independently by their highly trained staffs.

A war between the USA and Russia would be very bad for the World. It would not make the lives of the average American or Russian better.

Duh!

Only through dialog, respect and understand between our two countries will the world become a better place.

That is just swell.  Really peachy.  One problem, the FSU and especially Putin do not work this way. 

In another thread you wondered how Poroshenko could be elected President.  You believed your everyday electrical engineer (I forget your exact words) would be a better leader.  Politics in the FSU is no holds barred, dirty hardball, including the mass murder of innocent citizens.     Ukrainians know an honest, kind and gentle soul could never succeed against such foes.   Poroshenko was elected because in part he has proven he can do what is necessary to win big battles where anything goes.   

Does it make you more mad because I am a American and I am not towing the Obama line....

   

FYI, I abhor Obama, and believe him even worse than Bush and almost as bad as Carter.  Don't get me started; he soon will be gone and even Hillary would be an improvement.

Like would you like me better if I stopped thinking for myself and just repeated FOX news....

This is getting really rich now.  Fox news is crap.  I watch it maybe 1% of the time.   My favorite newscasts are PBS, Al Jazeera, and CNN, in that order.   I tend to get most of my news about Ukraine from RWD, vetting the source (both the member and his/her source before digesting).   Suggestion for you:  read mendeleyev and Boethius. You pissed mendy off yesterday, and that is difficult to do as he is very diplomatic.   What does that tell you?   I will help - it says educate yourself more before shooting. 

[Boethius]

Local elections will show who represent the local population. And I'm pretty sure the word "terrorists" will be substituted in Kiev for "partners" soon. If Kiev wants to follow Minsk-2 agreement, of course.
Unless you considered majority of locals at Donbass as terrorists because they reject to be part of failed corrupted state of Ukraine under previous conditions. In that case you still have the option, war to the last Ukrainian.

The leader of the LNR has stated that no one unapproved by the leadership will be allowed to run.  So, how open, free, and democratic will those "elections" be? 

[LiveFromUkraine]

If that is your opinion, fine.  Two points:

1.  A tribute is not the place to criticize the deceased, especially considering the meddle of the man and what he protested against in this world. 

This is a discussion forum.  I suggest not posting at all if you or others here can't handle posts that you believe are not warranted.

2.  Some?  I recall one MOBer declaring by subtraction to be better than others and running a broad campaign of belittlement.  That chapter is closed, and some  MOBers now feel free to discuss their MOB life, something vastly more important to the mission of RWD than political debate. 

I don't know, your posts have shown that you believe you are above others and have had a somewhat belittlement campaign going against other posters.  FT for example.  Personally, I don't have a problem with heated exchanges.  Let's just not pretend to be above those types of exchanges, ok?


On the political front, I do believe it is getting rather tedious here with all the political commentary.

Thanks for the reminder.  If I regress again, feel free to remind me to be tolerant.

It's not about being tolerant.  The real question you should be asking yourself is why you can't handle differences of opinion.


Narcissim, maybe, or some issues happening in real life that is spilling over unto your posts?  In any case, you have control over how you react.  You can allow things to get to you to the point you need to exercise tolerance or you can just laugh it off. 

[Belvis]

You can see beyond propaganda noise and figure things out? What are Putin's objectives? You can't answer that.

Why not? Putin's objectives can be understood on the assumption of his advance for  favorable strategic position of Russia in the world. Next step we can discuss of what  interests countries pursue in contemporary world.

You say destroying Ukraine isn't one of his objectives but that is what's happening in Ukraine. Do you see Putin acting like Ghandi promoting peaceful non violent protests? Do you see Putin telling pro Russians speak in elections?

So you blame Putin for regular Maidans in Ukraine, for ongoing corruption there, for the fact that population of Ukraine has shrinked about 10% during 23 years of independence.  OK, Putin here, Putin there, Putin everywhere     If you suppose  Putin personality is in the roots of the conflict you'll never grasp the conflict.
About elections. Do you remember that Putin asked Donbass to postpone  their referendum about independence? Political solution is what he always called for.  And again, it seems you want to promote peaceful non violent protests among tanks of Ukrainian army and battalions of Ukrainians nationalists. Force escalates  violence , the law of any conflict. Putin equals the chances in the conflict as colonel Colt did.

Why did you ignore my post up above and keep on with Minsk II when I asked you your take on the murder and the topic of this thread?

Sorry John. I again have deviated from your demand. I hope you understand that Minsk-2 is much more important than the murder. Besides my boss in FSB will cut my bonus if I stop Russian propaganda 

[Brasscasing]

Russia has a new state of the art battle tank and air superiority fighter coming out this year. In the link below it states they plan to build the largest aircraft carrier in the world. Putin has increased the military budget by 30% this year alone regardless of what's happening to the economy. When Germany and Japan built some of the best and largest military equipment in the world, they used it. Are you ready to use some of these things Putin's building?


PUtin's arms race

Billy, Please stop worrying about what Russia's gonna build and worry about what they have.

The aircraft carrier is pie in the sky and pablum for the Russian masses. Even if they laid the keel tomorrow it'd a decade away from operational duty.

The Sukoi T-50, fighter is scheduled to start being delivered in 2016.

What Tank are you talking about? The T-14, still on the drawing board or the T-95 that was cancelled in 2010 with a few prototypes still floating about?

If you're talking about the T-90sm that tank is barely comparable to the current 3rd generation tanks employed by a dozen countries or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armata_Universal_Combat_Platform

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t95.htm

http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-will-have-55-stealth-sukhoi-t-50-fighters-2020-are-they-good-us-stealth-jets-1763583

We discussed this earlier. All this stuff is Russia promising itself to have a modernized military by 2020. Even if they role a few prototypes off the assembly line this year they'd have nowhere near the numbers to make a difference (think German Tiger 2 at the end of the WW2, most formidable tank on the planet for it's time but only a few dozen in the field).

What you're talking about just doesn't exist yet.

Having said that the longer the west lollygags about picking it's nose the more time Putin has to put together his modernized military machine.

Brass

[The Natural]

This is a discussion forum.  I suggest not posting at all if you or others here can't handle posts that you believe are not warranted.

Bingo! You really nailed it there. Even the self-professed "moderate" posters, that say they hold the middle ground, want to know both sides of the argument and protest strong Language from pro-Russian posters (in response to provocations), then sooner or later resort to name-calling and labels IF anyone dare to question the western dogma of this issue.

[Belvis]

The leader of the LNR has stated that no one unapproved by the leadership will be allowed to run.  So, how open, free, and democratic will those "elections" be?

I doubt he said that. Nevertheless impossible to hold democratic elections in war torn region. But it is the step in right direction, either elections or guns talk.

[Gator]

This is a discussion forum.  I suggest not posting at all if you or others here can't handle posts that you believe are not warranted. 

Pot...kettle...black   (e. g., you and LT).

I don't know, your posts have shown that you believe you are above others and have had a somewhat belittlement campaign going against other posters.  FT for example. 

I don't feel above or below you?  Should I?  FT is a special case based on inside information.  No more comment or I might be pushed over the edge of not being able to handle it.   

On the political front, I do believe it is getting rather tedious here with all the political commentary.

Agree.  Hopefully the cease fire becomes a long-term stalemate and Poroshenko and the Ukrainian people can address the reforms needed to break from the centuries of subordination to Russia.  You lived there.  I assume you have good Ukrainian friends wanting the same.  You never mention this yet most here would find it relevant.  These are real friends with whom I presume you shared food, drink and talk; they are not chatroom buddies. 

It's not about being tolerant.  The real question you should be asking yourself is why you can't handle differences of opinion.


Narcissim, maybe, or some issues happening in real life that is spilling over unto your posts?  In any case, you have control over how you react.  You can allow things to get to you to the point you need to exercise tolerance or you can just laugh it off.

Thank you Sigmund.      Do you frequently analyze people from afar?  Hopefully you can not point to posts where I have done an unsolicited, psychological analysis.  I have made so many, so it is possible after drink.

[Gator]

Bingo! You really nailed it there. Even the self-professed "moderate" posters, that say they hold the middle ground, want to know both sides of the argument and protest strong Language from pro-Russian posters (in response to provocations), then sooner or later resort to name-calling and labels IF anyone dare to question the western dogma of this issue.

Hopefully no one would ever use names such as "fucker" or racial epithets such as "brownie."

[Gator]

There is more evidence for a hollow earth as for Putin being involved, and yet my post is ludicrous?
Sorry that I go by facts, not by wild accusations like you seem to do.

One question:  I am not saying Putin is involved directly, yet assuming he were, would we ever see such evidence? 

America has seen its share of political assassinations in the past, yet those were Lone Wolves and not professionals.  The assassinations in Russia appear so professional to suggest broad conspiracies. 

[Gator]

Darth_Vader,

I mentioned that PBS is my favorite source for news.   Their documentaries tend to  lean to the left.  I watch them and I learn.  I suggest you take less than an hour and watch the following from PBS (if you have not already seen it):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/putins-way/

[Boethius]

I doubt he said that. Nevertheless impossible to hold democratic elections in war torn region. But it is the step in right direction, either elections or guns talk.

He was filmed so stating.  What is the use of holding elections if they are undemocratic?   You may as well go back to the Soviet tactic of one person on the ballot, and allowing others to drop your ballot off for you.

[jone]

Sorry John. I again have deviated from your demand. I hope you understand that Minsk-2 is much more important than the murder. Besides my boss in FSB will cut my bonus if I stop Russian propaganda 

Then why do you not talk about Minsk II on the other threads where the topic is appropriate? Answer:  Because you can't spin the murder.

To me, the most important thing that is ongoing in Russia is the movement to a totalitarian police state.  Yet you cannot even comment on it because it doesn't fit your narrative. 

Put the Minsk II debate on the other threads where the debate belongs.  Keep to the op's topic. 

[jone]

And Belvis?

Yes, I do think that you are paid to come up with the paid troll's line.  The topic of the murder of the top opposition leader in Moscow is what this thread is about.  You have chosen not to comment on it, even though it is the topic of this thread.  Your dis-information is to stick to topics you can control.

I would cry out with pain if the leader of the party of the opposition in the United States was killed.  It would create a tremendous amount of discussion.  But you think Minsk II is much more important.  SHAME ON YOU.  No one believes you.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Pot...kettle...black   (e. g., you and LT).

Typical, missed the point.  I have no problem with my exchange with LT.  He certainly doesn't get me emotional to where I need to exhibit tolerance.  You are the one that has expressed problems with those types of exchanges.    Yet you are doing so throughout the forum.  Indeed, Pot..Kettle.. Gator.

Thank you Sigmund.      Do you frequently analyze people from afar?  Hopefully you can not point to posts where I have done an unsolicited, psychological analysis.

One doesn't need to be Sigmund to understand you Gator.  You're not that complex. Then again, you seem to enjoy analyzing people in some of your posts.


  I do enjoy pointing out the irony of you and others here complaining how mean some members are yet can't see how you do the same.

I have made so many, so it is possible after drink.

]That certainly doesn't help your "tolerance" but a lovely excuse when things get heated.     

[jone]

I believe Russia is just now waking up to the fact that the death of an opposition leader by murder on the streets is a sign to the rest of the world that Russia is not civilized.  The fact that Russian mouthpieces on this forum cannot grasp that the world sees this as a degradation of the Russian civilization, is, in and of itself, a tragedy.

The wold went through the death of opposition leaders when the Brown Shirts and the Night of the Long Knives destroyed the opposition to the Nazi party in Germany in 1934.  Now we are seeing the rise of the same tactics by the ruling parties in Russia.

I agree with Mendy in his assessment of the situation:  Martin Niemoller speaks the truth.

But the world is beginning to wake up.  This incident will be laid on top of all of the other things that have happened in the recent past.  The effect is cumulative, and the actions cannot be ignored as a singular incident.  The question on everybody's lips in the governments of Western Europe and North America is 'when' not 'if'. 

While I will not say that this incident is the straw that broke the camel's back,  I will say that Russia now has the undivided attention of a great number of people.  And not in a good way.

I advocated that the US stay out of the fray in Ukraine.  I reversed that policy when it became apparent that nothing that the Russians did or said would be honored in the future.  That everything was a ploy to advance the Russian cause.    There must be a push back from the Western Powers and the sooner that happens, the smaller the cost will be.  I also believe that Russia only understands suppression or resistance by power.  This is not a small thing.  The US will have to commit substantial resources to the ongoing buildup by the Russians.

It appears that the Kremlin wishes to re-enact the dynamic that existed in the Cold War - where forces challenged each other and all governments had to come down on one side or the other.  Unfortunately, almost all of the governments of substance have already pitched their tents on the Western Side of the equation.   A show of force is now in order to demonstrate the resolve of these governments.

[Gator]

Blah, blah, blah

Interesting that you chose to assail me for my shortcomings, thus keeping the fire going,  rather than address something I thought vey relevant to RWD.  I repeat my words:

  Hopefully the cease fire becomes a long-term stalemate and Poroshenko and the Ukrainian people can address the reforms needed to break from the centuries of subordination to Russia.  You [LFU] lived there.  I assume you have good Ukrainian friends wanting the same.  You never mention this yet most here would find it relevant.  These are real friends with whom I presume you shared food, drink and talk; they are not chatroom buddies. 
 

So I ask you, what do your UA friends think about Crimea?  The conflict with insurgents?   The prospects for Ukraine's economic improvement?   The merits of Poroshenko?  The murder of Boris Nemtsov?   Etc.   This would merit its own thread.   

BTW, regarding keeping the fire going, you have the last word.   As my personal psychiatrist,  even if you advise otherwise, I believe enough has been said.  Back to this horrible assassination. 

[The Natural]

Hopefully no one would ever use names such as "fucker" or racial epithets such as "brownie."

Oh come on man, is one negative adjective so much worse than the next? Remember, English is not my native Language, so in the heat of the moment one can sometimes use Words that pops up in ones mind  As far as I'm concerned, there's a difference between unchallenged provocations and reacting to it. I do the latter.