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Poll

If it turns out that the Woohan Institute of Virology incubated and accidentally distributed the Corona Virus what would be your response?

I would be upset with China but would not do anything.
2 (16.7%)
I would boycott China and everything it produces because the government hid a deathly plague
7 (58.3%)
I would believe China - that the disease really started in the US
0 (0%)
I would send China the bill for the lost economies and seek replacement of its government.
3 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: April 19, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Author Topic: If China is Really Responsible......  (Read 47522 times)

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Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #200 on: April 13, 2020, 11:40:45 AM »
BC,

The case history you present is the official line of the Communist Party of China.   Surely you must be suspect of those figures.

It is amazing that you didn't catch it.   Where it says 'National Health Commission'?   Well, the full name is 'National Health Commission of the Peoples Republic of China'.  Anyone can post to Wiki.
                                                                                                               

jone,

Fight the facts, not the messenger.  If you find any errors in the information posted, as you say 'Anyone can post to Wiki', so even you can submit an edit.

Is there anything in the timeline that you believe is in error?  I'd be interested in hearing about differences.

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #201 on: April 13, 2020, 12:18:49 PM »
jone,

Fight the facts, not the messenger.  If you find any errors in the information posted, as you say 'Anyone can post to Wiki', so even you can submit an edit.

Is there anything in the timeline that you believe is in error?  I'd be interested in hearing about differences.

Oh.   You get to choose who you quote.  That is a significantly larger role than messenger.   You happen to be quoting the Communist Party of China who, to this date, claims that only 3341 people died as a result of the virus. The entire timeline / case figures numbers seem to be edited for public consumption.

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.

 



Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #202 on: April 13, 2020, 12:24:12 PM »

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.
 

I didn't represent that.  I did say I use it as a reference point.  The sources used are clearly stated.  Have a better one or another that conflicts with what is posted aside from 'it's all wrong'?

Have a better timeline? 

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #203 on: April 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM »
I didn't say it is all wrong.  I said it was edited for public consumption.   I am not sophisticated enough, or have enough knowledge to offer determinations regarding timelines or number of people dead.  My take is that information has been doctored by the Chinese Central Committee, whom you quote.

Looks like sh&t, smells like sh&t, tastes like sh&t.   We have to figure that a healthy dose of sh&t is present.   Did you watch the video presented by Faux Pas?   It is worth watching.   It is a perspective.  But it coincides with the information that was in the public domain prior to the Chinese clamp down on sharing information with the rest of the world.

And why would the Chinese clamp down on sharing?   Hmmm.   That's a tough one.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #204 on: April 13, 2020, 01:06:09 PM »
My take is that information has been doctored by the Chinese Central Committee, whom you quote.

jone,

My exact words below.  I can't find anything I quoted.

When looking at various reports and interpretations, I have found it useful to compare with the timeline of events available here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic#Timeline_by_month


Quote
Looks like sh&t, smells like sh&t, tastes like sh&t. 

I would phrase such as 'take with a bit of salt here and there'.

We'll just have to wait for the data to get crunched to test statistical validity.

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

Quote
The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released a briefing on its website about the pneumonia outbreak in the city, confirming 27 cases and telling the public not to go to enclosed public places or gather. It suggested wearing face masks when going out.[44]

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.

Offline BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #205 on: April 13, 2020, 01:11:19 PM »
Billy is late to the party. 4 days ago I posted a ton of articles that WHO
covered for China.


I've never been late the coronavirus party. I came early. I've mentioned over a month ago how WHO was covering for China by repeating their lies and praising China for their work. The media and government is just now talking about it but the coverup began long before. All one has to do is look at WHO's website and statements they made in January and February.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #206 on: April 13, 2020, 01:20:02 PM »
jone,

My exact words below.  I can't find anything I quoted.


I would phrase such as 'take with a bit of salt here and there'.

We'll just have to wait for the data to get crunched to test statistical validity.

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.

Sorry.  You didn't quote anything. My bad.

As for your last comment?  I couldn't agree more.

Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Gator

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #207 on: April 13, 2020, 02:16:43 PM »

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

Quote
  The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released a briefing on its website about the pneumonia outbreak in the city, confirming 27 cases and telling the public not to go to enclosed public places or gather. It suggested wearing face masks when going out.

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.

Even in Wuhan the official order to wear facemasks came three weeks later and was limited to just public facilities.  From the Wiki timeline for January 22:  "At the day's night, Wuhan government announced that citizens must wear face mask in public facilities."

BTW, I found the various advisories in the US about facemasks to be misleading if not a gross mistake, although not as bad a mistake as limiting testing in the early days to only CDC facilities.   

The Wiki timeline did not mention the January 17 Imperial College report of statistical analysis with this  quote:  "We estimate that a total of 1,723 cases of 2019-nCoV in Wuhan City had onset of symptoms by 12th January."  In contrast, China had reported only 45 cases by January 16. Yes, a possibly biased timeline.     


Online Faux Pas

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #208 on: April 13, 2020, 03:20:16 PM »

I don't believe that, as this video suggests, that the Chinese intentionally infected people in other nations.  The risk factors associated with such actions are unfathomable and not even the Communist Party is that stupid.

The timeline and the evidence to support it is to me, very compelling. The Gnome and the sequencing medically states this virus did not mutate in the wet market. There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation. Personally, I smelled a rat from the very beginning. If the Chinese intentionally unleashed the virus that makes it a weapon and an attack. If it was an accident, their cover up and withholding of information is damming and must be investigated. Yes, it is China's fault. China is responsible. What will the rest of the world do for them to comply?

Offline BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #209 on: April 13, 2020, 05:37:51 PM »
I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.


Western governments had to tell us masks weren't necessary. Masks were more important in the hands of the medical community. There was a huge supply in Asia. China, South Korea and Japan have cultures where wearing masks is normal  when going out. Masks makes a difference. After all, the medical community uses them. After manufacturing gave the medical community enough masks, the government recommended those who are coughing and sneezing to wear masks if they go out. From an infected person's lungs to our lungs it's better to have two filtration barriers instead of one so even non infected people will see a benefit from masks. I'm seeing more Americans wear cloth masks when going out. Very few are wearing a mask with N95 level protection.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #210 on: April 13, 2020, 06:20:44 PM »
The timeline and the evidence to support it is to me, very compelling. The Gnome and the sequencing medically states this virus did not mutate in the wet market. There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation. Personally, I smelled a rat from the very beginning. If the Chinese intentionally unleashed the virus that makes it a weapon and an attack. If it was an accident, their cover up and withholding of information is damming and must be investigated. Yes, it is China's fault. China is responsible. What will the rest of the world do for them to comply?

If China intentionally infected other nations, then China would be guilty of using weapons of mass destruction and the resulting cataclysm would be war.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #211 on: April 13, 2020, 06:22:14 PM »
The Wiki timeline did not mention the January 17 Imperial College report of statistical analysis with this  quote:  "We estimate that a total of 1,723 cases of 2019-nCoV in Wuhan City had onset of symptoms by 12th January."  In contrast, China had reported only 45 cases by January 16. Yes, a possibly biased timeline.   

Then that would be a good source to add to the article.

The report conclusion:

Quote
Conclusions  It  is  likely  that  the  Wuhan  outbreak of  a  novel  coronavirus has  caused  substantially  more  cases  of moderate or severe respiratory illness than currently reported. The estimates presented here suggest surveillance should be expanded to include all hospitalised cases of pneumonia or severe respiratory disease  in  the  Wuhan  areaand  other  well-connected  Chinese  cities.  This analysis  does not directly address transmission routes, but past experience with SARS and MERS-CoV outbreaks of similar scale suggests currently self-sustaining human-to-human transmission should not be ruled out.
 
Remember Wuhan is a city of 11 million.  It also uses an incubation period of 10 days as a basis which nowadays is generally accepted to be 14. Statistically speaking this is a considerable difference.

I'm not saying this in defence of China, but just so we recognize that it may well not have been possible for China to confirm all expected 1723 cases at that point in time.  We know well here in Italy that many were 'flying under the radar' until testing ramped up.  Ditto for other hotspots like NYC that had even more warning time.

Here is the report in case anyone is interested. 

www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/mrc-gida/2020-01-17-COVID19-Report-1.pdf




Offline BC

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #212 on: April 13, 2020, 06:39:02 PM »
There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation.

I assume you did not read the prior posted study indicating that bat to human was not a likely transmission route and that the most likely route is a bat to some animal(s) that ended up at the market.  Heck, I'm really scratching my head whether or not I had a moderate bout of covid. Spent almost a week in bed with all the classic symptoms.  This was in early February but do remember our little dog having one heck of a cough afterwards for several days.  Nobody ate the dog so consider my experience fully anecdotal.

Offline BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #213 on: April 13, 2020, 07:55:13 PM »
I'm not saying this in defence of China, but just so we recognize that it may well not have been possible for China to confirm all expected 1723 cases at that point in time. 



Absolutely China would've known if human to human transmission was possible from 1723 cases. Doctors ask those people where they been, who they been in contact with, and what they ate. Obviously they didn't all eat meat at the Wuhan wet market and they would probably tell the doctor they been in contact with a person who is also confirmed positive. In America's first case, our government asked the man where he been, what he ate and who he was in contact with. That is standard procedure. China announce the human to human transfer was possible the same day America had it's first case. They could not hide the truth any longer.

In November 2019, China had the plague show up in a handful of people and they quickly stomped it before it spread. Likes this virus, they failed to report it to WHO until whistleblowers let the cat out of the bag. China has a history of infectious diseases showing up in their country and they have a history of hiding the facts but they also had a history of eventually stopping the spread of those pathogens until this time. This virus wasn't going to be stopped because it's behavior doesn't allow it to be easily detected in many of its hosts.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #214 on: April 13, 2020, 07:55:55 PM »
Oh.   You get to choose who you quote.  That is a significantly larger role than messenger.   You happen to be quoting the Communist Party of China who, to this date, claims that only 3341 people died as a result of the virus. The entire timeline / case figures numbers seem to be edited for public consumption.

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.

 
and you quote what you would otherwise quote as 'fake news' here in the western media.   Of course it is only fake news, if you don't agree with it. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #215 on: April 13, 2020, 07:59:23 PM »
If China intentionally infected other nations, then China would be guilty of using weapons of mass destruction and the resulting cataclysm would be war.

all these "IF"S".   Since we are talking 'if's'  how about if the US planted the virus in China and then tried to blame it on China.  The world would side against the treachery of the US and it would be war.  All your 'if's' are just another effort to indirectly blame china without the required evidence.  Pretty clearly your mind has already been made up...and it is based on nothing more than your anger that China was competing with the US and winning.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #216 on: April 13, 2020, 08:08:14 PM »
I assume you did not read the prior posted study indicating that bat to human was not a likely transmission route and that the most likely route is a bat to some animal(s) that ended up at the market.  Heck, I'm really scratching my head whether or not I had a moderate bout of covid. Spent almost a week in bed with all the classic symptoms.  This was in early February but do remember our little dog having one heck of a cough afterwards for several days.  Nobody ate the dog so consider my experience fully anecdotal.

Sure I did. Did you watch the video? The covid19 has had a presence in Wuhan since at least 2010 in the lab. Definitely since 2017 when the lady scientist published her papers. It was muted to humans in that lab. You're sticking to the narrative that Jone explains is the narrative of CCP. I get it. It's the info you have and the info you wish to believe. It makes everything in a nice tidy package. This reeks of shit to the high heavens brother. Sticking our head in the sand won't make it go away.

I am convinced I had it myself. So is my SIL, who is a doctor and likely I passed it it him before my wife and daughter. I had 14 days of death warmed over and 4 days and nights of coughing non-stop

Offline BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #217 on: April 14, 2020, 04:59:19 PM »

It's official, Trump suspends funding to WHO for their poor performance.

He said they wasted valuable time and dismissed reports that countered what the Chinese was saying about the virus and it's behavior. The gave bad advice advising nations not to put a travel ban on China. Trump said there was credible information in December that human to human transmission was happening but WHO instead reported human to human transmission wasn't happening. Trump said we received false information on mortality rate. Trump said WHO has been silent on the disappearances of researchers and doctors. Trump said it's deeply concerning there are new restrictions on sharing the research into the origins of the virus. Trump also criticized China's lack of transparency and criticized WHO for praising China's transparency although they had to take everything China told them at face value. Trump said telling the truth early on would've been easy for China but now we're seeing unnecessary deaths and devastation to economies.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-calls-for-halt-to-us-funding-for-world-health-organization-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/ar-BB12D4Vp?ocid=spartanntp
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Offline tfcrew

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #218 on: April 14, 2020, 05:26:39 PM »
The president certainly spent some time today slamming [deservedly] the World Health Org outfit. It needs to be quarantined.

~There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf as those who will not listen~
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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #219 on: April 14, 2020, 05:28:04 PM »
~There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf as those who will not listen~
~Think about the intelligence of the average person and then realize that half of the people are even more stupid than that~

Offline BillyB

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #220 on: April 14, 2020, 09:38:09 PM »

New law. Any study of the origin of the virus must get approval by the Chinese government before being published.

http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/asia/china-coronavirus-research-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html

Intelligence officials are now looking into the possibility the virus escaped from a lab. CIA official said it should be easy to get information from people who are upset with their government. If anybody knows something, China may make them disappear knowing the CIA is poking around for answers in their country.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/intelligence-officials-weigh-possibility-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-chinese-lab-194958353.html


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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2020, 07:04:38 AM »

Senator Tom Cotton says we know the virus didn't originate from the Wuhan wet market. Also America sounded the alarm on Wuhan lab studying coronaviruses years ago that there could be another SARS outbreak. It wasn't secure enough and personnel lacked proper training.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/us-sounded-alarm-wuhan-lab-160443838.html
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Offline jone

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #222 on: April 15, 2020, 03:57:29 PM »
I have heard that dogs are now the progenitor of the COVID 19 virus.   Prior to that it was the live food market in Wuhan.  (Bats from Eastern China are not even sold in this market.)

But for those of you who have a brain in your head, imagine what the State Department and the CIA are going through right now to find the origins of the virus.

*******************************************************************

Washington Post by Josh Rogin

Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.

In January 2018, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing took the unusual step of repeatedly sending U.S. science diplomats to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which had in 2015 become China’s first laboratory to achieve the highest level of international bioresearch safety (known as BSL-4). WIV issued a news release in English about the last of these visits, which occurred on March 27, 2018. The U.S. delegation was led by Jamison Fouss, the consul general in Wuhan, and Rick Switzer, the embassy’s counselor of environment, science, technology and health. Last week, WIV erased that statement from its website, though it remains archived on the Internet.

What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.

“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)

The Chinese researchers at WIV were receiving assistance from the Galveston National Laboratory at the University of Texas Medical Branch and other U.S. organizations, but the Chinese requested additional help. The cables argued that the United States should give the Wuhan lab further support, mainly because its research on bat coronaviruses was important but also dangerous.

As the cable noted, the U.S. visitors met with Shi Zhengli, the head of the research project, who had been publishing studies related to bat coronaviruses for many years. In November 2017, just before the U.S. officials’ visit, Shi’s team had published research showing that horseshoe bats they had collected from a cave in Yunnan province were very likely from the same bat population that spawned the SARS coronavirus in 2003.

“Most importantly,” the cable states, “the researchers also showed that various SARS-like coronaviruses can interact with ACE2, the human receptor identified for SARS-coronavirus. This finding strongly suggests that SARS-like coronaviruses from bats can be transmitted to humans to cause SARS-like diseases. From a public health perspective, this makes the continued surveillance of SARS-like coronaviruses in bats and study of the animal-human interface critical to future emerging coronavirus outbreak prediction and prevention.

The research was designed to prevent the next SARS-like pandemic by anticipating how it might emerge. But even in 2015, other scientists questioned whether Shi’s team was taking unnecessary risks. In October 2014, the U.S. government had imposed a moratorium on funding of any research that makes a virus more deadly or contagious, known as “gain-of-function” experiments.

As many have pointed out, there is no evidence that the virus now plaguing the world was engineered; scientists largely agree it came from animals. But that is not the same as saying it didn’t come from the lab, which spent years testing bat coronaviruses in animals, said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California at Berkeley.

“The cable tells us that there have long been concerns about the possibility of the threat to public health that came from this lab’s research, if it was not being adequately conducted and protected,” he said.

There are similar concerns about the nearby Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab, which operates at biosecurity level 2, a level significantly less secure than the level-4 standard claimed by the Wuhan Insititute of Virology lab, Xiao said. That’s important because the Chinese government still refuses to answer basic questions about the origin of the novel coronavirus while suppressing any attempts to examine whether either lab was involved.

Sources familiar with the cables said they were meant to sound an alarm about the grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses. The embassy officials were calling for more U.S. attention to this lab and more support for it, to help it fix its problems.

“The cable was a warning shot,” one U.S. official said. “They were begging people to pay attention to what was going on.”

No extra assistance to the labs was provided by the U.S. government in response to these cables. The cables began to circulate again inside the administration over the past two months as officials debated whether the lab could be the origin of the pandemic and what the implications would be for the U.S. pandemic response and relations with China.

Inside the Trump administration, many national security officials have long suspected either the WIV or the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab was the source of the novel coronavirus outbreak. According to the New York Times, the intelligence community has provided no evidence to confirm this. But one senior administration official told me that the cables provide one more piece of evidence to support the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab accident in Wuhan.

“The idea that it was just a totally natural occurrence is circumstantial. The evidence it leaked from the lab is circumstantial. Right now, the ledger on the side of it leaking from the lab is packed with bullet points and there’s almost nothing on the other side,” the official said.

As my colleague David Ignatius noted, the Chinese government’s original story — that the virus emerged from a seafood market in Wuhan — is shaky. Research by Chinese experts published in the Lancet in January showed the first known patient, identified on Dec. 1, had no connection to the market, nor did more than one-third of the cases in the first large cluster. Also, the market didn’t sell bats.

Shi and other WIV researchers have categorically denied this lab was the origin for the novel coronavirus. On Feb. 3, her team was the first to publicly report the virus known as 2019-nCoV was a bat-derived coronavirus.

The Chinese government, meanwhile, has put a total lockdown on information related to the virus origins. Beijing has yet to provide U.S. experts with samples of the novel coronavirus collected from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab that published the novel coronavirus genome on Jan. 11 was quickly shut down by authorities for “rectification.” Several of the doctors and journalists who reported on the spread early on have disappeared.

On Feb. 14, Chinese President Xi Jinping called for a new biosecurity law to be accelerated. On Wednesday, CNN reported the Chinese government has placed severe restrictions requiring approval before any research institution publishes anything on the origin of the novel coronavirus.

The origin story is not just about blame. It’s crucial to understanding how the novel coronavirus pandemic started because that informs how to prevent the next one. The Chinese government must be transparent and answer the questions about the Wuhan labs because they are vital to our scientific understanding of the virus, said Xiao.

We don’t know whether the novel coronavirus originated in the Wuhan lab, but the cable pointed to the danger there and increases the impetus to find out, he said.

“I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s a legitimate question that needs to be investigated and answered,” he said. “To understand exactly how this originated is critical knowledge for preventing this from happening in the future.”

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

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In a directly related topic, the woman who mapped the genome for the COVID 19 virus had disappeared.   Apparently the CCP was hiding her because she gave out some interviews that rejected the official Chinese line that the virus originated at the live food market.   Yesterday she showed up again and stated the date but was immediately hidden away so as not to allow any direct interviews.



Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #223 on: April 15, 2020, 04:13:34 PM »
I have heard that dogs are now the progenitor of the COVID 19 virus. 

I recall one report saying cats can become infected from humans but not dogs.   But that was not your point.   

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Re: If China is Really Responsible......
« Reply #224 on: April 15, 2020, 05:28:56 PM »

But for those of you who have a brain in your head, imagine what the State Department and the CIA are going through right now to find the origins of the virus.

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So now suddenly the CIA and State Department are to be trusted? 

I think the impression of these institutions worldwide is complete distrust...not to mention what the conservatives here sometimes say when something is turned up they don't agree with.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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