Have your trips to the FSU countries changed your Western thinking?

[erudite]

Hello to all and I have a question to ask although I cannot imagine that it has not been asked on this forum before. 
In the four trips I have made to Ukraine I have learned and absorbed much from each experience.  These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA.  So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

[Maxx2]

Hello to all and I have a question to ask although I cannot imagine that it has not been asked on this forum before. 
In the four trips I have made to Ukraine I have learned and absorbed much from each experience.  These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA.  So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

It did for me put in perspective the "important things" were not all that important. It's the family life that matters and not all the stuff one accumulates. We tend to worry about providing the perfect nest but that should not be our main focus. Finding that soul mate is. 

[dbneeley]

Erudite,

Interesting question!

Two responses:

In the FSU, many people would be far more materialistic if they had the means to be so.

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives. There are many blogs devoted to that phenomenon, in fact. I think this is a growing trend among many people who have no interest in looking abroad for a mate. I believe it is a very worthwhile trend, and however you may arrive at that place you will likely find life far more rewarding without all the crap that winds up being a surprisingly heavy load weighting us down.

One rather interesting part of this movement is the "100 things challenge" in which people begin to get rid of all but 100 separate items. There are also many websites devoted to "decluttering" that are also often helpful.

Looking back, one thing I regret is not having pared down the nonessentials many years before I did. The waste of money I spent on keeping a mini-storage unit for some years alone is, in retrospect, quite silly.

David

[Daveman]

Yes, it absolutely has and in a very positive way.  I was always fairly open minded and rarely took western rhetoric for anything other than exactly that, but the extended trips were the most eye opening.  Learning more about the "why" people think and behave like they do allows for a more acceptive mentality (home and abroad), natural understanding, and personal growth and evolution in various ways unimaginable prior to embarking on this path. 

The only adverse effect would be to my bank account, but the education for which it shrank to provide truly cannot be measured in dollars, grivna, rubles, or euros.. it's pretty much priceless.

[Gylden]

Traveling, working or living abroad has an effect on most people. Finding yourself outside the familiar comforts, customs, language, cultures, etc. is a life enrichingexperience, again for most people. This is the same for people from all countries.

The more diversity, the better IMO.

[ECOCKS]

Hmmm, I agree it's an interesting question.

I learned some alternative ways to live and broadened my views considerably but cannot say that I particularly changed those views.

For instance, I learned that life without a car is not an unimaginable horror, hardly ever interacting with government officialdom can be wonderfully appreciated and that just because someone says they are a doctor, policeman, economist or business person, the cross-cultural definition they are applying should be carefully checked for accuracy as you translate it. I learned a people can stoically accept corruption and deprivation as a normal situation if they are held down at barely-above-subsistence living standards for a couple of generations. That propaganda, along with controlled lack of choices and options can result in changes of attitude and perception by an entire population and that it will take two or three generations to correct those perceptions and return to "normalcy".

Did I learn that the "Western ways" are flawed, inefficient or otherwise not realistic? Nope.

As David stated, the people there would be/are far more materialistic if given the chance and grab at most opportunities to move in the direction of western material comforts whenever they are offered.

[ConnerVT]

Two responses:

In the FSU, many people would be far more materialistic if they had the means to be so.

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.

I agree with this 100%.

[BC]

I agree with this 100%.

My experience is same.  If more is possible, it's human nature to utilize..

Nothing about this venture is cheap.

 

[dbneeley]

An interesting sidelight to the minimalist approach--minimalist travel. Especially with ever-decreasing allowances for baggage and the hassles often associated with checking bags, more and more people are learning to travel with much less--indeed, as many Ukrainians often do already.

I took only what I could carry on board for my six-week Summer trip back to the States this past year, and I was happy I did so (although I bought quite a bit for the house, family and friends so I did check a bag on the way home).

Too many Westerners try to travel with far more than they actually need, especially if they are willing to do some preparation beforehand.

If you are truly interested in learning to "do more with less" perhaps that's a place to start?

There are excellent resources on the subject on the Internet, such as onebag.com and onebagoneworld.com.

David

[ML]

David, I appreciate what you are trying to convey with your idea of traveling light.

However, I think you are giving somewhat of a misleading example.

Your traveling from Ukraine back to a home city (I presume) in USA for 6 weeks, cannot really be compared to a AM traveling to a new city in FSU for 6 weeks.

No one can live out of a carry-on for 6 weeks.  Let's be honest here.

In USA, we have other sets of clothes stored somewhere, can borrow from friends and relatives, can purchase clothes cheaply at WalMart, etc., we know exactly where all the OTC medicines and other necessities are, and have no language barriers in finding such, etc.

None of this applies when we travel to FSU.

Also, when coming back to USA for a visit as you did, we can dress like a beggar and no one cares.  But this won't fly when going to FSU to meet and woo ladies.

It is good to share tips on these boards.  But the tips should be realistic and fit the situation.

[dbneeley]

David, I appreciate what you are trying to convey with your idea of traveling light.

However, I think you are giving somewhat of a misleading example.

Your traveling from Ukraine back to a home city (I presume) in USA for 6 weeks, cannot really be compared to a AM traveling to a new city in FSU for 6 weeks.

No one can live out of a carry-on for 6 weeks.  Let's be honest here.

In USA, we have other sets of clothes stored somewhere, can borrow from friends and relatives, can purchase clothes cheaply at WalMart, etc., we know exactly where all the OTC medicines and other necessities are, and have no language barriers in finding such, etc.

None of this applies when we travel to FSU.

Also, when coming back to USA for a visit as you did, we can dress like a beggar and no one cares.  But this won't fly when going to FSU to meet and woo ladies.

It is good to share tips on these boards.  But the tips should be realistic and fit the situation.

You are quite mistaken, actually. I had no stored clothing as I left nothing behind in the U.S. What I did not bring with me or ship separately I got rid of. In my case, it was complicated by having to drag along a CPAP machine complete with mask and hose as well as various accoutrements to handle my diabetes.

Many people travel that lightly, actually. It really isn't that hard if you are prepared. Travel to the FSU during warm weather makes it easier, of course, but even in Winter you simply wear the bulky stuff on the plane.

Before you dismiss this out of hand, it would probably help if you did a little research first. It sounds very much like the old adage about "don't knock it until you've tried it."

One man who visited here for several weeks a few months ago did the one bag approach and was quite happy he did, by the way.

David

[Blues Fairy]

These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA. 

Western lifestyle complicated?  You must be kidding me.  Try starting a business in Russia or Ukraine, or getting a driver's license, or registering your vehicle/ passing inspection etc.  Try finding a secure retirement savings fund.  Try placing your kid in a good kindergarten/school without paying enormous bribes. 

You simply have no idea how complicated life in the FSU may be unless you have VERY good income, i.e. materialistic lifestyle, in your definition.   

[HiTech]

Alyona and I were in Ukraine for 2 weeks over New Years. I had not been there for 2.5 years. I very quickly remembered how doing almost anything takes 2 - 20 times as long as it would in the USA.

We spent 4 days to gather paper work for the Ukraine foreign resident stamp.

While minimalistic in the USA can give you a lot of relaxation. That concept does not work in Ukraine because if you have minimal items, it means you use most of your free time surviving.

As far as materialism goes, I'm with the rest, materialism is much more pronounced in Ukraine.

The one that jumps out at me, is how much the FSU still effects the way of life, from state run factories not letting you in if you are late to work, to the bribes at all levels of government. To me it highlights how important a non corrupt government is needed to make a country prosper. With out it you are at the mercy of people instead of laws which make a level playing field for all.

HiTech

[GQBlues]

"Have your trips to the FSU countries changed your Western thinking?"

Trips? None, nada, zip, zero.

Unless anyone spend a sizeable amount of time living like the natives and fully function as one in a particular environment can one objectively say it had a profound effect in their ways of life and thinking. It takes a while for anyone to be influenced by their new surrounding/environment to the point they are concisely affected by it and make an objective change accordingly.

Take at look at your respective wives experiences as an example. It had likely taken each one a while to acclimate and change to 'x' degree since living here, yes? The longer the time, the more noticeable the change. Some do not even fully 'adapt' or 'change' despite the longevity of residence. So how will relatively short trips make any significant impact to our ways of thinking to an extent there's a noticeable change?

[erudite]

I suppose I should say that the trips (however brief according to some other's standards) have impressed upon me it is more important to focus on "needs" rather than "wants" many times. It is very simple to receive an impression when you see people who are required to focus on "needs" instead of "wants".

In the west many things we have are extreme luxuries in the FSU and I understand this quite well; however in the west we also have a tendency to confuse "wants" with "needs" and it causes an imbalance in lifestyle in many cases.

[acctBill]

Western lifestyle complicated?  You must be kidding me.  Try starting a business in Russia or Ukraine, or getting a driver's license, or registering your vehicle/ passing inspection etc.  Try finding a secure retirement savings fund.  Try placing your kid in a good kindergarten/school without paying enormous bribes. 

You simply have no idea how complicated life in the FSU may be unless you have VERY good income, i.e. materialistic lifestyle, in your definition.   

BF is right, life in the FSU is far more complicated and difficult than life in the west.  I am always amazed by WM who have some fantasy ideal about life in the FSU.  These WM think that they can live with their FSUW and family in an apartment in Moscow or St. Pete or perhaps in a house in some out of the way place like Voronezh and live a calmer, slower, better life than life in London, New York or Moab, Utah.  It really is a fantasy. 

Most expats take a job in Russia as an adventure or challenge, something that will look good on their CV.  Many return home at the first opportunity, once the true extent of the challenges of working in a country in which corruption, incompetence, indifference and lack of resources is realized and these expats are usually working for western employers.       

Over the years of visiting the FSU I have met numerous expats who lived in Moscow and cities throughout the FSU.  Some have married FSUW and learned Russian and manage to live a good life by Russian standards.  These expats don't plan on retiring in Russia and with few exceptions if they were offered a promotion or even a comparable job in their home country or in some western country they would take it. 

[SFandEE]

Absolutely--

Propaganda is not just a communist/fascist/socialist concept or expertise

Hard work in the absence of hope is a challenge to sustain

America(ns) need(s) to be more credible with what it perceives it offers and what it is

Christianity plays an incredibly strong role in American culture--far more than I realized

Avoid hiring someone who has represented their sole interest in doing work for you is getting the money (really annoying to haggle with FSU people about getting their money, I guess they get stiffed a lot, haggle too much, I'll find someone else who at least pretends to want to do a good job for me)

Little kids walking with their parents with flowers for their teachers on the first day of school are pretty darn cute, so are little kids that do the dance of the little ducks for their family

I am sure there is more--very expansive experience

[erudite]

BF is right, life in the FSU is far more complicated and difficult than life in the west.  I am always amazed by WM who have some fantasy ideal about life in the FSU.  These WM think that they can live with their FSUW and family in an apartment in Moscow or St. Pete or perhaps in a house in some out of the way place like Voronezh and live a calmer, slower, better life than life in London, New York or Moab, Utah.  It really is a fantasy. 

Most expats take a job in Russia as an adventure or challenge, something that will look good on their CV.  Many return home at the first opportunity, once the true extent of the challenges of working in a country in which corruption, incompetence, indifference and lack of resources is realized and these expats are usually working for western employers.       

Over the years of visiting the FSU I have met numerous expats who lived in Moscow and cities throughout the FSU.  Some have married FSUW and learned Russian and manage to live a good life by Russian standards.  These expats don't plan on retiring in Russia and with few exceptions if they were offered a promotion or even a comparable job in their home country or in some western country they would take it. 

I did not say that it was easy to live there. I realized the first time I went that it was a "dog eat dog" lifestyle for the most part.  I said that the experience has taught me to change priorities in my life and future (even though they may be easier to come by here in the USA).  Here I have options and a choice. In FSU countries I would not have the same options or choice because the "needs" would be harder to obtain and to achieve on a daily basis.  It has taught me to count my blessings and look at my life objectively, that is all. 

Does anyone count their blessings any more these days as Mama taught them?

[acctBill]

I did not say that it was easy to live there. I realized the first time I went that it was a "dog eat dog" lifestyle for the most part.  I said that the experience has taught me to change priorities in my life and future (even though they may be easier to come by here in the USA).  Here I have options and a choice. In FSU countries I would not have the same options or choice because the "needs" would be harder to obtain and to achieve on a daily basis.  It has taught me to count my blessings and look at my life objectively, that is all. 

Does anyone count their blessings any more these days as Mama taught them?

erudite I'm not trying to ruin your thread and I have learned to count my blessings in that I live in a country with far more freedoms and opportunities than are available in the FSU.  However, I have heard from many WM that they would like to live or retire in the FSU just because they are married to a FSUW.  Most of these WM don't speak or speak very little Russian and have little interest in learning.   Without this knowledge of Russian they will never understand the culture or be able to function independently in the FSU.   

[SomeGuy]

I agree with whomever posted upthread about there is always something to learn when traveling anywhere outside of whatever your norm may be.  I think there is also much to be said of the differences between needs and wants, as well as opportunities that may or may not exist in different places.  There are definitely those in the FSU who will always want more, just like here, and may spend everything possible on 'presentation' - $200-$300 for new jeans, $$$ on the latest mobile, whatever the case may be, but there are also those who see little opportunity to advance themselves, their careers, the lot of their family.  The condition and perception of 'adequate' housing.  The ability of government to 'reclaim' land or buildings from housing or businesses for a new purpose.  The idea of summer houses being given to employees by companies(or government) they worked for.

Some things may seem to be clearly better or worse in one place over another, while others aren't so clear cut.  Owning a house or apartment, or business, the (ab)use of credit (which i have seen in the FSU as well), healthcare/insurance and tips/bribes.  The relative sizes of 'middle class' and the size of the gaps between the haves and have nots.  The public transportation system available for a small city of 500,000 and the comparisons in price, efficiency/capability compared to a similar sized place in the US (not only US to FSU here, basically the requirement to own one or more vehicles in nearly all areas of the US).  Chemicals in food.  Radiation in food.  The relative salary compared to cost on different items. 

I'm not saying all of the above have each directly changed my perspective in some significant way, only that there are always a lot of differences to be found, and things to think about.  There are relative good and bad things in most places.  I think that after a long enough period of consumerism/spending in my own life that had been winding down more already, time spent in the FSU as well as other places in the world, the economic situation in general, my wife's attitudes on spending/saving - they all contribute towards more focusing on needs over wants, and ensuring that my family prospers to the best of my ability.

[mendeleyev]

For instance, I learned that life without a car is not an unimaginable horror, hardly ever interacting with government officialdom can be wonderfully appreciated and that just because someone says they are a doctor, policeman, economist or business person, the cross-cultural definition they are applying should be carefully checked for accuracy as you translate it. I learned a people can stoically accept corruption and deprivation as a normal situation if they are held down at barely-above-subsistence living standards for a couple of generations. That propaganda, along with controlled lack of choices and options can result in changes of attitude and perception by an entire population and that it will take two or three generations to correct those perceptions and return to "normalcy".

Did I learn that the "Western ways" are flawed, inefficient or otherwise not realistic? Nope.

Excellent points. I'm also in agreement with what BluesFairy had to say.

I can remember the days when a simple, or it should have been simple, task like finding a replacement printer cartridge was an all day event. Back in the 1990s one could spend days first in calling stores, then hopping on a Metro to visit those stores, to find out that the same clerk who swore over the phone that they stocked my Cannon cartridge, in reality didn't carry Cannon or perhaps didn't even carry cartridges at all once you arrived to make the purchase.

I remember in the 1990s walking into a large Moscow Bank which had American Express logos on every window only to discover that they had no connection at all to AMEX and when I pointed to the numerous signs, the bank door guard (you don't just walk in unattended as in the West) laughed and said the signs were there to promote the bank's "image." He then showed me to the door.

OTOH, I too learned that a car isn't a dire necessity and that it is wasteful to drive just a block or 3 to pick up something at the market when your legs could really use the exercise and your lungs benefit from the walk and from the fresh air.

I came home years later to discover that my housing needs had changed. A 2500 sq ft house with 3.5 bathrooms seemed downright shameful. So in some things, yes we made changes.

[acctBill]

OTOH, I too learned that a car isn't a dire necessity and that it is wasteful to drive just a block or 3 to pick up something at the market when your legs could really use the exercise and your lungs benefit from the walk and from the fresh air.

Mendeleyev, breath in fresh air while walking the streets of Moscow?  You might get some exercise walking 3 or 4 blocks but fresh air has been in short supply in Moscow for a number of years.   

[mendeleyev]

Bill, of course. Sorry that I didn't clarify that to reflect the change in perspective after a return to one's home country.

Although it doesn't take long out of Moscow proper to be in relative wilderness. Now as to how pristine that wilderness is beneath the service could be quite another matter. And most certainly more than a few blocks.

[XMan]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

A majority of the women I met were hard working, sincere people.  I am not sure what I expected prior to my first trip.  I suppose my Scam Detector was set on ultra high alert.

I should appreciate more my particular circumstances.  In my case hard work actually paid off (thus far), more or less.  For some that I met, not so much. 

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me. 

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  So I realized that changing a Ukrainian woman's mind about something might be even more difficult than changing an American woman's mind about something. Now THAT was an eye opening revelation.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility. 

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk. 

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  Don't know, just an observation.  A heck of a lot of security for a grocery store.  A woman I was with had a terrible headache and had to take aspirin.  Opened one of my bottles of water to sip, put it back in my cart.  A security person came over and actually made me pay for that particular bottle before I could continue shopping.  I'm not kidding. Wish I had it on video, because when I tell that story, no one believes it.

I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  Ever.  I always found myself parsing out my cash, thinking ahead, making sure I had enough small bills for taxis, etc.  That goes for Russia and Ukraine.  I find that it annoys the heck out of me over a period of time.  I was exchanging money at a bank once and they tried to give me a couple of 500 grivna bills.  I handed them back and insisted on 50's because NO ONE would want to take a 500, unless I happened to be spending more than 500 at a shot.  Of course, some folks simply don't have change for large bills.  But this applies to buying even a candy bar with a small bill at a small shop.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something. 

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now. 

[Shostakovich]

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.

That is right and interesting in its own right.  Each generation has the opportunity to critique the previous ones.  Anti materialism has been a part of the US mind set forever - "T'is a gift to be simple" or from the WWII generation: "Waste not want not".  That had its expression among the hippies, but they became the most materialistic generation of Americans, save for the Yuppies, for whom the world was their stage.  Now it is the turn of the progeny of the yuppies to have their voice and it expresses itself in many ways.  The voluntary simplicity of this generation is not so voluntary - it's needed for survival.  And as for that simplicity, it's great in its repudiation of the yuppies love of gas guzzling cars, girth, and absurd houses filled with most monstrous accretions of junk, used once and sent to the attic forever.  But the current gen, what are they called, have their excesses also - insipid twitters, pusillanimous facebook posts and histrionic texts, violent gaming, internet porno, and internet posts like this: a grotesque waste of time.  Reminding me that it's time for  La Sie Vie: Jean Luc Goddard saves the day.