DOUBLE DEALERS

[Bruno]

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:

Look, I'm well aware of the distain on this board for our company and that's fine. 

What make you think that these board have some distain to your compagny... maybe one or two people have make some very bad comment...

But what make the board different and not easy for some is that several of the member are able to use the main brain... not the little one between legs... story about prince and princes don't work here, we are adult people...

The ladies that are listed from our sites have no nude photos up.  The only exception is one lady who is showing a little skin at the top, and she's since been removed.

Ok, let see the picture of your 103389... Are the below picture on your site ?

It's also important to note that other MOB sites will show all of her pictures, both soft and otherwise, which can then be picked up at random by the prostitution sites.

It seem to me that the Sandro site make the difference between picture find on MOB site and prostitution site... Always more soft on MOB that on prostitution...

Again, I'm not speaking for the other sites he has listed, just ours.  We've done our homework on this one and we're fully confident with our position.

Me too, i am speaking of your 103389 girl.. homework, position What do you mean, have you try them

Also, we have far more pictures of the ladies than what they post on their profiles.

Ok, let say that you have the full set of pictures... How a other site have can steal picture that you don't post... Maybe you go say that they have thief your own office !!!

Let's just say for the sake of argument that a girl has some wild nude photos taken five years ago, or even one year ago.  Does that mean that she's automatically prohibited from trying to find someone?

The problem is not there... Myself, i am ready to accept a previous prostitute like wife if she agree to never make these job again... The past is the past and cannot be changed, my regard is fixed on the present and the futur...

The point is who steal photo of who... The point is about agency who don't allow exchange of contact information, who write letter for lady and use picture of sexy lady for attract the wallet of customer... Of course, it is what i think, maybe i am wrong but it can be one of the reason why a MOB business thief profile from prostitution site... And until now, your post only allow me to think that i am right...

[Patrick H]

Sandro,

I appreciate it and respect the fact that you're willing to make such a change.  But don't you see the flaw in the process when you don't confirm? 

I know a lot of guys will roll their eyes at this but when we told one of the ladies about her profile being on one of these sites she completely broke down.  Those of you who are already married to RWs should think about it for a moment; she joins a legit site trying to find someone, then a year or so later someone tells her that her face is on a prostitution site promising all sorts of wild sexual favors for money.  What do you do? 

Sure some of those listed on your site may partake in that industry but what about the ones who don't?  There were several pictures you listed, in both orange and read, that were not racy or pornographic at all.  Cases 23, 30, 33 (ours), 35(ours) are perfect examples of this.  Case 35 (Svetlana) is actually a very wealthy business woman in Moscow who was cast to be in one of our promotional videos.  She's been interviewed by our staff numerous times and is probably one of the more high-end ladies on the site.

In any respect, I'm sure we can agree that this problem does exist.  It's just important to realize that when you accuse someone of something such as prostitution, it's important to have all the facts straight.

[Patrick H]

"The point is who steal photo of who... The point is about agency who don't allow exchange of contact information, who write letter for lady and use picture of sexy lady for attract the wallet of customer... Of course, it is what i think, maybe i am wrong but it can be one of the reason why a MOB business thief profile from prostitution site... And until now, your post only allow me to think that i am right..."




Bruno I'm not even sure how to respond to that kind of logic.  We don't allow the exchange of contact information for several reasons, all of which have been beaten to death on both message boards.  We've never ever written on behalf of the women and I challenge you to prove otherwise.  But to say that WE stole the photos, sir that is absolutely laughable.  If you want to believe that, it's your prerogative.  Misguided sure, but it's your prerogative.  We have a five person graphics department and the idea of us leeching .jpg's from a prostitution site is absolutely amazing to me. 

And for the record 103389 was removed by her agency that moment they saw the nude photographs.  But I guess in this bizarro world, that must mean they're in on the game too. 


 

"Ok, let say that you have the full set of pictures... How a other site have can steal picture that you don't post... Maybe you go say that they have thief your own office !!!"

I'm not sure in how many languages or different ways I can put this, but I'll try to make it simple.    Woman has numerous photographs taken in a professional studio, some classy and some racy.  She then approaches legitimate MOB service and gives them the classy photographs and posts the other photographs on another MOB site that allows the racy ones.  Somewhere down the line a prostitution site comes along and says, "Hey, she's hot.  Let's make a profile of her and sell it."  Lady then finds out that she's somewhere in Italy selling sex while she freezes at home in Moscow. 

It's interesting that you're so hung up on who stole the photographs and not the fact that they don't imply anything about her profession at all. 

 

"Ok, let see the picture of your 103389... Are the below picture on your site ?"

I'm not going to hotlink to our images but you can see ours on the left on Sandro's site.  The only thing on our site that she shows is her neckline.



"What make you think that these board have some distain to your company... maybe one or two people have make some very bad comment...But what make the board different and not easy for some is that several of the member are able to use the main brain... not the little one between legs... story about prince and princes don't work here, we are adult people..."


There's a really great thread somewhere on this board where several agency owners take a childlike joy in the fact that we may have gone out of business or that David was fired; both of which are of course false.  I'm not going to repost it because it's pretty distasteful behavior and I don't want to start any unnecessary arguments.  Needless to say, it's also interesting to point out that not too long ago someone posted a thread about a fairly large MOB service actually LISTING a girl as a prostitute or "Escort" and the fallout was tepid at best.  In fact, I think everyone began defending the MOB service. 

Curiouser and curiouser...

[Admin]

Patrick,

First, let me welcome you to RWD.

As you noted, there has been some exchange here in the past which addresses your company, and it is always good to be able to hear things "from the horse's mouth" - so to speak.

I want to also point out that I certainly understand your sensitivity to this particular topic and welcome the fact that you are here to offer additional perspective. I do not, however, recall seeing anyone taking a "childlike joy" over the prospect of HRB's demise - though some hard questions were raised IIRC.

Nonetheless, I think you will find RWD to be a pretty decent place where people are generally able to speak their minds, and most will not hesitate to challenge conventional thinking and point out logic fallacies.

On this particular topic, it is my opinion that Sandro has done little more than to stumble onto some rather sordid practices and he made those practices known by exposing what seems (to me, at least) pretty logical and straight-forward conclusions. It is not clear, and I do not see Sandro claiming it *is* clear - as to culpability or veracity, he is merely exposing material found elsewhere. My own read on this was that I tended toward believing it was the girls themselves who probably posted on multiple boards - though I can see the motivation for other avenues of information being posted.

I think the learnings from this are:

• There are some hookers posting as wife material on MOB sites. To suggest it is not the case, would be foolish.[/*]
• Agencies are not capable of scanning every candidate and performing background investigations, and are only able to respond once they have evidence of wrong-doing (misrepresentation).[/*]
• There are probably some shady agencies who are leeching information from various websites for their own gain, and they are not above misrepresenting someone in order to make a buck.[/*]

Perhaps you see something else - and if so, please add your perspectives.

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:

Sandro,
I appreciate it and respect the fact that you're willing tomake such a change. But don't you see the flaw in the process when you don't confirm?

Patrick,
how on earth could I do that ? I repeat what I said before, do you seriously expect a pro site owner to answer a query such as : "Hey, is your girl #XYZ really a hooker ? I think she might be a decent girl, please investigate and report !"

[Patrick H]

Dan,

Thanks for the welcome and actually I agree that Sandro's site is making some valid observations about a problem that does exist.  My problem came from the fact that there was no disclaimer of any kind stating that these were just observations.  It says in no uncertain terms "Below are cases of professionals with profiles also on dating sites, usually giving totally different names for obvious reasons of concealment."  In my view there's no speculation there, it's being presented as fact.

I think the bulk of my frustration came from the fact that many took it to be totally correct and have gone so far as to actually accuse us of stealing the images.  But again, perspective is everything and mine is a bit skewed because of  the company I work for. 

The thread that I brought up is: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/forum11/701-3.html

To be honest, the reason I found it so disturbing was the simple fact that many of those who then pounced on the opportunity to mock us were business owners...owners who have not given others a chance to critique their own companies yet go out of their way to bash ours at every turn.  In my opinion it's simply unprofessional behavior and speaks volumes of the men who are making those statements.  I'm all for open critiques so long as they don't get personal and they are both fair and balanced.  People might not like our policies or the way we work but by constantly slamming us in a somewhat juvenile fashion (HOT Russian Brides) they're showing their inadequacies. 

 

I know that it will be shrugged off as PR but I have said this many times before; I would never ever partake in a business that was in any way unscrupulous or crooked.  I've quit jobs in the past because I didn't agree with their business practices and can say with all certainty that we run a tight, clean ship.  Have there been bumps in the road?  Of course, but David, myself, and the rest of the staff go out of our way to make sure that the agencies we work with are on the up and up.  Any time we encounter a problem or accusation such as the ones presented here, we drop everything and investigate immediately. 

You're absolutely right that there are agencies using shady practices that we might not know about, but here's the thing- we're watching them every day and the moment something happens that might compromise the validity of our service, we cut them off completely.  When we were told about the ladies being on prostitution sites, we deactivated their profiles, talked to them extensively, and removed the one that presented even the smallest potential for problems. 

 

Again, I greatly appreciate the chance to address these issues.  Forums like this are a wonderful place for people to get information and exchange ideas and criticisms. 

 

 

[Patrick H]

[user=986]SANDRO43[/user] wrote:

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:

Sandro,
I appreciate it and respect the fact that you're willing to make such a change.  But don't you see the flaw in the process when you don't confirm?

Patrick,
how on earth could I do that ? I repeat what I said before, do you seriously expect a pro site owner to answer a query such as : "Hey, is your girl #XYZ really a hooker ? I think she might be a decent girl, please investigate and report !"

 

Sandro,

No offense but if it's too much work to check your facts before labeling someone as a hooker, perhaps you should find a new hobby.  What you're essentially telling me is that it's far easier for you to automatically label someone as a hooker than it is to actually do some work and find out if it's true.  This kind of thinking gave us a little gem called IMBRA- speculate first, investigate later.....or in this case never.

"do you seriously expect a pro site owner to answer a query such as : "Hey, is your girl #XYZ really a hooker ? I think she might be a decent girl, please investigate and report !""

Honestly I don't expect anything from people like that (Prostitution site owners).  What I do expect is that if a man is going to go through the trouble of writing code for a scam site, posting pictures, trolling MOB sites for clues, that he also take just a little time to make sure he's doing the right thing by checking his facts.  You could have contacted us at any time, you could have contacted any of the MOB sites that you listed and asked them, "Hey, is your girl #XYZ really a hooker?" because I can assure you that if they were worth their salt they'd drop everything and find out for themselves.  In fact, your exact response to someone's request for this was, "I took no notes on them, and, sorry, I am not going to spend other time on that issue. I see no reason to render HRB a service by cleaning out their dirty stables."  I mean, if you're not willing to take that one extra step to inform the MOB agency itself how do you expect these kinds of things to stop happening?

As I said, your site identifies a problem that does exist but unfortunately it falls short of doing anything but posting racy pictures and making unsubstantiated accusations. 

[Rvrwind]

Day of Days Patrick!!! I have in the past been not so kind towards your company & as a competitor it was something I should not have indulged in & for that I apologize right here right now. I won't say I agree with your system or your methods totally but we all have our own ways of conducting buisness & I cannot say that because yours are different they are wrong.

Under the current circumstances on the question that is raised here I find myself steadfastly in your corner. Not something you thought you would ever see, LOL. Although I know nothing of the ladies in Sandros post & have not visited his site or yours I have however found myself in this very situation.

A lady here in Tver, a very attractive lady whom I am very good friends with through my wife, was listed with another agency here in Tver that is known for taking somewhat sexy photos. No nudity or really explicit stuff, just sexy. About 6 months after her photos were posted on thier site they also turned up on a porn site in Moscow offering sex for money. Now I know for a fact & will stake my life on the fact that this lady is not & never has been a prostitute. She merely was searching for love & bingo, winds up on a porn site. She was devistated. She eventually with my wife & my encouragement sued the porn site for slander & leeching her photos. She won,  but the experience has turned her off & she has quit the agency she was with & refuses to join another, even mine. Although she fully trusts me & loves me like a brother she does not trust the internet.

This is really an unfortunate thing that these lowlifes ruined her life for a few hundred bucks. Chances are she will marry a Russian guy now & that too is unfortunate as she is a great lady, very attractive & would be a great wife. The hard facts are their are a lot of sleazy lowlife operators out there & the sooner the law starts making them accountable, the better I say.

Personally prosecution isn't good enough but what I'd like to see done I cannot say on the board as Dan would never let me back on again. Suffice to say, remember the movie Diliverance, oink, oink...

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[Bruno]

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:

Bruno I'm not even sure how to respond to that kind of logic.  We don't allow the exchange of contact information for several reasons, all of which have been beaten to death on both message boards.  We've never ever written on behalf of the women and I challenge you to prove otherwise.  But to say that WE stole the photos, sir that is absolutely laughable.  If you want to believe that, it's your prerogative.  Misguided sure, but it's your prerogative.  We have a five person graphics department and the idea of us leeching .jpg's from a prostitution site is absolutely amazing to me. 

And for the record 103389 was removed by her agency that moment they saw the nude photographs.  But I guess in this bizarro world, that must mean they're in on the game too. 

Both message boards ??? Do you post on antidate ? These forum and antidate are the only two i use... Patrick, my goal is not destroy you business by saying that you are bad... and now, you have finaly give a good reply... 103389 was a black sheep and you have remove her... So, yes, it can happen that some of your lady are not honest... this don't make a agency bad... a bad agency don't remove the bad profile... you have remove it, this is a very positive point for you...

I have rule myself two agency in the last 10 year... i have the honor to say that i have always try have a low rate of scammer, GCG, sex holliday girls, hoocker... but it was never a 100% secure... always some have go trought control and in this case, it was customer who have help me to detect the bad girls...

The graphics department and the no need to leech photo wake-up new question... what do you think of these girl...



Sexy young lady... can be make by a graphics department... render with blender... Sorry member of RWD, these girl don't exist... fully artificial with the help of 3D program... a good graphics department can make a videoclip without problem... all like a real woman...

Patrick, i don't say that you use some artificial girls... but it can be a usual method for scam in the near future... picture are not a problem now, only a few hours render on a normal PC... but for video, you need a computer farm for render... but what in a few year... same video chat will not be a secure way...

My point is that nothing can replace a face to face meeting and that technology is only a help for scammer... why thief picture when you can easily create one who is realistic...
 
I'm not sure in how many languages or different ways I can put this, but I'll try to make it simple.    Woman has numerous photographs taken in a professional studio, some classy and some racy.  She then approaches legitimate MOB service and gives them the classy photographs and posts the other photographs on another MOB site that allows the racy ones.  Somewhere down the line a prostitution site comes along and says, "Hey, she's hot.  Let's make a profile of her and sell it."  Lady then finds out that she's somewhere in Italy selling sex while she freezes at home in Moscow. 

In the case that i have follow, the 103389... these lady have first begin post on prostitution site in 2004... only few month later, she have post on MOB business....

Sorry if i keep speak of one lady already removed but make research ask time and i have limited time... so, i have only make control for these... your other lady's listed on the Sandro site don't follow the same path... picture on the prostitution site is the same that these on your site, usual photo's...

So again, i repeat that all is right since you say that the bad one is removed... but it also imply that some bad girls can be register on your site, same if it is for a short time... I have no problem with this since no one agency is bullet proof at 100%... i only don't agree that you have never have prostitute on your site... it can happen and all is right if your correct it... nobody is perfect, not i and not your... reconize that mistake or error are possible is something normal...

It's interesting that you're so hung up on who stole the photographs and not the fact that they don't imply anything about her profession at all. 

Because i can care  about the profession...  For me, a prostitute  is a women like other...  I have know several prostitute like friend when i was in the Navy... Several of them have a boyfriend, have child, have good character, are kind... simply a difficult life have lead them on these profession...  They are not evil, they are human like us...  The difference between a hoocker and a bitch is that the first one ask money and the other make it free... why the first will be more bad that the second one...  So, it is way i feel no problem  with the profession of these girls...

There's a really great thread somewhere on this board where several agency owners take a childlike joy in the fact that we may have gone out of business or that David was fired; both of which are of course false.

It is way i have say that almost nobody here are against you exept maybe one or two guy... I am here long enough and i have good memory... i remember the several post about you from Jack... and maybe a few from other... but what are these few members if we see the whole membership, almost 1000 people...

Thanks for the welcome and actually I agree that Sandro's site is making some valid observations about a problem that does exist.  My problem came from the fact that there was no disclaimer of any kind stating that these were just observations.  It says in no uncertain terms "Below are cases of professionals with profiles also on dating sites, usually giving totally different names for obvious reasons of concealment."  In my view there's no speculation there, it's being presented as fact.

Please, Sandro site is the first one i know who is related to MOB and prostitution... It is a younfg site, make by a amateur like a hobby... give him some time to become a mature project... of course, he can make mistake ( and i hope repair it when he realize that he is wrong )... but these new tool is a alarm for several newbies... for inform them about a potential danger... and the danger in itself is not the work of the women but the lie about her actual/previous work... a young very sexy cute FSU woman can maybe have know more men that a professional prostitute... but if she lie now, she can lie later...

No offense but if it's too much work to check your facts before labeling someone as a hooker, perhaps you should find a new hobby.  What you're essentially telling me is that it's far easier for you to automatically label someone as a hooker than it is to actually do some work and find out if it's true.

How do you wich that he check the fact... for each girl, a trip to russia, fuck her and see if she ask money after the night together ? He only report lady listed on MOB agency and on prostitution site... The fact that women are listed on both can be see by the link he post... He never say that somebody is a hooker but it show that somebody is listed on MOB agency and on prostitution site...

If yourself make a list of the people who have murder other the last 10 year, do you ask these to murder you for check if you are right or do you trust the police record... i agree that almost all the criminal say that they are not guilty but do you believe them ?

[Patrick H]

Rvrwind,

I honestly appreciate your support on this issue.  Though our respective businesses may not see eye to eye I'm sure that a lot of us can understand that these women ultimately suffer with this kind of situation.  We can all agree that there are pro's running around out there taking advantage of the system but there are also a lot of wonderful ladies just trying to find the right person.  This kind of pratice is not only wrong, it puts all of the industry in a bad light, not to mention the men who are trying to legitimately using it.  When the good ladies get thrown into the wrong pile it can ruin someone's life.

Thanks again.

[Patrick H]

Bruno,

I don't know, she looks pretty fake to me.  You can tell by the way her body is contrasted against the background, that and the fact that she looks like a robot. 

But to make my answer short, this is why we require a passport photo and a second form of photo ID (if possible) before we let any lady register on our site.  Yes those can be faked but you're hard pressed to find an agency in Moscow or Ukraine with the technology available to make a 3D rendering.  Believe me, we've seen some tricks that agencies try to pull and they're not subtle at all.  They might have been amazing in 1993 but with our software we can see right through them. 

I appreciate your response nonetheless.

 

[Bruno]

A lady here in Tver, a very attractive lady whom I am very good friends with through my wife, was listed with another agency here in Tver that is known for taking somewhat sexy photos. No nudity or really explicit stuff, just sexy. About 6 months after her photos were posted on thier site they also turned up on a porn site in Moscow offering sex for money. Now I know for a fact & will stake my life on the fact that this lady is not & never has been a prostitute. She merely was searching for love & bingo, winds up on a porn site. She was devistated. She eventually with my wife & my encouragement sued the porn site for slander & leeching her photos. She won,  but the experience has turned her off & she has quit the agency she was with & refuses to join another, even mine. Although she fully trusts me & loves me like a brother she does not trust the internet.

It is way it is always good hear the story from both side... MOB business thief, porno site thief... Men lies, women lies...

Same you Richard, who try to be honest and rule a ethics business are not protect against bad girls... of course, you cannot use lie detector during interview of the girls and if later, it appear that she was a bad one, it is your own reputation who will suffer...

Some girls are listed on black list without real reason, simply because they have not accept to marry a guy who have visit them since they don't love him but the man cannot accept this...

I don't trust black list, i don't trust agency, i don't trust myself... Sandro site are a warning but don't mean that the fire is running... Men seeking bride ( localy or internationaly ) need to use brain... know that danger exist... make choice ( i hope the right one )...

Nothing is secure of sure at 100%... but several of us are shooting the last munition... i have make a mistake when i was around 30 year old... now, at almost 38 year old, i can maybe make one more ( i hope no )... but what about people over 50 year old... it is the last opportunity... do they need take a risk or be suspicious ?

But the real problem is not HRB or other agency, it is the men unrealistic expectation... why a very sexy women from  18 year old will have interest in mary a old one from 60 year old... money, green card, etc... until you have so men with unrealistic expectation, you will have scammer for suck them.. and unfortunaly, you will have collateral damage : bad reputation for agency, honest good people hurted, etc ...

[Bruno]

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:

I don't know, she looks pretty fake to me.  You can tell by the way her body is contrasted against the background, that and the fact that she looks like a robot. 

But to make my answer short, this is why we require a passport photo and a second form of photo ID (if possible) before we let any lady register on our site.  Yes those can be faked but you're hard pressed to find an agency in Moscow or Ukraine with the technology available to make a 3D rendering.  Believe me, we've seen some tricks that agencies try to pull and they're not subtle at all.  They might have been amazing in 1993 but with our software we can see right through them. 
 

It is a little

Yes, she seem fake... but i am sure not for everybody It is a fast render, around 20 minute but i can have realistic result with a few hours render... same the effect of light go trought the skin... the technology exist and is already used.

About passport photo, i have used it for my last site... only one false copy detected on almost one year ( on around 500 profile )... this mean that it is not 100% sure but it is a good method...

About 3D technology in Ukraine, it will be possible next month... My lady have ask me to bring her a copy of Mandriva 2006 for her... Blender is in the software package... Of course, with her low memory ( 128 Mb ) and low processor ( pentium 3 at 1 Ghz ), for render the previous picture, one full night will be needed... but it is possible... and it is the computer who work, not the owner ( who is sleeping at night )...

My point is that fake is possible, technology allow it... how much false american visa are not make with photoshop for the classical visa/airplane scam... some are very good... check the picture don't allow to see if it is true of false... lucky, several scammer are lazy and they forget clean the metadata from the jpg...

Nobody is proteted... not the client, not the agency... give me one month and i can create a woman who don't exist, with passport, visa, photo, video clip, with a sportif record in FSU, with some genealogy, etc ... Yep, great, i can stop my work like gardener and earn money from idiot who send me gift and money for my english lesson, for new mobile phone, for pay my car crash, for my stay in hospital... Sh!t, why i am honest, i can win a lot of money without problem if i wish...

[SANDRO43]

[user=1049]Patrick H[/user] wrote:
 "I took no notes on them, and, sorry, I am not going to spend other time on that issue. I see no reason to render HRB a service by cleaning out their dirty stables." I mean, if you're not willing to take that one extra step to inform the MOB agency itself how do you expect these kinds of things to stop happening?

Because I think it is YOUR duty to verify whether you have scammers in your site, not MINE. My sources of information on scammers are also public and available to you, too, if you care to use them, and I am not in the employ of HRB.

Anyway, I made a quick scan of some of your pages by way of an exercise, and here's my FREE contribution to you :
1. Haustova T (#141546) is listed as scammer at :
- http://www.stop-scammers.com/profile.asp?profile=120
- http://www.scamalert.freeservers.com/Profiles/StoZ/T/tatyana-khaustova.html
2. TatianaZh374  (#122236): I remember she is listed as scammer Zhilkina somewhere. I shall give you her details if and when I find them again.
3. You should check Larisa806  (#167363), she looks rather similar to a Tatyana at :
- http://uaprofiler.com/profiles/profile.php?id=1494

As I said, your site identifies a problem that does exist but unfortunately it falls short of doing anything but posting racy pictures and making unsubstantiated accusations.

Well, I must say I was VERY surprised to hear that you removed #103389, after your hot defense of her case . May I ask what prompted your drastic and apparently inconsistent decision ?

[jb]

Good Christ, what a mess~!!!!

 Patrick, I've seen 12 y.o.'s express less convoluted logic when caught in a lie.  You are a wizard at obfuscation, I'll give you that.

[Jack]

This thread is labeled Double Dealers but looks to me like it should be re-titled Double Talker!
 
First I think what Sandro43 has done is a service, it is an awakening.  All he has done is gone to some websites and taken photos that are being promoted as escorts or hookers. Sandro43 didn't add these photos to these escort/hooker sites, he copied them (or as Patrick H from Hot Russian Brides says "leeched" them) from an already existing site and put them on his newly created site. He is exposing to us what he found. He didn't have to say these are hookers or whores, it's spelled out on the site!!  What the hell are we to think $100, $200 an hour is talking about?

 
Patrick, you seem to be a bit defensive about me mentioning the name Hot Russian Brides. I have stated many times, I like the name Hot Russian Brides. Seldom does the name alone of an agency excite anyone but whenever I hear the name Hot Russian Brides, I get excited. I can assure you this Patrick, if the name Hot Russian Brides ever becomes available and I can get it, I will. Damn, I like that name. Even when you were asked once if the name embarrassed you, you replied no. I don't blame you. But I do have to wonder why you take such offense to me liking the name as much as you do.
 
Now Patrick, about some of this double talking I see you doing.
 
You call yourself Hot Russian Bride but you say your NOT a marriage agency!  That in itself seems a little deceptive, Russian Brides, but your not a marriage agency?   Ok.
 
A former client of yours wrote  "You gotta be kiddin right? Everytime I log on to HRB I have to turn my popblocker on after loggin in to block all those 18 yr olds that want to chat. My blocker "clicks" on HRB at least twice a minute. On the site where I got her contact info my blocker never once clicked."    And what do you write about a competitor,..."One only needs to look at the porn banners at the bottom of the web page to guess why it only costs $10 for the address. I also enjoyed the flurry of pop-ups that threatened to crash my computer when I clicked on one of the "legitimate" links.  
 
I thought at one time maybe Hot Russian Brides provided ladies address but that's just an assumption on my part and I am probably wrong but you did write "we don't sell people's addresses. Honestly we don't care what the "going rate" is for a woman's address, we find the whole practice distasteful."   However you also write "Plain and simple; purchase 2,500 credits once and you're given access to any of the ladies' Independent Agencies."  Patrick, what do you think happens then?  Don't you think the Independent Agencies (who you admit you control the reigns on what they say and do) are going to provide this information to the client?  Or do you turn your head away when the Independent Agencies provide this contact information? Patrick, you are providing men with these ladies contact information, once they have paid you $1000 or used 2500 credits. So although you find the whole practice distasteful, for the right price, you'll turn your head the other way.
I can hear you now, We don't control what are agencies do,  but you have already said you do. So if the agency does allow the client this ladies contact information, after checking with the lady and getting her permission, you ARE selling the ladies contact information for $1000.
 
You write "we don't arrange trips" but then you write "all of our affiliates are well briefed as to what we're expecting from customers before they travel."   And I assume these are the same agencies you are referring to when you say "No we didn't own any agencies but we do hold the reigns on anything they said or did on our site and with our customers".
 
Patrick you wrote,..."Other sites rely on 3rd parties to orally validate their ladies.   NOT US! "
 
Ok, then so it was your people who allowed an American porn queen to become a member of Hot Russian Brides.
 
You wrote the following Patrick,...."When you use our service youre being guaranteed that all of the ladies are real and that theyre here for the right reasons."  ...."You're very right that we serve as an intermediary between the men but I can assure you that we have full knowledge of what our agencies do on our site.......No we didn't own any agencies but we do hold the reigns on anything they said or did on our site and with our customers.......I have deactivated both profiles and removed the agency from our list of services.......On your website you write "Upon signup, each and every lady on our website must submit a valid photo id in person with the local Independent Company/Agency Representative with whom we work. Furthermore, we have spoken with each lady to ensure she is a willing and motivated participant in our service. ".
 
Well Patrick, I guess all that is true with the exception of the porn queen and the many ladies writing the man they found so handsome who was 0 inches tall and the photo of the man was actually a blue pick-up truck.  I know Patrick, a bad agency you got rid of, an employee not doing her job allowing the porn queen.  When you get caught these are your excuses.  The truth is, as I see things, the only time you react to scammers in your base or scam agencies you are working with is after you have been told by your clients, by Russian discussion boards or by undercover TV reports.  You essentially admit that when you said "once you tell us about something we take action against them"  but Patrick WHY is it that you have to be told of these infractions???   Can we assume if no one told you about the scams and scam agencies, hookers and porn queens they would still be on your site? What scams are going on now that we have not told you about?  You write "Our customer service staff works non-stop to make sure that the agencies, ladies, and customers are acting in an appropriate manner"  but Patrick, if that was the case, why are you not removing scammers, scam agencies, porn stars (and now maybe hookers) until after your told by sources other than your customer service staff that is working non-stop to prevent these same scammers, scam agencies, porn stars and maybe hookers who have become part of the Hot Russian Brides family?
 
 
I see you often making snide remarks about agencies bad mouthing Hot Russian Brides but it's ok for you to bash them with your own remarks such as ......my comments were not in any way defaming their site and were simply observations of its performance..........I'm not bashing the integrity of the agency but merely questioning the services that they may or may not be able to provide......

It should be noted that I'm not specifically labeling this particular site as negative but the practice of contact information purchases in general..........One also has a hard time ignoring the glaring grammar and spelling mistakes on the company's mission statement.......I was merely pointing out the credibility issues of a company who advertises for hardcore pornography on their dating site......... I've looked at these "other agencies" and can only marvel at the sites they associate themselves with........ Most of these other sites pay the ladies to meet you once for dinner and then leave you at the doorstep........ there are plenty of companies who would be more than happy to sell you bogus contact information all day.........
 
Patrick in this industry it is usually wonderful if for every 25 happy clients we have, we have only one un-happy. It's hard no doubt, but something to shoot for. You guys at Hot Russian Brides seem to have things just the opposite, for every one happy client you have, it seems you have 25 un-happy clients. All one has to do is look at the three most popular Russian discussion boards, I see complaints after complaints. I have not seen ONE happy client post. I know there must be one, has to be, maybe even two, but I have not read of these happy clients on any discussion board. So I decided to go to your website and I would write some of your many happy clients and get some feed back from them, and what do I see,...
 
.I can't tell you how impressed I am with your service. I'll be a long time member. Thanks again!"
- Christopher

I have been using the Internet both personally and professionally for many years now and find your site to be perhaps the most efficient one that I have ever interfaced with. My search for my future wife led me to your website, and I could not be more pleased!"

- Douglas

"Thanks very much! You guys are the best in the business! I do appreciate your generous and courteous service. I will recommend your company to my friends. Thanks again for incredible service!"

- Scot

Great, I will write Chris or Doug or Scot, but wait, they say how great you are, but their is no way to contact them, no e-mail address. Hummmm, better look at some more references, ah shucks, all these great references Patrick and NOT one that we can write, not one who has allowed you to post his e-mail address. You know Patrick I find it so disheartening to see all these wonderful and happy clients talking so proudly of the service they have received, makes me, others, want to talk to these happy references, but then not one even has an e-mail listed. You know Patrick I think sometimes agencies might make up such fantastic references, you know, "The best agency in the world" or "You guys are the best in the business", "The best service I ever received". I know I would like to talk to such happy reference. And often when you ask the agency with such glowing recommendations for e-mails to these happy clients it's "well, we need to call or write the reference and make sure that will be ok".  Why not post the e-mails on the website?  If these guys are so thrilled, so happy with the service they received, many will agree. Not all of course, some references will not agree to such, but most will, at least from my experience. And when I see ALL the fine references you guys have listed but NOT ONE e-mail to verify such a happy client, well Patrick, at least with me it makes me wonder.
 
At the same time I was on your site I was shocked to see at 3:30 and 3:45 in the morning (4:30 and 4:45 in some parts of Russia) ALL the fine young girls who were on-line.  Un-believable, at 3:30, 4:30 in the morning 20 year old 167575 a student, 20 year old 166480, 25 year old 167058 is a teacher, a teacher and she is online at 3:45 in the morning!!!  This is Wednesday night, Thursday morning, this is not Saturday night, a weekend night, this is during the week!! 159222 a 23 year old teacher was online at 4:30, 155596 a 21 year old student at 4:30am, 164245 an 18 year old student online at 3:30, again on Thursday morning, 167153 a 19 year old student at 4:30. 169488 a 21 year old student at 3:30am, and all these girls are looking for dates at your agencies!!!!! This is crazy! 169091, 24, at 3:45, 157119, 24 at 3:45, 165878 20 year old girl at 3:30 in the morning online chatting, 161422, 26 at 3:45, 169488, 21, at 3:30, 153002, 22, at 3:30. Another teacher, 24, online at 3:45am. How is this lady going to teach class if she is at one of your dating agencies at 3:45 in the morning? 21 year old student 162486 online at 3:45, another teacher, 22, 167027 online at 3:45. A 26 year old lady, 155525 online at 3:30, a 20 year old girl, 162266 online at 3:50am. Another teacher, 162259, what's with these teachers at your dating agencies at 3:45 in the morning? A 21 year old student, 167865 online at 3:30am, 162478, 21 years of age online at 3:45, another 21 year old student 167463, 3:30am, 166932, 22 years of age online at 3:40, 166932, 22 year old, online at 3:30, 164487, 20, online 3:45, 166811, 22 years of age, online 3:30, another student (how are these students getting enough sleep?) 162261, a 22 year old, 162258, 3:45, another 20 year old student 156929, 3:45, a lawyer, 22, 155078, online at 3:45, ANOTHER teacher, 168514, 24, online at 3:30, and a young lady who prefers much older men (I can understand why she is on so late) 20 year old student 165070 online at 3:50. 
 
Patrick I have a little experience with women, ladies, girls of the FSU. Something's not right here. All these young ladies, some teachers, at dating agencies at 3:30 to 4:30am in the morning during the week?  I know, there has to be a good explanation. 

[Patrick H]

JB,

Perhaps you could elaborate on my "convoluted logic" and exactly what I'm lying about.  I'd very much be interested to see what you have to say beyond a single sentence personal attack.  All I've done is state that the girls Sandro listed as being on both our site and the prostitution site were innocent of that charge.  So if possible, please elaborate on your point.



Jack,

You never cease to amaze me.  The above post is the very definition of the "straw man" argument, not to mention totally transparent.  It seems to me that instead of sticking to the thread topic you once again hijack the board and bring up your same old arguing points against us.  Some would call that misdirection.


All of the testimonial contact information is available upon request by customers.  Those members asked for that much privacy, as they don't feel comfortable putting their personal email addresses out there for all to see unless it's specifically asked for.  And to refute your claim, there have been more than a few "happy client" posts, they just seem to get dog-piled on as soon as they speak up.  It should also be noted that not everyone comes to these forums, more to the point, most stumble across this and other forums while doing random searches.  So believe it or not, there are a lot of people who use various services and never once find this particular place.


I will say though, for someone who is so concerned about needing verification on our happy clients, you sure don't give anyone a chance to review your product.  With all of your nay saying, I'd love to see your site at work.  Would that be possible, or is this always going to be a one-way attack?  I'd also like to see some hard numbers about those chat times, unless of course I'm supposed to take everything you write as fact.  

 

Thanks to those who gave me a chance to speak. 

[Jack]

Hello Patrick H.
Welcome to the RWD Patrick and welcome to the big leagues.
I guess it's good that I am able to amaze you. Much like the amazement I feel seeing all these young girls sitting in your dating agencies at 3-4am in the morning.
Not sure what you mean by the definition of the straw man argument. Did I post or suggest anything to you that you feel was not the truth?  If so let's please discuss. What did I post that was transparent?
 
Regarding all your fine references, why must potential clients request from you the contact information of these fine, outstanding references? And the answer from you is, "Because this is your business model, this is how you have decided to do business". No one can tell you how to run your business. I was just making an observation. To me, if I had as many fine references on my website as you had on yours, I would certainly want potential clients to be able to contact those happy past, or current, references. And I am sure we'll have a differing opinion here, you say your members ask for that privacy. I say to my happy clients if your so happy about our services and you want to be a reference, I would prefer to be able to post your e-mail address, what good is your reference if men cannot contact you to verify all those fine things your saying. And your right Patrick, some guys don't want to give out this information, but a great many do. And with all the fine references you have, you mean to say that not one of those fine references, those references that speak so highly for what you have done for them, not one will allow you to include their e-mail address? I have seen it time and time again Patrick. New agencies, like yours, wanting to appear to have many fine references will just make them up. And I'm not saying yours are made up but I have seen agencies who have done so in the past. References like "Your the best in the industry. Bob. California". And when you go to ask Bob about why he feels so strongly about that agency, you can't!  No way to write Bob.
 
Patrick, you have 32 happy references listed. Could I write each of these 32 references and ask them personally about the services they received?
 
You say there have been more than a few happy clients who have posted on a few of the discussion boards. I apologize, I did not see a one of these. Could you please point them out to me now, I would really like to read of just two past happy Hot Russian Brides clients. Can you tell me what discussion board, under what topic? Thanks.
 
Regarding your comment about not giving anyone a chance to review our product, and you would like to see our site at work. Patrick, our site (now 9 years old)  is a secret. We try not to tell anyone it's name or it's url address. But once you have been around awhile, once you have been around the block a few times, once you become a little more knowledgeable as to the industry you will probably be able to learn about our hidden site.
 
You ask for hard numbers to verify all those young girls sitting in your dating agencies at 3-4am in the morning. I thought you would not believe it either so I went to save the information. There were five pages at the time, 44 ladies online. I went to save page 1, could not be saved, nor could you save page 2, 3, 4 or 5 as your system does not allow the pages to be saved.
 
Easy enough Patrick, I have sent you each of the girls ID number, I have sent you the time they were online. Can you not look up each ID number and call the agency manager and confirm that lady was sitting in the dating agency at 3:30 in the morning? Why sure you can. Patrick, please take the ID numbers, I went to the time and trouble to save this information, surely you can contact your dating agencies and verify this. I hope you will and I hope you will let us know what your research found out.
 
 

 

[Patrick H]

Jack,

Thank you for your reply and please be assured that my amazement was purely humorous at best.  Although I will say that your ability to skirt basic questions is pretty amazing.  "Secret agency"?  Wow.  And the "transparency" I was referring to was not referencing your allegations but your actions.  It can be likened to someone who constantly makes aggressive comments because they themselves are a bit intimidated; i.e. your motives are transparent. 

 And so you know, here's the definition of a "straw man" argument: A straw-man argument (sometimes erroneously called "straw-dog argument") is a rhetorical technique based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, since the argument actually presented by the opponent has not been refuted.

The reason why the testimonial contact information is only available upon request is because the customers themselves requested it as such.  Despite what you may believe, a lot of people aren't comfortable with their home phone and email readily viewable by just anyone on the internet.  We've made it so that if a customer is truly curious, we'll provide the information with no problem and they can ask whatever they wish.  This way, we cut down on any prank calls or spammers trying to flood their respective emails.  And Jack, the key word here is "customers" or even "potential customers.", which of course does not include you. 

I will throw you a bone of sorts.  Most of the numbers you listed were never chatting during those times, nor were they ever online.  If you had taken the time and courtesy to actually ask me, I could tell you that those agencies have full time translators that work in 12-hour shifts.  When the ladies give them their email responses in hard copy form in Russian, the translators do their thing (translating) and then send them to the men.  The reason for this is because the the agencies get so inundated with emails from the men that they had to expand their translation services to later hours.  I have looked over all of the transaction histories that you listed but unfortunately you never give dates, so I'm not sure when you're speaking of.  Because you also don't give any chat transcripts or any other evidence that they were chatting, I have no reason to think otherwise.  For the record though, almost all of the number you listed NEVER chatted during those hours. 

Jack I'm not going to be baited into your same tired routine, because I've seen threads eventually locked down from this kind of banter.  If you would like to PM me on this issue, I'd be more than happy to discuss this further.  The thread has gone off topic enough.  The point of this thread and the point of me responding to it, was the allegation that three of our ladies were prostitutes.  I've answered that claim and covered about as many angles to those questions as possible.  Your attempts to steer it towards your own goal of haggling over our correpondence policy and other issues is misguided and tiring at this point. 

Unfortunately though, I've actually got lots of work to do and can't hover around these forums all day (helping to run a successful non-secret site).  If someone has any questions or anything else that might need my attention, by all means PM me or email me through any of our sites and I'd be more than happy to answer them. 

Thanks again everyone for your time on this issue.

[Jack]

Patrick I never suggested or said anything about a reference providing his phone number, I certainly would never ask a reference to divulge his phone number, where did this come from?  However I will stand behind my business preference of asking guys who would like to offer a reference "What good is your reference if men cannot contact you directly" and you know what Patrick, most guys agree. Why all 32 of your references refuse to include an e-mail address so others can verify what they have said seems a bit queer and unusual to me.  Of course it's your business and you can do what you want but might I suggest next happy client who wants to offer his reference ask him if you can include an e-mail address. In my opinion if you have done a wonderful job for this guy he will gladly offer you an e-mail address to go with his reference.
 
Ok, since you don't want me verifying your 32 happy references next client I get who ask's about Hot Russian Brides I will ask him to contact you so he can contact your many happy references.
 
Ohhhhh, so now your saying all those 18, 19, 20, 22 year old girls were really not at the dating agencies at that time. Even though each of the profiles said " Chat live with Oksana and watch her live!"  or  "Chat live with Elena and watch her live!" , etc, etc.  This seems as being VERY deceptive Patrick. Now your saying that most of those girls were really not there at the time even though it was indicated you could talk live with her and see her on video at that time. Patrick, why would you show on the girls profile she was there to chat live and watch live if she really was not there?
 
Patrick hopefully you just missed the question and are not dodging it, you said that there have been more than a few happy Hot Russian Brides clients who have posted on the discussion boards, could you tell me which site and under what topic. Thanks.
 

[andrewfi]

Patrick ~ I would not claim that every girl who has pictures on an MOB site and a site advertising herself as a hooker is a hooker, just as I know that not every profile in every agency is genuine.

But as at least one other person has pointed out if there are two sets of pictures and in one a girl is showing more flesh than your agency would permit and in the second they are acceptable to you and used by you, well, we know which path the pictures could NOT have taken.

As you maybe dont know, photographers in the FSU are not easily affordable by most girls. Most girls don't even have their own camera, let alone the money to pay for a studio setup for glamour pics. The ONLY way that most attractive but unremarkable women will have a set of studio pics is if someone is paying for them. So, that raises questions. Are your as doing glamour/soft porn shoots for the girls? Do you approve of this? Who IS paying for the pics? I hear the sound of ducks quacking! How do you explain a young girl affording to pay for sets of glamour/softcore pics? Once you have explained that, let us get started on just how those pics end up on online prostitution catalogues.

We know that it is much easier for a client of a hooker who uses a website to advertise herself to comment on the veracity of pics and person than it is for clients of MOB agencies, you will not see many posts from clients claiming that women are not real. But when they do, they are usually referring to obvious situations where models have had pics lifted from other websites etc - not really likely in your situation though - due to the nature of the content.

Girl broke down- Well she would, wouldn't she? What else might be a sensible and likely reaction? 'Yes Patrick, I am a tart!' I doubt it...:cool:

BTW, back to definitions of many... If only 150 guys have actually made a trip to the FSU under your aegis, then I suggest that this truly is 'not many' given the volume of business that you and your employees have claimed.

Really though, you know that there are hookers and ex-hookers on your site. You don't know which they are, although I bet your affiliates do! You don't even KNOW which girls are real. Surely better to be realistic and deal with the realities than to try to obfuscate and claim something that is palpably untrue.

[Patrick H]

Actually Andrewfin, that's 150 since January of this year.

[andrewfi]

Sorry for double posting.

I am curious.

Jack claims that he has the names and id numbers of a load of women who were online on the HRB system during Russian sleepy times. Patrick claims that they were not online at those times, but that he has teams of translators working around the clock.

OK, I'll bite.

Is Jack lying?

If he is not, then why would translators be online, representing themselves as female clients during the night? They should be busy writing emails on behalf of the girls, not pretending to be other people - or did I miss something? Coz, I am with Jack here! Unless the girls are being paid to be online to chat during the sleepy times, they would be at home asleep. (OK I have a bit of problem with the idea of nightshifts for translators as well, but let us let than one pass eh?)

If he is lying, well, actually I tend to think it unlikely that he is.

150 in almost 4 months. What is that, about 5% of your active membership during that period? In proportionate terms about the same as was reckoned to be the proportion of hookers and ex hookers by Sandros?

[Patrick H]

Sad really.  I came back to answer a PM and got sucked back into this rubbish.

Andrewfin,

The translators are not representing anyone.  When they log into  the profiles to send the emails they don't chat, or video chat, or  anything of the sort.  All that it shows is that the lady is  online, nothing more.  Once the translators push the messages out,  they log off and go about their business.  It's a simple as a  green light coming on, then going off.  We actually had a member  complain the other day because he saw the lady come online but not chat  with him, when the he kept pressing for answers the translator informed  him that she was simply sending out the messages and apologized.

As we rewrite the site we're in the process of fixing that flaw.   All Jack has are the numbers of ladies who appeared to be online during  late night hours in the FSU.  He was not approached for chat, nor  did he view them on their webcams.  From every record I have, they  weren't chatting during those times, there's no transcripts, and their  login times where less than thirty minutes a piece.  Of course, my  records must be lies and his uncharted observations must be fact.  After all, he's running a super secret agency and I'm but a lowly Administrator.

 

"They should be busy writing emails on behalf of the girls, not pretending to be other people - or did I miss something?"

Nice try.  They're not writing anything on behalf of the ladies,  they're translating the messages written by the ladies and entering  them in the system during times when the ladies are not able to come to  the office.  Strangely enough, that's what translators do.   I'd appreciate it if you kept your words out of my mouth.

"Is Jack lying?"

Not my call to make. 

"If he is lying, well, actually I tend to think it unlikely that he is."

Yes because what would a rival business owner have to gain from  numerous failed attempts to discredit his competitors, while at the  same time keeping his own business shrouded in mystery?  It  baffles me.  What kind of service never advertises, never shows  anyone their product, and only caters to a "select" few? 
 

"150 in almost 4 months. What is that, about 5% of your active  membership during that period? In proportionate terms about the same as  was reckoned to be the proportion of hookers and ex hookers by Sandros?"

I'm sorry, was that a question?  Of course not, just another  baseless double-edged barb.  Now, if only we could get you to  write five sentences without emoticons, then we'd be on the right  track. 

Honestly Andrewfin, I'm not too concerned about what you "have a  problem with" or what policies Jack "believes are true".  You're  not a potential customer and from what I can see, neither of you are  actually looking for a RW.  Jack honestly expects me to provide  the contact information of our satisfied customers to him, even those  he's a competitor!  The very idea is so laughable I honestly  didn't think anyone had the guts to ever proposition it.

Our agencies are becoming so busy that they needed to expand their  operations to later hours in order to keep up with the number of  clients, that's the bottom line.  In the end I'm just happy that the three ladies who were  listed on Sandro's site are going to take legal action against the  prostitution sites who are portraying their images.  Though I  doubt highly if he'll check later on to see if they're removed, at  least they'll be able to put that garbage behind them and hold those  accountable.  Still, like Rvrwind said, that practice needs to be  crushed so that it can give this industry more room to breathe and grow  in a more positive fashion.

 

There (sighs) I'm done here.  For real this time.  I wish you all the best of luck.

[size="3"] [/size]

[Jack]

whoaaaaa Patrick, hold on there fella. I never said I attempted to chat to any of your girls, I never attempted to log on to view any of these young girls. You have a link on your site that says "see who's on-line now" and I clicked on that link. ALL the ladies I sent you (and several more I did not send you) were ladies who your system said was online at that time.  Only this morning did we learn that these girls were really not online ( I think a very deceptive practice) but it was actually your translators who were "turning on a green light" as they were sending out e-mails for these young girls. I never said I tried to chat with these ladies or to see them online, I think your trying to mislead here.
 
For you to claim I am not actually looking for a good Russian wife is just not true. More incorrect assumptions Patrick?  And as I am seeking a good Russian/Ukraine wife I do seek the services of good, honest and ethical marriage agencies, marriage agencies which allow it's potential clients to write to real references as opposed to reading probably made up references. I know Patrick you will be dishearten to learn I have scratched your marriage agency of my list of agencies to consider. If I have interest in any of the ladies from your site it won't be a problem finding them elsewhere where I, and others, can get direct contact with these ladies for about $975 less than your charging for the same service.
 
Regarding my secret agency with it's secret references and hookers I can't believe your so clueless, in fact I can't even believe were in the same business. Let me give you a hint, the First clue I will give you is its the type of agency you could find your dream bride.
 
I think your showing a lot of your in-experience when you say "most" men stumble across this and other forums. WRONG oh great wise one. The EDUCATED consumer "stumbles" across here. And it would be to your agencies best interest if none of your future clients stumble across this or any of the other forums. I have said for years that Anastasia best clients are the un-educated consumer. I think it will be a fair assumption that this will also apply to your future clients. Maybe I'm wrong with this expressed opinion but I think ANYONE who takes this pursuit serious enough to do their homework, to research the agencies, to ask for help and information from others, is NOT going to be doing business with Hot Russian Brides.
 
Everyone has welcomed you to RWD Patrick, like I said, your getting to the big leagues here. I hate to see you leave, especially before you can show us where are some of these many happy references who have indicated such on some of the Russian discussion boards. I cannot find one, not a single one, but I can find many who have expressed a great dissatisfaction with your agency. Like I said earlier, ten bad post's to one positive posts isn't going to keep the doors open for to long. Well, that along with $120,000 a month in overhead.