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Author Topic: A couple of questions  (Read 9910 times)

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Offline Turkey

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A couple of questions
« on: July 10, 2007, 03:58:50 PM »
I had a few questions for anyone:

-  How does one deal with the sample either representing/not representing the class?  The population found in a forum seems to be very specific (even within the forum 'space' as in different populations exist in both with different 'cultures') and may represent certain demographics that does not represent the whole population of men seeking international brides. 

-   Has anyone done an analysis on the differences between AW and FSUW  from dating sites?  Such as: counting the number of times the listing mentions family, career, phrasing such as "if you can make me laugh" vs. "someone with humor", intensity of relationship - interested in a serious relationship vs. looking for someone to date, etc.? 

I know that there will be at least one objection to this:

1.  What FSU women post is not what they mean.  I admit that I am suspicious that Tristan is Jen and the love potion is exactly this point (sorry Jen if i'm wrong, i've become more suspicious since joining this forum :)  BTW anyone seen Macman lately?)  What is meant by this is that there is a false hope for love because the potion or the perception of what the men think they are getting (family oriented woman) is in fact not true because the woman provided information that she thought would be attractive to men but did not believe them (ie she lied).

Yes people lie.  And yes people try to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.  This doesn't seem like news to me.  To what extent is something that would be interesting I think.  Do women on Match.com post more honest profiles?  If they do is it because they aren't looking for a 'real' relationship but are instead looking for a less serious relationship or feel they can 'change the man'?  Does this reflect AW inflexibility and propensity not 'sacrifice' in the relationship?  Is this simply AW valuing honesty?

I haven't been able to find the study yet by Svitlana Taraban, but I am pretty skeptical that her study is very meaningful.  By this, I mean that if you take the posts from the men's sites and the women's sites, they both mention that the Russian woman wants to have children.  Maybe this is the result of the population being post vs. pre-selection but it does seem pretty well accepted that child bearing age RW do want kids.

I would also point out that the concept of family and all of the moral ramifications are continually changing not only in the FSU but also the US.  I posted a link to an article about the PEW poll that came out (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey;_ylt=Ahon3IvoukfzPZ_S7iEHPQwDW7oF).  If a researcher is coming from a US perspective and points toward the 'concept of family' from the 'common' view they may not be referring to what either the men or FSUW consider to be 'family'.  Meaning if your view of family is primarily hot sex and a big house vs. having kids, then your perceptions of what you think is a family will directly impact how you view the relationships of others. 

One thing quoted (not sure which article) was the concept that kids represented different values such as sacrifice.  I've been mulling over this concept for the past week and I can't help but to think that there is a great deal of sacrifice that the men and especially the FSUW go through to make this work.  It seems to me that this sacrifice isn't something that would enter into the realm of realistic options for many Americans.  We are becoming more narcissictic as a society (shttp://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_7068.shtml).  It's not illogical for someone with 'traditional values' who values 'sacrifice' as a virtue to consider a foreign spouse given a society where more women remove themselves from relationships (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/us/16census.html?ex=1326603600&en=8b61820a6c4712e5&ei=5090) and where society as a whole is more narcissistic.






I did want to point out that Feminism does mean different things to different people.  I'm certain Christina Hoff Sommers and Gloria Steinem both consider themselves 'Feminists' but have radically different views on what that means.  I don't know anyone who disagrees with the former, but I think you will find almost everyone disagrees with the later (men and women).

http://www.friesian.com/feminism.htm

"The answer was really simple enough: in the 70's feminism came to be perceived as simply anti-family, anti-marriage, anti-children, and perhaps even anti-religion, not to mention anti-men. Most early feminists, as especially detailed by Graglia, certainly regarded marriage and family as so burdensome as to approach slavery. Feminism presented the family as a kind of prison, with a working career on the outside as a kind of liberation. This did not take into account that for most people a family has always been the meaning of their life, the finding and creation of the closest relatives that a human being can have. Men did not go to work to enjoy the self-fulfillment of work. They went to work to support their families, often at jobs that they positively hated, or at least just tolerated for the sake of the income. Few men were so fortunate as to be doing something fulfilling or interesting that paid the bills at the same time. While feminists lamented that women often give up years, or all, of their careers in order to have children, even men with hopes of a fulfilling career traditionally have often had to give up those hopes if they suddenly were responsible for a family [1].

But for most people, who never get anywhere near a professional degree in anything, the whole idea of a "fulfilling career" was a little ridiculous. A job was to make a living, and the worth of living was to have that home and spouse and children and some leisure to enjoy them, working at personal projects or hobbies and watching the kids grow up. Because of that, most men were simply bewildered and astonished by feminism back in the 70's; it seemed to come from some sort of comically different reality. At the same time, any women who knew what the working world was like (like Graglia), and who felt that their primary concern, whether they worked outside or not, was their family and children, not only felt bewildered but insulted:  feminism tended to portray home life as some sort of idiocy that no enlightened woman would be interested in. That is why the women's vote has rarely gone for out and out feminists (until, perhaps, in some 1992 races -- although there was still no "gender gap" in the votes cast for George Bush), even while working women did want equal pay for equal work, etc. On the CBS television magazine Sixty Minutes, in January 1992, Gloria Steinem said that only the "enemies of feminism" ever said that women could "have it all" -- both career and family. That is an astonishing thing for her to have said. If feminists had ever frankly admitted that family would be impossible for a real career woman (as it was for Steinem), then not only would feminism have failed at its own goals but it would simply have been Dead On Arrival for all but the smallest minority of woman; and it is inconceivable who these "enemies of feminism" would have been who could have perpetrated the hoax that women could have had both career and family. "

My biggest problem with feminism is that it only believes in nurture and not nature.  This leads feminist to become marxists in theory and practice.  It's a wonder how any of them believe in natural selection or even the value of biology.  But maybe i'm behind the times and feminism has truly opened its tent to more rational analysis.  As it is from my perspective they seem to ignore the fields of economics, biology, politics and history.  Certainly their contradiction with Bill Clinton undermined any credibility they may have had and exposed them for the political cause they actually are, as oppossed to an actual field of study.  Maybe i'm wrong.  How do feminist truly feel about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky?





Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 04:34:51 PM »
I'm sure glad I'm happily married and don't have to spend so much time analyzing any more.  :D

Offline Shadow

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 07:56:09 AM »
You make a bold statement in telling that RW lie in their post.
If you think they do not post what they mean, then perhaps you shold understand that
a) They in many cases do not know the language and the people posting 'help' in translation
b) Even if they do know, same words can mean different things in different countries.
c) Men lie as much as women in their profiles.

Would you ever see a profile that says 'I am ill-tempered, ugly and want a guy who gets me a green card and that I can use as a doormat' ?
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Wayne B

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 09:46:02 AM »
Shadow, I never did understand why one would lie about who he/she is.....if they were serious in this endever....did they forget that 'one day' they would meet each other in person 'eye to eye' :-\

Offline Turkey

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2007, 02:44:49 PM »
I'm sorry if what I posted wasn't clear.  Sometimes my mind runs faster than my fingers.

The section where I specifically use the term 'lie' was my interpretation of the use of the user-name Tristan.

Tristan and Isolde is an old story which was used for the libretto of Wagner's opera of the same name ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_und_Isolde )

"In the first Act, Isolde is being taken by ship to Cornwall to be married against her will to King Marke. She is furious with Marke's adopted son, Tristan, whose life she once spared and who has now betrayed her. She summons him to drink atonement to her. Tristan believes that this drink is poisoned, but takes it anyway, and Isolde drinks the remainder. Believing that they are about to die, they declare their true feelings of love for each other, but discover that Isolde's maid Brangaene has switched the drink for a love potion. In the second Act the lovers meet while the King and his party are out hunting at night, but they are discovered and Tristan is mortally wounded. In the third Act, Tristan, now returned alone to his lands in Kareol, and barely alive, yearns for Isolde. Only her return can save his life. At the end of the Act, Isolde does return, and Tristan dies in her arms. Isolde joins him in death, transfigured by grief."

I was saying that the use of the name was alluding to Jen's main assertion in her previous work where she puts forward the arguement that international marriages through agencies are predicated on false assumptions.  It is here that I described the difference as the 'lie'.  There is according to her, an incongruity between what is the true feelings by RW and what they post.  This deception is not true love just as true love can not be created by a potion.  It is interesting that the analogy has the elements of 'false love with the potential for real love', international aspects with the two main protagonists being from different nations, the female leaving her homeland for purposes other than love for Tristan.

I repeat though that this was only a suspicion on my part of who Tristan actually is and do not mean to defame Jen or the 'real' Tristan.

I follow through in the next two paragraphs to address Jen's specific thesis and my inability to find a copy of Ms. Taraban's paper.  Ms. Taraban is the individual who did a study that asserted that Ukranian women deliberate use terms to attract men.  Without having read that paper, I expressed some of my doubts. I'm fairly certain that there are serious problems with her analysis if it is performed with the same sloppiness as many of the papers i've read recently. 

In addition, I pointed to American dating sites and put forward the notion that dressing up your profile to attract mates is not the sole purview of FSUW.  Without context, the Taraban paper becomes substantially less valuable. 

Do I think there are liars?  Yes.  Do I think they exist with AW, AM and FSUW?  Yes to all three.  Do I think that people try to attract mates?  Yes.  This may seem like common sense to you and me but for feminist this is a very serious issue.  Specifically, it points to the issue of 'objectification of the female form'.  Which I think is great, natural and unavoidable but for feminist is a patriarchal construct meant to control women by degrading their persons. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 02:47:11 PM by Turkey »

Offline macman

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 11:31:58 AM »
Quote
Has anyone done an analysis on the differences between AW and FSUW  from dating sites?

HEY FOLKS,

Back from a sorely needed crash and burn on the beach! 

I must answer this question primarily from the AW profile perspective.  Every single AW that I've met from the internet lied in some form or fashion within her profile.  Be it age or weight or very old pictures - it was always something.  I feel this might be universal for "many" women, this was not the case in my only FSUW experience.

I don't really delve into the local dating sites these days, however, I do remember these LONG wish lists of traits the AW had, almost unrealistic for any human to fit in.  The RW appear to have a more realistic list IMO.

c ya
mm


 


Offline jen

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 05:02:05 AM »

I was saying that the use of the name was alluding to Jen's main assertion in her previous work where she puts forward the arguement that international marriages through agencies are predicated on false assumptions.  It is here that I described the difference as the 'lie'.  There is according to her, an incongruity between what is the true feelings by RW and what they post.  This deception is not true love just as true love can not be created by a potion.  It is interesting that the analogy has the elements of 'false love with the potential for real love', international aspects with the two main protagonists being from different nations, the female leaving her homeland for purposes other than love for Tristan.

I repeat though that this was only a suspicion on my part of who Tristan actually is and do not mean to defame Jen or the 'real' Tristan.

I follow through in the next two paragraphs to address Jen's specific thesis and my inability to find a copy of Ms. Taraban's paper.  Ms. Taraban is the individual who did a study that asserted that Ukranian women deliberate use terms to attract men.  Without having read that paper, I expressed some of my doubts. I'm fairly certain that there are serious problems with her analysis if it is performed with the same sloppiness as many of the papers i've read recently. 

In addition, I pointed to American dating sites and put forward the notion that dressing up your profile to attract mates is not the sole purview of FSUW.  Without context, the Taraban paper becomes substantially less valuable. 

Do I think there are liars?  Yes.  Do I think they exist with AW, AM and FSUW?  Yes to all three.  Do I think that people try to attract mates?  Yes.  This may seem like common sense to you and me but for feminist this is a very serious issue.  Specifically, it points to the issue of 'objectification of the female form'.  Which I think is great, natural and unavoidable but for feminist is a patriarchal construct meant to control women by degrading their persons. 

Hi Turkey,
I don't know if you want my two cents here, but I did not actually argue that women post things other than the truth. I would agree with the idea that everyone (A or R, M or W) in constructing such profiles is trying to put his/her best face forward. I think what you said about this makes a lot of sense. Taraban was arguing that women present a particular kind of image in their profiles which might be what men what to hear, or what they think men want to hear. I do not think that she was going so far as claiming that anyone is lying; she is not so black and white as that. She is only pointing out that the image of RW that you would get from reading profiles is less complex than the reality of who these women are. She is basing this on an analysis of the profiles and of the general experience/history of FSUW. She is not analyzing anyone's particular case, so she does not know whether nor claim that anyone is "lying."  I am actually less interested than she in picking apart the "images" thare are created in the online profiles; I quoted her simply in making the point that the *critics* of international dating point to men's desires for "traditional" women and tend to represent this in a pretty simple way (so that the term carries a lot of baggage, suggesting submissiveness, desperation, etc. on the part of women). I am trying to criticize those critics in that paper, by showing how the men I met on the romance tour in Russia had desires and views that are a great deal subtler and more "mainstream," if you will, than what they are usually credited with.

If you want to check out Tristan's creds, you can look at the Online Dating Rights board.

Thanks, jen

Offline Turkey

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2007, 04:36:59 AM »
Jen, your comments are always welcome.  I've been trying to egg you on for a while now, HELLO??? :P

I understand your points.  It's a little hard to discuss her paper without a copy :( 

I can't speak to the 'why' men as individuals go abroad and whether or not they are looking for love or a domestic servant.  I'd like to think the best but I am aware that there are a number of less than honorable people in this endeavor. 

I don't know how you're planning on doing your paper but as others have mentioned, this site doesn't necessarily reflect the population as a whole. 

Good luck in your research!



Offline jen

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2007, 01:30:36 PM »
Jen, your comments are always welcome.  I've been trying to egg you on for a while now, HELLO??? :P


Sorry I was slow. I didn't see the thread right away, and then I thought the Tristan/Jen thing was so funny, I had no idea how to respond :)

Let me see if I can finagle you a copy of that article...I should be able to get it scanned when I am back at my office next week, and then I could attach it or send it to you. Hmm, I'm not sure whether there are any copyright regulations that say I should not upload it here... Anyway, I could get you a copy one way or another. I would be interested to hear your comments. Her focus and conclusions are not the same ones I would make, but it is worth reading.

Re: representativeness, I'd also be interested to hear your further thoughts about this here or on the other thread where that issue has been raised.

Thanks, have a good weekend, J.

Offline catzenmouse

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2007, 01:33:49 PM »
Jen,

 If there are no legal issues that would cause a problem I think it would be a good idea to attach it to a post so anyone who would like to could all have a look at it.

Ken
"Marriage is that relation between man and woman in which the independence is equal, the dependence mutual, and the obligation reciprocal."
-- Louis K. Anspacher

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2007, 02:12:43 PM »
this site doesn't necessarily reflect the population as a whole.
I do not believe your statement is entirely correct Turkey.

While the membership and those that post to this forum may not be representative of the population as a whole I do believe a case could be made that those here are a good representation of those who have and are seeking a bride from the FSU. This is a very diverse group

TigerPaws

Offline macman

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2007, 02:43:39 PM »
Quote
this site doesn't necessarily reflect the population as a whole

I disagree as well. . . I think the dichotomy of the RWD populate, as diverse as it is, is about what you'd find throughout the WM ISO FSUW demographic within the U.S. - in other words, "THEY - WE" are all here.  Be it sex tourism - which BTW, does titilate some areas of my brain; to the researcher playing a game with numbers, statistics and the analysis therof - which BTW, does stimulate other areas of my brain. . .


I know the expat's get sick of our endless analysis of minutia; however, I still wish to present you guys with the big question(s). . .


PokA,
mm



Offline macman

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2007, 02:51:43 PM »
YO Turk. . . I forgot to mention. When I first pulled up the article:

Feminism
after C.G. Jung, F.A. Hayek, Ayn Rand, Warren Farrell, Camille Paglia, & Christina Hoff Sommers

I didn't have my glasses!  Darnit. . . The first 3 words appeared as "The Hand Jobs".  I thought, TURK - whatup?

Then I got my glasses.

I will read this when I'm stuck behind a screen!

Thanks for the post - Turk starts it every time.


c ya
mm

Offline BC

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2007, 12:13:37 AM »
As far as I know, feminism, in principle was all about choice and gender equality.

-this led us into an era of two income, two car middle-class families..  Just think what this did for the economy.. almost doubled the workforce resulting in a huge boom for gdp.  It also created demand for products and services that make our lives easier (diswasher, microwave, take-out, pizza delivery, drive-thru, etc).

As with many things though, there were some negative side effects..

Many women may have felt pressured to work in order to maintain living standards with the 'Jones'.
Parenting abilities and 'Quality time' suffered.
Increased stresses in daily life.

As it relates to RW, I think we see many men that have reached stages in their life where a stay-home wife is possible if the women so desire. 

Regarding the RWD 'slice of pie', members as a whole (2200 or so in number) is probably a pretty good cross section representing the overall picture.  Those few that post (around 10%, regularly post 5%) is what RWD actually represents.

I would like to believe that around 5 to 10% of men interested in a relationship with FSU women take this venture seriously, and have the basic economic and social ability to do so with some chance of success.  The remaining 90+% range from fantasy chasing keyboard Romeo's to those that actually do visit FSU just 'for fun and games'.


Offline BradSTL

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2007, 05:54:35 AM »
Turkey and jen---  you both seem to sense, if not reflect, what seems to be a growing division that is developing in feminism, especially those who debate regularly among the circles of the American political left/liberals.

It seems the great standard-bearers of feminism of the 1970's and 80's in America are now constantly qualifying, or revising their thoughts.   Chalk all this up to the stunning economic progress in the U-S since 1984.   The U-S workforce has changed so much.

It seems so many arguments seem to revolve around personal liberty issues now, rather than collective/group issues of years ago.   One reason I believe a schism is developing among liberals over "feminism" and exactly what it means in 2007.

I hear so many * libertarian * viewpoints surfacing in the debate, IMHO.

I wanted to add this note:   There is one country where the changes in roles among the genders seems to be occurring in  dramatic terms---- *** IRELAND ***.  Over the last 25 years, Ireland has to be one of the most successful, dramatic economic reversal stories in the last century, a true "economic miracle" story.  It might be useful to seek out social research on Ireland.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 06:07:13 AM by BradSTL »

Offline Turkey

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2007, 07:01:52 AM »
I view sampling issues as one of the more serious issues with papers that analyze surveys.  In order for the survey to represent the overall population some care must be made.

There are several problems that I think need to be addressed:

1.  People on forums, by virtue of being on forums reflect personality characteristics that may not reflect the overall population.

2.  Group think will cause those who actually post to be represented in disproportionate numbers.  Those who agree will not necessarily reflect the overall population.

3.  Any given forum will have its own culture.  This will draw certain 'types' of people who share that forum's 'values' and 'culture'.  Each forum may have very different values and as such the use of one forum may not reflect the overall population

4.  Partly related to group think, individuals who have successfully navigated this process do not necessarily reflect the overall population who initially investigate this endeavor.  There may be a significant difference in attitudes between those who 'have been there, done that' and those who start out.  One of the main purposes of the online community is to impart information.  It is assumed that those who start out have less information and thus their views may be different.

In addition, those who succeed may have characteristics that are different than the general population and is reflected by their success.  By this, I mean that the 'marriage' is evidence of certain personal characteristics (such as commitment, goal oriented, financial independence, patience, etc.)  that may not be represented by the general population. 

5.  On RWD in particular, there are generally between 10-25 users, and 50-100 guests (my best guess).  It is unknown how many of the users have multiple ids, how many of the users are not WM (many may be FSUW).  The lack of reliable numbers in this area (not just site specific but also total number of men, number of marriages, divorces, how long they stay married, what percentage go overseas, etc), makes the determination of whether or not a sample reflects the overall population, very difficult.

6.  It is unlikely from my perspective that a meta analysis will be helpful, even if there were more studies available.  If the survey and interview approach is used by most researchers, then I think that a meta analysis would only reflect the sampling errors compounded by observational bias (caused by the observers being disproportionately feminists).

7.  It is unknown to me what percentage of total men meet their wives through tours, through agencies, randomly when they are on vacation/work, etc.  The mix in any given forum may or may not reflect the proportions one woudl find in the general population.

8.  Comparisons with men in the host countries may not be helpful. The values and characteristics for men who are able and willing to participate may be significantly different then the male population of their countries.  Given the lack of social acceptance of this method of pair bonding, men who seek wives in other countries may exhibit non-conformist tendencies.

9.  Those who self select to answer survey questions may not reflect the general population.  Those with negative or potentially embarrassing admissions may not participate resulting in a skewed result.

 
It is possible that RWD does reflect the overall population and in the same proportions.  At this time though, I think that would be pure speculation and in my admittedly limited observations, incorrect.






Offline jen

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2007, 07:24:08 AM »
I view sampling issues as one of the more serious issues with papers that analyze surveys.  In order for the survey to represent the overall population some care must be made.
...
It is possible that RWD does reflect the overall population and in the same proportions.  At this time though, I think that would be pure speculation and in my admittedly limited observations, incorrect.

Hi Turkey,

Thanks for the observations (and everyone else's who disagreed).  These are very useful thoughts for me to hear. In cultural anthropology (my field), the tradition is to focus on qualitative as opposed to quantitative approaches: i.e., getting to know a small group of people (community, tribe, what have you) in depth as opposed to asking 5,000 people a set of yes or no questions that can be quantitatively analyzed to say something about a large population. Both approaches have their pluses and minuses and their uses. Given my approach, I will not be able to make claims about representativeness, as though my sample says anything conclusive about a larger population. However, I hopefully can add a more informed perspective to the debate (i.e., represent something of the "insider's" view that the policy world is less able to less interested to do). Also, I can be specific about describing what is special about the particular community I am observing, in order to place it in proper perspective. So everyone's comments in helping me think about these issues are helpful.

More next week, enjoy the weekend everyone,
J.

Offline jen

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2007, 12:20:31 PM »
p.s. I didn't forget about the copy of the Taraban article. I have one copy but now I find that it is all marked up, not very scannable. I will see what I can do. In the meantime, here again is the citation for the book it is in, which you can find on amazon or elsewhere.

Living Gender after Communism
Edited by Janet Elise Johnson and Jean C. Robinson
Indiana University Press 2007

thanks, j.

Offline Turkey

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Re: A couple of questions
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2007, 04:18:18 PM »
Thank you for the suggestion. I'll pick it up but right now i'm reading "Who Stole Feminism" :) She's really something else; I think i'm in love LOL!

 

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Yesterday at 06:28:48 PM

American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by 2tallbill
Yesterday at 04:48:07 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Yesterday at 04:37:18 PM

If you don't know what you are talking about, post away anyway by 2tallbill
Yesterday at 04:17:08 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
Yesterday at 02:48:08 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Yesterday at 01:09:03 PM

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