LOT refuses boarding!!!!!

[Faux Pas]

Presumption of abandonment of permanent residence status if out of the US for six months or more. Rebuttable presumption, if less than one year, but airline doesn't care. LOT can refuse carriage on the basis of insufficient travel documents.

Muck

The airline only cares for proper documentation. According to the OP, she has it. If she has what he described I can vouch for it being proper because my wife traveled to Russia and back with the same documentation with an expired 2 year temporary card. She experienced no problems. The documentation was complete and authentic. That green card extending expiration document is real and valid.

That said, if LOT refused her boarding with her sufficient documentation, they owe her a complete refund. Again, somebody is lying,....... somewhere

[Muckraker]

No documentation - again, status abandoned.  Possession of green card alone not conclusive evidence of status.  Must also follow rules to maintain status.  Do not stay out of the country for more than six months if you don't want the government to presume that your status is abandoned.

Nobody is lying...the government just has rules about people who don't appear to be living in the US while seeking to maintain permanent residence status here.  Those rules have put her status into question and the airline is acting accordingly. Other airlines are not as risk averse.

Yes, been around a while but rarely post - not much to say typically.  Do read often though.

Muck

[Faux Pas]

No documentation - again, status abandoned.  Possession of green card alone not conclusive evidence of status.  Must also follow rules to maintain status.  Do not stay out of the country for more than six months if you don't want the government to presume that your status is abandoned.

Nobody is lying...the government just has rules about people who don't appear to be living in the US while seeking to maintain permanent residence status here.  Those rules have put her status into question and the airline is acting accordingly. Other airlines are not as risk averse.

Yes, been around a while but rarely post - not much to say typically.  Do read often though.

Muck

With that documentation she is still in status. It is not for the airline to assume what her intentions or her status may or may not be. She has/had the required documentation. The last thing this world needs is airline employees play acting as Immigration officers

[BC]

Don't know if mentioned, but try booking on a direct, non stop flight to anywhere in the US.  By doing so there is a homeland security check (yes US officials) that have a little computer terminal to scan the passport and status is checked and hopefully the little green light blinks.  They will likely be more familiar with the documents and rules.  Either use airline miles or opt for a refundable fare in case things don't work out.  At least that way you'll most likely get the 'straight answer' from the homeland security rep.

If that works, you might be able to use it as evidence in a claim against LOT.

[BillyB]

LOT told them since they were out for more than 6 months, they could not be admitted.
 
THIS IS WRONG!  Since they were out for more than 6 months, it could effect the residence time for becoming a Citizen, but not what LOT said.
 

Being out more than 6 months a person on an expired permanent expired green card can't be admitted back into America but according to the site below, that doesn't apply to expired conditional green card holders which your wife and daughter are. I don't know if they meant that to mean the conditions for expired conditional green card holders are looser or stricter than the expired permanent kind. The last sentence said " CR-card holders must contact the nearest U.S. Consulate with a DHS-office prior to making travel arrangements to the United States." Did your wife do that?


http://www.saculbreathlaw.com/blog/?p=499


All travel companies are responsible for making sure documentation is correct before sending people to other countries otherwise they may be responsible for bringing those people home on their dime when they are refused by a country's passport control.


Wayne, even if you're 100% right with providing the necessary documents your family needs to re enter America, you need to realize that you're dealing with people and companies outside of America that aren't always right and may not understand all our laws. You should have never sent your family outside of America with expired conditional green cards. Now it's going to cost you time, separation from family, and money. I suggest you have your wife visit the nearest American consulate with a DHS office so they could provide her and your daughter with the necessary documents to get back home.

[Wayne]

Thanks for the information Billy, but the way I read it they don't say anything about the I 797 letter from USCIS extending the conditional green card for one year. But it could be confusing to someone because it does mention that a 10 year green card holder with an expired green card can enter the country if they have not been gone for 6 months. Perhaps that is why LOT brought up this SIX MONTS arguement.
 
Of course, wife and daughter did not have expired green cards when they left USA.

[Muckraker]

See (INA § 101(a)(13)(C)(ii))

(C) An alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States shall not be regarded as seeking an admission into the United States for purposes of the immigration laws unless the alien-   

(i) has abandoned or relinquished that status,   

(ii) has been absent from the United States for a continuous period in excess of 180 days,   

(iii) has engaged in illegal activity after having departed the United States,   

(iv) has departed from the United States while under legal process seeking removal of the alien from the United States, including removal proceedings under this Act and extradition proceedings,   

(v) has committed an offense identified in section 212(a)(2), unless since such offense the alien has been granted relief under section 212(h) or 240A(a), or   

(vi) is attempting to enter at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers or has not been admitted to the United States after inspection and authorization by an immigration officer.

[Faux Pas]

See (INA § 101(a)(13)(C)(ii))

(C) An alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States shall not be regarded as seeking an admission into the United States for purposes of the immigration laws unless the alien-   

(i) has abandoned or relinquished that status,   

(ii) has been absent from the United States for a continuous period in excess of 180 days,   

(iii) has engaged in illegal activity after having departed the United States,   

(iv) has departed from the United States while under legal process seeking removal of the alien from the United States, including removal proceedings under this Act and extradition proceedings,   

(v) has committed an offense identified in section 212(a)(2), unless since such offense the alien has been granted relief under section 212(h) or 240A(a), or   

(vi) is attempting to enter at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers or has not been admitted to the United States after inspection and authorization by an immigration officer.

I stand corrected. 

Good Luck with that one Wayne

[Wayne]

OK, so this law does not say anything about being out of the country for 6 months. So as long as they can return before 180 days, they should be admitted.

[southernX]

All travel companies are responsible for making sure documentation is correct before sending people to other countries otherwise they may be responsible for bringing those people home on their dime when they are refused by a country's passport control.

this above isnt correct from my  personal excperience ,

having arrived by air france into a country without the correct documents , i was detained and held , then after 12 hours returned to my departure point in paris ,
air france told me it would be at their expense,
having obtained the required docs, i re booked a flight out of paris to my destination to continue my trip ,


i double checked with airfrance all further bookings where covered and good , i was assured of this ,after 3 weeks away on my trip just  24 hours before leaving to fly back to paris i checked again with them , all ok
, however  when i arrived  to the air france desk to check in on a return flight back to paris , i found my ticket was cancelled and forfeted, by air france , i paid again & rebooked

on returning to  home and through the booking agent i  tried to recover costs, even with travel insurance i was denied any return on costs

so dont count on the airline  actually returning you for free at '' their '' cost , it may vary with each one

SX

[Wayne]

I think what it means is that LOT is a crappy airlines!

What experiences do other people have with LOT?
 
 

[Faux Pas]

I think what it means is that LOT is a crappy airlines!

What experiences do other people have with LOT?

AFAIK, LOT has never enjoyed a good reputation from a customer service standpoint but, it is your (the passenger's) responsibility to know about their own documents. That onus is on you, not LOT. It is you that should have done that research before your wife left if you knew she was going to be gone for 9 months. For future reference Wayne, you do this before the fact, not after.

[pokerintherear]

I think what it means is that LOT is a crappy airlines!

What experiences do other people have with LOT?

I have used LOT 5 times and never had a complaint except for a delay out of Chicago because of our always traveling President Obama. It just so happened on a Friday afternoon he decided to make a trip to Chicago. We sat and waited on the tarmac until he was on the ground and gone. This was not LOT's fault but did mess up connections.

For what its worth if you have a convenient way to Chicago (ORD) LOT has a daily flight to Warsaw their hub. I would recommend it. It leaves around 5 PM daily. Warsaw has connections to Minsk, St Petersburg, Moscow, Kiev, Lvov and others. The layover averages about 1.5 hours for most connections. Warsaw airport is new and very easy to navigate. Its not a huge terminal. I have never seen big crowds. You can make a connection in 30 minutes easily after stepping off the plane. Most flight times 12-14 hours total including lay over time in Warsaw. Puts you in Kiev, Lvov around 12:00-13:00 their time (next day).

The flights to and from Chicago-Warsaw always seem to be full. Take this into consideration if you use this route. Another consideration is,  you are flying in and out of their hub. It makes things easier if problems occur.

[tfcrew]

I think what it means is that LOT is a crappy airlines!
What experiences do other people have with LOT?

Lot isn't any crappier than any others.

[Jumper]

Wayne -

Muckracker has a background that makes him extremely valuable to this forum, and to questions you have posted.

Read carefully his responses as he gave you both the reason this occurred, and a way that might get past it.
(try another airline)

I never took a LOT flight between Kiev and Warsaw, so I don't know.
We all know that airlines over book flights. They sell more tickets than they have seats, sometimes. With all the trouble in Ukraine, they probably have more people wanting to get out than they would normally have at this time of year. That might include Ukrainians just wanting to get to Poland. So it could all come down to they just needed to bump someone.

They could have been overbooked as well.
I think if that was the case you wife would understand it completely,
and relay that to you.
You do often seem to have questions that should have solid answers,
like the plane crash incident.
Did you ever determine what she meant? and what actually happened in that case?

At any rate, the LOT attendants and staff in Borispol do know English.
(as well as Russian and Ukrainian)

I will say ,while very convenient since i'm in Chicago area,
 it is not my favorite airline!
and i'm sorry your family  ran into these troubles.

[Jumper]

Yes, been around a while but rarely post - not much to say typically.  Do read often though.

Muck

Its good to see you posting, and glad you are still actively reading Muck!!
and hope all is well ! 


AJ

[PBRstreetg]

Lot isn't any crappier than any others.

+1, horosho
Copy that. I flew on Transearo for the 2013-2014 holidays. A friend didn't really care for them, but samey same I'm a newbie MIA-VKO. The bus sucks regardless, I think it's par for the course.

The LOT air waitresses were a bit cuter, just a newbie observation. New York area to Poland is direct, I like it a bit eastward: aka to Russia, and beyond!

[Muckraker]

What LOT did was a blessing. Now you can prepare them for inspection by Immigration. If they are lucky, not too many questions. But, things like "I was building a house and working" would have sunk them. Bring evidence that shows they had an intent to remain permanent residents, notwithstanding their long absence.  The burden of proof is on you, so be prepared. You can't just redo the visa process if the daughter has aged out now.

Just a thought - there is a new U.S. Immigration pre-clearance facility at Abu Dhabi.

Muck

[Wayne]

My Wife had a stroke and is in the hospital in Simferopol.

[Chicagoguy]

Ye Gods. This is terrible. Hope best for both her and you.

[Wayne]

Today, I received an answer to the email that I sent to the US Embassy in Kyiv. It confirms that LOT Airlines were wrong to deny boarding. My Wife is still in the hospital. She cannot use her right hand. She is not responding to therapy.

It is not possible to get a flight out of Simferopol Airport now. I don't know if the train to Kiev is working, but if it is, tickets would be difficult to obtain.

Here is what the embassy says: Thank you for your inquiry.
We are sorry to hear your family faces problems leaving for the U.S.
 
Provided that your wife presented the original I-797 form extending her status for one year and allowing her to travel during that period of time, and in case she was outside of the U.S. for less than 365 days, LOT had no reason to deny boarding.  If she meets all of the above, she can travel back to the U.S. without any additional documents before her 365 day period outside of the U.S. expires. 
You can provide LOT with the Carrier Information Guide issued by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection at http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/carrier_info_guide.pdf, page 10. 
 
At this point the Embassy cannot comment on what is going to happen if the geopolitical status of Crimea changes.
If you have not done it yet, please enroll with the Embassy to receive our warden messages by email by registering online at http://step.state.gov
 
We hope the above is of help.
 
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
 
American Citizen Services | Consular Section
U.S. Embassy | 4 Igor Sikorsky St., Kyiv 04112, Ukraine
Tel (380-44) 521 – 5566 | Fax (380-44) 521 – 5544
Documentary Requirements For  Entry To The United States B.  U.S. RESIDENTS – must provide one of the following: Expired Conditional Resident Card Form I-551 accompanied by Form I-797 Notice of Action indicating the card is extended.
[/font][/size]
 

[Noch1]

LOT sucks, I only flew once with them, it was enough, Kiev to warsaw, late, running to make flight, never left international zone, the did a 3/4 strip search of me in the line while pointing a machine gun at me. Once I got through that, they screwed up the boarding, and then took 2 hours to de-ice,
there was no snow when I got on plane. This made me late for flight in Toronto.
The gave me a room, and a meal ticket for 15 dollars, ( in Toronto  )
thats what you can buy for 15 buck in TO airport LOL
On the brighter side, I always wondered how the oxygen mask thingy worked, I got to find out
it fell out on take off, the could not put it away, so I had it in my face for the trip LOL
Was amusing, because there was no TV on a 8 hour flight, not a discount flight by the way.
Even Condor now has TV's and they are discount.

Get your money back and book with a real airline.

[Wayne]

Yes, I would like to get my money back and use another airline.
 
The problem right now is getting out of Crimea.
 
My wife's health is the most importing thing!

[Gylden]

Wayne,
With the circumstances you are telling about, why are you not on a plane to go get her/help her?

[GQBlues]

Yes, I would like to get my money back and use another airline.
 
The problem right now is getting out of Crimea.
 
My wife's health is the most importing thing!

Then all the more reason you need to jet out there ASAP and get to the bottom of this. If nothing else, be at her 'bedside' as stroke is a very serious condition.

Wayne- either you have some pretty wacky cloud hovering over you, or your wifey is one silly prankster or a huge fan of the Twilight Zone. Considering the mysterious 'flight accident' she had not too long ago, not being allowed on board for a flight back to you, Crimea being under siege, and the brand new house almost done....your marriage had been fairly, well, shall I say, adventurous.

Wouldn't you say?