DOUBLE DEALERS

[Eduard]

I think its a pretty safe bet she is a hooker when she asks for $200 for a good time.

that's a fair assessment!

[WmGO]

did you notice that I put a question mark at the end of my sentence. It was a question. I really don't know how you can tell if you are not a native russian speaker.
Women typically can act and are not thaT easy to figure out unless you know what to look for and obviously speak the same language and come from the same culture so that you could distinguish little nuances and suttleties in what and HOW they say things, body language, slang, eye expressions, overall aura...
I think that if you are an American who's lived his life and has seen things you would be able to tell a good down to earth Midwestern girl from a Miami call girl, don't you think?

I noticed that you are dodging the question. 

Why ask the question and raise the issue if you are not
going to elaborate and edify?

Please state exactly what kind of "little nuances,
subtleties, body language, slang, eye expressions, overall aura" etc.
you are referring to:

1. list of little nuances are:
2. body language is:
3. eye expressions are:
4. subtleties are:
5. overall aura is:
6. examples of slang are:

Capiche`?

[SANDRO43]

Just a curiosity not germane to the current discussion: I discovered today on Anti-Scam Org that one of my most active DDs, hooker-wise, was also reported as a scammer. The interesting part, however, is that the photos she (them) use belong to Lithuanian model Jurgita Valts (www.jurgitavalt.com, www.phun.org/galleries/jurgita_valts/jurgita_valts.htm), representing the 3rd such case of hookers 'borrowing' photos of other luscious girls.

Is there some FSUW Consumers' Association where one could lodge a complaint for these misrepresentations ?

[Eduard]

I noticed that you are dodging the question. 

Why ask the question and raise the issue if you are not
going to elaborate and edify?

Please state exactly what kind of "little nuances,
subtleties, body language, slang, eye expressions, overall aura" etc.
you are referring to:

1. list of little nuances are:
2. body language is:
3. eye expressions are:
4. subtleties are:
5. overall aura is:
6. examples of slang are:

Capiche`?

Generally I will ask a question so that someone will give me an answer. Why are you answering a question with a bunch of questions?
And if you seriously don't know the answers to your 6 questions, boy you are in serious poopoo

[SANDRO43]

to parla englies, si?

What's that, Esperanto ?

[WmGO]

Generally I will ask a question so that someone will give me an answer. Why are you answering a question with a bunch of questions?
And if you seriously don't know the answers to your 6 questions, boy you are in serious poopoo

Geeesh! You continue to exhibit some Russian traits that I always found
distasteful - instead of answering a question you try to turn the subject around
onto the person asking the question.

FYI, I agree that some things are a matter of common sense, but the question
was not asked for my personal benefit but for the benefit of EVERY WM who reads
or who may EVER read this thread!

You are the one holding yourself out as an expert for WM seeking FSUW. You then
pop off about being able to spot prostitutes and "skanks" where WM would not
be able to,and then, when asked to elaborate on something that would be serious
and important to any and all WM, you just make smart remarks???

Is that how you respond to your customers who ask such a serious question?

Methinks you may have just
flung some lochaddermo
and can't back it up.

[Misha]

Not long ago I became embroiled in a debate with Jack and Leslie about this, both of whom seem to have some experience with consorting with low women.  They claimed that prostitution is rampant in the FSU, while I have never encountered it.

Gator, you must live a sheltered life. I have stayed in hotels across Russia for business, and one of the most annoying features are the constant calls from the "dyevushki" offering you their services. And these were not bad hotels: they were relatively decent hotels in large and medium-sized cities. It is pretty hard to ignore when you are trying to sleep floored by jet lag and get woken up by yet another call offering you companionship that you do not want.

[Shadow]

Gator, you must live a sheltered life. I have stayed in hotels across Russia for business, and one of the most annoying features are the constant calls from the "dyevushki" offering you their services. And these were not bad hotels: they were relatively decent hotels in large and medium-sized cities. It is pretty hard to ignore when you are trying to sleep floored by jet lag and get woken up by yet another call offering you companionship that you do not want.

Gabaub, although I did not receive any calls I have also spotted 'single women' hanging around in the bar and restaurant of hotels looking for business. They are actually quite easy to spot for anyone who has ever encountered 'professionals'.

[Gator]

Gaubaub wrote,

Gator, you must live a sheltered life.

You are not alone in your opinion.  Jack questioned me, and Leslie even started a NHB thread "Phil the Fraud" about my statement.  Yet I repeat again that I have not encountered working girls.

The point of my post is that I do not know how to spot a hooker.  Instead, I presented my criteria for selecting women to meet, and my criteria and approach indirectly seems to have excluded "double dealers" and retired hookers.

You mentioned hotels.  All my stays at Russian hotels, with two exceptions, have been shared with a RW date traveling with me.  The exception - Baltschug Kempinski, a premier hotel.  I have seen unattached women at hotels, yet I did not approach them.  A young pretty woman smiled at me once while we were working out at a hotel’s sport club.  Maybe they all were hookers, a small-minded thing to say.

Finally, keep in mind that I am old man.  While my banjo still has many tunes left in it, perhaps I would sing a different tune if I were much younger.

[Kuna]

Geeesh! You continue to exhibit some Russian traits that I always found
distasteful - instead of answering a question you try to turn the subject around
onto the person asking the question.

FYI, I agree that some things are a matter of common sense, but the question
was not asked for my personal benefit but for the benefit of EVERY WM who reads
or who may EVER read this thread!

You are the one holding yourself out as an expert for WM seeking FSUW. You then
pop off about being able to spot prostitutes and "skanks" where WM would not
be able to,and then, when asked to elaborate on something that would be serious
and important to any and all WM, you just make smart remarks???

Is that how you respond to your customers who ask such a serious question?

Methinks you may have just
flung some lochaddermo
and can't back it up.

I share your frustration...  some people's participation in RWD is purely focused on marketing and prospecting for new business.  Others are here to share and/or learn.

I noticed you asking an honest question - and your inability to even get an answer.

When I think of the others here that are "in the business" none are so crude as to market in the same way.  Jack is highly respected and I'm sure is referred a lot of business.  Richard from Tver (if anything) was oblivious most of the time to opportunities even when they did present themselves. Even Igor wasn't so obtuse in his self promotion.

This guy's pitch is the same 'ol same 'ol I got on my trip and it frustrated the hell out of me.  What is frustrating is that it obviously works on some but it assumes everyone will suck up the BS when and as it's presented.

"I'm an expert, you need me".

"Even if your girl speaks English you will not understand her and she won't understand you - without me".

"Russia/Ukraine is a dangerous place, you need me to protect you from all the bad things that happen"

"If you want a perfect wife you need me.  It's guaranteed, all my clients are successful."

"Listen to me - No good girls would ever list themselves in agencies."

"My way is the only way - any other way is fraught with danger and failure. Do you want me to save you from failure?"


Anyone would realise such a pitch is all about "me", not the client.

I'm sure these services are really needed by some types of men - I just wish it/they were more client centric and less self-serving.

Oh, Wmgo... you're right... whenever it is challenged the response is exactly the same.  I'd suggest anyone that uses such a service not ever question the advice, demands and directions of the "expert".  Once you engage a service provider yo're simply expected to follow directions, fork out the cash and play you're part.

You're hooked for the duration.

Sad really, because they COULD add such value if they only understood the meaning of "quality". 

[Eduard]

Geeesh! You continue to exhibit some Russian traits that I always found
distasteful - instead of answering a question you try to turn the subject around
onto the person asking the question.

FYI, I agree that some things are a matter of common sense, but the question
was not asked for my personal benefit but for the benefit of EVERY WM who reads
or who may EVER read this thread!

You are the one holding yourself out as an expert for WM seeking FSUW. You then
pop off about being able to spot prostitutes and "skanks" where WM would not
be able to,and then, when asked to elaborate on something that would be serious
and important to any and all WM, you just make smart remarks???

Is that how you respond to your customers who ask such a serious question?

Methinks you may have just
flung some lochaddermo
and can't back it up.

Don't you understand that it's very difficult if not impossible to explain these?
1. list of little nuances are:
2. body language is:
3. eye expressions are:
4. subtleties are:
5. overall aura is:
6. examples of slang are:
people in every culture have their specific way of expressing themselves. How can I explain for example #3 eye expressions???
"when she says "this" her eyes roll up and to the right at a 33 degree angle, she blinks 2.5 times, stares at the ceiling for 14 seconds, blinks again and..." This is just a silly question IMO.
You being raised in the US should be able to recognise if an American person is being deceptive or straight out lieing to you, or if a person is not being sincere, bored, non-interested. Every culture has it's own little subtleties that are impossible to explain. When you grow up in that culture you will notice them and will be able to interpret those things. How can I give you examples of Russian  slang? Just like here in the US, most people use slang in Russia as well. I've met only a few people in my life who speak the way Tolstoy or Pushkin wrote their books. When I hear certain slang being used certain way they say things, intonations, pauses, etc. it tells me things about a person and I can make certain deductions about them. It's not something that can be taught. You need to grow up in a culture to learn all those subtleties. I've lived here in the US for almost 30 years and I'm still discovering new slang, expressions and figure of speech for me.
If you meet an AW and talk to her, wouldn't you be able to tell if she is flirting with you or if she is just being friendly? Her level of education? If she was brought up in a respectable home by good parents or by a couple of dope heads? If she is a college professor or a street walker? I think that most men who have had reasonable life experience and AW experience will be able to figure out all things that I mentioned. Why? because you speak the same language, grew up in the same culture and you happen to pay attention to a person you are communicating with. I don't know how to explain this any better. I thought that this was obvious to everybody and that your question was just a way of giving me a hard time. If you honestly didn't understand what I just tyred to explain, I apologise and I hope that now you do understand. I will also say again, that I HONESTLY have no clue how you can read a person from another culture the way another person from the same culture will be able to read them.
Seems like Kuna managed to solve this problem somehow (or maybe he just believes that he did, I don't know) maybe you could ask him to explain to you how he learned to do that?

PS by the way if you use this "lochaddermo" with any Russian person, they will think that you are either a mental case or an idiot. FYI American expressions don't translate to Russian word for word and if you atempt to do that with anyone in Russia you will only be putting your foot in your mouth every time.

[Eduard]

I share your frustration...  some people's participation in RWD is purely focused on marketing and prospecting for new business.  Others are here to share and/or learn.

I am here to share knowledge and teach if someone wants to be taught. Somehow people prefer to contact me privately through email and ask for my opinion on different issues like scam, RWs, help them figure out if a woman seems sincere, and other issues...and I do help these people - I share and I teach. You seem to know it all and all your questions were always asked with one purpose - to try to discredit me. Luckily many people disagree with your opinion. This is just the first couple of paragraphs of the letter I received from a RWD member who is now my client. maybe once you read it, you and others like you, will understand that by your "know it all, bully style" confrontational posts you are discouraging some very intelligent and good people from participating in this forum.

[Gator]

Eduard wrote,

I am here to share knowledge and teach if someone wants to be taught.

Most of your knowledge seems to boil down to the Kuna mimicry, i. e. "you can't do this without me." 

We have an expression, "Those that can, do; those that can't, teach."  It needs to be expanded because you can not even teach if your response to WmGo's question about spotting a Double Dealer is typical.

To be candid, I would not expect you or anyone to be able to distinguish quickly such women based on telephone calls.  That should be your goal - eliminate such women before a client wastes his precious time meeting them. 

IMO if a man is concerned about this, he should study the photos in Sandro's catalog, learn the style of photos made of such women, and avoid that style like a pox. 

[Jet]

Don't you understand that it's very difficult if not impossible to explain these?

people in every culture have their specific way of expressing themselves. How can I explain for example #3 eye expressions???
"when she says "this" her eyes roll up and to the right at a 33 degree angle, she blinks 2.5 times, stares at the ceiling for 14 seconds, blinks again and..."
Every culture has it's own little subtleties that are impossible to explain. When you grow up in that culture you will notice them and will be able to interpret those things. How can I give you examples of Russian  slang? Just like here in the US, most people use slang in Russia as well. I've met only a few people in my life who speak the way Tolstoy or Pushkin wrote their books. When I hear certain slang being used certain way they say things, intonations, pauses, etc. it tells me things about a person and I can make certain deductions about them. It's not something that can be taught. You need to grow up in a culture to learn all those subtleties.
I will also say again, that I HONESTLY have no clue how you can read a person from another culture the way another person from the same culture will be able to read them.

Eduard,
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt (and being married already, I have no dog in this hunt) it would appear that you have the misconception that this adventure is supposed to be a sprint to the alter. When I first met my wife, could I be certain within the first 5 minutes whether she was a good girl or a bad girl? NOPE! But because I had written, chatted, and spoken on the phone with her, and I'd assessed what information she chose to reveal vs what she chose to withold, and because of her demeanor during that initial 5 minutes, I could be reasonably confident I wasn't being played like a fiddle  . By the time my second visit with her was halfway over, I could say I was "sure" and 5 years later I know that assessment was correct. One thing I can also say is that we wouldn't be together today if I had dragged "my buddy Eduard" along on the first date - she damn sure wouldn't have gone for that 


My point was that it wasn't important for me to get married immediately, it was important to let a relationship develop in the most normal way possible.

[Eduard]

We have an expression, "Those that can, do; those that can't, teach." 
To be candid, I would not expect you or anyone to be able to distinguish quickly such women based on telephone calls.  That should be your goal - eliminate such women before a client wastes his precious time meeting them. 

IMO if a man is concerned about this, he should study the photos in Sandro's catalog, learn the style of photos made of such women, and avoid that style like a pox. 

gator,
"Those that can, do; those that can't, teach."  that's a great expression and well - I did do it! I found and married and brought to the US a great girl with wonderful family values who is a great, loving wife to me and an awesome mother to our daughter.

and I think your suggestion is great! that's exactly what I do though - eliminate questionable women right at the beginning by reviewing their profile carefully and spotting any red flags at the very beginning of their correspondence, saving him a lot of time and unnecessary emotional disstress. If a client wants me to go with him to Russia and help with interpretation among other things, I will go and advice him on my personal observations. They seem to find that part valueable.

[Kuna]

Seems like Kuna managed to solve this problem somehow (or maybe he just believes that he did, I don't know) maybe you could ask him to explain to you how he learned to do that?

Eduard,

You're method and process are of little value to any man with half a clue because you would just get in the way of him being a success. 

You might add value to someone who can't walk and chew gum at the same time - but realistically this journey is not rocket science.

Maybe those that are so inept as to need your services shouldn't travel in the beginning because it would appear they need someone to hand hold them throughout marriage... are you just setting them up for divorce because you're not always around to make them successful?  Maybe you offer marriage counselling after marriage because you're the only one that understands and can help? 

Is it better they just fail before the K-1 or marriage??? I dunno... maybe you're just setting them up as unsuspecting mules!

I honestly believe most men that fail have failed before they eave home. What I did, and what MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE is no more remarkable than what you did.

Yes, it's true... you're not remarkable and nor am I! 

In my opinion you're offensive because you say stuff like, "Seems like Kuna managed to solve this problem somehow (or maybe he just believes that he did, I don't know) maybe you could ask him to explain to you how he learned to do that?"

See, you want newbies to think this pursuit is dangerous and neigh impossible.. that's when and why they will need you.  When I, Maxxum, I/O and MANy others provide examples of good basic relationship building you have the audacity to question their relationships... Why??? Because that is how you make money!

It's one of the reasons I wouldn't trust you and I would caution anyone who does trust you.  I would go as far as to say someone trusting you (including the letter writer from you're other thread - AND his friend) have questionable judgement to start with.

If that man is so capable and successful why would he need you???  Does he believe you're pitch and if so why does he feel so incapable of doing what so many others do alone?

It doesn't make sense does it?

BTW... I know who he is an I'm not surprised he would send such a letter of support... It just doesn't add any credibility to you or your service!

Your "Russian-ness" could be argued as a disadvantage if one wanted to do that...  after all we hear what most russian men are like... are you one who isn't to be trusted... a scammer?  Liar???  Abusive??? A bad example of manhood when compared to American men.  They are other lies we hear from service provides to extract $'s from men who know no better.

RWD is weaker for your involvement because there have been men here with genuine knowledge and experience way before you came in here trying to make a few grubby $'s.

If you could add some value wuld would have by now.  All you do is indulge in false advertising...  That is not admirable!

Sorry if my opinion offends you but I would caution anyone believe you're BS to parallel your story with all other service providers in the market, to ask questions of men without a vested interest and then make their own decisions.

If they feel so incapable of undertaking this journey they are probably better off sticking to AW or Romanian women from NY...

[Kuna]

BTW, this is now another thread spoiled through Eduards shameless self promotion and BS.

May I suggest the mods split it off again so Sandro's excellent thread that has been running for many months doesn't just become another Eduard sh!tefight!

[SANDRO43]

May I suggest the mods split it off again so Sandro's excellent thread that has been running for many months doesn't just become another Eduard sh!tefight!

Yes, please stop polluting my thread with these non-porn discussions .

[WmGO]

Don't you understand that it's very difficult if not impossible to explain these?


difficult but not impossible to provide at least *some* factual elaboration

people in every culture have their specific way of expressing themselves.


no kidding - that is why you were asked for specifics


You being raised in the US should be able to recognise if an American person is being deceptive or straight out lieing to you, or if a person is not being sincere, bored, non-interested.

agree - this falls under the province of the "common sense" I was referring to in my prior post

Every culture has it's own little subtleties that are impossible to explain.

disagree with your use of the word "impossible"


If you meet an AW and talk to her, wouldn't you be able to tell if she is flirting with you or if she is just being friendly? Her level of education? If she was brought up in a respectable home by good parents or by a couple of dope heads? If she is a college professor or a street walker? I think that most men who have had reasonable life experience and AW experience will be able to figure out all things that I mentioned.

agree, and again a matter of common sense


PS by the way if you use this "lochaddermo" with any Russian person, they will think that you are either a mental case or an idiot. FYI American expressions don't translate to Russian word for word and if you atempt to do that with anyone in Russia you will only be putting your foot in your mouth every time.

I never use profanity overseas or locally with foreignors. Don't hardly use it at all anywhere with anyone. Admittedly, due to my hatred of fraud, lies and deception, I occassionally use the bull*** and horse**** phrases, and when I do it is 99% of the time just to myself when noone is around, but I am presently backslid a little bit with my tounge and have used those phrases a few times lately on this forum. I will try to tighten up. 

[WmGO]

that's exactly what I do though - eliminate questionable women right at the beginning by reviewing their profile carefully and spotting any red flags at the very beginning of their correspondence, saving him a lot of time and unnecessary emotional disstress.

Now this is an opportunity for you to provide a lot of valuable info for WM.
Please make  a list of the things you consider to be "red flags" about an FSUW.
Also the things you advise a client are "red flags" during a WM's meeting(s) with
an FSUW.

Thanks.

[Eduard]

Sandro, here you go, take it back to the porn discussion. I'm done here, it is useless and a waste of time to argue with  4 or 5 people here, and I'm just going to ignore them from now on. I think it's a shame though that Dan felt that he needed to remove the RWD's member's letter to me from my post (that I used with the member's permission). I feel (and I'm not alone) that many RWD members don't actively participate in this forum because they don't want to get into pointless arguments with very few and very prolific and agressive members. Out of aproximately 3,000 members how many actually do post?
I've got no stats, but it seems to me like a VERY law percentege...something to think about..
and WmGO you seem to accuse me of things with absolutely no way to back it up <<<Admittedly, due to my hatred of fraud, lies and deception, I occassionally use the bull*** and horse**** phrases>>>>, so I'm not going to respond to you any more.

[Admin]

Sandro, here you go, take it back to the porn discussion. I'm done here, it is useless and a waste of time to argue with  4 or 5 people here, and I'm just going to ignore them from now on. I think it's a shame though that Dan felt that he needed to remove the RWD's member's letter to me from my post (that I used with the member's permission). I feel (and I'm not alone) that many RWD members don't actively participate in this forum because they don't want to get into pointless arguments with very few and very prolific and agressive members. Out of aproximately 3,000 members how many actually do post?
I've got no stats, but it seems to me like a VERY law percentege...something to think about..
and WmGO you seem to accuse me of things with absolutely no way to back it up <<<Admittedly, due to my hatred of fraud, lies and deception, I occassionally use the bull*** and horse**** phrases>>>>, so I'm not going to respond to you any more.

Eduard,

For the record, I did not remove anything from your posts - one of the Moderators did so as you will see if you look in the edit record. Not that it matters, as I support the Mods in their actions, and have stated that actions they take should be considered as if it were me - so to that extent, you are correct. I did need to go back to the post in question to find what it was I am accused of - and now I see it.

Insofar as your other complaints - RWD is, by a great distance, the most active and vibrant RW-related discussion forum on the internet. We increase our lead position each and every week, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That is, of course, why purveyors of services and products seek to participate here - so they, like you, can hawk their wares. We have some provision for that - as a service to the members. In your case, I feel safe in saying that most feel you have overstepped the bounds - and I will be posting a poll soon to deal with exactly this situation and what steps the members feel need to be taken in such instances.

Now - this topic is NOT about you, and I would appreciate your allowing it to return to the original topic. In fact, further disruption will elicit further intervention.

- Dan

[Eduard]

Eduard,

For the record, I did not remove anything from your posts - one of the Moderators did so as you will see if you look in the edit record. Not that it matters, as I support the Mods in their actions, and have stated that actions they take should be considered as if it were me - so to that extent, you are correct. I did need to go back to the post in question to find what it was I am accused of - and now I see it.

Insofar as your other complaints - RWD is, by a great distance, the most active and vibrant RW-related discussion forum on the internet. We increase our lead position each and every week, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That is, of course, why purveyors of services and products seek to participate here - so they, like you, can hawk their wares. We have some provision for that - as a service to the members. In your case, I feel safe in saying that most feel you have overstepped the bounds - and I will be posting a poll soon to deal with exactly this situation and what steps the members feel need to be taken in such instances.

Now - this topic is NOT about you, and I would appreciate your allowing it to return to the original topic. In fact, further disruption will elicit further intervention.

- Dan

Dan,
my mistake. I didn't realise that another mod altered my post. I also wanted to post my last and final response on my original thread, but someone locked it while I was typing. When I saw that it was locked I started a new thread and posted it there. I thought that after all the arguments and accusations presented in the last day or so it would be fair to allow me to respond, wouldn't you agree? It is my thread after all

[Admin]

Dan,
my mistake. I didn't realise that another mod altered my post. I also wanted to post my last and final response on my original thread, but someone locked it while I was typing. When I saw that it was locked I started a new thread and posted it there. I thought that after all the arguments and accusations presented in the last day or so it would be fair to allow me to respond, wouldn't you agree? It is my thread after all

THIS topic (thread) is NOT your topic Ed. Leave it alone, or you will force my hand.

As for the other topic - yes, it was started by you - to promote your business. It went for 30 pages - and I referenced you to the policy which clearly demonstrates that purveyors of products/services are NOT to take advantage of this site in that manner.

I am considering your request from your PM and will reply when I have time.

- Dan

[WmGO]

and WmGO you seem to accuse me of things with absolutely no way to back it up

Sorry dude, but you misinterpreted my comment. I was actually, somewhat
apologetically, saying that I probably *misused* the horse**** phrase in my
previous post to you. I was not accusing you of anything. I was just
explaining my occassional use - and misuse, of the phrase.

So please don't take your toys and go home. THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO REDEEM YOURSELF IN THEY EYES of many people here - just give us a list
of red flags for WM to beware of.

Thank you.