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Author Topic: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?  (Read 451005 times)

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Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1900 on: August 22, 2014, 11:10:53 AM »


The West surely saw it as a high probability outcome because everyone knows Putin will not accept defeat.   However, what is the West to do?  Deployment of NATO forces to Ukraine is unacceptable to the West.   It suggests there will be more sanctions against Russia, further isolating Russia. 



Did you read the essay I posted yesterday by this scholar in Russian studies? I highly recommend it.


In 5-10 years time, Ukraine will be like Georgia, perhaps even advertising on American TV "Travel to Ukraine."  What we don't know is whether Donetsk and Lugansk will be part of Ukraine.  If they become independent, they will have the same underachieving fate as Northern Cyprus experienced in comparison with Cyprus.   They will be another odd child of an isolated Russia.   


Nothing like that is going to happen. Have faith.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1901 on: August 22, 2014, 11:12:30 AM »

Careful...what you are saying here sounds a little like a WIN...that might make some people's undershorts get knotted up!


Fathertime!   


One liners inferring nonsense? LMFAO


Ever heard "Do as I say, not as I do?" Like your shoe size is....
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1902 on: August 22, 2014, 11:17:16 AM »




History books are full of pages of bloodshed because situations like this. What's that Shadow calls it? Ah yes, civil war. So guess, who didn't understand? It's funny because now she is the one who has no "peaceful" sentiments right now. It is very difficult to explain to her why, for example, the US is NOT going to send troops nor the EU. All I know is that she hates the Nigr right now for being such a pansy.


 


Even if you disagree, is there any important reason you have to continue to call the president such a racist name?  You continue to exemplify what it is to have little respect (for yourself) first.  Your 'analysis' seems to pass through the lens of racism, which makes it rather invalid on most topics. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1903 on: August 22, 2014, 11:17:36 AM »

I totally disagree. Honest change was not going to happen because the country was not in charge of itself. It had to detach itself from the cancer that was preventing honest change and that takes blood. You should know that by know. How ironic that Putin provided the venue for Ukraine to detach itself.


I told my wife about 14 years ago something like this was bound to happen. She kept saying that they were peaceful people and that I didn't understand.


History books are full of pages of bloodshed because situations like this. What's that Shadow calls it? Ah yes, civil war. So guess, who didn't understand? It's funny because now she is the one who has no "peaceful" sentiments right now. It is very difficult to explain to her why, for example, the US is NOT going to send troops nor the EU. All I know is that she hates the Nigr right now for being such a pansy.


Oh, one more thing. Don't expect utopia once they finalize becoming a "nation" as it was meant to be. There is the process of weeding out the vermin from their holes and that will take time. Think about it, almost 50 years after "the shot heard around the world" was fired and the US was still battling their "brothers."

I disagree.

Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.

The very fact Kiev had the masses believe Yanu ordered the sniper attack is a testament not much had changed in Ukraine, and no, Russia has nothing to do with that type of mentality.

The very fact Kiev was the one who bombed innocent folks in Luhansk's State Administration building (and instead attempted to blame it on the rebels knowing full well they did it), and Ukrainians didn't even bat an eye with that deception, tells me not much had change in Ukraine.

OSCE reported yesterday that notable folks are being detained and held captive by the irregular army. After being released, monitors who try to interview those folks wouldn't reveal anything in their experiences and instead decides to leave either the city or the country altogether instead, tells me nothing has change in Ukraine. No, Russia has nothing to do with that.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:22:34 AM by GQBlues »
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1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1904 on: August 22, 2014, 11:24:15 AM »
I disagree.

Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.

The very fact Kiev had the masses believe Yanu ordered the sniper attack is a testament not much had changed in Ukraine, and no, Russia has nothing to do with that type of mentality.

The very fact Kiev was the one who bombed innocent folks in Luhansk's State Administration building (and instead attempted to blame it on the rebels knowing full well they did it), and Ukrainians didn't even bat an eye with that deception, tells me not much had change in Ukraine.

OSCE reported yesterday that notable folks are being detained and held captive by the irregular army. After being released, monitors who try to interview those folks wouldn't reveal anything in their experiences and instead decides to leave either the city or the country altogether instead, tells me nothing has change in Ukraine. No, Russia has nothing to do with that.


Yo Cool Dude.


Respect your opinion even when I disagree with you 95%.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1905 on: August 22, 2014, 11:25:10 AM »

One liners inferring nonsense? LMFAO


Ever heard "Do as I say, not as I do?" Like your shoe size is....


I sometimes mirror responses to the individual posters...in your case 'inferring nonsense' is a perfect reflection. 
Fathertime! 
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Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1906 on: August 22, 2014, 11:29:00 AM »

Did you read the essay I posted yesterday by this scholar in Russian studies? I highly recommend it.

I read the article by Judy Dempsey titled "Russia is Losing Germany."  Good article, the substance of which was the letter sent by three German ministers to the parliament.  My thoughts are consistent with her thesis, namely Putin is shooting himself Russia in the foot.



Quote
Nothing like that is going to happen. Have faith.

Ukraine can not stop Russia if Putin is prepared to go "all in."  Only a megalomaniac would go "all in" and suffer the economic harm of having limited access to international market.  So you are suggesting that Putin will be reasonable?  I hope you are correct. 

Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1907 on: August 22, 2014, 11:34:44 AM »


Change happens from within, not from outside. Ukraine will be greatly amiss to believe their woes are directly created by Russia.


I agree with that.  Ukraine's biggest problem IMO has been the corruption, something Ukrainians fostered and something that only Ukainians can correct.   

Nevertheless, Russia has a heavy hand in destabilizing Ukraine when a stable Ukraine is needed to make the changes.

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1908 on: August 22, 2014, 11:35:31 AM »
I read the article by Judy Dempsey titled "Russia is Losing Germany."  Good article, the substance of which was the letter sent by three German ministers to the parliament.  My thoughts are consistent with her thesis, namely Putin is shooting himself Russia in the foot.




No, this one.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1909 on: August 22, 2014, 11:42:09 AM »

Yo Cool Dude.


Respect your opinion even when I disagree with you 95%.

Oh good! I'm cool with that, too...

For a minute I thought you were going to tell me I was wrong.  :P ;)
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1910 on: August 22, 2014, 11:42:28 AM »

Ukraine can not stop Russia if Putin is prepared to go "all in."  Only a megalomaniac would go "all in" and suffer the economic harm of having limited access to international market.  So you are suggesting that Putin will be reasonable?  I hope you are correct.


Didn't they say the same about the Vietnamese and the Afghans?


It is going to cost Russia so much they may end up losing half their territory.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline missAmeno

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1911 on: August 22, 2014, 11:44:04 AM »

Ukraine's military consist of the country's force AND *armed groups and irregular army*. While the military is faced having to 'draft' soldiers, many of which doesn't really want to go, the armed groups and irregular army have no problem finding *volunteers*. Notice anything wrong with this? Volunteers is the kosher word for *mercenaries*, and by whom?

How did you came to such conclusion? As I know for sure your conclusions are incorrect.

My brother received 'recall', ended up in 72nd brigade. Later family discovered that whole 72nd brigade was formed out from volunteers. When questioned on subject my brother laughs and denies he volunteered but family is now has no doubts he put his name on the list by himself and within few days received 'recall'.
72nd brigade is not unique, there many many brigades that partially or completely made out of volunteers.

You are correct that there are some that have been called for and do not wish to go, no one forced them (at least I haven't seen yet in news or heard from family/friends about any cases where actions were taken against those who refused to go)

As about opposition armed groups, initially they had many Ukrainians (some paid and some volunteers). With time many realized those armed groups are nothing more than bunch of bandits and these days those groups mainly consist those who paid for participation, russian volunteers and russian military.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:47:39 AM by missAmeno »

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1912 on: August 22, 2014, 11:48:56 AM »
MissA-

First off, I'm glad your brother is alive and hope he'll recover soon...

Kolomoisky had amassed bought at least a 20,000 army of *volunteers*. I'm am not incorrect on this. If Kiev's new government want to start anew and promote transparency and order, how can they allow this?

I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.

Quote
...The head of the police in Starobilsk (100 km north of Luhansk) informed the SMM of new abduction cases linked to the “Aidar” battalion. The interlocutor explained that the main problem facing police officers during investigations into these abductions, is that the victims mostly do not wish to press charges against the perpetrators, or give any information regarding the location of their detention. Instead of involving the police, victims chose to leave the village or even the country.

The SMM met IDPs fleeing Luhansk at the Shchastya checkpoint (25 km to the north). Most of those interviewed by the SMM were not able to confirm the presence of Ukrainian forces in the centre of Luhansk city, as reported by some media sources on 19 August. One interlocutor told the SMM that different irregular armed groups are fighting for control of the city.


In Donetsk the SMM recorded frequent explosions consistent with shelling on various parts of the city’s outskirts. For the past two days the city has been without water supply, reportedly due to mortar attacks. Electrical pumps for the water mains are located in the city’s outskirts, at the heart of the fighting, thus making repairs difficult.


In Dnipropetrovsk the SMM met with representatives of the NGO “Helsinki Human Rights Union”, partly funded by the Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights. Most of the cases the NGO is dealing with are related to the situation in the east, in particular concerning military officers investigated for their decisions on the battlefield, the rights of the dead, and the status of families of the fallen. The interlocutors informed the SMM of a case regarding an army commander who is detained and being prosecuted for his decisions on the battlefield. The absence of a definition related to the current military situation in the criminal code and the fact that martial law has not yet been declared, according to the NGO representatives, complicates judicial proceedings, as there are no clear legal indications on which law should be applied concerning conduct on the battlefield....


http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122908
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:55:29 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1913 on: August 22, 2014, 12:02:56 PM »


I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.

 


As far as we know that hasn't happened yet.  But what do we really know? For example, we never knew about the failed attempt to rescue James Foley who was just beheaded.  This was an operation that required around 50-100 American troops and happened a couple years ago.  The White House is angry that information was leaked out now.  The point being, we (the American people) don't know much about what the hell our armed forces are out there doing.  Clearly if Americans have been, or are involved in Ukraine, we would be the last ones to find out. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1914 on: August 22, 2014, 12:15:36 PM »
Pertaining to the conflict in Ukraine?

I already know there're Americans involved in this conflict. For one, there was that interview with an American, who eventually died, that fought in this conflict. I also know we have, at least that had been reported, military advisers in the field.

Actual governmental combatants, at this time, who knows? But I won't be surprised if that is the case.

What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK. LOL.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline missAmeno

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1915 on: August 22, 2014, 02:02:23 PM »
MissA-

First off, I'm glad your brother is alive and hope he'll recover soon...

Thank you

Kolomoisky had amassed bought at least a 20,000 army of *volunteers*. I'm am not incorrect on this. If Kiev's new government want to start anew and promote transparency and order, how can they allow this?

I can't even imagine any western democratic country today would allow a band of hired mercenaries, foreign and domestic, hired by a private citizen, to run around its borders killing its citizens with the approval of its government.


Can you please provide any evidence, proof, links, anything whatsoever to:
  • Kolomoisky's army being at least 20, 000
  • Structure of Kolomoisky's army
  • Purpose of Kolomoisky's army
  • Funding of Kolomoisky's army
  • Actions of Kolomoisky's army
  • Connection of Kolomoisky's army and 'running around borders killing citizens with the approval of its government.'

I will answer to each point you provide at least any kind of supporting evidence. General statement you made earlier in exact form as you made is nothing else than fairytale for net experts.

As for quote from OSCE let me know exactly which phrase/paragraph/sentence you believe have anything to do with exchange we had because right now I am under impression you are seeing something in that report that is not there.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1916 on: August 22, 2014, 03:25:19 PM »
...Can you please provide any evidence, proof, links, anything whatsoever to:
  • Kolomoisky's army being at least 20, 000
  • Structure of Kolomoisky's army
  • Purpose of Kolomoisky's army
  • Funding of Kolomoisky's army
  • Actions of Kolomoisky's army
  • Connection of Kolomoisky's army and 'running around borders killing citizens with the approval of its government.'
I will answer to each point you provide at least any kind of supporting evidence. General statement you made earlier in exact form as you made is nothing else than fairytale for net experts....

http://forward.com/articles/198812/jewish-oligarch-spends-millions-on-militia-to-hold/

Quote
...Igor Bereza, a commander in Kolomoisky’s National Defense Force, said the force now has nearly 15,000 people, including some 2,000 combat-ready troops organized in four battalions.

http://carolinaundersiege.wordpress.com/tag/ihor-kolomoisky/

Quote
...Kolomoisky’s forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779

Quote
...They are members of the Azov Battalion, one of several units of volunteers fighting alongside Ukraine’s military and national guard against separatist rebels – allegedly backed by Moscow – who want the country’s eastern regions to join Russia ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky

Quote
...In a rare interview, Mr. Kolomoisky declined to say how much he is spending personally to build up what his aides call the "Kolomoisky army," but experts estimate it is about $10 million a month just to fund the salaries of militia and police units, some of whom technically report to Ukraine's army and interior ministry. His province now has close to 2,000 battle-ready troops in the field, his aides say. By comparison, Ukraine's army had only 6,000 through the entire country when Russia took control of the Crimean peninsula earlier this year....

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665

He even boldly offers *bounties* for every captured rebels, their weapons, etc...

Quote
....Igor Kolomoisky, an energy tycoon who was appointed governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region in eastern Ukraine last month, also offered rewards for handing in weapons belonging to insurgents: $1,000 for each machine gun turned in to the authorities, $1,500 for every heavy machine gun and $2,000 for a grenade launcher....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky

If you have the time (I don't) , in OSCE's Daily report (link previously provided) had already confirmed the presence of these *irregular armies/armed groups* fighting alongside Ukraine's military in more than multiple mention.

So, again, if the NEW Kiev government is starting anew and is trying to promote transparency and order, why would it allow paid foreign/domestic mercenaries to kill Ukrainians?


Quote
...As for quote from OSCE let me know exactly which phrase/paragraph/sentence you believe have anything to do with exchange we had because right now I am under impression you are seeing something in that report that is not there.

All of it. See above re: OSCE...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 03:47:30 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1917 on: August 22, 2014, 04:09:03 PM »
Pertaining to the conflict in Ukraine?

I already know there're Americans involved in this conflict. For one, there was that interview with an American, who eventually died, that fought in this conflict. I also know we have, at least that had been reported, military advisers in the field.

Actual governmental combatants, at this time, who knows? But I won't be surprised if that is the case.

What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK. LOL.


Easy man. The American was from Ukrainian descent and he got Ukrainian citizenship before he went to fight.


Also, I'd like you to provide evidence of NATO involvement in this.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1918 on: August 22, 2014, 04:33:40 PM »
Oh BTW, Cool Dude.


Check this one out.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1919 on: August 22, 2014, 04:46:24 PM »
Easy man. The American was from Ukrainian descent and he got Ukrainian citizenship before he went to fight...

But that doesn't negate the fact he is/was American. I also posted a retired US military Special-Ops training soldiers in Ukraine on this board before.

http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/


Quote
...Also, I'd like you to provide evidence of NATO involvement in this.

I didn't say NATO IS involved in this. I said:

>>What is also absurd in these things, much had been made about Russia amassing troops in its borders, but yet, there had been an increased deployment of both troops, weaponry and equipment all throughout the NATO bordering countries at the same time and somehow that's OK.<<

NATO had been increasing it's troop deployment in bordering NATO countries in the region since April. It had already dispatched nuclear B2 stealth bomber to the UK and Germany a little over a month ago *because of* this conflict. But yeppers, within that context - NATO or the US have NO business doing what they're doing in that region. So to say Russia is amassing troops in its borders is being highly hypocritical.

An additional 12 F-16 fighters likely already arrived in Turkey this week. So much for de-escalation.

These reports are easily searchable. Like this, for instance...

http://theaviationist.com/2014/06/08/b-2-have-deployed-uk/

This ain't our fcoking war.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1920 on: August 22, 2014, 04:51:53 PM »

This ain't our fcoking war.


That's a negatory.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1921 on: August 22, 2014, 04:52:52 PM »
Oh BTW, Cool Dude.

Check this one out.

Check what out? 286 freaking trucks that had been sitting at the border for days for humanitarian purposes?

LMAO! It doesn't take THAT long to inspect 286 trucks, man. WTF! ICRC had been there and they couldn't find anything other than food, water and medicine. Why delay the deliveries?

Dude, Costco's main warehouse in Mira Loma, CA dispatches upwards of 800 fully loaded delivery semis is less than 6 hours. Long Beach offshore inspectors, on one port, can check over 1,000 containers in less than one day.

Now, if Kiev believes this somehow benefits the separatists, too...so big freaking deal! They're getting supplied, albeit many of them are being sold in the internet by some good folks in Ukraine, with the same by the US. LOL.
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Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1922 on: August 22, 2014, 05:27:35 PM »
There were pics of the loads.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline missAmeno

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1923 on: August 22, 2014, 08:00:10 PM »
http://forward.com/articles/198812/jewish-oligarch-spends-millions-on-militia-to-hold/

Quote
...Igor Bereza, a commander in Kolomoisky’s National Defense Force, said the force now has nearly 15,000 people, including some 2,000 combat-ready troops organized in four battalions.

First thing, not Igor Bereza but Yuri Bereza
He is commander of Battalion "Dnepr-1" and as well Chief of Headquarters of the national defense of Dnipropetrovsk region.

In March after the beginning of the Crimean crisis was re-established National Guard of Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine
National Guard was created partially on the basis of the Internal Troops of Ukraine and consisted militia as well as armed wings, volunteers are also have been accepted (and that is how my brother ended up in it) and heavily  reliant on reserve units.

Due to events on the territory of the neighboring Donetsk and Luhansk, in April in Dnipropetrovsk have been formed National Defense of Dnipropetrovsk region. They are not some kind of irregular forces, such units created in most regions of Ukraine and similar in the way 72nd brigade was created in my hometown which my brother joined, all these units are part of National Guard and reserve units.

15,000 man aged between 19 and 50 came and voluntarily placed their name on Dnipropetrovsk reserve list and ready if called for to go defend their country. What is bad in that, GQB? They are simple citizens: husbands, brothers and sons, they are ready to fight for their country and all what it shows not how bad is Kolomoisky but that Ukrainians have no desire to be once again under Russian dictator.
Actually list already closer to 27,000, around 15,000 was in May.

Now 2,000 mentioned as combat-ready troops is now closer to 3,000 and those are 4 battalions: two battalions of special forces "Dnipro-1" and "Dnipro-2", and two battalions of territorial defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnipro_Battalion

All those 4 battalions are part of National Guard of Ukraine. The difference is Kolomoisky donates a lot of money to fed, dress and equip Dnipropetrovsk's battalions.

Do not get it wrong, Kolomoisky is far from angel, his donations are driven not just by poor patriotism but also by his business. Russia  takes over Dnipropetrovsk he will loose way more than what he donates to Ukrainian army.
Ukrainians know that.

http://carolinaundersiege.wordpress.com/tag/ihor-kolomoisky/

Quote
...Kolomoisky’s forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force....

Why do you even read such gibberish?  Kolomoisky’s forces is nickname, all those battalions are units of the National Guard, operated by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.
Yes, some individuals in those battalions are very much questionable and hold (in my opinion) way too extreme believes (but so are many members of this forum also :devil: in my opinion).
Could you provide any evidence that Dnipro-1 'was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9.'?


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/foreigners-join-far-right-militias-in-ukraine-s-fight-against-rebels-1.1868779

Quote
...They are members of the Azov Battalion, one of several units of volunteers fighting alongside Ukraine’s military and national guard against separatist rebels – allegedly backed by Moscow – who want the country’s eastern regions to join Russia ...

Purpose of The National Guard is maintaining public order, upholding the constitutional order and restoring the activity of state bodies, upholding Part 1 of Art. 109 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine as well as  counterinsurgency.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky

Quote
...In a rare interview, Mr. Kolomoisky declined to say how much he is spending personally to build up what his aides call the "Kolomoisky army," but experts estimate it is about $10 million a month just to fund the salaries of militia and police units, some of whom technically report to Ukraine's army and interior ministry. His province now has close to 2,000 battle-ready troops in the field, his aides say. By comparison, Ukraine's army had only 6,000 through the entire country when Russia took control of the Crimean peninsula earlier this year....

I completely agree with Kolomoisky in calling Putin "a schizophrenic, short in stature". Actually assessment is very much spot on.
I can not understand what is wrong with donations someone does to support own country's army when sovereignty of that country is in danger. So he is rich and chooses to spent "several million dollars" on buying car batteries for military vehicles, clothing, food,  it is donation after all. He is aware country doesn't have the money required to equip army, he is aware of state of Ukrainian army and it is not something any another Ukrainian is not aware of. He can help and chooses to help, is that really bad? Would other countries when their sovereignty is under threat refuse donations from its population to support army protecting their own country?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665

He even boldly offers *bounties* for every captured rebels, their weapons, etc...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukrainian-oligarch-offers-financial-rewards-russians-igor-kolomoisky


What is wrong with offering bounty for handing in to authorities weapons belonging to insurgents? not to him but to appropriate authorities! What is wrong with offering reward for capturing those who trying to seize government  buildings? What western countries do not offer rewards for helping to capture criminals?
Are you aware that most of those who have been seizing building and standing up on pro-russians demonstrations have been paid for? Blatantly open and without any shame using economic desperation of population. All what Kolomoisky did is offered way bigger money for the capture of any Russian saboteur than what Russian saboteurs have been offering for seizing ukrainian government buildings. And you know what that was a turning point in seizing government buildings. He didn't offer money for Ukrainian saboteurs, he didn't offer money for Russian-heritage-but-Ukrainian-citizen saboteurs, he offered money for Russian tourist-insurgents. Those who had no right in saying what should be destiny of Ukraine but thought they could come and do whatever they wish on Ukrainian land.   

If you have the time (I don't) , in OSCE's Daily report (link previously provided) had already confirmed the presence of these *irregular armies/armed groups* fighting alongside Ukraine's military in more than multiple mention.

In the link you provided I do not see any confirmation by OSCE of presence of 'irregular armies'. If you can provide
exact quote I will answer.

So, again, if the NEW Kiev government is starting anew and is trying to promote transparency and order, why would it allow paid mercenaries to kill Ukrainians?


All of it. See above re: OSCE...

I am lost once again with such general statement. Who do you call 'paid mercenaries'?

lordtiberius

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #1924 on: August 22, 2014, 08:16:31 PM »
For a man who claims neutrality and indifference, he has an odd way of keeping score.

 

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