"Why don't you just date an American woman?"

[pitbull]

ML, what about (I am but an FSUW beginner, have yet to make a first trip)

--level of education
--level of seriousness about life in terms of having goals and wanting children
--ability to avoid being distracted by Dancing With The Stars and similar inanities

Whats wrong with Dancing With The Stars?????

[Gator]

All this continued BS about desiring FSUW because they have 'traditional values' that AW don't.

Only two clear differences between 'average' women in each group.

That is the  FSUW are more slender than the AW and the FSUW will 'accept' a larger age gap.

That's it folks.

All the rest is hooooooeeeeeeyyyyyy.

Sounds like you are into the physical.  I too appreciate that, yet there is more dependent upon the woman.  I have noted some key differences, many of which fall under the umbrella of traditional values.  For example, RW are imprinted by a society where the men have long had higher testosterone levels than the women,   

[ML]

ML, what about (I am but an FSUW beginner, have yet to make a first trip)

--level of education
--level of seriousness about life in terms of having goals and wanting children
--ability to avoid being distracted by Dancing With The Stars and similar inanities

No difference between average FSUW and AW regarding any of these three.

My current Gal loves DWTS.  She was very busy with ESL classes all year, but she always remembered exactly the two nights that DWTS was on and made sure she had time for them.  Of course there was always the added interest of Karina from Kharkiv and Maksim from Odesa (and this past session his brother also).

And, on my trips I had several segments of DWTS on my laptop and all the gals I dated liked watching it.

This idea that FSUW in general are smarter and have higher level of education compared to AW is also false.

The reason this got started and is perpetuated is that it might apply to the FSUW who get involved in seeking a man from the west.  You have to have a little more than average going for you in terms of smarts and willingness to try something new to think of uprooting yourself and going to a new land.  But these women do not represent the average FSU woman.

[ML]

Whats wrong with Dancing With The Stars?????

One very big thing.
They won't take me.

[ML]

Sounds like you are into the physical.  I too appreciate that, yet there is more dependent upon the woman.  I have noted some key differences, many of which fall under the umbrella of traditional values.  For example, RW are imprinted by a society where the men have long had higher testosterone levels than the women,   

For any example you could give of a value or trait that a FSUW you met had, I could give an example of a FSUW who did not have that trait or value.

[Slumba]

Whats wrong with Dancing With The Stars?????

I was only using it as an example of something on TV that has no educational content or other merit, it is purely passive entertainment..

[calmissile]

ML,

While I agree with your premise that two large differences between AW and FSUW are the two examples you stated, I believe that there are many more clear differences.  American culture has changed a lot over the past 40 years.  Every women wanting the white picket fence and a large family has changed from the time it was nearly universal.

Some of the differences I have noticed include:
1.  Many American women have now put their career in a higher priority than marriage and raising a family.
2.  FSUW are not only more slender, they also work hard to maintain their beauty for years to come and do their best to look nice whenever away from home.  This is not true of a large percentage of AW.
3.  FSUW dress much nicer than AW when in public.  Just go to Walmart or a mall to make a comparison.
4.  Having children out of wedlock has become so common in the US that we no longer can use the term 'illegitimate' referring to children out of wedlock.  While there are many FSUW that are divorced with children, my observation is that most of them were married when they had their children.  You might see this as a degradation of 'family values' in the US.
5.  The temperament of FSUW is very different from AW as evidenced by many of the posters both single and married as well as descriptions in various books.
6.  Of course there are huge cultural differences between FSUW and AW that are described in many books, posts, etc.
7.  The closeness of family and extended family is much more prevalent with FSUW.  Many of us in America have our families scattered across the whole USA, mainly due to employment opportunities.  In the FSU the bond is so tight that adult children often live with parents even after getting married.   These are certainly clear differences between FSUW and AW.  Not saying it is good or bad, just that there are a lot of clear differences that you overlooked.
8.  Another difference I suspect to be true, but cannot prove is the use of illegal/recreational drugs by FSUW vs AW.  My limited experience leads me to believe that most FSUW are not into casual use of recreational drugs.  On the other hand, the common use of drugs by both married and single AW (and men) in the US is far greater than most people believe.  This is particular true for AW that are single and not married raising a family.  On the US side, I know it from observation, the FSU side I am not certain but have not read a lot of posts about it nor witnessed it.

[timinua]

ML, what about (I am but an FSUW beginner, have yet to make a first trip)

--level of education
--level of seriousness about life in terms of having goals and wanting children
--ability to avoid being distracted by Dancing With The Stars and similar inanities

Education:

There is a near 100% literacy rate here (vs. about 80% in the US). Most people have a university degree. The problem is that the whole educational system here sucks, from endemic corruption to teaching styles and curricula that are completely incompetent. There are quite a few very smart people here, but they are smart DESPITE the educational system, not because of it.

The only thing a degree proves here absolutely is that the student didn't die between the ages of 17 and 22.

Seriousness:

Yes, most are very family oriented and serious about their obligations to the family (especially children) and are so at a much younger age than in the West.

Inanities:

If you are considering a girl in her 20s and think that the Eurovision Song Contest, Dancing With The Stars, X Factor, Ukraine's Got Talent, reality shows, posting internet memes, texting like a bandit, updating Vkontakte, playing Angry Birds or Fruit Ninja are all inane, then you have your work cut out for you.

And, generally, Ukrainian girls/women are far more materialistic than their Western counterparts...

[newjason]

Education:
...
And, generally, Ukrainian girls/women are far more materialistic than their Western counterparts...

I'll drink to that.   

[Ranetka]

Sounds like you are into the physical. 

Is that news for you?   

[ghost of moon goddess]

Education:

And, generally, Ukrainian girls/women are far more materialistic than their Western counterparts...

Timinua, do you mean you have explored the effect of nationality on women's level of materialism?! 

Could you please reveal your method of assessing UW's and their Western sisters' degree of being materialistic ?

[timinua]

Timinua, do you mean you have explored the effect of nationality on women's level of materialism?! 

Could you please reveal your method of assessing UW's and their Western sisters' degree of being materialistic ?

Are you going for sarcasm because my point is so ludicrous?

I have a PhD in English with a minor in cultural theory, so yes, as nerdy as it may be, analyzing culture is something that I do.

I lived in the UK for 17 years, France for a year, the US for 14 years, and I have been living in Ukraine for 8. I was a professor in the US, and I have taught at universities and at my own school in Ukraine. I would conservatively estimate having taught about a 1000 US and a 1000 Ukrainian female students. In every course that I teach, the topic of social class, socioeconomics, and materialism is discussed.

But maybe that sampling isn't wide enough to make a statement such as I did...

[Ranetka]

Are you going for sarcasm because my point is so ludicrous?

I have a PhD in English with a minor in cultural theory, so yes, as nerdy as it may be, analyzing culture is something that I do.

I lived in the UK for 17 years, France for a year, the US for 14 years, and I have been living in Ukraine for 8. I was a professor in the US, and I have taught at universities and at my own school in Ukraine. I would conservatively estimate having taught about a 1000 US and a 1000 Ukrainian female students. In every course that I teach, the topic of social class, socioeconomics, and materialism is discussed.

But maybe that sampling isn't wide enough to make a statement such as I did...

As long as you have made an adjustment based on the fact that expats (and MOB business) normally attract girls more materialistic than the average than your findings are valid.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Are you going for sarcasm because my point is so ludicrous?

Ludicrous? No! I find it too daring

But maybe that sampling isn't wide enough to make a statement such as I did...

That sampling is not enough to provide any statements to label  the UW . IMHO

[Boethius]

ML,

While I agree with your premise that two large differences between AW and FSUW are the two examples you stated, I believe that there are many more clear differences.  American culture has changed a lot over the past 40 years.  Every women wanting the white picket fence and a large family has changed from the time it was nearly universal.

Some of the differences I have noticed include:
1.  Many American women have now put their career in a higher priority than marriage and raising a family.

Most AW do not have "careers".  Most work in pink collar jobs.  They usually don't have a choice as to whether or not to work.  This is evident if you look at the decline of income since the 1970's.

2.  FSUW are not only more slender, they also work hard to maintain their beauty for years to come and do their best to look nice whenever away from home.  This is not true of a large percentage of AW.

True, they remain more slender with age.  But AW spend over a billion dollars annually on each of the diet and beauty industries.

3.  FSUW dress much nicer than AW when in public.  Just go to Walmart or a mall to make a comparison.

True, but so do FSUM.  My husband would never leave the house without polishing his shoes.  How many AM do the same?

4.  Having children out of wedlock has become so common in the US that we no longer can use the term 'illegitimate' referring to children out of wedlock.  While there are many FSUW that are divorced with children, my observation is that most of them were married when they had their children.  You might see this as a degradation of 'family values' in the US.

Is it somehow less of a degradation of "family values" to have children and then dump them, so a mother is raising them alone? 

5.  The temperament of FSUW is very different from AW as evidenced by many of the posters both single and married as well as descriptions in various books.

Temperaments vary.  People are people the world over.

7.  The closeness of family and extended family is much more prevalent with FSUW.  Many of us in America have our families scattered across the whole USA, mainly due to employment opportunities.  In the FSU the bond is so tight that adult children often live with parents even after getting married.   These are certainly clear differences between FSUW and AW.  Not saying it is good or bad, just that there are a lot of clear differences that you overlooked.

Adult children live with parents out of economic necessity, rather than a bond.

8.  Another difference I suspect to be true, but cannot prove is the use of illegal/recreational drugs by FSUW vs AW.  My limited experience leads me to believe that most FSUW are not into casual use of recreational drugs.  On the other hand, the common use of drugs by both married and single AW (and men) in the US is far greater than most people believe.  This is particular true for AW that are single and not married raising a family.  On the US side, I know it from observation, the FSU side I am not certain but have not read a lot of posts about it nor witnessed it.

I suspect this is generational. 

[alex330]

8.  Another difference I suspect to be true, but cannot prove is the use of illegal/recreational drugs by FSUW vs AW.  My limited experience leads me to believe that most FSUW are not into casual use of recreational drugs.  On the other hand, the common use of drugs by both married and single AW (and men) in the US is far greater than most people believe.  This is particular true for AW that are single and not married raising a family.  On the US side, I know it from observation, the FSU side I am not certain but have not read a lot of posts about it nor witnessed it.

The drug use definitely seems to be astronomically higher in the US. Not that there is not access to drugs in the FSU (there is a huge heroin problem there currently) but it seems they are not done recreationally as frequently. My wife did not believe the stories I told her about the women here. She wondered why I could not find a normal girl locally.
After her arrival and meeting some women her words were "What the farg is wrong with these girls?".

On the materialistic it does seem that RW do appreciate nicer things more than certain circles of AM. I think looking good and image is generally important to those from the FSU. From my personal experience you can find a woman who likes to look nice and can look like a million bucks without all the designer label price tags.

[timinua]

Ludicrous? No! I find it too daring

That sampling is not enough to provide any statements to label  the UW . IMHO

I'll get back to you once I've surveyed all 27 million Ukrainian females.

[ML]

That sampling is not enough to provide any statements to label  the UW . IMHO

Actually his sample is quite enough.

According to the central limit theorem,  the sampling distribution of a statistic (like a sample mean) will follow a normal distribution, as long as the sample size is sufficiently large.  Therefore, when we know the standard deviation of the population, we can compute a z-score, and use the normal distribution to evaluate probabilities with the sample mean.
But sample sizes are sometimes small, and often we do not know the standard deviation of the population. When either of these problems occur, statisticians rely on the distribution of the t statistic (also known as the t score), whose values are given by:

t = [ x - μ ] / [ s / sqrt( n ) ]

where x is the sample mean, μ is the population mean, s is the standard deviation of the sample, and n is the sample size.  The distribution of the t statistic is called the t distribution or the Student t distribution.
The t distribution allows us to conduct statistical analyses on certain data sets that are not appropriate for analysis, using the normal distribution.
The t distribution can be used with any statistic having a bell-shaped distribution (i.e., approximately normal).  The central limit theorem states that the sampling distribution of a statistic will be normal or nearly normal, if any of the following conditions apply.
 

• The population distribution is normal.
• The sampling distribution is symmetric, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is 15 or less.
• The sampling distribution is moderately skewed, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is between 16 and 40.
• The sample size is greater than 40, without outliers.

This principle can be found in any standard statistics textbook and is here taken from: 
http://stattrek.com/probability-distributions/t-distribution.aspx

[Ranetka]

....bla bla bla...math...

ML,


it's not a normal distribution.


The girls gravitating to expats/MOB are more materialistic than the average.

[ML]

 The central limit theorem states that the sampling distribution of a statistic will be normal or nearly normal, if any of the following conditions apply.
 

• The population distribution is normal.
• The sampling distribution is symmetric, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is 15 or less.
• The sampling distribution is moderately skewed, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is between 16 and 40.
• The sample size is greater than 40, without outliers.

[Ranetka]

The central limit theorem states that the sampling distribution of a statistic will be normal or nearly normal, if any of the following conditions apply.
 

• The population distribution is normal.
• The sampling distribution is symmetric, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is 15 or less.
• The sampling distribution is moderately skewed, unimodal, without outliers, and the sample size is between 16 and 40.
• The sample size is greater than 40, without outliers.

Hmmm . I need to look at it.


I say you can check French girls v Ukrainian girls because in both countries you would compare expats girlfriends to expats girlfriends. But to compare Ukrainian to Americans you will have expat girlfriends vs "normal population" (as you would have exposure to "normal population". )

[ghost of moon goddess]

I'll get back to you once I've surveyed all 27 million Ukrainian females.

Don't waste your time on 27 million materialistic Ukrainian females. Get back to your family, please 

Actually his sample is quite enough.

According to the central limit theorem,  the sampling distribution of a statistic (like a sample mean) will follow a normal distribution, as long as the sample size is sufficiently large.  Therefore,   .... states that the sampling distribution of a statistic will be normal or nearly normal, if any of the following conditions apply.
 ....

Does this make you laugh or cry???
 

[ML]

I say you can check French girls v Ukrainian girls because in both countries you would compare expats girlfriends to expats girlfriends. But to compare Ukrainian to Americans you will have expat girlfriends vs "normal population" (as you would have exposure to "normal population". )

But Tim said:  I would conservatively estimate having taught about a 1000 US and a 1000 Ukrainian female students.

He wasn't involved with MOB gals or those who had expat boyfriends.

[Ranetka]

But Tim said:  I would conservatively estimate having taught about a 1000 US and a 1000 Ukrainian female students.

He wasn't involved with MOB gals or those who had expat boyfriends.

OK

[vwrw]

I agree that combination of  factors influences WM  to chase FSUW. In my opinion the factors are 1) lighter weight of FSUW, 2) their willingness to accept a larger age difference, 3) their being street smart despite their incompetent educational system, and 4)  their efforts to look nice. All these factors were already mentioned.


The other three important factors are 1) heavy marketing of FSUW, 2) their willingness to relocate and begin their life anew and 3) their seeming similarity to Western people.
 
The #1...marketing is the impetus of trade, and the idea to look for a bride in FSU will come to any man considering the possibility of an international relationship because they are heavily advertised.  The other thing is that most people settle with the first satisfying alternative, not burdening themselves with the search for an optimum solution. In other words, men considering the possibility of an international relationship UNlikely will sit down and think if there is another place on the earth where women with qualities important for them are plentiful, so them stick with FSUW.

The # 2 is self explanatory.


The # 3...not long time ago, my husband and i watched a movie where a guy was sent in Indie to coach Indian employees of a call center appear more American during the phone conversations and this movie propelled my question why guys do not go to India to chase brides . They even speak English there. Briefly, my husband response was "they are toooooo diffident"
Therefore, it seems that at least superficial, perceived  similarity is important.