Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: msmob on May 30, 2018, 01:00:52 PM

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 30, 2018, 01:00:52 PM
I know in the early-mid nineties in the UK there was a real bad recession and some people went out to Germany to work. Some later had problems in claiming their state pension as while they were out in Germany they missed a number of years of contribution needed to qualify.

Hardly.. then can catch up their UK Nat.Insurance contributions ..or receive a lower UK pension and receive a small German one..

Boy, this IS tosh...Trench, not for the first time posts a 'theory' with no practical experience..

Generally though you need to know the language almost fluently for most jobs abroad, plus with the Euro valued at less than the pound you might earn less. It's alright for a bit of fun but think the fad wore off. Anyway, all those currently residing abroad will get permanent residency rights when we leave the EU and if they later want, citizenship.

As you know I lived and worked in a Euroland nation and the above is nonsense.... A GBP was worth 1.5 dollars in June 2016 and 1.3 Euros... The costs of living went up in the UK as the Pound dropped in value. But suggesting a Euro being worth less means a worse std of living is bollox.

Living in Limassol, Cyprus costed less and my standard of living was BETTER.


Generally the EU used to work fine until the Eastern Bloc was admitted since all the original members bar a few such as Greece had comparable economies.

More tripe... Check out 'PIGS' or later PIIGS, Trench.. that's Portugal, Italy ( laterly Ireland) Greece and Spain

Cyprus had a pretty stable economy..The CY pound was 'worth' more than a GBP ( going by the Trench std of economic compassion)


Unfortunately instead of structuring the EU to take this into account with a two tier/speed system ego won the day and an awful mess was created.

For sure, the stringent stds required to join Euroland were either not adhered to or fibbed about to get in...Enlargement was the aim..  For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..

May be you should get 'on your bike' (?)as Norman Tebbitt said to lazy moaners....

Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar


msmob is fathertime giving you lessons in finance? Over how long has the euro appreciated against the dollar? In December 2016 the euro was at a low of about 1.04 USD to 1 euro now it's about 1.17 USD to 1. So over about 18 months the euro has appreciated against the USD.

However if one takes a longer view say from March 2014 when the euro was at 1.39 USD to 1 euro, then the euro has depreciated against the USD. With currency exchange rates things change over time so it's necessary to state a time frame when discussing them.

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..


msmob again you're not stating a time frame. Yes a few Poles have returned to Poland however since the UK was opened to the movement of Poles to the UK literally hundred of thousands of them have move to the UK. In fact Poles are one of the largest foreign born groups in the UK and the vast majority of them arrived since 2004 (about 94,000) when the UK people were told by their government that allowing Poles into the UK would only result in a few 10,000s arriving. In 2016 there were more than 900,000 Poles living in the UK. A ten times increase in population in 12 years. The overwhelming majority of Poles will remain in the UK and never return to Poland except for visits.

The ultimate irony is that Poles in Poland do not want any migrants from the EU or from Africa, the Middle East or elsewhere to move to Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom#Population_size
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 02:36:39 PM
The euro is up significantly over where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.


There is a flight of Poles from the UK.  Lots of articles on it.  That is particularly so for educated Poles, the ones the UK least wishes to lose.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on May 30, 2018, 02:49:48 PM
BO

George (Soros)

is saying big storm ahead
urging bailing on equities
making me nervous
interest rate up in the usa causing dollar spike

I guess I can spend like a drunken sailor in Holland next week though
want a cheese wheel?

Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 05:43:08 PM
The euro is up significantly over where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Boethius unless you have a more reputable source than xe.com the euro is not up significantly from 2015-2017. The lowest point in the time frame you reference had the euro at about 1.04 USD to a euro. As of today it's about 1.16564 USD to a euro. About a 0.125 USD appreciation.

In May 2016 the euro was at about 1.14 USD to the euro. In August-October 2017 the euro was trading from 1.17 USD to 1.20 USD. IOW higher than it is today. 

Take a look:

http://xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=5Y


There is a flight of Poles from the UK.  Lots of articles on it.  That is particularly so for educated Poles, the ones the UK least wishes to lose.

True. Thousands of Poles are returning to Poland. Thousands of Poles, not hundreds of thousands. From 2004 to 2016, only 12 years, the number of Poles in the UK increased by 800,000 Poles. I doubt even 25% of that number will permanently return home.

Remember despite the massive number of Poles that moved to the UK over the 12 years and sent home millions of dollars, probably billions of dollars, in remittances, Poland now does not migrants from the EU, including I would assume the UK and migrants from outside the EU, moving to live and work in Poland. The height of irony.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 05:52:23 PM
A lot of Poles do not move permanently to the U.K., particularly tradesmen and unskilled workers. They send their families back to Poland, and they move back and forth. One of the issues Cameron was trying to negotiate with the EU before the Brexit vote was to cut U.K. child benefits made to non resident Eastern European children.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 06:56:55 PM
A lot of Poles do not move permanently to the U.K., particularly tradesmen and unskilled workers. They send their families back to Poland, and they move back and forth. One of the issues Cameron was trying to negotiate with the EU before the Brexit vote was to cut U.K. child benefits made to non resident Eastern European children.

The massive influx of Poles after 2004 was one of the reasons for the rise in anger with the UK government over immigration. The government said there'd only be a few tens of thousands of Poles at the most coming to the UK. Of course this was pure BS many average Brits knew the influx would be massive.

When this was happening my wife and I visited London often. London along with Paris are her favorite cities. I heard the same question over and over from Brits. Why would Poles stay in Poland if they can legally live and work in the UK and make far more money than doing the same in Poland? Hundreds of thousands will come to the UK said the average Brit. The UK government it wouldn't happen. The government had to know hundreds of thousands of Poles would move to the UK.

Don't know how long the tradesmen and unskilled workers stay in the UK. I'd suspect they will over time stay in the UK longer and longer until they're in the country permanently. The simple fact is life is better for the unskilled in the UK than in Poland.

Better pay and more benefits. The social safety net in the UK beats the Polish version. Kids will get a better education, better jobs and future. 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 07:13:06 PM
I’m not sure I agree their children have a better future, or a better education in the U.K.  Their PISA results are comparable. Poles work for less as they can go back to Poland and live well.  Here are a few articles-

http://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1BN26H

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/25/surge-in-poles-leaving-uk-since-brexit-vote-fuels-net-migration-drop



Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on May 30, 2018, 08:07:16 PM
Thousands of Poles are returning to Poland. Thousands of Poles, not hundreds of thousands. From 2004 to 2016, only 12 years, the number of Poles in the UK increased by 800,000 Poles. I doubt even 25% of that number will permanently return home.


Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 08:25:15 PM
Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/

Many people come to the US thinking they'll make enough money to return home and live comfortably in a low income country. What they don't understand is that they get used to the comforts of the US. Better living conditions. More and better job opportunities. Better food. Better life for their kids.

Maybe they have kids while in the US, then what, take the kids to a country the kids don't know? Maybe the kids don't speak the local language that well. Maybe the kids schooling in the US doesn't transfer to the parents' home country. Combine that with language problems and the kids aren't happy.

Apparently this is a problem with American raised and educated kids of Mexican descent moving to Mexico. The kids have lots of problems getting into a Mexican school. Foreign born kids of Mexican descent don't automatically have a right to an education in Mexico. The irony.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/11/13/498271392/invisible-children-raised-in-the-u-s-now-struggling-in-mexico

See this all the time in NYC. Many come and end up staying because life is better in the US. I've seen the same thing happen in Germany with Russians and other eastern Europeans. The same is probably holds true for the UK.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 08:40:56 PM
I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 09:12:28 PM
I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.

Those of Mexican descent will tell you different. In NYC, one sees this everywhere. Mexican Spanish is widely spoken along with other central and South American versions.

Various holidays from central and south American countries are celebrated, although not officially. Flags from Mexico and other countries are flown throughout the city.

Mexicans refer to themselves as Mexican-American. The attitude is they are Mexican first and American second. Even many of those born in the US have that attitude.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 09:15:19 PM
That's really no different from many first and second generation immigrants.  Look at Russians, as but one example.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 09:56:21 PM
That's really no different from many first and second generation immigrants.  Look at Russians, as but one example.

I don't think it's anywhere near as extreme with other ethnic groups such as the Russians or Chinese. Yes my wife wants our daughters to learn the Russian language and culture however we don't have a Russian flag in the house. I only know of one Russian-American couple that have a Russian flag at home. They don't wave it around on Russian holidays or when the Russians win at the Olympics or hockey matches.

We don't really celebrate many Russian holidays although we'll go out for a meal with other Russian couples who celebrate holidays. We're not religious so don't celebrate Orthodox Christmas.  Don't listen to Putin's speeches although we listen to or watch news in Russian. About the only thing we do is go to see the Russian ballet companies when they visit. My wife took years of ballet lessons and wanted to be a ballerina until she grew taller than all the boys and was kicked out of ballet school.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on May 30, 2018, 10:18:08 PM
There are Russian stores, selling nothing but FSU products, in any city of any size in North America.   Some cities have more than one such store.  There is an entire area in Brighton Beach that is basically a "Little Odessa".  Russians all over the US, based on information from this site alone, hold V-Day parties, complete now with St. George's ribbons. 

There are Russian language schools, if I go to any park on a weekend, there are Russians having parties with shashlik and (illegal) alcohol, speaking Russian.  I do go to church, though a Ukrainian church, and  it is full of Ukrainian immigrant families every week.  In fact, in some parts of my city, they outnumber locals.  I have no reason to believe the Russian Church (there are two in my city) are any less well attended.

So, I believe you are mistaken.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: alex330 on May 30, 2018, 10:31:22 PM
In general I find immigrants that are less educated, feel insecure or have limited upward mobility or options will cling to their old culture moreso than those who do. No hard numbers behind it, but just an observation.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 30, 2018, 11:19:44 PM
There are Russian stores, selling nothing but FSU products, in any city of any size in North America.   Some cities have more than one such store.  There is an entire area in Brighton Beach that is basically a "Little Odessa".  Russians all over the US, based on information from this site alone, hold V-Day parties, complete now with St. George's ribbons. 

Little Odessa, Little Russia and several other names it goes by is an area in south Brooklyn. Popular beach area in the summer. We go occasionally to do some shopping however with the influx of FSU people to greater NYC you can buy some of the Russian foods and other FSU ethnic foods in regular supermarkets and specialty stores in greater NYC.

Unfortunately over the last few years with the influx of Russians my wife and I have noticed more and more Russian mafia types. Last summer when we were in Brighton Beach our daughters noticed some well muscled and tattooed men sitting in an outdoor cafeteria. Because of the heat they were only wearing tank tops and many of their tats were visible. Wife whispered one word to me 'mafia'. Some places we just avoid because of them. According to our Russian friends there are more Russian mafia types in NYC now than ever before. Putin cracking down? Or it could simply be they're looking for illegitimate and legit business opportunities.

   
There are Russian language schools, if I go to any park on a weekend, there are Russians having parties with shashlik and (illegal) alcohol, speaking Russian.  I do go to church, though a Ukrainian church, and  it is full of Ukrainian immigrant families every week.  In fact, in some parts of my city, they outnumber locals.  I have no reason to believe the Russian Church (there are two in my city) are any less well attended.

So, I believe you are mistaken.

Russian language schools in NYC. Our kids went when younger but my wife didn't like some of the teachers and so she does most of the teaching at home. She's always speaking Russian with them and I even speak with them in Russian, especially when I don't want anyone else to know what I'm saying to them. We have all sorts of material. Buy some locally, get some sent from Russia and videos on the Internet. Our daughters don't seem to have many problems understanding other kids when we're in Russia.

When my wife first started working she worked as a tutor for math and physics. She put out an ad offering her services in English, Russian and German. We were both surprised by the number of requested she got for tutoring in Russian. Many Russians wanted their kids to have a better understanding of Russian and since they were learning the terminology in English in school they figured having the tutoring in Russian would help their kids understand Russian better.

We've been to parties at homes and on the local beaches and parks where most of the guests were FSU and booze, local and Russian was consumed illegally. IMO these parties seem far more subdued than the local Mexican version. Cinco de mayo in NYC is a big and noisy celebration.

Don't know about the Ukrainian and Russian churches in NYC. I'm sure they're well attended. 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 31, 2018, 06:10:25 AM
msmob is fathertime giving you lessons in finance? Over how long has the euro appreciated against the dollar? In December 2016 the euro was at a low of about 1.04 USD to 1 euro now it's about 1.17 USD to 1. So over about 18 months the euro has appreciated against the USD.

However if one takes a longer view say from March 2014 when the euro was at 1.39 USD to 1 euro, then the euro has depreciated against the USD. With currency exchange rates things change over time so it's necessary to state a time frame when discussing them.


I think YOU have been attending FT's school of bogus bollox.. ;)

I said "For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure"

The Euro hasn't been around THAT long - but seen a few crises ...It started at  1.16 in Jan 1999 and as we speak is 1.16 ... !!  It has recently fallen ( drastically )  thanks to the f'n stupid Italian voters ... but PRIOR to April 2016 and historically has spent more time ABOVE the launch base rate, YES ?

( Last month is was 1.25)

I am now stating a time frame

Naturally, It is noted that you didn't try to pick me up re the EUR-GBP...


msmob again you're not stating a time frame. Yes a few Poles have returned to Poland however since the UK was opened to the movement of Poles to the UK literally hundred of thousands of them have move to the UK. In fact Poles are one of the largest foreign born groups in the UK and the vast majority of them arrived since 2004 (about 94,000) when the UK people were told by their government that allowing Poles into the UK would only result in a few 10,000s arriving. In 2016 there were more than 900,000 Poles living in the UK. A ten times increase in population in 12 years. The overwhelming majority of Poles will remain in the UK and never return to Poland except for visits.

Whoops... Whilst it is true that Poles are still the highest EU 'foreigners' - and they have the right to live/ work here - they ARE leaving - because 'UK PLC' - post 'Brexit poll' has THE worst performing economy re recover - as opposed to the best before the vote

The ultimate irony is that Poles in Poland do not want any migrants from the EU or from Africa, the Middle East or elsewhere to move to Poland.

Fixed that for you.


Poland signed up to join the EU and that means freedom of movement for EU citizens - it simply cannot 'refuse' migrants from other nations in the EU

It should not be refusing the non EU 'refugees',either having signed up to a Directive - 'must do' - to share the load and it will end up being fined - along with Hungary and Austria

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 31, 2018, 07:43:03 AM
Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/

BillyB

Neither Dave or you are correct  :deadhorse:


HINT:  Since the 'Brexit vote' the GBP has fallen in value against the Polish currency and many more Poles are LEAVING - as opposed to 'arriving'


Try searching "Poles leaving UK"

Loath as I am to quote from a 'Brexit supporting comic' ..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/ (http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/)

See what happens when you REALLY don't know stuff and quote old  data from the net ?



Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on May 31, 2018, 07:45:51 AM
I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?


Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on May 31, 2018, 08:03:14 AM
BillyB

Neither Dave or you are correct  :deadhorse:


HINT:  Since the 'Brexit vote' the GBP has fallen in value against the Polish currency and many more Poles are LEAVING - as opposed to 'arriving'


Try searching "Poles leaving UK"

Loath as I am to quote from a 'Brexit supporting comic' ..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/ (http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/)

See what happens when you REALLY don't know stuff and quote old  data from the net ?


Read the article you supplied carefully. The Polish Deputy Prim Minister said “We are creating lots of new jobs for people with experience of working in Britain. Polish are starting to realise that there are exciting opportunities waiting for them back home.”

Nowhere does it say Brexit is the catalyst for Poles to return home. They are saying they are providing a better environment for their citizens to return home. You're so anti Brexit it clouds your reading ability since you want everything to be Brexit's fault.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on May 31, 2018, 08:42:29 AM
I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?

krimster2 when Polish citizens were allowed to move about the EU the average Brit knew that lots of Poles would move to the UK. It made sense. Poles could earn lots more in the UK and benefits available were very good compared to what they received back in Poland.

The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

msmob keeps repeating how Poles are leaving the UK for Poland. That's true a few thousand are returning to Poland. Lots of articles about it but few if any of the articles mention how many. By no stretch of the imagination are 800,000 Poles going to return to Poland. At best 25,000 or 30,000, 50,000 at most IMO. We'll know in a few years when new immigration numbers come out.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 31, 2018, 09:03:36 AM

Read the article you supplied carefully. The Polish Deputy Prim Minister said “We are creating lots of new jobs for people with experience of working in Britain. Polish are starting to realise that there are exciting opportunities waiting for them back home.”

Nowhere does it say Brexit is the catalyst for Poles to return home. They are saying they are providing a better environment for their citizens to return home. You're so anti Brexit it clouds your reading ability since you want everything to be Brexit's fault.

BillyB



1/ So you don't deny you were wrong to quote old data ?

2/ I DID say this was from a 'Brexit supporting comic' AND to search "Poles leaving the UK"

There you WILL find Poles speaking of 'Brexit's negativity

Really, WHY DO you try to deflect when you've posted daft   ( once more) - been busted - and offer up some lame diversionary 'red herring' - rather than admitting you were just plain WRONG in our contention

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on May 31, 2018, 09:10:25 AM
There you WILL find Poles speaking of 'Brexit's negativity





So you take an article written by an anti Brexit journalist who interviewed a few anti Brexit Poles and submit it here as proof that the economic situation in the UK is dire due to Brexit. Let's stick with facts, not opinions. The sky is not falling in the UK due to Brexit.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on May 31, 2018, 09:19:44 AM
"The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK. "

thank you!
I had no idea!!

interesting comparison between that and the major 1965 US immigration law changes which under-counted future immigration from non-European countries because it did not account for family chaining in its predicted totals, similar kind of numeric underestimation, maybe deliberate? or accidental?



 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 31, 2018, 09:23:23 AM
I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?

1/ Ignorance

2/ Racists

3/ Lazy gits who were undercut by smarter, harder working and more conscientious E.Europeans

Here's an example, below:

krimster2 when Polish citizens were allowed to move about the EU the average Brit knew that lots of Poles would move to the UK. It made sense. Poles could earn lots more in the UK and benefits available were very good compared to what they received back in Poland.

WRONG: Britain invoked an EU rule that permitted Poles ( and other new E.European countries)  to come - and work - only if they had WORK permits - for SEVEN years... NO easy access to benefits - That is a total fallacy - same rule applied
 to Romanian and and Bulgarian citizens - whose restrictions ended 3 years later

David Cameron had negotiated a EU derogation to ensure no easy resort to 'public funds' for 2 years.

As it was, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single EU person to get benefits - unless they had worked / non been a burden on the state whilst resident

I KNOW this because I know a Lithuanian ( eth RU ) lady who lived with a Brit, split and had no recourse to Public Funds - even though she had been resident over five years...

Such stories of big benefits are perpetrated for the benefit of non-too-clued up Brits - who voted 'Brexit' ...I'm surprised  you repeat such tripe


The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK.


Hmm, the then Labour govt paid for a report on expected numbers and based on the 'work permit' condition - they VASTLY underestimated that UK employers would welcome harder working, more reliable and intelligent workers

The current govt -  follows a govt that was pro EU  - it's the same Political Party - just has different ministers - but ensured the seven year 'work permit to work' rule.  Anyone saying they 'did nothing' to cut immigration must believe UKIP bollox - as it turns out the PM - as Home Sec oversaw all sorts of dodgy stunts to try to cut immigration...  The new Home Sec fell on her sword - to protect the PM - but we now know our PM will sit on the fence and allow others to take a fall - rather than own a howler

msmob keeps repeating how Poles are leaving the UK for Poland. That's true a few thousand are returning to Poland. Lots of articles about it but few if any of the articles mention how many. By no stretch of the imagination are 800,000 Poles going to return to Poland. At best 25,000 or 30,000, 50,000 at most IMO. We'll know in a few years when new immigration numbers come out.

Sighs, it's too early to know - hence your figures are BULL 'IMHO' 

IF they came here for economic stability and better money - then the conditions have changed and Germany and 'home' offer more prospects than 'my' country

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 31, 2018, 11:24:33 AM
Hardly.. then can catch up their UK Nat.Insurance contributions ..or receive a lower UK pension and receive a small German one..

Boy, this IS tosh...Trench, not for the first time posts a 'theory' with no practical experience..

As you know I lived and worked in a Euroland nation and the above is nonsense.... A GBP was worth 1.5 dollars in June 2016 and 1.3 Euros... The costs of living went up in the UK as the Pound dropped in value. But suggesting a Euro being worth less means a worse std of living is bollox.

Living in Limassol, Cyprus costed less and my standard of living was BETTER.


More tripe... Check out 'PIGS' or later PIIGS, Trench.. that's Portugal, Italy ( laterly Ireland) Greece and Spain

Cyprus had a pretty stable economy..The CY pound was 'worth' more than a GBP ( going by the Trench std of economic compassion)


For sure, the stringent stds required to join Euroland were either not adhered to or fibbed about to get in...Enlargement was the aim..  For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..

May be you should get 'on your bike' (?)as Norman Tebbitt said to lazy moaners....

Well Mobers to answer your questions, yes there is a limited time to pay for the missed years NI contributions but unless your a high earner you are likely to be paying more than you normally would. Whether you qualify for any other pension would depend on their rules and whether they change over time.

Anyway, the reason most Euroland economies are outperforming the UK is because they are sucking the lifeblood out of the UK like a parasite Even the pro-EU George Soros in this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44292870

...states the big and therefore "hard to fill" hole in EU budget. Its because we are funding a lot of East European re-construction & modernization, they couldn't do it otherwise, the money is being robbed from Britain in the form of EU membership fees, slapped with the EU Money Label and given to projects in Poland. In reality the projects its funded in Poland, etc should have a sign saying funded by the UK taxpayer not funded by the EU, its a damn cheek, we get robbed the EU takes the glory.

When we leave the EU you watch the reversal in fortunes for these Eastern Bloc Countries, Germany is already tied up with bailing out Greece, etc, no that they appreciate it. They will essentially be no more money funding these projects and their economies will slump. Ours will be released from the heavy weight of EU membership that is dragging it down. If other countries such as Italy follow suit and I think they will we soon won't have to worry about the EU trying to hold us to ransom every which way they see. Giving the EU so much power & control was a mistake, now they daily try and bully us with it into backing down and staying in the EU against the will of the people.

Again the George Soros states that opinion polls to leave the EU have not changed significantly since the referendum, that it is basically the same as at the referendum. This is further evidence to show there is deep rooted support to leave the EU and the democratic mandate to leave the EU remains.

Even George Soros states, "The 2008 financial crisis and the huge influx of refugees in 2015 had led many young people to regard the EU as an enemy that has deprived them of jobs and a secure and promising future". So you see Mobe even he a pro-remainer sees many of the young voted to leave with good reason. The problem with Soros is that he has found all of this out (he has billions to do so) yet he still is only interested in seeing it from his own position as a rich guy. He like many remainers think the UK should be forced against its will to stay in the EU and against the UK electoral mandate. That's like trying to bolt the door after the horse has bolted, the British electorate who voted Leave won't stand for it. Essentially you can't admit to the failings of the EU as Soros does then claim its a failing the UK should be part of, its laughable.

Anyone remember the ERM? Lol, another EU disaster that hit the UK economy severely, Soros did well out of it though, so can we trust that man? I think not.

As far as Poles leaving, many have been leaving, but more at every counting period have been coming in than leaving. Its clear as day in the official statistics so there is little to argue over. There has been a decline in the numbers coming to the UK but that number still exceeds those leaving the UK in the same period of counting, at each period of counting. Poles don't do as well as before the referendum to leave the EU because our currency has fallen a little against there's (2016 rougly 6PLN to the Pound, now its roughly 5PLN, but in 2014 it was only 5PLN also, so really affected that much?) but they still do well enough to keep coming here.

I think a large number of Poles will go for Dual Citizenship of both country's. They will want to keep earning good money here and send/live better on it back home. The main deal is we will have resisted loads more coming and swamping us here, with have a housing crises after all. It makes economic sense for a Pole to go for Dual Citizen, I would do in their shoes, nearly all of them will no doubt think with their head (or wallet) and not their heart and go for Dual Citizenship.

Over the years & decades to come though the access of further Poles being able to come to the UK will very likely slow. Whether this will have an impact on Ukrainians illegally working in Poland will have to remain to be seen. I personally think that the EU held off taking in all off the East European countries, bar Russia in one go as our money did not stretch that far to try and sort them out all at once. Also of course they were weak as they did not wish to upset Russia/Yeltsin. I think with the lack of money when the UK leaves the EU may not admit Ukraine. I personally think the EU should have put aside its grand schemes and admitted all the Eastern European nations, bar Russia as second tier members with no freedom of movement to first tier members and set its sights on more achievable less lofty goals but unfortunately the EU is driven by ego manics and all sense went out the window.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on May 31, 2018, 11:14:48 PM



So you take an article written by an anti Brexit journalist who interviewed a few anti Brexit Poles and submit it here as proof that the economic situation in the UK is dire due to Brexit. Let's stick with facts, not opinions. The sky is not falling in the UK due to Brexit.

Duh,

The first article I posted was from 'The Sun' - a pro Brexit 'comic' that some call a 'newspaper'

Do you dispute the UK Nat Stats office re my economic data ?

As for numbers leaving - the UK has it's next census in 3 years - we'll have to wait 'til then to know who's right ...

In the meantime, how many  Poles that live / lived in the UK do you know ..?   

As for 'The Sky is no falling in' ..Indeed ?  You missed the Bank of England ( like the Fed) chief report that his forecasts - ( made Pre Brexit) were wrong DUE TO THE UNCERTAINTY of 'Brexit' and that Families were £900 / year worse off

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 01, 2018, 05:34:53 AM
Notice Moby didn't respond to anything I said in my last comment as of course it is all factually correct.

Well the Governor of the Bank of England is pro-remain, a Canadian who came in before the referendum. I don't think he is very competent, I think he happened to be sitting around when the Canadian economy was doing well and took a lot of the credit. Since gaining the Governor position here he has repeatedly cited a need to raise interest rates for many years but has been made to look foolish when economic data proved there was no need, like recently when he wanted to raise interest rates in may but then inflation rate fell for two consecutive months, lol. He had no choice other than to back down,  the man's a fool and a menact to the British economy, would be best if he went.

Mark Carney has also made repeated scare mongering statements about Brexit, most if not all have proved entirely false. Any falls on the value of the pound was not helped by his opening and closing of his mouth. Most pro-leave like myself essentially want him to go and be replaced by someone more on board with the whole Brexit process.

Well anyway Mobe, just 9 Months now until we leave the EU :D Not long now!!! :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 01, 2018, 07:43:54 AM
As for numbers leaving - the UK has it's next census in 3 years - we'll have to wait 'til then to know who's right ...



You talk to people as if they're ignorant but you can't find anything on the internet to back your claims. You talk as if you're right and now you say we got to wait three years to know who's right. :rolleyes:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 01, 2018, 11:05:41 AM
Well Mobers to answer your questions, yes there is a limited time to pay for the missed years NI contributions but unless your a high earner you are likely to be paying more than you normally would. Whether you qualify for any other pension would depend on their rules and whether they change over time.

Again, you post like someone who hasn't been in the situation to know ... addressing someone who has and DOES ..  You really love walking onto punches ..;)


Anyway, the reason most Euroland economies are outperforming the UK is because they are sucking the lifeblood out of the UK like a parasite Even the pro-EU George Soros in this article:

No...  You can't have read you own link - he mentions NOTHING in the context you suggest  :deadhorse:

FACT: 'Brexit' uncertainty is holding UK PLC back ...   No my works - it's the BoE chief's

Germany is doing just fine and it is a net contributor to the EU - a daft Trench 'excuse' blown apart and busted with ease ....'

When we leave the EU you watch the reversal in fortunes for these Eastern Bloc Countries, Germany is already tied up with bailing out Greece, etc, no that they appreciate it. They will essentially be no more money funding these projects and their economies will slump. Ours will be released from the heavy weight of EU membership that is dragging it down. If other countries such as Italy follow suit and I think they will we soon won't have to worry about the EU trying to hold us to ransom every which way they see. Giving the EU so much power & control was a mistake, now they daily try and bully us with it into backing down and staying in the EU against the will of the people.

As I said Germany isn't 'suffering'  - 'WE' in the UK are - because of the 'Brexit vote' and we haven't even left yet and the 'savings' we were supposed to make are 5 times more in losses already

Just heard a TORY MP - ex Doctor saying that we need 'a few pence' on income tax to support the standard of NHS we expect


Again the George Soros states that opinion polls to leave the EU have not changed significantly since the referendum, that it is basically the same as at the referendum. This is further evidence to show there is deep rooted support to leave the EU and the democratic mandate to leave the EU remains.

No...once again you don't pay attention ...  these were other polls ...  Frankly, the members of MY family who voted leave now admit they made a howler


Even George Soros states, "The 2008 financial crisis and the huge influx of refugees in 2015 had led many young people to regard the EU as an enemy that has deprived them of jobs and a secure and promising future". So you see Mobe even he a pro-remainer sees many of the young voted to leave with good reason. The problem with Soros

Soros is referring to his native Hungary... HOW MANY times ?  The UK opted out of the Directive to share the refugee load... It is a non - issue for the UK 


Essentially you can't admit to the failings of the EU as Soros does then claim its a failing the UK should be part of, its laughable.

You NEVER deal with facts that bust your bollox and once again - we see you tried to twist the 'words' of someone without checking fact ...

Anyone remember the ERM? Lol, another EU disaster that hit the UK economy severely, Soros did well out of it though, so can we trust that man? I think not.

The ERM was a disaster for the UK and why we didn't join the Euro ... you know the currency that despite many trials has appreciated against the Pound ....

As far as Poles leaving, many have been leaving, but more at every counting period have been coming in than leaving.

I believe you'll find that is bollox - based on NI numbers being issued - MORE Trench bollox

Its clear as day in the official statistics so there is little to argue over.

It's as clear as day that you can't even use stats to support your case ...

There has been a decline in the numbers coming to the UK but that number still exceeds those leaving the UK in the same period of counting, at each period of counting.

Also untrue ...  You may be getting Poles confused with Bulgarians and Romanians, now ....


Poles don't do as well as before the referendum to leave the EU because our currency has fallen a little against there's (2016 rougly 6PLN to the Pound, now its roughly 5PLN, but in 2014 it was only 5PLN also, so really affected that much?) but they still do well enough to keep coming here.

Except that they are - overall leaving - you just can't read stats ..  Bearing in mind that's a 20 percent difference and Poland's ( like other EU economies )  has been expanding FAR quicker than the UK's  - it would make sense that Poles would be leaving - if economic migration is the key

I think a large number of Poles will go for Dual Citizenship of both country's. They will want to keep earning good money here and send/live better on it back home. The main deal is we will have resisted loads more coming and swamping us here, with have a housing crises after all. It makes economic sense for a Pole to go for Dual Citizen, I would do in their shoes, nearly all of them will no doubt think with their head (or wallet) and not their heart and go for Dual Citizenship.

Ho ARE we 'resisting' seeing there is NO change to their fights to freedom of movement until at least another 1.5 years ... WHERE do you make up your twaddle ?   

Those that will have been here five years and not been a burden on UK PLC can stay - no problem ...     You have never done an application for an EU citizen / or their non EU spouse / family members to remain here - THAT IS FOR SURE ...

I speak from experience - you are posting TWADDLE


Over the years & decades to come though the access of further Poles being able to come to the UK will very likely slow. Whether this will have an impact on Ukrainians illegally working in Poland will have to remain to be seen. I personally think that the EU held off taking in all off the East European countries, bar Russia in one go as our money did not stretch that far to try and sort them out all at once. Also of course they were weak as they did not wish to upset Russia/Yeltsin. I think with the lack of money when the UK leaves the EU may not admit Ukraine. I personally think the EU should have put aside its grand schemes and admitted all the Eastern European nations, bar Russia as second tier members with no freedom of movement to first tier members and set its sights on more achievable less lofty goals but unfortunately the EU is driven by ego manics and all sense went out the window.

Sighs, the volume of bollox just ever flows ..

1/ Ukraine is NOT an EU member -- it has a LOT of sorting out to do before completing the Chapters to accede to membership

So, we now see Trench know nothing about EU accession, either ... You forget I lived in a nation that had to go through the process ..so ONCE AGAIN - I can spot Trench BS ... YOU never lived through such a process

2/ Russia .. has never shown a sign of wishing to join - preferring her dream of a Commonwealth of  States - incl Ukraine

It's Friday night, Trench ... you REALLY need to find a friend - rather than posting tripe
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 01, 2018, 12:19:50 PM
Well, I'm not a party guy so I don't hinge everything on a Friday or Saturday night.

Fact of the matter is if we joined the Euro we would have been drawn into the Greek Financial crises and would have had to waste UK taxpayers money to bail them out - money which would never be seen again. The Greek crises exposed a crucial flaw in the Euro that to use it in a decentralized manner for many nations it does not suit the economic circumstances of all nations.

I would not buy Euro's, I get the feeling that a big crises could be just around the corner which hits it real bad and will make this currency worth way less. Italy is just the start, there is also Spain, Greece hasn't gone away as a problem then probably France. Other EU nations may well follow.

When I go away on my trip shortly I will be paying in GBP a currency you can bank on :) I see this currency as obtaining a big rerate back upwards post Brexit.

In the future I think you will become grateful that we kept the pound and left the EU Mobe, particularly when EU Europe descends into chaos and economic turmoil.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 01, 2018, 06:13:06 PM
OK, so not a single  riposte to my busting your previous 'contentions' - not that their could be one

What we have is a suggestion that we (UK )might be better off out of the Euro - we might ..  but currently the EU is outperforming the UK economy - as are most western economies...  :deadhorse:

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 02, 2018, 04:36:07 AM
Well when we leave the EU in about 9 Months time it should at lest take us out off this trade war which has just started kicking off between the US and the EU. See how much better our economy does than the EU by being out of that one :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 02, 2018, 08:45:11 AM
Well when we leave the EU in about 9 Months time it should at lest take us out off this trade war which has just started kicking off between the US and the EU. See how much better our economy does than the EU by being out of that one :)

1/ How DO you figure the little 'ol UK is going to benefit from the Emperor with no Clothes smiling benevolently upon us ?  Try to THINK before responding ..

2/ Leaving the EU - in case you missed it will change v.little as nought has been agreed - things will carry on as before

3/ So, you STILL duck our crap recovery - compared to the EU members and other western states and have some blind faith that 'we' can negotiate trade deals that normally take 10 years ? What IS it with daft people who voted ' Brexit' ?  Can't they see we are already considerably worse of ... that it was ALL so predictable ?

'We' are going to be a tiny island that imports nearly everything and cannot even compete in the financial service sector - unless we become a dodgy tax haven

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 02, 2018, 11:01:19 AM
Mobe, the 'crap' recovery as you state it is not necessarily so. Each .1 percent growth is more to an advanced economy such as ours than a poorer economy such as Greece. You are misrepresenting the economic situation. Our unemployment is low compared to the likes of Italy & Spain, and it haS been falling. Our inflation & interest rates are low. There are one or two things to work on a big but overall we are doing well enough but more importantly stable enough.

The trade war with the US is one of the areas which demonstrate how we will be more versatile post Brexit. I'lld wager that if the UK was already out of the EU, Trump would have passed us over on the tariffs. Essentially it would not have been worth his while, that and he sees the use of having the UK onside to the US.

Problem is with being part of the EU amount many is that we get too caught up in all these EU problems. The EU does indeed seem problem prone and ineffective at dealing with them when they occur.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 03, 2018, 12:11:03 AM
Mobe, the 'crap' recovery as you state it is not necessarily so. Each .1 percent growth is more to an advanced economy such as ours than a poorer economy such as Greece. You are misrepresenting the economic situation. Our unemployment is low compared to the likes of Italy & Spain, and it haS been falling. Our inflation & interest rates are low. There are one or two things to work on a big but overall we are doing well enough but more importantly stable enough.

The trade war with the US is one of the areas which demonstrate how we will be more versatile post Brexit. I'lld wager that if the UK was already out of the EU, Trump would have passed us over on the tariffs. Essentially it would not have been worth his while, that and he sees the use of having the UK onside to the US.

Problem is with being part of the EU amount many is that we get too caught up in all these EU problems. The EU does indeed seem problem prone and ineffective at dealing with them when they occur.

Once again, you respond proving you haven't a scoobie do what you are talking about

So, you STILL think that Trump would single 'us' out - even though he is ( for example) shafting Canada ? ;)

Greece, Spain. Italy ARE full members of the EU and their economies ARE  recovering faster than ours .  THe problems they have ( large numbers of migrants ) were not and are not ours - due to opt outs LONG since agreed

Once again - you brought up many 'mistakes' of the Federalist EU and drop 'em when I point out the reality ..(.e.g ERM)

When we you offer up something that isn't a doddle to bust ? 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 03, 2018, 03:34:28 PM
Once again, you respond proving you haven't a scoobie do what you are talking about

So, you STILL think that Trump would single 'us' out - even though he is ( for example) shafting Canada ? ;)

Greece, Spain. Italy ARE full members of the EU and their economies ARE  recovering faster than ours .  THe problems they have ( large numbers of migrants ) were not and are not ours - due to opt outs LONG since agreed

Once again - you brought up many 'mistakes' of the Federalist EU and drop 'em when I point out the reality ..(.e.g ERM)

When we you offer up something that isn't a doddle to bust ?

Italy, Greece & Spain may be recovering faster than ours as you put it because their economy was hit way harder than ours. Overall we are doing way better than them, we importantly have lower unemployment figures, low inflation and low interest rates. Ukraine no doubt marvels at out economic figures compared to theirs.

Compared to Canada we are a small island and not on America's backyard or doorstep, Trump sees us as less of a threat, a potential partner with which to do business with. Trump also likes Britain. Most of the alienation Americans have come from too much competition from the likes of China, Canada, etc not from Britain.

Mobes face it your soon not going to be able to recruit sweat shop labour no more. You may have to actually have to do some real work yourself instead of living of the backs of East European labour.

The constant arguing from remoaners such as yourself has actually helped our cause. Now because of it people have been wound up into becoming entrenched in their decision to vote for what they voted for in the referendum. So as the article pointed out that essentially remains 52 percent for Leave & 48 percent for Remain - looks like we still win even today :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 05, 2018, 05:36:09 AM
Italy, Greece & Spain may be recovering faster than ours as you put it because their economy was hit way harder than ours. Overall we are doing way better than them, we importantly have lower unemployment figures, low inflation and low interest rates. Ukraine no doubt marvels at out economic figures compared to theirs.

Tosh...   They didn't have so many families buying their homes on credit  - for one..

Please explain why the USA, Australia, Canada, Germany, are all showing us the way - when 'WE' were showing them the way before the suicidal 'Brexit' vote ?

Compared to Canada we are a small island and not on America's backyard or doorstep, Trump sees us as less of a threat, a potential partner with which to do business with. Trump also likes Britain. Most of the alienation Americans have come from too much competition from the likes of China, Canada, etc not from Britain.

You really do post bollox, whilst not helping your 'case' ..


Mobes face it your soon not going to be able to recruit sweat shop labour no more. You may have to actually have to do some real work yourself instead of living of the backs of East European labour.

Not that I ever have. ( employed folk for shyte pay.) .. Just another Trench 'let's make it up as I go along'...    This is the level of'riposte' you're reduced to ?

The constant arguing from remoaners such as yourself has actually helped our cause. Now because of it people have been wound up into becoming entrenched in their decision to vote for what they voted for in the referendum. So as the article pointed out that essentially remains 52 percent for Leave & 48 percent for Remain - looks like we still win even today :)

Trench, my kids will ensure UK PLC is back in ...  giving some time in the wilderness ..the EU made it clear we can rejoin
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 07, 2018, 05:55:08 AM
Well now, Trench

Poor 'ol Mrs May and her Brexiteers are busy fighting it out and have come up with a 'proposal' to 'ensure' no hard border with the EU member Rep of Ireland .... but STILL - like you - don't get it ...

"In Brussels, the view is that the UK government is "still talking to itself", said BBC Europe editor Katya Adler. "While it's doing that it's not coming here with a unified position."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44391539 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44391539)

Her Majesty's Govt. is NOT trusted on this issue - as it KEEPS trying to fob off on crunch deadlines - but as I KEEP telling you - this is the crunch issue

ALL Mrs May is doing is pushing back the date when the house of cards will come crashing down

Meanwhile - despite the best attempts of the  'promise much - but impossible to deliver popularists in Italy -  the Euro is up against the GBP and Dollar ...




Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 13, 2018, 02:49:10 PM
Well what did I say about how the EU withdrawal vote would go down, eh Mobe :D what did I say :D

That the Labour (Leave) rebels would cancel out the Tory (Remain) rebels and the government WOULD :D get enough votes to vote down the Lords amendment to compel the UK to take steps to join/remain in a Customs Union (EEA) with the EU. The government also essentially voted down all the other Lords amendments without having to rely on the DUP ;D

What I didn't predict and took even me by surprise was the hugh Labour Rebellion that sided with the government over the Customs Union (EEA) vote. It went beyond the handfull of just a few Labour (Leave) Rebels that I expected and no doubt many others, other than Mobe. It dwarfed the number of potential Tory (Remain) rebels and amounted to a complete collapse in Remain support in Labour and in the House of Commons in general :)

It means with little support for a Customs Union remaining in the House of Commons the House of Lords and the EU will now have to accept that their cause to force the UK back into the Customs Union as a hopeless battle and one which they have lost :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 14, 2018, 01:31:43 AM

You talk to people as if they're ignorant but you can't find anything on the internet to back your claims. You talk as if you're right and now you say we got to wait three years to know who's right. :rolleyes:

1/ if the cap fits, BillyB

2/ In the meantime, if you can find something from a recognised UK authority on demographics, welcome.

There's a chlenge for you..

BTW, still waiting for you to counter the skeptical scientists many counters to 'there's no evidence of global warming'
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 14, 2018, 03:05:11 AM
Well what did I say about how the EU withdrawal vote would go down, eh Mobe :D what did I say :D

Mrs May had to make concessions to win and ALL she has done has put off the showdown

http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025 (http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025)




That the Labour (Leave) rebels would cancel out the Tory (Remain) rebels and the government WOULD :D get enough votes to vote down the Lords amendment to compel the UK to take steps to join/remain in a Customs Union (EEA) with the EU. The government also essentially voted down all the other Lords amendments without having to rely on the DUP ;D

What I didn't predict and took even me by surprise was the hugh Labour Rebellion that sided with the government over the Customs Union (EEA) vote. It went beyond the handfull of just a few Labour (Leave) Rebels that I expected and no doubt many others, other than Mobe. It dwarfed the number of potential Tory (Remain) rebels and amounted to a complete collapse in Remain support in Labour and in the House of Commons in general :)

It means with little support for a Customs Union remaining in the House of Commons the House of Lords and the EU will now have to accept that their cause to force the UK back into the Customs Union as a hopeless battle and one which they have lost :)

Trench - like dating - you read things VERY badly

ALL Mrs May has done has put off THE DAY ..

The key is was and will be the border Q ...

I do not agree with a 'Norway' EEA -style agreement - obeying the rules of a club - but not influencing the the rules by being sat at the table is ridiculous

As for your arithmetic... tell us what would have happened if the DUP and 2 more Tories voted against the govt ?

Many 'Rebels' have made it clear they only saved the govt - as they had received assurances

"In a sign that the government saw the prospect of defeat looming, the solicitor general, Robert Buckland, intervened from the front bench, saying there was “much merit” to parts of the compromise amendment.

Shortly afterwards, the former attorney general left the chamber, later joined by the bulk of the remain rebels, who had been sitting together in a corner of the Commons, raising speculation they had been offered a last-minute compromise.

After the vote, Grieve told the Guardian: “I am very pleased that the government has listened to the concerns of many colleagues and has responded positively to the need to amend the bill further to provide a proper mechanism to enable parliament to act, where necessary, if there is no deal or a deal is rejected by negotiations.

“We will now work with the government to get acceptable amendments tabled in the Lords to address this.”

Source Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote)

Best of all, the EU have to agree whatever HMG come up with re the 'border Q' and as things stand - I don't see that happening - so it will be " 'hard Brexit' and no border deal time"  - and you wait and see Mrs May squirm



 


 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: 2tallbill on June 14, 2018, 09:56:37 AM
I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.

Let me go turn the water on at the tap and have a nice drink while
I think of what would happen if I did that in Mexico while pondering
if the 113 political candidates that have been murdered since September
exceeds the number killed in the USA.

Knowing that in Mexico I can always get paid at least the minimum wage
of 88.36 pesos per day ($4.27) is always reassuring. 

Yes, you are correct life in Mexico is just as good as the USA.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 14, 2018, 11:28:41 PM
Mrs May had to make concessions to win and ALL she has done has put off the showdown

http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025 (http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025)



Trench - like dating - you read things VERY badly

ALL Mrs May has done has put off THE DAY ..

The key is was and will be the border Q ...

I do not agree with a 'Norway' EEA -style agreement - obeying the rules of a club - but not influencing the the rules by being sat at the table is ridiculous

As for your arithmetic... tell us what would have happened if the DUP and 2 more Tories voted against the govt ?

Many 'Rebels' have made it clear they only saved the govt - as they had received assurances

"In a sign that the government saw the prospect of defeat looming, the solicitor general, Robert Buckland, intervened from the front bench, saying there was “much merit” to parts of the compromise amendment.

Shortly afterwards, the former attorney general left the chamber, later joined by the bulk of the remain rebels, who had been sitting together in a corner of the Commons, raising speculation they had been offered a last-minute compromise.

After the vote, Grieve told the Guardian: “I am very pleased that the government has listened to the concerns of many colleagues and has responded positively to the need to amend the bill further to provide a proper mechanism to enable parliament to act, where necessary, if there is no deal or a deal is rejected by negotiations.

“We will now work with the government to get acceptable amendments tabled in the Lords to address this.”

Source Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote)

Best of all, the EU have to agree whatever HMG come up with re the 'border Q' and as things stand - I don't see that happening - so it will be " 'hard Brexit' and no border deal time"  - and you wait and see Mrs May squirm


Mobe If you read the BBC articles it was clear there was a complete collapse in support for the Customs Union, 90 Labour MPs voted against the Lords amendment, far higher than the few Labour (Leave) Rebels there usually are. Looks like the electorate in Leave constituencies have been making it clear to their representative MP's to vote down the Lords amendment and the consequence of not doing so :)

The compromises reached on a few of the other Lords amendments are small & not significant in nature. The main aspects of the Bill have been put back in place without any of the Lords amendments. They are highly unlikely to reimpose these amendments when bI'll returns to the Lords having already been heavily voted down in the Commons they know tgey wold look fpolish and there wold vE aN outcry. The minor compromise amendments being put forward to the Lords is to offer them a fig so their noses aren't put out of joint so they can eventually pass the bill without losing face and being totally humiliated. The battle is all but over Mobe and Remoaners have all but completely lost :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 15, 2018, 02:28:56 AM


Mobe If you read the BBC articles it was clear there was a complete collapse in support for the Customs Union, 90 Labour MPs voted against the Lords amendment, far higher than the few Labour (Leave) Rebels there usually are. Looks like the electorate in Leave constituencies have been making it clear to their representative MP's to vote down the Lords amendment and the consequence of not doing so :)

So, you are STILL talking about the 'EEA option' vote - that - as explained to you - few sensible MPs want - as even remain supporting folk would lynch 'em !


The compromises reached on a few of the other Lords amendments are small & not significant in nature.

 :D

So 'small and insignificant' that 'Brexit cabinet ministers have already made it clear then won't honour them - by altering what had been agreed.

Now the bill is going to get bounced by The Lords and Mrs May will have to deal with 'remainers' who won't compromise THIS  time...

As you mentioned the BBC - you should have read THIS :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44482652 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44482652)

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 15, 2018, 03:44:42 AM
So, you are STILL talking about the 'EEA option' vote - that - as explained to you - few sensible MPs want - as even remain supporting folk would lynch 'em !

Does that now include you Mobers :D Are we now flip flopping ourself away from the Customs Union idea now that it is essentially dead in the water after the a hugh rebellion in the Labour Party where there was 'supposed' to be big support for it.

The other matter of what happens if no deal is met though important is much less significant. Essentially the article you put forward will just likely mean a bit more haggling & kicking the issue around before it is settled. Make no mistake Mobers the Lord's efforts to push their 15 Amendments onto the commons has essentially been defeated. I can't see them having any grounds left on which to alter the bill any further nor any mandate to now that their nearly all of their amendments were defeated so convincingly :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 15, 2018, 06:43:13 AM
Does that now include you Mobers :D Are we now flip flopping ourself away from the Customs Union idea now that it is essentially dead in the water after the a hugh rebellion in the Labour Party where there was 'supposed' to be big support for it.

Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 15, 2018, 08:23:30 AM
Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))

Since the High Court's decision says MPs must have a vote on leaving the EU what happens if MPs defy May and vote to stay in the EU? Is it likely  MPs will vote to stay in the EU?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 15, 2018, 09:48:39 AM
Which Court Case, Dave ?

Are you confusing the case over invoking article 50 ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 15, 2018, 10:37:37 AM
Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))

Mobe, the EEA is very little different from the Customs Union, it is essentially pretty much the same deal. Both require us to accept Freedom of Movement and both require us to accept EU rules without being able to decide them, i.e rule takers not rule makers. So in both cases we would be off in a worse position than before. We would still have to pay into the EU also another no go area.

The idea being touted around by some in Labour that we could have a different Customs Union agreement is laughable - the EU has already said it is impossible if Free Movement of People is not part of it. The Free Movement of people aspect is another no go area. Essentially it was just cooked up as a compromise in the Labour Party as they were just as divided as the Tories and didn't want the cavernous splits to show in all its full glory which it now has done. Corbyn is just going along with any silly ideas on a Customs Union compromise within Labour to try and avoid his whole party breaking in two.

The Lords put a specific amendment in to require the government to take steps towards staying in or joining a new Customs Unoon,  it had nothing to do with the EEA if you chose to actually see them as separate. This amendment was voted down to as so the abuse by the Lords remainers to force the Gov & country against its will into a customs union failed. The Lords have no where else to go now and their role in all of this will soon be over :)

I hardly think 3 companies woes amount to anything happens all the time, it's nothing to do with Brexit. Poundworld found itself swamped by other pound discount shops and so it's profits were squeezed. House of Fraser it has already been stated has been suffering like many high street retailers to compete with the rise of Internet shopping and the convenience it offers. Rolls Royce are just struggling to sell their product nothing to do with Brexit looming, it's the product they have to make appealing again for the high price they are asking for it.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 15, 2018, 01:11:09 PM
Which Court Case, Dave ?

Are you confusing the case over invoking article 50 ?

Haven't being following the Brexit planning with the UK government. Ran across this article from January this year. Did this challenge make it to the High Court? Every time I read something about Brexit, MPs are challenging something in court and Brits say Americans are litigious.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-high-court-legal-challenge-single-market-eea-theresa-may-2018-1
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 15, 2018, 02:39:44 PM
Dave, think your talking about Gina Miller. She was basically a stooge of the likes of George Soros and other powerful business men & companies. She was a front for them to put a legal challenge forward to Brexit essentially to try and block Brexit from happening in the House of Commons.

It was originally thought that while the people had voted for Brexit the House of Commons as a whole were against it and so could vote against Article 50 do thereby stopping Brexit. Yet despite Gina Miller's eventually successful win in the High Court of Appeal, bet that cost a bit ;) by that time the balance in the House of Commons had moved towards Leave. Basically some MP's go with their party's decision, some go with their constituents decision and done realise the way the wind is blowing, do not wish to go against he electorial mandate.

Now why a Ghanaian born woman would want to spend so much money legally challenging a electorial mandate for Brexit is laughable. I never thought the original decision to state that Parliament vote on whether to issue article 50 should have been overturned in the court of appeal. It essentially said Gina Miller's views counted for more than the whole of the UK Leave mandate at the time of the referendum. Technically Article 50 should have been signed the moment the decision to Leave came through.

Anyway, she later mounted a legal challenge that Parliament should have a meaningful vote on Brexit negotiation's outcome. I believe she won this in the high court also. She had basically meddled in the running of the country and undermine the democratic will of the people, incredibly arrogant and conceited towards the UK electorate whose vote apparently she can make worthless.

Fortunately she seems to have shut up for some time now as the hurdles she put in the way were straddled over & things moved on. It just goes to show how high handed and insipid the Remain lot are. They wish to impose their undemocratic will by any means over the given electorial mandate for Brexit. Totally wrong.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 15, 2018, 03:54:33 PM
Haven't being following the Brexit planning with the UK government. Ran across this article from January this year. Did this challenge make it to the High Court? Every time I read something about Brexit, MPs are challenging something in court and Brits say Americans are litigious.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-high-court-legal-challenge-single-market-eea-theresa-may-2018-1 (http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-high-court-legal-challenge-single-market-eea-theresa-may-2018-1)


The challenge in the decision you linked is not being made by MP's.  The Brexit challenge (Article 50) was made by a failed political candidate.  The EEA challenge you linked also has been made by a candidate, not an MP.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 15, 2018, 04:11:52 PM

The challenge in the decision you linked is not being made by MP's.  The Brexit challenge (Article 50) was made by a failed political candidate.  The EEA challenge you linked also has been made by a candidate, not an MP.

True however if the challenge is successful then MPs might get to vote on leaving the EU and of course that will only happen if the challenge is successful.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 15, 2018, 04:23:42 PM
The Court has already held that MPs must vote on article 50 -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Miller)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Exiting_the_European_Union


The article you linked relates to the EEA, which is a distinct issue from a Brexit exit.


MP's can vote as they wish, and this is causing some issues for Labour, as there are some Labour MP's who will vote to cede from the EU, contrary to Labour's policy.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 15, 2018, 08:36:03 PM

Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 15, 2018, 09:43:25 PM
Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?

IMO if Merkel's party loses the support it needs to stay in power and another party assumes office she'll retire. With the way German politics appear to work, at least IMO, any party that replaces Merkel will probably be anti-immigration and probably a coalition of several parties.

http://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkels-battle-with-bavaria-refugees-migration-masterplan/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 15, 2018, 11:17:36 PM
Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?

Solvenia too had a rise in support for anti EU party right after Italy. They got 25 percent share of the vote so one of the largest but unlike in Italy it looks like a more pro EU coalition will keep them out of gov. Italy certainly looks like the next big one that may consider leaving if they don't get what they want from Brussels. Spain & Greece both. Have bad economy with high unemployment so stuff may happen their longer term. France & the Netherlands both chose not to put anti EU candidate in power last time round but their support is on the up. I think if the likes of Macron don't come good then next time there may be a good possibility. Hungary & Poland are upset with the EU, Hungary over refugee issues.

So a lot off discontent with the EU. The EU essentially point blank refuse to compromise on the fundamental s it holds so dear. I think they think these fundamentals are the only sound way forward and over time they will be proved right. I think that they have overlooked the important intricacies of Europe and it's nation states and the difference s in their economies & societies. I also think they are ego led and trying to rush too much too quickly in terms of unifying Europe towards one nation state. I think they have lost touch with what people want out of the EUm They want an association which they are in control of and work on matters of shared mutual interest. They don't want an EU super state to dominate them. This has always been a goal of pro EU politicians & the commissioners, their political project, but the people of the EU most care about their circumstances not done political project that at the moment seems to be having adverse affects.

Difficult to say will it survive. I doubt it will collapse quickly. The EU will have less money after the UK leaves the EU since we were a net giver to the EU. That may persuade Italy to leave as the EU seeks more from the top Economies of Europe despite their economic woes. I still think it probably will survive but whether it will just be the UK to leave and in what form the EU will end up in I've no idea.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 16, 2018, 07:04:29 AM
DaveNY

WHY is it the 'experts on Brexit' from overseas - Trench's 'versions of reality' are bad enough - keep posting nonsense and then NEVER put their hands up and don't say " HELL, I just proved I was clueless' ;)

But Boethius and myself have tried to explain the your court case and the vote are history ...article 50 was triggered  ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 16, 2018, 07:06:26 AM
IMO if Merkel's party loses the support it needs to stay in power and another party assumes office she'll retire. With the way German politics appear to work, at least IMO, any party that replaces Merkel will probably be anti-immigration and probably a coalition of several parties.

http://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkels-battle-with-bavaria-refugees-migration-masterplan/

Hmmm, you seem to forget that the AfD aren't going to win any concessions unless they get more votes than the CDs, Socialists and Greens combined ...

Another FAIL on Euro politics .... it's not your week, mate ;)


Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 16, 2018, 07:12:16 AM
Dave, think your talking about Gina Miller. She was basically a stooge of the likes of George Soros and other powerful business men & companies. She was a front for them to put a legal challenge forward to Brexit essentially to try and block Brexit from happening in the House of Commons.

IF you wish to believe trench's version of events - that'd be like hiring him as a dating guru..

1/ Gina Millar may not be British born - but she IS a British citizen and has every right to bring such cases..She is a V.intelligent lady

2/ Trench likes to 'forget' that while Soros is funding groups to keep the UK in Europe - the 'leave' vote  may well have been funded by sources that are just as influential

3/ The House of Commons VOTED to trigger article 50 - not the govt - as had been the plan

Poor 'ol Trench - simply doesn't understand ..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 16, 2018, 04:18:41 PM
DaveNY

WHY is it the 'experts on Brexit' from overseas - Trench's 'versions of reality' are bad enough - keep posting nonsense and then NEVER put their hands up and don't say " HELL, I just proved I was clueless' ;)

But Boethius and myself have tried to explain the your court case and the vote are history ...article 50 was triggered  ;D

As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on June 16, 2018, 06:21:57 PM
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

Sorry, this is a very weak standpoint. That you have an MBA, I will not hold that against you.

While I can point to a Dutch and American background and have a reasonable sense of the reality of Ukraine. I do not bandy about my opinions as the future direction that various foreign governments should follow.

I can share my insights and opinions with regard to political matters, but telling, demanding or otherwise berating a foreign government is boorish. The Brexit effects me on a family basis in a negative manner, but I respect the wish of those who voted in the majority to leave. In fact I think it was correct. Unfortunately reforms in Brussels/Strasbourg have failed to be presented and enacted. So yes I suspect the tide is rising to an anti-Euro sentiment.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 16, 2018, 08:10:52 PM
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

I assume you mean forum posters. I’ve never posted how America should be run. I don’t really care how it’s run. It’s your country, not mine. I am free to point out hypocrisy and the consequences of actions.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 16, 2018, 09:01:05 PM
I assume you mean forum posters. I’ve never posted how America should be run. I don’t really care how it’s run. It’s your country, not mine. I am free to point out hypocrisy and the consequences of actions.

Not just forum members. As I mentioned I've lived in the UK and Russia and traveled throughout Europe. Admit to being an American and someone will tell you what America is doing wrong and how the American government should be working.

Immigration is the classic example. Most everyone from some other country says America should be taking in millions more immigrants per year because we're rich and big. In some extreme examples they say America should have open immigration, because we're rich with lots of open land. In their opinion anyone who wants to live and work in the US should be free to do so. When I ask if their country allows open immigration, they say no because their country is not rich like America. This opinion was from a Dutch person.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 16, 2018, 11:32:55 PM
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

Honestly, I 'get' how you must feel when non US citizens join in on your issues with guns or your President, but if I post STUPID re a fact ...I expect to be corrected and learn...

What we just gkt was a lot of words, but STILL no '' Thanks, Boethius / Moby, for correcting my howler re the Court case on who could trigger Article 50'' )))
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 17, 2018, 09:34:34 AM
The Brexit effects me on a family basis in a negative manner, but I respect the wish of those who voted in the majority to leave. In fact I think it was correct. Unfortunately reforms in Brussels/Strasbourg have failed to be presented and enacted. So yes I suspect the tide is rising to an anti-Euro sentiment.

 If the EU lets the UK and other nations be in the drivers seat for more of their own affairs, nations are less likely to leave. I don't know if you read the article I supplied in another thread but Obama was disappointed that Trump is undoing much of what he accomplished at home and abroad. Obama, with many EU leaders wanted to make the place one big melting pot. With Trump's election victory, Obama questions that many still have the tribe mentality.

I do not think the tribe mentality is bad. People proud of their culture and nation isn't a bad thing. I've always supporting immigration in America but immigrants are guests and should observe and respect the culture and house they live in. The owners of the house should be able to limit the amount of guests.

If the EU addressed the concerns and gave in to some of the demands of UK citizens by giving them some control over their destiny, Brexit wouldn't have happen. Brexit won by a slim margin. The EU gambled. It was an all or nothing vote. They lost and got nothing.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 17, 2018, 11:16:41 AM
If the EU lets the UK and other nations be in the drivers seat for more of their own affairs, nations are less likely to leave. I don't know if you read the article I supplied in another thread but Obama was disappointed that Trump is undoing much of what he accomplished at home and abroad. Obama, with many EU leaders wanted to make the place one big melting pot. With Trump's election victory, Obama questions that many still have the tribe mentality.

I do not think the tribe mentality is bad. People proud of their culture and nation isn't a bad thing. I've always supporting immigration in America but immigrants are guests and should observe and respect the culture and house they live in. The owners of the house should be able to limit the amount of guests.

If the EU addressed the concerns and gave in to some of the demands of UK citizens by giving them some control over their destiny, Brexit wouldn't have happen. Brexit won by a slim margin. The EU gambled. It was an all or nothing vote. They lost and got nothing.

BillyB

I await you posting on something about the  EU / UK that proves you have a clue.

Today, Mrs May suggested the National Health Service will receive monies 'saved' from not paying to the EU - yet her own Challencor of Exchequer reminds us that 'UK PLC' is already 15 Billion Pounds a year WORSE off in revenue - due to Brexit uncertainty...

The likes of National Enquirer and The Sun readers will lap up auch bollox ... 

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 17, 2018, 11:26:26 AM
I read even anti Brexiters are rethinking their decision, thanks to Trump’s tariffs.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 17, 2018, 11:31:24 AM
You mean Brexiters ? ...   :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 17, 2018, 11:34:18 AM
Oops. Yes, you are correct. I’m watching a movie so I’m distracted.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 17, 2018, 11:40:45 AM
Oops. Yes, you are correct. I’m watching a movie so I’m distracted.

You mean you aren't watching Brazil v Switzerland ? ;) 

NB Northern Ireland should be in Switzerland's place, tonight

Quoting from a comic The Sun 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5321985/referee-penalty-world-cup-northern-ireland-ovidiu-hategan/ (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5321985/referee-penalty-world-cup-northern-ireland-ovidiu-hategan/)

But I'm not bitter ....
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 17, 2018, 11:43:48 AM
No. The better half watches. I have no interest.  I'm also baking bread, so I have to be around to watch it, or I'd be doing something more useful.

PS - I'll ask the better half about that penalty.  He does watch football regularly.  It's really the only thing he watches on television.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 17, 2018, 11:59:19 AM
The likes of National Enquirer and The Sun readers will lap up auch bollox ...

For a short time, I actually read the same trash you read. I believed Brexit and Trump was going to lose. After the liberal media duped me, I didn't believe the sky was going to fall for the UK. You apparently still believe the sky is going to fall and need the EU to hold your hand. You need to change the way you're getting educated.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 17, 2018, 12:52:22 PM
For a short time, I actually read the same trash you read. I believed Brexit and Trump was going to lose. After the liberal media duped me, I didn't believe the sky was going to fall for the UK. You apparently still believe the sky is going to fall and need the EU to hold your hand. You need to change the way you're getting educated.

I'm MUCH better educated than you, BillyB - so that was a REALLY daft thing to say ..

Since the UK economy is now recovering more slowly than her EU partners and even the guy who sets the UK govt spending and the Bank of England chief speak of 'UK PLC' being worse off - due to Brexit uncertainty ...  guess what ?  I think I was right ...

The UK IS worse off and you aren't here to see it ...    The UK Conservative Party isn't 'liberal' , soft lad ....  But your 'expertise' on UK / Euro politics is entertaining



Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 17, 2018, 02:16:55 PM
I think I was right ...


You can think you're right but you don't know if you're right. I'd bet money the UK will be around longer than the EU. They aren't as great as you make them out to be. More nations will be leaving. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 18, 2018, 12:19:13 AM
BillyB

From the Bank of England ( independent of the govt.) and others..

Not that the results of trying to leave were in doubt for anyone who had a clue...

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Brexit barriers could cost households £1k each, report argues - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44511829 (http://Brexit barriers could cost households £1k each, report argues - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44511829)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 20, 2018, 10:42:29 PM
Well Mobers, looks like the EU withdrawal bill has finally passed through Parliament will become law :D

Yet another Remoan defeat!

All that 'remains' now is the finishing of negotiations with the EU. Hopefully they will now see manoeuvring to keep the UK in the EU by back door methods as a lost cause and they will get on & do a decent deal :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 20, 2018, 10:49:51 PM
Clueless as ever.... it passed as those seeking reassurance that Parliament....not the govt.  ... would be able to decide the future in the event of a 'no deal' scenario.

Once again, the govt is STILL just putting off the crunch decision.

From politics to dating....FAIL
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 21, 2018, 04:34:56 AM
Clueless as ever.... it passed as those seeking reassurance that Parliament....not the govt.  ... would be anle to decide the future in the event of a 'no deal' scenario.

Once again, the govt is STILL just putting off the crunch decision.

From politics to dating....FAIL

Moby 14 of the 15 Lords Amendments were defeated. Even this one was whittled down from what they wanted. The passing of the EU withdrawal bill is the last big hurdle cleared. The House of Lords that was largely pro remain now cannot interfere or intervene any longer, it's played it's hand and lost.

This bill greatly strengthens the government and it moves us one important step closer to Brexit. The EU will now see that there is no majority support to remain in the EU not within the Electorate or in Parliament. They are now likely to be more reasonable about reaching a deal with the UK or risk their already fragile economies decking still further. I'm sorry Mobes but looks like you've lost this one :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 21, 2018, 04:40:36 AM
Moby 14 of the 15 Lords Amendments were defeated. Even this one was whittled down from what they wanted. The passing of the EU withdrawal bill is the last big hurdle cleared. The House of Lords that was largely pro remain now cannot interfere or intervene any longer, it's played it's hand and lost.

This bill greatly strengthens the government and it moves us one important step closer to Brexit. The EU will now see that there is no majority support to remain in the EU not within the Electorate or in Parliament. They are now likely to be more reasonable about reaching a deal with the UK or risk their already fragile economies decking still further. I'm sorry Mobes but looks like you've lost this one :)


Trench - you are like BillyB - walking on to punches- simply because you don't understand stuff

The Govt had to CONCEDE ...Greive got  most of what he wanted - allowing the 'rebels' to vote with the govt. 

ALL this 'fuss' was over the power the govt wanted in the event of a 'no deal scenario' ..

It is nigh on IRRELEVANT - as I KEEP telling you ..The EU / Govts...   position on the border Q will sort all this out

Is this too hard for you to comprehend

 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 21, 2018, 07:04:40 AM


Trench - you are like BillyB - walking on to punches- simply because you don't understand stuff

The Govt had to CONCEDE ...Greive got  most of what he wanted - allowing the 'rebels' to vote with the govt. 

ALL this 'fuss' was over the power the govt wanted in the event of a 'no deal scenario' ..

It is nigh on IRRELEVANT - as I KEEP telling you ..The EU / Govts...   position on the border Q will sort all this out

Is this too hard for you to comprehend

So you think we're not going to Brexit or we will join/stay in the customs union? Lol

That would mean most of those in the cabinet would turn on Theresa, she would be out. You would need either the Remainers in the Tory party to regain control in a leadership election or the Labour Party to gain control as the result of another General Election.

The ramification if this is what you are driving at would be a likely return of UKIP and a reopening of the Remain/Leave split in the Tory party. Division in the Labour Party now possible also.

The customs union Lords amendment failed in the Commons. Most see it as a bad deal I can't really see that flying.

Staying in the EU that people voted out of and many in Parliament are against with both Article 50 triggered and now the Withdrawal bill passed. I can't see it. I don't know how you can? Perhaps check in with the bookies you would know doubt get good odds and make a lot of money if you were right :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 21, 2018, 07:16:03 AM
So you think we're not going to Brexit or we will join/stay in the customs union? Lol

I think your question is serious, despite the Lol ..

We have to 'Brexit' - the question is how  - the penny will drop ...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 21, 2018, 08:57:41 AM
I think your question is serious, despite the Lol ..

We have to 'Brexit' - the question is how  - the penny will drop ...

Well there are essentially only three option:

- An agreement on cross border trade & movement of people, the government's preferred option.

- a hard border and possible tariffs.

Or

- a customs union.

------------------------------

Well, either of the first two options are fine by me. There's much fuss made by UK business about a hard border/possible tariffs but truth is unless the tariff s are Uber steep they are nothing to wealthy companies, they won't stop trade at all they will provide government with the money it needs to finally balance the books.

The DUP will either just have to become realistic if the EU won't do a new trade deal or they will risk being side lined. Now that the EU withdrawal bill had passed they will no longer have as much influence.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 21, 2018, 09:06:06 AM
Trench, if it comes to the DUP choosing a 'hard border' or supporting the Tories - you'll find I was right all along..

This poster realises that all recent events are meaningless as the EU and Her Majesty's Govt have to agree - and that seems unlikely 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 21, 2018, 09:29:12 PM
Another example of the daftness you seek ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44570931 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44570931)

"Airbus warns no-deal Brexit could see it leave UK"

Financial and Aviation industry decimated ... 'GOOD plan'...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 22, 2018, 02:13:28 PM
Another example of the daftness you seek ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44570931 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44570931)

"Airbus warns no-deal Brexit could see it leave UK"

Financial and Aviation industry decimated ... 'GOOD plan'...

Why should we let these companies push the buttons of what happens in this country. They shouldn't think they can push us around though as an Irishman perhaps you enjoy it, hey Mobes ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 22, 2018, 02:27:09 PM
Why should we let these companies push the buttons of what happens in this country.

They aren't 'pushing buttons'... they are simply stating business FACT, soft lad ....   No investment - until this farce is sorted

This isn't 'Project Fear ' - this is what happens when voters vote like sheep for unrealistic dogma

 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: ML on June 22, 2018, 03:55:23 PM
Winston Churchill once said something like:  The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute talk with a group of average voters.  Brexit ??
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 22, 2018, 08:28:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Churchill - but he had a point..

As ML has previously pointed out - many nations a salivating at the business opportunities the Brits are giving away through this lunacy - the Sky is falling in ... WAKE UP Trenches of this world

Now BMW ..warns ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831)

BMW joins Airbus in Brexit warning
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 22, 2018, 08:42:43 PM
Fact of the matter is Mobe that the UK will be able to make trade deals with other countries more easily than when in the EU. That is worth far more in the long run than the short termism of just a couple of countries.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 22, 2018, 09:05:05 PM
the Sky is falling in


Where was the UK before the EU? They were once the most powerful empire in the world. Now you think you need the EU to hold your hand to keep you from falling. If America joins the EU it would drag us down. Tell your countryman to work harder and nations will want to do business with you. UK may also want to change some laws that aren't business friendly.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 22, 2018, 09:09:47 PM
Fact of the matter is Mobe that the UK will be able to make trade deals with other countries more easily than when in the EU. That is worth far more in the long run than the short termism of just a couple of countries.

Trench - the FACT is you aren't getting the memo - by the time any deals are done - it'll be too late for the likes of Airbus, BMW, etc.,

You should listen to BillyB

He remembers how 'great' the UK was doing before we joined Europe   :deadhorse:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: JayH on June 23, 2018, 01:56:41 AM
Reluctant to bother commenting -- but -- Brexit and Trump era  have much in common ie they will both do irreversible harm to their countries  !!   And take many years to reverse and recover  from the lunacy -after they are gone and reversed.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 23, 2018, 02:52:36 AM
Reluctant to bother commenting -- but -- Brexit and Trump era  have much in common ie they will both do irreversible harm to their countries  !!   And take many years to reverse and recover  from the lunacy -after they are gone and reversed.

The latter is FAR more serious as 'Trampu' could start wars with long-term allies
Title: EU Issues
Post by: 2tallbill on June 24, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
The end of memes? Campaigners dismayed at European internet ruling
Article 13 of a new E.U. law would place responsibility for enforcing copyright onto
platforms rather than individuals, with potentially big implications for internet culture.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/end-memes-campaigners-dismayed-european-internet-ruling-n885726

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2018, 11:19:06 AM

Moby, you may want to have a talk with the Italians. They just voted in an anti EU government and the name Italexit has been floating around. Let them know they can't live without the EU holding their hands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/21/fresh-alarm-italy-apostles-italexit-take-control-parliament/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 24, 2018, 01:00:59 PM
Moby, you may want to have a talk with the Italians. They just voted in an anti EU government and the name Italexit has been floating around. Let them know they can't live without the EU holding their hands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/21/fresh-alarm-italy-apostles-italexit-take-control-parliament/

BillyB

You might want to stop cutting and pasting from pro Brexit journals  :deadhorse:

I have Italian friends - who are fed up with all the old parties and corruption ..

IF you had a clue - you'd realise that the Italians can't afford to leave the Euro .. the Euro dipped to 1:15 USB and recovering - since wiser heads prevailing

How many times a day do you reckon you can post as daft as you do ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 24, 2018, 01:30:56 PM
Perhaps Sandro and BC can offer their perspectives, as they both live in Italy.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2018, 02:08:54 PM
IF you had a clue - you'd realise that the Italians can't afford to leave the Euro .. the Euro dipped to 1:15 USB and recovering - since wiser heads prevailing


You were clueless to how your fellow countrymen were going to vote in the UK and Brexit surprised you. I don't expect you to know what is going on elsewhere in the world and how people's feelings are changing pertaining to the EU. There are articles about anti EU vote in Italy's last election in other countries media. Just Google if you don't like the one I supplied. After Italy's election, it moved markets. That should tell you something. Even if they don't leave soon, it's still a question of when. Any country can leave. Germany and France should spread the love around more evenly if they want the EU to survive.

http://www.fxstreet.com/analysis/italexit-9-questions-and-answers-to-the-italian-crisis-and-potential-euro-exit-201805291314
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 24, 2018, 02:10:11 PM
BillyB

I have Italian friends - who are fed up with all the old parties and corruption

You know enough Italians to give a statistically relevant opinion on the feelings of Italians towards the EU? I doubt it.
 
IF you had a clue - you'd realise that the Italians can't afford to leave the Euro .. the Euro dipped to 1:15 USB and recovering - since wiser heads prevailing


The current Italian government doesn't care whether or not they can afford to leave, many elected government officials just want to leave the EU. The Italian government knows that things are only going to get worse with migration from Africa and Italy is one of the first ports of call.

Too many boatloads of migrants landing in Italy demanding asylum and the UK and other EU countries saying the migrants landed in Italy first so the migrants are Italy's problem. Maybe it's just a negotiating tactic to get the UK and other countries to take more migrants and give Italy a few euros for their troubles or maybe the Italians are just fed up with the EU?

Italy knows if they leave the EU they can simply devalue the revived lira. If Greece can survive so can Italy. Of course there's also #Grexit to contend with? Maybe #Frexit? If France left after the UK, that would definitely end the EU. 

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 24, 2018, 11:30:54 PM
You know enough Italians to give a statistically relevant opinion on the feelings of Italians towards the EU? I doubt it

I know FAR more about the situation than BillyB...   There are other members who live in Italy and may chose to comment
 
The current Italian government doesn't care whether or not they can afford to leave, many elected government officials just want to leave the EU. The Italian government knows that things are only going to get worse with migration from Africa and Italy is one of the first ports of call.

The current Italian govt is a coalition - it is made of up of quite a spectrum ...   MY experience of many Italian coalitions is they fragment when the chips are down - when promises made ( or unrealistic ones ) cannot be implemented

Too many boatloads of migrants landing in Italy demanding asylum and the UK and other EU countries saying the migrants landed in Italy first so the migrants are Italy's problem. Maybe it's just a negotiating tactic to get the UK and other countries to take more migrants and give Italy a few euros for their troubles or maybe the Italians are just fed up with the EU?

Why be a BillyB and prove you are out of your depth ?

1/ The UK - whether it remained in the EU ( or not ) was not part of the EU-wide Directive on sharing the load re refugees

2/ Italy, Greece and Spain ( Cyrus to a much less degree) ARE taking an unfair burden ..  This problem is a nightmare and does indeed have the capacity to - at the very least - bring the Schengen agreement to and end


Italy knows if they leave the EU they can simply devalue the revived lira. If Greece can survive so can Italy. Of course there's also #Grexit to contend with? Maybe #Frexit? If France left after the UK, that would definitely end the EU.

You REALLY don't have a clue..

I was in Greece ( an island ) THE night it could have crashed out of the Euro ...I didn't meet ANY Greek who wanted that ...

Italians thinking they can simply 'walk away' forget that - like the UK - they have long term commitments to the EU budget and if they are wise - they should be watching other nations circling the UK to pick up the trade 'we' Are already losing due to uncertainty



Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 25, 2018, 12:59:44 AM
Well pro Brexit rally in London the other day failed to get any attendance from any of Labour's front bench cabinet team. It looks like they are moving with the wind meaning it's all over for any real concerted remain support in Parliament :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 05:17:57 AM
Well pro Brexit rally in London the other day failed to get any attendance from any of Labour's front bench cabinet team. It looks like they are moving with the wind meaning it's all over for any real concerted remain support in Parliament :)

Trench

This is the first of your daft posts of the day, I assume ?

You'll remember Mrs May said she was in favour of remaining (v. quietly ) and grabbed her chance to be leader ?

The Labour opposition has been trappist - because they are allowing the Tories to war in public ...  at least one knows where individual Tories stand ...

I don't trust many Politicians as they are more worried about their pensions 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 25, 2018, 08:39:54 AM
they have long term commitments to the EU budget


If Italy chooses not to meet those commitments, is the EU going to go to war over it?

they should be watching other nations circling the UK to pick up the trade 'we' Are already losing due to uncertainty


Many in the UK felt the huge dues owed to the EU didn't bring desired return. Italians may be feeling the same way. Their GDP used to be 2.4 Trillion dollars years ago and in 2016, it's down to 1.85 trillion dollars. Germany's, France's, UK's GDP all went down too while America and China's went up in the same span of time.

You don't seem to understand immigration issues and questionable value of EU membership is on people's minds. I still predict the UK will be around a lot longer than the EU. The EU may someday come begging the UK to help them survive.

http://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
If Italy chooses not to meet those commitments, is the EU going to go to war over it?

The 'BillyB' of the day - Don't you realise that modern wars are being fought using trade / commerce / access to markets as a weapon ? :deadhorse:

Many in the UK felt the huge dues owed to the EU didn't bring desired return.

Many ( sheeple)  in the UK believed

1/ 'we'd' be 300 Million Pounds / week better off - not that we EVER sent that much to the EU - it was a LIE - period

2/ Were annoyed to find we have to contribute to the EU budget for years - even after leaving ....  It's called 'Rules', BillyB

Italians may be feeling the same way. Their GDP used to be 2.4 Trillion dollars years ago and in 2016, it's down to 1.85 trillion dollars. Germany's, France's, UK's GDP all went down too while America and China's went up in the same span of time.

Dear BillyB, Using pure GDP is a very outmoded and inaccurate stat - the other day I asked you if you had any investments and you ducked the Q ... How is the Dow doing since 'Trampu' initiated the latest trade war ?

I prefer to use GDP - per capita - which shows the USA in 20th, UK 40th and Ireland in 11th place ..China is 106th ....

Quoting the CIA world fact booking rankings


http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html)



You don't seem to understand immigration issues and questionable value of EU membership is on people's minds. I still predict the UK will be around a lot longer than the EU. The EU may someday come begging the UK to help them survive.

How many nations have you visited in the past year BillyB ? .. I'm on 16 since Nov 2017 ...   Believe me - I know FAR more about immigration rules  / employing staff from other nations than you forgot

The UK is just as likely to have member states leave and re-JOIN the EU - bearing in mind 50% of member states don't want to leave in the first place

Do try to answer the question about investments, BillyB ...or are you waiting for a day - when they go up ?))

Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 25, 2018, 09:39:41 AM
I know FAR more about the situation than BillyB...   There are other members who live in Italy and may chose to comment

Sandro and a couple of others? So now the count is up to 3? I'm surprised the NY Times haven't called asking for your opinion on Italy leaving the EU.
 
The current Italian govt is a coalition - it is made of up of quite a spectrum ...   MY experience of many Italian coalitions is they fragment when the chips are down - when promises made ( or unrealistic ones ) cannot be implemented

Political coalitions are a fact of life in Italy. It's been that way for decades.

Why be a BillyB and prove you are out of your depth ?

No more than you and I have an Italian passport.


1/ The UK - whether it remained in the EU ( or not ) was not part of the EU-wide Directive on sharing the load re refugees

2/Italy, Greece and Spain ( Cyrus to a much less degree) ARE taking an unfair burden ..  This problem is a nightmare and does indeed have the capacity to - at the very least - bring the Schengen agreement to and end

As you say Italy, Greece and Spain ( Cyrus to a much less degree) ARE taking an unfair burden that means others including the UK have to take in more refugees.

You REALLY don't have a clue..

You keep saying that to everyone that disagrees with you. You allude to information that few except you have access to yet you never reveal this information.

I was in Greece ( an island ) THE night it could have crashed out of the Euro ...I didn't meet ANY Greek who wanted that ...
I saw crowds of Greeks on TV who wanted out of the euro. Where were you?

Italians thinking they can simply 'walk away' forget that - like the UK - they have long term commitments to the EU budget and if they are wise - they should be watching other nations circling the UK to pick up the trade 'we' Are already losing due to uncertainty

If the EU disbands there go the commitments.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 25, 2018, 09:45:17 AM
Don't you realise that modern wars are being fought using trade / commerce / access to markets as a weapon ? :deadhorse:


So you think the EU is bitter and will try to make the UK suffer economically because you left them? If so, why are you recommending your fellow citizens to run back into their arms? Kind of like recommending a victim of domestic violence to run back into her ex husbands arms because she'll live a better life with him than partnering up with a different man.

How is the Dow America doing since 'Trampu' initiated the latest trade war ?


America is doing very well economically. The Dow doesn't represent America. Trump is going to apply 20% tariffs on European cars soon. It will encourage European auto makers to build their factories in America increasing jobs for Americans. Europe will retaliate of course to get American car manufactures to build cars in Europe. How many American cars were you buying compared to Americans buying European? America will win the auto war. Stocks dropped on American and European car manufactures based on talk about car tariffs. Stupid people will sell their stocks. Smart people will buy them when they're low. People will continue to buy cars. Stocks will go back up. Where they're going to be made is going to change.

Dear BillyB, Using pure GDP is a very outmoded and inaccurate stat - the other day I asked you if you had any investments and you ducked the Q


Play with the chart in the link below. When America had it's recession in 2008, our GDP took a small dip. Europe and the rest of the world took a dive. From 2014-2016 Europe took even a BIGGER dive while America's GDP went up. How do you not feel a 15% drop in GDP? Are you that clueless? Lots of Europeans felt it and are questioning the value of the EU and it's leaders. You still think the EU is the best thing to come out since sliced bread.

Link doesn't go straight to the chart depending on your browser. Click on Economic Policy and Debt and then choose GDP production(current). Then check Europe and North America to compare. All data supplied by World Bank

GDP Chart  (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=region:ECS:NAC&ifdim=region&tdim=true&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false)

How many nations have you visited in the past year BillyB ? .. I'm on 16 since Nov 2017 ...   Believe me - I know FAR more about immigration rules  / employing staff from other nations than you forgot


I've been to Canada recently for a day which makes me an expert on all things Canadian. If you have any questions about the Canadian way of life, just ask me. :rolleyes:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 12:03:41 PM
So you think the EU is bitter

When it comes to trade wars started by others  - bitter is a taste many workers will taste



..will try to make the UK suffer economically because you left them?

Another BillyB ... the EU has made it clear that the UK would be welcome to rejoin ....  do you always read so selectively ..

IF the UK leaves without an agreement in  place we'll' be on the default WTO tariff rate ... try to read up before posting daft


If so, why are you recommending your fellow citizens to run back into their arms? Kind of like recommending a victim of domestic violence to run back into her ex husbands arms because she'll live a better life with him than partnering up with a different man.

Your analogies suck, too ..  Moist young people voted to remain ... I expect they will get us back in


America is doing very well economically.

so are most capitalist economies emerging from the 2007 debacle .. in spite of their leaders ..



The Dow doesn't represent America.

It represents confidence .... I note that the 30 LARGE US firms it measures prices have FALLEN since 'Trampu' kicked off the Trade War

Your truly are blind or dense - try answering the question, BillyB ... How is the index doing..is is SO hard to say .. "Oh crap , Moby ... you were right, AGAIN ..."    Not that is takes Einstein ..


Trump is going to apply 20% tariffs on European cars soon.

and THAT will be responded to with tariffs that hurt other key US industries in 'Trampu' voting territory ...  pain v pain - no gain ..


Play with the chart in the link below. When America had it's recession in 2008, our GDP took a small dip. Europe and the rest of the world took a dive. From 2014-2016 Europe took even a BIGGER dive while America's GDP went up. How do you not feel a 15% drop in GDP? Are you that clueless? Lots of Europeans felt it and are questioning the value of the EU and it's leaders. You still think the EU is the best thing to come out since sliced bread.

BiilyB - honestly I DO NOT KNOW - how to interpret data..  let's play ..

THIS is the UK GDP figures ...

http://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom-uk-since-2000/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom-uk-since-2000/)

http://www.statista.com/statistics/188105/annual-gdp-of-the-united-states-since-1990/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/188105/annual-gdp-of-the-united-states-since-1990/)

Check out 2009..

I've been to Canada recently for a day which makes me an expert on all things Canadian. If you have any questions about the Canadian way of life, just ask me. :rolleyes:




I expect you were on a holiday  - rather than investigating were to open offices / employ folks  -  you can't even do 'smart'

:rolleyes:

I KEEP asking about your investments - as I've been sat on my arse watching screens that mean my preaching on 'Trampu's' stupidity and putting my money were my mouth is ..well it's paying off ...

You carry on with your 'patriotic bollox' - you can visit the soup kitchens and offer sympathy and remind those that lost their jobs how much you supported them and it is all the fault of those  nasty Japs, Canadians, Europeans, Chinese .......  ANYTHING other than waking up and realising history is repeating itself
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 25, 2018, 12:57:27 PM

BiilyB - honestly I DO NOT KNOW - how to interpret data..  let's play ..

THIS is the UK GDP figures ...

http://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom-uk-since-2000/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom-uk-since-2000/)

http://www.statista.com/statistics/188105/annual-gdp-of-the-united-states-since-1990/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/188105/annual-gdp-of-the-united-states-since-1990/)


Your websites won't give a source name. It's unreliable data as far as I'm concerned. Website below says source is coming from the World Bank. UK's GDP went down big time from 2014 to 2016. Some of your fellow citizens lost faith in the EU. You and your leaders failure to realize the problems and address the concerns of the opposing parties and citizens has led to Brexit. You think fellow citizens concerns were not valid and believe the vote was going to go your way. You and your party risked it and now lost it all. How many more years of whining do we have to listen to?

http://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp

Most young people voted to remain ... I expect they will get us back in


No, those young people won't get you back in because they'll get old. Most young people in America are liberal and vote Democrat. As they get older they get wiser and they vote differently. Your youngsters will change their minds eventually to something you aren't going to like since you haven't grown up. If they don't wise up, God help the UK.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 25, 2018, 07:33:53 PM
BillyB is right Mobers, when I was young back in the 90s I supported the EU. However along the way the EU changed the positive stuff it brought began to be outweighed by the negative. The EU started making more & more bad decisions. It became more & more ego driven and less practically focused.

Myself I spent more time in the world outside the cosy late teen early twenties student uni scene and came up against more of the realities of life inside the EU just as they started making some of the worst mistakes they have made, namely allowing former eastern bloc population to flood into the UK jobs & housing market. Now apparently Poland is allowed to solve the problem they git with a lack of worker by allowing in loads of Ukrainians to work illegally to which the EU turn a blind eye. So the EU allow unmanaged illegal chaos to alleviate the problems that it has caused.

Like BillyB correctly says though, those young people & students that aren't exposed to the realitis of life will become so and their attitudes will soon change. People generally vote towards which side of the bread is buttered best for them. A student may well be more concerned about Erasumus programme, hob nobbing it abroad and getting all chummy with foreign peers, spending a bit of time out there doing this, that or the other usually non serious activity.

Come post uni and post travelling and time they want to settle down & get a good job & house many will see that they are marginaliased in favour of their Polish counterparts. Largely because their Polish counterparts will work like anything to get the better pay than in Poland which is worth more to them than it is to an English person who does not travel back to a cheaper currency country.

They will change their mind, they'll see that Brexit has helped stop the country being overwhelmed with hordes more east Europeans and they will see the benefits of Brexit. That we are no longer the EU's bitch having to cowtow to everything they tell us and be treated like an unimportant back waterhole are country has the life & wealth sucked out of it by the EU. We will no longer have anyone yelling us what to do and talking down to us like the EU do. We will have our independence to develop as we like to be free and able to breath again without being shackled up as just another EU member of no significance. I personally can't wait now for us to leave :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 25, 2018, 08:32:16 PM
Trench

This is the first of your daft posts of the day, I assume ?

You'll remember Mrs May said she was in favour of remaining (v. quietly ) and grabbed her chance to be leader ?

The Labour opposition has been trappist - because they are allowing the Tories to war in public ...  at least one knows where individual Tories stand ...

I don't trust many Politicians as they are more worried about their pensions

Well without either of the two big main parties supporting Remain it looks like there is little support left for the Remain camp in Parliament  :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 11:27:25 PM
Your websites won't give a source name. It's unreliable data as far as I'm concerned.

The first post of the day I've read from you and a new 'excuse'  :D

I'm sorry if the CIA didn't agree with your 'data'..... 


 Website below says source is coming from the World Bank.
http://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp

I'm sorry, BillyB - "I don't trust your source" ;)

Here the UK's very own Office for National Stats info :

http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pgdp (http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pgdp)

Do us a fav and find that 'dip' of yours ....



No, those young people won't get you back in because they'll get old. Most young people in America are liberal and vote Democrat. As they get older they get wiser and they vote differently. Your youngsters will change their minds eventually to something you aren't going to like since you haven't grown up. If they don't wise up, God help the UK.

Actually, BillyB - As I've got older - and traveled - seen the perspective of my nations ( UK / IRL) abroad I've got much wiser ...  Older voters in the UK tended to vote 'leave' on the basis of 'less immigration' and 'believing the National Health Service would be better funded'...  and that Britain would be 'greater'

 The young saw that stopping EU citizens having freedom of movement was short sighted and confining for their career paths..  Reading what my kids post - you don't get their anger ...  at what has been done in 'their name' by elder people who will be relying on them to clear up the mess they created ... 2 years on the divide here is bitter and they'll be around longer to put it right
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 11:30:31 PM
Well without either of the two big main parties supporting Remain it looks like there is little support left for the Remain camp in Parliament  :D

Trench,

I know thinking is your weak point - based on how you analyse ladies - esp after being around 'em this long ... but you STILL don't get it ...

Labour are sitting back and letting the Tories tear themselves apart .... and what matters is what is agreed with the EU...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2018, 11:43:30 PM
BillyB is right Mobers, when I was young back in the 90s I supported the EU. However along the way the EU changed the positive stuff it brought began to be outweighed by the negative. The EU started making more & more bad decisions. It became more & more ego driven and less practically focused.


You aren't categorised as young - that's 18-30...  REmind us how they voted ... ? REMAIN


Like BillyB correctly says though, those young people & students that aren't exposed to the realitis of life will become so and their attitudes will soon change. People generally vote towards which side of the bread is buttered best for them. A student may well be more concerned about Erasumus programme, hob nobbing it abroad and getting all chummy with foreign peers, spending a bit of time out there doing this, that or the other usually non serious activity.


Trench, one of my daughters finished Uni some time ago and the other - bless - is working AND studying - hard - as her attitude improved - as to what is needed to get on ...

They both speak a second language and travel widely - they understand that money doesn't grow on trees

Whilst I realise we are using examples of how we were or my daughters - you ignore that fact that REMAIN is still widely supported by younger, brighter people and they are v.angry with older people ..

You'd better pray you are right - as I can see Trench still working when 70 - as UK PLC will shove up the pensions age as we won't be able to live as well - thanks to - leaving the EU ..

The young will be undoing the stupidity / naivety of folks like you

They will change their mind, they'll see that Brexit has helped stop the country being overwhelmed with hordes more east Europeans and they will see the benefits of Brexit.

The Hordes - like Poles who are leaving ?- being replaced with Romanians and Bulgarians who are grateful for the work ... (  ...already shortages of labour in rural areas ?  Lazy Brits won't work as hard



Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 26, 2018, 04:39:54 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44615245?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

Read it and weep Mobers :D

EU Withdrawal Act :clapping:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 26, 2018, 04:58:47 AM
The irony is YOU didn't read your own link

"The legislation enables EU law to be transferred into UK law in an attempt to ensure a smooth Brexit."

You're quite the hoot
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2018, 07:33:50 AM
Here the UK's very own Office for National Stats info :

http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pgdp (http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pgdp)


UK website is using chain volume methods for calculating GDP which leave out inflation and deflation factors. The World Bank uses deflation and inflation factors in calculating nation's GDP. UK's GDP took a big dive from 2014 to 2016. Ignoring the problems within you nation has led you to ignore your fellow citizens when they were screaming for some changes. Do you hear them now?

Read it and weep Mobers :D


We've already endured two years of whining. Please do not ask for more.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 26, 2018, 08:12:42 AM
We've already endured two years of whining. Please do not ask for more.

Quite, there is that I guess, Lol
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 26, 2018, 09:24:55 AM

You aren't categorised as young - that's 18-30...  REmind us how they voted ... ? REMAIN


Trench, one of my daughters finished Uni some time ago and the other - bless - is working AND studying - hard - as her attitude improved - as to what is needed to get on ...

They both speak a second language and travel widely - they understand that money doesn't grow on trees

Whilst I realise we are using examples of how we were or my daughters - you ignore that fact that REMAIN is still widely supported by younger, brighter people and they are v.angry with older people ..

You'd better pray you are right - as I can see Trench still working when 70 - as UK PLC will shove up the pensions age as we won't be able to live as well - thanks to - leaving the EU ..

The young will be undoing the stupidity / naivety of folks like you

The Hordes - like Poles who are leaving ?- being replaced with Romanians and Bulgarians who are grateful for the work ... (  ...already shortages of labour in rural areas ?  Lazy Brits won't work as hard

Problem is Mobers everyone get the same idea, they nearly all started working and studying hard to get on. Result they all end up in fierce competition with each other for the jobs. The result of course is that the employer gets a big pool of eager young bucks to choose from that will work hard for way under what the worth of their labour is really worth just to get the career jobs. Everyone is playing at the same game and extremely few actually win at it. The US may be a little different as they have to take the risk of the burden of expensive student loans that they have to pay back, even still I have heard many young people in the US have been asking is it worth it since so many flood into the uni's anyway that there is an oversupply of graduates there too, say in Law, etc.

Add a lot of East Europeans willing to work their socks off and heavily compete with the English population you have the perfect storm of mass oversupply of labour in virtually all industry sectors willing to work for peanuts in heavy  competition with each other. So ask yourself is your daughter really going to get on in this environment? or just heavily compete for low paid highly skilled jobs. 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 26, 2018, 10:01:16 AM
#Swexit? All is not well in one of the most liberal countries in Europe.

From the article:

Quote
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A surge in gang violence has stirred anti-immigration sentiment before an election in Sweden, putting a far-right party on course for big gains in one of Europe's most liberal countries.

Dozens of people have been killed in the past two years in attacks in the capital Stockholm and other big cities by gangs that are mostly from run-down suburbs dominated by immigrants.

In the latest bloodshed, three men were shot dead and three were wounded outside an internet cafe in the city of Malmo on June 18. A fourth man was shot dead days later and another man survived because he was wearing a bullet-proof vest.

With public calls growing for tougher policies on crime and immigration, support has risen for the Sweden Democrats, a party with neo-Nazi roots that wants to freeze immigration and to hold a referendum on Sweden's membership of the European Union.

Their worried mainstream rivals have started moving to the right on crime and immigration to try to counter the Sweden Democrats' threat in the Sept. 9 election. But so far, they are playing into the hands of the far-right.

"Right now they (mainstream parties) are competing over who can set out the most restrictive policies," said Deputy Prime Minister Isabella Lovin, whose Green Party is part of a minority government led by the Social Democratic Party.

"It clearly benefits the Sweden Democrats."

In 2015 after the Swedish government encouraged mass immigration Sweden saw more than 160,000 mostly male African and Middle Eastern immigrants arrive to claim asylum. Sweden is a country of about 10,000,000. IOW if all 160,000+ asylum seekers were granted asylum Sweden would have increased its population by 1.6% in one year with the admission of the asylum seekers.

It's not hard to understand why Sweden put the brakes on accepting massive numbers of asylum seekers. If this policy had continued Sweden's demographics would have been irrevocably changed within 20-30 years.

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-06-26/swedens-far-right-eyes-election-gains-as-gang-violence-rises
http://www.migrationsverket.se/download/18.7c00d8e6143101d166d1aab/
1485556214938/Inkomna%20ans%C3%B6kningar%20om%20asyl%202015%20-%20Applications%20for%20asylum%20received%202015.pdf
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2018, 10:51:18 AM

Some people have said if those growing up in the American ghetto were growing up in their country, they would act differently. I always believed some cultures are more violent than others and it's in the genes more than the environment they grew up in.

Most of the terrorists in Europe grew up or were born in Europe since it was their parents that immigrated. With the latest wave of immigrants, Europe can again test the theory that the environment they provide people will make them civilized.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 26, 2018, 12:11:28 PM
UK website is using chain volume methods for calculating GDP which leave out inflation and deflation factors.

..and where did you get THAT 'info' ...? Silly, BillyB ?

 "A chained volume series is a series of economic data (such as GDP, GNP or similar kinds of data) from successive years, put in real (or constant, i.e., inflation- and deflation-adjusted) terms by computing the production volume for each year in the prices of the preceding year, and then 'chain linking' the data together to obtain a time-series of production figures from which the effects of price changes (i.e., monetary inflation or deflation) have, at least in theory, been removed. In other words, from the raw GDP or GNP data, which reflect changes in both production volume and prices, a series is obtained which reflects only production volume."

Do you 'get it' ?  The data is MORE accurate ...

Most EU States, the majority of  western capital countries - USA, Canada, EEA nations like - Norway, Switzerland use the chain-linking method to the GDP constant price calculations.

NO dip, BillyB ...    Did you check the US GDP based on the same methodology ? I suppose that was Obama's fault ;)



Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2018, 01:12:42 PM
..and where did you get THAT 'info' ...? Silly, BillyB ?

 

You can Google the chain volume method for info to get a good understanding. You should've used those GDP charts with the chain volume method to show your fellow citizens how well the UK was doing being in the EU. The problem with your choice in methods for GDP is that it also shows a continued increase of GDP after the vote for Brexit which means it contradicts your belief the sky is falling in the UK.

You have lots of faith in the EU. Do you think the British Empire could've accomplished much more if the EU were available to join back then?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 26, 2018, 01:39:17 PM
 :cluebat:
You can Google the chain volume method for info to get a good understanding. You should've used those GDP charts with the chain volume method to show your fellow citizens how well the UK was doing being in the EU. The problem with your choice in methods for GDP is that it also shows a continued increase of GDP after the vote for Brexit which means it contradicts your belief the sky is falling in the UK. [/quote]

Silly BillyB

Do you not remember me telling you that I prefer using GDP per capita - as a more accurate indicator ? In THAT case one can CLEARLY see that the UK PLC WAS affected by the vote and subsequent uncertainty ...You DO know that even our own - largely pro Brexit govt - can admit what you won't ?

Thanks, I can use Google and you are deflecting as you know the US showed a dip - it was on the up before Trampu could claim it was his policies  :D

You have lots of faith in the EU. Do you think the British Empire could've accomplished much more if the EU were available to join back then?

I have more faith in UK PLC's future within the EU than without

Your second question is just daft ...The Empire was long gone before ... It's like me asking you if you weren't born would the world be a better place ?

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 26, 2018, 01:54:34 PM
#Swexit? All is not well in one of the most liberal countries in Europe.

From the article:

In 2015 after the Swedish government encouraged mass immigration Sweden saw more than 160,000 mostly male African and Middle Eastern immigrants arrive to claim asylum. Sweden is a country of about 10,000,000. IOW if all 160,000+ asylum seekers were granted asylum Sweden would have increased its population by 1.6% in one year with the admission of the asylum seekers.


Sweden didn't encourage mass migration.  They received asylum seekers after Merkel encouraged refugees.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 26, 2018, 02:10:29 PM

Sweden didn't encourage mass migration.  They received asylum seekers after Merkel encouraged refugees.

From your own CBC.

Quote
In Skaik's case, he has been living just outside the Swedish city of Norrkoping for 16 months now, having chosen to make his way to Sweden before the government announced its decision in September to offer blanket asylum and permanent residency.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bastion-of-tolerance-sweden-opens-wide-for-syria-s-refugees-1.2508166

Merkel vigorously encouraging migration to Germany certainly didn't help however Sweden went too far with their blanket asylum and permanent residency. With the large numbers of migrants arriving in Sweden, Sweden was forced to limit the numbers or Sweden wouldn't be Sweden in 20-30 years.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 26, 2018, 02:14:27 PM
Sweden’s policy remained in place, unamended.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 26, 2018, 02:44:35 PM
Sweden’s policy remained in place, unamended.

Sweden's immigration policy changed dramatically. From the video:

Quote
The Greens’ deputy prime minister, Åsa Romson, breaks into tears as she announces measures to deter asylum seekers in a reversal of Sweden’s open-door policy towards people fleeing war and persecution. ‘This is a terrible decision,’ she said later, admitting that the proposals would make life even more precarious for refugees.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/nov/24/asa-romson-sweden-deputy-prime-minister-cries-announcing-refugee-u-turn-video
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on June 26, 2018, 02:48:11 PM
But that was after they’d let in 160,000 migrants. It changed because they can’t even house them all, let alone integrate them. Sweden didn’t encourage the migrants to arrive.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 26, 2018, 03:03:01 PM
But that was after they’d let in 160,000 migrants. It changed because they can’t even house them all, let alone integrate them. Sweden didn’t encourage the migrants to arrive.

Correct. Sweden couldn't house, educate, employ, teach them Swedish, etc  those who arrived. Sweden then realized many, many more would arrive if allowed to settle in Sweden. The 160,000 would be just a trickle compared to the flood that would arrive.

After all the Middle East and Africa was and still is home to many hundreds of millions of people living in deplorable conditions. If given the chance how many do you think would move to Sweden? Obviously Sweden did the calculations and decided they simply couldn't accommodate the millions that would likely arrive.

Germany is a lot bigger than Sweden in numbers and many Germans think the same, that's why Merkel is having the problems she's currently facing.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 27, 2018, 12:09:39 AM
So,

What should the EU do - sink the boats trying to cross the Med ? ... 

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2018, 12:45:14 AM
So,

What should the EU do - sink the boats trying to cross the Med ? ...

Absolutely :D Those people have no respect for a country's border & immigration system.

All European nations should do as Trump is suggesting with illegal immigrants and dump them straight back in their own country. No court cases or expensive asylum stays with which to punish the taxpayers. We know that they have broken said country's immigration law so we should dump them immediately back where they came from. It's what we used to do and what always worked in the past before we went soft and let ourselves be told that we should let illegal immigrants walk all over us.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on June 27, 2018, 12:49:03 AM
Absolutely :D Those people have no respect for a country's border & immigration system.

These people are usually the toughest and smartest .. risking their lives ... 


All European nations should do as Trump is suggesting with illegal immigrants and dump them straight back in their own country. No court cases or expensive asylum stays with which to punish the taxpayers. We know that they have broken said country's immigration law so we should dump them immediately back where they came from. It's what we used to do and what always worked in the past before we went soft and let ourselves be told that we should let illegal immigrants walk all over us.

But they HAVEN'T broken a law by being rescued at sea / pitching up at the border and claiming asylum - HAVE they ?

More clueless Trench

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2018, 06:00:23 AM
These people are usually the toughest and smartest .. risking their lives ... 


But they HAVEN'T broken a law by being rescued at sea / pitching up at the border and claiming asylum - HAVE they ?

More clueless Trench

We should simply ban anyone from claiming Asylum, it's clear that it is being abused as a method of immigration into a country. At least in its present form Asylum does not work. For some peculiar reason once here we have to feed them,  house them and give them education - the cost to the taxpayer of all that is ridiculous. Then after all of that we find they have used another work around to stay permentaly in the country, Asylum my arse!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on June 27, 2018, 11:33:24 AM
So,

What should the EU do - sink the boats trying to cross the Med ? ...

The population of Africa is somewhere close to 1.5 billion. Add in the Middle East and some of the worst places in parts of Asia and that's well over 2 billion people who would love to live in Europe. The population of Europe is only about 750 million. That means the UK wouldn't be the UK anymore. Same with most countries in Europe. The demographics would be forever changed.

Future generations in the UK might be speaking Swahili or Amharic, two of the more common African languages. Or perhaps Arabic. Maybe a couple of the Asian languages such as Hindi/Urdu or Bengali would be official languages in the UK.

Americans and Europeans, such as yourself, seem to have white guilt over being successful. This isn't the case in most other parts of the world. The Gulf States will not admit the asylum seekers from Africa and their neighboring states in the Arab world, even those who are Muslim. Yes, many of the Gulf States are filled with foreigners such as Filipinos however those people are there on work permits that have strict conditions. They will never be able to get citizenship in any of Gulf States except maybe through marriage. Note too that while international organizations are pressing European nations to admit more refugees they are not asking the same of the Gulf States. These organizations know that would be a lost cause. The organizations get some money out of the Gulf States however pledges to admit tens of thousands of refugees are not going to happen. BTW even the financial assistance from these states is not equal to what the west provides so the Gulf States are not exactly generous with their aid. Look at Saudi Arabia on the list below, only $18,065,880, less than Finland.

China, Japan, Korea and other Asian nations allow very few asylum seekers in and are not at all generous with financial aid. Take a look at where China is on the list below. One of the largest economies in the world and they contribute less than Ireland. Again they are not being pressed by international organizations to admit more refugees because these organizations know that would be a lost cause. That leaves the west, Europe, Canada, the US, Australia, NZ and a few other countries.

How to solve the problem? I don't know. What I do know is that not only are criminal organizations actively involved in sending refugees to Europe because it is profitable so are aid groups such as Mission Lifeline. Over the next few decades this could easily lead to Europe having a few hundred million refugees arriving from some of the worst places on Earth. Of course I could be overly optimistic and the totals could be 2 or 3 times higher, or more.  :o 

http://www.unhcr.org/5954c4257.html
Title: EU Issues
Post by: ML on June 27, 2018, 11:50:21 AM
I took an International Economics course several decades ago.

The Professor turned out to be correct when he told us:  "In future, the biggest problem will not be East vs West; it will be North vs South."

At that time, I didn't really think much about what this problem would be and I don't think he explained it either.  Don't know if he was referring to migration, or something else.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2018, 08:20:59 PM
either.  Don't know if he was referring to migration, or something else.


He was talking about migration AND something else. You see, when the next Ice Age rolls around and it gets cold, President Donald Trump XCVIII will build a wall to keep the illegal immigrants out that are pouring down from Canada. Due to the cold, America's farms will not grow crops well. Hundreds of millions will go hungry and die without a solution. Mexico's policy towards illegal immigration isn't very friendly because it separates American parents from their kids. This violates all values we hold dear since Americans are civilized and don't play that game anymore since 2018. President Donald Trump XCVIII has no choice and orders the US Army to scale that damn historical wall built by President Donald Trump to invade Mexico where the land is better suited for farming. That's exactly what your professor was talking about.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 06, 2018, 06:20:45 PM
Mobe, you mean this ;D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44747444?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

Well essentiallying the majority of the cabinet are behind this 'facilitated customs arrangement'. It mirrors what I said would probably happen regarding people movement, that for visiting/tourism we will be able to come & go freely and vice versa but for work or study EU citizens would have to apply and similarly vice versa.

Essentially the UK would be able to strike it's own trade deals.

I think if the points outlined are stuck to and we don't end up with it creeping towards a customs union then it could well work.

It also depends on the EU accepting it, some of it they will but some of it they may take issue with, the EU being the EU. It would be a shame for them to get all awkward over it though and of course I could see them doing that as I don't think they really know what negotiation is but rather we dictate you follow end off. Which of course is the attitude that has landed them in the sorry messes they are now in.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2018, 01:00:38 AM
Poor Trench

Now you can see that another of my prophesies has become reality

Mrs May told her boys to toe the line in her very soft Brexit stance and they are resigning.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 09, 2018, 08:56:32 AM
Mrs May told her boys to toe the line in her very soft Brexit stance and they are resigning.


May refuses to Brexit accordingly to the will of the people. She want's to do a soft Brexit. Boris Johnson and David Davis are the latest ministers to resign in protest. Soon she may have to resign or get booted out if she can't get the job done right.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/no-reluctant-conscript-brexit-minister-quits-blow-britains-031654739.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
May refuses to Brexit accordingly to the will of the people.

There's our BillyB - on his once daily mission to prove his hasn't a scooble do about what goes on outside his boundary fence

As the referendum was VERY imprecise - your version of 'reality' as to what any one voting brexit actually wanted is pure fiction

Example: My Aunt, Uncle and at least one 'coz voted to leave

BUT... They did not want a hard brexit - one that meant a customs / immigration control on the Northern Ireland border  ...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 09, 2018, 11:50:30 AM
Poor Trench

Now you can see that another of my prophesies has become reality

Mrs May told her boys to toe the line in her very soft Brexit stance and they are resigning.

It's not at all a very soft Brexit stance because it:

- Abolishes Freedom of Movement.
- Allows us to make our own Trade Deals.
- Means we would be an Independent Nation again.

There is a clear gap between this and what Remainers in the Labour Party want, a customs union that abandons these three main points and many others - that is very soft Brexit or more to the point not Brexit at all.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 10, 2018, 12:20:16 AM
Notice Mobes has not replied on this, no doubt has realised that Brexit is now deliverable :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 11, 2018, 04:32:19 PM
Trench, you ARE a soft lad

'Mobes' is on hols with S and has FAR better things to do that mock your inability to read the news and realise the game is up ..

The UK govt has to make a deal with the EU and the DUP - as I KEEP telling you - will not allow a hard brexit

ALL the Tories are doing are ensuring they will not govern with a majority  - if at all

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 12, 2018, 08:49:05 AM
Trench, you ARE a soft lad

'Mobes' is on hols with S and has FAR better things to do that mock your inability to read the news and realise the game is up ..

The UK govt has to make a deal with the EU and the DUP - as I KEEP telling you - will not allow a hard brexit

ALL the Tories are doing are ensuring they will not govern with a majority  - if at all

Really, I'm sure I spotted you on the news the other day outside the Houses of Parliment all dressed up in EU colours and face paint shouting out 'Stop Brex.i..t' behind the reporter, Lol. One of those Nutters ;D

Well the white paper is out today it says:

'Businesses should be able to move “their talented people” from the UK to the European Union – and vice versa – after Brexit, according to the government’s strategy white paper which was published amid chaotic scenes in the Commons.

The document also says the government is prepared to allow EU citizens to travel freely without a visa in the UK for tourism and temporary work and allow EU students to study in the UK.'

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-white-paper-seeks-free-114813874.html


So like I said before removing free movement in its entirety and scaling it back to something more reasonable and responsible. It should also stop the default access for EU citizens to settle here as a matter of course so that if someone really wants to be here they will have to put in a bit of effort rather than just turn up. Should help slow down the over population problem we are experiencing in the UK at present.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2018, 02:48:57 AM
Trench

You are a guy the recives a salary...not one that pays them...

You keep on proving that your brain hurts when economics are involved

The ehite paper sucks as it fails to adequately reassure those biz that require frictionless trade and movement of employees..think service industries

I know the penny takes longer to drop for you.

Now we may leave the EU with NO say in the rules ...

'GREAT PLAN'....
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 14, 2018, 12:22:37 AM
Trench

You are a guy the recives a salary...not one that pays them...

You keep on proving that your brain hurts when economics are involved

The ehite paper sucks as it fails to adequately reassure those biz that require frictionless trade and movement of employees..think service industries

I know the penny takes longer to drop for you.

Now we may leave the EU with NO say in the rules ...

'GREAT PLAN'....

Mobe, I'm the one that does the work that ensures the Employer gets the money to pay me my salary. End of the day I am going to look at it from my perspective an Employer from theirs.

If a load of East Europeans turn up as they have done and take up a lot of the housing and jobs I am not going to care one iota if leaving the EU impacts my Employer in some way, if their is some negative economic impact on them. My concern is in protecting my interests not looking out for my Employers interests which go against my interests if they are pro Remain.

My concern is that immigration is slowed, even partially reversed, that I keep hold off my job and at a decent wage and it not come under threat by a horde of Immigrants. If I have children it is to look out for their interests in not losing out in the jobs market to a horde of Immigrants or getting low pay despite working hard and being highly educated/skilled. Also that adequate housing is available for them. This concern would extend to my siblings, nephew & nieces and fellow British workers who are essentially in a similar boat to me.

In any case it has been made clear that any impediment to the service industry in the EU will be far offset by the UK being able to strike trade deals with other countries do keep up Mobers ;)

The US in Trump's visit to the UK yesterday stated they want to do a trade deal with the UK - this could be huge for the UK and you would pass over on that for some impediment on services with the EU, it's nothing in comparison.

I do of course wish to extract myself from income dependant on working for an Employer to securing my own independent income as soon as I can in the future. Working for an Employer offers no financial security, even a gut in a good income can find himself out of a job and suddenly heading to poverty tomorrow which of course is not good on this search.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 14, 2018, 06:10:34 AM
Mobe, I'm the one that does the work that ensures the Employer gets the money to pay me my salary. End of the day I am going to look at it from my perspective an Employer from theirs.

YOU are replaceable- be it by a EU citizen or a machine - installed by the employer ;)   


If a load of East Europeans turn up as they have done and take up a lot of the housing and jobs I am not going to care one iota if leaving the EU impacts my Employer in some way, if their is some negative economic impact on them.

Oh, you WILL if the employer goes somewhere else ... Which they WILL


My concern is that immigration is slowed, even partially reversed, that I keep hold off my job and at a decent wage and it not come under threat by a horde of Immigrants. If I have children it is to look out for their interests in not losing out in the jobs market to a horde of Immigrants or getting low pay despite working hard and being highly educated/skilled. Also that adequate housing is available for them. This concern would extend to my siblings, nephew & nieces and fellow British workers who are essentially in a similar boat to me.

In any case it has been made clear that any impediment to the service industry in the EU will be far offset by the UK being able to strike trade deals with other countries do keep up Mobers ;)

Deals with WHO ?... This is the sort of bollox you leavers lap up and demonstrate cluelessness


The US in Trump's visit to the UK yesterday stated they want to do a trade deal with the UK - this could be huge for the UK and you would pass over on that for some impediment on services with the EU, it's nothing in comparison.

'Of course' - they do and they want a private piece of the action re healthcare, etc.  Jeez you just don't get it ...

You want to leave a club  - THE biggest trading group - with whom we have seamless trade - to 'do a deal' with the US ? ...  And how many times less is that trade ?   

ALL because you are a lazy RACIST - doing enough to get by and being a tight wad with a lass on a date ;)

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 14, 2018, 01:46:15 PM
ALL because you are a lazy RACIST - doing enough to get by and being a tight wad with a lass on a date ;)

Lazy? Says he who is on yet another holiday with he's other half in so many weeks, lol ::)

If your working week was anything like mine Mobe you'lld soon be laid up in hospital with cramp ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 14, 2018, 08:42:42 PM
Lazy? Says he who is on yet another holiday with he's other half in so many weeks, lol ::)

If your working week was anything like mine Mobe you'lld soon be laid up in hospital with cramp ;D

Trech,

When I was in my early 50's I worked 14 hours a day - 7 days a week - to try and save a biz being destroyed by a financial institution's incompetence...   since compensated for..

I seriously doubt you'd have survived ...

Interesting that you are more 'upset' at being referred to as 'lazy', and never bothered to defend the racist label...

I can only presume you agree that jobs are being LOST not created in this foolish vision of Britain you had ( have) ,,,,,
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 14, 2018, 10:00:20 PM
If your working week was anything like mine Mobe you'lld soon be laid up in hospital with cramp ;D

Maybe give your preferred hand a rest.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 15, 2018, 04:10:48 AM
But that was after they’d let in 160,000 migrants. It changed because they can’t even house them all, let alone integrate them. Sweden didn’t encourage the migrants to arrive.

I call bs on that statement, the pull factor of a lifetime of free welfare and benefits, permanent residence (carte Blanche to all coming from Syria), a very lenient asylum process overall.
That can never be understated this is what made immigrants make this long journey. Why else choose the most northern country, far far away from your own culture, your own language, your own religion.

70-80% of all immigrants that arrived in 2015-2016 are economical immigrants and should be deported back to where ever they came from. The small trickle of real refugees that arrived, they are more then welcome to stay.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 15, 2018, 04:17:11 AM
So,

What should the EU do - sink the boats trying to cross the Med ? ...

No but turn them back to where they came from, right now all these "rescue ships" are doing the human smugglers work, picking up boats right off the coast of Libya and ferrying them to Europe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbIc1LZqIAw
 
Italy has closed their ports, finally.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 15, 2018, 06:18:32 AM
Interesting that you are more 'upset' at being referred to as 'lazy', and never bothered to defend the racist label...

Ah, the usual attack on Leavers as racists, well Im not going to back down for fear of this label, that would be weakness.

The truth is it is British workers that have worked and fought to have the wealthy nairon we have here and the fruits of that labour British workers and people should benefit as a result. Not allow a load of East Europeans in to pilfer our jobs, housing, benefits and health services from us and our children. This is not something I'm going to stand aside meekily and let them satisfy themselves for fear of being labelled 'racist'. I don't care about being called racist, far preferably to sitting back without work, housing, etc while the East Europeans laugh at me being belittled by being concerned about being racist.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on July 15, 2018, 12:04:10 PM
I call bs on that statement, the pull factor of a lifetime of free welfare and benefits, permanent residence (carte Blanche to all coming from Syria), a very lenient asylum process overall.
That can never be understated this is what made immigrants make this long journey. Why else choose the most northern country, far far away from your own culture, your own language, your own religion.

70-80% of all immigrants that arrived in 2015-2016 are economical immigrants and should be deported back to where ever they came from. The small trickle of real refugees that arrived, they are more then welcome to stay.


No Swedish leader encouraged asylum seekers to leave their countries.  Failing to remove them is a different issue.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 16, 2018, 06:17:47 PM
Well Mobe, another Remoan defeat :D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44854597

Brexiteers carried the day with the support of three Labour rebels no less. Exactly as I told you would happen in such a situation. Looks like the customs union crowd just don't have the numbers in Parliament to pass anything to get a customs union through. Well turn of the Trade Bill today, looks like this will be another Remoan thrashing :D Enjoy the day Mobers ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 16, 2018, 06:32:43 PM
Well Mobe, another Remoan defeat :D

 Enjoy the day Mobers ;D

I think Moby is going to be missing for a few more days hoping people will by then forget the fact he forgot where he met his wife. Any man who forgot where he met his wife should be embarrassed. Could be Alzheimer's.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 16, 2018, 11:55:24 PM
I think Moby is going to be missing for a few more days hoping people will by then forget the fact he forgot where he met his wife. Any man who forgot where he met his wife should be embarrassed. Could be Alzheimer's.

No one will be able to tell Billy as he will just keep repeating the same arguments either way :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 17, 2018, 06:53:08 AM

No Swedish leader encouraged asylum seekers to leave their countries.  Failing to remove them is a different issue.

In this matter you know next to nothing, don't try to master me in Swedish internal politics, you will loose that battle every time.
That is exactly what they did with government officials handing out pamphlets on the shores of Italy and surrounding Islands in 2015 .. and with information on our embassy websites - even written in Arabic - about what a refugee could expect to get once they arrived in Sweden.

here is one Swedish newspaper reporting about it. It's in Swedish but use google translate and you get the picture.
http://www.di.se/ledare/pm-nilsson-bidrag-ar-fel-satt-att-marknadsfora-sverige/

so you want to tell me again, Swedish leadership did nothing to encourage "refugees" to come to Sweden?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on July 17, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
Those actions were not carried out in the countries the asylum seekers left. 

The top ten countries from which those landing in Italy come from are, in order, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Gambia, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire, Guinea, Mali, Ghana, and Eritrea.  Only Eritrea is an unsafe country in this list, and it's not at war.  It is repressive.  Individuals from these countries will not qualify as asylum seekers.  How many asylum seekers from these listed countries have had their claims for refugee status approved in Sweden?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 17, 2018, 10:13:03 AM
Those actions were not carried out in the countries the asylum seekers left. 

The top ten countries from which those landing in Italy come from are, in order, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Gambia, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire, Guinea, Mali, Ghana, and Eritrea.  Only Eritrea is an unsafe country in this list, and it's not at war.  It is repressive.  Individuals from these countries will not qualify as asylum seekers.  How many asylum seekers from these listed countries have had their claims for refugee status approved in Sweden?

Italy was not the only place as I said, we had officials in Cyprus and Turkey to doing the same thing, everywhere that refugees emerged, we sent government officials, is this Particularly hard for you to understand, that my government did a lot to offer a pull factor for people to make their way here?

I never said they where in the countries they came from, but do you think smugglers and mainly many of the refugees with their Iphone's could not call home and tell all their friends about this refugee heaven called Sweden (and Germany for that matter)

Now you are just being silly and foolishly naive with those kind of statements. Again, don't try to lecture ME on Swedish politics, you might be a educated woman, but you aint that educated.
I live here, you don't (just ask your husband if your hesitating about that fact)


top 15 - 2015
http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik/Oversikter-och-statistik-fran-tidigare-ar/2015.html
SYRIEN      51 338
AFGHANISTAN   41 564
IRAK              20 857
STATSLÖS      7 711
ERITREA      7 231
SOMALIA      5 465
IRAN              4 560
ALBANIEN      2 615
KOSOVO      1 779
ETIOPIEN      1 715
UKRAINA      1 405
MONGOLIET   1 152
SERBIEN      1 053
UNDER INVESTIGATION       918
MAROCKO      906
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 17, 2018, 12:05:20 PM
A lot of bitching going on here :D Might I suggest we get back to the business of upsetting Mobers ;D

Well, Remoaners have just suffered another defeat with the UK Trade Bill passing in the commons crucially defeating the customs union amendment 307 votes to 301 votes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44864496?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

So by six votes the amendment to push the UK into a customs union was defeated :) With four Labour rebels this time siding with the government to help defeat the amendment, as predicted Mobers ;)

So it looks like that will be Remoaners last chance to push the UK back into the EU against its will. There is still the vote on the overall deal struck with the EU to vote on when it comes through but I can't see the Remain crowd defeating that if they have failed to make any headway to date. The Lords seeing all attempts to push for a customs union fail are likely to rubber stamp these bills I believe which would be good news. While the EU seeing that there is not enough support in the Commons for a Customs Union is likely to do a deal or risk a complete break away by the UK and its economic implications of recieving no money payback and trade tariffs. So it's all starting to shape up nicely I think :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on July 17, 2018, 12:29:51 PM
Italy was not the only place as I said, we had officials in Cyprus and Turkey to doing the same thing, everywhere that refugees emerged, we sent government officials, is this Particularly hard for you to understand, that my government did a lot to offer a pull factor for people to make their way here?

I never said they where in the countries they came from, but do you think smugglers and mainly many of the refugees with their Iphone's could not call home and tell all their friends about this refugee heaven called Sweden (and Germany for that matter)

Now you are just being silly and foolishly naive with those kind of statements. Again, don't try to lecture ME on Swedish politics, you might be a educated woman, but you aint that educated.
I live here, you don't (just ask your husband if your hesitating about that fact)


top 15 - 2015
http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik/Oversikter-och-statistik-fran-tidigare-ar/2015.html
SYRIEN      51 338
AFGHANISTAN   41 564
IRAK              20 857
STATSLÖS      7 711
ERITREA      7 231
SOMALIA      5 465
IRAN              4 560
ALBANIEN      2 615
KOSOVO      1 779
ETIOPIEN      1 715
UKRAINA      1 405
MONGOLIET   1 152
SERBIEN      1 053
UNDER INVESTIGATION       918
MAROCKO      906

Nightwish your country and Germany are the two European countries that must share the blame for this flood of migrants from not only Africa but also from the Middle East and southern Asia. Sweden and Germany publicly said they'd take in Syrians refugees. What did your governments think would happen? Someone in a sh*th*le country like Somalia hears that rich European countries such as Sweden and Germany are going to take in Syrian refugees of course they're going to try to get to Sweden and Germany. It's human nature.

It is therefore Sweden and Germany that not only should be taking the migrants in but paying the costs to countries like Italy, Spain, Greece and others that have deal with migrants.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 17, 2018, 12:38:30 PM
Nightwish your country and Germany are the two European countries that must share the blame for this flood of migrants from not only Africa but also from the Middle East and southern Asia. Sweden and Germany publicly said they'd take in Syrians refugees. What did your governments think would happen? Someone in a sh*th*le country like Somalia hears that rich European countries such as Sweden and Germany are going to take in Syrian refugees of course they're going to try to get to Sweden and Germany. It's human nature.

It is therefore Sweden and Germany that not only should be taking the migrants in but paying the costs to countries like Italy, Spain, Greece and others that have deal with migrants.

I do not disagree, and we do pay for it in a indirect way with our shitty EU membership :)

(http://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/c_fill,f_auto,q_auto:eco,w_1700/http://inews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2JunEUcontribsFINALweb-1.jpg)

(http://www.murphyindustrialproducts.com/media/magpleasure/mpblog/upload/b/4/b449821a18c4f1527d4f569842d7b2c9.png)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 17, 2018, 01:30:21 PM

One thing to worry about is the kids of the immigrants. 15-20 years from now you may see a wave of terrorist acts like we've seen recently in Europe done mostly by the kids of immigrants. Seems like the parents aren't teaching to embrace the culture they're living in and possibly teaching their kids to resent the culture that they grew up in.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on July 17, 2018, 04:41:25 PM
Italy was not the only place as I said, we had officials in Cyprus and Turkey to doing the same thing, everywhere that refugees emerged, we sent government officials, is this Particularly hard for you to understand, that my government did a lot to offer a pull factor for people to make their way here?

I don't think there was a pull factor, or more accurately, an unruly pull factor, until Angela Merkel stated Germany would welcome all refugees.

My post stated that Sweden didn't send government officials to the asylum seekers' countries.  I think it's a very different thing if they hand out information.
Quote


I never said they where in the countries they came from, but do you think smugglers and mainly many of the refugees with their Iphone's could not call home and tell all their friends about this refugee heaven called Sweden (and Germany for that matter)

But is it a refugee haven if they are deported?  The Eritrean who murdered two Swedes did so because his refugee claim had been denied.  The process is flawed because of the failure to deport failed claimants on a timely basis, but what do they gain if they aren't working, and owe thousands of dollars to people smugglers?

Quote
Now you are just being silly and foolishly naive with those kind of statements. Again, don't try to lecture ME on Swedish politics, you might be a educated woman, but you aint that educated.
I live here, you don't

I'm not lecturing you.  Your point, as I understand it, is that Sweden encouraged refugees to flood the country.  My assertion is, they didn't do that.  Merkel did.  Sweden was caught in the after effect of the flood caused by Merkel's invitation.  If you are correct, then please show me where Sweden sent government officials, or even NGO's with government funding, to Syria, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or even to countries from where asylum seekers are rarely accepted, such as Eritrea, Nigeria, Somalia, etc, with information on claiming refugee status.   

I'm not arguing that northern countries are not the desired destinations for asylum seekers, they are, because of the generous benefits and tolerance they provide.  That is a separate issue, and that in and of itself likely is a draw. But Sweden did not create the crisis.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 17, 2018, 05:03:00 PM

Sweden's Embassy in Syria homepage

http://www.swedenabroad.se/en/embassies/syria-damaskus/

Page for protection and asylum seekers

http://www.swedenabroad.se/en/about-sweden-non-swedish-citizens/syria/

How to apply for asylum and can be read in Arabic below. I checked a few Swedish embassy pages from other nations that Nightwish mentioned that had a lot of asylum seekers and those embassy websites lead to the site below too. If I were an immigrant looking for a better life, Sweden does seem like they're more welcoming than other nations.

http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden.html


Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 18, 2018, 05:35:25 AM
http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/obtaining-asylum-united-states

To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.


USCIS immigration information in Arabic:  http://www.uscis.gov/tools/multilingual-resource-center/arabic

Asylum instructions from USCIS site in Arabic:
http://tinyurl.com/y9wmefsr

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr

assistance programs and availability for refugees in Arabic http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/asyleeeligibility_arabic.pdf



Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2018, 07:20:14 AM
To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.



You don't need to be in Sweden to apply for asylum. They've created an easier path to get into their country.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on July 18, 2018, 08:59:26 AM

Quote
It is not possible to apply for asylum before you get to Sweden.
http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/Applying-for-asylum/How-to-apply-for-asylum.html
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2018, 09:27:22 AM
Quote
You need to be in Sweden or at the Swedish border to apply for asylum in this country.

The only exception is for quota refugees who can apply for asylum via UNHCR in another country.


http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/Applying-for-asylum.html

Your link states when an immigrant is at the border, border police at passport control will then refer them to the Migrant agency. Welcome to Sweden!

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on July 18, 2018, 09:51:39 AM
This is how asylum works in every country.   You have to present yourself at the border.


Over 30,000 individuals have claimed asylum at the Canadian border, entering from the US.  The illegal immigrants and the children torn from them by US officials largely claimed asylum at the US border. 


Refugees, who are recognized as refugees by the UN, can apply to countries to be accepted as refugees outside the country.  But they can be denied entry on those applications as well.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: jone on July 18, 2018, 10:07:43 AM
This is how asylum works in every country.   You have to present yourself at the border.


Over 30,000 individuals have claimed asylum at the Canadian border, entering from the US.  The illegal immigrants and the children torn from them by US officials largely claimed asylum at the US border. 


Refugees, who are recognized as refugees by the UN, can apply to countries to be accepted as refugees outside the country.  But they can be denied entry on those applications as well.

No.  In the United States, there are few immigrants who present themselves for asylum and millions of illegal immigrants who sneak through the border knowing that they have no chance for asylum.  It is these illegals who are the great majority of border crossers, not asylum seekers.  When they are caught, they then claim asylum, but traditionally are just thrown back across the border.  Your post totally underplays the problem we have in the United States.  But not being from the US, we can expect that from you.  In Los Angeles, alone, we have over a million illegal aliens who have crossed into the United States illegally.

If the US could control all people who come to the US and make them apply for asylum, then it would be permissible to have the discussion about who gets in and who doesn't. 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2018, 10:38:02 AM
In the United States, there are few immigrants who present themselves for asylum and millions of illegal immigrants who sneak through the border knowing that they have no chance for asylum.


That is true. One can claim policies between nations pertaining to asylum aren't much different from each other but there is a clear difference on how easy or hard it is to claim asylum between nations. Syrian and other immigrants aren't stupid. They know one of their best chances to be approved for asylum in Europe is in Sweden.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Nightwish on July 18, 2018, 02:50:56 PM
I don't think there was a pull factor, or more accurately, an unruly pull factor, until Angela Merkel stated Germany would welcome all refugees.

My post stated that Sweden didn't send government officials to the asylum seekers' countries.  I think it's a very different thing if they hand out information.
No you didn't?  This is your original post I replied to:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22788.msg486479#msg486479
Quote
But that was after they’d let in 160,000 migrants. It changed because they can’t even house them all, let alone integrate them. Sweden didn’t encourage the migrants to arrive.
Bad memory?
Quote
But is it a refugee haven if they are deported?  The Eritrean who murdered two Swedes did so because his refugee claim had been denied.  The process is flawed because of the failure to deport failed claimants on a timely basis, but what do they gain if they aren't working, and owe thousands of dollars to people smugglers?

I'm not lecturing you.
I disagree, but that is a non important fact.

We have more then 80 000 illegal immigrants here (that we know of) people that have been declined asylum and gone underground, we can't deport them because our Government has tied the police's hands behind their back.
Latest fun article is a Afghan who cried so much on the plane they had to take him off the plane again.  :clapping:
http://nyheteridag.se/35-arig-afghan-grat-hejdlost-pa-planet-till-kabul-slapp-utvisning/ (http://nyheteridag.se/35-arig-afghan-grat-hejdlost-pa-planet-till-kabul-slapp-utvisning/)

Quote
Your point, as I understand it, is that Sweden encouraged refugees to flood the country.  My assertion is, they didn't do that.  Merkel did.  Sweden was caught in the after effect of the flood caused by Merkel's invitation.  If you are correct, then please show me where Sweden sent government officials, or even NGO's with government funding, to Syria, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or even to countries from where asylum seekers are rarely accepted, such as Eritrea, Nigeria, Somalia, etc, with information on claiming refugee status.
 
Sweden was the FIRST country to tell all Syrians, just come come here and receive Permanent residence on arrival!  NO temporary and almost no background checks was done.
It was announced everywhere on the old embassy pages, those have since our government viewpoint changed somewhat, been revised and that information has been removed.

Here you have another article about our coastguard in the Mediterranean (Coastguard is as you might know, supplied by the government)  doing the NGO boats work.
http://www.kustbevakningen.se/frontex/operation-triton3/nyheter-operation-triton/kustbevakningen-forstarker-sin-narvaro-i-medelhavet/

In all other I refer to the article I linked and the information so Billy easily found.
I can't right now find the articles about our officials from State department that was sent to hand out information about Sweden on the shores of Italy, Turkey and Greece, there have been too much buzz in the news since then, don't really know what to search for to get a match.
But in in counter-effect to that, the Swedish democrats sent people to tell refugees NOT to come to Sweden
http://omni.se/sd-delar-ut-flygblad-pa-ett-20-tal-hemliga-platser/a/0b72160f-2459-40e1-8f93-03ac88bae9ed

Merkel might have done some shitty things to, but I don't follow German politics so I can't say. I just know the articles in the press when they announced as the first country we were prepared to accept all coming from Syria and give them permanent residence.

and once again - We had no officials IN those countries to my knowledge, never claimed that, that was never needed, the information reached the "refugees" anyway.

Quote

I'm not arguing that northern countries are not the desired destinations for asylum seekers, they are, because of the generous benefits and tolerance they provide.  That is a separate issue, and that in and of itself likely is a draw. But Sweden did not create the crisis.
Sweden was a big part of creating this crisis, why else did the thousands of refugees stand on the border of Romania, Hungary and Balkan states chanting - "Sweden Sweden, let us go, we want to go to Sweden"
(as I am sure also happened with Germany as preferred choice)

again, I refer to what many experts here have talked about for 2-3 years, we had an enormous pull-factor on these people to seek out Sweden as their new heaven with all the promises about benefits and everything being "free".  Key word here - Pull factor.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 18, 2018, 10:34:53 PM
I notice Mobers has gone like Zippy of Rainbow on this thread, zip firmly drawn across mouth! lol :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 19, 2018, 12:37:33 AM
You just ain't too attentive..

Holiday, sun, SC v correcting your bollox ....

Hardly a contest
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 19, 2018, 04:02:55 AM
Mobe you know for Remain to push through their desire to impose a customs union on us they actually have to win a vote along the way somewhere. At the moment they have lost one vote after another. So despite what you've said in the past its looking like Brexit will be going through :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 19, 2018, 05:35:39 AM
Mobe you know for Remain to push through their desire to impose a customs union on us they actually have to win a vote along the way somewhere. At the moment they have lost one vote after another. So despite what you've said in the past its looking like Brexit will be going through :)

This is v.hard for you, clearly


The UK has to NEGOTIATE with the EU and as I keep telling you the Irish border Q WILL arise...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 19, 2018, 09:05:32 AM
This is v.hard for you, clearly


The UK has to NEGOTIATE with the EU and as I keep twlling you the Irish borxer Q WILL arise...

Ah, still clinging to that one hey Mobers. I'm guessing with the new Brexit secretary an agreement will now be reached on that. The EU seem to fear a no deal scenario so I think they will accept the solution proposed by the UK. It's all happening now on that front so not long to wait and prove you wrong once again Mobers ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 19, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
Ah, still clinging to that one hey Mobers. I'm guessing with the new Brexit secretary an agreement will now be reached on that. The EU seem to fear a no deal scenario so I think they will accept the solution proposed by the UK. It's all happening now on that front so not long to wait and prove you wrong once again Mobers ;D

The EU don't need to fear a no deal solution as far as the UK is concerned ... they only care about Ireland ..

I am 'clinging' to that one as I KNOW it is the key
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 19, 2018, 03:15:34 PM
The EU don't need to fear a no deal solution as far as the UK is concerned ... they only care about Ireland ..

I am 'clinging' to that one as I KNOW it is the key

Well the Gov reckon they can deal with goods etc crossing the border without needing to stop anyone/checkpoints by use of technology, agreements/schemes, and reconcilin the VAT due at a later date through an accounting system.

I'm guessing if they must be confident it will work to press on in this direction. Stuff like the London congestion charging scheme and the continuing immersion of technology on our everyday lives suggests they will be able to pull it off if decent effort, thought and testing of the system are gone into.

They've already satisfied the DUP as to no hard border so there is little left to be a problem unless of course the EU decide on no deal to try and force the UK back in the Union but that I think will backfire on them badly. Both the majority of the population & House of Commons are against such happening.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 19, 2018, 07:55:55 PM
Well the Gov reckon they can deal with goods etc crossing the border without needing to stop anyone/checkpoints by use of technology, agreements/schemes, and reconcilin the VAT due at a later date through an accounting system.

You mean Boris and co ? ))

I wonder if they'll reveal how many BILLIONS worse off we'd be - having to pay for all the kit, civil servants...  ?

ALL the fun and game within the Tory party are just that.... THe EU have again pointed out that the UK cannot pick and choose which parts of EU embership it wants to keep - if laving

Lastly, the DUP KNOW that the maj. of N.Ireland folk voted to REMAIN and will think of THEIR political future

You just aren't thinking - at all
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 19, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
You mean Boris and co ? ))

I wonder if they'll reveal how many BILLIONS worse off we'd be - having to pay for all the kit, civil servants...  ?

ALL the fun and game within the Tory party are just that.... THe EU have again pointed out that the UK cannot pick and choose which parts of EU embership it wants to keep - if laving

Lastly, the DUP KNOW that the maj. of N.Ireland folk voted to REMAIN and will think of THEIR political future

You just aren't thinking - at all

It of course won't cost Billions don't be ridiculous, a computerised system can be set up and ran a lot cheaper than that, you are getting carried away.

The UK is not picking and choosing, it's a trade deal they are striking and agreements to continue to work on cetrain stuff together for mutual benefit. That and s deal on travel & visa access for both sides post Brexit.

I think we will have to wait and see whether the EU accept this or go all rigid & awkward. If they won't negotiate then we will he in new territory and it's whole thing will blow open again. I don't think that will be helpful to anyone. The EU look like they could now be open to sorting out the remaining areas outstanding. With a new Brexit secretary there is less of a block to this happening. I think by the end of Autumn we will know one way or the other. I hope you have that humble pie all ready for you to the a big bite Mobers ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 19, 2018, 08:47:06 PM
It of course won't cost Billions don't be ridiculous, a computerised system can be set up and ran a lot cheaper than that, you are getting carried away.

I see you selectively choose to ignore news you don't want to hear / don't understand about 'Brexit'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/brexit-vote-cost-uk-mark-carney-bank-of-england (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/brexit-vote-cost-uk-mark-carney-bank-of-england)

Brexit vote has cost each UK household £900, says Mark Carney

That's already BILLIONS .... 

You DO know that 'we' are taking on more civil servants to pay for this farce ?

The UK is not picking and choosing, it's a trade deal they are striking and agreements to continue to work on cetrain stuff together for mutual benefit. That and s deal on travel & visa access for both sides post Brexit.

It's not just a trade deal....  It's about migration control, complying to new standards in trade / non trade related matters ..


I think we will have to wait and see whether the EU accept this or go all rigid & awkward. If they won't negotiate then we will he in new territory and it's whole thing will blow open again. I don't think that will be helpful to anyone. The EU look like they could now be open to sorting out the remaining areas outstanding. With a new Brexit secretary there is less of a block to this happening. I think by the end of Autumn we will know one way or the other. I hope you have that humble pie all ready for you to the a big bite Mobers ;D

No matter who represents the UK, the FACT is that 'The UK cannot pick and choose which parts of EU membership it wishes to retain'  are the words of EU officials, other nations MEPs and leaders of other EU nations ...it is a constant that 'leavers' ignore at their peril

You clearly missed that when we leave the EU in March 2019 - that nothing is going to change - as v.little has been agreed  - We have a transition period until the end of 2020.

IF 'we' crash out without a deal ....  YOU will see how this daftness effects you in your pocket ..I'll be long gone ...exercising my right of freedom of movement as an Irish Passport holder
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 20, 2018, 05:29:40 AM
Ah, no loyalty to the UK hey Mobe, the slightest little bit of trouble sends you packing with your Polish sweat shop labour ;D It's why we need people here who won't up and run at the slightest sign of trouble.

Well Mark Carney is a Remoaner and the biggest twit going. He couldn't even predict the way interest rates in the UK would move ever since he took office. He constantly predicts they will move one way only to subsequently be proved wrong each time by low inflation rates etc that completely stump him. He is just another Remoaner trying to frighten people back into the EU.

I definitely think we should see what's beyond rather than acting like a frightened child. It's the only way anyone grows, learns and develops. We could find ourselves being in a fortunate position on all of this. We could end up with a global trading Empire rather than being a backwater country constantly bring sucked dry of our wealth by the EU.

Remember Mobe, the EU is building up debt all the time through paying expensive pensions to it's top crowd. How long before it as an organisation ends up like Greece going past the point of no return and calling on members to sort our it's horrendous debt problem.

I think we are safer not putting all out eggs on one basket by trading with many not the few. I think we are safer not u der the heel of EU politicing. I don't care about 'seats at tables' the EU is one table we do not want a seat at. They are a knightmare to work with and we will happily not need a seat at a table of an organisation we are not part off. They can make all the rules they like then, we will not be subject to them. If they try and make a trade Ryle or other not in our favour we can just walk off, we will be independent and not tied to them. The power of being independent I think you will come to find Mobe is greater than a seat at a table with an organisation that knows you haven't got the walk away card to play.

The EU say we can't pick and choose, well they will soon have to decide what they are or not willing to agree to. They hold out that line to try to hold us to ransom to make it more difficult to leave. End of the day never let someone hold you to ransom, they do so because they are always the weaker party, walk away and grow stronger.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 20, 2018, 09:45:10 PM
Ah, no loyalty to the UK hey Mobe, the slightest little bit of trouble sends you packing with your Polish sweat shop labour ;D It's why we need people here who won't up and run at the slightest sign of trouble.

'Loyalty'?  Patriotism is a foolish notion ... Home is where the heart is as far as I'm concerned...   I will go where I can ensure colleagues can work and be allowed to travel freely - THAT doesn't look like being the UK and you'll find I'm not alone in voting with my feet

Well Mark Carney is a Remoaner and the biggest twit going. He couldn't even predict the way interest rates in the UK would move ever since he took office. He constantly predicts they will move one way only to subsequently be proved wrong each time by low inflation rates etc that completely stump him. He is just another Remoaner trying to frighten people back into the EU.


'Funny' that the govt doesn't replace him... and it is noted that you didn't 'bust' his point how much wrse we are off, already .....It was based on ...UK stats from UK govt agencies

We could find ourselves being in a fortunate position on all of this. We could end up with a global trading Empire rather than being a backwater country constantly bring sucked dry of our wealth by the EU.

Only economic incompetents could post such drivel - bearing in mind we have NO trade deals set up, yet and our biggest trading partner is .... fellow EU members ,,and being in the club - with a seat got us great deals with a powerful hand .....  Only deluded, chest-beating 'patriots' think being alone will mean 'better'

Remember Mobe, the EU is building up debt all the time through paying expensive pensions to it's top crowd. How long before it as an organisation ends up like Greece going past the point of no return and calling on members to sort our it's horrendous debt problem.

We don't know how much debt - as it doesn't publish accounts - which is bad .... so how do you know ...another Trench 'guess' ?  We've seen how accurate they are ;)

I think

NO..you don't ...

we are safer not putting all out eggs on one basket by trading with many not the few.

What utter twaddle... with whom doesn't the EU have trade deals, already ?


 
The EU say we can't pick and choose, well they will soon have to decide what they are or not willing to agree to. They hold out that line to try to hold us to ransom to make it more difficult to leave. End of the day never let someone hold you to ransom, they do so because they are always the weaker party, walk away and grow stronger.

Sorry, 'Trench' - but you can't play card games ...  'WE'..the UK are holding a shyte hand and the EU know it
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 21, 2018, 12:41:45 AM
The EU say we can't pick and choose, well they will soon have to decide what they are or not willing to agree to. They hold out that line to try to hold us to ransom to make it more difficult to leave. End of the day never let someone hold you to ransom, they do so because they are always the weaker party, walk away and grow stronger.

What bs..  No one forced UK into EU, no one is forcing UK out or holding anyone ransom.  Reality is that UK brexiting or not is UK's choice or maybe better said choice of the ruling party in UK.  Even after whatever form of brexit occurs, UK will be welcomed back into EU, the door will be kept open regardless.

Want free trade after brexit?  work for it, pay for it with lots of time and money.  EU free trade just expanded to include Japan after 5 or so years of negotiations which is really record time to reach an agreement.. what.. 28 countries now have the benefits of free trade with Japan in one swoop?  Direct access to one third of the world's economy? Think UK will be able to do it in less time and spending (better said losing) quite a few quid in the meantime?

at risk with brexit?

(http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/eu-japan-in-your-town/img/info_united-kingdom_en.jpg)

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/eu-japan-in-your-town/united-kingdom_en.htm

Bottom line, EU is not just going to give away freebies for brexit after doing all the legwork and paying for it.  The advantages are clear.. take for example EMA, UK is losing it's status as headquarters and moving out of London to Amsterdam..  result so far, Government is required to make continued UK participation in the EU medicines regulatory network partnership a negotiating objective in talks with the EU.  Tell me how losing HQ, a thousand jobs, then continuing to pay to play is a plus for UK with brexit...  then having to go down on knees and plead with EU to even allow such..

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/990972/Brexit-latest-news-european-medicines-agency-EMA-Theresa-May-parliament-votes

If you see dirt flying out of a deep hole, judge whomever is holding the shovel...  clearly it's UK holding the brexit shovel and not EU.

In the end, I think all of UK will one day realize the size of the hole that has been dug.  When the walls of sand start crumbling back in the hole and political parties inevitably change, the UK will have a new referendum and will rejoin freely. It'll all be chalked up as a very expensive lesson in humility.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 21, 2018, 02:38:59 AM
+loads
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 22, 2018, 07:02:46 AM
What bs..  No one forced UK into EU, no one is forcing UK out or holding anyone ransom.  Reality is that UK brexiting or not is UK's choice or maybe better said choice of the ruling party in UK.  Even after whatever form of brexit occurs, UK will be welcomed back into EU, the door will be kept open regardless.

Want free trade after brexit?  work for it, pay for it with lots of time and money.  EU free trade just expanded to include Japan after 5 or so years of negotiations which is really record time to reach an agreement.. what.. 28 countries now have the benefits of free trade with Japan in one swoop?  Direct access to one third of the world's economy? Think UK will be able to do it in less time and spending (better said losing) quite a few quid in the meantime?

at risk with brexit?

(http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/eu-japan-in-your-town/img/info_united-kingdom_en.jpg)

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/eu-japan-in-your-town/united-kingdom_en.htm

Bottom line, EU is not just going to give away freebies for brexit after doing all the legwork and paying for it.  The advantages are clear.. take for example EMA, UK is losing it's status as headquarters and moving out of London to Amsterdam..  result so far, Government is required to make continued UK participation in the EU medicines regulatory network partnership a negotiating objective in talks with the EU.  Tell me how losing HQ, a thousand jobs, then continuing to pay to play is a plus for UK with brexit...  then having to go down on knees and plead with EU to even allow such..

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/990972/Brexit-latest-news-european-medicines-agency-EMA-Theresa-May-parliament-votes

If you see dirt flying out of a deep hole, judge whomever is holding the shovel...  clearly it's UK holding the brexit shovel and not EU.

In the end, I think all of UK will one day realize the size of the hole that has been dug.  When the walls of sand start crumbling back in the hole and political parties inevitably change, the UK will have a new referendum and will rejoin freely. It'll all be chalked up as a very expensive lesson in humility.

BC you have got your facts wrong. The UK originally voted to join the EEC in a referendum back in the 70s. The UK never voted to join the EU or accept the EEC change into the EU in any referendum. The UK only ever wanted to be part of a EEC it never wanted to be a part of the EU.

The EEC and EU are completely different, the EEC was just a free trade association for European countries, it did not extend into government, it did not extend into 'Freedom of Movement' etc.

The UK Trade Bill that has recently been passed in the House of Commons deals with putting/replicating all of the EU's free trade agreements with other countries such as Japan and Canada, etc and adopting them ourselves. So it won't take any time after all as we will continue with the same agreements as before.

I believe the EU's days are numbered, many countries and their citizens are getting fed up with it. It's also a cash hungry organisation and this will only get worser over time proving to its members that it's more of a burden az time goes on. I think eventually it will be replaced by something closer to the EEC or split into a two tier organisation western side of Europe in the tip tier, eastern side of Europe in the bottom.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 22, 2018, 07:10:51 AM
+loads

Well if you're at all bored Mobes this may wake you up.

Sitting in me pad this morning an electoral register letter popped through the door. Now of course I'm already down on the register as on the form. So it looks like it's the electoral roll check form they send out before local and General Elections! So looks like the government may be preparing for the eventuality to jettison the DUP and go for hard Brexit.

Looks like if the EU don't budge we will be having another General Election very soon Mobers. Date for return of form is 10th August so gives a good idea of when I think.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 22, 2018, 09:12:50 AM
Well if you're at all bored Mobes this may wake you up.

Sitting in me pad this morning an electoral register letter popped through the door.

...and ?

Are you SO unaware of the cycle for checking you're still at the same address ? 

It has NOTHING to do with any election

Another Trench DUH   

BC you have got your facts wrong.

NO ..he hasn't what you write below is your OPINION

The UK originally voted to join the EEC in a referendum back in the 70s. The UK never voted to join the EU or accept the EEC change into the EU in any referendum.


The UK only ever wanted to be part of a EEC it never wanted to be a part of the EU.

You don't speak for me



The UK Trade Bill that has recently been passed in the House of Commons deals with putting/replicating all of the EU's free trade agreements with other countries such as Japan and Canada, etc and adopting them ourselves. So it won't take any time after all as we will continue with the same agreements as before.

You utter moron ...  such deals much be accepted by Japan and Canada

I believe the EU's days are numbered


Based on your other theories we can be sure the EU will be around a while longer than us ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 22, 2018, 10:37:15 AM
Mobe, the only time they tend to check is before actual electoral events or perceived electoral possibly occurring. Even before General Elections are announced they try to send them out in anticipation of one to get it all sorted early. It's pointless for them to do it otherwise as they generally get informed of people moving in/out.

Look at the news it's all about the UK starting to make preparations in the event of no deal.

The rest is not my opinion - we had no referendum to join the EU/change from the EEC at its inception, that is a fact.

The UK Trade Bill speaks for itself whatever you think, that is what the Trade Bill says.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 22, 2018, 06:17:13 PM
Trench,

I DID tell you ..

An annual canvass is sent out to ensure the Electoral role is accurate :

EVERYONE gets such a letter EVERY year

It has NOTHING to do with 'chance' of a general election or even a second 'Brexit' vote to decide how we might leave and on what terms

Why don't you ring your local district council and they'll put you straight

Trench - I understood that there was o vote on the EEC becoming the EU ... I stated as to what happened after was only your opinion and bolded the text that was bollox.



Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 22, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
BC you have got your facts wrong.

There is absolutely nothing inconsistent with fact regarding my statement.

Quote
The UK originally voted to join the EEC in a referendum back in the 70s. The UK never voted to join the EU or accept the EEC change into the EU in any referendum. The UK only ever wanted to be part of a EEC it never wanted to be a part of the EU.

Then why did the UK ratify the Lisbon Treaty?  Was the UK not afforded several opt-outs to prior and current agreements?  Sounds like an internal problem and not EU holding UK hostage for something you did not agree to.  Instead of blaming EU for all your ails, you should look instead to your own institutions and government.  Therein lies the source of all your 'problems' so no need to point a finger elsewhere in frustration.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BillyB on July 22, 2018, 09:34:47 PM

BC or Sandro if you're reading, what do you think about more anti EU politicians in Italy being voted into power this year? Is Italy headed towards an Italexit?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/21/fresh-alarm-italy-apostles-italexit-take-control-parliament/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 23, 2018, 12:18:47 AM
There is absolutely nothing inconsistent with fact regarding my statement.

Then why did the UK ratify the Lisbon Treaty?  Was the UK not afforded several opt-outs to prior and current agreements?  Sounds like an internal problem and not EU holding UK hostage for something you did not agree to.  Instead of blaming EU for all your ails, you should look instead to your own institutions and government.  Therein lies the source of all your 'problems' so no need to point a finger elsewhere in frustration.

The British public never ratified the Lisbon Treaty, Tony Blair did. Unlike the Republic of Ireland the UK was denied a referendum on ratifying the Lisbon Treaty. If we did the British Public would have voted against it, Tony Blair knew that and so the entirely undemocratic step was taken to deny the British Public a vote on the matter. It's where the EU lost its charade of exposing democratic values as one of its jet principles as it too went along with Blair knowing they lacked the necessary support for it in the UK. It was the same politics as Robert Mugabe of circumventing democracy, if you can't win a vote you don't give a vote. I think the EU lost a lot of credibility in the UK because of that so long term turned more people against the EU.

Hell, the EU couldn't even win the referendum for the  Lisbon Treaty in the Republic of Ireland - it lost the vote then the undemocratic move was made to disregard and disrespect the will of the people by asking the Irish to vote again on the matter just weeks after the original vote. Utterly arrogant and belittling attitude from the EU and the Irish government. It's why an Irexit could be on the cards in the near future.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 23, 2018, 07:55:35 AM
Trench,

As stated, all internal issues.  Deal with it.

Sounds like you been drinking too much whine ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 25, 2018, 06:10:30 AM
Well here's a good article on the Labour rebel MP's voting with the government to get its Brexit legislation through Parliament:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44952098?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

As we see if they voted against the government, the government would not have got its Brexit legislation through. There assistance is how I stated that the Gov would get their Brexit legislation through even if Remain elements within the Tory party voted against their own government's Brexit legislation.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 25, 2018, 09:02:04 PM
STILL proving to be as daft about 'Brexit' as dating?

1/ Did you miss how much longer 'EU rules' will apply when 'we' officially 'leave'.....?  Great news...

2/ Once again you take no account of the result if/ when the DUP dump Mrs May....if she tries to change procedures at the Irish border .... game over))
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 25, 2018, 11:59:11 PM
STILL proving to be as daft about 'Brexit' as dating?

1/ Did you miss how much longer 'EU rules' will apply when 'we' officially 'leave'.....?  Great news...

2/ Once again you take no account of the result if/ when the DUP dump Mrs May....if she tries to change procedures at the Irish border .... game over))

Well I won't mind about the odd bit of runover of this or that, it will be a lot less to put up with from the EU than at present. Main thing is their influence will be reduced to a far more manageable and less annoying level.

End of the day it will be Theresa who dumps the DUP by calling a General Election if it gets to that point. She knows where they stand and what she has to do in the given event. The DUP for their part don't want a hard border or a customs union so they must know there is only so much room for movement between the two.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 26, 2018, 02:23:50 AM
Always, you prove you don't have a clue by what you write.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 26, 2018, 02:54:14 AM
Always, you prove you don't have a clue by what you write.

Whose been proven wrong on this so far :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 26, 2018, 05:59:01 AM
Whose been proven wrong on this so far :D

YOU.. but all those resignations and the govt in a terminal nose dive and YOU don't get it ...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 26, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
Well, Mrs May's "I've taken control" didn't last long..

Her 'compromise' to keep a frictionless Irish / N.I. border was rejected by the Brextremists AND the EU

Don't worry, Trenchie ..I know it always takes you a while to get things ...

Once more, N.Ireland will not agree to being treated differently than the rest of the UK and there has to be a friction-less border ..

With 1 DUP MP suspended until November and Mrs May knowing she must keep the DUP onside - your numbers are soon not going to add up ...


Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 27, 2018, 08:25:15 AM
Well, Mrs May's "I've taken control" didn't last long..

Her 'compromise' to keep a frictionless Irish / N.I. border was rejected by the Brextremists AND the EU

Don't worry, Trenchie ..I know it always takes you a while to get things ...

Once more, N.Ireland will not agree to being treated differently than the rest of the UK and there has to be a friction-less border ..

With 1 DUP MP suspended until November and Mrs May knowing she must keep the DUP onside - your numbers are soon not going to add up ...

Still not enough Mobers, the 3-4 or so Labour MP's that vote with the Government will still take them over the threshold. Meanwhile, the Hoe is facing a deselection attempt by Labour Remoaners:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44979281 

Still won't matter as she'll keep her seat until there is a General Election and no doubt she is looking to retire soon anyway.

I don't know where you get your information on the Irish border situation, no doubt from traitorous pro-Remain sources ;D

That's all a lot of back and forth discussion that will continue for the next few months most likely, definitely throughout August at the very least. If its all looking south by the end of August and no progress seems possible then yes Theresa will likely call a General Election to press the ejector seat button on the DUP. She's highly unlikely to allow the DUP to vote her out in a no confidence vote as it will make her look weak, she'll call a General Election before that happens, unless of course it looks politically expedient/better in a given situation for her to let the DUP to do so, so she can say she had no other choice.

I can't see Remoaners winning this battle though Mobe, a lot of the main legislation needed has been passed already so we are already a long way down the road and Remoaners always seem to lack the numbers and support in the country for their agenda :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 27, 2018, 09:37:54 PM
Still not enough Mobers, the 3-4 or so Labour MP's that vote with the Government will still take them over the threshold. Meanwhile, the Hoe is facing a deselection attempt by Labour Remoaners:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44979281 

Still won't matter as she'll keep her seat until there is a General Election and no doubt she is looking to retire soon anyway.

As bad with arithmetics as you are with social engaging....   Nothing in your article suggests I am wrong ...

Think... the govt won one vote by only SIX votes .... If the DUP move over ....

Penny dropping, yet ?

'We' may be leaving - but it won't be for long ..

Tick, Tock
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 28, 2018, 02:25:57 AM
As bad with arithmetics as you are with social engaging....   Nothing in your article suggests I am wrong ...

Think... the govt won one vote by only SIX votes .... If the DUP move over ....

Penny dropping, yet ?

'We' may be leaving - but it won't be for long ..

Tick, Tock

This would rely on the government's EU negotiations failing. If the did Mah would have no choice other than the tariff version of hard Brexit. So likely a General Election. Who do you think would win that General Election?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 28, 2018, 03:26:14 AM
This would rely on the government's EU negotiations failing. If the did Mah would have no choice other than the tariff version of hard Brexit. So likely a General Election. Who do you think would win that General Election?

You go from daftness to STUPIDITY

1/  First of all your arithmetic  as to the make up of the current Parliament was found wanting and

2/ I would NOT give the Tories another chance unless they expel the Euro-sceptic 'bastards' so disliked by John Major

3/ My hope is that a new Centrist Party will form and kick Labour and the Tories collective asses into obscurity


and we can ask the EU to take us back
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 28, 2018, 04:39:48 AM
You go from daftness to STUPIDITY

1/  First of all your arithmetic  as to the make up of the current Parliament was found wanting and

2/ I would NOT give the Tories another chance unless they expel the Euro-sceptic 'bastards' so disliked by John Major

3/ My hope is that a new Centrist Party will form and kick Labour and the Tories collective asses into obscurity


and we can ask the EU to take us back

1). Theresa has so far won the votes in Parliament needed to get legislation through, despite what you said.

2). Those Euroskeptics are now more numerous in the Tory party than under John Major. Without them Theresa would far far short of a majority in Parliament either undwe the current government or a new one. Plus by any knock back of the Brexiteers will result in a resurgence of UKIP a problem in that they take votes and seats away from the Tories and also for Labour as well.

3). Yes you mean the new Centrist Party that Vince Cable & Tim Farron were so eager to form they missed the crucial Commons vote and looked even more discredited as a result, lol. They could and attract a fair number of MP's from both Tories and Labour but I doubt they would ever have enough from either party before or after a General Election - Many Remoaners will still stick to party loyalty particularly if they are looking long term if it looks like the whole Brexit thing mah be wrapped up and matters move on - they are not going want being adrift in an increasingly irrelevant EU huggers party where they risk losing their safe seats :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 28, 2018, 05:09:01 AM
1). Theresa has so far won the votes in Parliament needed to get legislation through, despite what you said.


I 'missed' the EU negotiator agreeing...

2). Those Euroskeptics are now more numerous in the Tory party than under John Major. Without them Theresa would far far short of a majority in Parliament either undwe the current government or a new one. Plus by any knock back of the Brexiteers will result in a resurgence of UKIP a problem in that they take votes and seats away from the Tories and also for Labour as well.

TM hasn't GOT a majority .... Hence her need to rely on a party that could ultimately bring he down

3). Yes you mean the new Centrist Party that Vince Cable & Tim Farron were so eager to form t

Did I mention the LibDems ...?

Do keep up Trenchie, your Brextremists are going to get you asses kicked
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on July 28, 2018, 05:19:22 AM
Trench,

you speak as if UK is the only one faced with decisions.  You are leaving out half of the equation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-european-parliament-veto-deal-theresa-may-irish-border-a8466406.html

So far not up to EU par.

I highly suspect, faced with dwindling timeline and lack of progress that either:

UK proposes an extension which will be granted
or/and(if nothing is accomplished during an extension)
UK, out of breath decide that it's not worth the pain to go through with Brexit and remains.

I give very low chances for a 'hard' Brexit and even if so, things will go so far south so quickly with unforeseen consequences that UK takes the EU offer of returning to the Union and starts working to repair the damage done.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 28, 2018, 06:00:42 AM
Trench,

you speak as if UK is the only one faced with decisions.  You are leaving out half of the equation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-european-parliament-veto-deal-theresa-may-irish-border-a8466406.html

So far not up to EU par.

I highly suspect, faced with dwindling timeline and lack of progress that either:

UK proposes an extension which will be granted
or/and(if nothing is accomplished during an extension)
UK, out of breath decide that it's not worth the pain to go through with Brexit and remains.

I give very low chances for a 'hard' Brexit and even if so, things will go so far south so quickly with unforeseen consequences that UK takes the EU offer of returning to the Union and starts working to repair the damage done.

That would be a bad move BC, there is no way the UK will be returning to the EU it would most likely kick start a Civil War in the UK. The EU is ardently hated by a large segment of the population in the UK. That the problem idiots trying to subvert the democratic process in Remain Labour didn't understand. They can't go behind voters backs and get the thing sewn up with the Lords or the EU to their desire. This would insense Leave voters like no other, they are no being clever but extremely reckless every time they do this or push for votes in Parliament to vote against Brexit legislation. Fortunately a small number of Labour MP's with wisdom of their age and reponsibility as mentioned previously,  Kate Heoy, Frank Field, etc vote with the Government to avoid the turmoil that voting against the government would cause. They do not wish to tear the country apart and realose there is more a stake than trying to defeat the government in a short termist agenda.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 28, 2018, 07:16:21 AM
That would be a bad move BC, there is no way the UK will be returning to the EU

Unfortunately, our Trench is not aware that folks are waking up to the reality of 'our' govt' making a mess of 'Brexit' ...

Judging by the polls, anyway
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 28, 2018, 11:09:02 AM
Unfortunately, our Trench is not aware that folks are waking up to the reality of 'our' govt' making a mess of 'Brexit' ...

Judging by the polls, anyway

I think you delude yourself Mobe with polls by the pro-Remain lobby.

Yes, perhaps all Remain MP's in Parliament can form a new Centrist Party, they can call it the Remoan Party, lol. Think you'll find it still won't add up to the numbers needed, they will 'remain' the same.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 28, 2018, 11:41:22 AM
Ha! ..'Deluded' ..

You are burying your head in the sand

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/)
 Tories 5 percent down on Labour under JC ? ...That's not  problem for you ?

 Then there's the feeling re 'Brexit '
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 28, 2018, 03:21:18 PM
HA1 ..'Deluded' ..

You are burying your head in the sand

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ (http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/)
 Tories 5 percent down on Labour under JC ? ...That's not  problem for you ?

 Then there's the feeling re 'Brexit '

They also state that the Lib Dens are down one and UKIP are up one. Last week figures on the table on the right show Labour and the Tories are tied. In essence these polls are bollocks. Probably the same polka that predicted Remain would win the referendum and Hillary Clinton would be in the White House, lol.

Labour need 'a lot' bigger lead across all the polls and maintain it in order to stand a chance of taking power. Such leads as these polls shoe here have been seen yo quickly evaporate in a General Election campaign, they mean nothing.

Last time Labour did well because:

a). Theresa May lost her core elderly vote by following the advice of two inexperienced advisors.

b). The Lib Dems focused solely on Remain and in so doing so made no concerted attempt to regain the student vote they had previously lost if that was even a possibility. Corbyn saw an easy gain and went for the student vote.

Next time those mistakes are unlikely to be repeated so Labour is likely to lose ground rather than gain it.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on July 28, 2018, 09:11:41 PM
More guff

UKIP will be up votes from disillusioned 'Brextremists' - who - unlike you - see 'us' leaving in a  much diluted format

21st July:

Remain 54%, Leave 46% - Sunday Times poll .

In Northern Ireland it’s now +70% Remain with only the DUP pro-Leave - on a false prospectus which claims to be in  favour of soft Brexit in Belfast while voting hard Brexit at Westminster

There are a LOT off asses going to get kicked  and you are now in a minority - as folks - finally - wake up to the looming disaster

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 02, 2018, 12:59:45 AM
Well it looks like the government are preparing for either Brexit Deal or a Brexit No Deal scenario.

I'm not that bothered either way so long as we leave and do not get pushed into a Customs Union. I'm not sure though if Theresa can carry the day in a No Deal senario as things stand. Since it will mean tariffs she will likely need to call a General Election to jettison the DUP. Unless of course the DUP see it as a situation not if her making and accept a hard border over the risk of not exiting the EU.

Myself I am really just interested in being able to travel in Europe without much ordeal and the European Health Insurance card for convenience. This can be negotiated separately along with other issues after a No Deal Brexit if it comes to that and of course is in Europe's interest to come to an agreement on that. So just a question of sitting tight now and seeing what happens.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2018, 01:23:19 AM
Trench, it is HILARIOUS when you demonstrate your 'knowledge' of N.Ireland politics ..


As things stand, IF there was a Gen Election - probably being brought about BY the DUP - who WILL NOT support a no deal / hard border 'solution'  I believe you'll find the Tories could only govern with .....the DUP ;)

Ironically, CYPRUS has now popped up and said it will not support any deal from the EU side - if there's an attempt to force an Irish border )))

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 02, 2018, 04:51:10 AM
Trench, it is HILARIOUS when you demonstrate your 'knowledge' of N.Ireland politics ..


As things stand, IF there was a Gen Election - probably being brought about BY the DUP - who WILL NOT support a no deal / hard border 'solution'  I believe you'll find the Tories could only govern with .....the DUP ;)

Ironically, CYPRUS has now popped up and said it will not support any deal from the EU side - if there's an attempt to force an Irish border )))

I don't see what Cyprus has to do with any of this, they are hardly a big player in the EU.

If there is a hard Irish border it will likely be in a no Deal scenario anyway. The UK will unlikely be willing to pay the EU the 40bn it wants if it will not do a decent trade deal.

I believe an election could be winnable by the Tories and they get enough MP's over the DUP to gain a majority they have done it before. If not then Theresa may have to resign and someone like Boris have a crack at winning amother GE.

Labour are not looking in great shape at the moment with all this anti-semitism clap trap and their party is plot on the EU also, particularly Labour voters.

So unless a way forward is found this situation is likely to end up back at the ballot box one way or another.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2018, 05:26:47 AM
I don't see what Cyprus has to do with any of this, they are hardly a big player in the EU.

1/ ..and then he goes and proves he knows nought about the EU, too ? :))

Hint : all 27 remaining nations must agree any plan

2/ While the CTA and GFA exist ... NO UK govt can undo them with 'Brexit' stupidity ....  you need to wake up


Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on August 02, 2018, 07:00:26 AM
I would rather refrain from commenting on your posts Trenchcoat. But Trench, just curious how often do you think in a day?

If you read your posts on this thread alone it seems like you flop around like a small fish out of water.

A hint (for free) a small or big country that is part of the EU can torpedo/nix any Brexit 'deal.'

Yes I have my opinions regarding the European Union and they do not dovetail with Moby's but Trenchcoat you seem to be in LaLa land regarding this matter. While I am loath to comment on another countries policies, Brexit affects me personally in a negative way. Nonetheless I believe in both the goals and aspirations of the UK nation.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2018, 07:42:15 AM
While I am loath to comment on another countries policies, Brexit affects me personally in a negative way. Nonetheless I believe in both the goals and aspirations of the UK nation.[/size][/font]

Well, then you'll probably know that now the majority do not wish to leave ...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 02, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Well, then you'll probably know that now the majority do not wish to leave ...

That is what the Remain side have been pushing all along. I really don't see the situation has changed at all though. One poll says one thing and another says the other, so you can choose whichever you wish.

Truth is if we were to stay in the EU we would be facing an imminent housing disaster. We our pretty near to exhausted on housing stock yet the East Europeans would still keep coming. There is no room at the Inn and none in the barn, both are cramped full of people. Essentially people would be living in tents here, there and everywhere. So you see Mobe, your desire to stag in the EU really has no mileage left in it.

The smaller nations of the EU can say what they like. End if the day if the EU want tk do a deal with the UK they will put pressure on them to tow the line. It always happens that way. The big nations to have on board are France, Germany, etc which have a vested interest in doing a deal with the UK.

Deal or No Deal leaving the EU is the only viable option.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2018, 09:14:32 AM
That is what the Remain side have been pushing all along. I really don't see the situation has changed at all though. One poll says one thing and another says the other, so you can choose whichever you wish.

Trench knows they're ALL showing that, now ;)

Truth is if we were to stay in the EU we would be facing an imminent housing disaster.

 ;D

The Bank of England must have missed this when putting up interest rates today...  seeing folks with mortgages will be better off and credit harder to obtain

We our pretty near to exhausted on housing stock yet the East Europeans would still keep coming. There is no room at the Inn and none in the barn, both are cramped full of people. Essentially people would be living in tents here, there and everywhere. So you see Mobe, your desire to stag in the EU really has no mileage left in it.

As I'm off, there'll be more space ...

The smaller nations of the EU can say what they like. End if the day if the EU want tk do a deal with the UK they will put pressure on them to tow the line. It always happens that way. The big nations to have on board are France, Germany, etc which have a vested interest in doing a deal with the UK.

They do ? ....    You talk just  like a deluded leaver ... thinking UK PLC is SO important .... when most nations are licking their lips at picking up the biz 'we' are trying to throw away ...

Deal or No Deal leaving the EU is the only viable option.

'We' voted - just- to leave and HOW we leave just isn't NEARLY agreed and for those of us trying to plan .... it's plain daft

One thing is for sure ... there can't be a hard border in Ireland

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 02, 2018, 12:37:35 PM
Mobers I don't care about any business we may be throwing away. I care about my quality of life, if the place is full of East Europeans taking up housing and jobs then it is not good. Who cares about how well business is doing if everyone has to live in a pokey hole of a place to support it. Yes I very much care that a business is making X amount of money while the population including myself arent benefitting from it.

It's basically up to the British Government if they want a hard border in Ireland. If they can get it through government then that it supreme, sod anyone else who says otherwise.

Moby people who voted to leave are not going to change their mind. Remoaners campaignimg against Leave since the referendum have only entrenched them more, so thank you for that :D Do you really think telling someone else there view is wrong and you are right changes their mind? No it hardley ever does. Look at all the arguments and position taking on this forum aside from this thread. If anything it entrenchs people more that they are right.

Your just not going to won this one Mobers, we're leaving one way or another the only question left is how, and it will not be by a Customs Union judging from news reports out so far, a No Deal is very much bring prepared for :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2018, 02:52:53 PM
Mobers I don't care about any business we may be throwing away. I care about my quality of life, if the place is full of East Europeans taking up housing and jobs then it is not good. Who cares about how well business is doing if everyone has to live in a pokey hole of a place to support it. Yes I very much care that a business is making X amount of money while the population including myself arent benefitting from it.

There's that Trench stubbornness / stupidity...

1/ You should care... coz' the biz will be going elsewhere in the EU

2/ There'll be plenty of homes available when there's no jobs and the economic migrants have gone ;)

 
It's basically up to the British Government if they want a hard border in Ireland. If they can get it through government then that it supreme, sod anyone else who says otherwise.

THIS govt is held together by a party from N.Ireland that WILL do what it's people want - and that ain't a hard border ....Until brextremists wake up and smell the coffee - UK PLC is a ship without a set course

Moby people who voted to leave are not going to change their mind.

They are.... My Aunt, Uncle and Cousins have seen the light....as have many folk I know that voted leave

we're leaving one way or another the only question left is how,

I just said that.. but like Arnie.."we'll be back"


and it will not be by a Customs Union judging from news reports out so far, a No Deal is very much bring prepared for :)

Only an idiot thinks such an occurrence would be 'beneficial'...Idiots are always the last to learn of their mistakes
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on August 03, 2018, 09:20:57 AM
Well, then you'll probably know that now the majority do not wish to leave ...

We can assume democracy is a foreign/alien concept for you?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on August 03, 2018, 10:58:27 AM
Well, then you'll probably know that now the majority do not wish to leave ...

Are you saying that the Brexit vote should be best 2 out of 3?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 03, 2018, 08:25:45 PM
We can assume democracy is a foreign/alien concept for you?

Haha! Given your inability to understand when you are supporting a 'regime' of lunacy  in another place - that you cannot see any irony in your statement is indicative of your selective blindness to the very word you pay lip service to

The Democratic thing would be to let the people vote on the final agreement - given it is clear that this 'experiment' s going horribly wrong and risks peace in Ireland
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 03, 2018, 08:32:19 PM
I'm saying there should be a vote on the final agreement or if there's not one - a vote on accepting a 'no deal'  scenario...

Now that more people understand that the leave campaign was probably funded by questionable sources and has lied and polls reflect that the population may have changed it's mind - what could be more democratic...  ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 04, 2018, 02:09:45 PM
Any further vote in the matter risks more problems not less. It would threaten to be an endless downward spiral into chaos. If Remoaners had their way for a Customs Union or staying in the EU the Leave side would always say they had been cheated out their chance to leave the EU/Customs Union. Endless arguing would ensue and the situation would get more bitter than even now. UKIP would also make a comeback which the Tories in particular don't want.

That's why it's been made clear by Theresa that there will be no second referendum as any result other than for her deal or no Deal would mean pandemonium. Mobe being an Irish guy that revels in endless argument and conflict (remember the NI troubles - it's in their blood ;) )would quite happily push for something that causes chaos.

Many Remoaners are too thick to realise the implications of what they seek. The genie has been let out of the bottle and trying to recapture it is pure idiocy. Even that idiot Mark Carney is too dense to realise it's not a simple case of push through what Remoaners want, there would be a lot of problems if they ever tried to do that.

To be honest I am coming to think a clean break with the EU may be best. We can then do a deal with the US and elsewhere to fill the gap. Having to bend over backwards fir the mere trifles the EU offer most of which we can negotiate for later seems not worth the hassle.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on August 04, 2018, 03:56:25 PM
Why confuse anything. The vote was a majority to leave.

Leave be it.

Moby please give it a rest.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: JayH on August 04, 2018, 09:49:31 PM
Why confuse anything. The vote was a majority to leave.

Leave be it.

Moby please give it a rest.


The vote was a misguided aberration based on lack of understanding of the consequences --it will be reversed at some time.
If the current debate(s) had been active before the vote the outcome would have been different.

Remarkably similar situation with the US -- and both with the common factor of Russian intent to disrupt western democracies.The truly amazing thing is how successful they have been.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 04, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
AvHdB is a 'sheeple' and I'm  not 'human'... hence I may give his 'advice' a miss...

By the way, AvHdB thinks one can apply for an 'English' visa, so he is either aware of the break up of the UK which I missed or it is indictative of his observational skills....

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 04, 2018, 10:30:13 PM
THIS is an example of why the people need to be allowed to vote on any 'Brexit' deal

HOW can we trust knobs like this to be allowed to 'influence'

Mr Fox you failed in your leadership attempt for good reason - time to take your 30 pieces of silver from Mr Banks mystery   source(s) ..

IDIOTS like you may be  land us JC as PM ... DO please STFU ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073294 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073294)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 05, 2018, 01:44:14 AM
THIS is an example of why the people need to be allowed to vote on any 'Brexit' deal

HOW can we trust knobs like this to be allowed to 'influence'

Mr Fox you failed in your leadership attempt for good reason - time to take your 30 pieces of silver from Mr Banks mystery   source(s) ..

IDIOTS like you may be us JC as PM ... DO please STFU ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073294 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073294)

And the mighty wealth of George Soros, where does that lay? It's ridiculous for Remoaners to accuse the Leave side of shady financial backing when they have the same.

Most people on the subject of Brexit, business people too go with what is best for them. If a business is favoured by being in the EU they argue for the EU, if it is favoured by not being in the EU or may get opportunities by not being in the EU the will support leaving the EU.

Same with people as has been explained. If you don't want to spend a quarter of a million to buy a pigeon coop size of a house in the south of the UK then you vote to leave, simple as.

Liam Fox here us just explaining what I have been saying just slightly previous above that the EU are not seemingly wishing to reach a deal so with all the difficulty it is anyway we would be better leaving an reorganisating as we wish.

To end up with an organisation that tries to use the power it has been given to dominate it's member states is not a good thing.

As can be seen also May is doing the tour of the important states, France, Germany, etc that actually have some sway over proceedings and have a vested economic interest in doing a deal - as I also previously said ;)

Once the UK leaves if a deal is not done a beach head then exists for other nations to jump ship :D Who do you think will be next? :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 05, 2018, 02:14:08 AM
And the mighty wealth of George Soros, where does that lay? It's ridiculous for Remoaners to accuse the Leave side of shady financial backing when they have the same.

Is the remain side's "where did the money come from" being investigated, Trench ? .......

Most people on the subject of Brexit, business people too go with what is best for them. If a business is favoured by being in the EU they argue for the EU, if it is favoured by not being in the EU or may get opportunities by not being in the EU the will support leaving the EU.

What is too hard for your little brain to understand?   Business owners don't WANT to have loads more 'red tape' and the system works - so why break it ?

Same with people as has been explained. If you don't want to spend a quarter of a million to buy a pigeon coop size of a house in the south of the UK then you vote to leave, simple as.

Another fairy story from 'leave' that you bought .. hook line and sinker ... UK house prices are falling in the SE due to lack of confidence

Liam Fox here us just explaining what I have been saying just slightly previous above that the EU are not seemingly wishing to reach a deal so with all the difficulty it is anyway we would be better leaving an reorganisating as we wish.

Again, you're too daft to understand ...  he's just not realistic ... example : re the Irish border Q : We have had the CTA for 100 years and GFA for 20... His stance suggests it is 'better' to risk all that ? !

As can be seen also May is doing the tour of the important states, France, Germany, etc that actually have some sway over proceedings and have a vested economic interest in doing a deal - as I also previously said ;)

...and the French have told her not to expect too much ... but you don't understand French ...

It only takes 1 EU to veto any deal - So she's going to be busy

Once the UK leaves if a deal is not done a beach head then exists for other nations to jump ship :D Who do you think will be next? :)

When they observe what a mess we're already making - do you REALLY think so ? :))
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 05, 2018, 03:24:27 AM
Is the remain side's "where did the money come from" being investigated, Trench ? .......

What is too hard for your little brain to understand?   Business owners don't WANT to have loads more 'red tape' and the system works - so why break it ?

Another fairy story from 'leave' that you bought .. hook line and sinker ... UK house prices are falling in the SE due to lack of confidence

Again, you're too daft to understand ...  he's just not realistic ... example : re the Irish border Q : We have had the CTA for 100 years and GFA for 20... His stance suggests it is 'better' to risk all that ? !

...and the French have told her not to expect too much ... but you don't understand French ...

It only takes 1 EU to veto any deal - So she's going to be busy

When they observe what a mess we're already making - do you REALLY think so ? :))

Well there was this : http://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

And claims a lot of the pro Remain campaign groups broke spending but it looks like pro remain contacts have stopped these from being investigated. Plus the Remain side had all of the government machinery on their side during the referendum - all unaccounted for spending.

The CTA will remain in force, it is an agreement between Ireland and the UK regardless of the EU.

House prices have eased off in the SE as there is no one left with the money to buy. It has nothing to do with confidence.

I've told you before if the big important EU states come on board the rest will agree also. It always happens that way.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 05, 2018, 04:07:41 AM
Why confuse anything. The vote was a majority to leave.

Leave be it.

Moby please give it a rest.


Exactly! :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 05, 2018, 08:19:08 AM
Well there was this : http://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

And claims a lot of the pro Remain campaign groups broke spending but it looks like pro remain contacts have stopped these from being investigated. Plus the Remain side had all of the government machinery on their side during the referendum - all unaccounted for spending.

Er DUH ! The govt is largely pro LEAVE - so much for that 'spin' ...

The CTA will remain in force, it is an agreement between Ireland and the UK regardless of the EU.

So, do tell ..'open border... What's to stop an EU citizen crossing into N.Ireland and onto GB ?  Think N.I will accept 'border controls' within the UK ..... You  truly are a clot of monumental proportions

House prices have eased off in the SE as there is no one left with the money to buy. It has nothing to do with confidence.

How come in other EU nations like Eire prices are rising ?

You post SO stupid ... What's the price of a 3 bed semi in Dundalk ?..The same in Newry, 15mins up the road ....   ?

HALF price .... it's ALL about Brexit insecurity ..and rightly so .. You are just TOO dim to see a fact dangled in front of your nose

I've told you before if the big important EU states come on board the rest will agree also. It always happens that way.

Like I'd listen to an amoeba's 'advice'  / opinion...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on August 05, 2018, 09:24:42 AM
Quote from: Trenchcoat on Today at 04:24:27 AM
I've told you before if the big important EU states come on board the rest will agree also. It always happens that way.

Like I'd listen to an amoeba's 'advice'  / opinion...

 :ROFL:  Thanks for making my brunch!

For what it is worth an amoeba on the other side is spelt ameba but in fact I suspect Trench is more an amoeboid.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 02:02:22 AM
Well it looks like the EU are going to suffer worse than the UK under a No Deal scenario judging from recent reports.

Seeing that Barnier is unwilling to do a deal with the UK in fear of putting the integrity of the Single Market at risk its looking like a No Deal will be the most likely outcome.

It's very possible that the UK could established  European Free Trade Association and subsequently other EU nations could break away from the over bearing nature of the EU and join a much less expensive and purely economic trade association.

Odds are that Ireland is highly likely to hold a referendum on leaving the EU should the economic impact be heavily felt by them. Italy of course is very much on the cards also :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 06, 2018, 02:45:27 AM
Well it looks like the EU are going to suffer worse than the UK under a No Deal scenario judging from recent reports.

From who ? The Sun, Mail , Express, Telegraph :))?

You don't trust the Bank of England !...

Seeing that Barnier is unwilling to do a deal with the UK in fear of putting the integrity of the Single Market at risk its looking like a No Deal will be the most likely outcome.

This is a scare tactic by desperate 'leavers' - there won't be a 'no deal' scenario as the DUP won't let that happen

It's very possible that the UK could established  European Free Trade Association


Such as zone exists - Norway and Switzerland - for example are part of it ... they are part of the single market and have NO say in EU rules which they must comply to - to be part of the club


Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 03:20:22 AM
From who ? The Sun, Mail , Express, Telegraph :))?

You don't trust the Bank of England !...

Apparently this is what even the Bank of England say, aka Mark Carney, from a Remoaner no less:

http://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/17/eu-worse-uk-no-deal-brexit-amid-big-consequences-warns-carney/amp/

You just keep walking onto them Mobers :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 03:29:16 AM

This is a scare tactic by desperate 'leavers' - there won't be a 'no deal' scenario as the DUP won't let that happen

Such as zone exists - Norway and Switzerland - for example are part of it ... they are part of the single market and have NO say in EU rules which they must comply to - to be part of the club

A General Election will have to be held to press the 'eject' button on the DUP. Labour are in disarray over the antisemitism debate & Corbyn's leadership, etc. So long as Theresa doesn't make a gaff like like time with the old peeps vote she will likely be returned with a majority.

I mean the UK could set up a European free trade association separate to the EU, far less rules & much cheaper. Have it UK led to avoid it evolving into another EU. I think many nations would be clamouring to get out of the EU in their droves to join it. A good way for the UK to avoid being drawn back into the EU me thinks :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 06, 2018, 03:50:10 AM
Labour are in disarray over the antisemitism debate & Corbyn's leadership, etc. So long as Theresa doesn't make a gaff like like time with the old peeps vote she will likely be returned with a majority.

You ARE an idiot about such stuff ... 

1/ Whilst I am no fan of JC and Labour - I hardly think this is affecting them in the polls - probably HELPING them

2/ A loss on crucial 'Brexit' matters would bring about a vote of no confidence and the DUP would be voting like Turkeys for Xmas - if they aided a 'hard border

This is 101 stuff - you just don't HAVE a clue

I mean the UK could set up a European free trade association separate to the EU, far less rules & much cheaper. Have it UK led to avoid it evolving into another EU. I think many nations would be clamouring to get out of the EU in their droves to join it. A good way for the UK to avoid being drawn back into the EU me thinks :)

When you 'think' - must of us realise you haven't ... this is but another example
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on August 06, 2018, 03:54:38 AM
Trench.... quit dreaming again....  If such would be so easy to do and so popular it would have long been done.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 04:40:48 AM
Mobe, the Tories aren't going to wait for a vote of no confidence to come about, as soon as it becomes apparent no further progress on Brexit talks can be made they will call a General Election - Parliament will be dissolved and hence the DUP will not be able to call a no confidence vote.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 06, 2018, 04:45:06 AM
Mobe, the Tories aren't going to wait for a vote of no confidence to come about, as soon as it becomes apparent no further progress on Brexit talks can be made they will call a General Election - Parliament will be dissolved and hence the DUP will not be able to call a no confidence vote.

..and Trench walks on to the next punch ..

You think Mrs May - if she is still leader will gamble losing even MORE seats ?

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 11:57:59 AM
..and Trench walks on to the next punch ..

You think Mrs May - if she is still leader will gamble losing even MORE seats ?

She lost seats before because she thought she get a blank cheque from voters to tack anything onto the agenda. Her two idiot inexperienced advisors told her to target the elderly into an extra inherentance tax on their property to pay for their care costs. This did not go down well and despite her backtracking on that the damage was done.

Some time has passed since all of that and matters moved on. I'm guessing were a General Election called today she would get the majority she would need albeit a small one. I think Labour have reached the ceiling of their support under Jeremy Corbyn. I don't see him doing any better next time, he exceeded expectations last time.

If Theresa calls a General Election and secures a majority it will also help her see of any Leadership challenges. If a No Deal situation comes about which is now seemingly most likely she will have no other choice as she's already rejected the Customs Union and will need to offload the DUP.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 06, 2018, 12:33:13 PM

I'm guessing were a General Election called today ..

Your guesses are worthless given the current polls..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 04:55:53 PM
Your guesses are worthless given the current polls..

You mean the same pollsters that predicted a Remain Victory, the Lib Des getting more seats than get did and Paddy Ashdown having to 'eat his hat' lol, etc, etc.

They mean nothing Mobers, the same pollsters predicted The Tories would hammer Labour in the last GE then Theresa made her gaff and Corbyn swung the Student vote meaning she ended up with a minority government. Leads like you are looking at can evaporate overnight if they indeed even exist. Remember it is a sample of the electorate being asked outside of actual voting. Will they all actually toddle along and vote? Some mah not. Your need to stop clutching at straws Mobers ;)

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 06, 2018, 09:14:23 PM
You mean the same pollsters that predicted a Remain Victory, the Lib Des getting more seats than get did and Paddy Ashdown having to 'eat his hat' lol, etc, etc.

They mean nothing Mobers, the same pollsters predicted The Tories would hammer Labour in the last GE then Theresa made her gaff and Corbyn swung the Student vote meaning she ended up with a minority government. Leads like you are looking at can evaporate overnight if they indeed even exist. Remember it is a sample of the electorate being asked outside of actual voting. Will they all actually toddle along and vote? Some mah not. Your need to stop clutching at straws Mobers ;)

The Polls are not close, like in June 2016 - with a 2 percent margin of error ...

With every post you manage to confirm you are denser and denser
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 06, 2018, 11:54:38 PM
The Polls are not close, like in June 2016 - with a 2 percent margin of error ...

With every post you manage to confirm you are denser and denser

Mobers, this is are great chance to be free from the EU!

No more awkward negotiations, summits to eventually deal with problems made worse by a lack of competence from the EU and time to focus on the UK.

We would also free ourselves from the oncoming economic catastrophe of EU debt - it's piling up and before long it will be called in. We don't want to part of the EU when they do or it could mean we to are caught in the economic crises.

The EU is adding to the debt all the time with heavy spending and adding the payments to it to nations like ours which it sees as rich nations to plunder for our wealth to fund it's 'Project'.

We never asked to be a part of the EU's 'Project' let alone fund it. If we get out of Europe now we can separate ourselves from this immenant :trainwreck: and help free some of Western Europe from it too.

Change your mind Mobers.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 07, 2018, 12:11:41 AM
Mobers, this is are great chance to be free from the EU!

For unthinking clots ...


Change your mind Mobers.

Residency in another EU nation arranged
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 11:49:22 AM
I'm surprised why the recent plight of migrants to Europe is an issue for EU now, considering the long standing criticism they held against US illegal immigration policies, especially that of Trump's stance against migrants' proclaiming unregulated admittance only brings us heightened criminal activities and economic hardship?

Time to walk their talk, no? Karma is a biyatch!

 http://www.oann.com/refugee-crisis-escalates-in-europe-as-some-countries-fight-back/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 10, 2018, 01:49:27 PM
GQBlues should stick to Golf or gardening - where his expertise is not questioned ...

JUST back in the UK and will explain the folly in your comparison, tomorrow

CLUE: Please check whether - in joining the EU-  nations have to agree to be bound by Directives - which take precedence over national law  ..and please search to find if there was a Directive on sharing the load in the event of an Immigration crisis...




 

 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 02:08:06 PM
GQBlues should stick to Golf or gardening - where his expertise is not questioned ...

JUST back in the UK and will explain the folly in your comparison, tomorrow

CLUE: Please check whether - in joining the EU-  nations have to agree to be bound by Directives - which take precedence over national law  ..and please search to find if there was a Directive on sharing the load in the event of an Immigration crisis...


 :P


Oh I see! Then the implication you make regarding 'distinction' should also apply to Euros' criticisms which should've have taken *careful* consideration what our (illegal) immigration policies are about first, correct? ......Have they, you think? i.e the silly Pope's bridge vs wall theory hypocrisy.

I've not an ounce of curiosity to do any type of 'searching' related to anything *EU*. Ain't my concern whatever is happening there. I can only hope everyone there is happy as a lark (I am aware however that that sentiment isn't mutual).

I assure you that watching from where I'm at is entertaining as it is. Methinks *Darwin's Nightmare* long time coming is about to haunt you folks after all these years, is all...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on August 10, 2018, 03:18:23 PM
Which EU leaders criticized the US’ immigration policies?  The only one I can think of is France criticizing separating children from their parents, and that is deplorable.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 03:46:55 PM
LMAO!

I was under the impression you are the expert on 'all things (negative) USA'.

Quote from: Steffen Siebert speaking for Merkel
The chancellor regrets the U.S. entry ban against refugees and citizens from several countries. She expressed her concern to US President Trump during a telephone call on Saturday and reminded him that the Geneva Conventions require the international community to take in war refugees on humanitarian grounds,

Quote from: France's Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault
Trump's order can only worry us. We have signed international obligations, so welcoming refugees fleeing war and oppression forms part of our duties.

That's just two examples. For now..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
Quote from:  Sigmar Gabriel
The United States is a country where Christian traditions have an important meaning. Loving your neighbour is a major Christian value, and that includes helping people. I think that is what unites us in the west, and I think that is what we want to make clear to the Americans.

Quote from: Luxembourg foreign minister Jean Asselborn
The American president is dividing the Muslim world into good and evil with this. The decision is also bad for Europe because it will increase the Muslim world’s mistrust and hatred of the west.

eat...crow...

The caption showing those migrants in Spain, they look like strong, abled bodies to me. I'm sure they'll happily integrate and assimilate into European societies. Make millions of children for Europe's bright and promising future. Matter of fact, I think they've already had more than a few legs up in Sweden and Germany doing just that, IINM.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on August 10, 2018, 04:49:20 PM
LMAO!

I was under the impression you are the expert on 'all things (negative) USA'.

That's just two examples. For now..

A ban against refugees is different from illegal immigration.

I never claimed to be an expert in all things negative about the US.  You seem to be sensitive on this issue.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on August 10, 2018, 04:56:22 PM
msmob,

you "de man" as far as I am concerned, major respect for your life's experiences
please forgive my unsolicited advice
but it's pointless arguing with racists, it really is...

gqblues is a brown skinned gentleman who originates from a former Spanish colony
who is highly prejudiced against other brown skinned people who come from former Spanish colonies
gqblues came to the usa for exactly the same reason as anyone else including my ancestors
his ability to legally be here, has nothing whatsoever to do with him personally, or his merits
but because of what's known as "chaining" which the Alt-Right hates just as much as "illegal immigration"
but guess whose side he's on?
watch out cuz pretty soon, he'll probably start calling you a Chihuahua, he's very mature, and does not have a "Napolean Complex" or some kind of racial chip on his shoulder at all, no not at all

bring it on GQ....
show me what ya got son...




Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 06:08:33 PM
A ban against refugees is different from illegal immigration.

No. It's a ban against the process. I'm sure you're aware the temporary ban was to conduct stricter vetting process from those select states.

Quote
I never claimed to be an expert in all things negative about the US.  You seem to be sensitive on this issue.


Sensitive? No. I find your US expertise a bit comical. What's the matter? CNN running out of dossier?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 10, 2018, 06:13:27 PM
<snipped>

Ahh, the typical knee-jerk liberal response ...when you have nothing else to debate, pull out the 'race' card.

From a moralistic snowflake, who professed *flaunting his wealth* over women/girls living in economically-challenged region and thinks he's a Casanova, or one who unabashedly boasts about whoring around while married, there can't possibly be anything to come from you can ever give me a cause to pause. I've seen street-side, lowlife twits who have more substance than you. You don't even register as an appetizer.

"Water burns leaves", LMAO!

"Racist! Alt-Right! Bring it on! Yada-Yada-Yada" LMAO! What a joke!

You see, the problem with you snowflakes is, you just don't realize you happen to live on a planet with a sun.

FWIW, colloquailly, it's *DA MAN* not 'de man'. But I'm sure you flattered msmob nonetheless.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on August 10, 2018, 06:31:54 PM
that's it, that's ALL ya got?
I has the sadz, was hoping for something better than that...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Boethius on August 10, 2018, 08:30:58 PM
No. It's a ban against the process. I'm sure you're aware the temporary ban was to conduct stricter vetting process from those select states.

But international conventions state you can’t vet those claiming refugees status once they make it to your border. You vet them after admitting them.

Sensitive? No. I find your US expertise a bit comical. What's the matter? CNN running out of dossier?

Please point to all these posts citing my expertise. While you’re at it, please point to my posts critical of the US.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 10, 2018, 11:30:46 PM

 :P


Oh I see!

Good

1/ You you accept that you didn't know about the Directive on Immigration crises and sharing the load ? ;)

2/ You accept that it wasn't just EU folk pointing out the legal and moral ramifications of some of the dubious actions of your President ?

NB I should add that 'my' ( currently still ) EU home nations UK / IRL managed to kop out out of this specific Directive - along with Denmark to my shame

Those nations  (like Hungary ) knew da rulz and can leave the club - if they want ....

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 12, 2018, 02:16:51 PM
For all those non-UK guys wishing to know more (I know you are ;D ) about the Leave/Remain divisions in Parliament across the parties this is not a bad summary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44870393?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 12, 2018, 07:18:33 PM
No heading for the DUP who are THE 'king-makers'..sort of spoils the article

Note how five LABOUR MPs might not be around to support 'Brexit' much longer ..

It is ironic how N.Ireland folks hold the key to Brexit - esp as 70 percent of my people are pro REMAIN  ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 13, 2018, 01:46:30 AM
No heading for the DUP who are THE 'king-makers'..sort of spoils the article

Note how five LABOUR MPs might not be around to support 'Brexit' much longer ..

It is ironic how N.Ireland folks hold the key to Brexit - esp as 70 percent of my people are pro REMAIN  ;)

Yes but those 5 Labour MP's keep their seats regardless of whether they are deselected by their local party to run for Labour in the next General Election or if they get kicked out of Labour. It would take another GE for them to lose their seats, even if they were deselected they might run and win as Independents - Frank Field & Kate Hoey have geld their seats so long that a lot of their local constituents recognise only them, that is is they choose not to retire as they ate both getting on a bit.

Another GE could also jettison thd DUP as 'kingmakers' as you call them, if they outlive their usefulness Theresa would call time on their deal, they are only useful to her so long as the yard in line with her vision - I don't think Theresa gives a fig about staying in power for the sake of it as a lame duck administration, she'll call a GE if push came to shove you mark my words. The DUP don't have the power you think they have, it only looks that way on the surface.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 13, 2018, 06:11:11 AM
Yes but those 5 Labour MP's keep their seats regardless of whether they are deselected by their local party to run for Labour in the next General Election or if they get kicked out of Labour.

REALLY ?

On what do you base your 'assertion' ?

Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 13, 2018, 09:10:25 AM
Good

1/ You you accept that you didn't know about the Directive on Immigration crises and sharing the load ? ;)

LMAO! I thought after 24 hours you could've at least not miss the original point of my post you're responding to. You use to only be stuck on 1st gear. Now it's obvious you can't even get out of 'park' anymore.

I was commenting on the current situation in EU's migration and how I completely enjoy watching the (endless) influx of migrants into the region. I am actually VERY HAPPY for EU for be so gracious. I hope they stay with it and prove to DJT the error of his ways and what he's missing out on. Do you think they can expedite this process even faster by sending hundreds of cargo planes and ships from these regions instead of waiting at their respective ports/borders tossing garlands and with open arms? The pope should be tickled pink if the EU did that. I'm sure of it.

Really too bad countries like Poland, Czech and Hungary refuse to honor EU's wonderful *DIRECTIVE*. That's so unfortunate! Considering their own diminishing population one would think they'd welcome them like Italy/Sweden and Germany have done, no? Hell, the way I look at it, since the UK isn't yet officially 'out of the EU', folks like you should really make a giant effort to convince your politicians to welcome a million more of these migrants - AT LEAST - wouldn't you agree? Better get on the ball with that, msmob! Show us the depth of your conviction!!!

Anyway, In case you misread it, allow me to post what I said again just for you..

I'm surprised why the recent plight of migrants to Europe is an issue for EU now, considering the long standing criticism they held against US illegal immigration policies, especially that of Trump's stance against migrants' proclaiming unregulated admittance only brings us heightened criminal activities and economic hardship?

Time to walk their talk, no? Karma is a biyatch!

 http://www.oann.com/refugee-crisis-escalates-in-europe-as-some-countries-fight-back/

...and here's another video (http://www.oann.com/new-paris/)..this one is in the *(new) Paris*. These videos are simply breathtaking!


2/ You accept that it wasn't just EU folk pointing out the legal and moral ramifications of some of the dubious actions of your President ?

To be honest, what I can accept is what reality actually is. Our Supreme Court ruled in favor of, and upheld, Trump's travel ban. No surprise there. I know many of your leaders are now wishing to, if they haven't yet already (unfortunate that may be), forego *moral ramifications* (LMAO) and do as The Donald Do. But I can't blame you, man. Googling for real US news have its limits nowadays. Ask Boethius.

BTW, speaking of *legal and moral ramifications*, I'm sure you're not surprised these current mass migration is coming from regions Europe had enjoyed bilking for centuries now, don't you? Or is that just a coincidence?

NB I should add that 'my' ( currently still ) EU home nations UK / IRL managed to kop out out of this specific Directive - along with Denmark to my shame

Those nations  (like Hungary ) knew da rulz and can leave the club - if they want ....

I know, and I agree with you. Which is why I said what I did above. Shame on these countries. A couple or three million more going to the UK before their bailout plan kicks in would be wonderful. UK's social system will do wonders for these folks. It might even inspire Trenchcoat to change his way and pull double time.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 13, 2018, 11:02:31 AM
REALLY ?

On what do you base your 'assertion' ?

Once an MP is elected neither the national or local party to which they belong can take away their seat or call a by-election. Only the sitting MP can do that or if they die there is one. The MP can only be stoped from running as an MP in any future General Election by for that party, but there is nothing to stop them running for another party or for themselves as an individual.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 13, 2018, 11:46:03 AM
IF Hoey and co are deselected there is no way they'll be supported by Labour and they'll be replaced

There is likely to be a Gen election before time's up - given the govt ARE going to get defeated - prob when the DUP pull their support
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 14, 2018, 09:26:57 PM
Nightwish-

What on earth is going on in Sweden? Who coordinated and set those cars on fire?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on August 14, 2018, 09:42:14 PM
Video of the driver who struck bicyclists and crashed into security barriers outside Parliament in Westminster. Religion of peace again?

http://metro.co.uk/video/footage-arrested-driver-crashed-car-parliament-1744482/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 15, 2018, 12:57:15 AM
Dear DaveNY

Are you claiming Clergy who sexually abuse kids are 'religious' ?   

IF you knew anything, you'd realise that the VAST majority of folk are peace loving and not sexual deviants ....


Kindly don't stick labels on the majority because of evil wrong doers
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on August 15, 2018, 01:43:12 AM
Dear DaveNY

Are you claiming Clergy who sexually abuse kids are 'religious' ?   


Of course not! However more than likely they will be white.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on August 15, 2018, 08:43:21 AM
Dear DaveNY

Are you claiming Clergy who sexually abuse kids are 'religious' ?   

Yes, of course. The Catholic church should be shut down. There's another report about the Catholic church protecting priests in Pennsylvania.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/08/14/grand-jury-report-pennsylvania-details-abuse-catholic-priests/980687002/

IF you knew anything, you'd realise that the VAST majority of folk are peace loving and not sexual deviants ....


Kindly don't stick labels on the majority because of evil wrong doers

Why not? Labeling people is done all the time.

As an American I'm blamed for all my country's poor decisions such as going into Afghanistan and Iraq?
As a male I'm blamed for the crisis of females being raped and of course I have male privilege.
As a white person I'm blamed by BLM and other black activist groups for all the problems blacks face because I have white privilege.

No one says those labels are wrong. In fact, IMO the medial appears to approve of them. Seems only fair to ask all Muslims to apologize for the actions of their terrorist brothern.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 15, 2018, 10:00:09 AM
Yes, of course. The Catholic church should be shut down. There's another report about the Catholic church protecting priests in Pennsylvania...

The sole reason why I struggled with my faith. The institutionalized men of God. The silly pope will simply tuck this under the proverbial vatican rug and preach *faith* all over again.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: SANDRO43 on August 15, 2018, 03:46:35 PM
A simple solution would be to allow Catholic priests to marry and/or allow women to enter the clergy as other churches do ;).

But I'm afraid that even Pope Francis would not be able to promote such a revolutionary change :).
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on August 15, 2018, 03:55:00 PM
maybe people need to "protest" and start a new church  :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on August 15, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
maybe people need to "protest" and start a new church  :)

They have been doing that since the 'Reformation'. That was 500 years ago.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: krimster2 on August 15, 2018, 06:24:04 PM
really? I wonder if they should call them protest(ants) then, oh wait, they already do... :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 17, 2018, 01:01:59 PM
Moby keeps pressing the case for the EU, but this means certain Civil War in the UK, there isn't no way us Brexiteers are backing down.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on August 17, 2018, 02:30:47 PM
For our German member on the board, is this report true or not?


http://www.oann.com/christian-yazidi-refugees-forced-to-flee-germany-from-isis-persecution/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on August 18, 2018, 12:31:10 AM
For our German member on the board, is this report true or not?

One reported incident of personal recognition and reported threat that was investigated but could not be fully substantiated because the witness returned to origin, back to her family.
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/jesidin-is-deutschland-101.html  http://www.dw.com/en/yazidi-woman-encounters-islamic-state-captor-in-germany/a-45114593

Germany also has voluntary return programs that cover travel, reintegration and other benefits to get your feet back on the ground, even with starting up a business. Most if not all countries do the same and even if not EU has a program ERIN that assists.
http://www.returningfromgermany.de/en/programmes
http://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/erin_specific_action_program_tender_2018

Whatever the motivation returning home is possible and thousands do take the offer.  Applies also to those from Ukraine and Russia if they immigrated to EU before 2018.

It is nice to know that those who want to return can do so without just a one way ticket and boot in the butt.  Rest assured any reported incidents will be fully investigated.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 18, 2018, 12:37:03 AM
Moby keeps pressing the case for the EU, but this means certain Civil War in the UK, there isn't no way us Brexiteers are backing down.

Yes, you would 'fight' for stupidity ! 

THIS poster won't be living in the UK ....   I will attempt to profit from your daftness

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 19, 2018, 08:00:24 AM
Yes, you would 'fight' for stupidity ! 

THIS poster won't be living in the UK ....   I will attempt to profit from your daftness

Ah, no loyalty I see, well it looks like the lady is not for turning and we are going to Brexit :) A no deal Brexit is looking on the cards. So perhaps you should start packing your bags now Mobers and of course changing that country flag in your profile to your onwards bound destination ;D The Irish Rep flag maybe, or perhaps the Polish flag would me more to your liking, right at the heart of the cheap sweat shop labour for you ;)

Meanwhile I will wait in anticipation of your return to the UK, crawling in your knews to be allowed back in when the next EU mismanaged crises brings the whole lot crashing down, which of course will the EU's inability to pay it's own credit card bill!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 19, 2018, 12:42:54 PM
Ah, no loyalty I see

'loyalty' is for 'patriots' 

I can retain my 'Europeaness', thanks

well it looks like the lady is not for turning and we are going to Brexit :)

The lady may get stabbed in the back and they'll screw the whole thing up

A no deal Brexit is looking on the cards.

Real smart ...WTA default trade tariffs.. no thanks ....  You can keep your little englander mentality ..!


So perhaps you should start packing your bags now Mobers

You aren't that observant .. I have already stated that I am not UK resident


and of course changing that country flag in your profile to your onwards bound destination ;D The Irish Rep flag maybe, or perhaps the Polish flag would me more to your liking, right at the heart of the cheap sweat shop labour for you ;)

Fair point, re the flag ... sorted ....  and no-one in the 'sweat shop' earns less than 30K euro a year ... :popcorn:


Meanwhile I will wait in anticipation of your return to the UK, crawling in your knews to be allowed back in when the next EU mismanaged crises brings the whole lot crashing down, which of course will the EU's inability to pay it's own credit card bill!

Unless something dramatic happens - you are as accurate in your predictions as you are an expert in dating FSU W ;)

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on August 19, 2018, 01:38:24 PM
One thing is sure, with brexit the Channel will get a lot wider and the Chunnel will get a lot longer.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on August 19, 2018, 04:03:01 PM
Remainers really want another Brexit vote. SuperGroup cofounder Julian Dunkerton has donated £1 million ($1.28 million USD) to People's Vote campaign to fund a second Brexit vote. All referendums really should be best 2 of 3 just to make sure everyone has a chance to vote and give their opinion.

OTOH former U.K. Independence Party leader Nigel Farage announced Saturday that he would join a cross-country bus tour by the group Leave Means Leave to oppose Prime Minister Theresa May's plan for future ties with the EU, which he branded a "cowardly sell-out."

UK PM May is proposing to stick close to EU regulations in return for free trade in goods. The plan has infuriated Brexit-backers such as Farage and former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, who say it would leave the U.K. tethered to the bloc and unable to strike new trade deals around the world.

http://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/superdry-founder-gives-1-28-093855070.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/superdry-julian-dunkerton-donation-1-million-second-brexit-referendum-peoples-vote-2018-8
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 20, 2018, 12:54:07 PM
INCORRECT, DaveNY

It is not only 'remainers' seeking another vote .. please keep up ;)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-alastair-campbell-brexit-eu-peoples-vote-a8457071.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-alastair-campbell-brexit-eu-peoples-vote-a8457071.html)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on August 20, 2018, 01:11:00 PM
INCORRECT, DaveNY

It is not only 'remainers' seeking another vote .. please keep up ;)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-alastair-campbell-brexit-eu-peoples-vote-a8457071.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/second-referendum-alastair-campbell-brexit-eu-peoples-vote-a8457071.html)

Who are the others seeking another vote? If they're not remainers, who are they?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 20, 2018, 05:31:49 PM
Remainers really want another Brexit vote. SuperGroup cofounder Julian Dunkerton has donated £1 million ($1.28 million USD) to People's Vote campaign to fund a second Brexit vote. All referendums really should be best 2 of 3 just to make sure everyone has a chance to vote and give their opinion.

OTOH former U.K. Independence Party leader Nigel Farage announced Saturday that he would join a cross-country bus tour by the group Leave Means Leave to oppose Prime Minister Theresa May's plan for future ties with the EU, which he branded a "cowardly sell-out."

UK PM May is proposing to stick close to EU regulations in return for free trade in goods. The plan has infuriated Brexit-backers such as Farage and former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, who say it would leave the U.K. tethered to the bloc and unable to strike new trade deals around the world.

http://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/superdry-founder-gives-1-28-093855070.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/superdry-julian-dunkerton-donation-1-million-second-brexit-referendum-peoples-vote-2018-8

That's exactly the point Dave that Moby and many Remoaners fail to grasp. They are so caught up in the argument, basically Remoaning that they fail to see that the referendum result cannot be reversed - that simply holding more referendums won't settle this matter but could cause a never ending cycle of argument over Leave or Remain.

Essentially Leave won the mandate to Leave the EU however they saw fit. Remain need to acknowledge that Leave won thd electoral mandate and step aside. If Leave are not allowed to Leave then this matter will not be put to bed  since Leave will keep referening back to the electoral mandate they won. Hence why I say Remain cannot take back that victory.

It is sheer idiocy for Remain to carry on as they do. They should engage their brains (we will assume they have one ;) ) and say ok, Leave have the mandate and that will not change even after more referendums, it would be making a pigs ear of it to challenge their mandate as we have been doing. They should decide to key Brexit go through without further Remoaning then after a few years if ghings are obviously seen to not be panning call for another referendum or re-joining the EU/Customs Union. They would then have an opportunity to gain a electoral mandate and no one would say Leave were done out of their mandate - they would have had their chance and blew it.

But instead to date Remoaners wish to skew the Leave mandate by trying to push for a customs union. To say to the winning side - 'hey you've won but the other side is going to decide on how it's done so it works back tk what they want despite losing the referendum' is just pure madness. You can't tell the winning side that the losing side is going to decide matters it's laughable.

Idiots that we have here putting good money into trying to push the UK into a bad place where we are pitched against each other are no helping. I don't think sknd people value the real worth of money. If I had a million pounds I would quit work tomorrow not be spending it on some political campaign, lol.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 05:45:14 AM
That's exactly the point Dave that Moby and many Remoaners fail to grasp.

Trench - if you as observant in a date as you are re Brexit - it is an example of YOUR issues ..

'We' did vote to leave - we have not agreed HOW to leave - simples ..


Idiots that we have here putting good money into trying to push the UK into a bad place where we are pitched against each other are no helping. I don't think sknd people value the real worth of money. If I had a million pounds I would quit work tomorrow not be spending it on some political campaign, lol.

The 'idiots' funding things like the people's vote and the remain campaign are well known....  You need to ask where the funds from the likes of Mr Banks came from ....   then you'll realise the real idiots are those who voted leave ..

Today, the 'Brexit' secretary announced 'no deal advice' and suggested the govt was just covering all the bases - despite Liam Fox - also in the govt - telling us that 'no-deal' was the most likely scenario ......  :ROFL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972)

The advice shows that UK insurers and pension cos. paying pensions to overseas Brits would be operating illegally in the EU in a no deal scenario and the govt has quietly dropped a bombshell in that - from the UK perspective - 'we' will allow EU companies to operate when we leave ...and things will carry on as before ... 

The cabinet will be in disarray on it's return from it's Summer break as it is clear the govt is in reverse gear and Labour are dropping hints that they will vote down any no-deal scenario and possibly hold a second referendum :applause:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 23, 2018, 12:55:47 PM
Trench - if you as observant in a date as you are re Brexit - it is an example of YOUR issues ..

'We' did vote to leave - we have not agreed HOW to leave - simples ..


The 'idiots' funding things like the people's vote and the remain campaign are well known....  You need to ask where the funds from the likes of Mr Banks came from ....   then you'll realise the real idiots are those who voted leave ..

Today, the 'Brexit' secretary announced 'no deal advice' and suggested the govt was just covering all the bases - despite Liam Fox - also in the govt - telling us that 'no-deal' was the most likely scenario ......  :ROFL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972)

The advice shows that UK insurers and pension cos. paying pensions to overseas Brits would be operating illegally in the EU in a no deal scenario and the govt has quietly dropped a bombshell in that - from the UK perspective - 'we' will allow EU companies to operate when we leave ...and things will carry on as before ... 

The cabinet will be in disarray on it's return from it's Summer break as it is clear the govt is in reverse gear and Labour are dropping hints that they will vote down any no-deal scenario and possibly hold a second referendum :applause:

Only the Remoaners in Labour are "are dropping hints that they will vote down any no-deal scenario and possibly hold a second referendum" - guys like Kier Starmer - a Remoaner. All the Leave elements in the Labour Party will likely vote with the govt.

We will have to wait and see though it a Deal or no Deal comes about. It is still possible that a deal could be done. Either outcome would fulfill the Leave  mandate, that is HOW as in Leave means Leave. Not as in a Customs Union which is what we were a part off in the EU.

Now I hope from all of this you see why I don't bother with a private pension - just too much hassle, better to control ones own money me thinks :)

Anyway if it comes down to no deal there will likely be a General Election if the DUP aren't prepared to get on board or the Gov first chance a vote to see if the no deal scenario gets through - in the past votes some MP's have abstained from voting mainly on the Labour benches it seems and they may do the same.

I think your real problem is Mobers is your nor seeing all these arguments drempt up by Remain such as the 'How' are just attempts to reverse the referendum decision. I've already outlined why that is a very bad idea and Labour's Barry Gardiner came out shortly after my posting here and said the same thing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45259227?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

It's Labour MP's like him that see that every vote cast against a move to leave the EU in Parliament is an irresponsible vote that would very likely descend in to civil conflict. The split is roughly half and half, it would bring a huge amount of people onto the streets in protest against bring denied to leave the EU after a democratic vote to do so - and no they will not be happy with a second referendum to argue 'how' lol that will antagonise them even more. The scene on the streets could get very ugly quickly, they will be a large proportion of Leave supporters that will be inscenced at be frustrated with being allowed to leave the EU, largely peaceful protests as we saw with Remain supporters, since they lost and knew it, are not likely to be the case.

Apparently though Remain voters are happy that the country will likely be torn in two literally by keep pressing their case instead of bidding their time and seeing how Brexit works out then calling for another referendum a good 5-10 years after Brexit if it appears it is not going well. Sheer idiocy indeed.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 08:38:06 PM
Only the Remoaners in Labour are "are dropping hints that they will vote down any no-deal scenario and possibly hold a second referendum" - guys like Kier Starmer - a Remoaner. All the Leave elements in the Labour Party will likely vote with the govt.

..and you base this revelation on ? TheBeeb reported differently, yesterday - as Labour clearly sniff a chance to win votes


We will have to wait and see though it a Deal or no Deal comes about. It is still possible that a deal could be done. Either outcome would fulfill the Leave  mandate, that is HOW as in Leave means Leave. Not as in a Customs Union which is what we were a part off in the EU.

))

I'm already reading 'brexiters' cllaiming this is project fear 2" - ignoring that 'PF1' has proven accurate BEFORE we even leave..

Only dumb folks like you don't care about the huge costs we've already burdened our kids with,,, NO SAVINGS - just more costs ..

Now I hope from all of this you see why I don't bother with a private pension - just too much hassle, better to control ones own money me thinks :)

DUH.. a private pension - properly managed - gives MORE control ..

Anyway if it comes down to no deal there will likely be a General Election if the DUP aren't prepared to get on board or the Gov first chance a vote to see if the no deal scenario gets through - in the past votes some MP's have abstained from voting mainly on the Labour benches it seems and they may do the same.

More Trench bollox

The DUP will not support a hard border - that is a constant you do not learn

I think your real problem is Mobers

As we have just seen ... YOU are highlighting your problem..


 is your nor seeing all these arguments drempt up by Remain such as the 'How' are just attempts to reverse the referendum decision. I've already outlined why that is a very bad idea and Labour's Barry Gardiner came out shortly after my posting here and said the same thing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45259227?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit&link_location=live-reporting-story

You think I'd agree with a Labour MP ? ;)

I'm getting ready to cash in on the UK's howler - of voting to leave - while you 'theorise '..I might as well make money from the stupidity..


Apparently though Remain voters are happy that the country will likely be torn in two

That is the case already ... but you and I both realise that as more leave voters see the reality - they are waking up and questioning the wisdom of their earlier decision... a bit late .. but at least we can hope for a vote on how we leave.

literally by keep pressing their case instead of bidding their time and seeing how Brexit works out then calling for another referendum a good 5-10 years after Brexit if it appears it is not going well. Sheer idiocy indeed.

'Not going well ? '

You keep dreaming ...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2018, 03:20:06 AM
speaking of not going well ..

The ruling party cannot agree on 'Brexit' and certain ( Brextremists ) characters seem more keen on a leadership challenge, than the nation's best interests ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45292025 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45292025)

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2018, 05:10:22 AM
For Trenchie and John Gaunt ..

(http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/covers/full/1477_big.jpg)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 24, 2018, 08:49:52 AM
It's not the UK but EU that stands on the precipe of total defeat. The EU economy is in the last thrawls of total economic collapse. Through bad economic policy of taking on massive debt and expecting its economic members to stump up the cost.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Poor 'ol Trenchie is STILL being played like a fiddle

Pls explain why Rees-Mogg is moving his biz HQ to DUBLIN, IRELAND?  Reason?: Brexit 'uncertainty'...



Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 20, 2018, 04:15:41 AM
BTW - it wasn't his biz HQ - he's open a new fund - 'due to Brexit uncertainty ..' and he's distanced himself from it - claiming not to run the operation - he's just the major shareholder ..


So, Trenchie - you've been VERY quiet .

This article reminds you what I've been telling you ALL along ...

"Officials involved privately admit there is little chance that the solution is going to be found in any of the technical solutions, there is going to have to be a big political move on one side, or moves on both sides to be able to get to a deal.

And despite protestations from Brexiteers about how Ireland has come to dominate the talks, it has become whether they like it or not, the real life expression of Brexit's bigger conundrums.

The talks were always going to be complicated. But summit after summit, the biggest obstacle remains what happens there after we leave the EU.

Because after Brexit the border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the island becomes the line between the huge European trading club and a country that's on the outside."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45582911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45582911)

 

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 23, 2018, 03:00:19 PM
BTW - it wasn't his biz HQ - he's open a new fund - 'due to Brexit uncertainty ..' and he's distanced himself from it - claiming not to run the operation - he's just the major shareholder ..


So, Trenchie - you've been VERY quiet .

This article reminds you what I've been telling you ALL along ...

"Officials involved privately admit there is little chance that the solution is going to be found in any of the technical solutions, there is going to have to be a big political move on one side, or moves on both sides to be able to get to a deal.

And despite protestations from Brexiteers about how Ireland has come to dominate the talks, it has become whether they like it or not, the real life expression of Brexit's bigger conundrums.

The talks were always going to be complicated. But summit after summit, the biggest obstacle remains what happens there after we leave the EU.

Because after Brexit the border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the island becomes the line between the huge European trading club and a country that's on the outside."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45582911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45582911)

Well Mobers just been working on stuff for the ol' dating game :)

I'm not really bothered with what Rees-Mogg does. I didn't vote to Leave because of him. To be honest I never even knew he existed until after the Referendum.

Anyway, mixed signals from the EU of late on the one hand they are telling Theresa no deal is possible on her Chequers proposal and on the other they are saying an agreement is 87 percent complete. How they get to work it out as 87 percent I don't know, lol. So is that they got to 87 percent and realised it's a no deal is possible at that stage? I would assume so, they still are continuing negotiations but it looks like from what they are saying that it will be a no deal exit from the EU. The reception Theresa got in Salzburg (been there, nice place though the castle is the only thing worth visiting if not a Mozart/sound of music fan) pretty much closed the door on a deal and has almost decided the matter for us that we will be going for a no deal Brexit. That will make it easy for Theresa to say she tried and give us a nice clean break from the EU without having to pay them billions. I'm not particularly bothered either way whether its the Chequers Deal or a No Deal. The sooner the matter gets decided the better I think.

Meanwhile the Remoaners in Labour are still trying to push for a second Referendum without realizing the can of worms it will unleash. Good to see the likes of Kate Hoey and Len Mcklusky still sticking to their guns :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 23, 2018, 11:37:10 PM
The 'can of worms' was the first referendum - which was 'won' with BS promises that sensible folk knew were BS ..

What ARE 'leavers' frightened of ...?  It is clear HMG cannot get it together and a vote on how we leave - including an option to not to leave at all - us only scary as you lot know what will happen ..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 24, 2018, 05:27:03 AM
The 'can of worms' was the first referendum - which was 'won' with BS promises that sensible folk knew were BS ..

What ARE 'leavers' frightened of ...?  It is clear HMG cannot get it together and a vote on how we leave - including an option to not to leave at all - us only scary as you lot know what will happen ..
No mention of the BS that spewed from the remainers, eh?
As for being scared, isn’t it you that has scuttled away, tail between legs and got an Irish passport? Lol
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 24, 2018, 07:51:13 AM
Dunno about Moby, but got mine decades before Brexit.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 24, 2018, 08:21:07 AM
Dunno about Moby, but got mine decades before Brexit.
Moby’s doing so was because of Brexit.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 24, 2018, 09:03:06 AM
Even if so, I would call such quite prudent under the circumstances.

Better to build bridges than burn them.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 24, 2018, 10:08:05 AM
Even if so, I would call such quite prudent under the circumstances.

Better to build bridges than burn them.
In this case, the more burning, the better. Get rid of the whole rotten edifice.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BdHvA on September 24, 2018, 10:13:25 AM
. . . only scary as you lot know what will happen ..

Moby will moan and groan?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 24, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
The 'can of worms' was the first referendum - which was 'won' with BS promises that sensible folk knew were BS ..

What ARE 'leavers' frightened of ...?  It is clear HMG cannot get it together and a vote on how we leave - including an option to not to leave at all - us only scary as you lot know what will happen ..

Funny you bring that up Mobers, looks like Labour are in complete disarray over holding a second referendum - even those that want one some want just a customs union on the ballot others want an option to Remain in the EU on the ballot. So how many options may be on the ballot? Lol - not forgetting of course the Leave option that we have already voted in favour off. So with Labour Remainers not even able to agree amongst themselves there is little chance of them being able to make a concerted effort to get what they want. The upcoming Labour Conference vote to keep 'All options on the table' is a comical fudge that lays bare the point that Labour lack the cohesion to bring what Remainers want anyway.

Meanwhile Theresa is in the US seeking a trade deal, these are the people are future is with not the EU :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 24, 2018, 07:14:09 PM
No mention of the BS that spewed from the remainers, eh?

Weaker Pound - increased costs to industry for imports and consumers and inflation ?-  Happened

'Increased exports' - as a result of weaker Pound - DIDN'T happen..

Less Tax revenues -more govt borrowing - not 'savings'  happened and happening

Immigration from non EU nations would still exceed govt target  happening

Critical and non critical skills shortages - happening


You must be 'proud / blind'





As for being scared, isn’t it you that has scuttled away, tail between legs and got an Irish passport? Lol

Best to ask Q's not make daft ASSertions...I've had an IRL passport since 2004 and 'scuttling' infers a backward step - which - once again - is a fail on your part ..

To all the  posters who end up discussing m personal life - Why DO you keep walking onto punches ? ;)

My thanks to the more observant posters on here !

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 24, 2018, 07:20:35 PM
Funny you bring that up Mobers, looks like Labour are in complete disarray over holding a second referendum - even those that want one some want just a customs union on the ballot others want an option to Remain in the EU on the ballot. So how many options may be on the ballot? Lol - not forgetting of course the Leave option that we have already voted in favour off. So with Labour Remainers not even able to agree amongst themselves there is little chance of them being able to make a concerted effort to get what they want. The upcoming Labour Conference vote to keep 'All options on the table' is a comical fudge that lays bare the point that Labour lack the cohesion to bring what Remainers want anyway.

Meanwhile Theresa is in the US seeking a trade deal, these are the people are future is with not the EU :)

If you think Theresa May is our 'future' then gawd help us ..! ;)

I DID tell you that Corbyn would si =t on the fence until it mattered - he IS - along with the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer - a Euro-'septic' ... but Labour knows it can win power by taking advantage of the Tory disarray

To me that IS scary - a left wing govt under Corbyn and co ...


I's just an example of why 'leaving' is going to me SUCH a screw up

Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 24, 2018, 10:30:25 PM
Weaker Pound - increased costs to industry for imports and consumers and inflation ?-  Happened

'Increased exports' - as a result of weaker Pound - DIDN'T happen..

Less Tax revenues -more govt borrowing - not 'savings'  happened and happening

Immigration from non EU nations would still exceed govt target  happening

Critical and non critical skills shortages - happening


You must be 'proud / blind'





Best to ask Q's not make daft ASSertions...I've had an IRL passport since 2004 and 'scuttling' infers a backward step - which - once again - is a fail on your part ..

To all the  posters who end up discussing m personal life - Why DO you keep walking onto punches ? ;)

My thanks to the more observant posters on here !
Eh, which alternate reality are you inhabiting?
UK exports (http://atradius.co.uk/reports/Brexit-eu-trade-June-2018.html)
More UK exports (http://can.ymaws.com/www.export.org.uk/resource/resmgr/media/Newsletters/newsletterjune2017.pdf)

Tax Receipts (http://www.statista.com/statistics/284298/total-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/)
Non eu immigration? Can you see the future to make predictions on what will happen?

Moby, you’re full of dodoo, as always.
Who was bragging about getting an EU passport . Clue, it wasn’t me.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2018, 12:33:30 AM
If you think Theresa May is our 'future' then gawd help us ..! ;)

I DID tell you that Corbyn would si =t on the fence until it mattered - he IS - along with the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer - a Euro-'septic' ... but Labour knows it can win power by taking advantage of the Tory disarray

To me that IS scary - a left wing govt under Corbyn and co ...


I's just an example of why 'leaving' is going to me SUCH a screw up

Quite obviously Mobers either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn is going to be one of our future's unless either cark's it or steps down/leadership contest. At the moment neither seem interested in stepping down and there seems no enough will and/or no viable alternative in either party to replace either of them. Labour Blairites/Remainers had a go at replacing Corbyn and it failed spectacularly and that was before his goid showing in the GE. In the Tories only Boris Johnson seeks to be up to running against May as a viable alternative, the rest would only feature in the also ran. So maybe you would prefer Boris who is even more  of a Brextremist than May, lol.

Truth is Labour as I have just said has its own disarray, if the ball was in their hands they would be going through similar troubles as the Tories. I don't see them making headway in a GE campaign by being in such disarray it's laughable.

Yes I only hope that Corbyn will sit on the fence until the decision time on the EU is reached then back the decision which is made. That is the most responsible and only way outo of this situation I believe.

At the moment it's looking like it is going towards a no deal Brexit. This mornings headlines that EU citizens will gain no preference and the new immigration system will be skilled based further suggest a no deal is now where we are headed. If the DUP decided no to back a no deal/hard border then Theresa will need all the votes from Labour she can get to avoid a GE. If not she will go for a GE but something tells me Corbyn doesn't want to fight another GE on Brexit due to being at odds with Remainers on his party.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2018, 09:18:46 PM
Eh, which alternate reality are you inhabiting?

The real one - not figures showing 'improvements' based on vastly downward 'targets

From 2016 - 'old' news .. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/10/22/uks-14-billion-tax-shortfall-blamed-on-brexit-nerves/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/10/22/uks-14-billion-tax-shortfall-blamed-on-brexit-nerves/)

Are you in such denial you can't see / appreciate these figures and the increased borrowing - not 'savings'..don't tell me you believed the £350 million a week figure from 'leave' ...  ?

From 2018 - the latest news .."Government borrowing jumps to £6.8bn in August"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45598495 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45598495)

That's FIFTY percent more than Aug 2017 ..do you understand what this means ... ? UK PLC is WORSE off..not saving ..and there are plenty of public sector spending promises from Mrs May - money 'we'
ain't got - to come through, yet ..


"Government borrowing rose by more than expected last month following subdued tax receipts and an increase in expenditure.

Borrowing jumped to £6.75bn last month from £4.35bn a year earlier, the Office for National Statistics said."


The consumer boom in cars is over .. and more bad news for manufacturing ..SEPT 2018..


UK manufacturing growth hits 25-month low amid Brexit fears=

August figures dragged down by fall in exports and optimism for year ahead at 22-month low"


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/03/uk-manufacturing-growth-hits-25-month-low-amid-brexit-fears (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/03/uk-manufacturing-growth-hits-25-month-low-amid-brexit-fears)


So, what we really do have here is you in determined denial .  I travel around Europe and see folks getting ready to take advantage of 'our' stupidity and you are sleep-walking ..even Rees-Mogg - a Brextrremist in govt - set up a company that's set up in DUBLIN to 'take advantage of Brexit uncertainty' ))


Moby, you’re full of dodoo, as always.

Says the guy who's just had more recent data- which - for a normal person - would be chilling evidence ..

Who was bragging about getting an EU passport . Clue, it wasn’t me.

I'm on my SECOND IRL passport from 2014 .  :popcorn:  I got my first one nearly 15 years ago ..

Why can't you simply admit you've been another 'internet idiot' ( suggesting something about a poster that is nonsense )  and stick to something you DO know about - as when it comes to my personal life,..?))

 I think I'm  better qualified to know stuff you - and some  other culprits  - take guesses about  - as a rather silly attempt at  deflection ...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 26, 2018, 03:52:22 AM
I won’t bother quoting all the nonsense from your last post.
Suffice to say you have form on this and other fora at being argumentative to the nth degree on just about everything.
It’s pointless arguing about this with a shill like you.  :cluebat:

Brexit is going to happen and you’ll be dragged kicking and screaming to the exit along with the rest of your remainer mob.
I can’t wait.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 26, 2018, 04:14:15 AM
John,

Yes, Moby can be quite 'petulant' on boards, and has even said such IIRC.  That aside, what's your thoughts on

London (CNN)The chances of Britain holding a second referendum on Brexit just got higher.

Quote
Britain's opposition Labour party voted overwhelmingly Tuesday for a policy that would put a new vote on the table if Prime Minister Theresa May failed to get an eventual Brexit deal through the UK Parliament.
And Labour's Brexit spokesman, Keir Starmer, received rapturous applause at his party's annual conference when he raised the prospect that staying in the European Union would be on the ballot paper.
"Nobody is ruling out 'Remain' as an option," he said.
His comments were significant because Labour has been as divided over the issue as May's Conservative Party. Some Labour MPs represent districts in Britain that voted decisively to leave the EU in the 2016 referendum, and fear losing their seats if there is a general election. The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is known to be a lifelong Euroskeptic.

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/25/uk/brexit-labour-conference-second-referendum-intl/index.html

Time is passing quickly with only a hard break in sight and jitters setting in for even short term (likely longer) pain of such.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 26, 2018, 04:52:52 AM
John,

Yes, Moby can be quite 'petulant' on boards, and has even said such IIRC.  That aside, what's your thoughts on

London (CNN)The chances of Britain holding a second referendum on Brexit just got higher.

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/25/uk/brexit-labour-conference-second-referendum-intl/index.html

Time is passing quickly with only a hard break in sight and jitters setting in for even short term (likely longer) pain of such.
Who really cares about Labour patting themselves on the back and hoora-ing. It isn’t going to happen. Worst case scenario, another GE.
We won’t be denied on this issue and anyone who thinks otherwise aka Moby, is in for a bigger shock.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2018, 10:24:56 AM
I won’t bother quoting all the nonsense from your last post.
Suffice to say you have form on this and other fora at being argumentative to the nth degree on just about everything.
It’s pointless arguing about this with a shill like you.  :cluebat:

Brexit is going to happen and you’ll be dragged kicking and screaming to the exit along with the rest of your remainer mob.
I can’t wait.

 :D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2018, 10:39:21 AM
This is what Mobers and a lot of Remainers don't understand and what I have tried explain to him. Up till now aside from the US etc guys on here I have been the only UK guy arguing for Leave. Since John Gaunt joined this forum I see he also argues for Leave. That is repeated up and down the country. There are people like ourselves that will always staunchly support Leave or in Moby's case Remain.

Barring any decisive event unfolding that looks set to stay to be the situation.

Arguing for a second referendum before we have left and a good few years has passed to see how we fare alters nothing. It just locks us into an ever increasing and ever bitter divide. Any vote on favour of a customs union or to rejoin the EU before we leave would plunge us into turmoil, the ones like us are not going to go away we would feel agrieved by not being allowed to leave as we voted for. Leave supporters are not as vocal as Remain supporters at the moment but that would change in an instant if it looked like we were going to be denied the chance to leave. Leave support remains pretty much the same and it would be stupidity to ditch ourselves in an even longer term argument to Leave/Remain than exists already.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2018, 10:48:31 AM
I think it must be said also that Leave offers us the opportunity to become very prosperous as a nation. The EU only see countries successful as the UK as something to control for their purposes - revenue to build their EU Empire. If/when we take back control we can use all our revenue to build our nation, not other East European nations or the EU state apparatus as a whole. It already looks like we could well place ourselves to be strong global traders and prosper as a result rather than be a beaten down captive nation of the EU.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 26, 2018, 11:06:02 AM
This is what Mobers and a lot of Remainers don't understand and what I have tried explain to him. Up till now aside from the US etc guys on here I have been the only UK guy arguing for Leave. Since John Gaunt joined this forum I see he also argues for Leave. That is repeated up and down the country. There are people like ourselves that will always staunchly support Leave or in Moby's case Remain.

Barring any decisive event unfolding that looks set to stay to be the situation.

Arguing for a second referendum before we have left and a good few years has passed to see how we fare alters nothing. It just locks us into an ever increasing and ever bitter divide. Any vote on favour of a customs union or to rejoin the EU before we leave would plunge us into turmoil, the ones like us are not going to go away we would feel agrieved by not being allowed to leave as we voted for. Leave supporters are not as vocal as Remain supporters at the moment but that would change in an instant if it looked like we were going to be denied the chance to leave. Leave support remains pretty much the same and it would be stupidity to ditch ourselves in an even longer term argument to Leave/Remain than exists already.
Oh looky who’s back!!
Where have you been, Trenchy? Hiding somewhere or on another trip to some FSU backwater to test your dating theories?   :deadhorse:

There’s not much I have in common with you apart from being a Leaver.
Moby doesn’t understand the depth of feeling amongst leavers.
He has no affinity for this great nation and amply demonstrates so by constantly reminding us of how he has an Irish passport.
You’re welcome to it Moby, buy a one way ticket wont you?


Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2018, 02:12:54 PM
Oh looky who’s back!!
Where have you been, Trenchy? Hiding somewhere or on another trip to some FSU backwater to test your dating theories?   :deadhorse:

The latter of course! ;D
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 26, 2018, 09:30:23 PM

It’s pointless arguing about this with a shill like you. 

Oooh, so I'm 'paid' to post my opinion ?;) ...


Brexit is going to happen and you’ll be dragged kicking and screaming to the exit along with the rest of your remainer mob.
I can’t wait.


[/quote]

It is indeed going to happen  - and the harder it is the more quickly it will be reversed ... by our kids ..
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 26, 2018, 10:03:05 PM
Who really cares about Labour patting themselves on the back and hoora-ing. It isn’t going to happen. Worst case scenario, another GE.
We won’t be denied on this issue and anyone who thinks otherwise aka Moby, is in for a bigger shock.

Poor 'ol JG,

Just like our Trench ... who also has't got a scoobie doo,...Moby has a foot in both camps and confident the border between the EU and the UK will remain a change in the asphalt used and road markings as those WITH a clue know the 'Democratic' Union Party can and will bring any govt down trying to implement a no deal scenario ...


My feet either side of the border on the old Belfast to Dublin Road, yesterday .. Left foot in UK and right in the Republic !

(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1913/44942270231_9caef60446_b.jpg)




The photo is looking north from the Republic and the ONLY difference to be observed is the road markings ... On the dual carriage-way a sign warns of speed limits being in MPH / KM/h respectively and a welcome to the respective counties .....NO UK govt can try to change that ... and survive - which is why *I* remain confident as to who will end up being in shock ...


(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/44942256901_de821e557f_b.jpg)

BTW, I think I may have found the cheapest Diesel in the UK - a farm shop dispensing fuel on the border.. for 1.21 Euro / litre  = £1.05 / litre on 26th Sept 2018...  It's about 1.34 Euro / litre in the Republic and c.£1.27 / litre in the UK ..







Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 26, 2018, 10:22:53 PM
Oooh, so I'm 'paid' to post my opinion ?;) ...

A shill isn’t necessarily paid. Being selective again....aren’t you.

Quote
It is indeed going to happen  - and the harder it is the more quickly it will be reversed ... by our kids ..
Oh, that’s funny. You do know kids become adults and meet the real world at some point, don’t you? Then they know what’s good for them.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 26, 2018, 10:25:59 PM
Poor 'ol JG,

Just like our Trench ... who also has't got a scoobie doo,...Moby has a foot in both camps and confident the border between the EU and the UK will remain a change in the asphalt used and road markings as those WITH a clue know the 'Democratic' Union Party can and will bring any govt down trying to implement a no deal scenario ...


My feet either side of the border on the old Belfast to Dublin Road, yesterday .. Left foot in UK and right in the Republic !

(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1913/44942270231_9caef60446_b.jpg)




The photo is looking north from the Republic and the ONLY difference to be observed is the road markings ... On the dual carriage-way a sign warns of speed limits being in MPH / KM/h respectively and a welcome to the respective counties .....NO UK govt can try to change that ... and survive - which is why *I* remain confident as to who will end up being in shock ...


(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/44942256901_de821e557f_b.jpg)

BTW, I think I may have found the cheapest Diesel in the UK - a farm shop dispensing fuel on the border.. for 1.21 Euro / litre  = £1.05 / litre on 26th Sept 2018...  It's about 1.34 Euro / litre in the Republic and c.£1.27 / litre in the UK ..
As usual, this post is a load of waffle about nothing. You can stand on your head on the border for all I care. A foot in two nations but a leg in neither. Sums you up about right, Moby.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 26, 2018, 10:44:58 PM
A shill isn’t necessarily paid. Being selective again....aren’t you.

'OK' - so what is YOUR definition of a shill ?   Which organisation am I benefiting / benefiting from ?

Here's a clue for you ..  I'm not a member of any political party or 'remain' organisation ..

Once again, you got 'personal' and failed ....


Oh, that’s funny. You do know kids become adults and meet the real world at some point, don’t you? Then they know what’s good for them.

Ri-ight, I can see you've read the studies that show more  under 45's voted to REMAIN..

So, What's your definition of an 'adult' ... ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 27, 2018, 02:38:52 AM
I think a recent important announcement was that post Brexit EU citizens would gain no preference in citizenship. For me this points to a no deal Brexit as otherwise some preference was thought to be in with the deal. Either way it's likely that the EU will reciprocate the same back.

So this will leave Ireland as the long work around in a no preference system for anyone bothered enough to want UK citizenship from the EU or EU citizenship from the UK. Neither of which is likely to be immediately granted bit likely to need residency of at least two years in Ireland. Except of course for existing Irish citizens.

Of course this may be a hard ball tactic by Theresa May to get the EU to come to their senses, i.e by showing how cut of from the UK they could become compared to present arrangements.

Importantly for us guys doing the FSU dating scene  it could help keep or restore FSU block countries as viable options for FSU dating. It will once again shut out many Poles and EU Eastern European nations many of which chose the UK as a prime destination. It will probably take a few years to work through but I think the time could soon come again where Polish girls etc look to get with UK & US guys for a good life. Indeed the Polish economy is expected to take a downturn under a no deal Brexit.

Other non-EU nations like Ukraine, Russia and to a lesser extent Belarus are likely to show less seeping across the border to countries like Poland, Hungary and Romanian, etc to try to establish themselves to get EU citizenship and hence UK citizenship. UK citizenship is unfortunately nothing but a magnet for East Europeans, EU or Non EU. Once we leave the EU in March (hopefully) even uder a Chequers type of deal this situation may ease as this route of Entry into the UK gets cut off.

I think Brexit will not only help UK guys on here but also US, Canada, Australia, etc as it will cut out options for East Europeans to just satisfy themselves. So this should be good for all of us :)

Now this may come across as sounding a bit tight but from the experience of the Polish coming over here I can say it helps no one under such an arrangement of Free Movement. The Polish get greedy and take too much, the local population quite rightly get resentful and good life as a whole for both English and Polish goes down the tubes. Polish work too much and their relationships suffer, English get too little and their lives suffer. Brexit should help to restore the balance most will benefit from it even if Poles, etc are a little poorer for it. I think it will be interesting times ahead as a result on FSU dating!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 27, 2018, 06:36:29 AM
'OK' - so what is YOUR definition of a shill ?   Which organisation am I benefiting / benefiting from ?

Here's a clue for you ..  I'm not a member of any political party or 'remain' organisation ..

Once again, you got 'personal' and failed ....

Ri-ight, I can see you've read the studies that show more  under 45's voted to REMAIN..

So, What's your definition of an 'adult' ... ?
Aaah, that old con.
Moby always answers a question with a question.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 27, 2018, 07:00:41 AM
The latter of course! ;D
Well, don’t keep us in suspense a minute longer. We want to know about your dating fails.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 27, 2018, 11:29:51 PM
I think it must be said also that Leave offers us the opportunity to become very prosperous as a nation.


This is THE most stupid thing I hear from clueless supporters of leave - who are normally salaried and cannot realise they voted like Turkeys for Christmas ..

Since the referendum - UK PLC has demonstrated a huge slow down in recovery from leaving western nations out of the 2007/8 crash to trailing..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 27, 2018, 11:37:44 PM
Aaah, that old con.
Moby always answers a question with a question.

INCORRECT


You told us I am a 'Shill.'.

YOU, 'Sir' are now dodging the questions, as you know you posted daft ..    DO you know what a Shill is ? It's REALLY clear you don't ... 

Once again, on who's behalf am I 'shilling' and for what benefit ? ....

Why don't you try posting something about your experience of how 'leave' have been proven 'correct'...? 






Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 27, 2018, 11:50:55 PM
As usual, this post is a load of waffle about nothing. You can stand on your head on the border for all I care. A foot in two nations but a leg in neither. Sums you up about right, Moby.

What our JG fails to note is some of us are carrying out due diligence re biz dealings between EU/ UK - no matter what the outcome - and thus know FAR better how the EU nations - esp our very closest neighbour - with a land border - plan to deal with and take advantage of 'Brexit' ..

What is SCARY is the level of ignorance shown by those who encouraged voting Brexit ...even in N.Ireland..  When confronting one current DUP member about CE markings for manufactured products and asking how the UK - post Brexit - hoped to sell goods with CE marks - conforming to stds set by the EU - the guy didn't have a CLUE and stammered ..

Loads of consultants are be paid a fortune to advise the Govt how to deal with these scenarios ..and how the UK can retain influence in the drawing up of such stds...

A frigging waste of money - but fine if one benefits ;)







Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 28, 2018, 02:53:51 AM
What our JG fails to note is some of us are carrying out due diligence re biz dealings between EU/ UK - no matter what the outcome - and thus know FAR better how the EU nations - esp our very closest neighbour - with a land border - plan to deal with and take advantage of 'Brexit' ..

What is SCARY is the level of ignorance shown by those who encouraged voting Brexit ...even in N.Ireland..  When confronting one current DUP member about CE markings for manufactured products and asking how the UK - post Brexit - hoped to sell goods with CE marks - conforming to stds set by the EU - the guy didn't have a CLUE and stammered ..

Loads of consultants are be paid a fortune to advice the Govt how to deal with these scenarios ..and how the UK can retain influence in the drawing up of such stds...

A frigging waste of money - but fine if one benefits ;)
Yes, yes. One has heard about Mobys due diligence. Is that why you had your creditors after you?
Here, yet again, we see the swan song of the remainers. How Leavers are ignorant....and so on.
Don’t you ever learn from your mistakes?
Sorry, it’s Moby we’re dealing with here. He’ll never admit a mistake let alone learn from one.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 28, 2018, 03:56:40 AM
Moby,

Any manufacturer, or importer can affix the CE markings themselves via auto-certification.  Easy peasy as long as the articles conform to EU regs and the manufacturer or importer can document and certify as such.  With the majority of goods this is usually not an issue regardless where they are made.

Where can I send the bill for a million or two ?  :)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 28, 2018, 05:04:50 AM
That's true BC, I buy goods all the time from China with CE markings. I don't think Moby realise that the EU have to do trade with other countries for their economies to do well not just trade with each other within the EU. Indeed there are plenty of small countries around the world that do well without being a member of the EU or similar sized organisation.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 28, 2018, 10:20:32 AM
Trench,
of course you can't just slap a CE sticker on some items like meds, lots of agricultural products etc etc  but for the proverbial salad shooter... Yeah it's just a sticker.  Products such as automobiles etc can be a bit more complex since they undergo regular inspections and checked rather closely when imported. For higher end stuff and things that might do more than cut a finger most will use qualified certification firms i.e. TüV but most likely for product liability purposes and customer confidence.

The main challenge for producers is to make their products meet requirements of as many markets as possible.  Just look on some product cartons.. there are all kinds of stickers and certifications.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 28, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Yes, yes. One has heard about Mobys due diligence. Is that why you had your creditors after you?

Now you ARE being stupid...   Posting bollox you read from someone else elsewhere ?! You will know...I didn't change my mobile number / email

HOW many posters will try to bring up bollox about my off board life rather than the issue ?))))

  ...  Please name  ONE person / company that you think I owe money to ....  you ARE an internet idiot ...

I didn't do a 'Trampu'  and stiff anyone



Here, yet again, we see the swan song of the remainers. How Leavers are ignorant....


Well, you are .... the forecast economics dips came and you STILL tell us all is 'good' or deny we are already FAR worse off ...  even the Chancellor of Exchequer and Bank of England chief  tell you what you won't hear


Don’t you ever learn from your mistakes?

Boy, I've made enough for more than one lifetime and the irony of your question is delicious ....


Sorry, it’s Moby we’re dealing with here. He’ll never admit a mistake let alone learn from one.

INCORRECT

When I post daft I'm happy to admit it and learn - you might like to try it ....

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 28, 2018, 12:28:13 PM
Moby,

Any manufacturer, or importer can affix the CE markings themselves via auto-certification.  Easy peasy as long as the articles conform to EU regs and the manufacturer or importer can document and certify as such.  With the majority of goods this is usually not an issue regardless where they are made.

Where can I send the bill for a million or two ?  :)

BC - I hope you seriously don't charge others for that 'advice' ? ..... 

First the question is :

What sort of item is it and ( in the case of electronics ) does it STILL comply - even if it has pre-approved ( individually) CE components when assembled on a PCB in a case for

EMC

RoHS - now another CE std in it's on right - but you can look up the number !   

AND .. if being used for vehicles ... will it cause RF  interference ?

IF you wish to discuss what the FCC would pass that EC standards won't I can advise ;) [I've become an 'expert' in the past three months

We can self-certify MOST of the EU stds - but NOT the EMC ones




Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 28, 2018, 02:38:07 PM
BC - I hope you seriously don't charge others for that 'advice' ? ..... 

First the question is :

What sort of item is it and ( in the case of electronics ) does it STILL comply - even if it has pre-approved ( individually) CE components when assembled on a PCB in a case for

EMC

RoHS - now another CE std in it's on right - but you can look up the number !   

AND .. if being used for vehicles ... will it cause RF  interference ?

IF you wish to discuss what the FCC would pass that EC standards won't I can advise ;) [I've become an 'expert' in the past three months

We can self-certify MOST of the EU stds - but NOT the EMC ones


In your rush to petulance, you obviously did not comprehend what I wrote:

Quote
Easy peasy as long as the articles conform to EU regs and the manufacturer or importer can document and certify as such.

Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 28, 2018, 02:50:02 PM
Just for entertainment, read http://cemarking.net/ce-self-certification/

(http://i68.tinypic.com/aeppvo.png)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 28, 2018, 04:43:03 PM
In your rush to petulance,

'twas neither childish nor bad tempered ...just playing a big part of my life and you touched a raw nerve
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 28, 2018, 11:19:53 PM
Now you ARE being stupid...   Posting bollox you read from someone else elsewhere ?! You will know...I didn't change my mobile number / email

HOW many posters will try to bring up bollox about my off board life rather than the issue ?))))


Well, you are .... the forecast economics dips came and you STILL tell us all is 'good' or deny we are already FAR worse off ...  even the Chancellor of Exchequer and Bank of England chief  tell you what you won't hear


Boy, I've made enough for more than one lifetime and the irony of your question is delicious ....


INCORRECT

When I post daft I'm happy to admit it and learn - you might like to try it ....
Typical Moby response......stupid, daft, bollox.

Offboard? Your form is plastered across these boards.

You’re just an argumentative tosspot, Moby. Almost every thread is polluted with your ‘DAFT BOLLOX’.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 28, 2018, 11:50:12 PM
Typical Moby response......stupid, daft, bollox.

It is noted you fail to deal with any point fib you raised ..


Offboard? Your form is plastered across these boards.

Ah, so your ( personal ) and off-topic  'facts' DO come from hearsay ? ;)

You’re just an argumentative tosspot, Moby. Almost every thread is polluted with your ‘DAFT BOLLOX’.

Don't keep it bottled up . speak your mind .....and thanks for dealing with my points / questions / observations in a meaningful, reasoned 'riposte'


Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on September 29, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
'twas neither childish nor bad tempered ...just playing a big part of my life and you touched a raw nerve

Ahh ok. No biggie.

Sometimes easier to let bare bones go and let others gnaw on spittle ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 29, 2018, 01:31:17 AM
It is noted you fail to deal with any point fib you raised ..


Ah, so your ( personal ) and off-topic  'facts' DO come from hearsay ? ;)

Don't keep it bottled up . speak your mind .....and thanks for dealing with my points / questions / observations in a meaningful, reasoned 'riposte'
I’ve already said in a previous post there’s no point in engaging in meaningful discussion with a pillock like you. It doesn’t exist. ( meaningful discussions, that is)

Hearsay????. That’s exceedingly rich, old chum.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 29, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
Ahh ok. No biggie.

Sometimes easier to let bare bones go and let others gnaw on spittle ;)

You should know by now, BC..I'll never learn - but don't hold grudges ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 29, 2018, 11:04:39 AM
I’ve already said in a previous post there’s no point in engaging in meaningful discussion with a pillock like you. It doesn’t exist. ( meaningful discussions, that is)

Hearsay????. That’s exceedingly rich, old chum.

To repeat :

Being called a 'pillock' by an internet idiot who gets 'personal' and repeats bollox from someone else's shyte he read doesn't made what you posted any less 'true / factual'

Back on topic ..

BBC NI constantly covers 'Brexit' paying particular attention to the border question - the 'backstop' scenario - and I've consistently warned 'Brextemists' that the DUP will simply not tolerate such a scenario - but cannot afford to be seen to support a hard  Brexit - as they'd face electoral annihilation  ( NI is pro remain 70-30 )

If one doesn't understand what this means for a 'hard Brexit' ..  There can't be one - the Govt will be toppled, first

 

Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 29, 2018, 12:41:01 PM
To repeat :

Being called a 'pillock' by an internet idiot who gets 'personal' and repeats bollox from someone else's shyte he read doesn't made what you posted any less 'true / factual'

Back on topic ..

BBC NI constantly covers 'Brexit' paying particular attention to the border question - the 'backstop' scenario - and I've consistently warned 'Brextemists' that the DUP will simply not tolerate such a scenario - but cannot afford to be seen to support a hard  Brexit - as they'd face electoral annihilation  ( NI is pro remain 70-30 )

If one doesn't understand what this means for a 'hard Brexit' ..  There can't be one - the Govt will be toppled, first
Your repeated denials doesn’t mean that ‘shyte’ didn’t occur. Typical Moby, ducking and swerving his way through life.

The Beeb is your gospel, it seems. Carry on believing, always good for a laugh.
As for your ‘theories’ on Brexit, like I’ve said, not worth my time, Mr Pillock.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 29, 2018, 11:56:00 PM
Your repeated denials doesn’t mean that ‘shyte’ didn’t occur. Typical Moby, ducking and swerving his way through life.

JG, you are a VERY confused person ..

It's bad enough that you re-peat bollox gossip ( you know I'll 'deny' as I KEEP pointing out it's shyte) as some sort of attempt to 'belittle' my experience and why I'm not looking forward to UK out of the EU

But to suggest I'm 'ducking and swerving' when it's clear to any normal person - when an Internet idiot is repeating said shyte - havibg NO evidence to support his stance and not knowing his 'opponent' - suggests you may need serious help as to what constitutes STUPID..


We can see who is fibbing in a simple test ... Name WHO I 'stiffed' and the chances are I still do biz with them

You see ... YOU truly are the person - having made the slur - several times - that should be proving it ...;)))

The Beeb is your gospel, it seems.

I can't get the regional ITV news on SKY receivers ... but CAN watch the BBC regional news from anywhere.... Please tell us where we'd watch NI politicians being questioned - nightly - on another media ? ....



As for your ‘theories’ on Brexit, like I’ve said, not worth my time, Mr Pillock.

..yet here you are.. FAILING and just making up stuff ...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Blighty on September 30, 2018, 11:42:24 AM
NI is pro remain 70-30 

I have never commented in this thread before! Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales should remember how much they are subsidised by England ... see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40248345

I am Europhile although voted for Brexit in both 1975 and 2016 on economic grounds. For the record, Project Fear changed me from a reluctant Remainer to a Brexiteer during the last referendum debate. Even Jeremy Hunt today has compared the EU to the USSR and accuses the 'EUSSR' of holding us 'prisoner'!

Just my tuppence worth in this debate!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on September 30, 2018, 08:55:42 PM
Project Fear was fact all along ....

£300 million/ week 'savings' ...Let;s put  which campaign truly fibbed in perspective
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on September 30, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
Good chance there's going to be a 2nd referendum on Brexit? It's only the beginning of October, if there's a “significant” number of Tory MPs who would be prepared to back a second referendum now by the start of 2019 there'll probably be even more Tory MPs looking to have a 2nd referendum.

The date for the UK to leave the EU is 11pm local time March 29 2019 so schedule the 2nd referendum for some time around the beginning of February and a vote to stay in the EU will probably pass.   

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/final-apos-significant-apos-number-080458599.html
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on September 30, 2018, 10:45:27 PM
JG, you are a VERY confused person ..

It's bad enough that you re-peat bollox gossip ( you know I'll 'deny' as I KEEP pointing out it's shyte) as some sort of attempt to 'belittle' my experience and why I'm not looking forward to UK out of the EU

But to suggest I'm 'ducking and swerving' when it's clear to any normal person - when an Internet idiot is repeating said shyte - havibg NO evidence to support his stance and not knowing his 'opponent' - suggests you may need serious help as to what constitutes STUPID..


We can see who is fibbing in a simple test ... Name WHO I 'stiffed' and the chances are I still do biz with them

You see ... YOU truly are the person - having made the slur - several times - that should be proving it ...;)))

I can't get the regional ITV news on SKY receivers ... but CAN watch the BBC regional news from anywhere.... Please tell us where we'd watch NI politicians being questioned - nightly - on another media ? ....


..yet here you are.. FAILING and just making up stuff ...
Of course you’re going to deny. That’s all you do.
Nothing to prove here or elaborate on, you know exactly what I’m talking about and I’m sure so do others. It’s been discussed at great length, hasn’t it?

The fact you watch the Beeb says it all. No wonder your so muddled.
If, according to you, I’m failing, then I take comfort that you have already failed.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on October 01, 2018, 01:17:05 PM

Nothing to prove here or elaborate on, you know exactly what I’m talking about and I’m sure so do others. It’s been discussed at great length, hasn’t it?t[/b

'Discussed' by a bunch of clueless internet idiots ....   who have no more idea of my personal circumstances than they do about  'Brexit' :ROFL:

My question was VERY specific .... WHO did I ''stiff'?  Will you now demonstrate the VERY behaviour you laughingly suggested for me ?

Here's a clue..

Certainly not SKY ....  I have both private and commercial dealings with 'em ..IN MY NAME - using the same contact number ..

Bank?  I was with Nat West Biz...  I am in credit with them and the overdraft caused bythe said financial institution has long gone ...and NOT paid  off by me or negotiated away ...it was paid off

PLEASE entertain me - for you have been a MUG ....


The fact you watch the Beeb says it all. No wonder your so muddled.
If, according to you, I’m failing, then I take comfort that you have already failed.

Another JG, "AVOID ANSWERING THE QUESTION..."

AGAIN : Please tell us how you could watch N.I TV news from other side Ireland ...other than the BBC ... ?   


You might like to try viewing / listening - it might stop you posting DAFT by discussing my personal life/ affairs, instead ...

Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on October 08, 2018, 09:29:48 AM
Interesting. The 4th journalist murdered.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/journalist-viktoria-marinova-raped-murdered-bulgaria-181007175756258.html

Bludgeoned head, decapitation, car- bombings, etc...maybe Leavers do have a point in leaving the EU.

 :-\
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on October 08, 2018, 10:41:24 AM
Oh no!!

Quote
The minister took to Twitter Sunday, saying Italy may close its airports like it closed its seaports due to illegal migrants...

http://nam-dev-cdn.awspreprod.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/07/matteo-salvini-threatens-close-italys-airports-prevent-repatriation/

Gee, I hope not. EU's open border policy and all...the nerve of Salvini to do such a thing! Shocking!!!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on October 08, 2018, 12:14:36 PM
Leavers do have a point in leaving the EU.

 :-\

So, exposing corrupt businessmen (- if that is the reason she was killed -)   DEFRAUDING the EU  means BG should 'leave' ?

Based on that 'logic' States should be ceding from the Union when they see laws / decisions that could effect laws which they disagree  ...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on October 08, 2018, 03:06:57 PM
So, exposing corrupt businessmen (- if that is the reason she was killed -)   DEFRAUDING the EU  means BG should 'leave' ?

Based on that 'logic' States should be ceding from the Union when they see laws / decisions that could effect laws which they disagree  ...


Who knows, msmob. Hence the word 'maybe'...


Decapitation, car bombings and journalist getting shot dead while he and his wife were asleep...I'm sure are serious enough crimes that the EU is all over these heinous crimes. Let's just hope this recent murder (Veronika) is a random unfortunate event and not related to these scandalous crimes involving misuse of EU-funds...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on October 08, 2018, 10:53:54 PM
Did you guys figure out who killed Kennedy, yet ? .....
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on October 09, 2018, 08:23:43 AM
'Discussed' by a bunch of clueless internet idiots ....   who have no more idea of my personal circumstances than they do about  'Brexit' :ROFL:

My question was VERY specific .... WHO did I ''stiff'?  Will you now demonstrate the VERY behaviour you laughingly suggested for me ?

Here's a clue..

Certainly not SKY ....  I have both private and commercial dealings with 'em ..IN MY NAME - using the same contact number ..

Bank?  I was with Nat West Biz...  I am in credit with them and the overdraft caused bythe said financial institution has long gone ...and NOT paid  off by me or negotiated away ...it was paid off

PLEASE entertain me - for you have been a MUG ....
Ah, but then everybody except you is ‘clueless’ in your world.
We can dance around in circles but I’ll let you do that. It’s been discussed at great length and let’s just say what comes of your tongue isn’t very truthful.
Quote

Another JG, "AVOID ANSWERING THE QUESTION..."

AGAIN : Please tell us how you could watch N.I TV news from other side Ireland ...other than the BBC ... ?   
It isn’t about just TV, though, is it?
Quote
You might like to try viewing / listening - it might stop you posting DAFT by discussing my personal life/ affairs, instead ...
But it’s so entertaining......to see you protestvyour innocence and project your virtues.  :clapping: :clapping:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on October 09, 2018, 09:21:07 AM
Ah, but then everybody except you is ‘clueless’ in your world.

It particularly applies to the likes of you - who when they can't think of a valid riposte posts something about my personal life that isn't factual and then skulks off into a dark, damp corner when they realise they posted without thinking ...

We can dance around in circles

I'll leave that pastime for you ...

But it’s so entertaining......to see you protestvyour innocence and project your virtues.  :clapping: :clapping:

You seem confused - correcting a clueless  internet idiot - who repeats an off-topic  lie - rather than dealing with the subject in hand - isn't 'protesting' .... it's a necessity ... I'm assuredly not in the SLIGHTEST interested in your life away from here .... nor 'checking you out'.....     penny dropping ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: John Gaunt on October 09, 2018, 12:20:35 PM
It particularly applies to the likes of you - who when they can't think of a valid riposte posts something about my personal life that isn't factual and then skulks off into a dark, damp corner when they realise they posted without thinking ...
[
My, you actually think you make valid ripostes? You’re just an argumentative old codger who hasn’t got a life away from these boards......

Quote

You seem confused - correcting a clueless  internet idiot - who repeats an off-topic  lie - rather than dealing with the subject in hand - isn't 'protesting' .... it's a necessity ... I'm assuredly not in the SLIGHTEST interested in your life away from here .... nor 'checking you out'.....     penny dropping ?
Now, now Moby. Calm down dearie. You’re getting all hot and bothered. Of course I’m dealing with the subject in hand, it’s you.
I should hope you won’t be checking me out, I don’t bat for the other side. I should be grateful for small mercies.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on October 09, 2018, 01:05:37 PM
My, you actually think you make valid ripostes?

Indeed and backed up with examples ..

You might like to try it ..

I note you can't / won't answer who I'm supposed to have stiffed or suggesting another source - other than the Beeb - to view TV news outside Ireland..

You'd do MUCH better asking questions
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on November 20, 2018, 12:06:09 PM
Yup...it's only a matter of time before these guys begin cannibalizing each other again...They are really falling apart from the seams.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/19/inenglish/1542616239_995569.html

This time I hope the US not intervene....
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on November 20, 2018, 01:36:22 PM
LMAO! You knew winter always have a softening effect on Europeans towards Russia. Talk about a fox guarding the hen house!

http://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russian-is-nominated-to-lead-interpol-alarming-western-officials-1542723109

What a joke!
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on November 20, 2018, 09:26:44 PM
Yup...it's only a matter of time before these guys begin cannibalizing each other again...They are really falling apart from the seams.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/19/inenglish/1542616239_995569.html

This time I hope the US not intervene....

Well, now - here we have the SoCal 'expert' on all things European and and 'alcohol abuse' issues [  ;) ] 'at it', again ..

As a 14 year old kid I was brave enough to stick out my tongue at an image of Franco and if these lasses choose to bear their breasts to wind up a bunch of fascists - FAIR PLAY to 'em

I think the Spanish Police coped and there was no need to call the US for 'support' - given the shock a bare boob seems to have when seen on  a beach  ..!

 :popcorn:

Title: EU Issues
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 20, 2018, 10:23:04 PM
One of the problems with feminism is that they seek to aggressively shout down anyone who won't submit to what their line is, fascist anyone? I think people should be allowed to get on & do and think what they like without aggreasiness feminists or anyone else imposing their will or taking issue. One of the problems we have these days is people taking it upon themselves to take issue with what others are doing, feminists are one such group that does this. They speak out and all off a sudden it is taboo to do or speak this or that, absolutely ridiculous. Feminism is at the heart of society becoming such a bad place to live in the west.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on November 20, 2018, 10:33:55 PM
I'd love to see our Trench 'lecture' a FEMEN supporter ;)

I would not want to be a target of their 'wrath' - but what 'danger' were three topless lasses with slogans on their fronts / backs to democracy ...  ?

Trench, under Franco, Spain was an authoritarian regime ...  for most of his dictatorial rule ...

As you'd be told in Belfast, "Wise up, wee maun" ..

Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on November 20, 2018, 10:37:43 PM
One of the problems with feminism is that they seek to aggressively shout down anyone who won't submit to what their line is, fascist anyone? I think people should be allowed to get on & do and think what they like without aggreasiness feminists or anyone else imposing their will or taking issue. One of the problems we have these days is people taking it upon themselves to take issue with what others are doing, feminists are one such group that does this. They speak out and all off a sudden it is taboo to do or speak this or that, absolutely ridiculous. Feminism is at the heart of society becoming such a bad place to live in the west.

We have one word in the US to describe your statement, ‘Liberals’.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on November 20, 2018, 10:39:58 PM
Well, now - here we have the SoCal 'expert' on all things European and and 'alcohol abuse' issues [  ;) ] 'at it', again ..

As a 14 year old kid I was brave enough to stick out my tongue at an image of Franco and if these lasses choose to bear their breasts to wind up a bunch of fascists - FAIR PLAY to 'em

I think the Spanish Police coped and there was no need to call the US for 'support' - given the shock a bare boob seems to have when seen on  a beach  ..!

 :popcorn:

It’s only a matter of time now. The French, from what I understand, had already began drafting a declaration of surrender. They’re just waiting for a German to show up.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on November 20, 2018, 10:56:33 PM
It’s only a matter of time now. The French, from what I understand, had already began drafting a declaration of surrender. They’re just waiting for a German to show up.

What ?!

Another 'witty riposte' lacking in any substance ?   

No matter what  'they say' about GCQ  - I'm sure he believes he's making a point ...

whilst obfuscating like mad ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on November 27, 2018, 01:55:04 AM
Ironic. Macron still have to come up with $$ to uphold his NATO obligation delinquency on top of this shenanigan.

http://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/24/paris-fuel-tax-protest-macron-france-poverty

So much for utopian promises.

http://youtu.be/Qt2mbGP6vFI
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on November 29, 2018, 03:01:13 AM
I 'missed' the relevance to France defence spending re Phil Collins or fuel prices...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 03, 2018, 05:32:54 AM
I 'missed' the relevance to France defence spending re Phil Collins or fuel prices...

Utopia is burning....

http://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/03/france-fuel-protests-heres-whats-happening-and-why-it-matters.html

So this is what happens when the US doesn’t ratify that silly Paris Accord!  :devil: to think France still has to meet their NATO obligations to boot! Now is the perfect time for Trump to put pressure on the payment.

What an unsustainable system! It’s cannabalizing time!

Paris today, Belgium tomorrow! LOL! Too cool!

http://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/world/europe/belgium-protests.amp.html
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 04, 2018, 07:06:00 AM
That’s too bad....

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna943381

Macron should’ve punished them and not back down like he said he would yesterday. He should’ve doubled the increase and effective immediately.

 :popcorn:
Title: EU Issues
Post by: BC on December 04, 2018, 08:56:37 AM
That’s too bad....

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna943381

Macron should’ve punished them and not back down like he said he would yesterday. He should’ve doubled the increase and effective immediately.

 :popcorn:

shades of BTP

My impression is that the French are quite traditional in their ways of thinking.  Grow up, learn a trade, get hired, work, retire to a relatively comfy lifestyle at a decent age.  Liberté, égalité, fraternité is being infringed upon.  It's more than just gas prices.  What do you think would happen in the US if a gallon of gas cost 7 bucks ;)
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 04, 2018, 11:31:57 AM
shades of BTP

My impression is that the French are quite traditional in their ways of thinking.  Grow up, learn a trade, get hired, work, retire to a relatively comfy lifestyle at a decent age.  Liberté, égalité, fraternité is being infringed upon.  It's more than just gas prices.  What do you think would happen in the US if a gallon of gas cost 7 bucks ;)

We're more than halfway there, BC. I kid you not.

As soon as Gavin Newsome checks in, and with his promise of a massive reshuffling to shape a utopian state (e.g. universal healthcare to include all illegal immigrants BIG thanks to the likes of Fathertime), plus the carte blanche he was handed over with the recent tax-hiking propositions many of our state's ignorant voters helped passed - $7.00-8.00/gal hike is not a question of 'if' but 'when'.

I am empathic for Macron though. Damned if he does, double damned if he doesn't. This is giving Steve Bannon & Marine Le Pen a lot of armament come May 2019, and this fiasco is making it that much easier to upend Macron's party.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: fathertime on December 04, 2018, 12:55:23 PM
We're more than halfway there, BC. I kid you not.

As soon as Gavin Newsome checks in, and with his promise of a massive reshuffling to shape a utopian state (e.g. universal healthcare to include all illegal immigrants BIG thanks to the likes of Fathertime), plus the carte blanche he was handed over with the recent tax-hiking propositions many of our state's ignorant voters helped passed - $7.00-8.00/gal hike is not a question of 'if' but 'when'.

I mostly blame our own lazy society for the influx of illegals we have in California.    They fulfill a need, while many of the natives are enjoying drugs or other leisure.   In terms of them getting health care, of course they deserve to see a doctor if they are injured or suffer an illness. 

Fathertime!   
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 11, 2018, 09:19:48 AM
5 More Years! 5 More Years!

http://www.foxnews.com/world/marcons-attempts-to-quell-riots-in-paris-across-france-knocked-as-charade-by-protesters

Macron has got to be the (2nd) greatest French president of all time! Almost beating the greatest of them all, Jacque Chirac!!

#MFGA!

Quote
"It's a charade," Luc, a pizza chef in Marseille, told Agence France-Presse. "He announces bonuses to be paid by employers but how will they do it? They don't have more money."

 :ROFL:

He's brilliant, really...
Title: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 14, 2018, 09:20:56 AM
This dude is clueless as ever...

Quote
In an effort to defuse the tensions sweeping the country, French President Emmanuel Macron has acknowledged he's partially responsible for the anger behind the anti-government protests. He has announced a series of measures aimed at improving French workers' spending power but has refused to reinstate a wealth tax.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-paris-protests-yellow-vests-20181214-story.html

Partially? LMAO! Burn, baby, burn then...




Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 14, 2018, 11:29:52 PM
Time was when wearing a Yellow vest was a health and safety requirement...

Now they're banned in Egypt and a bunch ( not a very big bunch ) of wack jobs who are scared of a second in/out vote on Europe blocked Westminster Bridge in London ...

I've got a yellow vest in the boot of my car - in case I breakdown - bought it as part of Russian highway rules ... ;)




Title: EU Issues
Post by: ML on December 15, 2018, 08:32:51 AM

I've got a yellow vest in the boot of my car

Boots are something to be worn on feet . . . not a part of a car.

Correct terminology is 'in the trunk of my car.'

And don't give us the crap about boot being the correct word in 'that' country.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 15, 2018, 08:53:46 AM
Boots are something to be worn on feet . . . not a part of a car.

Correct terminology is 'in the trunk of my car.'

And don't give us the crap about boot being the correct word in 'that' country.

'Understood'....

I'll simply remind you that American  'English' is a VERY dumbed down version of the original and best ..with phonetic spelling to help all the non native speakers ...

Now 'behave' yourself lest I have to place you in the trunk  boot of my automobile car, take you on a road-trip journey down the turn-pike motorway on the left hand side of the road in a right hand drive vehicle, stopping for gas petrol, lifting the hood bonnet to check the oil, burning rubber on my tires tyres - not forgetting proper use of  turn signals indicators.

You may have to endure rest-room  toilet breaks, my buying food to go take-aways, my burping after drinking soda lemonade and consider yourself lucky I don't need to stop for
fag breaks....

 
Title: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 15, 2018, 01:06:53 PM
I'll simply remind you that American  'English' is a VERY dumbed down version of the original and best ..with phonetic spelling to help all the non native speakers ...
Ignorant, arrogant, idiotic BS
Title: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on December 15, 2018, 01:38:52 PM
'Understood'....

I'll simply remind you that American  'English' is a VERY dumbed down version of the original and best ..with phonetic spelling to help all the non native speakers ...

Now 'behave' yourself lest I have to place you in the trunk  boot of my automobile car, take you on a road-trip journey down the turn-pike motorway on the left hand side of the road in a right hand drive vehicle, stopping for gas petrol, lifting the hood bonnet to check the oil, burning rubber on my tires tyres - not forgetting proper use of  turn signals indicators.

You may have to endure rest-room  toilet breaks, my buying food to go take-aways, my burping after drinking soda lemonade and consider yourself lucky I don't need to stop for
fag breaks....

msmob again you're showing how little you know of your own past. Modern UK English derived from Middle English which in turn derived from Old English, the earliest form of modern English.

There is some controversy over how Old English developed. It is generally thought to have developed from the various dialects of the Germanic tribes that arrived in Great Britain about the 5th century.

So you see American English is an improvement, a superior form, of a once noble language that so desperately needed improving. Now if the UK will only see the wisdom of central heating, A/C and driving on the correct side of the road we can say that the UK have matured enough to enter the latter half of the 20th century. Getting the UK into the 21th century may require a great deal more work and probably won't happen until at least the latter of this century.
Title: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 15, 2018, 01:57:00 PM
msmob again you're showing how little you know of your own past. Modern UK English derived from Middle English which in turn derived from Old English, the earliest form of modern English.

There is some controversy over how Old English developed. It is generally thought to have developed from the various dialects of the Germanic tribes that arrived in Great Britain about the 5th century.

So you see American English is an improvement, a superior form, of a once noble language that so desperately needed improving. Now if the UK will only see the wisdom of central heating, A/C and driving on the correct side of the road we can say that the UK have matured enough to enter the latter half of the 20th century. Getting the UK into the 21th century may require a great deal more work and probably won't happen until at least the latter of this century.

Over the last 250 or so years American English has changed less than British English.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 15, 2018, 02:05:46 PM
msmob again you're showing how little you know of your own past. Modern UK English derived from Middle English which in turn derived from Old English, the earliest form of modern English.

DaveNY,

Seriously.... ? You're 'lecturing' me with such bollox ? ..

'Even' I know that the 'proper English' spoken on the right side of the Atlantic Ocean is also a basterised combination of tongues of those who controlled / occupied the British Isles ...from Saxon, Celtic, Viking, Germanic tribes, Roman ( Latin) Saxon, Norman ( French) .... followed by nearly 1000 years of slow evolution. ( No further invasions )..

'You lot' managed to 'debase' it in 250 years ...

So you see American English is an improvement, a superior form, of a once noble language that so desperately needed improving.

You mean most of you can't spell properly - because you've been taught awful geography / history / 'English' ( incorrectly naming nations that existed before yours)  ?

Now if the UK will only see the wisdom of central heating, A/C and driving on the correct side of the road we can say that the UK have matured enough to enter the latter half of the 20th century. Getting the UK into the 21th century may require a great deal more work and probably won't happen until at least the latter of this century.

))

Modern UKs homes have c.heating / insulation / double glazing ( at least )  and rare are the days when aircon is necessary in the temperate climate of our fair isles ( i.e. we don't have Winter or Summer - just AUTUMN ( what's this 'Fall' ? ) and Summer

Also our homes don't fly off in strong winds ...

You keep saying you've lived in the UK / Russia - yet I constantly find cause to wonder given your bizarre recollections

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 15, 2018, 02:21:13 PM
Over the last 250 or so years American English has changed less than British English.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english

She DEFINITELY lives in a dark corner of the internet ..

http://www.christinero.com/ (http://www.christinero.com/)

" I get it, enough with the self-promotion already!"

VERY few Brits or Irish will EVER say "enough ... already" - unless of Jewish extraction or eastern Europeans - like Russians -  and their equivalent of уже..

So, you'll excuse me if I find the article you linked to and her own website as verging on the spectrum  ..

From the same BBC website area:

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170904-how-americanisms-are-killing-the-english-language (http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170904-how-americanisms-are-killing-the-english-language)

"Despite having been born, raised and educated on British shores, it seems my mother tongue has been irreparably corrupted by the linguistic equivalent of the grey squirrel."





Title: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 15, 2018, 02:47:04 PM
She DEFINITELY lives in a dark corner of the internet ..

http://www.christinero.com/ (http://www.christinero.com/)

" I get it, enough with the self-promotion already!"

VERY few Brits or Irish will EVER say "enough ... already" - unless of Jewish extraction or eastern Europeans - like Russians -  and their equivalent of уже..

So, you'll excuse me if I find the article you linked to and her own website as verging on the spectrum  ..

From the same BBC website area:

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170904-how-americanisms-are-killing-the-english-language (http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170904-how-americanisms-are-killing-the-english-language)

"Despite having been born, raised and educated on British shores, it seems my mother tongue has been irreparably corrupted by the linguistic equivalent of the grey squirrel."
The information in my posted article is historically accurate. Do your own research if you doubt it. If the British are using Americanisms, more power to them.  :clapping:

http://the-toast.net/2014/03/19/a-linguist-explains-british-accents-of-yore/
Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 15, 2018, 09:01:45 PM
The information in my posted article is historically accurate.


T wast a wacky opinion back'd up by some 'int'resting conclusions', arriving from subjective opinions...

How Shakespearean / 'American' does that sound to you ?


MY article was FAR more accurate


Title: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 15, 2018, 11:28:08 PM
T wast a wacky opinion back'd up by some 'int'resting conclusions', arriving from subjective opinions...

How Shakespearean / 'American' does that sound to you ?


MY article was FAR more accurate

You've missed the point regarding OP.  But read this and keep weeping.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/new-fangled-american-words-and-spellings-which-are-rooted-in-old-england/

Title: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 16, 2018, 12:56:28 AM
You've missed the point regarding OP.  But read this and keep weeping.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/new-fangled-american-words-and-spellings-which-are-rooted-in-old-england/

fie! cometh h're and englut mine own coxcomb thee distemperate daw

doth thee not realise at which hour thee readeth the mindless ramblings of anoth'r ?
Title: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 16, 2018, 02:20:08 AM
fie! cometh h're and englut mine own coxcomb thee distemperate daw

doth thee not realise at which hour thee readeth the mindless ramblings of anoth'r ?
I'm reading those ramblings now.
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 16, 2018, 03:04:43 AM
I'm reading those ramblings now.

Sounds REAL American, huh ? ;)

Come on, did you really fall for that guff from Ms Ro ? !
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 16, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
Sounds REAL American, huh ? ;)

Come on, did you really fall for that guff from Ms Ro ? !
Sounds REAL British? No.
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 17, 2018, 01:00:14 AM
You've not been to Stratford on Avon, then

They still talk like that there....
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: mhr7 on December 17, 2018, 01:33:02 AM
You've not been to Stratford on Avon, then

They still talk like that there....
As does the drama club at the local high school.
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 17, 2018, 03:07:30 AM
As does the drama club at the local high school.

What's a 'high school'?

Do you mean Secondary School - as in after 11 years old kids leave Primary School and when we are 18 - and have some gumption - we begin Tertiary education ..?

Is this more funny N.American 'English' ?
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 17, 2018, 05:34:51 PM
 
:ROFL:


http://youtu.be/8Y9WL_wDAv0




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46585237 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46585237)
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on December 18, 2018, 12:24:46 AM
Firstly, I'd like to thank mhr7 for the discussion on N.American 'English' and it's 'origins'

He is a contributor who I respect for his wit and brevity of words - even if we disagreed on his 'affirmation article' ;)


Now we come to GQB

I don't see much that is 'funny' about folk violently protesting anywhere about anything anywhere...Especially, when many of those involved just enjoy the chance to be involved in gratuitous violence and cannot see that they are being played ..

I'm not sure if wearing a yellow vest - if my car breaks down is wise ...... it MIGHT be perceived as me becoming some sort of anarchist or ultra-right, unthinking, thug

Anyway

Seasons Greeting to all - even you Trenchie ;)

 


 



Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on December 18, 2018, 03:54:17 AM
:thumbsup:

http://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/17/croatia-violating-eu-law-by-sending-back-asylum-seekers-to-bosnia

Very smart! Although not sure what EU law they’re breaking. No different than hiring armed militants to pushback migrants. EU/Italy/U.N. has been doing the same thing.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1B11XC

Crazy!
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: GQBlues on April 03, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
Vive Le France!   :o

http://youtu.be/c8FF7_Lojxw

As Theresa May moves to try and ban your common 'knives' in the UK...  :P

http://www.oann.com/5-stabbed-in-u-k-knife-rampage/
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on April 03, 2019, 12:21:48 PM
Vive Le France!   :o

http://youtu.be/c8FF7_Lojxw

As Theresa May moves to try and ban your common 'knives' in the UK...  :P

http://www.oann.com/5-stabbed-in-u-k-knife-rampage/

People say we have problems in the US? Our problems are nothing compared to what's happening in the UK and France.
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: msmob on April 03, 2019, 03:24:34 PM
You are from Canada and your PM has problems
Title: Re: EU Issues
Post by: DaveNY on April 03, 2019, 04:14:44 PM
Who the f**k is changing my profile?