Former Soviet gymnast, Tatiana Gutsu, accusses teammate of Rape.

[Boethius]

From what I hear in Ukraine/Russia few cases get far especially if it's seen that there was some sort of relationship rather than a stranger in assault type of situation. Here with there drink being involved and such time passed I can't see the any FSU authorities intervening at all. The Russian media for starters have dismissed her credibility and apparently that is reflective of Russian society.

Rape is not a common crime in Russia or Ukraine. Far less prevalent than, say, the UK.

[msmob]

Rape is not a common crime in Russia or Ukraine. Far less prevalent than, say, the UK.

But is that because it is not worth reporting - as it used to be in the UK - from the women's perspective  ?

[ML]

But is that because it is not worth reporting - as it used to be in the UK - from the women's perspective  ?

Boe, I have the same question.
I have heard from several FSU folks, both male and female, that police and prosecutors often never do much when rape claims are reported.
Particularly those involving acquaintances.
i.e. You went with him to apartment . . . what did you expect was going to happen??

[Boethius]

Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.


As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.

[Trenchcoat]

Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.


As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.

This makes sense to me. I find it annoying where women complain of being raped when they have willingly gone with a guy. The worst was the fairly recent change a few years back in the UK where 'marriage rape' became open to prosecution. I mean for heavens sake if the woman does not want sex with the man she is married too then she was at fault for marrying in the first place. In other words the woman married for something other than love thereby giving the guy a false impression. Similar to with relationships, if a girl gives the guy the impression she's in love with him but has some other agenda and is being phoney to him then she only has herself to blame for putting him under the wrong impression. I wish our take on rape was more like Russia, fair enough to protect women from all oncomers having a go I'lld say.

[Boethius]

You really have some pretty neanderthal views, Trench.

I will agree that if a woman has sex with a man and later regrets it, then rape has not occurred, and that in the current climate, such cases can, and at times are, prosecuted.  However, if a woman changes her mind, then it doesn't matter if she went with the man, he does not have the right to force himself on her.  I've known lots of women who were raped (yes, RAPED) after being with a man in a situation where they could not escape.  Most were young and inexperienced.  The thought of a man forcing himself on that woman never occurred to her.  So should these women just be forced to accept a rape because they showed bad judgment?

A marriage where a man has to force himself on his wife isn't much of a marriage, and is basically an animal rutting.  The man would be better to go to a prostitute, who at least for some time, will fake that she is enjoying the experience.

[mhr7]

Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.


As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.

That 1 in 5 is not date rape but "nonconsensual or unwanted sexual contact".

http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

[Boethius]

It's sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.


http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

[mhr7]

It's sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.


http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

Date rape involves forcible penetration, 1 in 5 don't report this.

[Anotherkiwi]

Says who? She does. So on the basis off her say so she was raped end off.

It is you who are missing the point Kiwi - she needs evidence to prove her claim - she has none. The only other possible witness to the event, her team mate, a female actually backs up the guy not her.

Of course there's no "evidence" after all this time - it's what guys rely on in so many cases.  Scare the girl enough, and she won't report it or, if she does, it will be so long after the fact that there's nothing physical to find.  And have you even wondered why her team mate won't back up her story?  Of course you haven't - that would require thinking about something you've never experienced (and hopefully never will).

She meanwhile states that she was both drunk, and had been unconscious. She also failed to notify the German authorities of the alleged rape at the time and did nothing for the odd 27 years or so.

See above.  Here you have a superstar in the sport using his legendary status to not only ensure that his victim will be too scared of the possible consequences to go to the authorities, but making sure that the only witness to whatever happened will also stay quiet.

So the point you are missing is that you cannot state that she was raped until it is proven. As the saint goes innocent until proven guilty. This has not been even brought before any authorities let alone a court case. I really don't think it will unless something really damning comes to light since there is not a leg to stand on. When your only possible witness (assuming she was conscious) who is female will not back her up it pretty much falls flat on it face.

Being unconscious/asleep and claiming rape does not automatically make it so. It still needs to be proven as does if a girl accepts a drink and claims she was raped, it still needs to be proven, you can't just say a guy provided the drink hence he's motives in providing the drink are automatically deceitfull. I think you will find I'm right on this

I'm not sure what's sadder - that you think that this behaviour can be excused, or that you actually believe the bullshit you're spouting.  I've already tried to put this in words of one syllable just for you Trench, but obviously I've failed big time.  Let me try again.

1.  You cannot possibly give consent to sex if you are unconscious.  How hard is that to figure out, even for you?  There is a hell of a difference between long term lovers waking each other up with some sort of sexual act, and the scenario described in this case.

2.  The girl was 15 at the time.  While I accept that she wasn't legally under the German age of consent for sex, she was certainly under the legal drinking age.  Therefore, even if it might be thought of as a small crime, supplying alcohol to a minor is still against the law.  That it was done for the apparent purpose of rendering this girl either unconscious or simply incapable of resisting the advances of the man is sickening.

In any case, consent to have sex must surely be informed - and that counts out most drunk teenage girls, whether or not they've passed out by the time the guy takes off their clothes.

[Trenchcoat]

Think this case in the news here today highlights why I think Russia has got it right not to get involved in alleged rape cases where there was a relationship.

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42365521

The Police deliberately withheld evidence that completely exonerated this guy in order to try and get him convicted. Downright *ssholes if you ask me, they were essentially out to ruin this guy and in my mind as guilty as her. Goes to show Police here are still dodgy and not to be trusted, the Michael Stone case is another one that came to light recently and no doubt many others where they have only been interested in convicting whomever they desire. Just imagine if the girl had kept quiet and not spouted out all that stuff to contradict herself despite feeling that way the guy may have been convicted and gotten 12 years and life ruined just on the basis of her say so with him just being left to plead that it was 'consensual' and be disbelieved because he was a man. And FSW women wonder why some western men want to move to Russia, lol.

[ML]

But the reality is, the messages really don't 'prove' he was innocent.

i.e.  Man and woman can have consensual sex 1,000 times, but woman can still truthfully claim rape if she doesn't want it the 1,001st time.

So this is a real tricky area where ongoing relationships are involved.

Comes down to a case of which one the judge/jury believes in he said/she said cases.

I know at university fraternities, it has been suggested that the guy keep a written signed statement of the gal agreeing to each of several steps leading up to penetration.

Should there be different prosecution and sentencing guidelines involved for unknown (to each other) persons; known persons but first time sex; continuing relationship sex?

[ML]

Also there are interesting but heartening cases where female friends of the claimed victim have come forward to provide testimony against their friend and for the man.

Just in news this week was case involving university football player (one of the groups seemingly involved in a lot of rape claims).

The gal's girlfriends came forward to tell of phone messages/texts the claimed victim sent them from bathroom telling how she was enjoying the encounter and going back out to continue.

And a few years back a case involved a university basketball player.  Gal claimed rape, but her girlfriend told how the gal had talked with her later and laughed about how she let the guy perform oral on her and then pretended to be asleep when it was her turn to perform.

[Trenchcoat]

Think she may have left messages a little while after the alleged rape lusting after him. Sounds like she was being a b*tch. In any case due to the lack of evidence of rape, these tapes & the with holding of them it fell flat. I think in this instance it really was a case that there was no rape.

I've heard of the university thing it's real ridiculous and just not a feasible solution, it's more like a joke it's so ridiculous. Thing is I don't see the path of trying to stop sexual assault as leading anywhere decent. I think we will all end up fearing each other and any idea of having a relationship and live miserable lives as a result. Meanwhile the sexual predators will continue to do what they've always done and prey on women it's in their genes. It's hey I think FSU has the only real solution, it doesn't solve it or try to. It helps to keep it from becoming an awkward issue and rightly goes after the weirdos who randomly prey on women in the street. It puts to the woman either be in a relationship with this man and all that may come with it or don't - your choice and none of anyone else's responsibility to be burdened with. I've loosely come across a relationship fallout in one of my previous jobs where I had to assist the girl in getting some moron of her back, I really didn't appreciate being used as a break up tool in her relationship. Way I saw it it was her choice to date the moron so she should have done due diligence and be careful who she thought worthy of going out with and consider the consequences of things if they go south. Having a ystem whereby there is none of that, the girl just runs off and dump someone else with sorting out her relationship fallout just means these girls become careless with whom they date. I sorted her problem out though of couse even though I could have done without it.

[Anotherkiwi]

Think this case in the news here today highlights why I think Russia has got it right not to get involved in alleged rape cases where there was a relationship.

Are you still trying to weasel your way out of all the crap you wrote earlier in this thread?  In Tatiana Gutsu's case, there WAS no relationship, so how is this post relevant?

...And FSW women wonder why some western men want to move to Russia, lol.

What on earth has this case got to do with ANYONE wanting to move to Russia?