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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407929 times)

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Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #300 on: April 17, 2014, 12:35:08 PM »
BillyB-

When you find yourself with nothing else to say, refrain from doing so because if you do not, more often than not, you begin to fabricate things along the way and actually start believing them. Worst, you begin to start using it to express your your views in an attempt to engage anyone in a discussion. You just make yourself look really bad in people's eyes. So you come full circle. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Again, when you have nothing else to say, refrain from doing so.


That 67% who didn't see anything wrong were probably monitoring the elections in west Ukraine.

Citation please, or state that as your opinion.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 12:37:23 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #301 on: April 17, 2014, 12:54:56 PM »
More on internet censorships, intranet, web restrictions, etc....

Guys, be careful believing that countries like Iran, China, Russia, India, etc...have very limited, if not censored altogether, access to information via the internet. That can prove dangerous to your internet browsing experience (virtual ignorance).

Consider for a moment, if peoples in these countries can infiltrate, hack, scan, spam, turn-off your TV sets, make you morning coffee, walk your dog - all from the comfort of their highly-restricted and censored computing locations; don't think for a minute they won't have the same full access you do to those silly media-regurgitated *biased news reports* we, here in the *free world*, enjoy everyday.

About the only thing they will likely have difficulty doing is directly asking you if you're done with the sport's page.

Access to any online service censored or not, your novice, savvy and expert will find a way to get to get around the censorship. Problem here GQ, your average end user of the internet has no knowledge or tools to do so. The gubmints doing the censoring don't care much about those, it's the masses that concern them.


Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #302 on: April 17, 2014, 01:11:15 PM »
BillyB-

When you find yourself with nothing else to say, refrain from doing so

Again, when you have nothing else to say, refrain from doing so.



When losing a debate, it doesn't help your argument when you tell people to shut up.....twice in the same post.


That's ok, you don't have to agree with me and you may not want to admit it in public but deep down, you and LivefromUkraine know Putin is correct in that Ukraine would not elect a pro Russian president in a fair, UN monitored election otherwise taking over Ukraine would be so much easier without all this drama.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #303 on: April 17, 2014, 01:51:36 PM »

When losing a debate, it doesn't help your argument when you tell people to shut up.....twice in the same post.


That's ok, you don't have to agree with me and you may not want to admit it in public but deep down, you and LivefromUkraine know Putin is correct in that Ukraine would not elect a pro Russian president in a fair, UN monitored election otherwise taking over Ukraine would be so much easier without all this drama.


 According to your own logic, Yanu isn't Pro Russian.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:59:14 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #304 on: April 17, 2014, 01:54:23 PM »

When losing a debate....

LOL. No need for elaboration of my previous post.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #305 on: April 17, 2014, 02:09:44 PM »
Access to any online service censored or not, your novice, savvy and expert will find a way to get to get around the censorship. Problem here GQ, your average end user of the internet has no knowledge or tools to do so. The gubmints doing the censoring don't care much about those, it's the masses that concern them.

While I may understand your point of view expressed in this post, FP...I'm not quite sure I would agree with it. Maybe partially if any consolation but even then that likely would fall more on the *wishful thinking* category.

First off, and just from our local perspective...can you tell me exactly how much of the super-information highway we enjoy that you feel is neither censored, filtered, screened, withheld, etc.? Personally, I wouldn't know and I would believe not too many within 'our' masses could either. Unless  of course you can with great certainty and would like to share (?)

For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country - at that time?

How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?

Maybe now you know, but how much of the truth were you aware that when Obama and some in the senate was told of the fact that the whole "you can keep your plan" fiasco was just not true but was kept from us until way after the *law* had taken effect?

I could go on with a few more but hopefully you get the idea...

As for the US masses, seriously now, based on the last 2 presidential elections, I simply cannot put too much faith in the manner of how our *masses* process whatever information they have on hand these days.

Additionally, without any information on exactly how much the masses of China/Iran/Russia actually have available at their disposal, in addition to how much is available with us, how can I ever even begin to compare apple to apple?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 02:25:53 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #306 on: April 17, 2014, 02:11:23 PM »
It was done a few times. Three weeks ago over 100 rioters were arrested in Donetsk, a week ago about 80 protestors were arrested in Kharkov. All turned to be Ukrainians.

SBU (security service of Ukraine) detains on regular base russian "diversants" like this 22 y.o. one, who is claimed to be FSB coordinator of unrests in Nikolaev:



A good example of the propaganda war. 

On Monday, Belvis introduced us to 22 yo Maria Koleda.  She is a Russian citizen still being detained by Ukraine's counter-intelligence services, who allowed CNN to interview her.  CNN is a respected news organization.   CNN reports that Maria claims she is a journalist, yet when CNN researched the organization she claims to represent, CNN discovered it last published in the 1920s. 


http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/04/17/pkg-damon-russian-provocateur.cnn.html

(Maria's case starts at the 1:20 mark).

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #307 on: April 17, 2014, 02:27:13 PM »

For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country?

How much information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?

Maybe now you know, but how much of the truth were you aware that when Obama and some in the senate was told of the fact that the whole "you can keep your plan" fiasco was just not true but was kept from us until way after the *law* had taken effect?

I could go on with a few more but hopefully you get the idea...


Was that information even available?  Suppressing available information would be one thing but not releasing it is a different matter, imo.


Quote

As for the US masses, seriously now, based on the last 2 presidential elections, I simply cannot put too much faith in the manner of how our *masses* process whatever information they have on hand these days.

Additionally, without any information on exactly how much the masses of China/Iran/Russia actually have available at their disposal, in addition to how much is available with us, how can I ever even begin to compare apple to apple?


The media is big business now and we can't rely on them.  Look at Ron Paul being blacked out on almost all mainstream media outlets even though he was in second place. 


I would say that there is so much disinformation that it is hard to even discern fact from fiction.  I believe most people will be lazy enough not to put in the effort to figure it out and rely on the first news piece they come across.

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #308 on: April 17, 2014, 04:26:09 PM »


For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country - at that time?

How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?




I agree with this....our govt often does its own censoring by not telling us the truth, after which the falsehood is repeated by the media ad nauseam.   That is a form of censorship just as effective, perhaps more so than trying to block websites.  Sometimes I'm not convinced we hear 1/3 of the real truth about things, BUT many think we do...although less and less do continue to believe. 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline cc3

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #309 on: April 17, 2014, 07:35:00 PM »
Just an observation, this time round there doesn't seem to be anything on the social media of western countries about moves to boycott Russian made crap in order to punish them. Normally for a significant world event, there would be some activist groups attempting to do something like that.
Russia doesn't make anything worth owning except military hardware for the third world dictatorships.

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #310 on: April 18, 2014, 10:05:36 AM »
How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?




Obama and Hillary handled the terrorist action poorly and blamed it on a video. They aren't going to tell the truth because it hurts their image just like if they told the truth on lack of interest in Obamacare, it hurts their image. But there is no conspiracy or bigger issue at play than Obama and Hillary trying to save face due to poor reaction and deflecting blame regarding Benghazi. It's important to Obama the world is a safe and friendly place and no terrorism happens on his watch.


As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.


Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Online Hammer2722

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #311 on: April 18, 2014, 10:16:44 AM »


Obama and Hillary handled the terrorist action poorly and blamed it on a video. They aren't going to tell the truth because it hurts their image just like if they told the truth on lack of interest in Obamacare, it hurts their image. But there is no conspiracy or bigger issue at play than Obama and Hillary trying to save face due to poor reaction and deflecting blame regarding Benghazi. It's important to Obama the world is a safe and friendly place and no terrorism happens on his watch.


As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #312 on: April 18, 2014, 10:25:35 AM »
...As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.

Which part of this are you struggling to understand?

>>According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....<<


You have been the one speculation that any future elections to be deemed legitimate must have outside observers participation. Well, there WERE outside participation in the last 2010 presidential election and they universally stated and reported no impropriety and further elaborated the election to be *a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine*

...Ukraine should be allowed to have UN monitors in their country to watch the elections without outside interference....

Having raised that information to you, now you're peddling UN's participation. Questions of transparency is just that, questions. They found them to be *UNFOUNDED*. Any following statement that advocated these allegations to be unfounded, means just that - UNFOUNDED.

Did you even know that OSCE is a multi-nation MILITARY observer that also includes Russia? OSCE is the organization in charge of election observation.

Here's their report relating to that 2010 Presidential Election:

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010

Quote
...According to the mission's final report: "The presidential election met most OSCE commitments and other international standards for democratic elections and consolidated progress achieved since 2004. The process was transparent and offered voters a genuine choice between candidates representing diverse political views. However, unsubstantiated allegations of large-scale electoral fraud negatively affected the election atmosphere and voter confidence in the process."...

***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***

The dictionary defines *unsubstantiated* as follows:

>>not supported or proven by evidence.<<

So for the life of me...what exactly are YOU having trouble understanding here, BillyB? Dude...you've been inhaling way too much dirt dust. Take a break.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 10:39:46 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #313 on: April 18, 2014, 10:34:41 AM »

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?


Absolutely. The whole goal of Obamacare is to get all Americans health insurance which means it should focus on the uninsured Americans, not the insured. Before Obamacare over 45 million Americans didn't have health insurance. After Obamacare, there's still almost as many uninsured. Many of those who signed up on Obamacare already had private insurance that was cancelled or had their rates go up. When Obama can get almost all the uninsured people to sign up, then he can start talking success.


***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***



I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #314 on: April 18, 2014, 10:35:47 AM »

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?


8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.

Online Hammer2722

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #315 on: April 18, 2014, 10:54:02 AM »

8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

Offline Maxx2

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #316 on: April 18, 2014, 10:54:54 AM »

8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.


Good point. If Obamacare is so desirable then why do they have the IRS enforcing it? How can you tell what is love making and rape? The knife at the throat gives you a hint. People having to accept $12,000 a year deductibles is people whop are not covered. If you had to pay big insurance company premiums plus a yearly deductible that size wouldn't you not go to the doctor unless as a last resort? Many people are going to die because they didn't catch things in time. The AFFORDABLE Health Care act is an obamanation.

Offline Maxx2

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #317 on: April 18, 2014, 10:56:39 AM »

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.


Does your Belarusian wife know about your poor girlfriend?  :D [size=78%] [/size]

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #318 on: April 18, 2014, 10:57:49 AM »
...I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.

It's on a PDF format, so I am quoting the following for you. http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/41595


Ukraine, Presidential Election, 17 January and 7 February 2010: Post-election Interim Report No. 1

Publisher: Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe        Date: 23 February 2010
(click on the 'English' tab)
Post-Election Interim Report
8-20 February 2010
Section IV - Complaints and Appeal; Page 3; Last Paragraph:
and I quote:

Quote
...On 20 February, on the second day of the court hearing, Ms. Tymoshenko filed a motion requesting that her complaint challenging the election result be withdrawn. This was after the HAC had denied her request to call as witnesses members of PECs, DECs and Observers. After five hours of deliberations, the HAC granted Ms. Tymoshenko the motion to withdrew her complaint (13). Ms. Tymoshenko stated that she would not challenge the result in any other court. On the same day, President Yushchenko congratulated Mr. Yanukovich as the legitimately elected President of Ukraine and signed the decree for his inauguration....

End quote.


I'm convinced you're clinical. jb once called this site an 'asylum'. I didn't realize he was being literal.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 01:28:25 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Maxx2

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #319 on: April 18, 2014, 11:02:13 AM »
I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.


Ah Billy, both are as crooked as a dog's hind leg. It shouldn't be "My country right or wrong. My mother drunk or sober."

Online Hammer2722

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #320 on: April 18, 2014, 11:02:26 AM »

Does your Belarusian wife know about your poor girlfriend?  :D

We are not married yet, lol
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #321 on: April 18, 2014, 11:04:58 AM »

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.

The majority of those who signed up were exactly like your GF - freeloaders. Most of those folks were already on Medicaid.

This administration won't even release the information as to exactly how many of those who signed up are actually paid subscriber. This is why the plan had to take monies from Medicare to help finance this stupid law. The program will be subsidizing healthcare centers and hospital for at least 2 years. If the *paying* people doesn't increase in numbers within the program...it's dead on the water and everyone is really phocked. People had to be paying into the program to finance the society's freeloading losers like his stupid Aunt. You don't get enough paying folks in the program, it's screwed. That is why its always been held as unsustainable.

That is largely why the Union didn't want any part of this stupid law and since they were major contributor to Obama's election, he is giving the Union a free pass. If the law implodes, the Union may have to implode along with it if they didn't get that pass.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 11:09:13 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #322 on: April 18, 2014, 11:19:23 AM »

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.


The amount of money they threw at this thing would be considered a failure in the real world.


This is the way I look at it, if it has worked out like they wanted, there would be no reason not to release the data from the signups.  Obamacare needs the young people to pay for the old.  I doubt many younger people signed up since it is only a small tax hit (this year) compared to what they would pay for higher insurance. 


Don't forget they made catastrophe insurance illegal now which is what most young people would purchase.  They postponed this, for after elections, but those will have to pay up for better coverage even if they don't want it.


There is no national security at risk for this so there should be no reason why these numbers can't be released.  6 million sign ups should not be a gauge for success since we don't know the breakdown of that data.  If there isn't enough young people the whole system will fail. 


I feel for the young people since they are just starting out in life, trying to build a career and now they have pay up for all of the old people and freebie seekers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 11:25:20 AM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #323 on: April 18, 2014, 01:24:24 PM »
Which part of this are you struggling to understand?

>>According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....<<


You have been the one speculation that any future elections to be deemed legitimate must have outside observers participation. Well, there WERE outside participation in the last 2010 presidential election and they universally stated and reported no impropriety and further elaborated the election to be *a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine*

Having raised that information to you, now you're peddling UN's participation. Questions of transparency is just that, questions. They found them to be *UNFOUNDED*. Any following statement that advocated these allegations to be unfounded, means just that - UNFOUNDED.

Did you even know that OSCE is a multi-nation MILITARY observer that also includes Russia? OSCE is the organization in charge of election observation.

Here's their report relating to that 2010 Presidential Election:

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010


***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***

The dictionary defines *unsubstantiated* as follows:

>>not supported or proven by evidence.<<

So for the life of me...what exactly are YOU having trouble understanding here, BillyB? Dude...you've been inhaling way too much dirt dust. Take a break.

Fine - that covers the Presidential election.  What about the latest Rada elections?  Were they monitored and given the all-clear (sort of) in the same way?

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #324 on: April 18, 2014, 01:30:44 PM »
Fine - that covers the Presidential election.  What about the latest Rada elections?  Were they monitored and given the all-clear (sort of) in the same way?

Illegal impeachment of a duly elected President make any/all actions thereafter illegitimate.
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