The Propaganda War

[GQBlues]

...
BTW, I NEVER skip my morning coffee.  ...

LMAO!

Well then, in light of your present display of emotional unraveling, maybe you should have.

You're a fine case study sampling of the point I was making to Boethius. I'm glad you happily volunteered for the exercise.

 

[ghost of moon goddess]

LMFAO


I'm listening to Vitaly Churkin addressing the UN security council and man, he sounds exactly like our cool and sexy dude. I wonder if Churkin has been receiving talking points from GQ.

Accusing the Accuser with the same charge thus not holding any responsibility in addressing the charge, but simply throwing the charge back 

[Gator]

Accusing the Accuser with the same charge thus not holding any responsibility in addressing the charge, but simply throwing the charge back 

Sounds like my wife!  And a number of other RW I had the pleasure of knowing. 

[fathertime]

The reason Ukrainians on this forum have stated Russia is behind this, not the US, is because we know our history.   

And one of the reasons why us US citizens (and others) have suspicions about some US involvement is we know our history. 


 Fathertime! 

[TheTraveler]

Boethius-

See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective.

exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...

[TheTraveler]

And one of the reasons why us US citizens (and others) have suspicions about some US involvement is we know our history. 


 Fathertime!

exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?

[BillyB]

exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?

America spreads democracy around the world. Other countries spread their brand of crap. If America did nothing outside of our borders from here on out, we would be out of business in less than 100 years. There are plenty of countries hungry for land grabs and to grow in power. The only thing stopping them is the thought of America's reputation for getting in their way.


For the investment of spreading democracy and letting our economies be affected by sanctions, it seems Obama and Europe is going to get little for their return. Putin is determined to take some or all of Ukraine. When it come to renegotiate contracts pertaining to gas, he will pass on the costs to the consumer, they guys putting sanctions on Russia.


A few guys think NATO has a reason to get involved. Russia invading is violating Ukraine's sovereignty. Budapest Memorandum comes to mind.

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-invasion-breaks-budapest-memorandum-may-prompt-nato-action-1672790

[Boethius]

exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...

HAHA.  Am I supposed to be insulted by being labelled a "lowly secretary".  By a eunuch who resorts to posting passive aggressively, attempting to insult in an indirect manner, rather than addressing a poster directly?

I'm not a secretary, but if I were, I would not find it a demeaning position and would have no trouble posting my occupation. That post reveals a great deal about you, in that you posted it assuming it is somehow an insult.  Go and tell your wife her position as a a community college educated teen bride/housewife is worth nothing to you, you snob.

Everything I have posted about Ukraine is confirmed by at least three independent sources and, consequently, can't be labelled propaganda.  That is contrary to GQ's assertions of conspiracy at the hands of the U.S. and EU, which is speculation, at best.

Today, there are satellite images of Russian military movement within Ukraine's borders, released by NATO.  The terrorist leader has admitted, and it has been confirmed by a Russian official, that Russian soldiers are fighting among the terrorists.  Of course, they claim these are "soldiers on vacation", as if conscripts would use their vacation time to become cannon fodder in a foreign country. 

I did not post propaganda about the Muscovites who lead the so called "DPR" and "LPR".  Those Muscovites were interviewed first hand and admitted they were Russian nationals with no ties to Ukraine.  A couple of them even admitted directly to having served in the Russian government, in various capacities.


I am certain a ragtag group of former miners would have the capabilities to launch sophisticated GRAD missiles, operate surface to air missiles with exceptional precision, and operate the most recent Russian tanks, not even getting into how they managed to acquire all this sophisticated weaponry, which is generations ahead of what their Ukrainian army counterparts operate.

All of the above are first hand accounts, dismissed by stooges of the Russian government as "propaganda" because the truth of what is occurring is too shameful for them to admit.  So, as unthinking as you are, I am not at all surprised you would label it "propaganda". 

[Boethius]

  See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective. I mean look at Muzh. He probably skipped his morning coffee and got all caught up Googling information. Emotion, while sometimes endearing, can be destructive to reason and logic. He'd get a heart attack if he isn't careful.Luhansk, the targeted destination for this 'aid', was already under rebel control for months leading up to this moment just as pathways of travel from Russia. Why then even try to attempt to do *what they conceivable can do at any time*, under the guise of humanitarian flagship?

But it was not under rebel control at the time of Russia's humanitarian convoy.  Key areas of the city were retaken by Ukraine in mid July, and, at the time of Russia's announcement, the rebels had been encircled.  So no, Luhansk was not under rebel control. 


With the encirclement of Luhansk, the Ukrainian army was moving to encircle Donetsk, and had recaptured part of the city.  Odd how with the "humanitarian aid", rebels have more equipment and men, is it not?   The whole point of that aid was to aid the terrorists, and to ensure the Ukrainian army's victory, which was on the cusp, did not occur.

As for the 'shared' trade and co-op between Ukraine and Russia dealing with military ware, you can say whatever you want to say about it, but the bottom line is, the 'sensitivity and exclusivity' lies solely with Russia.

The point is, there is no exclusivity.  Ukraine owns the technology, it can sell that technology to whomever it wishes.

[Gator]

The purpose of Russia's incursion is now apparent.  The Ukrainian military in recent weeks had virtually encircled the separatists and was pushing them into an ever smaller defensive position.  This would soon lead to the defeat of the separatists and taking prisoners including many Russians.   

Such a defeat would be unacceptable to Putin.   So Putin sent in just enough troops to divert the Ukrainian military from its offensive action.  The separatist movement now remains undefeated and in fact could once again take the offense.   

It is surprising that an incursion of only an estimated thousand regular Russian troops with armor could stop the Ukrainian military.   The big issue is whether there will be direct combat between regular Russian and Ukrainian units. 

This conflict will no end soon.  It not only destabilizes Ukraine, it is emptying its coffers.  Then comes the winter, and Russia will probably stop shipments of gas to Ukraine.  Ukraine needs a lot of help to rid itself of the big, bad Russian bear.  Putin is waiting for Ukraine to beg for forgiveness.

That's my uneducated opinion.  Yours may differ. 

[fathertime]

Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?

 I read today that Putin was telling separatists not to shoot at retreating Ukrainian troops but if Russian troops start dying in mass he may change his tactics and start obliterating anyone fighting against him.  Nobody in the region wants it to reach that point, although I won't be surprised if U.S. strategists are ok with it, as an alternative to Russia continuing to have control over the region.

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?

I'm afraid we will not be receiving a refund.  We are almost certainly in for much more than 5 billion.  Our main objective has been to thwart Russia but in this case it appears to be exacerbating the situation.

Fathertime!

[Muzh]

exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...

So, if you want to get factual news go here. 

[Muzh]

Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?

 
Fathertime!

Putler: Listen Petro, I will take eastern Ukraine.
Poroshenko: Why would you do that?
Putler: It's a win-win situation. I get what I want and you get nothing. Even Fathertime says it is a win-win situation and you cannot argue against that!
Poroshenko: Well, if Fathertime said it is a win-win situation I guess I should give you half of the country and submit the rest to your every whim.

[Belvis]

Too much politics in forum dealing with FSUW. I'd like to combine both topics, and animate the discussion.

What attitude do RW have  toward Putin? By other words their stance in the current  conflict. Well, it seems they support him:


UW and RW at Donbass are taking part in the war, as we can see in the following photos:

Team of rebels


Escort girls on Ukrainian Independence Day in Donetsk. Rebels   parade captured Ukrainian soldiers:


Rebel girl at a blok-post:


Marriage of rebels in Donetsk. Left, reputed commander of a small unit from Russia,  his fiancee is a local figthing in his unit.

[fathertime]

Putler: Listen Petro, I will take eastern Ukraine.
Poroshenko: Why would you do that?
Putler: It's a win-win situation. I get what I want and you get nothing. Even Fathertime says it is a win-win situation and you cannot argue against that!
Poroshenko: Well, if Fathertime said it is a win-win situation I guess I should give you half of the country and submit the rest to your every whim.

What? Where did you find that? Did they actually mention me?  I didn't know my win-win theory was gaining national prominence.  Can you find out if they need a middle man to assist in negotiations?  I'd be delighted to lend a hand.

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

I was just browsing the net and saw that Ukraine is now practically 'begging' to be a part of NATO.  One could liken that to getting into an auto accident and trying to buy insurance retroactive to the day before the accident. 


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GS10C20140829



Fathertime!   

[AC]

This conflict will not end soon.  It not only destabilizes Ukraine, it is emptying its coffers.  Then comes the winter, and Russia will probably stop shipments of gas to Ukraine.  Ukraine needs a lot of help to rid itself of the big, bad Russian bear.  Putin is waiting for Ukraine to beg for forgiveness.

That's my uneducated opinion.  Yours may differ.

Very good analysis.  Considering that President Obama is very much a paper tiger, and Putin very much knows it, there's not too many other options for Ukraine right now, but to inflict as many casualties as possible on Russian regular troops and to hope for a small concession from Russia at the bitter end.

[GQBlues]

...By a eunuch who resorts to posting passive aggressively, attempting to insult in an indirect manner, rather than addressing a poster directly?...

LOL. How convenient.

Does that apply only to those who oppose your stance but not to those who support your opinions? I get these little silly warning from the board every time I allegedly do this when I respond to those *passive aggressive post attempts to insult instead of addressing a poster directly* -

So, did you get the same warning when you called another an eunuch? I bet you didn't, did you as I don't see a little green word that says "Watched" on your profile. LMAO..

Now, I'm not going to be one of the stooges here who are bonafide crybabies as I don't give a rat's arse whether I get banned or not, so don't think I'm complaining. I'm merely citing the comedy of it all.

MOD 3, are YOU reading this?

...
But it was not under rebel control at the time of Russia's humanitarian convoy.  Key areas of the city were retaken by Ukraine in mid July, and, at the time of Russia's announcement, the rebels had been encircled.  So no, Luhansk was not under rebel control....

Read OSCE's reports during the days of this convoy leaving for Luhansk. The Ukrainian military along with its band of mercenaries were still happily bombing the city with impunity during the time of this convoy.

You also conveniently omitted one very important piece of information where the ICRC reported, while it didn't accompany the convoy through its journey, that they were there monitoring at the drop sites.

...With the encirclement of Luhansk,...

Exactly right. But not knowing what the parameters are regarding how far the encirclement is doesn't mean they 'controlled' the city/ All they were doing from those positions were bombarding the city with their grad missiles. Who else do you think they were bombing other than civilians?

...The point is, there is no exclusivity.  Ukraine owns the technology, it can sell that technology to whomever it wishes.

1. Take note this discussion *assumes* there were items taken out, and if so, are of noted items.
2. *Technology* is intellectual property. You don't need to 'load' them up on semis. The product or prototype created from this *technology*, if there had been any, would have already been consigned to an entity that *paid* for it.

Again, Luhansk had been under rebel control for months...if there had been sensitive information left in town, chances are their removal from the premise would have been done on the onset, Boethius.

BTW - why is it on August 8th did Ukraine, Belgium, the Netherlands and Australia signed a non-disclosure of the results of the MH-17 investigation? Do you know?

What's your take on that? I thought the investigation were being conducted to find out what happened and who actually did caused the downing of the MH-17.

Also, Ukraine nor Russia ARE NATO members...does it strike you strange that NATO is front and center in most every development of this conflict IF they are NOT complicit to any of this?

Boethius...those cables were classified communications between US embassy in Kiev and Washington DC.

[Gator]

Too much politics in forum dealing with FSUW. I'd like to combine both topics, and animate the discussion.

What attitude do RW have  toward Putin? By other words their stance in the current  conflict. Well, it seems they support him:

Thanks Belvis.       I smiled but could not laugh given the grave situation that is worsening.   

And thanks for enlightening me that I can not tell a pro-Russian from a pro-Ukrainian.  And the commonality is far more than skin deep.  It goes to the core, to the mother blood. 

Am I missing something when I say your Ukrainian cousins simply want to have  a better life.   Yes, their government has failed miserably to do such during their 20 years of independence, yet was Ukraine in those times really independent of old ways?  They want change, and it starts by having closer ties with Europe.   I believe that is the only difference between you and them.  We are not talking differing ideologies (Reds vs. Whites, Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.).

I understand that the goal of closer ties with Europe gave the impression that Ukraine may try eventually to become part of NATO, and that did rattle the cage of Kremlin and its concerns about border security.  Yet, I thought Ukraine still wanted to maintain a close relationship with Russia even as its European trade increased.

Am I missing something?    I ask you as an educated  human being in the modern world:

1.  How do you feel about Russian military killing your cousins, and vice versa? 

2.  Do you consider the Ukrainian government to be a form of Nazism?

3.  Do you feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors, weapons and whatever else is needed to assure SE Ukraine becomes a New Russia?   

4.   Do you believe that the NATO satellite photos of Russian tanks in Ukraine are fabricated, and are actually taken from a computer game, or that Putin simply does not care what the world thinks?

5.  Do you feel that you are totally free to answer such questions? 

[Boethius]

GQ, my post was not directed at you.

[missAmeno]

«НАМ СКАЗАЛИ, ЧТО МЫ НА УЧЕНИЯХ. А НА УЧЕНИЯХ, ПОЙМИТЕ, МЫ СТРЕЛЯЕМ ПО КАРТОНКАМ, А НЕ ПО ЖИВЫМ ЛЮДЯМ». ИНТЕРВЬЮ С ЗАДЕРЖАННЫМИ КОСТРОМСКИМИ ДЕСАНТНИКАМИ

Translation:

"We were told that we are on training. And on trainings, understand, we shoot at a piece of cardboard, rather than living people. " Interviews with detained Kostroma paratroopers

http://tvrain.ru/articles/ekskljuziv_dozhdja_nam_skazali_chto_my_na_uchenijah_a_na_uchenijah_pojmite_my_streljaem_po_kartonkam_a_ne_po_zhivym_ljudjam_intervju_s_zaderzhannymi_kostromskimi_desantnikami-374751/

«УКРАИНА ВМЕСТЕ С ЗАПАДОМ ЖИЛИ В ИЛЛЮЗОРНОМ МИРЕ, СЧИТАЯ, ЧТО БОЛЬШАЯ ВОЙНА В ЕВРОПЕ НЕВОЗМОЖНА». СТАНИСЛАВ БЕЛКОВСКИЙ О ТОМ, ЧЕГО НА САМОМ ДЕЛЕ ХОЧЕТ ПУТИН

Translation:

"Ukraine with Western countries lived in a fantasy world, believing that a major war in Europe is impossible." Stanislav Belkovsky about what actually wants Putin

http://tvrain.ru/articles/_ukraina_vmeste_s_zapadom_zhili_v_illjuzornom_mire_schitaja_chto_bolshaja_vojna_v_evrope_nevozmozhna_stanislav_belkovskij_o_tom_chego_na_samom_dele_hochet_putin-374757/

[missAmeno]

Россияне создали в Facebook группу «Груз 200 из Украины в Россию»

Translation:

Russians have created a Facebook group "Load 200 from Ukraine to Russia"

http://inforesist.org/rossiyane-sozdali-v-facebook-gruppu-gruz-200-iz-ukrainy-v-rossiyu/

В Госдуме потребовали от Минобороны РФ объясниться из-за гибели россиян на Донбассе

Translation:

The State Duma demanded an explanation from the Russian Defense Ministry aboutf the death of the Russians in the Donbas

http://inforesist.org/v-gosdume-potrebovali-ot-minoborony-rf-obyasnitsya-iz-za-gibeli-rossiyan-na-donbasse/

[missAmeno]

Родись в России.
Живи в России.
Вступи в ряды ВС.
Воюй в Украине.
Умри в Украине.
Вернись в Россию, или не вернись: все равно тебя похоронят тайно
Вооруженные силы России: никто не забыт, кроме тебя

Born in Russia.
Live in Russia.
Join the ranks of the Armed Forces.
Fight in Ukraine.
Die in Ukraine.
Come back to Russia, or not come back: you will still be buried in secret
Russia's armed forces: no one is forgotten, but you

[missAmeno]