Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Trip Reports => Topic started by: odba on February 04, 2018, 10:12:10 AM
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Since some took over the trip report I started with irrelevant stuff, I m writing one here.
I was approached by Mila Lobunko in September of 2016 on this forum offering to introduce me to her friends. I think she monitors the Starting Out section for new clients. Since I was very busy with work, I was finally able to go in February 2017. Why did I choose to engage her? Because of recommendations on this forum. I was also cautioned against using her services but I didn’t listen.
My expectations for this trip were that I wanted to meet sincere women who were interested in a life partner like I was. All I wanted was introduction. If I happened to meet someone I liked a lot, I planned to pursue her. I was no hurry and I had some expectations and I wasn’t going to settle. If I didn’t meet anyone worth pursuing, no big deal and I would try again.
I chose to not use many of Mila’s offerings such as pick up from airport (I arrived by train from Kiev and had the hotel arrange a taxi pickup for 240 UAH) and apartment booking. I recall she charges $40 for airport pickup. Less than $10 vs. $40. I flew back to Kiev and again the hotel arranged taxi for me. Used booking.com to book a hotel for $40/night. I had no interest in the overpriced services.
I understood before I went what I will have to pay Mila. $50/introduction, $20/hr for interpreting. I didn't need Mila’s taxi service which was $70/day and I thought it was excessive and I had no need for a driver waiting. I had the hotel order taxi for me when needed and it was very cheap. While affording all of Mila’s services was easy, I didn't wish to waste money. No, I am not “greedy.” I was happy to meet the ladies in nice restaurants, give them money for taxi, etc.
We met in a restaurant for the first time in the hotel I was staying at. The lady I was supposed to meet was almost an hour late. Lady came, we ate lunch. No connection and I moved on. I paid Mila and later realized she charged me one hour interpreting fee while we were waiting too. I didn’t think I should pay her for that as there was no interpreting. I didn't care to make a big deal but should have questioned that as I think it set a bad precedent for the rest of the time I was there.
She showed me many new profiles while I was there. She was indignant at my refusal to meet a couple of the women whose profiles she had sent initially. She said "I don't understand why you won't meet with them. They are so pretty." I had already said no. That should be enough. Obviously, more women I meet, more she gets paid. I was focused on who I was interested in, not everyone she wanted me to meet. I had also declined to meet a new lady who is very attractive. Looks are not everything. I am suspicious when all I hear is how pretty someone is.
Next day I met two ladies near the hotel and I walked to both places. Again, no connection. I moved
on. I paid Mila for the day. I had to correct Mila for the amount she quoted me, as it was too high. Perhaps a mistake.
Next day I met two more ladies. This time I had the hotel call a taxi for me and went to the restaurant. Lovely lady. She spoke some English. I didn't feel a connection. We went to another restaurant nearby for lunch with another lady. Now, this lady I liked. She was cheerful, spoke good English which was a relief for me. I will call her S. I paid Mila for the day and went back to the hotel. I asked to see S again.
Next day, we met two more ladies. the first one had her birthday that day. So, I brought her flowers and candy at Mila’s suggestion. I thought it was excessive for a first meeting but I am new to Ukraine and perhaps that is something people do over there. No connection. Met with another lady later in the afternoon. I used Mila’s taxi service for the return to hotel. At the end of the day I paid. Again the amount was too high for the day. I had to correct again. Once it is an oversight. Multiple times, it is a trend. Perhaps the calculator on her latest & greatest iPhone was faulty.
Next day we met another lady near my hotel for breakfast. By now I was having second thoughts about this whole thing. I decided to keep going as I wanted to see S a second time and perhaps I could meet another lady that would interest me. Mila was late. I and the lady were seated and she didn’t speak a word of English. Had to use Google Translate which I found to be buggy. This lady was an interesting character. She was flirty and she asked questions like what I thought about mutual sexual generosity. hmm...ok. I asked Mila about the bill (while the lady was in the powder room) as it seemed to have too many entries for the amount of food we ordered. I was told it is accurate. Didn't believe that. Perhaps they charge for use of spoons, forks, knives too. I didn't care to push anymore as the expenditure itself was not a concern. It is peanuts compared to cost of eating a meal in nice restaurants here. And the restaurant didn’t take credit cards just that day.
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I told Mila that I don't need her for the second meeting with S that evening. She said S wants her there. S speaks pretty good English. Why does she need an interpreter? We spent the dinner talking in English. I paid Mila for being there while we talked in English. I should have said something and stopped there. I viewed it as nothing but cash grab. But I liked S and I wanted to keep going. What is $40 for two hours of interpreting nothing and free meal, if S happens to be the right one? I needed to find out if S is the one I should pursue.
Next day I met the flirty lady for a bowling outing at Mila’s suggestion. I got there by taxi called by hotel. We went bowling and had late lunch afterward. She is a possibility I thought. But later on the more I thought about it, I felt that I would be settling. And I wasn’t going to settle.
We met two more the next day. Nothing. Moved on.
I returned home and kept in touch with S.
The final straw...I sent flowers to S one day through a florist in Kharkiv. I can do this stuff from 5000 miles away without needing someone in Kharkiv to do it for me. Within an hour, I got an email from Mila asking me why I did that and not through her. Why do I need Mila to do this? Why the bleep do I even have answer this question? We had an unpleasant email back and forth. I thought I was a bit rude in the exchange and offered an apology. There was never an agreement or discussion with Mila that I would continue to pay her for something like this. Why did S even tell Mila? I am a grown ass man. S is a grown ass woman. We don't need a greedy (American version of the word) middleman to handle these things. Mila said the S is like a sister to her and she wouldn't care if I sent flowers directly to someone else. Yeah, right. That back and forth made it clear for me that she is only interested in me paying her so she can make money. Fine. We all want to make money. Some of us do that in a non-sleazy fashion.
Very shortly after that email exchange with Mila, S told me she is too busy with activities and friends to communicate. I realized that I was had by these two. It is quite a coincidence that S wanted no part of me when I didn’t use Mila to send flowers. That told me they were only interested in financial benefit and nothing more. I believe now S was never really interested from the beginning. It was my fault to not see that. I don’t know if she was used by Mila or got something to meet with me besides free food and money for taxi. I didn’t do a good job of judging intentions. That is my fault. After 18 years of marriage, my game was way off.
I was furious at myself for not seeing signs correctly to head this off. I moved on and focused on work. I made a number of mistakes on this first attempt and I knew I had a lot to learn when it comes to Ukrainian women. The best way to succeed was to move forward and not stew over this. The money I paid her is a drop in the ocean. I was mad at wasting time in snowy & icy Kharkiv. I would have much preferred a beach & fishing vacation in the Caribbean.
Just like osis from his trip report, I had asked Mila while I was there about marriages that resulted from her matchmaking business. She showed me photos of one couple on her iPhone. I recall she said the man is from Sweden. So, one marriage in many years of being in business. That was another clue I missed. It seems a marriage/relationship is an unexpected outcome. I went the matchmaker route and I picked the wrong one. There are matchmakers in Kharkiv who seem to have dozens of marriages resulting from their services. I just had to make the worst choice.
One thing I noticed is that there was hardly any conversation about what I was thinking during the week. Never asked me what I thought about her service. Barely any questions to me about what I thought about each lady after I had met them. This was more like a money transaction and free meals each day. She is clearly a money-grubber. I feel it is strictly about how much cash she can get out of the man. She has no qualms about pushing the boundaries of what is right & wrong.
I do not recommend Mila Lobunko to anyone as a matchmaker.
I had since returned to Ukraine to meet 9 ladies after communicating with them on few free sites. Met one who I thought was a good match but that fizzled out after a few weeks. I had one requirement. The ladies had to speak some English. The search continues.
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Odba, very good and thorough write-up.
In today's world of dating websites, email, Skype, English speakers in most foreign hotels and restaurants, etc., . . . there is really no need for personal 'match makers.'
They are probably mostly used in these modern times by those who have zero social skills and need hand-holding. When dealing with such guys, the match makers come to think of us as very stupid and easy to get a lot of money from. So they come to rely on that business model which is focused on maximum money extraction, rather than on actually helping to find a true long term partner.
So when thrown into that business model, even those who are not stupid and not lacking in social skills will be subject to the same money extraction process.
Some years ago when guys still relied a lot on Marriage Agencies (as opposed to dating websites), there were comments that honest Marriage Agencies actually could not compete with the dishonest ones, and so they became dishonest over time also.
I think a similar thing happens with once honest match makers and interpreters.
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I'm guessing the stream of men that keep coming to said terp/agent is endless so in the end it becomes, 'what the hey'. After all it probably becomes tiresome honestly trying to hook people up and they still keep coming no matter what. If more money can be extracted through dubious ways then does the agent really have a vested interest in actually trying to find this person someone. For me at least two trip reports like this and the in depth way you have described it Odba certainly suggest to me to stay away from Mila and these antics. A case of difficulty getting the middleman out the way once involved it looks here just like back in the old agency days.
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Odba, I'm sure everyone appreciates you coming here with your trip report and I'm sure Mila will reply with her version in due course. I have used her services twice in the past, and might be regarded as one of those that recommended her. But I hope you understand that I can see both sides of the story and hopefully I can remain impartial. I've got no horse in the race, so to speak.
I sense some shortcomings from both sides, and absolutely do understand some of the things you say. I do also sense some frustration that you didn't meet 'the one', but you didn't have any success when you went alone either - so YMMV and we can have the right 'luck' or 'chemistry' sometimes whatever route you go down. With hindsight, I should have posted a trip report back in the summer - good and bad - and I appreciate now how influential and valuable they are here.
Trench - why do you insist on imposing your infinite wisdom on subjects (and in this case somebody's service/livelihood) that you know ZERO about and have ZERO experience with?
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I think people act in accordance with their circumstances. There is also a cultural divide here. I don't think the $20 charge for the woman who was late is unfair. You are buying time, even if the woman was one Mila arranged. You could have left when she didn't appear after 15 minutes.
I suspect the email on the flower arrangement was not intended in an accusatory way, but rather, a "why didn't you use me, what could I have done better" way, even if not so worded. This is again a cultural miscue, as FSU societies are not generally as polite as are Western ones, so the manner in which Ukrainians communicate with Westerners in English is different.
I have no dog in this fight, and I am not trying to defend Mila in any way whatsoever, but I do understand the society.
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I would say, people act in accordance with their circumstances. There is also a cultural divide here. I don't think the $20 charge for the woman who was late is unfair. You are buying time, even if the woman was one Mila arranged. You could have left when she didn't appear after 15 minutes.
I suspect the email on the flower arrangement was not intended in an accusatory way, but rather, a "why didn't you use me, what could I have done better" way. This is again a cultural miscue, as FSU societies are not generally as polite as are Western ones, so the manner in which Ukrainians communicate with Westerners in English is different.
I have no dog in this fight, and I am not trying to defend Mila in any way whatsoever, but I do understand the society.
How do we know Mila did not text her to be deliberately late? I get the impression Mila would have charged for an hour even if the guy only waited 15 minutes. It may have all been up front but one would expect a discount on the hour if in general no or little interpreting had been done if only as a gesture of good faith.
From reading both this trip report and the one by Osis it appears that perhaps it is Mila that insists on being there as terp for at least 2 meetingS. The girl spoke good English there was no need for her to be there. Indeed it must have looked quite a scene the two of them chatting away with Mila scoffing away in from of them. Boe you can keep on making excuses for someone but in the end so many circumstances speak for themselves.
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There are other trip reports in the past that praised Mila. I will never need her services, am not related to her, will never meet her, so as I posted, don’t have a dog in this fight. Similarly, you have not used her services so your speculation adds little to the discussion. I’m not defending her, just noting business is done differently there.
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id tend to agree with bo here that there has been a miscue in the conversation or communication that has escalated
happened at times with my wife in the early days , and have seen it with her interactions with people here in australia where very easily and quickly she has got the bull by the horns
not hard to be at opposite perspectives if one small thing is understood incorrectly at the outset ime
SX
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Odba, Mila may have dealt with filthy rich men and she may believe that what she charges and how she factors the charges may not be wrong. But you do have a right to go on a date with a lady you like without Mila and she shouldn't have pushed to be there. The other lady should've appreciated the flowers you sent without reporting it to Mila. Mila shouldn't have called you on it unless you have a contract with her to exclusively use all her services and nobody elses. Although you lost your temper through an email exchange with Mila, she shouldn't have recommended to S to avoid you. Clients are paying her to help them succeed, not fail. Although some clients are losers she needs to be careful about talking bad about paying clients. She should stop doing business with a client before talking bad about them.
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I admit Boethius may have a point on the cultural differences aspect. I think a lot of guys myself included have fallen out or got into dispute with a girl because of difficulty understanding where each other are coming from. In our own culture it can be easier to understand as we are more learned on how things are and how people behave. Perhaps there is more need for an experienced mediator than a terp who understands what is going on in each culture.
I am still dubious as to the whole flowers scenario and I think on that point BillyB has a point in Mila making sure she is willing to represent 'her client' i.e the guy who is paying in a favourable light or not to represent him from the outset. After all it looks like she is not short of clients so why represent the guys she is down on in the first place.
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But I hope you understand that I can see both sides of the story and hopefully I can remain impartial. I've got no horse in the race, so to speak.
That was good for a laugh. You stated you consider her & her husband friends. Impartial. My a*s. :rolleyes: :puke:
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odba, interesting report. I hope you have thick skin to deal with the inevitable brushback. The groupies will be out in force demonizing you once the word gets out.
I agree with not settling. No need to. Well done.
All this talk about cultural differences is a cop out. Decency and good character is the same all over if one has it.
Wishing you good luck going forward.
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That was good for a laugh. You stated you consider her & her husband friends. Impartial. My a*s. :rolleyes: :puke:
Good to see you showing your intelligence again wall, think you've been spending too much time with Trench. You certainly post almost as much as him based on about the same level of experience. This coming from a guy who moaned about Ukraine and met a girl he couldn't communicate with?
Just because you lack an open-mind doesn't mean we all do. Because I happen to like Mila and her husband on a personal level doesn't mean I can't be objective when reviewing her service or articulate some of the issues I also encountered. As I said above, if you read it fully, with hindsight I wished I'd done an objective trip report at the time to go through the good and the bad.
I suspect there is more to this story than meets the eye anyway but I'm sure Mila will come and defend herself. And no, before you suggest it, I'm not in cahoots with her to present some sort of defence. It's pure intuition because I've been in town when some of you guys lacking in certain departments have too.
Simple fact is that I met a wonderful woman in Kharkov that Mila introduced me to. We spent 10 days together, some with Mila but most of the time alone. Things did not work out, it's the reality of life and I am young enough not to settle for the first attractive woman I meet. Simple fact is she was beautiful, will make someone a lovely wife and be a fantastic mother but was not the one for me.
In that sense Mila did her side of the job and the rest did not come to fruition. After the 10 days alone with the girl when things didn't work out, did I spit my dummy out and look for someone else to blame? No. I accepted my shortcomings and the lady I met and made a calculated decision to go a different direction.
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+1. The relationship between a guy and a matchmaker is fraught with issues if there's no open dialogue. I don't think it's possible to please 100% of guys 100% of the time. I've established a friendship with Mila and her husband over the years, so I think it's safe to say we can be honest with each other about things - whether it be me having an issue with the service or cost, or her having an issue about how I may have conducted myself with women or on a date. If some guys don't have the ability to use what's between their ears or aren't able to openly communicate, they'll struggle in Ukraine full-stop. Who can't use Uber or Tinder in this day and age? To spend 2 days just walking around in a city like Kharkov with beautiful women and numerous methods to meet them is a waste if you really want to meet someone.Unless something changes, I probably won't use Mila's services in Kharkov again, but we've become friends. I met a great lady in the summer because of her, sadly things just didn't work out. I've become pretty independent now in Ukraine and I like to manage my own schedule and choose my own type of lady when I'm there. If it's your first visit, I wouldn't talk you out of it. Like everything, different things work for different people and YMMV.
I'm guessing this is the quote wall you used to ascertain I'm friends with Mila and her husband. Interested to know how blind you need to be not to recognise the balance here, but at least I made you 'laugh' (probably your mate Trench too).
I don't know your background, but have you never done deals or negotiated with people who were, or later became, friends or at least people in your social circle?...and then had to sit down and do business again at a later point? Never had to set your like or dislike for someone aside and deliver a result or an opinion fact or result?
Not that I need to justify myself to another know-it-all...but come on; sometimes business and personal feelings have to be put aside. There are also cultural differences. I'm lucky I travel a lot and my colleagues are based around the world so I understand there are some cultural nuances. If you can't understand that, I'm sorry but you're beyond educating here. Impartiality your ass indeed.
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Hello Obda,
I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...
I recall our emails a little differently. S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you. However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery. S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person. S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office. For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career. Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery. She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers. I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home. That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that. S asked me to. Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you. But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work. I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.
I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you. Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy. Things with you may not work out, and if they did not, she still has to support herself. I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.
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Mila, very reasonable answer pertaining to the flower delivery episode. Odba, delivering flowers to a woman's work was a bad move. Should've asked for advice from the forum or Mila before doing so. Also, you were in town. Best to present the flowers to her in person on your next date.
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S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you. However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery. S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person. S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office. For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career. Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery. She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers. I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home. That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that. S asked me to. Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you. But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work. I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge. [/size]
Hmm... A high paying job in Ukraine. One wonders how the flower delivery person would have gotten into the office.
I don't know about her company but in my experience working for a multi-national company like Shell, someone has to go down to meet, vouch and sign the "guest" in at the door first before being allowed in with a limited pass.
To think the delivery person can even get as close to the meeting room as to enter it and disrupt said meeting, hmm. Doubtful I am.
Or perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?
Unless the Ukrainian reception (security) doesn't care :P
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I can vouch for the fact that definitely is not the case across Ukraine, particularly for something as pedestrian as flower delivery. Please don't speculate on how things operate in a foreign country in which you have never done business.
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Hello Obda,
I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...
I recall our emails a little differently. S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you. However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery. S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person. S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office. For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career. Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery. She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers. I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home. That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that. S asked me to. Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you. But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work. I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.
I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you. Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy. Things with you may not work out, and if they did not, she still has to support herself. I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.
I have often said on forum that guys need to be very aware and sensitive to a girls situation -- and this example is a perfect example of a guy blundering along blindly with little understanding of the girls situation.
Before anyone starts doubting Mila's explanation here -- I personally have experience of just this situation -- to be precise -- don't send flowers to work place without a clear acceptance of the concept.
The qualification-- make sure that delivery is pre-arranged by phone with the recipient-- that is actually the usual procedure if florist is given a number to call. If you do give an address for delivery address -- the problem is that the actual delivery person may deliver regardless of other instructions .
I learnt to give an area.city.suburb as address-- and not the precise street address -- so the call has to be made to arrange delivery at a convenient time & place!
The part of trying to surprise gets lost in all this --true-- but -it is the thought that is the surprise and the flowers are still real !
On the same theme -- a guy showing up unannounced at a girls work can = potential disaster
--- " " " " " " " " home " " " "
What it means is that you need to be in a girls life to learn what and when is an appropriate time for any contact -- and that even includes calling .
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I can vouch for the fact that definitely is not the case across Ukraine, particularly for something as pedestrian as flower delivery. Please don't speculate on how things operate in a foreign country in which you have never done business.
Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?
Obviously I'm not Ukrainian and have never been there Boe. Still, it's just not standard procedure. And this is true for most cities, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, London, Singapore, etc etc. People can't simply bang on the front door, and insist on calling a high-ranked office worker out of her meeting to meet flower guy and collect flowers.
Unless it's an emergency, eg. sick child etc, it simply shouldn't and wouldn't happen??
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Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person?
Kyn --see my post above.
I could explain some specifics in my own example -- but --it is not relevant to the principle I explained .
The point is the girl is/could be in a sensitive position at her work -- she does not need it to be complicated.
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Ok, perhaps she was called out of her meeting to meet the flower person? That would make sense but still, wouldn't it be standard practice for the clerk to inform the delivery person that she's in a meeting and ask the delivery person to wait or leave the flowers there at the reception?
Obviously I'm not Ukrainian and have never been there Boe. Still, it's just not standard procedure. And this is true for most cities, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, London, Singapore, etc etc. People can't simply bang on the front door, and insist on calling a high-ranked office worker out of her meeting to meet flower guy and collect flowers.
Unless it's an emergency, eg. sick child etc, it simply shouldn't and wouldn't happen??
The society there is different. A flower delivery person with a smile likely could get access to a meeting.
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The society there is different. A flower delivery person with a smile likely could get access to a meeting.
That is 100% true. They may also be already known in the building.
As I said above -- the detail is not relevant.
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All this talk about cultural differences is a cop out. Decency and good character is the same all over if one has it.
I just noticed this post. The cultural differences is not a "cop out". There definitely are cultural differences, and as we can determine from the explanation, they were at play here. I see them here a lot, as there are a lot of people from the FSU here.
I would charge a client if a deal fell through, so why wouldn't Mila charge for sitting with a client when a woman is late? She is charging for her time. I think the explanation about the flowers is a cultural difference, at least partly.
That is 100% true. They may also be already known in the building.
Yes, I didn't even think of that. That definitely would make a difference here as well.
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Hello Obda,
I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...
I recall our emails a little differently. S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you. However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery. S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person. S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office. For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career. Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery. She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers. I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home. That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that. S asked me to. Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you. But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work. I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.
I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you. Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy. Things with you may not work out, and if they did not, she still has to support herself. I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.
mila , thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread
odba , i find mila,s explanation above perfectly accurate and acceptable with my experiences in ukraine and particulary kharkov .
wallm and others have been quick to write of cultural differences .but in this case its an example to learn from , unless you have asked your lady of interest , YOU SHOULD NEVER SEND FLOWERS OR GIFTS TO HER WORK OR CONTACT HER THEIR full stop ...
i always sent flowers /gifts etc to my now wifes home address for exactly the reason mila describes , my wife , did not wish her employer to know she was dating a foreign man and she did not wish them to potentialy terminate her regardless of how good she was at her work or length of service
industrial relations /human resources work very differently in ukriane to most other places in the west , so our understanding of what is acceptable or allowed is very different in many cases their
my wife was a single mum , her job was critical to her life and support of a child and mum , its not something to be trifled with just because you wish to impress her with flowers mate
think before you act , its most likly this girl dropped you as such a public gaff for her shows a side to you she did not like , and along with your time spent together cleary led her to believe you where not suitable long term mate
look at what you did , rather than blame others here imo
you should have used your paid time with mila better to ask and understand the ''normal '' or accepted way to send the flowers , instead you thought you would save some coin and go it alone , you did that , and you where shown a valuable lesson that you did not learn from at that time
lesson for all players in this game , if you dont know things and you dont wish to pay someone like mila for the help and information that improves your understanding on how to proceed , then dam well read up and do your research before you go off half arsed make a mistake and blame others for it
SX
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I don't think it is the public gaffe that caused her to drop him. I think it was more than likely her fear of someone in a position of power at her workplace discovering it, and terminating her employment. Keep in mind, she has no wrongful dismissal recourse there.
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I don't think it is the public gaffe that caused her to drop him. I think it was more than likely her fear of someone in a position of power at her workplace discovering it, and terminating her employment. Keep in mind, she has no wrongful dismissal recourse there.
exactly bo , i understand how they work in practical terms with on the spot dismissal , discrimination and all the other employer tactics used there like companys going bankrupt or death or a employee etc
i can imagine how my wife would have reacted if i had of done the same to her , often/usually people their are intensly private ime , their personal business is exactly that , and should never be publicly discussed or from milas comment made into a ''production ''at work
there are many degrees to this , but ime it is a common trait that is different to the more ''open ''west attitude we have to such things
similar to talking about a new arrival or upcoming birth of a baby , new job , income , holiday plans etc its often off limits with other co workers OVER THERE
im also heavily inclined to think she had discovered enough about odba to know he was not suitable for her and it was a combination effect capped of with the flowers , once she had time to reflect on it all
SX
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OK Mila and the others; the flower situation has been beaten to death.
But the OP had many other complaints . . . not just the flower situation.
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I just see some nickel and dime stuff in the rest of the story. He never stated, but what are we talking about here? $20 for interpreting? An "overcharging" of how much? Are Ukrainians not supposed to have Iphones? Just as in the US, Ukrainians can buy cellphones on plans, plus they are cheaper in Ukraine than in most countries due to a lack of tariffs.
S wanted Mila at the first meeting. The OP looked at that with suspicion, rather than she may not have felt comfortable with her English, particularly if she doesn't interact with native speakers.
As I posted, I don't know Mila, and will never use her services. So I certainly am not defending her here, and contrary to what some posters have suggested, I am not a Mila "groupie". But, what I sense in Odba's posts was he was anticipating looking at being taken advantage of, so that is what he saw. He looked for the worst. Mila hasn't addressed these issues, which aren't fleshed out, so at this point, it is largely speculation. But were she to respond, I suspect we'd learn there is Odba's perception, there is Mila's perception, and the real truth is somewhere in the middle.
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I just see some nickel and dime stuff in the rest of the story. He never stated, but what are we talking about here? $20 for interpreting? An "overcharging" of how much? Are Ukrainians not supposed to have Iphones? Just as in the US, Ukrainians can buy cellphones on plans, plus they are cheaper in Ukraine than in most countries due to a lack of tariffs.
S wanted Mila at the first meeting. The OP looked at that with suspicion, rather than she may not have felt comfortable with her English, particularly if she doesn't interact with native speakers.
As I posted, I don't know Mila, and will never use her services. So I certainly am not defending her here, and contrary to what some posters have suggested, I am not a Mila "groupie". But, what I sense in Odba's posts was he was anticipating looking at being taken advantage of, so that is what he saw. He looked for the worst. Mila hasn't addressed these issues, which aren't fleshed out, so at this point, it is largely speculation. But were she to respond, I suspect we'd learn there is Odba's perception, there is Mila's perception, and the real truth is somewhere in the middle.
agree bo
im not a mila groupie either
but having read odbas post and mila response to the flower issue , my feeling is he was a tad preoccupied with cost and wanted to take some short cuts or at least was viewing any charges with negativity /suspicion , thus he believed he was being ripped off
with things like taxis at airport , from kharkiv airport to city it is about 100 grivnas with alocal taxi , maybe 250 if you use a hotel , if he felt he was overcharged he had chance to refuse or speak up and query it , SO I THINK HE PAID 400 ?? thats around $16 australian dollars he paid compared to the lower cost of $ 4-10 australian dollars , without knowing if he got a quality car supplied by mila , airconditioned , new , leather interior etc ,with adriver who drives carefully with a client compared to a local secondhand buzz box taxi driven by a suss dude who may or may not follow road rules and pay attention while driving or have super loud music or be fiddling with his phone the whole way lol
as a foreigner he was never going to get a taxi for the local price of 100 or so , if he cant speak the lingo , and has no experience with the drivers there , he will get taken for aride literally on the price all these things should be discussed before he booked and arrived if he had concerns imo with mila , better communication about expectations lessens issues
SX
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odba, don't buy the narrative that ukrainian women are all hot, family oriented, etc. Sure there are some wonderful women there but few and far between. Perhaps you should consider local women. Our American women are not all fat and feminazis.
Read these two threads below for valuable information if you must find an FSUW.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22374.0
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22390.0
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but few and far between.
Your channelling Trenchcoat with your broad generalisations.
The fact is that you too have had a fairly narrow exposure and now often repeat your comment or that theme.
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I would actually say they are family orientated but its not always easy to get to that, cultural differences and other issues the girls have get in the way. These I think can be too easily underestimated, I did, and often not easily got around. For where I am in the UK local girls are simply not even on the table as an option, feminism has seen to that. Most men I am guessing look abroad as they see they have little other choice. It is often said that if you can date locally & find someone decent most would whether its WM or FSW.
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For where I am in the UK local girls are simply not even on the table as an option, feminism has seen to that. Most men I am guessing look abroad as they see they have little other choice. It is often said that if you can date locally & find someone decent most would whether its WM or FSW.
More Trench twaddle..
Plenty of single family orientated UK women and even disillusioned E.European and FSU W ...
Having read your posts on here - most of us see your issues - as would any lady you date.
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The flowers was a bad move as others have said. It could have impacted her negatively at work and day to day life. In fact many Ukrainian women will not tell anyone they are dating a foreigner or moving overseas for a number of reasons. Jealousy, loss of employment, sabotage, and lets not forget the whole superstitious aspect.
$50 per intro is standard I think? I know that $20 per hour for a good terp is quite normal. Taxi sounds outrageous for Ukraine.
I do notice a few strange things about this trip from both parties. Minor flags, but raises questions.
The extra items on the menu, padded taxi bills, Meeting a woman on her birthday? In Ukraine birthdays are quite special. I find it hard to believe a woman would spend it with a stranger versus family or friends...
From the OP I see some minor complaining about petty things. Maybe that gave the women a certain impression about him as a person (true or not).
Mila said the S is like a sister to her
If that is so, I imagine they would have chatted and Mila knows the reason.
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Some years ago when guys still relied a lot on Marriage Agencies (as opposed to dating websites), there were comments that honest Marriage Agencies actually could not compete with the dishonest ones, and so they became dishonest over time also.
I think a similar thing happens with once honest match makers and interpreters.
Like my wife says. There is no money in love.
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Like my wife says. There is no money in love.
But there's certainly money in 'helping' those who seek it ?
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On the same theme -- a guy showing up unannounced at a girls work can = potential disaster
--- " " " " " " " " home " " " "
What it means is that you need to be in a girls life to learn what and when is an appropriate time for any contact -- and that even includes calling .
What if a guy shows up at her home? I assume the fallout would be different than at work, lack of knowledge of family she was foreign dating, her not letting them know she might be willing to move abroad, view of WM within her family?
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But there's certainly money in 'helping' those who seek it ?
Nah, mostly headaches. Unless you have a service like Ed does where he charges astronomical rates.
What if a guy shows up at her home? I assume the fallout would be different than at work, lack of knowledge of family she was foreign dating, her not letting them know she might be willing to move abroad, view of WM within her family?
It could cause issues in the early stages of a relationship. Babushka network and all that fallout.
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What if a guy shows up at her home? I assume the fallout would be different than at work, lack of knowledge of family she was foreign dating, her not letting them know she might be willing to move abroad, view of WM within her family?
If you're in a good place - you'd know it and know a surprise visit - is normally appreciated...
SC is a little OCD about the apartment being tidy for my arrivals ...but the expression on her face is worth the 'telling off', later ..
'Surprising' someone you've never met .. NOT so wise ..
If she works - she'd feel torn between being obligated to being a host and her job - it might even look like you had another lady in mind and she is plan B
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Nah, mostly headaches.
Whilst I'd agree that some guys in this venture must be horrific to have to deal with - folks will only continue to do this if there's money in it.
Unless you have a service like Ed does where he charges astronomical rates
Have you BEEN a client of our Ed's? .. .to validate such a statemnt ?
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Have you BEEN a client of our Ed's? .. .to validate such a statemnt ?
I would never pay some random dude 20k to find me a wife. Thats a fact, not a statement.
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Sure there are some wonderful women there but few and far between.
There are millions of wonderful Ukrainian women waiting in line for a solid Western man.
1. Men want young flesh with big boobs. Even though they are older and not in shape. Unrealistic.
2. The websites are geared towards making money, not producing marriages.
3. Women have been burned by men, so become jaded and take advantage of the next round over.
4. Most men searching overseas lack very basic qualities a good woman is looking for.
5. The majority of good women are not on dating sites.
6. Scammers and gold diggers leverage the dating sites for their purposes.
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I would never pay some random dude 20k to find me a wife. Thats a fact, not a statement.
Did he actually quote you that figure ? Don't deflect ..
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Did he actually quote you that figure ? Don't deflect ..
Deflect? LOL. I am pretty sure that is his price, no? I have seen several members mention it.
Even if half that number, why would you pay someone that much money?
edit - I think Ed also asks for airfare and expenses to fly over with you to Russia....
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Deflect? LOL. I am pretty sure that is his price, no? I have seen several members mention it.
Even if half that number, why would you pay someone that much money?
edit - I think Ed also asks for airfare and expenses to fly over with you to Russia....
Ri-ight !
So you ARE 'quoting' gossip - rather than fact ...?
Ed and I have had our differences - re his exaggerated claims re ratios of men to ladies - but I knew his rates and you'd have to be using him 400 hours get to 20k
Naturally, if a client wants me somewhere - they pay for my expenses..at cost - not biz class
Can we try to post facts - not hearsay bollox ?
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Ri-ight !
So you ARE 'quoting' gossip - rather than fact ...?
Ed and I have had our differences - re his exaggerated claims re ratios of men to ladies - but I knew his rates and you'd have to be using him 400 hours get to 20k
Naturally, if a client wants me somewhere - they pay for my expenses..at cost - not biz class
Can we try to post facts - not hearsay bollox ?
5k per trip from the horses mouth. in 2007. He has since raised his rates I am sure ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/ybRlJV4.png)
Many of us have spoken to guys in chat who were quoted anyways. 20k was the number I recall.
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Ri-ight !
So you ARE 'quoting' gossip - rather than fact ...?
Ed and I have had our differences - re his exaggerated claims re ratios of men to ladies - but I knew his rates and you'd have to be using him 400 hours get to 20k
Can we try to post facts - not hearsay bollox ?
Ooooops....
(http://i.imgur.com/ueaSHMc.png)
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5k per trip from the horses mouth. in 2007. He has since raised his rates I am sure ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/ybRlJV4.png)
Many of us have spoken to guys in chat who were quoted anyways. 20k was the number I recall.
So, that's 4 times less than your first post ..and his average started at 12K - so you thought you'd use the highest figure - Oooops indeed
His estimates for what guys who do this on their own probably equates with what he charges.
I'm with you .. rather do it my way .. but you have inadvertently 'proved' his services could make economic sense ?
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So, that's 4 times less than your first post ..and his average started at 12K - so you thought you'd use the highest figure - Oooops indeed
His estimates for what guys who do this on their own probably equates with what he charges.
Read my post after that. And that was in 2010. A number of guys we have spoken in chat to were quoted 20k to start.
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Unless YOU were quoted that - it's hearsay...
No doubt the guys who claim such a thing will claim they never took up Ed's services ... as he was 'too expensive' ..
My 'beef' with what you posted is that unless you know Ed or have used his services - you are in no position to judge
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alex The flowers was a bad move as others have said. It could have impacted her negatively at work and day to day life. In fact many Ukrainian women will not tell anyone they are dating a foreigner or moving overseas for a number of reasons. Jealousy, loss of employment, sabotage, and lets not forget the whole superstitious aspect
agree as above ,my wife did not tell her inlaws ,or work colleagues etc , she did not wish to be sacked or have months of resistance to her taking their grandson to another country so there can be lots of reasons why you should not proceed as odba did without your ladys sign off
The extra items on the menu, padded taxi bills, Meeting a woman on her birthday? In Ukraine birthdays are quite special. I find it hard to believe a woman would spend it with a stranger versus family or friends...
it happens , my wife did spend her birthday with me on my first trip out there , and it was a significant bthday , but she only had her mum and young child at the time all other family [inlaws and blood relatives ] lived away from her city ,
remember there are no rules set in concrete for this adventure , each one is personal so trsut your gut insitincts , but dont be paranoid
SX
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OK Mila and the others; the flower situation has been beaten to death.
But the OP had many other complaints . . . not just the flower situation.
The rest is just fluff. Had the OP come here in real-time and posted a day-by-day, blow-by-blow account, then I think it would lend a little more weight to his grievances. Instead, he waited until after he'd taken a further trip to FSU and still not matched with anyone.
His resentful tone just strikes as someone looking for a scapecoat and trying to sling mud. Not trying to undermine the importance of honest practices, but it seems like this stuff was not all that important at the time and only became an issue after the lady he was pursuing decided she was no longer interested.
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I would actually say they are family orientated but its not always easy to get to that, cultural differences and other issues the girls have get in the way. These I think can be too easily underestimated, I did, and often not easily got around. For where I am in the UK local girls are simply not even on the table as an option, feminism has seen to that. Most men I am guessing look abroad as they see they have little other choice. It is often said that if you can date locally & find someone decent most would whether its WM or FSW.
Rubbish again and you know it. You CAN'T get a local girl, so why do you expect to go to FSU for a 1 week trip and expect to be able to?
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I told Mila that I don't need her for the second meeting with S that evening. She said S wants her there. S speaks pretty good English. Why does she need an interpreter? We spent the dinner talking in English.
Here is my question, if the lady speaks English, why the need for an interpreter? I can see the need for maybe someone to act as say a chaperone, the first time meeting with a stranger, maybe you want the person making the introduction to stick around. How long should that continue? Often, I know there can still be misunderstandings with a fsu lady who does speak some English. I often have to be careful when using idioms around the wife. However, might as well find out how well you can communicate sooner rather than later. If the lady does not speak the same language, I think you still have the same issue. How long should the interpreter stay connected, shouldn't you think of a way to communicate without the third person if you are serious about building a life together. Isn't a woman that requires an interpreter to stay connected after initial introduction a serious red flag?
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Here is my question, if the lady speaks English, why the need for an interpreter? I can see the need for maybe someone to act as say a chaperone, the first time meeting with a stranger, maybe you want the person making the introduction to stick around. How long should that continue? Often, I know there can still be misunderstandings with a fsu lady who does speak some English. I often have to be careful when using idioms around the wife. However, might as well find out how well you can communicate sooner rather than later. If the lady does not speak the same language, I think you still have the same issue. How long should the interpreter stay connected, shouldn't you think of a way to communicate without the third person if you are serious about building a life together. Isn't a woman that requires an interpreter to stay connected after initial introduction a serious red flag?
Agreed. Unless her English is poor it is a red flag. She is proba bly not into you or there are other motives at play. First meeting with a terp is pretty normal as many are not very confident in their spoken English. And many want another woman there in case of any issues with a strange man. But after that? It's how agencies manipulate men.
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Here is my question, if the lady speaks English, why the need for an interpreter? I can see the need for maybe someone to act as say a chaperone, the first time meeting with a stranger, maybe you want the person making the introduction to stick around. How long should that continue? Often, I know there can still be misunderstandings with a fsu lady who does speak some English. I often have to be careful when using idioms around the wife. However, might as well find out how well you can communicate sooner rather than later. If the lady does not speak the same language, I think you still have the same issue. How long should the interpreter stay connected, shouldn't you think of a way to communicate without the third person if you are serious about building a life together. Isn't a woman that requires an interpreter to stay connected after initial introduction a serious red flag?
In any case, the woman dropped the man in a flash and had no plans to reconcile, just because of "embarrassing flowers" at work apparently.
Clearly she had reasons to think he wasn't good enough for her. Who knows what she was thinking. :-\
If she's not interested, then she's not interested. Time to move on.
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I think you’re mistaken. She didn’t want anything to result in her losing her job. It was a huge faux pas on the OP’s part.
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I think you’re mistaken. She didn’t want anything to result in her losing her job. It was a huge faux pas on the OP’s part.
Assuming that is true, she could have at least explained it to him and forgiven him if she was still the slightest interested in the man.
Why the need for aloofness? And Mila to explain it to the man in her stead? Ukrainian culture? Doesn't seem to make much sense.
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Gents,
I've just remembered that I once sent a lady flowers ( Kyiv) - involving the firm taking a photo of the lady with your delivered gift ..
OK, they called her before-hand and they were delivered to her home - but the photo clearly showed her discomfort.
Thoughtless ( clueless ) of me ? Yup...
I now cringe at the very thought.
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Assuming that is true, she could have at least explained it to him and forgiven him if she was still the slightest interested in the man.
Why the need for aloofness? And Mila to explain it to the man in her stead? Ukrainian culture? Doesn't seem to make much sense.
Because she has a very official position. If someone in a country full of sophisticated hackers wants to replace her, and arranges to hack into her email after the flower delivery, the communications with the foreign man could make their way back to her office. The man is far away, there is no certainty he will ever return, and she still has to put food on the table.
The woman called Mila as she assumed it was Mila who had arranged the delivery. The woman was scared off. There was no deep relationship between her and the OP.
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If she's not interested, then she's not interested. Time to move on.
I believe he said he moved on. He went back to ukraine after meeting ladies on free sites.
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So, odba, did you scare S off with your romantic gesture? What is the real story about sending flowers to her office? Considering what you said about Mila, I suppose it is possible the truth is something else.
If that culture punishes women for receiving flowers, perhaps you should look elsewhere.
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Assuming that is true, she could have at least explained it to him and forgiven him if she was still the slightest interested in the man.
Most women over there don't want a man who has to be taught. They want to guy who has a good understanding of life. That is another reason she's not wasting any more time with him.
I hope Odba comes back and explain how he got the address to her work. If she gave it to him, that's fine, if he did some detective work, it could spook her.
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Most women over there don't want a man who has to be taught. They want to guy who has a good understanding of life. That is another reason she's not wasting any more time with him.
I hope Odba comes back and explain how he got the address to her work. If she gave it to him, that's fine, if he did some detective work, it could spook her.
Billy, how would he know about women getting fired because of flowers? Needless to say, here in America we send flowers to our women at their offices without these shameful repercussions. He obviously had no idea about what would happen in Ukraine.
Perhaps this should be included in the FAQ so in future men will know what not to do.
Can we stop making grandiose assumptions till we get his side of the story?
Does this (women getting fired for receiving flowers at work) happen in Russia too?
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That's because of the rule of law and all the laws enacted under pressure by Western "feminazis".
The "culture" does not punish women for receiving flowers. Flowers received by a local man, for example, would not have caused a kerfuffle, though local men would not usually send a woman flowers at the office, unless delivering them in person. The problem is that if a woman is receiving flowers from a foreign man, she is possibly looking to emigrate, and an employer is going to look for someone who is not looking to emigrate, even if that means replacing her.
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Billy, how would he know about women getting fired because of flowers? Needless to say, here in America we send flowers to our women at their offices without these shameful repercussions. He obviously had no idea about what would happen in Ukraine.
There's no guarantees any woman will get fired if a Western man sends her flowers but those women don't want to give their boss the impression they are about to quit and are moving to another country.
I think it's bad to send flowers to a woman's workplace even in America right after a first date. A guy should make sure a woman wants to go on a second date with him first, don't you think? Flowers sent to a workplace after a first date has no benefit and can hurt a guy's chances with a woman. A guy gets a second date solely based off his performance of the first date.
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There's no guarantees any woman will get fired if a Western man sends her flowers but those women don't want to give their boss the impression they are about to quit and are moving to another country.
I think it's bad to send flowers to a woman's workplace even in America right after a first date. A guy should make sure a woman wants to go on a second date with him first, don't you think? Flowers sent to a workplace after a first date has no benefit and can hurt a guy's chances with a woman. A guy gets a second date solely based off his performance of the first date.
Oh boy! I was talking about women we are in relationship with such as girlfriends, wives...who is talking about flowers after first date?
I believe OP said he met S twice and sent her flowers after he returned home.
This guy hopefully will come back and read what has become of his report and clear up somethings.
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Oh boy! I was talking about women we are in relationship with such as girlfriends, wives...who is talking about flowers after first date?
I believe OP said he met S twice and sent her flowers after he returned home.
My mistake, I went back and read he had a second date with the lady and sent the flowers after he went home. Best place to send the flowers would be her home. A good job is valuable over there and the ladies would like to keep them unless they find a guy they'd move for. Two dates is too early for the lady to consider Odba the guy.
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Hello Obda,
I am sorry you were unhappy with my services...
I recall our emails a little differently. S was very interested in you, and I do not know why she stopped writing you. However, I do know what occurred with the flower delivery. S works in a very official job, and she was in a serious meeting which was interrupted by the flower delivery person. S was upset that her meeting was interrupted and she was given flowers in front of her whole office. For women in Ukraine, these types of things, especially if speculation is she will leave her job to move abroad, can kill a career. Because of that delivery, S called me and asked why I didn't make the flower delivery. She assumed the delivery had been arranged through me, and had I come in, I would not have made a production of giving her the flowers. I always call beforehand, to ensure it is convenient for the woman to receive flowers, and whether she wishes them to be delivered at work or at home. That was why I emailed you, Odba, and asked why you didn't let me do that. S asked me to. Had you explained anything, I would have called S back with your explanation and crafted an apology for you. But I needed to understand why you sent the flowers to her work. I would have called S back to explain, and emailed you back at no charge.
I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you. Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy. Things with you may not work out, and if they did not, she still has to support herself. I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.
That is some cockamamie story you had come up with. Here is what you said to me in May 2017 the day I sent flowers to S.
“We are friends with her and usually I am responsible for my clients' orders but not someone else.”
“S is as close to me as my sister and I introduced her to you, and you picked someone else to surprise my sister.”
“P.S: if someone else delivers a present to N, I would not even care, but with S it is different...”
“You know that this is also part of my job and you still find other people to help you.”
“you did very well. She is happy.”
Really? So, she was not worried about losing her job? Now, after I write a trip report, all of a sudden she could have lost her job. She asked for an explanation. And you would have delivered an apology free of charge. smh.....
This is embarrassingly weak. I am all for everyone making a nice living and being prosperous. Do it with integrity though.
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Here are the facts. I did not send flowers to S’s work address. Why? I do NOT know her home/work address. It was very early in my courting of her. I asked the florist to call S (I gave S’s cell number) and ask S for delivery instructions. The florist couldn't have delivered to her work address unless asked to by S. Who else could have given the work address to the florist? If S was worried about being fired because she gets flowers at work, would she ask for delivery at work instead of home?
After the flowers were delivered, the florist sent me an email confirming delivery. That was my last contact with them.
Perhaps I should publish the Whatsapp message S sent me after delivery with photos of her with the flowers, which will debunk this new bullshit theory put out by Mila to cover up the fact that she was upset I didn't pay her, as I accurately described in the trip report. But I won't. Somethings will be kept confidential as they should be. S is a grown woman in her 30s who speaks good English. She should have the mindset to tell me directly instead of going through an intermediary, if the new theory is true. She never said any of that to me.
This much focus on S is unnecessary. I had moved on about 9 months ago. She should choose her friend/sister carefully however.
I will create a website with more detail about each day in Kharkiv. Perhaps I will add some photos too. Anyone who google searches Mila Lobunko by her name will be able to find that site to read a more detailed trip report. After that I will never again talk about this woman.
I am currently communicating with a few women from Sochi, Samara, Krasnodar and Rostov-on-Don. My current consulting engagement finishes in March. I am planning to go in April and spend a few weeks there. I am not going to write a trip report however.
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Here are the facts. I did not send flowers to S’s work address. Why? I do NOT know her home/work address. It was very early in my courting of her. I asked the florist to call S (I gave S’s cell number) and ask S for delivery instructions. The florist couldn't have delivered to her work address unless asked to by S. Who else could have given the work address to the florist? If S was worried about being fired because she gets flowers at work, would she ask for delivery at work instead of home?
Well, that certainly makes sense and changes the story. Why is it Milas job to act like flower broker?
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I am currently communicating with a few women from Sochi, Samara, Krasnodar and Rostov-on-Don. My current consulting engagement finishes in March. I am planning to go in April and spend a few weeks there. I am not going to write a trip report however.
Leave Sochi, 'til last - if you can and it will be nearly May and the sea will be warmer and Sochi livens up.
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Leave Sochi, 'til last - if you can and it will be nearly May and the sea will be warmer and Sochi livens up.
Thanks for the tip.
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Well, that certainly makes sense and changes the story. Why is it Milas job to act like flower broker?
Because men can pay her to deliver and do it more expensively. As I said it is all about the cash for her and nothing more.
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Thanks for the tip.
It is a FIFA 2018 World Cup host city- as is Samara - so things will be getting a little crazy in May ..
I live in Sochi half the year
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I was unaware that S stopped communicating with you. Were I to guess why, I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy. Things with you may not work out, and if they did not, she still has to support herself. I am sorry things did not proceed as you wished over something that should have been trivial.
You described her as your sister. And you didn't know for the last 9 months that your sister stopped communicating with me? You don't speak to your "sister" at all anymore? How many women in this world don't talk about their personal lives with their sisters/girlfriends, especially when a man is introduced by one to the other? If you can't tell the truth, just say nothing.
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It is a FIFA 2018 World Cup host city- as is Samara - so things will be getting a little crazy in May ..
I live in Sochi half the year
hmm..sounds interesting. Being a yank, I am not much into soccer but it could be fun if I can get tickets. What hotels/apartments would you recommend? Thanks.
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Here are the facts. I did not send flowers to S’s work address. Why? I do NOT know her home/work address. It was very early in my courting of her.
I also wondered how you would get her work address so early in the courting phase. Now we have two very conflicting stories. You say you didn't send the flowers to the girls workplace and Mila says you did. It's hard for the experts at the forum to rule on this issue when we have all the facts but don't know which ones to use.
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hmm..sounds interesting. Being a yank, I am not much into soccer but it could be fun if I can get tickets. What hotels/apartments would you recommend? Thanks.
Interesting....
Unless you extend your trip a month and a half(at least), forget about any soccer..er...football!!
Unless you have tickets AND accommodations already, everything is already booked
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I also wondered how you would get her work address so early in the courting phase. Now we have two very conflicting stories. You say you didn't send the flowers to the girls workplace and Mila says you did. It's hard for the experts at the forum to rule on this issue when we have all the facts but don't know which ones to use.
Here are the facts. I did not send flowers to S’s work address. Why? I do NOT know her home/work address. It was very early in my courting of her. I asked the florist to call S (I gave S’s cell number) and ask S for delivery instructions. The florist couldn't have delivered to her work address unless asked to by S. Who else could have given the work address to the florist?
As per odba's post, he asked the Florist to ask the girl first where she wanted it delivered, as he never had her work address to begin with.
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As per odba's post, he asked the Florist to ask the girl first where she wanted it delivered, as he never had her work address to begin with.
Assuming that is true, that still doesn't mean Odba's flowers went to her workplace if the lady requested they be delivered to her home. Could be two guys delivering flowers to the girl. Another guy's flowers could've went to her workplace? A popular girl gets lots of attention. I sometimes enjoy the flowers and candy some guys leave on my wife's windshield at college.
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Because men can pay her to deliver and do it more expensively. As I said it is all about the cash for her and nothing more.
I think this is a bit unfair. Do you work for free?
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That is some cockamamie story you had come up with. Here is what you said to me in May 2017 the day I sent flowers to S.
“We are friends with her and usually I am responsible for my clients' orders but not someone else.”
“S is as close to me as my sister and I introduced her to you, and you picked someone else to surprise my sister.”
“P.S: if someone else delivers a present to N, I would not even care, but with S it is different...”
“You know that this is also part of my job and you still find other people to help you.”
“you did very well. She is happy.”
Really? So, she was not worried about losing her job? Now, after I write a trip report, all of a sudden she could have lost her job. She asked for an explanation. And you would have delivered an apology free of charge. smh.....
This is embarrassingly weak. I am all for everyone making a nice living and being prosperous. Do it with integrity though.
This post proves you don't understand the culture.
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I think this is a bit unfair. Do you work for free?
She had already done her job with the introduction and translations. Her job was finished.
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I meant this -
As I said it is all about the cash for her and nothing more.
What else "should" it be about?
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I meant this -
What else "should" it be about?
Gotcha. Yes, she has to run a business. And she can name her prices (some of them seemed reasonable in fact).
Not saying this is the case with the OP, but there are many men who travel to Ukraine and try to beat the locals up financially.
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hmm..sounds interesting. Being a yank, I am not much into soccer but it could be fun if I can get tickets. What hotels/apartments would you recommend? Thanks.
In Sochi we have Germany, Peru, Sweden, Spain, Portugal , Australia, Belgium and Panama.. Samara has Russia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Serbia, Australia, Uruguay Senegal and Columbia
In Sochi the decent hotels are fully booked or daft prices.. We have two apartments that we rent out on airbnb and booking.com and we simply don't know whether to 'release them' or 'hold back' ..
I think not many foreigners will come
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. I think it is because above all else, Ukrainian women are practical. She sensed that continued communication with a foreigner would place her job, one that is high paying, in jeopardy.
Lady S was actually the 4th lady i met.She told me,she was working for the goverment (municipality?) and was responsible for the permits for advertising billboards.
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Interesting....
Unless you extend your trip a month and a half(at least), forget about any soccer..er...football!!
Unless you have tickets AND accommodations already, everything is already booked
Er, NO it's not ... I speak for Sochi - only - but unless you involved in renting out accommodation - how would you know? In Sochi I know several of the big hotel managers, personannly
There'll be rooms- you can still buy tickets and you can still get a Visa to come- there's still time to register for FIFA accreditation - buy a ticket and come - visa free
LAman, you are normally much better informed than this
Many of the hotels that are booked have been booked by firms who are speculating demand I frankly don't envisage - judging by the England supporters who won't come (
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I've just remembered that I once sent a lady flowers ( Kyiv) - involving the firm taking a photo of the lady with your delivered gift .. OK, they called her before-hand and they were delivered to her home - but the photo clearly showed her discomfort. Thoughtless ( clueless ) of me ? Yup...
I now cringe at the very thought.
I did the delivery guy with flowers thing with one lady from Moldova years ago in the winter. Turns out they had little heat in her building that month and no hot water. She hadn't had opportunity to wash hair in days. Refused to have a picture taken, but did let him come back a couple days later when she was better prepared.
But there was a very good reason for doing it. In those days, accurate non-glamour photos of some of the ladies were hard to get from them. This was one way to get a few good photos.
Looks like this lady has a good collection:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=299 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=299)