More Bad News for Russia

[calmissile]

You assume too much. I have no need of enlisting in a Ukrainian Volunteer Bn. If there is war in Eastern Europe I would be called to duty as I'm still a member of my country's supplementary ready reserve.

As both my sons are in uniform and I would most certainly push to be sent into theatre I doubt you could class me as "instigate others" as I'm fully aware of what it is and the possible repercussions to my loved ones of what I advocate.

However, I also understand that this is a situation wherein if Russia's criminal aggression is not stopped now it'll be more difficult to stop later. As with Hitler's Germany 75 years ago, everyday we (the western democracies) dance with peace agreements, resets and false diplomacy to appease your dictator, Putin utilizes that time to prepare and strengthen his military for further criminal aggression.

Edit: Good deflection though. I almost forgot to post that your comment in no way clarifies your original disinformative post regarding pre WW2 European history.

Brass

You are absolutely correct in this regard.  It seems after a couple generations go by, there are no lessons learned from history.  Had Germany and Japan not been stopped in WWII, we might all be speaking German or Japanese.   If we had not been so successful during the cold war, we might be speaking Russian.

It seems that human nature lends itself to the rise of dictators and tyrants bent on conquering additional lands.   It is the responsibility of the rest of the world to keep them in check.  As far as I am concerned, anyone without the balls to defend their nation and assist their neighbors deserve to be ruled  by the aggressive force.

[JayH]

.  Russian will never, ever, get it.  When you are a diplomat and you insult your host country, do not expect to be liked

RUSSIAN DIPLOMAT =  Oxymoron

 

[Brasscasing]

You are absolutely correct in this regard.  It seems after a couple generations go by, there are no lessons learned from history.  Had Germany and Japan not been stopped in WWII, we might all be speaking German or Japanese.   If we had not been so successful during the cold war, we might be speaking Russian.

It seems that human nature lends itself to the rise of dictators and tyrants bent on conquering additional lands.   It is the responsibility of the rest of the world to keep them in check.  As far as I am concerned, anyone without the balls to defend their nation and assist their neighbors deserve to be ruled  by the aggressive force.

...Indeed. +1

Brass

[Belvis]

  It was amazing that in the last few posts, your English skills have picked up considerably.

Thank you. I make posts here to preserve my English from rusting. Very good method to be in touch with live language.

Despite the posting of several Wiki paragraphs, please remind me why Poles should be comfortable with the secret pact between two equally Great and Evil Satans (Stalin and Hitler)?

I don't know. Since you raise this question you'd better to answer it. Or you think Poles knew about the pact in 1938?

Jone could offer you a million dollars for ever Pole you found who loves Russia, but at the end of the day you would owe him money.

Certainly, you underestimate the power of money. I'm pretty sure I can find many Poles who will love Russia for a million dollars

Belvis, someday you should make a pilgrimage to some of the bloodiest execution and burial places for Poles inside Russia. You could start in Smolensk (Katyn), then on to миедное (Miednoe), and from there to Осташков (Ostashkov). Thousands, yes thousands, of poles (from officers to doctors to businessmen to university professors) were shuttled by train to be executed in Russia. You could even take a tour bus from Poland and join some friendly Poles on the journey. I'd suggest that you identify yourself as a brother Russian, you know, for friendship sake and all.

It seems you have fallen the victim of your own propaganda I worked with Poles, thousands Russians live in Poland. People care about utilitarian things , today and now, they don't think about the graves. Do you contact with ordinary men? I begin to suspect you  believe that Russians hate Germans because of WWII

Brass isn't married.

It does not matter, married or not. Cherchez la femme

[Gator]

More relevant than old wars in Poland, Sixty Minutes will broadcast in less than an hour its interview with Putin.  Topics:  Russia's involvement in Syria and the Middle East plus Putin's opinion of Obama and Americans in general.  An interview with Trump follows Putin. 

Belvis, because Putin is supporting Bashar al Assad, I guess you too think Assad is a worthy leader of Syrian people, a real  "lion" not just in name.

[jone]

Thank you. I make posts here to preserve my English from rusting. Very good method to be in touch with live language.

I don't know. Since you raise this question you'd better to answer it. Or you think Poles knew about the pact in 1938?

Certainly, you underestimate the power of money. I'm pretty sure I can find many Poles who will love Russia for a million dollars

It seems you have fallen the victithe m of your own propaganda I worked with Poles, thousands Russians live in Poland. People care about utilitarian things , today and now, they don't think about the graves. Do you contact with ordinary men? I begin to suspect you  believe that Russians hate Germans because of WWII
It does not matter, married or not. Cherchez la femme

This entire segment started when I posted that the Russian Ambassador to Poland included comments in a presentation he was making that the Polish Nation was partially responsible for the beginning of WWII and the subsequent secret pact and invasion by the Soviet Union, in Russia, was done for self defense purposes.  He further went on to say that the reason that the Soviet Union killed all of the Poles at the end of the war was because Russia wanted a friendly nation next to it.  Here, then, was a partial response to the Ambassador's comments:

"The narrative presented by the highest official representative of the Russian state in Poland challenges historical truth and invokes some of the most mendacious interpretations of events, as resorted to during Stalinist and communist years," the foreign affairs ministry said in a statement.

Polish Foreign Minister Grzegorz Schetyna said that he would summon the Russian ambassador on Monday.

Warsaw also strongly objected to the ambassador's attempt to justify "the anti-Polish actions by the Soviet 'liberators'... in the arrest, deportation, and execution of Poles.

"We regard this as a lack of respect for the memory of victims of NKVD (secret police) crimes, perpetrated on the orders of the highest Soviet authorities," the statement added.

So, our resident commentator, Belvis, has stated that the Ambassador was goaded into such a response and defends the actions of his nation's ambassador.  Tell us again, Belvis, how this ambassador was promoting good will between two countries.  Or was he acting directly at the request of the Kremlin, in reminding Poland of how many Poles died in WWII as a covert threat that Russia is still the big kid on the block?  Again, I say, GREAT DIPLOMACY.  Will win Russia many friends.

[fathertime]

This entire segment started when I posted that the Russian Ambassador to Poland included comments in a presentation he was making that the Polish Nation was partially responsible for the beginning of WWII and the subsequent secret pact and invasion by the Soviet Union, in Russia, was done for self defense purposes.  He further went on to say that the reason that the Soviet Union killed all of the Poles at the end of the war was because Russia wanted a friendly nation next to it.  Here, then, was a partial response to the Ambassador's comments:

"The narrative presented by the highest official representative of the Russian state in Poland challenges historical truth and invokes some of the most mendacious interpretations of events, as resorted to during Stalinist and communist years," the foreign affairs ministry said in a statement.

Polish Foreign Minister Grzegorz Schetyna said that he would summon the Russian ambassador on Monday.

Warsaw also strongly objected to the ambassador's attempt to justify "the anti-Polish actions by the Soviet 'liberators'... in the arrest, deportation, and execution of Poles.

"We regard this as a lack of respect for the memory of victims of NKVD (secret police) crimes, perpetrated on the orders of the highest Soviet authorities," the statement added.

So, our resident commentator, Belvis, has stated that the Ambassador was goaded into such a response and defends the actions of his nation's ambassador.  Tell us again, Belvis, how this ambassador was promoting good will between two countries.  Or was he acting directly at the request of the Kremlin, in reminding Poland of how many Poles died in WWII as a covert threat that Russia is still the big kid on the block?  Again, I say, GREAT DIPLOMACY.  Will win Russia many friends.

Our resident 'historian' (you) have been corrected several times on this thread by people who seem to know better. 


Fathertime!   

[jone]

I didn't correct Boe because I happen to agree with her.  I also happen to agree with Mendy.  What is your point, Fathertime?  Are you stating that because I didn't debate with either of these people that I am wrong in my assertions?  Which ones? 

Perhaps the Ambassador didn't say the things he said?  Perhaps the quotes that I put up from the Polish officials weren't real?  Try and stick to the post rather than trying to deflect the topic as Belvis has tried to do.   You two should get married.  Every time you read something disagreeable, you try to take the discussion off topic.

Can you actually respond to the comments by the Ambassador or is that beyond your ability which is to snipe at the edges?   Do you even care or are you just here to troll the forum for your own amusement?

[fathertime]

I didn't correct Boe because I happen to agree with her.  I also happen to agree with Mendy.  What is your point, Fathertime?  Are you stating that because I didn't debate with either of these people that I am wrong in my assertions?  Which ones? 

Perhaps the Ambassador didn't say the things he said?  Perhaps the quotes that I put up from the Polish officials weren't real?  Try and stick to the post rather than trying to deflect the topic as Belvis has tried to do.   You two should get married.  Every time you read something disagreeable, you try to take the discussion off topic.

Can you actually respond to the comments by the Ambassador or is that beyond your ability which is to snipe at the edges?   Do you even care or are you just here to troll the forum for your own amusement?

I'm happy some people here know enough to correct your misrepresentations (Or some might just take what you say as fact)...so for you to try harangue Belvis even going so far as taking personal shots, while making misrepresentations (that keep getting corrected) of your own doesn't seem right, hence my comments.   I'm not interested in marrying Belvis, but since you brought it up, go ahead and marry him yourself, since that is where your mind is. 


I don't really have a comment on the history you are discussing, but I know for certain,given what I've read thus far, I wouldn't take your version of it, as anything close to fact.  Hearing from several sides has been interesting.   


Please carry on.  Be accurate, and avoid unnecessary personal shots, and you should be fine.      [size=78%] [/size]


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Which assertion was wrong?  I stated that Russia has invaded Poland five times.  Boe said that neither's hands were clean.  She is correct.  So was I.  I stated that none were recent history.  She mentioned the civil war.  But then she stated that most of the fighting was done in Ukraine. Which is also correct.  The only invading of the other country has been done by the Soviets in recent history. 

I had no reason to correct Boe, but if I wanted to I would point out the term invade, which I used.  The Polish-Soviet War in 1920 occurred almost exclusively in Ukraine.

Boe was accurate.  So was I.  Just because you don't know the history involved doesn't stop you from throwing out your crap, once again, trolling me.   Congrats, you tried again to steer the topic away from the Ambassador's  comments which you now admit you have no desire to comment on.

[fathertime]

   Just because you don't know the history involved doesn't stop you from throwing out your crap, once again, trolling me.   Congrats, you tried again to steer the topic away from the Ambassador's  comments which you now admit you have no desire to comment on.

Who started throwing out the personal shots at Belvis?  That was YOU.


 As for me, I am entitled to read at times without commenting on certain subject matter. 

Which assertion was wrong?  I stated that Russia has invaded Poland five times.  Boe said that neither's hands were clean.  She is correct.  So was I.  I stated that none were recent history.  She mentioned the civil war.  But then she stated that most of the fighting was done in Ukraine. Which is also correct.  The only invading of the other country has been done by the Soviets in recent history. 

I had no reason to correct Boe, but if I wanted to I would point out the term invade, which I used.  The Polish-Soviet War in 1920 occurred almost exclusively in Ukraine.
 

Without outside posters correcting your comments, your one-sided points were a misrepresentation.  You were right to take your lumps, as they were given gently enough. 
I don't think you should be treating Belvis so poorly (personal shots) for stating what he believes is correct and helping to explain/correct your inaccuracies, while explaining his own Russian viewpoint. 


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Unfortunately, you still don't get what's happening in the world right now. 

Russia is trying to re-assert itself on the world stage.  In doing so, it is using Soviet tactics that remind those who remember of the great lie perpetrated by the Russian government and on the Soviet people.  Today we see that lie again.  Belvis is a proponent of it.  Belvis disputes that Russia is in Ukraine.  Whenever anything is displayed against the Russian government, such as the inane and infuriating comments Russia's ambassador to Poland made, Belvis jumps to defend both him and his comments. 

Belvis demonstrates the same qualities that are being used by the Troll Factory in Peter.  It is not too difficult to imagine that any digital repositories of Russian/Western relations would have representation of that disinformation.

The user, Belvis, took immediate issue with the posting of the Ambassador's comments and that it was offensive to the Poles.  Rather than accept that it had infuriated the Poles, which it did, he chose to try and assuage the membership and misdirect them using mendacity and skewed history which was quickly refuted by other members.  I chose to point out that this misdirection and set of lies used to prop up the Ambassador corresponds directly to what a paid troll would say.  And, yes, I believe Belvis is a paid troll.

I have said repeatedly that his tactics and remarks are that of a paid troll. 

Should you wish to defend the user, Belvis, have at it.

Fathertime, yes, even you have a roll on this forum.  Without you, we'd all be agreeing with each other.   Readership would drop considerably.   But I refuse to support someone that I believe is a paid troll (or trolls), whose sole purpose is to misdirect a forum to the end of Russia's political lies.

[Boethius]

Belvis' views are not out of line with what many, perhaps most, Russians in Russia believe. 

I understand what he is saying about history, and his view is in line with what was taught in the USSR, and what is still commonly believed.  Poland did, in fact, make a pact with Germany in the belief such a treaty would protect it from invasion.  Stalin did believe Hitler would not invade the USSR, so strongly did he believe this, that he refused to believe both Molotov and Victor Sorge, who reported most of Operation Barbarossa.  What is glossed over, of course, is the invasion of Eastern Poland (predominantly ethnically Ukrainian), and the tens of thousands who were killed by the Soviets in the interwar period after the Soviet invasion.

[mendeleyev]

I don't know. Since you raise this question you'd better to answer it.

I don't need to answer something that I asked. But, I can understand why you are afraid to answer it.

I also understand why you are afraid to take a tour, which are fairly common. If you knew Poles, you'd know this.

So you post to keep your native English tongue from rusting. Interesting.

[jone]

Mendy,  I noted the same thing.  I was actually wandering about it.

[jone]

Belvis' views are not out of line with what many, perhaps most, Russians in Russia believe. 

I understand what he is saying about history, and his view is in line with what was taught in the USSR, and what is still commonly believed.  Poland did, in fact, make a pact with Germany in the belief such a treaty would protect it from invasion.  Stalin did believe Hitler would not invade the USSR, so strongly did he believe this, that he refused to believe both Molotov and Victor Sorge, who reported most of Operation Barbarossa.  What is glossed over, of course, is the invasion of Eastern Poland (predominantly ethnically Ukrainian), and the tens of thousands who were killed by the Soviets in the interwar period after the Soviet invasion.

Stalin believed that Sorge's report was disinformation perpetrated by the Nazis.  His reward?  Imprisonment and eventual death. 

Boe, I have known many Russians.  My perspective is unique in that, up until a year ago, did business with them.  The attitudes displayed this year are like nothing in my history of knowing the Russian people.  There is a huge and active disinformation campaign targeted at the Russian people, themselves.  The problem is that the rest of the world sees it for what it is.

One of the sites I watch, with regularity, is the site that evaluates the Ukrainian conflict from the perspective of social media.  It is interesting to watch the quieting down of all confrontation as Putin gets ready to address the United Nations.  Of course, one of the things he will ask for is the elimination of sanctions.  I would guess he will pose this as a new statement of where things are, etc.

For the record, on an individual basis, the Russians are not suffering much.  On a national scale, the Kremlin put aside a huge rainy day fund that it is exhausting now due to oil prices and the lack of foreign investment.  When that money is gone, Russia will have no choice but to either rescind its empire goals or to lash out in a full scale war of acquisition.

[jone]

Kind of a funny thing happened over the weekend.  A Russian TV station stated that John Tefft, Ambassador to Russia, attended the Opposition rally.  They displayed an (obviously) photo-shopped picture of him.  The US Embassy decided to have a little fun with it and tweeted the following:

“Ambassador Tefft spent the day off at home,” the embassy said in a tweet. “But thanks to Photoshop [he] can end up wherever.”



Here is the ambassador in the original picture and three photo-shopped ones.

[mendeleyev]

Teft is a cool customer, and much more ready for the challenge than the failed McFaul. That was a dirty trick, and the Kremlin has done nothing to defend Teft--telling in and of itself.

[Belvis]

So you post to keep your native English tongue from rusting. Interesting.

Mendy, you possess the nice talent to make compliments.  I understand your success with women.

Russia is trying to re-assert itself on the world stage.

The plain truth. I hope you don't consider it as the indecent activity 

Belvis disputes that Russia is in Ukraine.  Whenever anything is displayed against the Russian government, such as the inane and infuriating comments Russia's ambassador to Poland made, Belvis jumps to defend both him and his comments. 

Your quota for truth is exhausted. Never contested the Russian involvement in Ukraine. And why do you distort my lesson of Polish history? I did not expect  gratitude from you, but you could recognize my efforts in uncovering for you some  dark pages  of history you did not know about.

And, yes, I believe Belvis is a paid troll.

You should clarify yourself. You believed some time ago I'm a FSB agent. FSB agent can't be called a paid troll, it would be disrespectfully to a man on duty 

[Gator]

Regarding Putin's interview with 60 Minutes, he said nothing new.  Perhaps his speech today at the UN will have more substance. 

Some key points:

-  The collapse of the USSR was a great tragedy because suddenly 25 million Russians found themselves residing outside their country.

-  Russia is increasing its military presence in Syria to support the "legitimate government", a long-term ally.  He cited Libya as an example of the problems with displacing the "legitimate" government.  And he implicitly contrasted that with Ukraine where the "legitimate government" was overthrown.

-  He mentioned Obama's failure to stop ISIS.

60 Minutes pushed hard that Putin was with the KGB, and "once with the KGB, always with the KCB."   Such seems pointless in my opinion, and Putin easily dismissed it as not important, saying he learned some skills there.

[jone]

Belvis -

Oh, when did they stop paying people in the FSB?   

Nice deflect on the English as first language observation.  There is no one on the forum who believes that English is your first language.  Incidentally, the word is 'Wondering'.  Not 'Wandering'.  As in, 'we were wondering why you claim that English is your first language'.

But was cute deflect.  Why do you deflect?

As for your continued historical argument that your Ambassador was correct and, therefore, was correct in telling the Poles that they were partially responsible for WWII?  Well, you are as deluded as your Ambassador.  That is not the way you treat your host country, regardless of your interpretation of history.

Since there is no way to prove who you are, I will remain in my belief that you are a paid troll.  That is my right as a member of the forum to believe whatever I choose.  Unless, of course, I happen to be in Russia.  Then I will be subjected to a constant barrage of propaganda.

Russia is on a course to conflict.  You talk about history and yet have not learned its lessons.  V.V. Putin exclaims that there  are 25 million Russians living outside of Russia: Gator, I saw the interview.  Thanks for the tip.  We have seen Putin's protracted solution.  Russia will attempt to regain territory that was part of the former Soviet Union piece by piece and displace people (check with the Crimean Tartars) while doing so.  The last time we saw someone attempt to do the same, WWII erupted.  Germany's unquenchable desire for land was the true cause of the 2nd World War.  It was not Poland's or any other country's lack of political alliances. 

I wonder what the Russians called the invasion and occupation of Poland and the Baltics in 1939?  It wasn't called the Great Patriotic War then.   

[fathertime]

Unfortunately, you still don't get what's happening in the world right now. 

Russia is trying to re-assert itself on the world stage.   

We (the US) are near bankrupt in some respects....Others need to take the stage.  I don't think we have done too well overall when we have had the floor.

Fathertime, yes, even you have a roll on this forum.  Without you, we'd all be agreeing with each other.   Readership would drop considerably.   But I refuse to support someone that I believe is a paid troll (or trolls), whose sole purpose is to misdirect a forum to the end of Russia's political lies.

Happy to be your useful idiot then.   There used to be quite a few posters coming from different angles, although most have been run off by the insults.  I don't think Belvis is a paid troll, he is merely expressing himself.  It seems that practically anybody who doesn't agree is either an idiot, troll, or wannabe Russian. 


Fathertime! 

[Muzh]

Because you don't know the history of WWII I feel an obligation to educate you. Then you'll understand what Ambassador meant, and what Poles know better than you.
Cites from Wikipedia in article Munich Agreement in 1938:

Hi Beavis, that's bullshit.


The territory that Poland "demanded" from the Czech was already theirs when the Treaty of Versailles was signed after WWI. You remember WWI, right? Or that didn't exist either?


Anyway, when things were getting hostile and the Czechs had moved their army to face the NAZIs Poland decided to take what was theirs originally and demanded this territory be returned to them.


Now, here is the irony. Czechoslovakia, also being formed as a result of the Treaty of Versailles, was quite socialistic at the time, the same as Hungary and had sympathies towards the USSR. Poland, OTOH was very nationalistic (is the Pope Catholic?) and not too keen of the Soviet mentality. Still, they could have banded together against Hitler but, NO, they stuck to their principles. Better to be invaded by a fascist country than to band with a neighbor they've know for millenia to fight a common enemy, right?


Let me ask you, do you believe Alaska is still Russian territory? Not that Putin can do anything about it without getting his sorry ass kicked.

[Muzh]

We (the US) are near bankrupt in some respects....Others need to take the stage.  I don't think we have done too well overall when we have had the floor.

Are you a Conservative hardliner? Because these are definitely the useful idiots who prattle this nonsense scripted to them by the Corporations.

Happy to be your useful idiot then.   There used to be quite a few posters coming from different angles, although most have been run off by the insults.  I don't think Belvis is a paid troll, he is merely expressing himself.  It seems that practically anybody who doesn't agree is either an idiot, troll, or wannabe Russian. 


Fathertime!

Keep in mind I didn't call you one, just politely asked if you were one. 


Beavis may or may not be a paid troll, which is irrelevant to me. However, I will call him on any bullshit he posts.

[fathertime]

Are you a Conservative hardliner? Because these are definitely the useful idiots who prattle this nonsense scripted to them by the Corporations.

How do we manage our giant debt going forward?  Actually I think there are ways, but in certain respects we are not moving in that direction currently. 


No,  not a Conservative hardliner.  Is it corporations that are scripting this?  I hadn't heard that before, how does it benefit a corporation to assert the nation has a serious financial issue?


Fathertime!