More Bad News for Russia

[BillyB]

Yes, Russia is morally right to put an end to a war that has cost so many lives and has lead to massive refugee outflow, on a scale not seen for a long while.  I don't know if you've been to Syria or anywhere close, so I don't know on what grounds you say he is "not well-liked".  While the small minority of politically-motivated folks got tired of Assad's oppression and decided to stand up against it, most people were just going about their lives (see current American politics).

With over 400,000 dead and 12 million Syrians displaced from their homes, it's safe to assume Assad isn't well liked. If he cared about his country, he would've stepped down to save lives when things started to get violent. Assad and his father ruled Syria for 45 years. People wanted something different. Russia supporting Assad is prolonging the misery of the Syrian people. We can be sure Assad mortgaged Syria's future to pay back Russia for their support so the Assad family may run the country for decades to come.

As to toppling the government in Ukraine, you are confusing me.  The Maidan protesters ran the democratically elected government out of town with American backing.  Do you think Russia gets excited when the Americans practice regime change on their doorstep?  They sure do!

What kind of news have you been watching to get your facts? The democratically elected government didn't get ran out of town, only the Ukrainian president did. It was proven he was very corrupt so the people made a wise decision. America didn't get involved with regime change there. As a matter of fact, America accepted the democratically elected and corrupt government in the Rada(parliament) and Vice Prez Biden went over there and gave a speech telling them they need to clean up their corruption if they want real change.

I honestly don't know what you mean by "people friendly".  Every country is made up of people so how any one could exist without being "people friendly", I seriously do not know.  Russia is not a gulag, wasteland, or whatever else you may think.  It is a normal country, where people live and get wealthier or poorer, happier or sadder, etc etc.  They even still enjoy the right to not get screamed at as "Murderer!" for wearing a fur coat.  Everyone in this planet is just trying to get by and make the best of life.  Russia is no different and it is easy for me to recognize how you come to this conversation with an idea of American superiority and assuredness that your ideas are right and are universally applicable.  Look how your "democracy" is working now.  Fix that and then talk about democracy and freedom in other countries that aren't asking for your advice.

America should compete with Russia in a different way to gain Russia's confidence.  That would start at a minimum by ceasing to meddle on Russia's doorstep.  By the way, you guys have far more guns out and about in the world than Russia and you've done plenty to stop countries from moving on to bigger and better things.

If you get a chance to run Canada, you can align yourselves with Russia. Fortunately for now Canada's got people running the government that see a big difference between America and Russia and wisely chose America to partner with like most nations have done. It seems you want to blame Ukraine for all it's woes but Ukraine would love to trade places with Canada with them being next to America and you being next to Russia. I don't think you can control your own destiny living next to Russia.

[Bounder]

Bounder should educate himself on many matters of state that he knows little about. He's just reciting the Kremlin's news sites.

We're awash in propaganda.  Other's just recite Washington's lines, also known as the Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, NBC, and CBS.  And yes, I have noticed how those respectable news organizations behave as of late.

[Bounder]

With over 400,000 dead and 12 million Syrians displaced from their homes, it's safe to assume Assad isn't well liked. If he cared about his country, he would've stepped down to save lives when things started to get violent. Assad and his father ruled Syria for 45 years. People wanted something different. Russia supporting Assad is prolonging the misery of the Syrian people. We can be sure Assad mortgaged Syria's future to pay back Russia for their support so the Assad family may run the country for decades to come.

Come on, Billy, the mass dead and displace have come over this whole long sordid spell, most of it which has been during full out conflict with jihadists, I mean freedom fighters.  I know a little about Syrian history myself and even more.  The country is a tragedy now whereas only a few short years ago it was stable and prosperous.  What changed?  The Arab Spring.  Where is the Arab Spring now?  Dictatorship and Islamism.  In Syria it is civil war.  Either Assad stays for the time being or it is another Libya or Iraq.  Russia's got this one right.  If you disagree, I dare you to go be the new democratic head of state in democratically free Syria.  People want peace,  not chaos.  America is wrong. Period.

The good news is that your new president understands that the real enemy is the terrorists.  Maybe he'll change his mind when he reads Washington's rationale for creating ISIS and Al Qaeda. And that will be telling

What kind of news have you been watching to get your facts? The democratically elected government didn't get ran out of town, only the Ukrainian president did. It was proven he was very corrupt so the people made a wise decision. America didn't get involved with regime change there. As a matter of fact, America accepted the democratically elected and corrupt government in the Rada(parliament) and Vice Prez Biden went over there and gave a speech telling them they need to clean up their corruption if they want real change.


If you get a chance to run Canada, you can align yourselves with Russia. Fortunately for now Canada's got people running the government that see a big difference between America and Russia and wisely chose America to partner with like most nations have done. It seems you want to blame Ukraine for all it's woes but Ukraine would love to trade places with Canada with them being next to America and you being next to Russia. I don't think you can control your own destiny living next to Russia.

Sorry, my mistake, only the democratically elected President got run out of town.  Mea Culpa.  It was proven he was very corrupt?  If that is the measure why is he the only Ukrainian leader that has been run out of town?  They are all dirty, slimy, and corrupt.  And they are picked by Ukrainians!  They get what they deserve.  Instead of going to war with their own government to make things better, they go to war with Russian-Ukrainians instead.  There, that's going to make it better!  It's just the same old story for Ukraine.  This never was a serious country.

Don't worry, I'm not planning on running Canada.  Please let me know if you have plans for running the US.  Everything we are saying here is all nonsense and doesn't matter a lick    You are making my point though.  Canada is geographically fixed and so is Ukraine.  Canada has found a way to make it work with a belligerent, war-mongering neighbour.  Ukraine could too if only they had half the brains to figure it out.

[jone]

Its  been a couple of hundred years since America was belligerent and war-mongering with our neighbor to the North.  Whereas Russia plays hard ball every chance it gets.  Syria is Russia's entre into the Middle East.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[AkMike]

We're awash in propaganda.  Other's just recite Washington's lines, also known as the Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, NBC, and CBS.  And yes, I have noticed how those respectable news organizations behave as of late.

If you only listen to one side that's what you recite as the Holy Gospel. If you actually have spent years there and see what's actually going on you'd know the facts.

[BillyB]

America is wrong.

Obama was wrong on Syria. Not every American agreed on his half ass'd attempt at ending the war which ended up prolonging it and allowing terrorist groups to grow like none other in history and created one of the biggest if not the biggest refugee situation in history.

If that is the measure why is he the only Ukrainian leader that has been run out of town?  They are all dirty, slimy, and corrupt.  And they are picked by Ukrainians! 

Most Ukrainian politicians are corrupt and I do wonder why the people didn't run them out of town. It's one reason I don't believe America was the driving force for revolution. America does promote democracy in countries just as Russia promotes their brand of government but America didn't arm the Ukrainian people and didn't tell them who to remove and who should remain in the Ukrainian government.

It's just the same old story for Ukraine.  This never was a serious country.

The story has changed and they are getting serious. Can you tell Russia to back off from destabilizing their nation so they can proceed with a better future?

[jone]

Ahem, Mike,

You might want to revise that last post a bit.  The guy has a history with Russia.  He is no neophyte.

[jone]

Obama was wrong on Syria. Not every American agreed on his half ass'd attempt at ending the war which ended up prolonging it and allowing terrorist groups to grow like none other in history and created one of the biggest if not the biggest refugee situation in history.

Most Ukrainian politicians are corrupt and I do wonder why the people didn't run them out of town. It's one reason I don't believe America was the driving force for revolution. America does promote democracy in countries just as Russia promotes their brand of government but America didn't arm the Ukrainian people and didn't tell them who to remove and who should remain in the Ukrainian government.

The story has changed and they are getting serious. Can you tell Russia to back off from destabilizing their nation so they can proceed with a better future?

Amazing - the focus on Ukraine.  My guess is that if Putin had his little charade figured out when Poland and the Czech Republic went through their changes of government, he would have tried to destabilize them as well. 

The simple fact is that Putin needs to control Ukraine to have any chance at all of putting together his little economic group.   Ukraine, at 44 Million is the most important trading partner.  If Ukraine does wind up tying into the West, then Russia can kiss economic stability through partnerships goodbye.

[JayH]

Amazing - the focus on Ukraine.  My guess is that if Putin had his little charade figured out when Poland and the Czech Republic went through their changes of government, he would have tried to destabilize them as well. 

The simple fact is that Putin needs to control Ukraine to have any chance at all of putting together his little economic group.   Ukraine, at 44 Million is the most important trading partner.  If Ukraine does wind up tying into the West, then Russia can kiss economic stability through partnerships goodbye.

That ship has sailed Jone.
All we need now is to see if Putin survives while the oil price falls below $20.
I also expect to see the Republicans  do as they urged Obama to do in Ukraine  ie send meaningful military equipment.
The potential loss of face by Russia and Putin when faced with a military defeat by Ukraine will start the process of change in Russia as we know it.

[JayH]

Ahem, Mike,

You might want to revise that last post a bit.  The guy has a history with Russia.  He is no neophyte.

What?  A 2 1/2 minute visit and a couple of years on RUA  with the Kremlin worshippers?

When did that become meaningful "history"?

What the guy has shown is ongoing ignorance on matters Ukraine as he preaches the Kremlin propaganda bs .

[Bounder]

Its  been a couple of hundred years since America was belligerent and war-mongering with our neighbor to the North.  Whereas Russia plays hard ball every chance it gets.  Syria is Russia's entre into the Middle East.  Nothing more, nothing less.

That's my point Jone.  Canada has figured out how to make it work, while the US continues it's belligerence elsewhere.  Ukraine could try to do the same, understanding it's geographic realities.  Because those won't change.

US takes it's entry points to the Middle East very seriously.  So does Russia.  It's no different.  Let's see what happens when Saudi goes up in flames....

[jone]

What?  A 2 1/2 minute visit and a couple of years on RUA  with the Kremlin worshippers?

When did that become meaningful "history"?

What the guy has shown is ongoing ignorance on matters Ukraine as he preaches the Kremlin propaganda bs .

One of the neat things about the forum is that you get to actually know some of the people.  Bounder's story is not one for me to tell.  It's his.  But I know enough of it to tell you that you don't know about it.  Rather than make assumptions that do not make any sense, why don't you ask Bounder where his knowledge base comes from.  Or, for that matter, why he has specific knowledge about the Middle East.

It just makes you look silly, Jay, when you make assumptions about people from one or two posts.

[Bounder]

If you only listen to one side that's what you recite as the Holy Gospel. If you actually have spent years there and see what's actually going on you'd know the facts.

I don't listen to one side, but I may provide a one-sided argument, if only to counter the onslaught of arguments on the other side.  I didn't spend years there, although I have spent some time there (not sure which there we are talking about now, but that's ok), so I'm going to have to concede that to you.

Having lived abroad and at home and having compared and been aware of my own perspective during that process, I don't, however, think being in a place is always the best way of objectively understanding it.  Being in a place is a very good way of understanding it subjectively, though.  And that has immense value, IMO.

[jone]

That's my point Jone.  Canada has figured out how to make it work, while the US continues it's belligerence elsewhere.  Ukraine could try to do the same, understanding it's geographic realities.  Because those won't change.

US takes it's entry points to the Middle East very seriously.  So does Russia.  It's no different.  Let's see what happens when Saudi goes up in flames....

The US, even with Israel, has pretty well mucked up the Middle East.  But AK Mike is right.  If Russia does not get a return from the Middle East (which they won't) then Putin's little game he has played has further depleted Russia's resources.  And when they start dipping into the Russian pensions, there will be hell to pay in Moskva.  Russia made an agreement with China whereby they are almost giving away their oil.  The Chinese are paying no more for their oil than Trump did to the US in income taxes.  Russia is in even bigger trouble if oil prices drop again.

[JayH]

One of the neat things about the forum is that you get to actually know some of the people.  Bounder's story is not one for me to tell.  It's his.  But I know enough of it to tell you that you don't know about it.  Rather than make assumptions that do not make any sense, why don't you ask Bounder where his knowledge base comes from.  Or, for that matter, why he has specific knowledge about the Middle East.

It just makes you look silly, Jay, when you make assumptions about people from one or two posts.

You need to read what was written -- so tell me-- he has been in Russia for more than 5 minutes?
Has he ever been in Ukraine?
My comments were obviously direct at FSU -- and not the whole glad bag of inane ideas . Perhaps you could direct your comments at some of the ignorance that gets aimed at me -- I seemed to have missed that.

[JayH]

One of the things that amuses me( not) on the forum is that when the thread title is  --

MORE BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA

and topics of what is bad news for Russia are posted is that we have seen a procession of posters attempting to divert the thread into a negative discussion about Ukraine  -- sort of shows what is in the heads of those people doesn't it?

There are plenty of threads about Ukraine on the forum.

[Bounder]

That ship has sailed Jone.
All we need now is to see if Putin survives while the oil price falls below $20.
I also expect to see the Republicans  do as they urged Obama to do in Ukraine  ie send meaningful military equipment.
The potential loss of face by Russia and Putin when faced with a military defeat by Ukraine will start the process of change in Russia as we know it.

With all due respect to you, Jay, oil is currently trading at well above $40 a barrel and has been on an upward trend since the crash.

You spread disinformation.

The other day you told me to look at how Trump is aligning with Ukraine.  So I did.  And he isn't.  I looked at his foreign policy plank on his website and it didn't mention anything you said.

I looked at the headlines and they all say that Ukraine is now freaking out and frantically deleting twitter posts.  Why?  Because once again, Ukraine has it wrong.  They always do.

You are starting to remind me of a Ukrainian.  Spreading disinformation and not trustworthy.

Russia and Putin faced with military defeat by Ukraine?  That definitely sounds Ukrainian!!!

[Bounder]

Obama was wrong on Syria. Not every American agreed on his half ass'd attempt at ending the war which ended up prolonging it and allowing terrorist groups to grow like none other in history and created one of the biggest if not the biggest refugee situation in history.

Most Ukrainian politicians are corrupt and I do wonder why the people didn't run them out of town. It's one reason I don't believe America was the driving force for revolution. America does promote democracy in countries just as Russia promotes their brand of government but America didn't arm the Ukrainian people and didn't tell them who to remove and who should remain in the Ukrainian government.

The story has changed and they are getting serious. Can you tell Russia to back off from destabilizing their nation so they can proceed with a better future?

I think we agree on some points.  It's nice to know that.  As far as promotion of American democracy, I don't want Iraqi democracy and I don't want Libyan democracy.  In fact, it would be better if America would butt out of others affairs.  And I would say the same about Russia in that case.

The Americans responded as a responsible country when the Soviets tried to put nuclear missiles into Cuba.  Russia is responding as a responsible country as the US tries to set up NATO on its borders.

I can tell Russia anything and they won't listen to any of it. I'm just a peon in the big game, but I do honestly feel that Russia feels encroached and if the US backed off with NATO a bit, there could be a chance for dialogue.  And I, for one, would certainly welcome that.

[Bounder]

You need to read what was written -- so tell me-- he has been in Russia for more than 5 minutes?
Has he ever been in Ukraine?
My comments were obviously direct at FSU -- and not the whole glad bag of inane ideas . Perhaps you could direct your comments at some of the ignorance that gets aimed at me -- I seemed to have missed that.

Jay - for crying out loud.  Yes, I have been in Russia for more than 5 minutes.  It was exactly 7 minutes.

And, yes, I have been to Ukraine.

I spotted you from the very beginning with your Ukrainian Nationalist signature line.  I knew we would clash.  But I don't care if you hate Russia and love Ukraine and we are the opposite.  I will continue to respect you and read your posts and if we meet, I'm sure we could be friends.  But we will have to find another way than walking over all the dead between Moscow and Kiev to meet, because those lost lives are as meaningful to me as they are to you, regardless of nationality.  While I have an opinion, I am not in the war.  And if you are, I apologize for any disrespect you may have taken.

[JayH]

With all due respect to you, Jay, oil is currently trading at well above $40 a barrel and has been on an upward trend since the crash.

You spread disinformation.

The other day you told me to look at how Trump is aligning with Ukraine.  So I did.  And he isn't.  I looked at his foreign policy plank on his website and it didn't mention anything you said.

I looked at the headlines and they all say that Ukraine is now freaking out and frantically deleting twitter posts.  Why?  Because once again, Ukraine has it wrong.  They always do.

You are starting to remind me of a Ukrainian.  Spreading disinformation and not trustworthy.

Russia and Putin faced with military defeat by Ukraine?  That definitely sounds Ukrainian!!!

"You spread disinformation."

On the contrary-- you are attempting to attribute things I did not say to me.

On Trump-- I provided links to stories  -- for the reader to make what that will of them.That is why I quote the source of comment-- and not regurgitate it as my own.
You complained about the language they were in-- surely such a student of language could have translated
 them ?
Below I  quote what I wrote just a few posts above--
--pretty clear my comment was not about oil price today but was supposition of where it might go and the consequences
-- further comment is about something that may and could happen.

That ship has sailed Jone.
All we need now is to see if Putin survives while the oil price falls below $20.
I also expect to see the Republicans  do as they urged Obama to do in Ukraine  ie send meaningful military equipment.
The potential loss of face by Russia and Putin when faced with a military defeat by Ukraine will start the process of change in Russia as we know it.

So-- all in all -- no disinformation there.

[Bounder]

One of the things that amuses me( not) on the forum is that when the thread title is  --

MORE BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA

and topics of what is bad news for Russia are posted is that we have seen a procession of posters attempting to divert the thread into a negative discussion about Ukraine  -- sort of shows what is in the heads of those people doesn't it?

There are plenty of threads about Ukraine on the forum.

It's just because all the bad news in Ukraine! 

I take umbrage with the thread headline!

[Bounder]

Oh-- so quoting Trump is unreliable?
In the past Trump's off the cuff comments have rambled and often seemed contradictory  -- but  -- a clearer theme has emerged.
Fact is  right now  if he takes all the advice he will be given ,  Ukraine will get the help it needs.Trump will not be a limp wristed President.Obama was lame on issues where US could be accused of being an aggressor--  that will not worry Trump.
The door is open for Russia to rejoin  the world and be a good world citizen -- it is simple enough -- get out of Ukraine.Fact is it does not suit Putin's agenda to be at peace with the world.

Read the words-- Trump's words !


Now I'm all for Ukraine - Trump

 "US presidential candidate from the Republican Party, Donald Trump explained his attitude to the situation with Ukraine.

The new head of the United States billionaire Donald Trump unveiled a number of statements on the situation in Ukraine. Shared his thoughts in an interview with billionaire of The the New York the Times , reports "STS-1492.news".

"When he, Putin, came and seized the Crimea, he ripped the heart and soul, because there was all the money I was surprised I've heard that most of the revenue comes just from this region This -... The territory of the wealth, which means that the rest of Ukraine will be defeated, and that is how you can predict will happen very soon ... Look what they are doing in Ukraine, and you will realize that it is - a matter of time ", - said Trump.

Trump calls on European countries to continue support for Ukraine: "I do not like what is happening in Ukraine, but Europe, this problem affects more than us and it should take a leading role I have a feeling that people from different parts of Europe need to... together to help Ukraine. I think that Ukraine receives a decent respect from other parts of Europe. But Ukraine deserves this respect, it is a long time proves it. So, of Germany it is or about other countries, I do not think you get support that need. "

"We are fighting for Ukraine, but no one is fighting for Ukraine, but Ukraine itself, of course, and I say that it does not seem fair, and it does not seem logical," - concluded his speech by Trump."
http://ru.1492news.com/news/37074_1478761690

To highlight the ignorance of Bounder comment  above-

Some quotes from Trump manifesto in relation to Ukraine and Russia

The text of the election platform of the party referred to Russia mainly in a negative way, in the context of the various threats facing the United States. The word "Russia" occurs ten times.
"Despite its promises, Russia and China consider kiberoperatsiyi as part of its military doctrine even in peacetime. In response, we have to take measures in the diplomatic, financial and legal areas not involved in issuing visas of persons to freeze their assets, to start an investigation against them "- the document says.

The section on human rights, said that the welfare of the United States in particular will depend on the development of an independent judiciary and civil society in countries where the government has resorted to repression, such as China, Russia and many countries in the Middle East and Africa. "
"Together with allies support the preservation and, if necessary, strengthening of sanctions against Russia for as long as the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine will not be fully restored," - the document says.

"The hostility of Russia we will respond with the same determination that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. We do not accept changing of power in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Georgia or elsewhere, and will do all possible measures constitution to bring to justice all the perpetrators of aggression and assassinations ", - emphasized in the text of the platform.

The program also calls for Republicans to keep sanctions on Russia and Ukraine to continue to provide assistance.
"We also support adequate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and better coordination with NATO (on) defense planning" - the document says.

Jay, it seems to me like you a backtracking now.  You told me and others reading that those were
Trumps words.  They weren't.  They were the words of the reliably unreliable Ukrainian media.  I don't disagree that you sourced it, and no I'm not interested in going to translate Ukrainian fantasies myself.

You are acting like Ukrainians do, and it isn't pretty.  It is cringeworthy.

[JayH]

Jay - for crying out loud.  Yes, I have been in Russia for more than 5 minutes.  It was exactly 7 minutes.

And, yes, I have been to Ukraine.

I spotted you from the very beginning with your Ukrainian Nationalist signature line.  I knew we would clash.  But I don't care if you hate Russia and love Ukraine and we are the opposite.  I will continue to respect you and read your posts and if we meet, I'm sure we could be friends.  But we will have to find another way than walking over all the dead between Moscow and Kiev to meet, because those lost lives are as meaningful to me as they are to you, regardless of nationality.  While I have an opinion, I am not in the war.  And if you are, I apologize for any disrespect you may have taken.

I had a guy as late as yesterday here on the forum whose knowledge of me came from the Australian flag next to my name and the signature on posts ! Now he was telling me I was clueless because his mother was born in Kyiv and he had been there 10 years ago and in 2013 ! The fact that I have spent 10  -20 times or more  time in Ukraine  than him and in particular - recently seemed to escape him that I may have first hand knowledge of some things !
So easy for me to poke pins in the time on the ground. I am a strong proponent that no one has a mortgage on knowledge( of Ukraine)  or any topic -- and much can be learnt by reading.The problem is that when you start from the wrong premise  -everything that follows will be arse about.

It has been said repeatedly here-- I do not hate Russia or the Russian people  -- FULL STOP  I do hate what Putin and his Kleptocrats have done to the Russian people   and what he has done and is doing generally. Taken in the context of Ukraine -- I would be happy to see every Russian invader dead-if that is what it will take to get Russia out of Ukraine.

Respect for me ? Don't care. Respect for the brave people of Ukraine who have stood up to a bully in their quest for a decent life -- and lost many lives in that process -- that is the respect you should be showing.

[JayH]

Jay, it seems to me like you a backtracking now.  You told me and others reading that those were
Trumps words.  They weren't.  They were the words of the reliably unreliable Ukrainian media.  I don't disagree that you sourced it, and no I'm not interested in going to translate Ukrainian fantasies myself.

You are acting like Ukrainians do, and it isn't pretty.  It is cringeworthy.

You keep getting this wrong-- the words I referred to were and are specific quotes of Trump from his own documents.
They are quoted somewhere in the links provided.

You keep saying the Ukrainian media is unreliable --look at the sources .

[JayH]

Article  comments on the language issue-- some have raided it upthread here.

Putin, not Poroshenko, has destroyed future of Russian language in Ukraine

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko criticized by some for saying that Russia will never have the status of a state language in in his country is doing no more than ratifying what Russian President Vladimir Putin has already achieved: causing Ukrainians who have spoken Russian all their lives to drop that language and use Ukrainian.

Only a year ago, journalist Arkady Babchenko says in a Facebook post, discussions about making Russian a state language in Ukraine were “completely natural” and didn’t elicit “any particular antagonism”.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/12/babchenko-putin-not-poroshenko-has-destroyed-future-of-russian-language-in-ukraine/