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Author Topic: Putin is Ruining Russia  (Read 232955 times)

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Offline jone

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2014, 08:42:09 PM »
For those who want an interesting read:

This NEW REPUBLIC article demonstrates what where we stand with Putin right now.  It paints him as someone who is in a corner and has to claw his way out.  Not a good place for him (or the world) to be.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118890/european-sanctions-russia-put-putin-dangerous-corner

Here is the opening paragraph:

     Today is not a good day to be Vladimir Putin. A game that the Russian president was winning so deftly in the spring has turned on him in summer: The Ukrainian military is bearing down on the pro-Russian separatists in east Ukraine, and there’s word that it’s on the verge of splitting the rebel-held territory in two and that two major rebel leaders have fled. Putin's supporting these guys because of a position he staked out months ago, even though they’ve just gotten him into a whole lot of trouble by mistakenly shooting down a plane full of Dutch people. Which is why the Europeans have finally stopped allowing Putin to divide and conquer them, and announced their toughest sanctions to date, slamming his finance, defense, and energy industries. That's unfortunate, given that Europe is Russia's biggest energy market and that Russia depends on Europe for some 40 percent of its food and medicine. And, in case that wasn't enough, the United States piled on, too, sanctioning three major Russian banks.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline sleepycat

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Re: Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position(s)
« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
Dude you must either be too old

But wait!

I got a (almost) brand new 1987 Limited Edition Toyota MR2 with T-Top. Slapped a piggy ski rack and took it up to Tahoe to ski the first month with my buddy. I think I was 20

Let's do some rough arithmetic shall we...
2014 minus 1987 = 27
27 plus 20 = 47
therefore approximate age 47 give or take a couple of years

I pray to God, Bhudda, Allah etc that I don't turn into such a grumpy fart at that age.  :cluebat:



Offline Photo Guy

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2014, 11:30:01 PM »
GQ, why'd you post the video of McCain? Do you think he helped mastermind the revolution or supplied gasoline for the coctails?

I think most Ukrainians probably saw him as some goofy politician from far away, who was showing them support. Anyone's support was welcomed. Ukrainians mostly preferred the EU over Russia. Putin looks at Ukraine as a cultural possession. A possession that is apparently shunning him. Dictators do not like being rejected. When a dictator with powerful weapons throws a tantrum, it can be devastating.

Who cares about proof that Russia is firing weapons at Ukraine? It's already very clear that Russia is allowing powerful weapons to move from Russia into Ukraine. Is there any doubt about that? It's already clear that top military leaders are leading the separatist/terrorists. These leaders are Russian citizens. Putin should be confronted about that. Let's see if it happens at his next press conference.

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #228 on: July 30, 2014, 03:03:53 AM »

There seems to be a lot of asinine and uncalled for statements lately with all the people "watched", "moderated", and "banned" in the last few weeks. Everybody needs to take a step back and think before typing on these hot topics. The way people have debated each other here, they won't last long in a relationship. My comment was a tip, not an insult.
Correct. Don't step on the toe of a Russian. You got it right. :D 
 If we want to get along with our "American Big Brother" we need to agree on any C$%(&*^ p he thinks- this is the recepie of a Ukraninan- American Marriage hahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
(I am NOT Ukrainian))))))))))))))))
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 04:22:47 AM by Doll »

Offline Manny

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Re: Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position(s)
« Reply #229 on: July 30, 2014, 06:40:39 AM »
I still maintain, and always will, this recent conflict is *our* creation. We have been trying to wash our hands off it, but darn those blood stains just won't wash away easily...

 ;)

Its pleasing that some people over the pond get it.

On Jone's link that talks about the Togliatti car plants suspending operations, that is nothing unusual and often happens around August time. My wife is from there so I know this. So I wouldn't read much into that. Likewise, Russia wont threaten the big VW plant as the German money has transformed the regions surrounding it, and Germany is an important partner for Russia. The statement will be aimed squarely at Chevy production there.

Also, Jone's graph and assertion that this is a backhanded Putin overthrow attempt, I agree with that. The US would love nothing more than somebody pliable in the Kremlin and are daft enough to try to get the people to do it as they did in Ukraine. Oh wait, they tried that already in Russia and Putin put a stop to it.

As mentioned before, the sanctions - for what they are - will have minimal long term effect and be minimally implemented by the EU as the EU needs Russia's gas. You cant have it all ways. If the EU pushes Russia, it will put the gas price up to make up for it.

The New Republic article has a point as well. If the west pushes Putin hard, he isn't going to back down, he'll dig in deeper and fight. Giving up simply isn't in his or the Russian psyche. He will push back. Much of his support at home and abroad is boosted by the fact he stands up to aggressor countries like the US. He is one of the few that do.

Had the EU and the US not tried to bring Ukraine into the EU's orbit, none of this would have happened. Had they have accepted the eastern regions breaking away, allowing Russia non-EU land access to Crimea, he would have settled for that is my guess.

Where we are now is America - whether it realises it or not - is pushing for a war with Russia by its behaviour. You'll only push a bear so far into a hole with a stick until it turns on you. Fighting Russia in its own backyard will not be like bombing some blokes in a tent in the desert.

One thing we can say about Russia is it does not seek to impose its will across the world. Can we say the same of America?

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #230 on: July 30, 2014, 07:18:35 AM »
Quote
One thing we can say about Russia is it does not seek to impose its will across the world. Can we say the same of America?
Can we?

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #231 on: July 30, 2014, 07:23:53 AM »
I just read a little article this morning making the case for the USA to let E. Ukraine go. here is a preview:


Let Eastern Ukraine Go
[/size]It doesn't matter. It's a small, totally irrelevant piece of land.[/i][/size][/size]Give the separatists a measure of autonomy.Russia has already lost most of Eastern Europe, and in the last six months, they lost the loyalty of most of the Ukraine. There are few pockets and slivers on the Russian boarder that are still loyal to Russia. Give these small bits of land a decentralized status. No doubt, within a few years, they will rethink the wisdom of their decision.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/let-eastern-ukraine-go_b_5622170.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/color][/size][/color][/size]Fathertime! [/color]
T
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Gator

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Re: Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position(s)
« Reply #232 on: July 30, 2014, 07:43:24 AM »
Manny, It sounds as if you are one of those Brits who cater to the wealthy Russians buying Britain.   Do you answer "Yes sir boss" when they ask you to jump? 



As mentioned before, the sanctions - for what they are - will have minimal long term effect and be minimally implemented by the EU as the EU needs Russia's gas. You cant have it all ways. If the EU pushes Russia, it will put the gas price up to make up for it.


This is close to being a slave.  If not reversed, I envision a truck system.    Europe does not seem so grand anymore with a future Muslim majority, debt bondage to a dictator, flaccid military, etc.  Yes, America has it debt issues yet we don't cater to thugs and thieves. 

Maybe you don't speak for the majority of Europeans.   Do you have any recent polls to share?   

 
Quote
Much of his support at home and abroad is boosted by the fact he [Putin] stands up to aggressor countries like the US. He is one of the few that do.

Obama's appeasement tours are aggressive?  Obama's troop withdrawals are aggressive?

Quote
Had they have accepted the eastern regions breaking away, allowing Russia non-EU land access to Crimea, he would have settled for that is my guess.

Another poster pushing for a win-win!    Are you sure that the majority of the population of the "eastern regions" wants to be governed by Moscow?   Why don't you give independence to those parts of London that speak a language other than English.

Quote
Fighting Russia in its own backyard will not be like bombing some blokes in a tent in the desert.
  We will not fight Russia.  Russia is not a threat to the US.  We are not captive to Russian energy.  OTOH, keep in mind that Russia is not Argentina.

Quote
One thing we can say about Russia is it does not seek to impose its will across the world. Can we say the same of America?

When is the last time America invaded a sovereign area and annexed the land?   
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 07:46:04 AM by Gator »

Offline jone

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #233 on: July 30, 2014, 08:04:34 AM »
Gator,

I don't think Manny understands how upset the EU leadership is with Russia.  Merkel says he's not in his right mind (Putin - I don't think she knows Manny).  And she, historically, has been his best friend.  No, I don't think Europe is all that happy with Russia right now. 

As for GQ's broken record of US involvement:  The US involves itself in every country it can achieve trade with.   I don't think that the US was any more or less involved with Ukraine than any other country in Eastern Europe.  There are no 'FACTS' or smoking guns that the US was involved with Maidan.  That was a Ukrainian population's desire to move the country's economy towards a European one, not as a slave state to Russia.  But that doesn't play with GQ's narrative, that he expounds on every day.  He is obsessed with it.  (Not passionate - obsessed)

I firmly believe that Russia has no other play than to invade Ukraine.  Over the next few months Ukraine is going to come to full mobilization.  At that time, it would overwhelm any Russian terrorists still lurking in the Donbas.  So, if Putin holds true to his actions to date, I think a Russian invasion is back on the table.

Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline jone

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #234 on: July 30, 2014, 08:32:22 AM »
Maybe I should put this in the "Time for Some Humor' section:

(Russian Foreign Secretary) Lavrov is applying to the UN Security Council today to bring Russian 'peace keeping forces' into Ukraine to secure the MH17 site. 

Don't know about you readers, but it struck my funny bone.  I kept on wondering to myself if these were the same peace keeping forces that Putin sent to Crimea.

As an update on the situation on the ground in Donbas and Lugansk:

Ukrainian forces have split the two regions and are controlling the area in between, which coincidentally, is exactly where MH17 came down.  Absent direct Russian involvement, there is no way to reinforce Donbas rebel forces.

Attached is a map of the latest fighting.  There is a strategic hill that controls the border ares in Southern Donbas that was highly contested last night.  It is still in the hands of the ATO forces.  The map presented here is actually one that was supplied by separatist sympathizers.



The red squiggly line represents the area that the wreckage from MH17 is located in.  As anyone can see, it represents a strategic location.  I wonder why the Russians would like to put peace keeping forces there?
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #235 on: July 30, 2014, 08:51:23 AM »
I just read a little article this morning making the case for the USA to let E. Ukraine go. here is a preview:


Let Eastern Ukraine Go
It doesn't matter. It's a small, totally irrelevant piece of land.Give the separatists a measure of autonomy.Russia has already lost most of Eastern Europe, and in the last six months, they lost the loyalty of most of the Ukraine. There are few pockets and slivers on the Russian boarder that are still loyal to Russia. Give these small bits of land a decentralized status. No doubt, within a few years, they will rethink the wisdom of their decision.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/let-eastern-ukraine-go_b_5622170.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Fathertime!
T





No offense, but that was ridiculous.  Comparing the Donbas region, where another country is fomenting discord, and is not supported by the majority of the populace, to Quebec, where the separatist movement is homegrown, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what is occurring in Ukraine.  Moreover, Canada has a strong rule of law.  The rights of Quebec are constitutionally enshrined, having been negotiated over decades, mostly by Canadian Prime Ministers who hailed from Quebec.


Of course the terrorists are now calling for a ceasefire.  Because they are losing, and Russia faces sanctions for its covert proxy war.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #236 on: July 30, 2014, 08:56:59 AM »
Manny, It sounds as if you are one of those Brits who cater to the wealthy Russians buying Britain.   Do you answer "Yes sir boss" when they ask you to jump? 


This is close to being a slave.  If not reversed, I envision a truck system.    Europe does not seem so grand anymore with a future Muslim majority, debt bondage to a dictator, flaccid military, etc.  Yes, America has it debt issues yet we don't cater to thugs and thieves. 

Maybe you don't speak for the majority of Europeans.   Do you have any recent polls to share?   

 
Obama's appeasement tours are aggressive?  Obama's troop withdrawals are aggressive?

Another poster pushing for a win-win!    Are you sure that the majority of the population of the "eastern regions" wants to be governed by Moscow?   Why don't you give independence to those parts of London that speak a language other than English.
  We will not fight Russia.  Russia is not a threat to the US.  We are not captive to Russian energy.  OTOH, keep in mind that Russia is not Argentina.

When is the last time America invaded a sovereign area and annexed the land?


Manny will never accept the fact that the majority of residents in the Donbas had no desire to break away, and probably still do not.  He will never accept the fact that the majority of the "separatists" (as he calls them) were not from the region, andy did not live in the region. They were and are, from a foreign country, i.e., Russia. 


I wonder how accepting Manny would be if Irish troops set up the "People's Republic of Northern England", sent IRA members to "liberate" northern England, took their orders from the IRA, looted his home, kidnapped him or worse, his child for ransom, and tortured his neighbours, all while taking orders from Sinn Fein.  Because that is exactly what he expects Ukrainians to accept. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:15:43 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Misha

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #237 on: July 30, 2014, 08:57:12 AM »

There are few pockets and slivers on the Russian boarder that are still loyal to Russia. Give these small bits of land a decentralized status. No doubt, within a few years, they will rethink the wisdom of their decision.


Who is this "they" you refer to? The mercenaries? The Russian operatives? Or the population who has no choice in the matter and is being robbed, raped, killed by its "liberators."

Offline jone

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #238 on: July 30, 2014, 08:59:11 AM »


I know it is difficult to see from the picture, but Russia is now sending units to the border that have MS or 'peace keeping' licenses on the mechanized troop transports. 

It is no great guess as to Putin's next move.  The carriers will go across the border on a peace keeping mission and be welcomed by the Lugansk People's Republic!
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #239 on: July 30, 2014, 09:03:09 AM »
Who is this "they" you refer to? The mercenaries? The Russian operatives? Or the population who has no choice in the matter and is being robbed, raped, killed by its "liberators."
Hey Misha, that was a part of the article you quoted.  They are the author's words so he would have to be asked that question.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #240 on: July 30, 2014, 09:17:15 AM »


I know it is difficult to see from the picture, but Russia is now sending units to the border that have MS or 'peace keeping' licenses on the mechanized troop transports. 

It is no great guess as to Putin's next move.  The carriers will go across the border on a peace keeping mission and be welcomed by the Lugansk People's Republic!
Russia  can send anything WITHIN its borders. You don't know if it will go "across the border"

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #241 on: July 30, 2014, 09:24:52 AM »
Quote
He will never accept the fact that the majority of the "separatists" (as he calls them) were not from the region, andy did not live in the region. They were and are, from a foreign country, i.e., Russia. 


 
 
Boe, how do you know?

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position(s)
« Reply #242 on: July 30, 2014, 09:28:07 AM »
But wait!

Let's do some rough arithmetic shall we...
2014 minus 1987 = 27
27 plus 20 = 47
therefore approximate age 47 give or take a couple of years

I pray to God, Bhudda, Allah etc that I don't turn into such a grumpy fart at that age.  :cluebat:

LMAO!

Well, now this just leaves you with only either of 3 realities. You are either: a) young and one fugly mofo; b) young and a fat fart. or c) all of the above...

...Last Friday I went back to Kharkov for a WOVO trip to see a woman that I previously meet during my last trip in September. After being taken to an apartment arranged by her, woman then left saying she had to go to work for a few hours on Saturday morning and will be back to see me after work. Around noon on Saturday I got a text from her saying that she got held up at work and will come later. The woman then dropped off the radar completely for the next 24 hours, not answering on Skype nor texting. By mid Sunday morning I was really starting to worry after being left there alone for more than a day, wondering if she had an accident or something like that....

 :P
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:49:09 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #243 on: July 30, 2014, 09:29:31 AM »
GQ, why'd you post the video of McCain? Do you think he helped mastermind the revolution or supplied gasoline for the coctails?
...

Well, would rather prefer the Clintons? David Petraeus? Lawrence Summers; Robert Zoellick, Carl Bildt; Shimon Peres; How'bout Tony Blair? Maybe Gerhard Shroeder; Dominique Strauss-Kahn; Mario Monti; Dalia Grybauskaite; Radel Sikorski?

Oh, last but not least, William Richardson perhaps?

Now, if these aren't good enough, how about Hunter Biden? Maybe David Leiter? Heck, John Kerry himself, perhaps? or maybe his S-I-L, Christopher Heinz? How'bout Devon Archer?

http://time.com/2964493/ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-burisma/

Take your pick, man...
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #244 on: July 30, 2014, 09:30:34 AM »
I know it is difficult to see from the picture, but Russia is now sending units to the border that have MS or 'peace keeping' licenses on the mechanized troop transports. 

It is no great guess as to Putin's next move.  The carriers will go across the border on a peace keeping mission and be welcomed by the Lugansk People's Republic!
Jone, there are more than one US AF base in Turkey wich is really close to Russia.
Do you have any more "great guess"?
Want to see the map ?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:38:39 AM by Doll »

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #245 on: July 30, 2014, 09:31:51 AM »

 
Boe, how do you know?


I've posted links.  The self proclaimed "leader" of the military operations in the Donbas, Russian citizen Igor Strelkov, stated that less than 1,000 locals signed up to fight, and that most of his fighters came from Russia.  Some are there due to beliefs, but most are mercenaries.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #246 on: July 30, 2014, 09:36:08 AM »
....As for GQ's broken record of US involvement:  The US involves itself in every country it can achieve trade with via regime changes and in their terms....

There, fix that for you. Places like Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iran, etc...and of course...Ukraine. I'm happy you finally see the light.

Quote
...I don't think that the US was any more or less involved with Ukraine than any other country in Eastern Europe.  There are no 'FACTS' or smoking guns that the US was involved with Maidan.  That was a Ukrainian population's desire to move the country's economy towards a European one, not as a slave state to Russia.  But that doesn't play with GQ's narrative, that he expounds on every day.  He is obsessed with it.  (Not passionate - obsessed)....

First I had to educate you to the meaning of the word *feminist*, then had to break your star & striped blinders and silly *generous attitude* perspective on global economics. But really...I'm really tired having to educate you on things you think you know. I rather enjoy you stumble around a bit on your own...

So for now, run along and post social media feeds in support of things you think you know. It's hysterical to watch really..
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:51:27 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #247 on: July 30, 2014, 09:42:20 AM »

I've posted links.  The self proclaimed "leader" of the military operations in the Donbas, Russian citizen Igor Strelkov, stated that less than 1,000 locals signed up to fight, and that most of his fighters came from Russia.  Some are there due to beliefs, but most are mercenaries.
Can't find the link, can you give it to me again?

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position(s)
« Reply #248 on: July 30, 2014, 09:44:27 AM »
...Had the EU and the US not tried to bring Ukraine into the EU's orbit, none of this would have happened....

Yup. Crimea would likely still be in Ukraine's dominion. I do have sympathy for Ukraine/Ukrainians. It's August now, in a few more months, they could've legitimately pursued whatever they believe need to be done, both legitimately and well within their constitutional authority; elect a new president.

Quote
...Where we are now is America - whether it realises it or not - is pushing for a war with Russia by its behaviour. You'll only push a bear so far into a hole with a stick until it turns on you. Fighting Russia in its own backyard will not be like bombing some blokes in a tent in the desert....

The US had miscalculated internal power-sharing overlords and got itself way too deep in this current mess. Post MH17, all this administration can say now is this is Europe's *problems*, literally having had an *oh-sh!t* moment and announces having nothing more to do with this mess.
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1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #249 on: July 30, 2014, 09:46:40 AM »
Can't find the link, can you give it to me again?

My link, and a video of Strelkov, are on this post by Misha -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372821#msg372821
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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