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Author Topic: EU Issues  (Read 77943 times)

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Offline msmob

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« on: May 30, 2018, 01:00:52 PM »
I know in the early-mid nineties in the UK there was a real bad recession and some people went out to Germany to work. Some later had problems in claiming their state pension as while they were out in Germany they missed a number of years of contribution needed to qualify.

Hardly.. then can catch up their UK Nat.Insurance contributions ..or receive a lower UK pension and receive a small German one..

Boy, this IS tosh...Trench, not for the first time posts a 'theory' with no practical experience..

Generally though you need to know the language almost fluently for most jobs abroad, plus with the Euro valued at less than the pound you might earn less. It's alright for a bit of fun but think the fad wore off. Anyway, all those currently residing abroad will get permanent residency rights when we leave the EU and if they later want, citizenship.

As you know I lived and worked in a Euroland nation and the above is nonsense.... A GBP was worth 1.5 dollars in June 2016 and 1.3 Euros... The costs of living went up in the UK as the Pound dropped in value. But suggesting a Euro being worth less means a worse std of living is bollox.

Living in Limassol, Cyprus costed less and my standard of living was BETTER.


Generally the EU used to work fine until the Eastern Bloc was admitted since all the original members bar a few such as Greece had comparable economies.

More tripe... Check out 'PIGS' or later PIIGS, Trench.. that's Portugal, Italy ( laterly Ireland) Greece and Spain

Cyprus had a pretty stable economy..The CY pound was 'worth' more than a GBP ( going by the Trench std of economic compassion)


Unfortunately instead of structuring the EU to take this into account with a two tier/speed system ego won the day and an awful mess was created.

For sure, the stringent stds required to join Euroland were either not adhered to or fibbed about to get in...Enlargement was the aim..  For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..

May be you should get 'on your bike' (?)as Norman Tebbitt said to lazy moaners....


Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar


msmob is fathertime giving you lessons in finance? Over how long has the euro appreciated against the dollar? In December 2016 the euro was at a low of about 1.04 USD to 1 euro now it's about 1.17 USD to 1. So over about 18 months the euro has appreciated against the USD.

However if one takes a longer view say from March 2014 when the euro was at 1.39 USD to 1 euro, then the euro has depreciated against the USD. With currency exchange rates things change over time so it's necessary to state a time frame when discussing them.

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..


msmob again you're not stating a time frame. Yes a few Poles have returned to Poland however since the UK was opened to the movement of Poles to the UK literally hundred of thousands of them have move to the UK. In fact Poles are one of the largest foreign born groups in the UK and the vast majority of them arrived since 2004 (about 94,000) when the UK people were told by their government that allowing Poles into the UK would only result in a few 10,000s arriving. In 2016 there were more than 900,000 Poles living in the UK. A ten times increase in population in 12 years. The overwhelming majority of Poles will remain in the UK and never return to Poland except for visits.

The ultimate irony is that Poles in Poland do not want any migrants from the EU or from Africa, the Middle East or elsewhere to move to Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom#Population_size

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2018, 02:36:39 PM »
The euro is up significantly over where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.


There is a flight of Poles from the UK.  Lots of articles on it.  That is particularly so for educated Poles, the ones the UK least wishes to lose.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online krimster2

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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2018, 02:49:48 PM »
BO

George (Soros)

is saying big storm ahead
urging bailing on equities
making me nervous
interest rate up in the usa causing dollar spike

I guess I can spend like a drunken sailor in Holland next week though
want a cheese wheel?


Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2018, 05:43:08 PM »
The euro is up significantly over where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Boethius unless you have a more reputable source than xe.com the euro is not up significantly from 2015-2017. The lowest point in the time frame you reference had the euro at about 1.04 USD to a euro. As of today it's about 1.16564 USD to a euro. About a 0.125 USD appreciation.

In May 2016 the euro was at about 1.14 USD to the euro. In August-October 2017 the euro was trading from 1.17 USD to 1.20 USD. IOW higher than it is today. 

Take a look:

http://xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=5Y


There is a flight of Poles from the UK.  Lots of articles on it.  That is particularly so for educated Poles, the ones the UK least wishes to lose.

True. Thousands of Poles are returning to Poland. Thousands of Poles, not hundreds of thousands. From 2004 to 2016, only 12 years, the number of Poles in the UK increased by 800,000 Poles. I doubt even 25% of that number will permanently return home.

Remember despite the massive number of Poles that moved to the UK over the 12 years and sent home millions of dollars, probably billions of dollars, in remittances, Poland now does not migrants from the EU, including I would assume the UK and migrants from outside the EU, moving to live and work in Poland. The height of irony.


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2018, 05:52:23 PM »
A lot of Poles do not move permanently to the U.K., particularly tradesmen and unskilled workers. They send their families back to Poland, and they move back and forth. One of the issues Cameron was trying to negotiate with the EU before the Brexit vote was to cut U.K. child benefits made to non resident Eastern European children.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2018, 06:56:55 PM »
A lot of Poles do not move permanently to the U.K., particularly tradesmen and unskilled workers. They send their families back to Poland, and they move back and forth. One of the issues Cameron was trying to negotiate with the EU before the Brexit vote was to cut U.K. child benefits made to non resident Eastern European children.

The massive influx of Poles after 2004 was one of the reasons for the rise in anger with the UK government over immigration. The government said there'd only be a few tens of thousands of Poles at the most coming to the UK. Of course this was pure BS many average Brits knew the influx would be massive.

When this was happening my wife and I visited London often. London along with Paris are her favorite cities. I heard the same question over and over from Brits. Why would Poles stay in Poland if they can legally live and work in the UK and make far more money than doing the same in Poland? Hundreds of thousands will come to the UK said the average Brit. The UK government it wouldn't happen. The government had to know hundreds of thousands of Poles would move to the UK.

Don't know how long the tradesmen and unskilled workers stay in the UK. I'd suspect they will over time stay in the UK longer and longer until they're in the country permanently. The simple fact is life is better for the unskilled in the UK than in Poland.

Better pay and more benefits. The social safety net in the UK beats the Polish version. Kids will get a better education, better jobs and future. 

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2018, 07:13:06 PM »
I’m not sure I agree their children have a better future, or a better education in the U.K.  Their PISA results are comparable. Poles work for less as they can go back to Poland and live well.  Here are a few articles-

http://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1BN26H

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/25/surge-in-poles-leaving-uk-since-brexit-vote-fuels-net-migration-drop



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2018, 08:07:16 PM »
Thousands of Poles are returning to Poland. Thousands of Poles, not hundreds of thousands. From 2004 to 2016, only 12 years, the number of Poles in the UK increased by 800,000 Poles. I doubt even 25% of that number will permanently return home.


Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2018, 08:25:15 PM »
Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/

Many people come to the US thinking they'll make enough money to return home and live comfortably in a low income country. What they don't understand is that they get used to the comforts of the US. Better living conditions. More and better job opportunities. Better food. Better life for their kids.

Maybe they have kids while in the US, then what, take the kids to a country the kids don't know? Maybe the kids don't speak the local language that well. Maybe the kids schooling in the US doesn't transfer to the parents' home country. Combine that with language problems and the kids aren't happy.

Apparently this is a problem with American raised and educated kids of Mexican descent moving to Mexico. The kids have lots of problems getting into a Mexican school. Foreign born kids of Mexican descent don't automatically have a right to an education in Mexico. The irony.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/11/13/498271392/invisible-children-raised-in-the-u-s-now-struggling-in-mexico

See this all the time in NYC. Many come and end up staying because life is better in the US. I've seen the same thing happen in Germany with Russians and other eastern Europeans. The same is probably holds true for the UK.

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2018, 08:40:56 PM »
I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2018, 09:12:28 PM »
I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.

Those of Mexican descent will tell you different. In NYC, one sees this everywhere. Mexican Spanish is widely spoken along with other central and South American versions.

Various holidays from central and south American countries are celebrated, although not officially. Flags from Mexico and other countries are flown throughout the city.

Mexicans refer to themselves as Mexican-American. The attitude is they are Mexican first and American second. Even many of those born in the US have that attitude.

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 09:15:19 PM »
That's really no different from many first and second generation immigrants.  Look at Russians, as but one example.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2018, 09:56:21 PM »
That's really no different from many first and second generation immigrants.  Look at Russians, as but one example.

I don't think it's anywhere near as extreme with other ethnic groups such as the Russians or Chinese. Yes my wife wants our daughters to learn the Russian language and culture however we don't have a Russian flag in the house. I only know of one Russian-American couple that have a Russian flag at home. They don't wave it around on Russian holidays or when the Russians win at the Olympics or hockey matches.

We don't really celebrate many Russian holidays although we'll go out for a meal with other Russian couples who celebrate holidays. We're not religious so don't celebrate Orthodox Christmas.  Don't listen to Putin's speeches although we listen to or watch news in Russian. About the only thing we do is go to see the Russian ballet companies when they visit. My wife took years of ballet lessons and wanted to be a ballerina until she grew taller than all the boys and was kicked out of ballet school.

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2018, 10:18:08 PM »
There are Russian stores, selling nothing but FSU products, in any city of any size in North America.   Some cities have more than one such store.  There is an entire area in Brighton Beach that is basically a "Little Odessa".  Russians all over the US, based on information from this site alone, hold V-Day parties, complete now with St. George's ribbons. 

There are Russian language schools, if I go to any park on a weekend, there are Russians having parties with shashlik and (illegal) alcohol, speaking Russian.  I do go to church, though a Ukrainian church, and  it is full of Ukrainian immigrant families every week.  In fact, in some parts of my city, they outnumber locals.  I have no reason to believe the Russian Church (there are two in my city) are any less well attended.

So, I believe you are mistaken.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline alex330

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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2018, 10:31:22 PM »
In general I find immigrants that are less educated, feel insecure or have limited upward mobility or options will cling to their old culture moreso than those who do. No hard numbers behind it, but just an observation.

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2018, 11:19:44 PM »
There are Russian stores, selling nothing but FSU products, in any city of any size in North America.   Some cities have more than one such store.  There is an entire area in Brighton Beach that is basically a "Little Odessa".  Russians all over the US, based on information from this site alone, hold V-Day parties, complete now with St. George's ribbons. 

Little Odessa, Little Russia and several other names it goes by is an area in south Brooklyn. Popular beach area in the summer. We go occasionally to do some shopping however with the influx of FSU people to greater NYC you can buy some of the Russian foods and other FSU ethnic foods in regular supermarkets and specialty stores in greater NYC.

Unfortunately over the last few years with the influx of Russians my wife and I have noticed more and more Russian mafia types. Last summer when we were in Brighton Beach our daughters noticed some well muscled and tattooed men sitting in an outdoor cafeteria. Because of the heat they were only wearing tank tops and many of their tats were visible. Wife whispered one word to me 'mafia'. Some places we just avoid because of them. According to our Russian friends there are more Russian mafia types in NYC now than ever before. Putin cracking down? Or it could simply be they're looking for illegitimate and legit business opportunities.

   
There are Russian language schools, if I go to any park on a weekend, there are Russians having parties with shashlik and (illegal) alcohol, speaking Russian.  I do go to church, though a Ukrainian church, and  it is full of Ukrainian immigrant families every week.  In fact, in some parts of my city, they outnumber locals.  I have no reason to believe the Russian Church (there are two in my city) are any less well attended.

So, I believe you are mistaken.

Russian language schools in NYC. Our kids went when younger but my wife didn't like some of the teachers and so she does most of the teaching at home. She's always speaking Russian with them and I even speak with them in Russian, especially when I don't want anyone else to know what I'm saying to them. We have all sorts of material. Buy some locally, get some sent from Russia and videos on the Internet. Our daughters don't seem to have many problems understanding other kids when we're in Russia.

When my wife first started working she worked as a tutor for math and physics. She put out an ad offering her services in English, Russian and German. We were both surprised by the number of requested she got for tutoring in Russian. Many Russians wanted their kids to have a better understanding of Russian and since they were learning the terminology in English in school they figured having the tutoring in Russian would help their kids understand Russian better.

We've been to parties at homes and on the local beaches and parks where most of the guests were FSU and booze, local and Russian was consumed illegally. IMO these parties seem far more subdued than the local Mexican version. Cinco de mayo in NYC is a big and noisy celebration.

Don't know about the Ukrainian and Russian churches in NYC. I'm sure they're well attended. 

Offline msmob

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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2018, 06:10:25 AM »
msmob is fathertime giving you lessons in finance? Over how long has the euro appreciated against the dollar? In December 2016 the euro was at a low of about 1.04 USD to 1 euro now it's about 1.17 USD to 1. So over about 18 months the euro has appreciated against the USD.

However if one takes a longer view say from March 2014 when the euro was at 1.39 USD to 1 euro, then the euro has depreciated against the USD. With currency exchange rates things change over time so it's necessary to state a time frame when discussing them.


I think YOU have been attending FT's school of bogus bollox.. ;)

I said "For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure"

The Euro hasn't been around THAT long - but seen a few crises ...It started at  1.16 in Jan 1999 and as we speak is 1.16 ... !!  It has recently fallen ( drastically )  thanks to the f'n stupid Italian voters ... but PRIOR to April 2016 and historically has spent more time ABOVE the launch base rate, YES ?

( Last month is was 1.25)

I am now stating a time frame

Naturally, It is noted that you didn't try to pick me up re the EUR-GBP...


msmob again you're not stating a time frame. Yes a few Poles have returned to Poland however since the UK was opened to the movement of Poles to the UK literally hundred of thousands of them have move to the UK. In fact Poles are one of the largest foreign born groups in the UK and the vast majority of them arrived since 2004 (about 94,000) when the UK people were told by their government that allowing Poles into the UK would only result in a few 10,000s arriving. In 2016 there were more than 900,000 Poles living in the UK. A ten times increase in population in 12 years. The overwhelming majority of Poles will remain in the UK and never return to Poland except for visits.

Whoops... Whilst it is true that Poles are still the highest EU 'foreigners' - and they have the right to live/ work here - they ARE leaving - because 'UK PLC' - post 'Brexit poll' has THE worst performing economy re recover - as opposed to the best before the vote

The ultimate irony is that Poles in Poland do not want any migrants from the EU or from Africa, the Middle East or elsewhere to move to Poland.

Fixed that for you.


Poland signed up to join the EU and that means freedom of movement for EU citizens - it simply cannot 'refuse' migrants from other nations in the EU

It should not be refusing the non EU 'refugees',either having signed up to a Directive - 'must do' - to share the load and it will end up being fined - along with Hungary and Austria


Offline msmob

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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2018, 07:43:03 AM »
Thousands of Mexicans return home too after making their money in America. Doesn't mean life is better in Mexico. You're right many Poles still are going to the UK than return home. Link below shows nations coming and going. Enlarge the world map to see European migration 2010-15.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/

BillyB

Neither Dave or you are correct  :deadhorse:


HINT:  Since the 'Brexit vote' the GBP has fallen in value against the Polish currency and many more Poles are LEAVING - as opposed to 'arriving'


Try searching "Poles leaving UK"

Loath as I am to quote from a 'Brexit supporting comic' ..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/

See what happens when you REALLY don't know stuff and quote old  data from the net ?




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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2018, 07:45:51 AM »
I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?



Offline BillyB

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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2018, 08:03:14 AM »
BillyB

Neither Dave or you are correct  :deadhorse:


HINT:  Since the 'Brexit vote' the GBP has fallen in value against the Polish currency and many more Poles are LEAVING - as opposed to 'arriving'


Try searching "Poles leaving UK"

Loath as I am to quote from a 'Brexit supporting comic' ..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago/

See what happens when you REALLY don't know stuff and quote old  data from the net ?


Read the article you supplied carefully. The Polish Deputy Prim Minister said “We are creating lots of new jobs for people with experience of working in Britain. Polish are starting to realise that there are exciting opportunities waiting for them back home.”

Nowhere does it say Brexit is the catalyst for Poles to return home. They are saying they are providing a better environment for their citizens to return home. You're so anti Brexit it clouds your reading ability since you want everything to be Brexit's fault.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2018, 08:42:29 AM »
I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?

krimster2 when Polish citizens were allowed to move about the EU the average Brit knew that lots of Poles would move to the UK. It made sense. Poles could earn lots more in the UK and benefits available were very good compared to what they received back in Poland.

The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

msmob keeps repeating how Poles are leaving the UK for Poland. That's true a few thousand are returning to Poland. Lots of articles about it but few if any of the articles mention how many. By no stretch of the imagination are 800,000 Poles going to return to Poland. At best 25,000 or 30,000, 50,000 at most IMO. We'll know in a few years when new immigration numbers come out.

Offline msmob

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« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2018, 09:03:36 AM »

Read the article you supplied carefully. The Polish Deputy Prim Minister said “We are creating lots of new jobs for people with experience of working in Britain. Polish are starting to realise that there are exciting opportunities waiting for them back home.”

Nowhere does it say Brexit is the catalyst for Poles to return home. They are saying they are providing a better environment for their citizens to return home. You're so anti Brexit it clouds your reading ability since you want everything to be Brexit's fault.

BillyB



1/ So you don't deny you were wrong to quote old data ?

2/ I DID say this was from a 'Brexit supporting comic' AND to search "Poles leaving the UK"

There you WILL find Poles speaking of 'Brexit's negativity

Really, WHY DO you try to deflect when you've posted daft   ( once more) - been busted - and offer up some lame diversionary 'red herring' - rather than admitting you were just plain WRONG in our contention


Offline BillyB

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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2018, 09:10:25 AM »
There you WILL find Poles speaking of 'Brexit's negativity





So you take an article written by an anti Brexit journalist who interviewed a few anti Brexit Poles and submit it here as proof that the economic situation in the UK is dire due to Brexit. Let's stick with facts, not opinions. The sky is not falling in the UK due to Brexit.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Online krimster2

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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2018, 09:19:44 AM »
"The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK. "

thank you!
I had no idea!!

interesting comparison between that and the major 1965 US immigration law changes which under-counted future immigration from non-European countries because it did not account for family chaining in its predicted totals, similar kind of numeric underestimation, maybe deliberate? or accidental?



 

 

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