Second Meeting - Vacation - Something Rotten In Denmark / Nikolaev...?

[Infoman]

Hi, Everyone...


Been a long time since I've been here.  I had a situation that's bugging me because my spidey sense is throwing up red flags, and I want to confirm this with you seasoned, very knowledgeable people in this realm.


I'll try to make a long story short...a number of months ago, I met Natalia (Nikolaev) face to face in her home town.  Seemingly perfect for 44 - very sweet, kind, considerate, fit, etc.  We talked for 2 1/2 hours with the help of an interpreter (that part was all on the level), and we've been communicating for 4-5 months now.  Skype / video hasn't taken place yet...not sure what the reason for this is.  She has a 16-year-old son that I haven't met yet but I hear all about from conversations with Natalia.


In talking to Natalia, we really wanted to meet somewhere for a well-deserved vacation for both of us - about a week or so.  Right off the bat, I don't know if that's really the proper thing to do after only 2 1/2 hours face to face and 4-5 months of emails and photos.  That being said, I'm TRYING to have an open mind, because I really like Natalia.  Trouble is that I don't know how the 16-year-old son will fit into the scheme of things - for me - so you might wonder why I'm even still pursuing this lady.  To be honest, I have an open mind and thought that when I meet him ON THE VACATION WITH NATALIA - yes, that's true - I would get a feeling one way or the other as far as if this could potentially work or not.  We were first talking about Phuket, Thailand - reasonable hotel rates, but much too long of a flight for me and them...then we turned to Europe...actually. we decided on Nice, France ONE DAY BEFORE the attack there...and then, she mentioned Dominican Republic / Punta Cana, which I thought would work well, as least for me - yes, even in light of the Zika warning.


Here's the thing, and I will know for sure within the next two days...I'm willing to take on paying for separate rooms for the week-long stay (all-inclusive at a decent place (plus my airfare) would run me about $3,400 total) - but I have a gut feeling that Natalia is assuming that I will cover everything, including THEIR airfares.  Let's put it this way...their airfares along will be more than the aforementioned $3,400, and, ummm...I'm sorry, but if that's the case, no way in hell am I going to spend 9k to spend a week with this lady and her son who I never met considering we really haven't spend any time together in person, save for the 2 1/2 hours back in May.  Again, spidey sense is telling me that she may be looking for a sugar daddy to give her and her son a great vacation.  Of course, I could be wrong - I hope I'm wrong - but common sense is telling me otherwise because I'm thinking with the RIGHT head.


Bottom line - I really would hate to miss out on something that can have lasting potential, but with everything mentioned, assuming Natalia comes back to me with a "here's the bill from my travel agency" or similar, I think I need to cut the rope, so to speak.  And that's a whole other story.  How would I do that gracefully if - as she claims - she's already slotted out the specific days we discussed with her work / office?  Or would it be okay, under the circumstances and little time known, to end it "non-gracefully", whatever that might entail?  Again, this is all based on what I hear back in the next day or two, but I can also guarantee that she will expect me to pay for the entire 9 yards.  If we were married or in the process of, entirely different ball game.  As it is, I don't have Trump's money, and there will not be 9k spend on this type of "meeting / vacation".


Thoughts?  Comments?


Thanks!


Andy

[LAman]

Andy, your not thinking at all.....little head, big head, any head.

You are in no position to have any vacation with this lady. You don't know her. You know very little. This is problem with getting into a relationship where you don't speak/communicate on same level( ie: lady speaks no English).

BTW- you are a cheapskate if you thought of vacationing in Punta Cana and expect the lady to front her airfare bill for 2. Maybe you just should have suggested vacationing in Odesa..... that way your spidy-senses would not have appeared and her front of that travel bill would have been under $20.

Sorry to be so blunt, it is just what MY spidy-senses were detecting.

BTW- I did meet up with a girl on a DM trip- but it was in neighborhood of$3900 ( 2 people)

[2tallbill]

Hi, Everyone...

Been a long time since I've been here.  I had a situation that's bugging me because my spidey sense is throwing up red flags, and I want to confirm this with you seasoned, very knowledgeable people in this realm.

I'll try to make a long story short...a number of months ago, I met Natalia (Nikolaev) face to face in her home town.  Seemingly perfect for 44 - very sweet, kind, considerate, fit, etc.  We talked for 2 1/2 hours with the help of an interpreter (that part was all on the level), and we've been communicating for 4-5 months now.  Skype / video hasn't taken place yet...not sure what the reason for this is.  She has a 16-year-old son that I haven't met yet but I hear all about from conversations with Natalia.

In talking to Natalia, we really wanted to meet somewhere for a well-deserved vacation for both of us - about a week or so.  Right off the bat, I don't know if that's really the proper thing to do after only 2 1/2 hours face to face and 4-5 months of emails and photos.  That being said, I'm TRYING to have an open mind, because I really like Natalia.  Trouble is that I don't know how the 16-year-old son will fit into the scheme of things - for me - so you might wonder why I'm even still pursuing this lady.  To be honest, I have an open mind and thought that when I meet him ON THE VACATION WITH NATALIA - yes, that's true - I would get a feeling one way or the other as far as if this could potentially work or not.  We were first talking about Phuket, Thailand - reasonable hotel rates, but much too long of a flight for me and them...then we turned to Europe...actually. we decided on Nice, France ONE DAY BEFORE the attack there...and then, she mentioned Dominican Republic / Punta Cana, which I thought would work well, as least for me - yes, even in light of the Zika warning.


Here's the thing, and I will know for sure within the next two days...I'm willing to take on paying for separate rooms for the week-long stay (all-inclusive at a decent place (plus my airfare) would run me about $3,400 total) - but I have a gut feeling that Natalia is assuming that I will cover everything, including THEIR airfares.  Let's put it this way...their airfares along will be more than the aforementioned $3,400, and, ummm...I'm sorry, but if that's the case, no way in hell am I going to spend 9k to spend a week with this lady and her son who I never met considering we really haven't spend any time together in person, save for the 2 1/2 hours back in May.  Again, spidey sense is telling me that she may be looking for a sugar daddy to give her and her son a great vacation.  Of course, I could be wrong - I hope I'm wrong - but common sense is telling me otherwise because I'm thinking with the RIGHT head.


Bottom line - I really would hate to miss out on something that can have lasting potential, but with everything mentioned, assuming Natalia comes back to me with a "here's the bill from my travel agency" or similar, I think I need to cut the rope, so to speak.  And that's a whole other story.  How would I do that gracefully if - as she claims - she's already slotted out the specific days we discussed with her work / office?  Or would it be okay, under the circumstances and little time known, to end it "non-gracefully", whatever that might entail?  Again, this is all based on what I hear back in the next day or two, but I can also guarantee that she will expect me to pay for the entire 9 yards.  If we were married or in the process of, entirely different ball game.  As it is, I don't have Trump's money, and there will not be 9k spend on this type of "meeting / vacation".

Thoughts?  Comments?

Thanks!

Andy

Andy, in my opinion you are skipping steps. You are on step 11 when you should be
on step 3 or 4. You should be talking to her on Skype every day so I would recommend correcting that immediately.

Next you need to go see her in her country. You only have 2 1/2 hours of face time
and you need ten times that before you start taking family type vacations. You aren't
ready for the meet the 16 year old son yet phase. That's a couple of steps down the
road in my opinion.

So my advice is to plan a ten day trip and get the face time that you need to romance
her and win her heart. Then you need to meet her son, maybe for pizza or something.
After you have a relationship built then you can start planning family type vacations
already knowing who will be sleeping in which beds.

Udachi!

Bill

[BillyB]

I wouldn't have allowed myself to be where you're at. You've communicated with this woman 4-5 months and you're worried she may be looking for a sugar daddy. You should have never allowed the conversation with her lead to a vacation in a neutral spot. You need to be in control and suggest to meet her at her home until you can establish trust and a relationship. Unless you want to be an international playboy, save the romantic trips for a girlfriend, fiancée, or wife. Not too late to suggest meeting her back at her place. If she's not comfortable with you meeting her son, she's not comfortable with you.

[Boethius]

How would you expect a woman who lives in a country with an average monthly wage of US$250 to spring for tickets to the Dominican Republic?

[Infoman]

Thanks guys, for the great advice.  Points well taken . LAMan - blunt, but I get it.  I'm not a cheapskate by any stretch.  It's apparent that I didn't control this from the get-go and do the right things to begin with.  Now, I need to correct all of this.  You're right - I shouldn't have allowed things to get to this point.  For the record, I did first suggest that we meet in Kiev (or some other city in Ukraine), and she said that Kiev was much too busy and "not relaxing".  If there's any point to what we could have, I definitely need to heed your advice and meet her for a good period of time locally - AND meet the son - AND do Skype a number of times before I can even consider such a brainless move as I was.  Meeting locally...romance and try to win her heart....get a sense of real feelings, emotions, and long-term potential....meet the son....Skype...all first before ANYTHING else.  And she does want me to meet her son, so that's not an issue.  I'm sure this will disappoint her, but if she can't understand where I'm coming from on this, then she's not the one for me anyhow. 


And I can't expect this, Boethius.  You're right, too.  Live and learn.  A getaway like this is reserved for a solid relationship, MANY MANY steps beyond where I am currently.


Thanks for the wake-up call, guys.  I needed that - big time.


Andy

[Trenchcoat]

Hi, Everyone...


Been a long time since I've been here.  I had a situation that's bugging me because my spidey sense is throwing up red flags, and I want to confirm this with you seasoned, very knowledgeable people in this realm.

In talking to Natalia, we really wanted to meet somewhere for a well-deserved vacation for both of us

Here's the thing, and I will know for sure within the next two days...I'm willing to take on paying for separate rooms for the week-long stay (all-inclusive at a decent place (plus my airfare) would run me about $3,400 total) - but I have a gut feeling that Natalia is assuming that I will cover everything, including THEIR airfares.  Let's put it this way...their airfares along will be more than the aforementioned $3,400, and, ummm...I'm sorry, but if that's the case, no way in hell am I going to spend 9k to spend a week with this lady and her son who I never met considering we really haven't spend any time together in person, save for the 2 1/2 hours back in May.  Again, spidey sense is telling me that she may be looking for a sugar daddy to give her and her son a great vacation.  Of course, I could be wrong - I hope I'm wrong - but common sense is telling me otherwise because I'm thinking with the RIGHT head.

Andy

Yes, she is highly likely to expect you to pay for the airfares for both of them, that $4.3k or whatever it will be is a vast amount of money to most Ukrainians, particularly to be spent on a holiday. You are no doubt taking her somewhere she could only dream about going at that price, and guess what? Its all on the account of a stranger, someone who she has just met on a brief visit for a couple of hours or so - not bad going is it! From what I have seen women looking for holidays abroad from Western Men is the new big Scam in the Ukraine at the moment - its an easy freebie for the women, they can more easily talk a man into meeting with them abroad as they know asking for money will get them short shrift - that can be done at the end, or allured too.

Odds are she has been all too eager to talk foreign destinations with you, the girl I met in Kiev was later like that, I made it clear this was not going to happen and things dried up after that, her replies became more distant and I knew it was time to move on with experience learned. I had met her for several days in Kiev, yet I would not contemplate a trip abroad for her as no affection was present, a nice girl, good company, but I need to know a girl is into me before I go to anything like that. Your lady, you have not have sex with right? since you only met her for 2.5 hours, possibly she might have shown affection but many women can turn it on for that time. I think your personally crazy to even consider it, back out now, use whatever excuse you have to before you are caught on the ropes and committed to this with non-refundable airfares paid. Take out any real worthwhile freebie or money incentive out of the relationship, that's the only way you'll know if she is in the slightest way decent. Sure someone a lot younger will have a degree of reason there why she wants an older man, but at 44 her time has past in the Ukraine and few men there will consider her anyway at that age, so don't become an easy ATM for her.

[Infoman]

Thanks, Trenchcoat.  Well said, and again, points well taken.  Yes, I was crazy - but you all have woken me up to reality.  Nothing had been booked, so there's nothing lost except for time.  I'm going to explain how it is - nicely - to Natalia, and either she will understand (and want to meet locally for an extended stay) or she won't.  One way or another, I'm know how to proceed - or not - depending on her response.  I feel silly and stupid now...have no idea what I was thinking, or lack thereof.


Andy

[LAman]

Thanks guys, for the great advice.  Points well taken . LAMan - blunt, but I get it.  I'm not a cheapskate by any stretch.  It's apparent that I didn't control this from the get-go and do the right things to begin with.  Now, I need to correct all of this.  You're right - I shouldn't have allowed things to get to this point.  For the record, I did first suggest that we meet in Kiev (or some other city in Ukraine), and she said that Kiev was much too busy and "not relaxing".  If there's any point to what we could have, I definitely need to heed your advice and meet her for a good period of time locally - AND meet the son - AND do Skype a number of times before I can even consider such a brainless move as I was.  Meeting locally...romance and try to win her heart....get a sense of real feelings, emotions, and long-term potential....meet the son....Skype...all first before ANYTHING else.  And she does want me to meet her son, so that's not an issue.  I'm sure this will disappoint her, but if she can't understand where I'm coming from on this, then she's not the one for me anyhow. 


And I can't expect this, Boethius.  You're right, too.  Live and learn.  A getaway like this is reserved for a solid relationship, MANY MANY steps beyond where I am currently.


Thanks for the wake-up call, guys.  I needed that - big time.


Andy

Don't know when you were planning the vacation but if it is before mid-Sept, you could be relaxing at beaches in Odesa, with a semi-vacation and alone time. You will need an interpreter though. 2 rooms there would not be very expensive. Your call. This could be one out for you to consider.

[Trenchcoat]

Thanks, Trenchcoat.  Well said, and again, points well taken.  Yes, I was crazy - but you all have woken me up to reality.  Nothing had been booked, so there's nothing lost except for time.  I'm going to explain how it is - nicely - to Natalia, and either she will understand (and want to meet locally for an extended stay) or she won't.  One way or another, I'm know how to proceed - or not - depending on her response.  I feel silly and stupid now...have no idea what I was thinking, or lack thereof.


Andy

That's ok Andy its easily done, it wasn't until I had decided on Kiev and decided on/booked flight/hotel that the girl I was to meet asked me to pay for a room for her, then the train. Its was not a big cost because of the good exchange rate so I didn't mind that much and didn't understand how poor many Ukrainians were out there at the time, but I was kind of committed at that point if not in bookings than in my stated commitment to meet her - which I would only have backed out of if a load of money was on the line as in your case or credibly suspected I was being duped in some way. It would have left me with egg on my face of course so its something I would not do unless like I say I suspected foul play. I think in your case you could consider any reasonable excuse to back out - the truth might get her back up. In any case see how she reacts if she buggers off then that was all she was after and experience learned move on to better women. I think many women after such exotic holidays abroad tend to bring it up as much as they can and however subtle they can, you did well though in suspecting that she expected you to pay for airfares, etc as surely was the case.

[Boethius]

I highly doubt this woman was looking to scam the OP with a vacation which he proposed.

If you want a vacation environment, go to Odesa.  Pay their expenses.  Book one apartment for all of you, with separate bedrooms for each of you.  It will still be a nice vacation for all of you, and by being in one apartment, you will spend a significant amount of time with her.  Just don't make it long (7-10 days), in case things don't work out.

[ML]

I feel silly and stupid now...have no idea what I was thinking, or lack thereof.


Andy

And there you have it.

[Infoman]

LAMan...we were talking about late August, so yes, Odessa and Black Sea would be a great option, I think.  The way I figure it - if she's truly interested in ME, then she will almost certainly consider Odessa or similar (since location really shouldn't matter at this point).  If not, then I know where things really stand.

Trenchcoat - I really appreciate the words. Just knowing that you guys understand and are so helpful means everything to me.


Boethius - yes, LAMAN thought Odessa was a good option, too.  And I would happily pay the expenses.  And a 2 or 3-bedroom apartment seems like a great idea. ANOTHER great idea - not making it too long, just in case things don't work out.  On that topic, how do you balance that kind of thing by not making a visit too short or too long?  Too short and things are going great - not good.  Vice-versa - not good, either.

Andy

[ML]

  On that topic, how do you balance that kind of thing by not making a visit too short or too long?  Too short and things are going great - not good.  Vice-versa - not good, either.

Andy

Do a WMVM.  Solves most of your problems.

[calmissile]

Infoman,

I'll try to keep this brief.  My wife and I went through the process and some thoughts follow.  To review the details, see my trip reports.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15123.0
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18377.0

There are many ways to approach the dating/courting mission.  Some work and some don't.  Since people are different with different personalities some approaches work for some and not others.  I would not consider there is a mold that fits all.

The approach that worked for me (twice), was to mellow out and not make any grandiose plans.  It was my approach to spend as much time together in a family, natural environment.  There are a couple of reasons for choosing this approach.  One, I did not want to spend a lot of money on someone I did not know or know if we were compatible.  Second, I did not want to fall into a scam that involved someone wanting a vacation at my expense that was not serious about a relationship.

In the first case, I stayed at her home and interacted with the rest of the family including her children and her mother.  We did things together and got to know and evaluate each others personalities.  As it turned out, our personalities did not mesh well enough to create a successful marriage, nevertheless, it was a wonderful experience in life being in a different culture.

In the second case, I initially stayed in an apartment in Kiev and we had some casual meetings with hours of discussion with an electronic interpreter.  Our personalities meshed well.  After several visits to my apartment, she brought her daughter which turned out to be a wonderful child.  I got to see how she parented her child and learned a lot about her family and her history.  After making a WMVM trip around Ukraine I returned to Kiev to depart for home.  Larissa was always on my mind through the whole trip.   Upon arriving back in Kiev, Larissa was adamant that she wanted to see me before I left.  This to me was a signal that she was truly interested in me. 

She proposed that we take a train to Crimea and spend a few days in Simferople.   She was very thrifty, which impressed me.  Not a gold digger.  I rescheduled my departure for home by about a week and agreed to the trip to Crimea.   Larissa negotiated a fantastic price for a very nice apartment and went to a lot of trouble to obtain the train tickets when they were not readily available.   I was impressed.  We slept in separate bunks on the train and her daughter had her own bunk as well.  To keep the story short, during this vacation I fell in love with both Larissa and her daughter.

Having the benefit of spending time together before lurching off on a trip, was important for me and probably my wife also.  I did not meet her mother until the day we left for the trip.  It was all downhill after that.  I was not allowed to stay in the apartment with mother and Larissa until after we returned from the vacation and Larissa had to lay down the law to mama for me to stay overnight.   

My recommendation is to spend family time together, visit the sites in the area and get to know each other and your personalities before making any bigger plans.

Good luck!

[LAman]

Boethius - yes, LAMAN thought Odessa was a good option, too.  And I would happily pay the expenses.  And a 2 or 3-bedroom apartment seems like a great idea. ANOTHER great idea - not making it too long, just in case things don't work out.  On that topic, how do you balance that kind of thing by not making a visit too short or too long?  Too short and things are going great - not good.  Vice-versa - not good, either.

Andy

I think Bo meant your vacation in Odesa, I would think 5-6 days is plenty. Then back to Nikolaev for remainder of trip if things are well. Would be nice if your flights started and ended in Odesa. Arkadia usually ends end of August so less people around that area.

[BillyB]

Thanks for the wake-up call, guys.  I needed that - big time.

When you  tell her the vacation if off, she may get upset but if she got the hots for you and sees you as her future husband, she'll meet you anywhere you want.

[Trenchcoat]

I highly doubt this woman was looking to scam the OP with a vacation which he proposed.

If you want a vacation environment, go to Odesa.  Pay their expenses.  Book one apartment for all of you, with separate bedrooms for each of you.  It will still be a nice vacation for all of you, and by being in one apartment, you will spend a significant amount of time with her.  Just don't make it long (7-10 days), in case things don't work out.

He might of, but some women are all too ready to take advantage, particularly if they were hoping for a vacation in home country and got a lot more, some women play many men and see what comes up.

Second point is decent idea, OP I spent 4 full days with girl in Kiev, if it had not worked out, i.e she had not shown up, been nice, tried scamming, dispute, then I could have still got through it without thinking, 'hell I've got the rest of the ...so long to get through and I really only came to meet her in this city I don't know' Add of course a couple of days for flights and at least one rest day - after flight is almost essential, particularly from US. Odessa has the advantage of a beach so there is always relaxing to do, Kiev is more difficult to relax, nice enough but I don't think I would have fancied too long there alone.

Added to that, four days was about right for me, 5 and without affection it would have started to really rub thin. 3 Days is probably ok as well but I think much less than that would really start to be counter productive.

[ML]

. . . if she got the hots for you and sees you as her future husband, she'll meet you anywhere you want.

There is a McDonald's on Khreshchatyk near Metro and another at northwest end of Maidan Nezalezhnosti.

Or, if you want to go upscale, there are several Puzata Hata's scattered around Kyiv.

[dragonkid]

After making a WMVM trip around Ukraine I returned to Kiev to depart for home.  Larissa was always on my mind through the whole trip.   Upon arriving back in Kiev, Larissa was adamant that she wanted to see me before I left.  This to me was a signal that she was truly interested in me. 

Only thing that was adamant is that she had no self respect. If i did that to majority of women, i would get blown away. You guys wonder why hot women won't give you time of day, that is because you treat them like meat, and in return you get 10 cents on the buck.

[Boethius]

You are far too focused on women scammers, Trenchcoat.  I suspect it colours your communications with women, and until you lose that attitude, you will not be successful.

We can't know what was in the woman's mind, but if a man suggests why don't you bring your son to Nice/Prague/Warsaw for a vacation, should she just say no, and lose the chance of meeting the man?  Yes, the OP jumped the gun, but a neutral city is not a bad idea.  I certainly wouldn't want to go to Ukraine and spend a week in Nikolaev.

[Trenchcoat]

There is a McDonald's on Khreshchatyk near Metro and another at northwest end of Maidan Nezalezhnosti.

Or, if you want to go upscale, there are several Puzata Hata's scattered around Kyiv.

Hope she won't be disappointed going from the prospect of the Caribbean down to McDonald's.

[Trenchcoat]

You are far too focused on women scammers, Trenchcoat.  I suspect it colours your communications with women, and until you lose that attitude, you will not be successful.

We can't know what was in the woman's mind, but if a man suggests why don't you bring your son to Nice/Prague/Warsaw for a vacation, should she just say no, and lose the chance of meeting the man?  Yes, the OP jumped the gun, but a neutral city is not a bad idea.  I certainly wouldn't want to go to Ukraine and spend a week in Nikolaev.

Why not Nikolaev?

[ML]

Why not Nikolaev?

Because it no longer exists.

There is, however, a nearby town named Mykolaiv.

[BillyB]

There is a McDonald's on Khreshchatyk near Metro and another at northwest end of Maidan Nezalezhnosti.

Those two McDonalds are the two places in the FSU I met women the most for a date. I would tell them I'm located in the center of Kiev and ask them to meet me at one of those two McDonalds. Nobody turned me down. I didn't say we were or weren't going to eat there but after meeting I would suggest another place or ask them if they knew a place to eat.