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Author Topic: LANGUAGE !  (Read 35627 times)

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Offline 55North

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2009, 10:52:44 PM »
Olga, NO self-respecting Scot would say he's going to wear a skirt :naughty:, he wears a KILT.Etymology seems to favour shirt, rather than skirt, as a possible origin of the word ;).


It's not about whether a Scot is self-respecting,or not.  To merely discuss this matter in such a manner, and using the S-word, is to invite DEATH from any (genuine) SCOT. 

(I have to say this, living only 40 minutes from the border with Scotland.)   :-[

Offline SANDRO43

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URBAN TOPONOMASTICS (1)
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2009, 12:54:40 PM »
Another interesting subject is how the various categories of public city spaces are designated in different cities and countries.

For instance, here in Italy we basically use: Via (street), Viale (wide street, usually tree-lined), Corso (avenue, major/important street), Vicolo (alley, short/narrow street), Portico or Galleria (arcaded street), Piazza (square), Largo (major/important square or street).

However, in a unique city like Venice, viali and corsi are actually waterways, and called Rio (river) and Canal, respectively. On solid ground, a Via is Calle (as in Spanish) or Riva (shore, a street bordering a waterway), a Piazza is small (except for "San Marco") and called Campo (literally, "field"), and a tiny Piazza is Campiello. And Portego and Sotoportego for arcaded Calli.

London is where I found the highest variety of denominations, with terms like: Street, Road, Way, Avenue, Close, Arcade, Garden(s), Mews, Walk, Grove, Row, Lane, Terrace, Square, Crescent, Circus, etc.

IINM, in the FSU they use Ulitsa, Prospekt, Chausse, Ploshchad. Any other terms?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 07:32:01 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: URBAN TOPONOMASTICS (1)
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2009, 01:26:35 PM »

IINM, in the FSU they use Ulitsa, Prospekt, Chausse, Ploshchad. Any other terms?


Pereulok, Bul'var...

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: URBAN TOPONOMASTICS (1)
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2009, 01:29:12 PM »
Pereulok, Bul'var...
Bul'var I can understand, from French like Chosse. What would Pereulok correspond to?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 01:30:45 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2009, 01:40:00 PM »
Bul'var I can understand, from French like Chosse. What would Pereulok correspond to?

Pereulok is alleyway or side street

Example of a Bul'var in Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrovsky_Boulevard

Shosse (Chausse) -  http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5&btnG=Search+Images

Offline OlgaH

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Offline SANDRO43

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FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2009, 12:53:12 PM »
Every language and culture has it own ways to express friendliness/intimacy/confidentiality vs. obsequy/formality/respect when addressing people. I'll jot down a few considerations and examples that come to my mind, to start a discussion.

LANGUAGE ASPECTS
Most frequently, the two different forms of address are expressed by using:
- the 2nd person singular pronoun with friends/intimates
- the 2nd person plural pronoun with strangers

German, however, uses for formality Sie, the 3rd person plural pronoun, and Spanish has a specific additional 3rd person singular pronoun (Usted).

In Italian, Voi (2nd person plural pronoun) was used mostly in the Center-South, and Lei (3nd person singular feminine pronoun :o) in parts of the North. Fascism frowned on this latter unmanly form of address and outlawed it as unpatriotic, curiously enough since the equivalent of Voi was used by our 'enemies' (You, Vous) and that of Lei was closer to the forms of our 'allies' (Sie, Usted) :D. After WWII, Lei resurged and spread to most of Italy.

Japanese has 3 verbal modes (normal, polite, obsequious).

The fact that English lost its 2nd person singular pronoun (Thou) in the XVIIth century creates some problems of ambiguity: "Hey, YOU!" will cause several heads to turn, not just one :D.

CULTURAL ASPECTS
Regardless of the means made available by language, additional nuances in address are available to show respect, usually in the form of honourifics, i.e. prefixed titles.

The equivalents of Mr., Mrs., Miss are available almost everywhere.

Arabic uses Sayyid/Sayyida AND the 2nd person singular pronoun to address anybody (very democratic).

In Spain a Hernàn Cortés can be: Señor Cortés, Don Hernàn AND Señor Don Hernàn Cortés, depending on the degree of formality.

In Italy, academic titles are a must in formality and are often used alone: Avvocato, Ingegnere, Dottore (not limited to MDs, anybody with a 4-year university degree in whatever discipline is entitled to it, myself included :)). When I go to my usual restaurant after choir practice, carrying my scores along, I'm addressed by the owner and staff as Maestro (reserved to Conservatory graduates), which tickles me no end :D

« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 03:00:07 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2009, 03:34:26 PM »
Every language and culture has it own ways to express friendliness/intimacy/confidentiality vs. obsequy/formality/respect when addressing people.


Till the Red Revolution Russians the popular respectful forms of address to an unfamiliar person were sudar' (to a man) and sudarynya (to a woman). Sudar (сударь) and sudarynya (сударыня) are formed from "gusudar' and gosudarynya". A respectful form of address to an unmarried young woman was baryshnya барышня.     

All official letters and also even some unofficial (privet) usually were started with "milostivy gosudar' Dear sir ( (or milostivaya gosudarynya - Dear madam) + first and middle name.  The official forms of address to a person of high estate also were gospodin  господин (to a man) gospozha госпожа (to a woman) + full name (or just last name) and the plural form - gospoda and damy - господа и дамы.

After the revolution people started to use the word tovarisch товарищ (comrade) as form of address to men and women as well, and also grazhdanin гражданин (to men) and grazhdanka гражданка (to women). "Grazhdanin" and "grazhdanka" usually were used by militia, and they use that form of address nowadays.   

 :)
[youtube=425,350]FE506qXF7Cg&feature=related [/youtube]
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 04:57:33 PM by OlgaH »

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2009, 05:24:40 PM »
Till the Red Revolution Russians the popular respectful forms of address to an unfamiliar person were sudar' (to a man) and sudarynya (to a woman). Sudar (сударь) and sudarynya (сударыня) are formed from "gusudar' and gosudarynya". A respectful form of address to an unmarried young woman was baryshnya барышня.
Which would be the old equivalents of Mr., Mrs. and Miss?     
Quote
The official forms of address to a person of high estate also were gospodin  господин (to a man) gospozha госпожа (to a woman) + full name (or just last name)
Which sound as the equivalents of Sir and Madam.
Quote
After the revolution people started to use the word tovarisch товарищ (comrade) as form of address to men and women as well, and also grazhdanin гражданин (to men) and grazhdanka гражданка (to women). "Grazhdanin" and "grazhdanka" usually were used by militia, and they use that form of address nowadays.
Meaning citizen, INM. Like the French Revolution citoyen and citoyenne ;).

The use of name+patronymic in your clip seems midway between formal and informal.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:27:08 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2009, 06:36:04 PM »
Which would be the old equivalents of Mr., Mrs. and Miss?     

Almost correct  :)  Mr.- sudar', gosudar', Mrs - sudarynya, Miss - baryshnya or also sudarynya.


Quote
Which sound as the equivalents of Sir and Madam.

Yes.


Quote
Meaning citizen, INM. Like the French Revolution citoyen and citoyenne ;).

You know... French fashion about everything  ;D

Quote
The use of name+patronymic in your clip seems midway between formal and informal.

In the clip name+patronymic is used in formal situation and informal situation (a dinner). If you notised the professor Fillip Fillipovich addressing to the Doctor Ivan Arnoldovich uses also the word "golubchik" that is an equivalent (or synonym) of "dorogoi" - dear. For a woman it would be golubushka (dorogaya, milaya)

Very often in Russian aristocratic families even the spouses call each other using a name with patronymic as demonstration of respect and also "coldness" depends on a tone of voice.   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 06:37:39 PM by OlgaH »

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2009, 07:44:06 PM »
Very often in Russian aristocratic families even the spouses call each other using a name with patronymic as demonstration of respect and also "coldness" depends on a tone of voice. 
That's why I was citing Tolstoy before. I don't remember when Pierre and Natasha stop using patronymics when addressing each other in War and Peace, I read it too long ago.

OK, let me turn the question around. When is it proper form to use the first name only? Colleagues, acquaintances, friends, relatives, lovers?
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2009, 08:13:05 PM »

OK, let me turn the question around. When is it proper form to use the first name only? Colleagues, acquaintances, friends, relatives, lovers?

I think it all depends on a situation. For example my friends and relatives addressing to me use only Olga, but some of my friends also were my colleagues, and at work we used a name with patronymic. It is simply the office ethics. At official acquaintance I think it is more polite to use a name with patronymic, in circle of friends and relatives it is normal to use just a name and between lovers and spouses as well.   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 08:15:15 PM by OlgaH »

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2009, 09:05:42 PM »
This is something I got in email today that quasi fits with the thread:

 You think English is easy?


                       1) The bandage was wound around the wound.

                       2) The farm was used to produce produce .

                       3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more
                       refuse.

                       4) We must polish the Polish furniture.

                       5) He could lead if he would get the lead out..

                       6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the
                       desert.

                       7) Since there is no time like the present, he
                       thought it was time to present the present

                       8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.

                       9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.

                       10) I did not object to the object.

                       11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.

                       12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to
                       row ...

                       13) They were too close to the door to close it.

                       14) The buck does funny things when the does are
                       present.

                       15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer
                       line.

                       16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his
                       sow to sow.

                       17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

                       18) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a
                       tear.

                       19) I had to subject the subject to a series of
                       tests.
                       20) How can I intimate this to my most intimate
                       friend?


Online Faux Pas

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2009, 09:10:40 PM »
Wait, there's more!

 Let's face it - English is a crazy language.

                       There is no egg in eggplant, nor ham in hamburger;
                       neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English
                       muffins weren't invented in England or French fries
                       in France. Sweetmeats are candies while
                       sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We take
                       English for granted.
                       But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that
                       quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square
                       and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a
                       pig.

                       And why is it that writers write but fingers don't
                       fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If
                       the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural
                       of booth, beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose,
                       2 meese? One index, 2 indices? Doesn't it seem
                       crazy that you can make amends but not one amend?
                       If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of
                       all but one of them, what do you call it?

                       If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
                       If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a
                       humanitarian eat? Sometimes I think all the English
                       speakers should be committed to an asylum for the
                       verbally insane. In what language do people recite
                       at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and
                       send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet
                       that smell?

                       How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same,
                       while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You
                       have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language
                       in which your house can burn up as it burns down,
                       in which you fill in a form by filling it out and
                       in which, an alarm goes off by going on.

                       English was invented by people, not computers, and
                       it reflects the creativity of the human race,
                       which, of course, is not a race at all. That is
                       why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but
                       when the lights are out, they are invisible..

                       PS. - Why doesn't 'Buick' rhyme with 'quick' ?

                       You lovers of the English language might enjoy this
                       .

                       There is a two-letter word that perhaps has more
                       meanings than any other two-letter word, and that
                       is 'UP.'

                       It's easy to understand UP, meaning toward the sky
                       or at the top of the list, but when we awaken in
                       the morning, why do we wake UP ? At a meeting, why
                       does a topic come UP ? Why do we speak UP and why
                       are the officers UP for election and why is UP to
                       the secretary to write UP a report ?

                       We call UP our friends. And we use it to brighten
                       UP a room, polish UP the silver; we warm UPthe
                       leftovers and clean UP the kitchen.
                       We lock UP the house and some guys fix UP the old
                       car.

                       At other times the little word has real special
                       meaning.. People stir  UP
                       trouble, line UP for tickets, work UP an appetite,
                       and think UP excuses. To be dressed is one thing,
                       but to be dressed UP is special.

                       And this UP is confusing: A drain must be opened UP
                       because it is stoppedUP. We open UP a store in the
                       morning but we close it UP at night.

                       We seem to be pretty mixed UP about UP !
                       To be knowledgeable about the proper uses of
                       UP, look the word UP in the dictionary. In a
                       desk-sized dictionary, it takes  UP  almost 1/4th
                       of the page and can add UP to about thirty
                       definitions. If you are UP to it, you might try
                       building UP a list of the many ways UP is used.
                       It will take UP a lot of your time, but if you
                       don't give UP,you may wind UP with a
                       hundred or more. When it threatens to rain,
                       we say it is clouding UP . When the sun comes
                       out we say it is clearing UP...

                       When it rains, it wets the earth and often messes
                       things
                       UP.

                       When it doesn't rain for awhile, things dry UP.

                       One could go on and on, but I'll wrap it UP, for
                       now
                       my time is UP, so........it is time to shut UP!

                       Oh . . . one more thing:


                       What is the first thing you do in the morning & the
                       last
                       thing you do at night? U- P


Offline GoodOlBoy

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2009, 05:40:44 AM »
OK, let me turn the question around. When is it proper form to use the first name only? Colleagues, acquaintances, friends, relatives, lovers?

Hi SANDRO43.

My Father told me: "Son, in polite society we do not address people by their first names, unless they ask us to".  :)


GOB
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2009, 06:58:29 AM »
Hi SANDRO43. My Father told me: "Son, in polite society we do not address people by their first names, unless they ask us to". :)
Thank you GOB, I KNOW that, it's a pretty universal rule, when addressing people you are not intimate with, not to be informal.

I was trying to determine the 'usage area' (formal/informal) of the name+patronymic combination in Russian, since it is peculiar to that language/culture and has no equivalent in the West. I forgot to ask whether it also implies the use of the 2nd person plural (Вы), which would move it towards the formal/polite area.
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2009, 07:30:31 AM »
FP, the use of prepositions in English is one of hardest to grasp for a non-native English speaker, I still make the occasional mistake after 50+ years.

Apart from intrinsic language differences (for instance, transitive vs. intransitive verbs: we say guardare qualcuno, you to look AT someone), the use of prepositions as verb modifiers (where they become postpositions, actually ;)) is a trait of Germanic languages (German is more 'orderly', as could be expected :D, and attaches them in front of verbs, eg. fahren, abfahren, weiterfahren, unterfahren, etc.).

Not to mention when more than one preposition is used simultaneously, giving rise to multiple combinations like COME DOWN FROM, etc. When reminded of the stylistic awkwardness of such combinations, Winston Churchill replied:
This is a pedantry up with which I shall not put ;D
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2009, 11:37:32 AM »

I forgot to ask whether it also implies the use of the 2nd person plural (Вы), which would move it towards the formal/polite area.


Plural Вы is also a polite form of address to a stranger, a senior, or anyone in formal situations. The Russian pronoun ты usually is used between friends, members of a family, people who are in intimate relations.

Alexander Pushkin

Thou and You
She substituted, by a chance,
For empty "you" -- the gentle "thou";
And all my happy dreams, at once,
In loving heart again resound.
In bliss and silence do I stay,
Unable to maintain my role:
"Oh, how sweet you are!" I say --
"How I love thee!" says my soul.

ТЫ И ВЫ
Пустое вы сердечным ты
Она, обмолвясь, заменила
И все счастливые мечты
В душе влюбленной возбудила.
Пред ней задумчиво стою,
Свести очей с нее нет силы;
И говорю ей: как вы милы!
И мыслю: как тебя люблю!

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #93 on: February 06, 2009, 11:51:40 AM »
Plural Вы is also a polite form of address to a stranger, a senior, or anyone in formal situations. The Russian pronoun ты usually is used between friends, members of a family, people who are in intimate relations.
Yes Olga, that'd be normal polite usage almost everywhere, but my question was:
does name+patronymic necessitate the use of Вы?
Or can ты also be used (which I doubt)? If the former is true, then I'd say it's a formal/semi-formal mode of address.
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline OlgaH

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Re: FORMS OF ADDRESS
« Reply #94 on: February 06, 2009, 12:48:01 PM »
Yes Olga, that'd be normal polite usage almost everywhere, but my question was:
does name+patronymic necessitate the use of Вы?
Or can ты also be used (which I doubt)? If the former is true, then I'd say it's a formal/semi-formal mode of address.

Вы used with name+patronymic, but in some cases it can be used just with a name.

For example
man: Please let me introduce myself. My name is Michael.
women: Svetlana (reaching out her hand for Michael, or not if she doesn't feel like doing this  :) )
During their conversation they will use just their names without patronymics but with formal Вы addressing to each other, till the time the woman offers to substitute formal Вы for informal ты. 

Some people who were much older than me call me sometimes at my work using a diminutive-endearing Olyushka, but always with formal Вы.

Informal ты usually not used with patronymic. But I remember how our office cleaners sometimes were addressing to each other "Lisaveta Petrovna, did ты wash flowerpots? "  :) In Russia the old people who know each other for a long time sometimes use only patronymics with informal ты addressing to each other  :)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 01:00:41 PM by OlgaH »

Offline BC

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #95 on: February 06, 2009, 12:57:01 PM »
Boy that all sounds so complex...

No wonder 'Devushka' seems so popular...

LOL

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »
Boy that all sounds so complex...
Be patient (else I'll slap a flowchart on you 8)), it appears we're closing in on a +/- accurate definition. Of course, I should also have stated at the beginning that there are varying degrees of formality - borrowing from the title of linguist Roland Barthes's book Le degré zéro de l'écriture, intimacy/informality would be the "degré zéro" of formality.

Therefore, from what I've gleaned so far, a least-to-most classification of Russian formal usage could possibly look like this:

0. Nickname and ты (among intimates)
1. First name and ты (among intimates)
2. Name+patronymic and ты (only among old office cleaners :D)
3. Patronymic and ты (among assorted elders)
4. Nickname and (from senior colleagues, one-sided informality)

5. Name+patronymic and (among colleagues, acquaintances)
6. Sudar/sudarynya/baryshnya+family name and (with initial acquaintances/'normal' strangers)
7. Office/academic title+ name+patronymic and   (with 'respected' acquaintances)
8. Office/academic title+family name and (with 'respected' strangers)

How am I doing ::) ;D?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 04:18:31 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2009, 03:53:16 PM »

How am I doing ::) ;D?

Just fine  :D

but you forgot about the elders who use just a patronymics and ты addressing to each other.  ;D

- Semyonovna, look at these photos. We were so young and beautiful, especially me, and now we are so old and ugly...
- Yes, Petrovna, especially ты   

 

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2009, 04:07:26 PM »
but you forgot about the elders who use just a patronymics and ты addressing to each other.  ;D
OK, I inserted a new Category 2 to please you ;D (drat, I also had to add ANOTHER Category 0 :().
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 04:19:30 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: LANGUAGE !
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2009, 05:09:23 PM »
Right, let's lace the list with some examples and see how it works. Suppose I were addressing Anna Arkadyevna Karenina and telling her something like "you know...":

0. Nickname and ты (among intimates): Анечка, ты знаеш...
1. First name and ты (among intimates): Анна, ты знаеш...
2. Name+patronymic and ты (only among old office cleaners): Анна Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...
3. Patronymic and ты (among assorted elders): Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...
4. Nickname and Bы (from senior colleagues, one-sided informality): Анечка, Вы знаете...

5. Name+patronymic and Bы (among colleagues, acquaintances): Анна Аркадиевна, Вы знаете...
6. Sudar/sudarynya/baryshnya/etc.+family name and Bы (with initial acquaintances/'normal' strangers):  госпожа Каренина, Вы знаете...
7. Office/academic title+ name+patronymic and Bы  (with 'respected' acquaintances): Профессор Анна Аркадиевна, Вы знаете...
8. Office/academic title+family name and Bы (with 'respected' strangers): Профессор Каренина, Вы знаете...
9. Name+patronymic+family name and Bы (with 'highly-respected' strangers):  Анна Аркадиевна Каренина, Вы знаете...

The new Category 9 was prompted by:
Quote
The first name followed by the patronymic, without the family name, is used as a formal or respectful form of address. In the media, highly respected persons (e.g. leaders of the Soviet Union and Russia) are sometimes mentioned using their full names (first name + patronymic + family name).
There is also a special "patronymic-only" form of address used only among very close friends. In this form for men, a diminutive variant of the patronymic is usually used, with -ovich becoming -ych. For example, if Vasiliy Ivanovich Chapayev is a good friend of ours, we can call him just "Иваныч" (Ivan[ov]ich). By contrast, only full patronymic name is used for women, for example "Ивановна" ("Ivanovna"), not "Иванна" ("Ivanna").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_in_Russian_Empire,_Soviet_Union_and_CIS_countries
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