'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[LEGAL]

What about what is being to two of our members right now on her board?


What about Kvina's  board  writing about RWD SEE Olga's post up thread?



LEGAL

[I/O]

>>Is RWD in business with anti date or going to be?<<

I honestly have NO IDEA why this would even be a question. The mere fact that RWD might invite others to collaborate - particularly those who have strong and opposing viewpoints, simply means that we are seeking the best possible product which considers ALL point-of-view.

>>Is there a merger ?<<

See my answer above.

Dan: I have no particular axe to grind in this as my own situation is pretty much "sorted" but I will watch with interest.  However, the above is a "Half Arsed" answer and I reckon you can do better than that.  A simple "Yes" or "No" to both questions might have carried more weight. 

I/O

[Admin]

Dan: I have no particular axe to grind in this as my own situation is pretty much "sorted" but I will watch with interest.  However, the above is a "Half Arsed" answer and I reckon you can do better than that.  A simple "Yes" or "No" to both questions might have carried more weight. 

I/O

The simple answer is, of course, NO. I just did not see any possible leap of reason that would lead someone to conclude there was the remotest possibility of such an action.

Look, here is how I see it:

RWD has initiated a series of projects - RWD members can choose to participate, or not, as they see fit - in the event nothing comes of this particular project, the RWD members are unaffected - in the event something DOES come from this particular project (and I feel certain it will), then the members have been a part of developing and promoting a valuable resource available to others. This is a no-risk proposition.

- Dan

[Admin]

Dan,
A simple question: How can you expect someone to help develop guidelines involving integrity and ethics when they have proven not to have any?
KenC

Ken,

Like Bill, I have had topics devoted to me and Olya at Antidate. Sure, I find it offensive - but the simple facts are that Antidate is going to exist. We can ignore them - or we can argue with them - or we can do what is possible to find common ground with them.

I am not defending Kvinna or Antidate, particularly in their latest debacle with Bill - but I will say that there have been a few occasions in which we have worked to involve them, and they have proven to be reasonable.

It boils down to whether or not it is worth the effort to try to resolve differences. If it is worth some effort, there is little downside to making that effort.

- Dan

[LEGAL]

Dan to me it is interesting that Kvina can come here and insult members with no fear of reprisal and become part of this so called code of conduct. please see the quote below I wonder how our other members and their wives feel about this.

Yes, save your wife. We have no need for PMS hysterics

This is another quote from Kvinna   Code of conduct  BS>

by the way, it is how to play chess with seminude woman in bedroom

I love Olga very much and everyone should know I will not hesitate to use all my resources both in America  and in Russia to protect her and seek justice. 

PS Dan Please take my name personal off up thread. Thanking you in advance.
LEGAL

[Daveman]

I love Olga very much and everyone should know I will not hesitate to use all my resources both in America  and in Russia to protect her and seek justice. 

Legal, I certainly understand what you are saying.  I was there, I saw it. I think my comments about all of this are pretty clear in that thread.  Have I changed my opinion of what happened? No.  But I can put it aside and work for a common good.

The hostilities have a possibility of ending at this moment.  Seriously.  It'll take a few days probably to calm down, but, we have an opportunity to *change* the situation for the better.  I know there is still bad blood on both sides.  Let's try for a transfusion.   If it doesn't work, then we can go back to where we were before.  If it does work, we can accomplish something good.  And that's not simply the code of conduct, it is a better environment for all of us.

I think it's worth a shot.

Dave

[LEGAL]

Dave with all do respect you are one of the newest members here at RWD and you have been asked to be the UN  two words BS.  Married men should have been contacted first. Please explain to all of us with about your vast experience in the FSU and understanding of the culture.
My family has been living and doing business with the FSU government when it was the Soviet Union. Please don't patronize me with more of your BS. In my business we deal in facts and facts are facts and crap is crap.

LEGAL

[Daveman]

Dave with all do respect

Actually, that was without due respect. Thanks, but no thanks.

[LEGAL]

I call it as I see it and so do many other long time members. You are a real wise guy.


LEGAL

[START2]

I will mostly try to keep my thoughts and mouth guarded on this matter as I have no clout here. I will say that at this time that I prefer not to be "in bed with Kvinna" at this point.

[Gator]

legal wrote,

Married men should have been contacted first.

Why?  A married man initiated it, namely Dan, unless he is no longer married because he spends too much time away from his wife dealing with issues at this board.

Not to sound curt, or disrepectful, but we are trying to include a cross section. 

The single guys should not be excluded becuase they have had, and continue to have, the most recent exposure to the "meeting scene."  Besides, they are the ones who we hope would follow the guidelines.

[Daveman]

I call it as I see it and so do many other long time members. You are a real wise guy.


LEGAL

Legal, without a hint of bs in my mind or post here.  I'm simply not going to fight with you over gathering and compiling a portion of the information for an online document.  I'm not *writing* it. If it makes you feel better to vent your anger this way. That's fine.  I'm simply not going to return it.

Dave

[LEGAL]

Dave I am not angry at you at all.  I am insulted as many other experienced married members are.  I just want to know what gives you the right, when many people that are far more experienced than you were never even considered. I am sure you can understand this. I actually like what you post. I will admit for a new guy you seem to have your head on pretty straight. Many of us have spent allot of time in FSU I guess that doesn't count. That was not directed at you.


LEGAL

[Kuna]

Here are my initial thoughts on the standards we should try to uphold.  Many of the below are things we should know and learn over time... not in the initial writing phases.  If we agree these things are important to know we can then consider when and how they should be discovered.

Initial Contact:
We all know there are several methods of contacting women and they are all valid.  WMVM, WMVF, WMVO, Tours, Agency Power Dating, Introductions from Friends, Premium Introduction Services (Like Matchmaking Agencies).

How much to disclose and when is going to be a very contentious issue but I think with discussion we will find conscensus.  Do you tell a woman outright that you're visiting many or do you wait until she asks?  (Discussion will be needed on this!) I waited until she asked.

When My Girl asked if I had visited others I simply said, "Yes, but you're the only girl I am interested in. Have you met other men from the Internet"?

Her answer was just as simple, "Yes, I met one man a few months ago but I didn't like him. He was too old and he asked me to marry him when we were having our first coffee meeting. I'm glad I found you".

Topic closed!


Truth in Correspondence:
This can be perceived in many ways.  I know at home when people are dating they always are on their best behaviour... sometimes to the point of being deceptive about what they would be like as a future partner.

Personally my approach has always been different.  I'm courteous but I always tell a girl like it is.  I tell them I don't like any games and I don't partake in lies so I prefer open communication.  I'm looking for a girl that accepts me as I am and therefore I will always act as I do when I am in a relationship.

I find this approach better anyway.

Now.. I think there should be ABSOLUTE truth in correspondence and that includes truthful answers to ALL questions AND sending  recent photographs.

(I've actually said before I chose to send some unflattering photographs because I think "perfect pics" are deceptive in themselves.  Of course we want to send good pics but I think it's wise to ALSO send realistic pics).

I also think there are BIG benefits in the long term for a man to be VERY realistic in his communication.  If you paint a rosey picture you're only going to have a world of pain later!

What Information should be voluntarily disclosed:
- Age (Would anyone bother lying about their age?)
- Previous serious relationships (Marriages, failed engagements, de facto relationships) including when they ended.
- Criminal record. I don't think it's unreasonable to tell a woman if you've been convicted of a crime.
- Serious health issues (past and current + Current STD's). This includes things that could or would affect lifestyle of you or your partners lifestyle.
- Children, ages, quality of your relationship, custody or access details and how they might feel about a new mother joining the family.
- Vision for future (What you REALLY want: Imminent retirement plans, career desires and demands, concept of a wife's role in the marriage, discipline of existing children, desire or no desire for more children)
- Travel plans (When will you go to FSU and how long will you spend there, what your intentions are, etc)
- Family relationships and friendships...Who's important to you and why
- Financial status. This will affect lifestyle when she arrives in your home... TELL HER what your family lifeastyle will be like.

What should you ask her:
- Relationships with family and friends at home (including status of relationships with the father of her children - if any);
- Previous serious romantic relationships (but not casual dating etc...  I don't know about you but I don't care about my partners recent of previous short term relationships. Marriages, engagements, de facto relationships should be understood in my opinion)
- Her general health, any issues you should be aware of
- Education
- Religion, moral and ethical beliefs
- Beliefs about her role in relationships
- Her beliefs about her future husbands role in the relationship
- How she manages disagreements within relationships
- Things she learned in past failed (serious) relationships
- Her desires and intentions for future marriage
- Her preparedness and understanding of the challenges of living abroad and how her family and friends feel about this
- Career, education and motherhood goals
- How long she has been listed on Internet Dating sites and how many sites she is on (but not specifics about her internet dating)
- At what point should you both stop looking for new partners (After meeting, after marriage proposal, after visa, after marriage?)
- Beliefs about monogamy when in serious relationships

What you have no right to ask (about/for):
- Sexual past (number of sexual partners, activities they've partaken in, ANYTHING of a sexual nature before meeting)
- No lewd or sexually explicit photographs, fantasies, etc prior to meeting
- Number of Internet prospects she is currently corresponding with

Leading up to first meeting:
- Do your best to learn about her culture and language
- Be aware of current events in her country and community
- Prepare yourself for a serious relationship
- Maintain consistent correspondence but do not unreasonably raise either your or her expectations

Behaviour at first meetings:
- Treat a girl with respect and courtesy
- Meet in a public place in the first instance and do not put her in situations where she will feel uncomfortable
- No pressure to partake in sexual activity that she may not be comfortable with
- YOU pay for the dates (including her travel to the city you're in) but YOU decide on the volume and velocity of expenditure
- Bring photos of your family, friends, pets, etc that show your lifestyle

Getting to know her:
-Don't have multiple sexual partners if you're serious about finding true love and marriage.  This includes prostitution.  I believe a man needs to be emotionally healthy to be ready for true love... but maybe that's just me!
- Listen to her wants and desires...  LISTEN and if you don't understand ask her questions so you do understand

Before you propose:
- Discuss all of the above before you propose marriage
- Listen and acknowledge her wants and desires (Don't just listen... either agree with her or discuss and agree on a mutually acceptable outcome
- Introduce her to your family and close friends (Phone, email, letters). Make her a part of your life before you go pitching marriage
- Discuss the practicalities of marriage.. how often can she expect to be able to visit home? How much will phone and internet cost for her to stay in touch with family and friends. Can you afford it?
- Discuss family budgeting. How will you manage money? How can she have her own funds? what financial freedom will she have?

Leading up to Marriage:
- Continue full disclosure of things happening in your life;
- Include her in your decisions
- Be honest about the timing of Visa applications etc and stick to your promises
- Remain monogamous even if you're separated by thousands of kilometres (if you're in a relationship act like it)
- Be patient when she has difficulties... Don't make her life harder... She's taking a HUGE step!
- Assist with the additional costs incurred in her life as a recult of the impending marriage
- Learn her language as best as you can
- Involve her family as much as possible in your future plans
- Consider her family and friendships when planning your future lives together
- Confirm her expectations and relay your expectations to her. Keep on track
- Prepare your home but don't make drastic changes she would want to be involved in
- Get your financial affairs in order
- In planning your marriage consider the things she would have dreamt of... Make your marriage a special day she can treasure (This may include paying for her family to be at the wedding if they can get visa's etc)


Her arrival:
- As a minimum meet her at her Point of Entry but if possible travel to her for her departure from home
(Married people will need to add detail here for me because I have a plan but I've not been here yet)

Conduct during marriage:
Again I have plans for what I want to do... but it's an area others would have much better comments on


Gawwwd... there are probably a thousand things I have forgotten and I was probably too detailed in other areas (so many of my items could be summarised) but I hope at least I've started some ideas going about the things we should or shouldn't do in the courting process.

Hmmm... I might leave this for a while and come back and edit down to one paragraph.

Kuna

[LEGAL]

legal wrote,
 

Why?  A married man initiated it, namely Dan, unless he is no longer married because he spends too much time away from his wife dealing with issues at this board.

Not to sound curt, or disrepectful, but we are trying to include a cross section. 

The single guys should not be excluded becuase they have had, and continue to have, the most recent exposure to the "meeting scene."  Besides, they are the ones who we hope would follow the guidelines.

Gator before I start. I do respect and like you very much. I am not the eloquent writer you are so as usual I will get right to the point. You say you are trying to include a cross section well lets look how the list starts. This speaks volumes and without going into a rant  I do believe you know exactly what I mean. My personal emails and phone have been ringing all day. Many long term members have been insulted by this.


LEGAL

[LEGAL]

The best thing is for me to forget it I see where this is going and the decisions have been made by the powers that be.  Wow what a disappointment. Gee now you guys are going to teach grown men respect and common sense that they already should have had. I ask you Gator how would your wife feel, Is this the type of person that should be writing any type of code of ethics and I could post allot more but I won't


Quote from: Kvinna on Today at 02:51:38 AM
Yes, save your wife. We have no need for PMS hysterics



This is another quote from Kvinna   Code of conduct  BS>
Quote from: Kvinna on Yesterday at 09:21:51 PM

by the way, it is how to play chess with seminude woman in bedroom

I don't expect Daveman to understand he is not married.
LEGAL

[Gator]

Legal,

Please do not give up.  We need you. 

Reading your reaction and that of others, I think we first need to define an objective.  Thus, we would appreciate receiving some input here as to the objective of this guideline.   Target audience?  Scope?  Use? 

So we should concentrate on that first.  The RWD membership at large would thus serve as the executive power.  And the objective would serve as the committee’s marching orders when preparing the initial draft. 
 

So who would like to throw something out?

[Gator]

Kuna,

Very comprehensive list.  Just your list of what to address is longer than what I envisioned as the final product.  So maybe I am off target.

So that is another issue that should be decided by the RWD membership at large.
How long should this document be?

I think the UN declaration of human rights is only 2-3 pages IIRC.

[catzenmouse]

I'm not sure who that group of other experienced married members are but I think that having a core set of folks from every aspect of this adventure is a good thing. We need all levels of experience to chime in on this and if we only picked experienced married members we would have a very biased final product. Who would that serve? Certainly not the people that it is focused on which is the men who are actually searching for a life partner. Being one of those married members I can easily say that my opinion as to what is appropriate would be slanted to how I feel and think now, not how I thought 4, or 5 years ago when I was looking into this.

And for the record: No, I was not asked to join, no, I don't want to jump in bed with AD, yes, I do think we have a lot of common goals, yes, the treatment of Bill was uncalled for.

My dva kopeka,

 Ken

Dave I am not angry at you at all.  I am insulted as many other experienced married members are.  I just want to know what gives you the right, when many people that are far more experienced than you were never even considered. I am sure you can understand this. I actually like what you post. I will admit for a new guy you seem to have your head on pretty straight. Many of us have spent allot of time in FSU I guess that doesn't count. That was not directed at you.


LEGAL

[LEGAL]

So let me get this right if you are going to give your kid a car and let him learn to drive on his own.

LEGAL

[catzenmouse]

Then they need to say it here. Not offline. That is was this board is all about. Discussing ideas, working through the pro's and con's. Making changes where they need to be changed. Saying these things behind the scenes is a wussy way to go about it.

As always,
 Just MHO,
   Ken

Gator before I start. I do respect and like you very much. I am not the eloquent writer you are so as usual I will get right to the point. You say you are trying to include a cross section well lets look how the list starts. This speaks volumes and without going into a rant  I do believe you know exactly what I mean. My personal emails and phone have been ringing all day. Many long term members have been insulted by this.


LEGAL

[catzenmouse]

So let me get this right if you are going to give your kid a car and let him learn to drive on his own.

LEGAL

In a word: Huh?

[jb]

FWIW,

All this sounds more like Politically Correct appeasement than crafting a set of conduct guidelines for grown ups.

I worked on the FAQ project because the goal there was informational, this project's thrust is to influence, not inform.   I think there is a big difference between the two and there is a line of freedoms we must respect, and not cross over that line and try to become cyber police and impose someone's arbitrary rules of conduct on others.

I think this is a bad idea.

[Kuna]

Legal,

You know I hold you and Olga in the very highest regard.  I read both your posts and listen to everything you two say.  When I see anyone criticise you I read their comments and I believe on every occasion I find the opposing view to be offensive.  In one infamous thread I felt no compulsion to defend Olga's good name but I did so without hesitation because the offensive person was obviously malicious and self-serving.

I also have no doubt you and Olga both have an immense capacity to add value to a Code Of Conduct for men.

As for Kvinna, I can't have respect for her at this time.  I think she's offensive and has shown absolutely no integrity in her unsubstantiated attack on Bill and others in "that" other thread.

At the same time I'll be fascinated to hear what she believes is unacceptable behaviour for a man looking for a FSUW.  I'll also bet she hasn't thought through this process as much as most intelligent men that have undertaken the journey.

The real outcome of this process could be guidelines for men to consider and hopefully adopt when the look to FSU for a future wife.  The guidelines themselves might actually improve their success in finding and keeping a wife.  This is where your opinion will have a high impact.

As for the "committee"... I don't care so much about the constitution of the committe because I think the outcome will be (as usual) driven by the members of RWD.

There may even be newbies who object to some of the standards others suggest. Example.. in my post I added many specific things we should ask and do prior to making any commitment.  Based on the "Language" threads in here some will believe it's unreasonable to have such in depth discussions with a future wife.

Do I think AD and Kvinna will have an undue influence on the final code?  I doubt that very much.  From my perspective it appears that RWD is here to support successful relationships and from my limited understanding I can only assume AD is there to turn women against men.  I hope I'm wrong and I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

Anyway...  I think the Code is a good concept.  Let me share one more small thing with you.

When I was in Kiev I met two americans who had made several trips to FSU looking for "wives". They'd been in Donetsk and one found a lady he wanted to pursue a future with.  The other didn't like any of the women he met and on that night was going out to find a hooker for the night even though he had dates in Kiev coming up over the next few days.  BY the way the second guy was grossly obese, sloppily dressed ad loud and arrogant.  How did I feel about their conduct?  The man that went to FSU looking for a wife (and found a nice lady) seemed to act with integrity but the other man was, in my opinion, unsuitable husband material anyway.

Would the CoC make a difference??? Maybe not, but the content may make some men just think twice about what they do when they are "on the ground".

Let's see how this evolves.  If Kvinna or others make a mockery of the process I'll pull the pin on my involvement BUT I think such a code could have great benefits for men that are searching and women who (without doubt) have been treated poorly before.

Respectfully,

Kuna

[Kuna]

Kuna,

Very comprehensive list.  Just your list of what to address is longer than what I envisioned as the final product.  So maybe I am off target.

So that is another issue that should be decided by the RWD membership at large.
How long should this document be?

I think the UN declaration of human rights is only 2-3 pages IIRC.

Gator,

Once I started writing I tried to "bang down" the things I thought were important...the things that I thought were important when I was corresponding and the things I hold important now.  Of course there's a lot that can be summarised as the subject of honesty and openness is covered a dozen times at least in there...   perhaps most of my post is gumpf that is too detailed.

It's out there though... if you want me to summarise I will but it'll have to be tonight.   

Kuna