LANGUAGE

[SANDRO43]

LEARNING LANGUAGE

Language, linguistics and related subjects are one of my main interests.

Recently, having run out of new books, I started re-reading "The Genesis of Language - A Psycholinguistic Approach", a book published in 1966 by the MIT University Press and containing the edited proceedings on  a conference on "Language Development in Children" sponsored by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NIH).

I confess I must have read only bits of it while preparing my thesis many years ago, because I only now realised what a challenging and fascinating subject it contains.

How does a child learn to speak the language of its family, since at birth it possesses absolutely no language skills and starts uttering something intelligible only at the age of about 1 year?

A long-accepted hypothesis was that a child's mind was a tabula rasa (empty table) that would be filled by parental instruction, while others even suggested that isolated infants would lead to discover the fundamental character of human nature or the origin of language: according to Herodotus, the Egyptian pharaoh Psamtik I carried out such an experiment, and concluded the Phrygian race must antedate the Egyptians because the isolated child had first spoken something similar to the Phrygian word bekos, meaning "bread".

Since the conference was held at MIT, not surprisingly some participants contributed opinions based on Noam Chomsky's epochal books like "Aspects of the Theory of Syntax" (1966) and "Topics in the Theory of Generative Grammar" (1966) where he postulates that human development caused language structures to become gradually wired into the human brain.

Having had no children, I had no opportunity of watching their language development. Apparently, they start with simple nouns like "mama" when they first develop a self-aware personality - and recognise their main provider of nourishment .

Later on they start adding verbs - called pivots at the conference - and make very simple sentences.

Can any parent here add his/her personal experiences on this subject?

[DaveNY]

When our twin girls were born my wife began working from home doing data analysis. She still does it although now as a private contractor. Since my wife was at home all the time the girls started learning Russian simply because my wife was always there and most of her friends who would visit were Russian.

Even before they could speak we read to them. My wife in Russian and myself in English. When they started speaking we each spoke to them in our native language. As time went on the girls would speak more and more and tended to favor Russian simply because they spoke it more often with my wife and her friends..

Funny thing is I ended up speaking more and more Russian. The girls would want me to read to them and they'd choose a book or we'd listen to video. At about 2 years of age, they were too young to understand, mommy speaks Russian, daddy speaks English so most of the time, out of habit, they'd choose a Russian language book or video. I'd read them a Russian language book and we'd listen to a Russian video.

Their English language skills didn't suffer. We'd take the girls to groups for toddlers at community centers or friends with kids of a similar age so they'd get lots of English language practice. When they started kindergarten they had no problems with English

Our girls will soon turn 9 and over the years it seems our family speaks more Russian at home. Since there are few Russian speakers at school or any events the girls participate in they predominantly speak English outside the home unless with some of our Russian friends or of course when we're in Russia.

Our girls started learning Spanish at school in grade 1. The school calls it an enrichment program for Spanish. It's not bilingual but more than just a Spanish class. They're eager to practice Spanish outside of school and will order meals in Spanish at local delis, restaurants, etc. NYC is about 40% Spanish speaking in our part of town so they get lots of practice.

Prior to our girls birth, even in Russia, my wife and I spoke mostly English. Today, my wife and I tend to speak Russian even when we're alone, at home or out. IMO this is due to the fact that the girls learned Russian first or perhaps it's a plot by my wife to me into a Russian.   

[SANDRO43]

Thanks for your contribution, Dave. However, can you remember what they said when they first started speaking either language?

[DaveNY]

Thanks for your contribution, Dave. However, can you remember what they said when they first started speaking either language?

They started off with the usual mama (мама) in Russia which is close to mama in English and dada in English. I was told that dada is easier to say than daddy for those learning to speak. It took them another few month or two of practice to get daddy. Mama is Russian is pretty common and they still use it today.

Then they learned to wave and say words like hello and bye bye combined with a wave. Other words like hungry, water and words for food followed. Most of it was in Russian with English following.

I discovered with our daughters that it's not uncommon for kids learning to speak multiple languages to mix up the languages. Start in one language end in another. They got frustrated sometimes when they wanted to say something but didn't know the words. 

[msmob]

Nice thread, Sandro

I remember the first recognition of a word and the first recognisable word spoken

My first wife kept pointing to the  light and said, "light" and I was called to come home as "something wonderful had happened" ...

Daughter no.1 raised her hand - not pointing her hand flopped backwards as the arm was raised -  looked up at the light and smiled at the simple joy in her Mum's eye's

Mum was a little peeved when Dada came out before Mama

When she was two - we went to France on hols and she spoke many French words at the end of three weeks - simply interacting with French kids... even pointing to a Frog that had got into the pool and telling us 'Grenoille' - pronounced to perfection

At 1 year 10 months we flew to DisneyWorld in Florida and she could not string sentences together and she knew she was going to see a mouse on a bus that when it the sky..

On her return, Mama was Mommy, Barney the Dinosaur was her friend, and Mickey Mouse was her idle - she knew what an aeroplane was and strung sentences together..

Some had said it was too early to take her - but she says she remembers many aspects of that trip and it certainly brought her language skills on and it took WEEKS to get rid of the across the pond accent

[BillyB]

My first wife was Ukrainian I met in the States in the 90's. She had a  3 1/2 yo son who didn't speak any English. He went along with us on some dates but was totally silent and very jealous of me since he sensed his mom was happy with me and that threaten his way of life. Although he was totally silent, he was listening and one day he said "Look over there!" after he seen something interesting. he quickly picked up English after he started school and today he is in college and has no accent.

Read an article on surviving septuplets that are now adults. Their parents said all 7 babies eventually developed their own language they spoke to each other and understood. Even at a young age, not only can kids learn multiple languages, they can develop their own.

[Trenchcoat]

That's a great contribution Dave It goes to show that more than one language to learn should be chosen at birth - one that will be thought to be most useful to the child in the future - and accommodation made for when the child will learn the language. It seems to me that trying to get children & adults to learn later on is an inefficient waste of time in comparison for most people. Better to get the language learning out the way while young and more easier for them to pick up than take up valuable time later which can be spent on other learning.

If I ever had Children I think I would choose for them to learn Russian regardless of whether both parents were English from birth. Sticking with just one language learning from birth seems self limiting for the child after reading this. A good read indeed

[mhr7]

If I ever had Children I think I would choose for them to learn Russian regardless of whether both parents were English from birth. Sticking with just one language learning from birth seems self limiting for the child after reading this.

Trench, this is the part of Dave's post that is key -

When our twin girls were born my wife began working from home doing data analysis. She still does it although now as a private contractor. Since my wife was at home all the time the girls started learning Russian simply because my wife was always there and most of her friends who would visit were Russian.

Even before they could speak we read to them. My wife in Russian and myself in English. When they started speaking we each spoke to them in our native language. As time went on the girls would speak more and more and tended to favor Russian simply because they spoke it more often with my wife and her friends..

His daughters were in a Russian speaking environment, something two English only parents would have more difficulty and expense reproducing.

[mhr7]

Although he was totally silent, he was listening and one day he said "Look over there!"

Stephan Krashen refers to this as the 'silent period' in which children don't produce but still process language. It's a common trait of second language learning in children.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, this is the part of Dave's post that is key -

His daughters were in a Russian speaking environment, something two English only parents would have more difficulty and expense to reproduce.

True, but I think it would be worth seeing if the same or similar results might be had with a tutor and some Russian reading & visual maerial, etc. I have a hunch the results might prove surprising.

[mhr7]

True, but I think it would be worth seeing if the same or similar results might be had with a tutor and some Russian reading & visual maerial, etc. I have a hunch the results might prove surprising.

It won't prove surprising as children learn a second language quite well but the advantage Dave's kids have is they acquired Russian from the environment. There is a difference between learning and acquiring

[Trenchcoat]

It won't prove surprising as children learn a second language quite well but the advantage Dave's kids have is they acquired Russian from the environment. There is a difference between learning and acquiring

Most Children don't start learning a second  language until much older. I was 11 before I started to learn a second language at Schooligan (UK). My guess is that if I had tuition in it from the age of 1 or 2 - even the odd few words or reading material I would have picked it up much better, fluent instead of basic (now rusty basic, virtually non existent).

[msmob]

Trench,

do you have kids ?

or is this ANOTHER thread where we must endure your 'bollox theories' ?

[Trenchcoat]

or is this ANOTHER thread where we must endure your 'bollox theories' ?

Quite possibly