Did I Screw Up?

[BC]

"Hey! wanna talk about our future together?  I think you need to know more about me..."  and go on to give some details about your work, living and financial situation.  Include stuff like your workday hours and free time you will be available to spend with her after her arrival.

In normal conversation, she will likely offer more information about her situation.

[scarface816]

Thanks that helps.

Another question I have that has been covered here. And that is about the idea of giving her an allowance until she moves to the US. Interesting idea and it would seem to clear up some of the questions that can arise.

How would you do this and when?

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

When would this type of arrangement be set up?

It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.

[krimster2]

well, my advice is to proceed slowly....
I'm an engineer by profession, but switched to being a "biznessman" because I got tired of making other people rich instead of myself....
so ya gotta perform "due diligence"
WHO is this woman?
where does she work, what does she do?  whats' her income?
what's her family like?
what's her apartment like?
HOW does she live? cooks at home from scratch?


you have to acquire this "intel" and evaluate it...
and BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR RED FLAGS!!!
and to reiterate, TWO BIG red flags here with Miss Dnepr!
NOT meeting her family is a HUGE red flag!!!
ya wanna know why?
SCAMMERS don't take their marks to meet mamma and poppa. THAT'S WHY!!
second red flag is getting "ambushed" with a large unexpected bill
completely a SCAMMER MOVE!!!

so I see TWO RED FLAGS just from what you wrote here
and I suspect, that if I were there in person, I'd see A LOT MORE RED FLAGS!!!

BTW, really is a big advantage to "having the women come to you"
by that I mean, if you had a Russian social media presence
and you were getting contacts this way, then you know the following with these wimmin:

1. they're interested enough in you and what your web site is about to write to you
2. they're NOT trying to scam you for money
3. they're chill with how you look, age, etc.

I call this the "running it up the flag pole and see who salutes it" approach!
if you had a GOOD web site in Russian on a FEMALE TOPIC and you hired a VK web site promoter to create a fan page for you
expect a MINIMUM of 1,000 contacts from this, and not out of the question to get 10,000 or more
all with bios and pics

this is what the smart guys do!!!
and you could have a Russian girl friend in every city in Russia if you wanted to!!!!
BUT...
ya gotta learn Russian tovarisch, horrosho?


ONLY after you start talking about a K1 should you talk about financial planning with her
and you ask her for a full financial disclosure and provide her yours...
then you say, "I'd like to make a budget with you for the pre-visa period"
and you work out whatever those details should be....
THEN if there's an ambush, even an inexperienced guy would know it's a scammer ambush!!!

for a stipend...
I'd tell her to quit work, and you'll support her
for Dnepr, $500 per month is more than adequate
and there are lots of ways to send money to Ukraine
I used to use Western Union

YOU must take the lead and steer here...
say "we're gonna talk about money now and work out a budget TOGETHER"
any attempt to operate outside this indicates a SCAM!

[GQBlues]

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, the newbie is most welcome. His premise regarding the WMs in the MOB is spot on that describe the very majority of them.

I don't know the guy or the gal, so I wouldn't call either of them
desperate. He could be a hopeless romantic or something in that
vein and she could be the same or similar.

He's here now and will get a lot of advice. Some of it will be very
good and some of it will be more dubious. He should sift through
the advice and use the advice he finds most applicable to his goals,
personality and situation and most importantly not take any of it
personally.

Very true and I agree. With that said...

Had it been me - "asking and/or accepting $800 to treat her illness in Ukraine, then asking for nearly $1,000.00 twice, etc..then throws it back at me saying that it is well within 'our understanding' that I take care of her" would not have transpired to begin with. Even if I was as rich as Gator or ML, I still wouldn't patronize and foster a *stranger* who expects that 'caring for her' has a price tag. But that's just me.

We all reap what we sow. YMMV.

[scarface816]

Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

[msmob]

Ignore those who say 'move on'...get your ass over there, look her in the eye and agree a plan and if you cannot ..you have you answer...?

 

[GQBlues]

Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

1. I would not have wasted my time speaking to anyone I have not met in person for any length of time before ever meeting her in person. To me, that puts anyone in a confined environment to make any sane, and dare I say, rational decisions because all you really have is an image concocted solely in your mind, fueled strongly by your longing to 'touch' that image. By the time you do meet, your longing and emotions have taken over your ability to properly evaluate any given situation. Especially in an environment that is outside your norm and comfort (foreign country/culture).

I will spend all the time I can to get to know someone whom I already met, and have had a mutual and clear understanding of taking the necessary steps from thereon to get to know each other better.

2. Never, at any time, should one abandon your wits and instincts. You have been equipped with it for a very damn good reason. This includes not relying on strangers in the internet making life-changing decisions in my life,

3. You, on this current woman based on your story, I would've moved on a long time ago. You cannot lose what you never had!

[ML]

Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

Several of us have given you the correct path to take.

This gal is not for you and not for any American man.
She is running a con on you, even as it may be a very subtle and non aggressive con.
The FSU women are getting more and more sophisticated in their cons as they have learned from their sisters in crime and from reading discussion sites such as this.

Yes, some are still very aggressive and move in quickly for the kill because they don't want to take a lot of time.

But others are trying out a new approach such as this gal.  Slower, but steady.

Last night I gave a copy of your original message to my Ukrainian wife and told her to read it just before bed or first thing in morning, and that we would talk about it during our regular walk this morning.

Then this morning, I printed out the new message from the female that showed up here for first time, with moniker of Frrrrrrt.  I read that to my wife when we were walking.

She agreed almost 100% with what Frrrrrt wrote.

And she said that the money the gal asked for rent was ridiculous.  She has a relative who has a vet clinic right near center of Kyiv and rent is $900 per month for a very large nice space.  And the money you sent for medical was also ridiculous.  For pneumonia treatment the cost would be nothing at clinic or give them $20 or so, and antibiotic would be less than $10.

Also, she nor any of her friends would ever dream of asking a man to buy her shoes or anything else, let alone thousands of dollars for rent, medical treatment, etc.  Even after formal proposal and engagement they would never ask for such.   And planning marriage after such a short acquaintance time and not even meeting daughter and parents, friends, etc.  Totally absurd.

It doesn't matter that the money in question is not all that much for you or any other western man; it's the principle that she is scamming you.

In short, she said that you must be a very stupid and/or desperate man to fall for such an obvious scam.

As I told in first page.

Drop this gal.
Get back into the market.
Plan trip that includes meeting several women so you have a basis for comparison and don't have to ask such elementary questions here about . . . when to have sex, when to talk about money . . . etc., etc.  All this gets sorted out once you meet with several women and gain experience with FSU women.

There is the very old scam involving a dropped wallet on street.  I am sure you and others have heard of it.

But have you ever seen several pages written about the motives of the person who dropped the wallet, what path you should take in the future when you see a dropped wallet, how you should act with the person who dropped the wallet when you meet with them in future, etc.?

No . . . Everyone knows you just avoid dropped wallets.  Not a need to discuss and analyze it ad infinitum.

[scarface816]

Well, I appreciate the information and there is some good advice here. And your wife confirms it.

The nastiness was not necessary. If you don't want to discuss it anymore then don't or go somewhere else. No need to be abusive.

As for the con and it being obvious it apparently is not. Since many experienced men on this site have recommended not only that I am the one treating her wrong but that I should put her on an allowance. Which is giving an "obvious con/scammer" even more money.

As for asking when to have sex I never asked that. I know how to date a woman. I asked about when to have a suggested highly unusual discussion with a woman about her finances and my finances to establish her intimate financial situation to head off a potential con in the future. That I have no experience with and I suspect that even the most experienced men do not have.

This is certainly not so simple as a "dropped wallet" as you allude to in the end but in the beginning, you use the words "sophisticated and subtle" indicating this is not as it seems in your own words.

[jone]

One of the reasons that many posters on this forum have advised you to put 'feet on the ground' and spend time with her, and, in addition, her family, is so that you will know how she interacts with people - including and especially her family.

For many reasons, not the least of which is the Soviet upbringing that many of these family units endured, there is a sense of protectionism that surrounds most people's lives living in Eastern Europe.   That protectionism seems to disappear when a man is brought into a welcoming home of the immediate family of the woman he is dating. 

I, and others, recommended the family meet - if only to judge her willingness to share with her family that the two of your are close and that you wish to pursue a more permanent relationship.   The converse is also true.   It is a huge red flag for a woman not to be keen on introducing you to her family.   

Unlike the most recent posters who have posted that this woman is only a scammer or looks like only a scammer, I think that there is more depth here and could be successfully explored.   But not over Skype.

[Trenchcoat]

Any attempt to operate outside this indicates a SCAM!

How so Krim? Wouldn't she just happily pocket the money for the time she gets it? $500 a month for doing nothing could be seen as a steal by many UW surely?

[scarface816]

One of the reasons that many posters on this forum have advised you to put 'feet on the ground' and spend time with her, and, in addition, her family, is so that you will know how she interacts with people - including and especially her family.

For many reasons, not the least of which is the Soviet upbringing that many of these family units endured, there is a sense of protectionism that surrounds most people's lives living in Eastern Europe.   That protectionism seems to disappear when a man is brought into a welcoming home of the immediate family of the woman he is dating. 

I, and others, recommended the family meet - if only to judge her willingness to share with her family that the two of your are close and that you wish to pursue a more permanent relationship.   The converse is also true.   It is a huge red flag for a woman not to be keen on introducing you to her family.   

Unlike the most recent posters who have posted that this woman is only a scammer or looks like only a scammer, I think that there is more depth here and could be successfully explored.   But not over Skype.

Lessons learned. I was planning on doing both of these. I had talked about meeting the family. And spending more time with her. She had agreed to both. But I did not execute on this

[BC]

Thanks that helps.

Another question I have that has been covered here. And that is about the idea of giving her an allowance until she moves to the US. Interesting idea and it would seem to clear up some of the questions that can arise.

How would you do this and when?

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

When would this type of arrangement be set up?

It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.

I would think the best time to go into this would be after you have a better understanding of her living and income situation and vice versa.

It's something to decide together.

As I stated before, I gave my to be wife a credit card, albeit one with a limit, 5k, asked her to do what she thought was reasonable in preparation for our wedding in RU along with whatever living expenses she needed.  It was used very little and amounts totally reasonable, including the cost of a tombstone for her grandmother that passed between trips.  This sorta eased the way with family into being able to get married in the mourning period, so yeah I deemed that reasonable and necessary.

During my trips before we were engaged, I would simply give her the cash I had budgeted for the trip and tell her when it's gone I have to go home... believe it or not one trip was extended two weeks past my visa expiration date,  but with a bit of magik a new visa appeared in my passport

This sorta gave me an idea of what to expect, but not saying there were no budgetary challenges down the road

Guess it's sorta like dancing for the first time with a new partner.. a bit of give and take initially to find out what works out and if it remains enjoyable and within means.

This just my experience, not instructions.

Have you been introduced to family, friends etc and spent some time with them all and get a picture of family dynamics, both good and bad?  Always good idea I think. 

PS.. I'm posting this without having first reviewed all the previous posts..  quick moving thread...

[JayH]

Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

On business costs --ditto--  a months rent is not the cost of running any  business --it will have been more complicated than that.

On potential monthly payment -$500 -- not enough. It may be ok for survival and potentially  she has managed at that level -- but -- BUT-- not enough to live (LIVE) on. (once again it indicates to me guys living in the past)

There is some solid advice across the thread ( as I said much earlier) and I try not to repeat what others have already covered too much !  Note  BC -- calm and sensible solid advice.

Many have commented on getting to know her better( me included)  --and given you have already done K1 -that should be urgent now.When with someone extended time-- you see and learn a lot-- and I do not mean on a holiday somewhere .Being open minded and learn about her life ( including how she goes about shoe shopping etc) . Doing day to day things is often eye opening imo.

Did you buy her flowers when you were there?What else did you buy? Or have you taken the "I gave you some cash that is enough" approach?   My point is getting hung up over a few  $  is impeding your big picture thinking -- get past that and take a much wider look.

[scarface816]

Thanks Jay

Yes, I did buy her flowers and some small gifts also. I am getting confirmation on the money thing from a couple of Ukrainian women on here so there does seem to be some disagreement on this. I am not a tightwad. I have spent money plenty of money in the past. And I have supported people for most of my life. But it I am getting lied to and used that is a problem.

A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.

But I have been forthright and honest throughout this entire process and I am treated her very well overall. Our relationship seemed to be delightful before. No real problems. But that was before when I was sending her cash for items that do not appear to be legitimate. Now it is not looking very good. I have not accused her in any way or got emotional or angry with her. I have been very calm and even.

I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.

[BC]

I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

Don't feel bad. Par for the course.

The best advice I can probably give is don't follow your penis.

[krimster2]

8,000 UAH
if that’s her monthly income that’s a little over $300
why does she need $1900 for rent for a business that makes her $300 per month?

RED FLAG, because that’s the standard income for a McJob in Ukraine
me thinks you’re bein played...

[2tallbill]

My husband has never gone shoe, or clothes shopping with me, and
we've managed to make it to well over three decades notwithstanding
this heinous lack of interest in my shoe purchases. 

You have feet and you live in Canada, somehow you've managed not
to get frost bite or show up shoe-less to an important social event.
I have the same level of interest in my wife's shoe shopping as your
husband does about yours.

It would never occur to my wife Angel Eyes to ask me to go shoe
shopping with her. We shop for food together frequently because
I do some of the cooking and she trusts my ability to pick out
fresh vegetables etc and I don't mind doing it. Shoe shopping
however, I would start painfully dying of boredom before she
tried on a second pair of shoes.

[scarface816]

8,000 UAH
if that’s her monthly income that’s a little over $300
why does she need $1900 for rent for a business that makes her $300 per month?

RED FLAG, because that’s the standard income for a McJob in Ukraine
me thinks you’re bein played...

Yep.

[jone]

Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

On business costs --ditto--  a months rent is not the cost of running any  business --it will have been more complicated than that.

On potential monthly payment -$500 -- not enough. It may be ok for survival and potentially  she has managed at that level -- but -- BUT-- not enough to live (LIVE) on. (once again it indicates to me guys living in the past)

There is some solid advice across the thread ( as I said much earlier) and I try not to repeat what others have already covered too much !  Note  BC -- calm and sensible solid advice.

Many have commented on getting to know her better( me included)  --and given you have already done K1 -that should be urgent now.When with someone extended time-- you see and learn a lot-- and I do not mean on a holiday somewhere .Being open minded and learn about her life ( including how she goes about shoe shopping etc) . Doing day to day things is often eye opening imo.

Did you buy her flowers when you were there?What else did you buy? Or have you taken the "I gave you some cash that is enough" approach?   My point is getting hung up over a few  $  is impeding your big picture thinking -- get past that and take a much wider look.

Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?

[GQBlues]

Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?

 

I was going to comment on the same thing, but thought it will be off-topic. I'm sure there are other doctors in Ukraine she could've gone to that didn't have shower wax lodged in his ear.

Q-Tips anyone?

[Trenchcoat]

Yep.

It's a higher than a low $100-150 a month or so a lot of UW can find themselves in who are in basic jobs.

There might be reasons for her not having saved much money. If she's Materialistic she could have spent a lot on clothes, jewellery, cosmetics etc. A girl who looks after herself to look good, buys that stuff, goes to the gym or similar, etc. Cost of her daughter, general living costs, costs of a better than bog standard place to live, etc, etc Plus has she been in work all that long, etc, etc.

I think you need to find more out about her if for learning purposes more than anything else. Take her up on her offer to meet her family, etc and get over there as quick as you can to resolve the battle going on in your mind.

She's been asking for what some would consider some large amounts of money from you on the hoof. Why she tapped you for this could be interesting to find out.

I said earlier that she sounds like a manipulative woman, I do rather suspect that she may unfortunately be a liar also and that she may have been hitting you for some easy money to gain on the side and potentially citizenship in the US. As others have pointed out the sums she asked for don't really match up with the costs they should cost, not by s long way.

She stated that her half of the first month's rent was $950, is that to say before she joined the partner the partner was stumping up $1900 a month for the whole cost of the office! Or similar. This is an astounding amount for out there.

I would move quick and visit her and see this office she is renting, her family, etc if only to put your mind at rest.

[JayH]

Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?

Now you  & GQ  are channelling the most obtuse poster on the forum !
Pretty sure you knew what I was saying !! LoL!

[jone]

Now you  & GQ  are channelling the most obtuse poster on the forum !
Pretty sure you knew what I was saying !! LoL!

Not obtuse.   Just full of humor.   As in, what was the name of his other leg?

[JayH]

Thanks Jay

Yes, I did buy her flowers and some small gifts also. I am getting confirmation on the money thing from a couple of Ukrainian women on here so there does seem to be some disagreement on this. I am not a tightwad. I have spent money plenty of money in the past. And I have supported people for most of my life. But it I am getting lied to and used that is a problem.

A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.

But I have been forthright and honest throughout this entire process and I am treated her very well overall. Our relationship seemed to be delightful before. No real problems. But that was before when I was sending her cash for items that do not appear to be legitimate. Now it is not looking very good. I have not accused her in any way or got emotional or angry with her. I have been very calm and even.

I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.

I think I would get in a discussion about exactly what the money is needed for -- specifically. That is a crucial piece of information before deciding  about it -- and what she was think on this issue.Generalising answers without knowing more could be a big mistake .
On stated income -- depending on type of business -- cash income can be considerably higher .

I am not setting out to debate every point -- but -- things are never that black & white .

I can see you are on the negative side here -=- being calm is good -- and the best way to establish information that can help you. For me-- I have laid out a basis of why I would not jump to a conclusion based on what info you have disclosed here.