The Propaganda War

[Boethius]

Sure. It's an honest testimony because a) he used to be your neighbor; b) they're Ukrainian and they're in Ukraine; c) ordinary people don't lie in Ukraine; and most importantly; d) it's on YouTube.It must be real. 

The link was not from youtube.  We don't know if the inidviduals are Ukrainian or Russian.  All we know is, they are from the region, evident from their accents.  The manner in which they speak tells me it is not rehearsed/staged, but real.  It has nothing to do with them being from Ukraine.

Dang! Another NATO sighting/proclamation!!! Surprise, surprise. It's amazing how these guys are everywhere in a place they're not supposed to be in, errr wait...that didn't sound right, did it?

NATO has always stated it is monitoring the situation, and has since Russia started amassing troops on Ukraine's borders.  IIRC (I do, I am just being polite), Putin claimed there were no Russian forces in Crimea.  After the illegal annexation of the region, he admitted Russian troops had indeed been dispatched there. 


NATO has access to extensive sophisticated satellite imagery.  There is no need for them to have anyone on the ground to know what is going on in the region.

[lordtiberius]

Human intelligence is an important component in any intelligence gathering operation

[Photo Guy]

For the Putin apologists:

Here is what most of the world thinks about the conflict in Ukraine:

1- Russia and Putin are fomenting the rebellion in eastern Ukraine. There's LONG list of facts to come to that conclusion. When the Kremlin says they are not supplying the rebels with weapons and personnel/mercenaries, it comes across as a huge lie. This is how most of the world sees it. Putin can be accurately described as a 'liar'. Do we need to post a list of his lies?
2- Thousands of deaths could have been prevented, had Putin made good on his promise to help end the conflict. Most of the world sees it this way.
3- Comparing the situation in Iraq with the conflict in Ukraine is completely ridiculous. It's laughable. One of the few humorous ideas about Russia's war in Ukraine. 

There are two strategies for dealing with these tragic conflicts. A strategy of stopping the deaths or promoting the deaths for political and economic benefits. In Ukraine you have Putin who is interested in political and economic gains. For example, his humanitarian convoy was mostly empty, but now removing manufacturing equipment from Ukraine. The reason for the convoy. Putin also has a warped fantasy about establishing New Russia. So this fantasy is resulting in thousands of deaths, and apparently he does not care so much for non-Russian speakers or those who might be 'okay' with them. ...He's a chauvinist about his particular ethnicity.

The separatists do not even know what kind of Republics they want in Donetsk and Luhansk. What are they willing to die for? Some maudlin fantasy about 'fascists' in the West??? Okay, we know that vision of reality is FAR off. Go to Lviv or even Kharkiv and look at the horrors of fascism. For some reason those horrors are not posted on youtube. On the other hand, we see the blatant atrocities of the separatists in the east. Presidential elections are NOT allowed there, but they're against fascism. Oh. Okay. And they have lots of hostages. They killed  Lithuania’s Mykola Zelenec. Why? Was he a non-Russian speaker? Moscow's propaganda machine is losing. The truth becomes apparent. The lies become apparent. When a separatist steals a car in Luhansk, the locals see the truth. The war is just one huge BAD public relations campaign for Putin and Russia. Bad for Russia, because we see a lack of compassion, a lack of real humanitarian aid. The trucks were for removing equipment from Ukraine. Oh. Thanks!
The people who do not care how this conflict resolves are uncaring folks, in their own little world, enjoying their comfy sofa, and martini, taking their peace for granted.

[jone]

That's about as *intellectually lazy* as someone arguing ferociously with someone as though he's an authority over the subject, including speaking for thousands of people he doesn't know; over a *word* in his native language he didn't knew the definition of all along.

Then to make matters even sillier, once called on it, he immediately sends a PM to that someone admitting getting blown out to bits for that silliness to save face, but at the same time tries to maintain the persona on a public forum. Then, pulls a Ferguson and cries out seeking justice and pity...LMAO!

Do you know someone like that, jone?

Dude. You're probably the biggest wazoo I know. I am not surprised you're just a SoCal wannabe. We aren't all from Wisconsin, you know.

Looks like I touched a nerve.  After all, you're nothing but a transplant as well.  Moreover, you wrap yourself in the flag about how wonderful veterans are and all you can do is tell everyone that the fighting in Ukraine, of which you claim to be an expert, has nothing to do with young Russians and Ukrainians dying. 

The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home.

While I may be a SoCal wannabe, at least my children grew up here and are successful.  After all, isn't the next generation what it's all about?  That's what the people in Ukraine believe.  It is why they are fighting to move to a Western European society, similar to that which many of the countries of Eastern Europe have done before them.  Your ideas that had the country waited until elections there would have been no bloodshed is ridiculous armchair quarterbacking given the nature of the past four elections in Ukraine.  The (failed) Orange revolution happened because of a tainted election.  As Putin told Condi Rice, "Ukraine is ours".  Russia would never allow Ukraine to leave its sphere of influence without a fight. 

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.

From an overall perspective, which we all view, your arguments that the US is behind all of the activity in Ukraine and that the government is simply a puppet is categorically wrong.  The US is taking a 'hands off' approach to this crisis.  The only true thing that can be said of US involvement is that western society has shown other Eastern European countries that, with their own resources, they can create a much better standard of living for their people.  This is the beacon that attracts most of my friends in Ukraine.  GQ, how many people do you regularly confer with there?  I was just curious.

But this theory that the people actually want a Western style government doesn't agree with the 'spin' you want to create.  So, yes, intellectual laziness (or perhaps dishonesty). 

For the rest of us, we are engaged with a world where I spent my summer last year and have good friends and family.  Some of whom have family members that are serving and some that are dying.  I don't have too much good to say for someone who calls native Ukrainians disingenuous because their views don't coincide with this world of conspiracy you've created in your mind.

Now, I once again leave the forum to you for a couple of days as we have plans for the weekend. 

Good luck GQ.

You face me, you tower over me with your intellectual genius.  But you take on two women of Ukrainian descent and they will eat you alive.  As they should.

[sleepycat]

Hmmmmm.....interesting post.
Now that certainly explains a few things about our mercurial friend...

[Shadow]

The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.

[missAmeno]

You sure you don't want to make sure of this first? It's only a few posts upthread.

Yes, I am sure

He said, "GQ is right. You can Google this easily enough yourself"

No, he said: 'GQ is have no idea what he is talking about when he talks about Ukraine. He just talks because he likes to talk'

[Anotherkiwi]

...In Ukraine you have Putin who is interested in political and economic gains. For example, his humanitarian convoy was mostly empty, but now removing manufacturing equipment from Ukraine. The reason for the convoy...

Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

[missAmeno]

Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28799627
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/world/europe/some-russian-aid-trucks-are-nearly-empty-reporters-find.html

Earlier in news today came the following:

Infocenter spokesman for National Security Council Andrei Lysenko reported that Russians taking out on trucks that were in the "humanitarian convoy"radars from the factory "Topaz" and ammunition from Lugansk factory.

"According to current information, the trucks that entered in the territory (Ukraine) in the guise of "humanitarian convoy" loaded equipment from production factory "Topaz", which produces the most advanced radars such as "Kolchuga" and equipment from Lugansk plant, which produced ammunition for firearms, "- said Lysenko on brief today.

http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinski h_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459

[Anotherkiwi]

Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in.

Sorry - perhaps I should rephrase that as "every truck that the reporters inspected was full of supplies."

[missAmeno]

I edited and added to link to BBC video, you can see some trucks are almost empty.

BBC was not only one who reported this, many other journalists from number of countries reported same.

[Anotherkiwi]

What's REALLY interesting here is that the BBC report which I saw (on our main television news) appears to have been an edited version of the one linked by you - edited to remove the references to the "almost empty" trucks!

We obviously have a Russian Putin sympathiser determining what we see! 

[lordtiberius]

Looks like I touched a nerve.  After all, you're nothing but a transplant as well.  Moreover, you wrap yourself in the flag about how wonderful veterans are and all you can do is tell everyone that the fighting in Ukraine, of which you claim to be an expert, has nothing to do with young Russians and Ukrainians dying. 

The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home.

While I may be a SoCal wannabe, at least my children grew up here and are successful.  After all, isn't the next generation what it's all about?  That's what the people in Ukraine believe.  It is why they are fighting to move to a Western European society, similar to that which many of the countries of Eastern Europe have done before them.  Your ideas that had the country waited until elections there would have been no bloodshed is ridiculous armchair quarterbacking given the nature of the past four elections in Ukraine.  The (failed) Orange revolution happened because of a tainted election.  As Putin told Condi Rice, "Ukraine is ours".  Russia would never allow Ukraine to leave its sphere of influence without a fight. 

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.

From an overall perspective, which we all view, your arguments that the US is behind all of the activity in Ukraine and that the government is simply a puppet is categorically wrong.  The US is taking a 'hands off' approach to this crisis.  The only true thing that can be said of US involvement is that western society has shown other Eastern European countries that, with their own resources, they can create a much better standard of living for their people.  This is the beacon that attracts most of my friends in Ukraine.  GQ, how many people do you regularly confer with there?  I was just curious.

But this theory that the people actually want a Western style government doesn't agree with the 'spin' you want to create.  So, yes, intellectual laziness (or perhaps dishonesty). 

For the rest of us, we are engaged with a world where I spent my summer last year and have good friends and family.  Some of whom have family members that are serving and some that are dying.  I don't have too much good to say for someone who calls native Ukrainians disingenuous because their views don't coincide with this world of conspiracy you've created in your mind.

Now, I once again leave the forum to you for a couple of days as we have plans for the weekend. 

Good luck GQ.

You face me, you tower over me with your intellectual genius.  But you take on two women of Ukrainian descent and they will eat you alive.  As they should.

The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.

How exactly?  We do about 200 B in trade NOW with Ukraine and we have a trade surplus.  A coup we cheerled not engineered or underwrote has succeeded and we defend that revolution by sending them night vision googles and flak jackets?

Meanwhile our patron saint has KILLED 193 of your own citizens and you parrot his talking points BUT YET we are the strange ones.



this is a picture of a Filipina killed on MH 17.



This is a picture of a woman who picked over the loot to get some mascara from the dead victims.

Maybe Ukraine is not the only place, Putin considers is not a real country.

[lordtiberius]

Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

[sleepycat]

He just talks because he likes to talk'

+1

Although technically to be correct, the word 'talk' should be replaced with the phrase 'wear out a keyboard'.
BTW why hasn't our friend posted a response already, usually he is a lot quicker than that. Phone line down at his home?
Or maybe jone's post really did hit a raw nerve with our friend?

[lordtiberius]

Maybe it is because he has been routed by our own Judith.  Maybe he has been sanctioned for his incessant and annoying insults.  I know this, I wouldn't want to be routed by MissA

[Shadow]

Perhaps read the links of Boethius and you will know it has not just started.
The US is invested in Ukraine as much as Russia. You can determine how much or how little.

[lordtiberius]

Perhaps read the links of Boethius and you will know it has not just started.
The US is invested in Ukraine as much as Russia. You can determine how much or how little.

Can you cite those statistics or are you making that up as well?

[fathertime]

The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.

We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...but it is clear that we are going to try to encourage Ukraine to rebel (and die) as much as possible to further our own agenda.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...
Fathertime!

some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine

U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Ukraine (stock) was $840 million in 2012, up 21.7% from 2011.

It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.

[fathertime]

some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine

It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.

Thank you for again demonstration how foolish you can be.  There is much more to investment than that silly link.  I shouldn't expect you to get that fully, given your biases and singular viewpoint.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

Thank you for again demonstration how foolish you can be.  There is much more to investment than that silly link.  I shouldn't expect you to get that fully, given your biases and singular viewpoint.

Fathertime!

Show us the win win!

[fathertime]

Show us the win win!

I'd rather you continue to perpetuate that phrase a few dozen more times.  I continue to hold the two countries will come to an agreement. The remaining questions are when and at what cost. When this happens you will be angry as there will be less for you to demonize and blame Russia for, which has always been YOUR top priority rather than a real solution.

Fathertime!

Fathertime!

[Shadow]

some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine

It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.

That logically means there is also no involvment of Russia in Ukraine.

[missAmeno]

We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...but it is clear that we are going to try to encourage Ukraine to rebel (and die) as much as possible to further our own agenda.

Fathertime!

Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.