The big deal: Putin intends to dismantle the world order

[JayH]

What should be noted --is that there is widespread concern over any potential deal .
None of this is about Trump per se--or his style  --but it is about substance.


The Economist: Donald Trump seeks a grand bargain with Vladimir Putin

It is a terrible idea, The Economist says.

The details of Mr Trump's realignment are still vague and changeable. That is partly because of disagreements in his inner circle. Even as his ambassador to the UN offered "clear and strong condemnation" of "Russia's aggressive actions" in Ukraine, the president's bromance with Mr Putin was still smouldering. When an interviewer on Fox News put it to Mr Trump this week that Mr Putin is "a killer", he retorted: "There are a lot of killers. What, you think our country's so innocent?" For an American president to suggest that his own country is as murderous as Russia is unprecedented, wrong and a gift to Moscow's propagandists. And for Mr Trump to think that Mr Putin has much to offer America is a miscalculation not just of Russian power and interests, but also of the value of what America might have to give up in return.

 http://www.unian.info/world/1770432-the-economist-donald-trump-seeks-a-grand-bargain-with-vladimir-putin.html


Official: Flynn Discussed Sanctions With Russians Before Taking Office

The salient issue, critics say, is whether Flynn gave the Russian envoy any indication that the Trump administration would lift sanctions that were imposed to punish Russia for hacking and leaking emails during the U.S. presidential election, which intelligence officials say was meant to hurt Hillary Clinton and tip the election to Donald Trump.

The Russians did not respond as expected to the expulsion of 35 Russian diplomats from the U.S. as part of the sanctions. President Putin said he would not retaliate with expulsions of U.S. diplomats, and instead invited the children of diplomatic personnel in Russia to a Christmas and New Year's party.

As a candidate and as president-elect, President Trump repeatedly expressed doubt about whether Russia had interfered in the election, despite a unanimous "high confidence" assessment of the intelligence community. He later acknowledged Russian's role, but he has continued to praise Russian President Vladimir Putin.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/official-flynn-discussed-sanctions-russians-taking-office-n719271

[Anotherkiwi]

1. The executive order was TEMPORARY. 90-120 days.

No argument there.  However, as noted in my earlier post, it has caught many people who are actually US citizens but, because they have an extra passport from a country on that list, are now deemed unworthy of being allowed back into their own country!  And plenty of them were born in the USA! 

No one is being deprived of any previously issued visas to enter the US. They are 'on-hold' until proper vetting (re-vetting) is secured.

That's rubbish.  Your own Government has admitted that it has cancelled many visas which were legitimately issued.

2. Countries listed on the ban are countries without any functional government, with the exception of Iran - which was previously classified as sponsor of terrorists; that can be properly vetted. Iraq was last banned in January 2016. Even US citizens coming back from that country during that period was held-up and 'vetted'.

3. Even US citizens have been known to have joined ISIS and are part of the terrorist group. They too, should be vetted if they are coming from those listed regions. That's part of 'due process'.

Again - no argument there.

...Those who are NOT citizens or legal residents - foreigners - are NOT entitled to be included in the 'due process'.

I think you need to clarify this.  Are you talking about all foreigners from everywhere, or only those arriving from the seven specified countries?  Why should foreigners not be entitled to "due process?"

4. The majority of Americans support the ban. So the majority of Americans couldn't give a rat's arse what Kiwis, or anyone else, think.

Best you start getting use to it.

It’s interesting that a variety of polls give different answers.  Some say that approval for the ban is 55%; others are the reverse, with 51% DISAPPROVING.  From what I can see, the average of the polls is actually fairly evenly split.

However, for the sake of argument, let’s say you’re right about the majority approving the ban.  One big reason for this, as you are well aware, is that those people live in arguably the most insular country in the Western world, and simply have no concept of other countries having their own opinions on anything, let alone opinions that may differ from their own.  Unlike you, who came from another country and had to learn English from scratch, and has then ventured to Siberia to claim his Russian prize, many of those people have never travelled further than one or two states away from their own home, let alone leaving their own country.  They simply have no concept of passports or visas because they have never needed them, and never will.

For them, this whole discussion is simply a non-event.  They see Trump making good on his promise to keep Muslims out of America, and are happy to see that they were right to vote for him because that's what he said he would do.  The fact that the Courts have overturned the ban because they say it's illegal doesn't matter to them.

[GQBlues]

No argument there.  However, as noted in my earlier post, it has caught many people who are actually US citizens but, because they have an extra passport from a country on that list, are now deemed unworthy of being allowed back into their own country!  And plenty of them were born in the USA!

I've already mentioned (almost immediately after) that when the EO was issued that it lacked vital details for folks, both officials and the public, to determine what the procedural protocol is for all those who will be affected by this order.

Be that as it may, it wasn't that big a deal to have drawn up guidelines, which I believe came out within 24 hours, to facilitate these cases properly.

It was the Democrat obstructionists that made a huge deal of this, not because it wasn't deserving as mentioned, but for no other reason than political. Obama issued the very same order January 2016 against IRAQ, yet folks like you weren't heard from. The single biggest casualty of that was it confused those who were not only aware of the existence of US Code 1182 (you can include politicians/officials etc along with the general public - much less foreigners), but also lacked understanding of basic immigration law/rules.

That's rubbish.  Your own Government has admitted that it has cancelled many visas which were legitimately issued.

It's only rubbish for ignorant folks like yourself. People who have no understanding what it is they talk about always seem to be the same people who speaks the loudest.

Understand there's a very distinct difference (or even separation) between what a 'visa' is and what a 'status' is under the US Immigration rule. Think of a 'visa' as a key to open the door, whereas a 'status' aka I-94 (non-immigrant *status* i.e. fiancee, student, business, etc..) is what governs why a foreigner is admitted into the country. Status admission determines your cause of being here. It is also governed by rules within the program of your admittance (e.g. fiancee status have a 90-day period to fulfill its program condition - *you need to get married within the period.* Once married, the beneficiary needs to *adjust status* to get her conditional resident permit - towards legal residence - towards citizenship).

A visa is only used to enter our country. That's it. It has no function beyond that. Ever hear the question asked when you enter our country by passport control - "What's the purpose of your visit to the US?" They will check what the status is on their screen, while listening to what YOU say. *Step aside for a moment please* is what they'll tell you next if you screw around and say something different than what the *status code* imprinted on your passport.

Visas. 6-month visa, 1-yr visa, 3 or 5 year visa - Visa valid for the time duration specified. Single entry, Multi-entry, etc -number of times issued Visa can be used to enter the US.

By *temporarily* suspending visas, or even cancelling visas, it doesn't automatically cancels 'status admission'. It becomes suspended until the beneficiary undergoes further review of its application admission criteria aka * additional vetting* - which should only take according to the prescribed 90-120 days on the executive order thereafter. If the person is *clean*, visa re-issued.

So next time AK, you really need to spend some time understanding what the facts are, before classifying things you obviously do not understand, as *rubbish*. If you don't know, ask. You'll be a much better man for it.

For now, I think you need this better than I do..



Depending on intensity, a dozen times should suffice.

I think you need to clarify this.  Are you talking about all foreigners from everywhere, or only those arriving from the seven specified countries?  Why should foreigners not be entitled to "due process?"

Due Process is a Constitutional right afforded for both citizens or legal residents of a state. In our case, the US. Foreigners wishing to enter our country are not entitled to our country's *due process* and for obvious reasons. The 9th District court of San Francisco made this error in their ruling when they accepted the argument presented by the state Atty-General of Washington. Foreigners ARE NOT entitled our country's *due process*. Which is why this court is nullified by the Supreme Court 80% of the time. They make their ruling not based on the constitutional by-laws but rather by political argument.

Anyway, *due process* is especially applicable for US citizens/legal residents who happen to be coming from, or have travelled to/out of, the listed banned nations. Meaning, they will not have to wait the 90-120 days, but will rather be immediately 'vetted' and given *due process* prior to admission. Whereas, foreigners are not entitled to the same *due process*. Be aware of this, the first day this EO took effect, there were 190 people detained, and in less than a day, 190 people released.

It’s interesting that a variety of polls give different answers.  Some say that approval for the ban is 55%; others are the reverse, with 51% DISAPPROVING.  From what I can see, the average of the polls is actually fairly evenly split.

YUP. Just like it was during the election. This is exactly what our country is being assaulted with. This is the reason why I tell folks, notably you, in the very beginning that any attempt to discuss what's going on inside our country these recent times with a foreigner is futile. For no other reason than there is absolutely NO WAY for any of you to determine what really is going on here other than what garbage flies out of our media day in and out. Even for us natives sometimes, we need to be fairly careful in what 'news' we buy into.

This discussion is a perfect example. Have you read anything from our media that actually explained the things I'm explaining to you here? Likely not. The result is, you develop this silly, uninformed opinion about what is going on here believing you already are versed with the *facts*.

However, for the sake of argument, let’s say you’re right about the majority approving the ban.  One big reason for this, as you are well aware, is that those people live in arguably the most insular country in the Western world, and simply have no concept of other countries having their own opinions on anything, let alone opinions that may differ from their own.

Garbage. That's an overly used, ignorant babble people used to try and demean my fellow Americans. The US, arguably, is the biggest if not one of the biggest, collection of nationalities in the world. Insular is hardly the word to describe it's inhabitants. People like you often mistake Americans' indifference to insularity.

What I will easily agree to these days, is, Americans in large numbers, especially with our youths, are fast becoming indoctrinated by our media, learning institutions and our liberal politicians. They're being churned out like minions in the millions.

 

Unlike you, who came from another country and had to learn English from scratch, and has then ventured to Siberia to claim his Russian prize, many of those people have never travelled further than one or two states away from their own home, let alone leaving their own country.  They simply have no concept of passports or visas because they have never needed them, and never will.

Irrelevant. There's tens of millions like me here.

For them, this whole discussion is simply a non-event.  They see Trump making good on his promise to keep Muslims out of America, and are happy to see that they were right to vote for him because that's what he said he would do.  The fact that the Courts have overturned the ban because they say it's illegal doesn't matter to them.

Wrong. Read explanation above.

Typo note above. I noted the wrong year '2016' above...

[LiveFromUkraine]

Garbage. That's an overly used, ignorant babble people used to try and demean my fellow Americans. The US, arguably, is the biggest if not one of the biggest, collection of nationalities in the world. Insular is hardly the word to describe it's inhabitants. People like you often mistake Americans' indifference to insularity.

 
It's funny to see this reaction to American citizens not caring what foreigners say.  As if we shouldn't govern ourselves without listening to all other countries first and then make our decisions.  lol


Insular is the new racist card.

 

[alex330]

This is exactly what our country is being assaulted with. This is the reason why I tell folks, notably you, in the very beginning that any attempt to discuss what's going on inside our country these recent times with a foreigner is futile. For no other reason than there is absolutely NO WAY for any of you to determine what really is going on here other than what garbage flies out of our media day in and out. Even for us natives sometimes, we need to be fairly careful in what 'news' we buy into.

Garbage. That's an overly used, ignorant babble people used to try and demean my fellow Americans. The US, arguably, is the biggest if not one of the biggest, collection of nationalities in the world. Insular is hardly the word to describe it's inhabitants. People like you often mistake Americans' indifference to insularity.

Well said man. I work and interact with foreigners daily online. You cannot explain this to them, they have no idea what is going on.

[GQBlues]

Reply  --It was not a SECRET deal
They were not rejected--they were not accepted.
The long answer is the AUS quotas were full.It is not a new type deal-there is a long history of wider distribution of genuine refugees.
There is many other aspects to international relationships that can get complicated  --if I was being glib-- too hard for you and DJT to understand !!

They are well cared for on that island. Note --it is NOT Australian territory. The UN supervises and Australia pays for it.
A  large number of Iraqis have been settled successfully in Australia and from my own experience they adapt very well.

As to the nationalities still there-- I think a mix of countries. The US will do( & has been doing) their own vetting as to the genuine refugee status.

Yes they were *rejected*. They were classified as above quota for refugee resettlement. And no, they are not being taken care of well.

Yes. Your PM was publically and verbally body-slammed by THE Donald. Trying to peddle your UNHCR designated number of refugee to the US - UNDER the cloak of secrecy - with Obama is counter to our nation's best interest. Our Congress have the ultimate right to make that decision for the US.

In your immigration law, Australia sponsors a two-fold 'resettlement programs' - humanitarian and resettled refugees. Of your migrant annual quota from 1994-2016 of an average 140,000/yr, on average, only a scant 3% was designated for refugee resettlement. In short, your country don't really want to accept folks who doesn't possess skills and won't add to Aus's prosperity.

So when you start throwing stone from the glass pit, remember this silly fact fools like you seem to always miss. In 2015 alone, the US admitted 52,583 refugees, Australia 5,211 (10%). Canada came in second at 10,286 (20%).

Refugee crisis cause an addition to our yearly migration count. Whereas Australia deducts it from your set migration quota.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not taking a stab at your country's internal laws. Aussies should do what Aussies should do for the good of your country. After all, of all the US allies, IMO, the Aussies had been arguably the most consistent partner.

You may now continue making a fool of yourself.

[Boethius]

It was the Democrat obstructionists that made a huge deal of this, not because it wasn't deserving as mentioned, but for no other reason than political. Obama issued the very same order January 2016 against IRAQ, yet folks like you weren't heard from. The single biggest casualty of that was it confused those who were not only aware of the existence of US Code 1182 (you can include politicians/officials etc along with the general public - much less foreigners), but also lacked understanding of basic immigration law/rules.

Well, the appellate court also must not understand basic immigration law/rules.  However, others would dispute your characterization of the executive order being identical to the one Obama issued -


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/29/trumps-facile-claim-that-his-refugee-policy-is-similar-to-obama-in-2011/?utm_term=.db601d201845


http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/

[msmob]

So when you start throwing stone from the glass pit, remember this silly fact fools like you seem to always miss. In 2015 alone, the US admitted 52,583 refugees, Australia 5,211 (10%). Canada came in second at 10,286 (20%).

What sort of fool would compare numbers of refugees admitted as percentage - of the refugees admitted - rather than the percentage admitted as a percentage of the overall population of the nation ?

US 50K of 350 mil =  .0014 percent
AUS 5k out of 24.5 mil =  .02 percent
CAN 10k out of 35 mil  = .28 percent

Oh, 'yes' - the US sure had a BIG load of refugees ... a 'huge' problem ...

Sure, 'foreigners haven't got a clue' ....

[ML]

AUS 5k out of 24.5 mil =  .02 percent
CAN 10k out of 35 mil  = .28 percent

I made a pretty good living for several years being able to look at numbers and quickly determine their reasonableness . . . without even doing any calculations or attesting to their absolute correctness.

Can anyone else do the same ??

[Gator]

3/  Right now--Putin has already shown that he will test Trump. eg events in eastern Ukraine from the day they spoke.  Until Trump sits Putin back on his heels-- all of the rumours,all of the innuendo ,the speculation-- will be never ending.
Trump could kill it all dead in a few words-- and really spell it out with action  eg  Say something like this " As President I will see Ukraine retain sovereignty over all ( ALL) it's territory  and we will assist Ukraine with defensive weapons  so that Ukraine can defend itself."

Question - What would Trump and the US gain from doing this? 
Answer- Nothing. Four reasons:  1) Trump is armed conflict averse, 2) there are no American jobs involved, 3) Ukraine has not yet addressed its corruption,  and 4) Putin and Russia are European issues.   

It is clear you despise Putin, yet it is  not reasonable for you to criticize Trump just because he will not sit Putin back "on his heels" (your words). Trump has bigger fish to fry. 

Politics is the art of compromise -- and that means dealing with the existing system and winning people to the reasonableness of your cause.

Yes, a President should seek common ground.  How?  We are a divided nation.  Obama did not seek common ground and we became even more divided.  At the onset of Trump's tenure,  the Democrats  launched an obstructionist policy knowing they can not work with Trump, or they might lose even more Congressional seats in 2018.  Sad indeed.  And it hurts America. 

Perhaps nowhere is Trump’s dangerous approach to foreign policy more concerning than in his apparent desire to accommodate Vladimir Putin’s Russia.

There will be no significant new deals because the relationship between Russian economy and the US economy is weak.   Show me how this creates jobs.  Trump may appease Russia a little just to prevent Russia from allying with China. 

[JayH]

Yes, a President should seek common ground.  How?  We are a divided nation.  Obama did not seek common ground and we became even more divided.  At the onset of Trump's tenure,  the Democrats  launched an obstructionist policy knowing they can not work with Trump, or they might lose even more Congressional seats in 2018.  Sad indeed.  And it hurts America. 

Like it or not -the USofA is still part of a larger world .
The notion of building a big big big wall is really just a silly piece designed to pander to the morons who dont think.
How does that relate to creating jobs in the US ? The argument is so childish it is not worth  reciting.
I could tell you a lot of things I consider flawed in America-- but the blind would be busy screaming (as you did) with the "what would you knows" from afar etc!
I will give you one -- change this and you would generate jobs --- the US has a minimum wage that is about 1/3 that of other advanced economies ( eg Germany,France<Australia UK etc ) .
The concept is simple--  if people have money -they spend it ! That is particularly so for those at the bottom of the food chain who will spend 100% of what they earn-- thus putting the money back into the economy AND increasing general prosperity.
That is by way of contrast of those that suck money out of the system and horde it !
Putting decent laws in place that protect workers and entitlements is also necessary.

[GQBlues]

Well, the appellate court also must not understand basic immigration law/rules.  However, others would dispute your characterization of the executive order being identical to the one Obama issued -


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/29/trumps-facile-claim-that-his-refugee-policy-is-similar-to-obama-in-2011/?utm_term=.db601d201845


http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/

Identical? NO.  No one said they were identical? You're simply *playing with words* as a basic attorney mambo-jumbo Boethius. You should know better than that. Even your posted citations didn't use *your* definition. (Washington Post? Really?)

Similar? Yes. The very same order as it relates to Iraq? Most definitely.

Trump's EO was  much too broad for anyone to even remotely claim they were *identical* to Obama's order. His action was to 'stop' then-Iraqi refugee vetting process and create a more stringent vetting processing as a result of revelation that AQI (Al Qaeda in Iraq) posing as refugees were 'vetted', admitted and were already living in Kentucky.

As Janet Napolitano admitted to Susan Collins questioning during the Congressional hearing..

"Yep. Let me, if I might, answer your question two parts. First part, with respect to the 56, 57,000 who were resettled pursuant to the original resettlement program, they have all been REVETTED against all of the DHS databases, all of the NCTC (National Counter Terrorism Center) databases an the Dept. of Defense's biometric databases and so that work has now been done and focused..."

NOTE: *Resettled pursuant to the original resettlement program* // *revetted*

That was a 6-month significant slowdown in the admission of Iraqi refugees because of it. You can use the words 'stop' or 'significantly slowed down', and I'll use 'ban' - 'to create a 'more stringent vetting process'. 6-months to you, 90-120 days for me.

Donald Trump, during that time, was as much a private citizen as I am. Outside of high placed public officials, there are no other Americans subjected to daily intelligence briefings. Understandably, he very likely recalled an ABC NEWS report where it said,

"As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011, federal officials told ABC News – even for many who had heroically helped U.S. forces as interpreters and intelligence assets. One Iraqi who had aided American troops was assassinated before his refugee application could be processed, because of the immigration delays, two U.S. officials said. In 2011, fewer than 10,000 Iraqis were resettled as refugees in the U.S., half the number from the year before, State Department statistics show...."   

Full article here: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

[JayH]

Question - What would Trump and the US gain from doing this? 
Answer- Nothing. Four reasons:  1) Trump is armed conflict averse, 2) there are no American jobs involved, 3) Ukraine has not yet addressed its corruption,  and 4) Putin and Russia are European issues.   

It is clear you despise Putin, yet it is  not reasonable for you to criticize Trump just because he will not sit Putin back "on his heels" (your words). Trump has bigger fish to fry. 


Yes, a President should seek common ground.  How?  We are a divided nation.  Obama did not seek common ground and we became even more divided.  At the onset of Trump's tenure,  the Democrats  launched an obstructionist policy knowing they can not work with Trump, or they might lose even more Congressional seats in 2018.  Sad indeed.  And it hurts America. 

There will be no significant new deals because the relationship between Russian economy and the US economy is weak.   Show me how this creates jobs.  Trump may appease Russia a little just to prevent Russia from allying with China.

The relationship with China has been fine-- but --Trump is making noises--for what purpose ? Who can say.

Why deal with Russia ? In simple terms--to save the US and the rest of the world a much larger problem later.
Trump averse? It seems he is quite happy to threaten action against countries he sees as a problem eg iran
Ukrainian corruption as a reason to cast them out ----******** *********  *******  ******* etc
That is just an ignorant concept- they are trying .I already said that I would make serious serious internal reform as a condition of guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty.
BTW-- in a round about way -- a stable world  interacting thru trade etc-- is good for internal US prosperity --and job creation as it creates a much LARGER potential market.

As President of the US-- he became the leader of the "free" world and the cornerstone of many international agreements and treaties --- AND OBLIGATIONS !

America was great  when it was fulfilling those roles !!!!

[GQBlues]

What sort of fool would compare numbers of refugees admitted as percentage - of the refugees admitted - rather than the percentage admitted as a percentage of the overall population of the nation ?

US 50K of 350 mil =  .0014 percent
AUS 5k out of 24.5 mil =  .02 percent
CAN 10k out of 35 mil  = .28 percent

Oh, 'yes' - the US sure had a BIG load of refugees ... a 'huge' problem ...

Sure, 'foreigners haven't got a clue' ....

Duffy-

1. If all foreigners are like you who can't even do simple math, then I'll conclude, yes, foreigners haven't got a clue.
2. If all foreigners are like you who actually think refugee designation are simple percentage based determination, then yes, foreigners haven't got a clue.

Thank you for your continued display of ignorance. It is giving my fellow Americans on the board something to laugh at.

[JayH]

The conclusion in this article I agree with. Putin/Russia saw Obama administration as a soft touch  --it is not a trap Trump should fall into. Trump needs to take the advice from the professionals and listen to the bipartisan Congress and act accordingly-- and NOT from his own misguided ignorant stated position !
Trump can do all the agenda setting in dealing with Russia --surely he can figure that out?


It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian Invaders

Supporters of Ukraine are fearful that Trump will sell out Ukraine to his “bromance” partner Putin. I disagree. As an outsider, Trump is likely to do better for Ukraine than his predecessors, who feared calling out Putin as the true aggressor, did not fight back effectively against Putin’s mythologies, and refused to arm Ukraine with lethal weapons on the grounds that it might upset Putin. With a strong foreign policy cabinet, a Democratic opposition outraged by Russia, and strong support for Ukraine in his own party, an unencumbered Trump can ignore the “political correctness” of the mythology of separatists independent of Russia and the dictum of no lethal weapons for Ukraine. Trump has the cards, the most important of which is a Ukrainian army of 200,000 armed by the U.S. and hopefully a Ukraine making its way towards the prosperity increasingly out of reach of Putin’s Russia.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2017/02/10/its-time-for-trump-to-call-ukraines-pro-russian-rebels-what-they-are-russian-invaders/#10d9d346a9ef

[JayH]

For Gator and others  -- quoting anything Trump says as being a fact of intent  is a tricky business. The history is of contradictory comments( & tweets) it leaves most thinking people bewildered!
There is so much material out there now that may or may not be true-- but -- when it starts coming from different sources close to Trump it could be credible.

Trump paused a call with Putin to make an aide explain a nuclear arms treaty

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/9/14562014/trump-putin-call-new-start-what

In Call With Putin, Trump Denounced Obama-Era Nuclear Arms Treaty

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-putin-nuclear-treaty_us_589ca3f7e4b0c1284f2b1b48

[Gator]

The relationship with China has been fine

Fine!  It is far from fine in terms of American jobs - Trumps No. 1 Priority.

Why deal with Russia ? In simple terms--to save the US and the rest of the world a much larger problem later.

This is Europe's concern, not America's.  If Russia creates a larger problem, it will affect Europe far more than America.  (E. g., Russia and Iran destabilizing the Middle East and driving up the price of energy will not affect  America who is energy independent.)   

Trump averse? It seems he is quite happy to threaten action against countries he sees as a problem eg iran

Trump was against Iraq invasion.  He is against intervention.  However, he will defend America if attacked. 

Ukrainian corruption as a reason to cast them out ----******** *********  **  ******* etc
That is just an ignorant concept- they are trying .I already said that I would make serious serious internal reform as a condition of guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty.

This is "Show me first"  issue.

BTW-- in a round about way -- a stable world  interacting thru trade etc-- is good for internal US prosperity --and job creation as it creates a much LARGER potential market.

 

That's the theory, yet the middle class in America lost ground.

As President of the US-- he became the leader of the "free" world and the cornerstone of many international agreements and treaties --- AND OBLIGATIONS !

America was great  when it was fulfilling those roles !!!!

That ended with the 21st C.   It is too costly for America to do this alone.   So others must help.  And trade deals will be renegotiated.   Besides, most of the world resented America as the world's policeman. 

[JayH]

Fine!  It is far from fine in terms of American jobs - Trumps No. 1 Priority.

This is Europe's concern, not America's.  If Russia creates a larger problem, it will affect Europe far more than America.  (E. g., Russia and Iran destabilizing the Middle East and driving up the price of energy will not affect  America who is energy independent.)   




Trump was against Iraq invasion.  He is against intervention.  However, he will defend America if attacked. 


This is "Show me first"  issue.


 

That's the theory, yet the middle class in America lost ground.


That ended with the 21st C.   It is too costly for America to do this alone.   So others must help.  And trade deals will be renegotiated.   Besides, most of the world resented America as the world's policeman.

So much inconsistency in your thinking.

If any of what you said was accurate--why is Trump hell bent on provoking Iran?
Why is he hell bent on chasing Isis --after all --he is going to build a big big wall to keep all the bad dudes out of America !

So as it is-- Trump is happy to cause a refugee crisis for Europe to deal with -correct ? None of your problem?if that is the case--hide behind your big big wall  !!
Of course - the thousands of gun deaths in the US far exceeds any terrorist acts-- so what is he doing about them?
That would be nothing,zip,zero.zilch !

Really Gator-- & others who are making comments and thinking like-- you are seriously out of touch with reality. The degree of insular distorted thinking is breathtaking.

Trumpism  will fortunately be a passing phase-the concern is the degree of damage that can be done in the meantime.

Much of the emerging image of dysfunction has been painted by Trump's own staff

The calls are coming from inside the White House -- and they are going to reporters, who have been flooded with accounts of a frenetic and angry president, who bounces from political frustration to personal grudge -- often in his bathrobe, according to a New York Times account disputed by the White House -- in the space of a few minutes.

This is going to be harder than Donald Trump expected

On the campaign trail, President Donald Trump promised to take a blowtorch and pliers to the Washington political establishment.

But three weeks into his presidency, he has been repeatedly disarmed and frustrated by partisan opponents and the machinery of a government designed to check his power.


http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/11/politics/donald-trump-three-weeks-problems/index.html

[msmob]

1. If all foreigners are like you who can't even do simple math, then I'll conclude, yes, foreigners haven't got a clue.

Care to explain the flaw in my arithmetic ? ..or logic?

2. If all foreigners are like you who actually think refugee designation are simple percentage based determination, then yes, foreigners haven't got a clue.

Well there, let us see... YOU put the numbers into percentages and I addressed your simplicity by making the stat more relative...

Thank you for your continued display of ignorance. It is giving my fellow Americans on the board something to laugh at.

  I think smarter folks of any nationality will pick up on the ignorance and it's source....

Edited to add: ''My' nation hardly has a great record on it's obligations, either - lest you might try to suggest I'm just taking pops at the US..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/dunkirk-child-refugees-risk-sexual-violence?


''The fate of those stranded by the UK’s decision to limit taking child refugees from France ''

[fathertime]

Care to explain the flaw in my arithmetic ?

Please correct your earlier mathematics error and move on. 

So much inconsistency in your thinking.

If any of what you said was accurate--why is Trump hell bent on provoking Iran?
Why is he hell bent on chasing Isis --after all --he is going to build a big big wall to keep all the bad dudes out of America !

He is looking for popular/easy targets.  Iran is fairly unpopular here in the USA. Isis is very unpopular. 

Of course - the thousands of gun deaths in the US far exceeds any terrorist acts-- so what is he doing about them?
That would be nothing,zip,zero.zilch !

This is a fair point, another example would be drunk driving deaths which number in the 1000's every year...again far exceeds terrorist acts.  Guns and drunks are internal issues, and I get the feeling that the general feeling among republicans is that we are a 'great/exceptional people' and creating  or exaggerating the role of a boogeyman is better for our psyche!   


Fathertime! 

[msmob]

Please correct your earlier mathematics error and move on. 

Nice of you to say please..

But I don't want to move on - lest the point that the USA 'problem' with refugees is put in perspective - the numbers are tiny

[fathertime]

Nice of you to say please..

But I don't want to move on - lest the point that the USA 'problem' with refugees is put in perspective - the numbers are tiny

The stat you were giving was probably valid, yet somewhere along the way the number wound up fouled up here which has detracted from the point you were making after ML pointed it out. 


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

So much inconsistency in your thinking.

The "world order" is more complicated than at any time in the past 50+ years.  The world players and forces at work are heterogeneous, and they are undergoing constant change, i. e., dynamic.

Heterogeneous .....dynamic.....two words not found in Webster's definition of consistency.  So I assert you are merely confused.  Please refer to your university studies of fluid dynamics.       
 

If any of what you said was accurate--why is Trump hell bent on provoking Iran?

Who is provoking whom?  Who is firing missiles in direct disobedience to UN directives?

I admit confronting Iran is partly political because Obama considers Iran part of his legacy.  Nevertheless, it is important for the world to exercise caution towards Iran because of Iran's destabilization goals:  largest financier of terror in the world,  support and lead a Shia rebellion against the Sunni that could destabilize the Middle East oil supplies, control shipping lanes in the Persian Gulf, "Death to America," annihilate Israel, etc.  Iran was a contained pariah until Obama pardoned them and gave them billions.  Iran's proxies are busy today upsetting the world order. 

Why is he hell bent on chasing Isis!

This was a campaign issue because Hillary and Obama allowed their "JV team" to spread geographically, to seize financial assets to fund terror,  and to create havoc in many parts of the world.  Also Hillary and Obama refused to call them "radical Islamic terrorists."   

ISIS is slowly shrinking and will eventually be toast; however, the campaign will take longer than defeating Hitler.  I doubt Trump will send frontline troops to fight ISIS.   

--after all --he is going to build a big big wall to keep all the bad dudes out of America 

Silly boy.  You know this is not the purpose for the wall.  And I am not sure a full-length structural wall will be built because it is not the best alternative IMO. 

[fathertime]

 

Who is provoking whom?  Who is firing missiles in direct disobedience to UN directives?

Suddenly a big fanboy of the UN and their 'directives' when in an effort to forward an argument. Incredibly hypocritical!


Fathertime!

[Gator]

So as it is-- Trump is happy to cause a refugee crisis for Europe to deal with -correct ?

Why do you blame Trump? Trump did not compel Merkel and other European countries to open the doors and welcome refugees.   Listen to your mother - just because Johnny did something is not a reason for you to do the same.   Show me proof that some of the refugees will not be  terrorists.  One terrorist is one too many when the risk is involuntary and the consequences deadly.

BTW, let me know when Europe has taken as many immigrants from Syria as we have already received from south of our border.   

Germany supported the refugees more because of German demographics.   Due to illegal immigration, we do not have such a demographics problem.
 

Of course - the thousands of gun deaths in the US far exceeds any terrorist acts-- so what is he doing about them?

You do realize you are skipping around.   This is a sign of inconsistency.     

Hopefully Trump will accomplish more  in places such as Chicago than Obama did. 

Really Gator-- & others who are making comments and thinking like-- you are seriously out of touch with reality. The degree of insular distorted thinking is breathtaking.

Out of touch with reality?  Just because the current situation (i. e., reality) does not fit your vision for the world,  you write an alternative narrative to fit your vision.  Many in the world's diverse news media do such, and as long as you feed your mind from such troughs, you will continue to be surprised by what happens in the world.
 

Trumpism  will fortunately be a passing phase-the concern is the degree of damage that can be done in the meantime.

Nothing is constant in life except change.  It is splendid that RWD is blessed with having someone such as you with the clairvoyance  to predict the future changes.

 

But three weeks into his presidency, he has been repeatedly disarmed and frustrated by partisan opponents and the machinery of a government designed to check his power.

One EO had a RO upheld by a liberal court.  He has accomplished much in other arenas and you don't even see it. 

I believe America has thrived over the centuries in part because of our checks and balances.  It creates debate and reexamination.  It can even create bipartisan support, something that has become increasingly difficult for the past 10 years. 

Nevertheless, this one RO will not deter Trump.  His determination is one reason why he was elected.  And the Democrat obstructions may cause the further loss of Democrat Congressional seats in 2018.