Do FSU women consider marriage to be a contract or a covenant?

[BillyB]

You simply can not speak truthfully for someone else's beliefs.

What does marriage offer to a man? 

You tell msmobyone he can't speak truthfully for someone else's beliefs yet you ask the ladies what a marriage offers a man since you don't care for men's opinions.

A successfully married man has never been divorced.

Since you're not in a group of failures like the rest of us, how do you like being in the group of men  no women felt was worthy of making the ultimate commitment to?

A man who has been divorced clearly doesn't know his wife's needs, or is unable to meet a wife's needs.

You clearly don't know how divorce works. It's still legal for a man to divorce a woman if his needs aren't met too.

For the idiots out there:

ALL QUESTIONS DIRECTED TO MEN IN THIS THREAD ARE RHETORICAL.  THEIR PURPOSE IS TO GET YOU TO THINK.  IT IS NOT AN INVITATION FOR YOU TO RUN YOUR MOUTH.
It is better to appear an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.  The men who post responses in this thread have removed all doubt.

THIS TOPIC IS DIRECTED AT FSUW ONLY.  That is why I posted it here.

Don't beat up your keyboard over us. You are the only one throwing a fit and having a temper tantrum over a minor issue. Everybody else is calm. It's not the end of the world. Instead of calling everybody else a failure, figure out why you're the only one upset otherwise you're going to continue to live a lonely life.

[Slumba]

Bee Farmer, at the risk of incurring your wrath I will say this:

1. Marriage v1.0 , as your parents or grandparents conceived of it, no longer exists. It did not exist in USSR since 1930s either.  Now we have Marriage v2.0 which some believe is decidedly inferior.

2. I suggest you visit http://dalrock.wordpress.com for a contrarian but Christian view of marriage, courtship etc. Probably on first exposure much of the site and its commenters will annoy you or contradict your deeply cherished delusions.

[Faux Pas]

THIS TOPIC IS DIRECTED AT FSUW ONLY.  That is why I posted it here.

There you've had roughly 25 replies and only one of them has been an FSUW. Pitbull's response while certainly noteworthy and should be considered hardly represents all FSUW. I suspect even Pit might agree she has more of an edgy feminist outlook which isn't as prevalent in the region. Women seldom post here anymore. Keep that in mind for you future thread topics.

As jone noted you have no control over who responds to a thread you start or a question you ask. None, zip, nadda. To complain otherwise is pissing into the wind.

IIRC, you made a trip for a bee convention and decided to meet a woman or two while you were there then, decided the venture wasn't for you. So why are you back here?

Why do you have a need to pigeon hole a marriage into a contractual or covenant obligation? Are you adverse to a loving respectful relationship being forged by a man and a woman coming together to be equals and one? Does something about a woman being equal bother you? Marriages do not need or have to be either/or contractual or covenant

[jone]

There you've had roughly 25 replies and only one of them has been an FSUW. Pitbull's response while certainly noteworthy and should be considered hardly represents all FSUW. I suspect even Pit might agree she has more of an edgy feminist outlook which isn't as prevalent in the region. Women seldom post here anymore. Keep that in mind for you future thread topics.

As jone noted you have no control over who responds to a thread you start or a question you ask. None, zip, nadda. To complain otherwise is pissing into the wind.

IIRC, you made a trip for a bee convention and decided to meet a woman or two while you were there then, decided the venture wasn't for you. So why are you back here?

Why do you have a need to pigeon hole a marriage into a contractual or covenant obligation? Are you adverse to a loving respectful relationship being forged by a man and a woman coming together to be equals and one? Does something about a woman being equal bother you? Marriages do not need or have to be either/or contractual or covenant

I especially liked the part where he asked Pitbull about physical punishment for misbehaving.  Somehow, I can just see Bee Farmer, sitting there with a belt for his woman's backside.   

[Faux Pas]

I especially liked the part where he asked Pitbull about physical punishment for misbehaving.  Somehow, I can just see Bee Farmer, sitting there with a belt for his woman's backside.   

Actually I know some folks who live their lives and marriage much in the way BF apparently ascribes for himself. Where the woman is subservient to the man is all matters. Sure he gives her time to speak until he's had enough and tells her to shut up, and she does. The people to whom I refer also point to the low rate of divorce in such marriages. From the folks I know it appears to be partially brainwashing to partially possible mental/physical abuse for staying together. It's really strange.

[pitbull]

I especially liked the part where he asked Pitbull about physical punishment for misbehaving.  Somehow, I can just see Bee Farmer, sitting there with a belt for his woman's backside.   

I assume that question was a joke.

If serious, then my answer is "A dude who tries a physical punishment on me for whatever reason will end up in jail, with restraining order, divorced and taken to the cleaners" 

[jone]

I'm not at all sure it was a joke, based on his previous postings.  And there is not a member on this forum who has read you in the past that has any doubt that you would do exactly as you wrote.

 

[Faux Pas]

I assume that question was a joke.

If serious, then my answer is "A dude who tries a physical punishment on me for whatever reason will end up in jail, with restraining order, divorced and taken to the cleaners" 

Well he did ask you. Was there any particular reason you didn't answer 

Yes, he certainly seemed serious in his question and I have no doubt he was.

[Faux Pas]

I know of quite a few marriages that the husband is completely dominant. Most of those husbands think nothing of "keeping her in line". I don't think it's a very uncommon arrangement. Certainly many of them in this part of the country and elsewhere.   

[pitbull]

I know of quite a few marriages that the husband is completely dominant. Most of those husbands think nothing of "keeping her in line". I don't think it's a very uncommon arrangement. Certainly many of them in this part of the country and elsewhere.

Do you mean marriages where husbands are physically abusive as a means of "keeping her in line"? Which part of the country do you live in?

It certainly is not common among our friends and acquaintances and people I work with.

But certainly, domestic abuse is still a huge problem in the US, and even a bigger one in many other countries, including FSU.

[Muzh]

Do you mean marriages where husbands are physically abusive as a means of "keeping her in line"? Which part of the country do you live in?

It certainly is not common among our friends and acquaintances and people I work with.

But certainly, domestic abuse is still a huge problem in the US, and even a bigger one in many other countries, including FSU.

Pitbull, I don't think he meant that.


The truth is there are women in this country that are "bred" to behave in a submissive way, or are just born that way.


Not my cup of tea. 


Nevertheless, it does exist and them women seem very "happy" to be in a relationship like that.

[Faux Pas]

Do you mean marriages where husbands are physically abusive as a means of "keeping her in line"? Which part of the country do you live in?

It certainly is not common among our friends and acquaintances and people I work with.

But certainly, domestic abuse is still a huge problem in the US, and even a bigger one in many other countries, including FSU.

Physically, mentally, emotionally. Generally whatever it takes. The mentality is alive and well even in this day in age. I would suspect that it's more common than you know even in your circles. I live in the South but, it's pervasive all across the country metro's and rural. That is likely more of the extreme instances. Like Muzh stated there is many women raised to believe they are subservient to the husband. Quite a few religions teach it, too

[Gator]

Pitbull, I don't think he meant that.


The truth is there are women in this country that are "bred" to behave in a submissive way, or are just born that way.


Not my cup of tea. 


Nevertheless, it does exist and them women seem very "happy" to be in a relationship like that.

Maybe there are submissive FSUW wives.  I never met any, even in Russia at social gatherings.  For certain, among the small subset of FSUW who are actively interested in meeting Western men for the possibility of marriage, the last word I would use to describe  them  is "compliant." 

[msmobyone]

Just because other guys are being rude, doesn't mean that it is ok for you to be rude also.

Oh, 'I'm sorry'... you were the paragon of perfect netiguette'..

You were the FIRST guy to respond after I reminded the guys that this group is supposed to be for receiving responses from FSUW.

Not even correct ..

And 'the best' that you can offer is so woefully inadequate that it is worthless and of no useful value.  You simply can not speak truthfully for someone else's beliefs.

1/ Whilst it may not have 'suited' you - the explanation was succinct - based on experience...
2/ I believe I can - my Russian ex and I speak and we can even analyse and agree on our respective mistakes

A successfully married man has never been divorced.  A man who has been divorced clearly doesn't know his wife's needs, or is unable to meet a wife's needs.

Tosh... 'successful guys' - if you mean financially - might work away / too long hours and 'neglect family life'... The Wife might be bored or lonely

How can you be taken seriously?  If you won't take the time to read or follow directions, how can you expect anyone to believe you will pay enough attention to a wife to find out how she operates?

Judging by your 'reaction' ... remembering you're single and learning about FSUW ...I'll try not to take you, too seriously, either 

Why should I have to repeat what has already been stated?

Because, like it or not ...most of us enter threads trying to help ....

For the idiots out there:

ALL QUESTIONS DIRECTED TO MEN IN THIS THREAD ARE RHETORICAL.  THEIR PURPOSE IS TO GET YOU TO THINK.  IT IS NOT AN INVITATION FOR YOU TO RUN YOUR MOUTH.
It is better to appear an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.  The men who post responses in this thread have removed all doubt.

THIS TOPIC IS DIRECTED AT FSUW ONLY.  That is why I posted it here.

Yup, defo - short-tempered, a control freak and possibly a little unstable.

[mendeleyev]

Bee Farmer, that is a good question and there is an answer. For many marriages, it is neither, it is more of an "agreement." During the Soviet period, the state went to great lengths to remove the concept of God from society--the state needed to take the place of God in order to control the populace. The focus of a civil ceremony was around the concept that marriage was good for maintaining order in society and families were a structure to help create the ideal Communist state.

Thus, even today in the Russian and Ukrainian wedding ceremonies, there are no "vows" like the ones spoken in the West. The couple is asked if they have mutually agreed to be married of their own free wills, and if they have agreed to take each other as husband and wife.

Part of this tradition also extends historically to differences between the Orthodox East and the Roman Catholic/Protestant West. In the Western theology of marriage, the couple is seen as the ministers, while the priest/pastor is the main witness before God. Thus they enter into a covenant.

The Orthodox theology of marriage is not the same. In Orthodoxy, marriage is a sacrament. That means that God is the central figure in a marriage. The priest is God's representative, and the couple stands quietly to submit to God's ideal for marriage and to ask for guidance in both good and bad times. That is why the two "witnesses" in an Orthodox ceremony must also be believers, and why the couple is "crowned" in the ceremony.

As Father Stephen Freeman writes in his excellent article on No Wedding Vows, "The power of God comes upon the lives of a man and a woman and unites them in one mind and weds them in one flesh. The sacrament is a union, not a contract." I'd also encourage anyone interested to read my article on Russian wedding customs in the Mendeleyev Journal.


To summarize:

- A civil ceremony is the only legal ceremony in the East. For most readers that will be ZAGS in Russia or RAGS in Ukraine.

- Many couples have a church ceremony after the civil/legal ceremony because it is considered to be a sacrament. That defines something ordained by God, and freely submitted to by believers.

- In the minds of some FSU folk, it is somewhat easy to cast aside a civil ceremony, but more difficult to discard what took place Sacramentally. It is not uncommon to learn of FSU couples who are not faithful Orthodox to first wed in a civil ceremony, and then sometime later when the marriage became more "serious" to them, they met with a priest and requested a church ceremony. They go thru confession/repentance for "living in sin" and then spiritual counseling in order to have a sacramental wedding.

- It is not uncommon to find that couples wed in church tend to think that they must work thru issues and difficult times before moving on to someone else. That does not mean that there are no Orthodox divorces, because there are unfortunately. However, it is a serious issue because a divorced person is barred from the sacrament of communion (a very important part of believing life) if a priest has not counseled with a divorced person first, and then received permission from the regional Bishop.

- Some will disagree, but I believe that a shared faith is important to holding a marriage together. It is not the only tie that binds, but it is an important one.

[mendeleyev]

Mendeleyev's practical advice on extending the life of a marriage:

- I roundly reject the equal, or 50-50, view of marriage. Instead, I make feeble attempts to accomplish a 100-100 view of marriage. I am 100% responsible, as is she.

- A woman, and her opinions and feelings, must be treated with respect. Her opinion is just as important as mine.

- Something I learned from my father: She is more important than me. If I attempt to place her first, as of greater importance, then routinely she responds by making me more important in her view. It is a mutual thing, but it starts with me. Growing up we were taught the principles behind the story of Sir Walter Raleigh and the Queen. He took off his coat and threw it over a muddy hole so that the Queen could step over it without getting her feet wet. I have not thrown a coat over a muddy hole yet, but I do open doors, pull out her seat at the table, take her coat, etc. Without fail I often find her doing some of those same things for me.

- Life is much smoother when a wife is consulted. She is actually a very smart, wise, person so why not use her input? A wise man once said that there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.

- When a woman is upset, try the phrase "I'm sorry. Please help me understand how you feel." That generally softens the mood to where constructive dialogue can be achieved. Usually she just wants to be heard, and considered.

- There is no place for violence, or berating, in a marriage.

- She receives an average of at least 3 compliments every day. Only 1 can be about her appearance. The other two are generally about her work, her value to our family, something she has done for someone else, etc. That was a concept I learned from my father, and it works. I find that it also seems to generate compliments from her (without any expectation on my part).

- Celebrate her achievements. It is easy to tell her that she is the most beautiful woman on the planet (and that is truthful), but it is more important to notice and acknowledge her life accomplishments. When it comes to her work as a professional artist I try to be her biggest fan. She is my van Gogh.

Can you have a perfect marriage? No, I don't either. But, by making use of the principles above I have found that life is much smoother and more fun together.

[BillyB]

- A woman, and her opinions and feelings, must be treated with respect. Her opinion is just as important as mine.

- Something I learned from my father: She is more important than me. If I attempt to place her first, as of greater importance, then routinely she responds by making me more important in her view. It is a mutual thing, but it starts with me.

Good stuff Mendy. In modern times many people reject the word "submit" when it comes to marriage. been taken out of wedding vows. It has become a bad word but it's probably one of the most misunderstood words in the Bible. When husband and wife both submit to each other, it's a good thing for marriage. Unfortunately most people think submitting is about allowing oneself to be a slave instead of an act of love and selflessness.

[jone]

Good stuff Mendy. In modern times many people reject the word "submit" when it comes to marriage. been taken out of wedding vows. It has become a bad word but it's probably one of the most misunderstood words in the Bible. When husband and wife both submit to each other, it's a good thing for marriage. Unfortunately most people think submitting is about allowing oneself to be a slave instead of an act of love and selflessness.

You mean no physical punishment for misbehaving?

[BillyB]

You mean no physical punishment for misbehaving?

Physical punishment is the preferred method of some men in settling disagreements with their wife.


My wife  gets 95% of what she asks for. One reason is because she doesn't ask for a lot and the other reason is because I'm easy going. The majority of our spending takes care of her more than I. There are a few times I tell her we shouldn't buy something that she wants and she will respect my decision although she will be unhappy, it doesn't last long.


When husband and wife can't agree on something, it shouldn't turn physical. There will always be disagreements but their needs to be a final answer. A woman usually marries an older man hoping he is wiser. If a woman in my life demands she have her way, I would tell her to get hooked up with a man child that will be her "yes" man and that she shouldn't have picked me. My wife is happy with me agreeing with her on 95% of her desires but she better give me the other 5% without a fight.

[Bee Farmer]

Well, I found that married men live on average 17 years longer than single men. This link offers a very good explanation of why.

http://healthresearchfunding.org/married-men-live-longer-single-men/

Studies that excerpt just a slice of people’s lives are not the best barometers of the likely length of those lives. More convincing evidence comes from investigations that follow people throughout the course of their lives. Probably the longest-running examination of longevity is the Terman Life-Cycle Study that began in 1921. It was a relatively small study, with 1,528 select eleven-year olds at the outset. That said, the results are noteworthy. Two groups were tied for first place in the longevity sweepstakes. One was composed of people who were consistently married. Did they live longer because they got married? No. People who got married and then divorced did not live as long, regardless of whether they remarried. Does that mean you need to get married and stay married to have the best chances of living a long life?

Time to introduce the other group who lived the longest: People who stayed single for life.
http://www.unmarried.org/single-vs-married-who-really-lives-longer/

Children are better off when raised in marriage (good marriage that is).

I agree with you completely.

All these things you've described cost waaaay more than you think. Especially the whole surrogate route. I pay $20/hour for babysitter only. This is $50K per year only for a babysitter. Add everything else - if you Donald Trump, good for you 

If you are in a financial position to afford a surrogate, a surrogate would be cheaper than a marriage and divorce. That is the point I was making.

You see, you are talking about an "ideal" scenario from the point of view of Amish culture. I think you might be better off marrying an Amish girl.

I don't know that I would consider Amish to be an ideal.  I was just saying that there are some good things, but I would not say it is ideal.
For example, if a girl who is raised Amish wants to marry a non-Amish man, her Amish family and friends and community will disown her and treat her as though she were dead.  (They will not speak to her.  If she passes them on the street, they will ignore her and will not acknowledge she exists.)  Very few Amish girls will marry a non-Amish guy for this reason.  They don't want to lose their family.

Children and parents - a covenant type of relationship. You stand by your children and love them unconditionally, fight for them till the end, no matter what.

Do you believe a marriage being a contract, and children a covenant, to be cultural or biological?
Childbirth, breastfeeding, etc. increases levels of the hormone oxytocin in the woman.  This hormone is responsible for pair bonding.  It is sometimes called the 'love hormone'.
Having sex with someone also produces oxytocin.  However, in women, the levels of oxytocin are reduced the more sexual partners they have.  The more sexual partners they have had, the more difficult it is for the woman to pair bond with the man.

This is also supported by studies that look at the chances of a successful marriage, happiness, etc.  The more sexual partners a woman has had, the less likely she will have a marriage that lasts.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2003/pdf/Bookofcharts.pdf

It is also interesting to note that progesterone (used in birth control pills) inhibits the production of oxytocin.

I believe ML made a comment once that guys are attracted to the youth and beauty of FSU women, and the FSU women are attracted to the economic opportunities the WM offers.  But over time, real love is possible.
This would suggest that his experiences with FSU women show they have difficulty pair bonding.

I assume that question was a joke.

If serious, then my answer is "A dude who tries a physical punishment on me for whatever reason will end up in jail, with restraining order, divorced and taken to the cleaners"

Actually, my question alluded to some FSU women having the mentality that if a man beats her, it means he loves her.

http://dhsprogram.com/topics/gender-Corner/ukraine-dhs-key-indicators.cfm says that 11% of Ukrainian men say that it is justifiable to beat a woman for one of these things: burning food, arguing with him, going out without telling him, neglecting children, or refusing to have sex with him.

According to Women Against Violence Europe (WAVE), a formal network of women’s NGOs in Europe, 27% of Ukrainian women have experienced violence in childhood and 33% of women since adulthood, according to a survey published in 2010.
http://www.newsweek.com/crisis-ukraine-leads-spike-domestic-violence-324441

That would suggest that the men who beat women beat 3 women. (11% of men, and 33% of women)
When 1/3 of women in a society have experienced domestic violence, that suggests that domestic violence is accepted by society.  That is why I asked about men beating women.  While the women would prefer not to be beaten (and 3% of Ukrainian women said beatings were justifiable) they may silently accept it as something that is a regular part of life.

In my personal opinion, if a woman is that troublesome that she needs beaten...why would you ever stay involved with her to begin with?  If some guy didn't know she was so troublesome, he clearly never got to know her before getting married.

Do you mean marriages where husbands are physically abusive as a means of "keeping her in line"? Which part of the country do you live in?

Domestic violence does happen.  Used to, police looked the other way.  Now they are starting to get more involved.  You tend to find it more in areas of low class people, and often uneducated.  (Low class does not refer to finances.  You can find wealthy people with no class.)

In the Bible, it says that wives are to submit to their husbands.  Many uneducated people (and you will find them on this forum) do not understand what the word 'submit' means.
They believe it means to allow someone to dominate you in any way someone wants to dominate you.  This is NOT what submit means, or to be submissive.

An employee submits to their supervisor's authority.  That doesn't mean the supervisor is allowed to beat the employee, or degrade them.  It just means that if the supervisor gives them a reasonable request, they will do the task.

Having a wife submit to the husband simply means that the husband is the head, and the wife is the neck supporting the husband.  The wife allows her husband to make decisions, and she will support his decisions.  If both the husband and wife tried to be the head making the decisions, a power struggle would occur.
The Bible instruction for a wife to submit to her husband creates harmony.  It does not create an abusive situation.

People are uneducated and low class who think the Bible encourages husbands to abuse their wives because of the instruction for wives to submit to their husbands.  It does NOT mean a wife is supposed to allow herself to be abused, or to be a doormat.

[mendeleyev]

You mean no physical punishment for misbehaving?

Usually I beg for forgiveness so that she doesn't sic the dog on me.   

[Bee Farmer]

Bee Farmer,

You have no rights to control over who responds to your posts.  You are not the owner of this forum, or, for that matter, I hope, not a moderator.

Very true jone.  However, as a guy, I do believe I have a responsibility to publicly expose guys who are being disrespectful towards women.

I also do have a right to ask questions of FSU women, and I have a reasonable expectation that other men will be respectful and stay out of the conversation when I pose the question in a forum group intended for asking questions to the FSU women.

Yet, by your own admission, you have never found a woman willing to put up with you that you deem worthy.  That, coupled with your age, speaks volumes.

Actually, it doesn't.  You assume it speaks more than it does because you assume I have the same desire for marriage that others do.  You are making an invalid inference, and because of that, you will always get an incorrect conclusion.

While I would hope that you find happiness within your own narrow view of what constitutes a marriage, understand that many here have found happiness outside the confines of your rigid views.

I do not understand you.  What I do understand, is that by their own admission, almost all the men here have found unhappiness in marriage.  (which is why they got divorced)

You tell msmobyone he can't speak truthfully for someone else's beliefs yet you ask the ladies what a marriage offers a man since you don't care for men's opinions.

Billy, your post makes no sense.  It is quite clear that you were unable to comprehend the question I posed.  Perhaps you would be better off to try listening more if you do not understand something.

Since you're not in a group of failures like the rest of us, how do you like being in the group of men  no women felt was worthy of making the ultimate commitment to?

Again, you comment makes no sense.  You make an invalid inference, which means you will have an incorrect conclusion.

You assume that I have pursued relationships with the same quality of women that other guys here pursued.  You also assume that I would have married any woman who was willing to have me. 

You clearly don't know how divorce works. It's still legal for a man to divorce a woman if his needs aren't met too.

And you clearly don't understand what marriage is.  A marriage is a promise to put your spouse's needs before your own.  Divorce happens when you put your own needs before your spouse.

Instead of calling everybody else a failure, figure out why you're the only one upset otherwise you're going to continue to live a lonely life.

Once again, you show your ignorance by making invalid inference and incorrect conclusions.

You assume that living alone means someone is lonely.  I actually enjoy living alone.  If I didn't enjoy being alone, I would probably marry the first thing that would have me, and then I would likely end up divorced because my priorities were in the wrong place and I would have failed at marriage.

Bee Farmer, at the risk of incurring your wrath I will say this:

1. Marriage v1.0 , as your parents or grandparents conceived of it, no longer exists. It did not exist in USSR since 1930s either.  Now we have Marriage v2.0 which some believe is decidedly inferior.

Slumba, you are a liar.  Marriage as my parents or grandparents conceived of it, STILL EXISTS. 
The reason you don't want to admit that it exists is because you failed to achieve it, and admitting that it exists would force you to change your paradigm and admit that you failed.  It is easier for you to claim that it does not exist, rather than admitting your own personal failure.

If people approach relationships the way our parents or grandparents approached relationships, they can still find marriages like parents and grandparents had.

How many people approach marriage with their only sexual partner being the person they marry?  (25% of women, and 17% of men claim their only sexual partner is the person they married)  Studies say if your only sexual partner is the person you married, your marriage success rate is anywhere from 80%-95%.

But what is the average number of sexual partners people have these days?  Kinsey says it is 7 partners for men, and women average 4 sexual partners.  (Studies in the UK show that if women think they are hooked to a lie detector, their numbers match the males numbers, suggesting that women understate the number of sexual partners they have had if they think they can get away with it.)

A woman who has had 4 sexual partners has a 40% chance at a stable marriage.  A woman with 6 partners has a 30% chance.

Match.com's study of Singles in America 2015 found that single women reported 8 sexual partners, and single men reported 15 partners.
That puts them at over a 70% chance of divorce rate.

If 25% of women have an 80%-95% marriage success rate...
And 75% of women (the single ones we encounter) have a <30% success rate...
It's easy to believe that marriages like parents and grandparents had don't exist.  It's easy to fall into a relationship with the 75% of women with the 70% chance of divorce.
But it's a lie to say that the marriages like parents and grandparents had don't exist.

There you've had roughly 25 replies and only one of them has been an FSUW. Pitbull's response while certainly noteworthy and should be considered hardly represents all FSUW. I suspect even Pit might agree she has more of an edgy feminist outlook which isn't as prevalent in the region. Women seldom post here anymore. Keep that in mind for you future thread topics.

I was aware that few FSU women post here these days.  I posted in this thread with that understanding, knowing that it may take 6 months or a year to get very many responses.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of disrespectful guys who want to clutter up the thread and sidetrack the conversation.  (I'm surprised moderators haven't deleted all the comments that are not from FSU women, so that the thread can stay focused.)

IIRC, you made a trip for a bee convention and decided to meet a woman or two while you were there then, decided the venture wasn't for you. So why are you back here?

Like so many others, you make invalid assumptions, and end up with incorrect conclusions.  You're wrong.

Why do you have a need to pigeon hole a marriage into a contractual or covenant obligation?

Well, marriage has to have some kind of definition...

Are you adverse to a loving respectful relationship being forged by a man and a woman coming together to be equals and one?

I have no problem with loving, respectful relationships between men and women.  But not all relationships are marriage.  And I don't believe a man and woman in a relationship are equal.  I believe they are complementary.  Both have strengths and weaknesses, and they become stronger together...but they are not equal.
(Did you know that women have more neural connectors between the sides of their brains than men do?  Less connectors enable men to concentrate intently on one task easier, and more connectors enable women to multi-task easier.  They are not equal, but they are complementary - both have pros and cons.)

Marriages do not need or have to be either/or contractual or covenant

If it's not contractual or a covenant, it can't be a marriage.

I especially liked the part where he asked Pitbull about physical punishment for misbehaving.  Somehow, I can just see Bee Farmer, sitting there with a belt for his woman's backside.

jone, you only reveal an insight into the contents of your heart.  It's not a pretty picture.

Actually I know some folks who live their lives and marriage much in the way BF apparently ascribes for himself. Where the woman is subservient to the man is all matters. Sure he gives her time to speak until he's had enough and tells her to shut up, and she does. The people to whom I refer also point to the low rate of divorce in such marriages. From the folks I know it appears to be partially brainwashing to partially possible mental/physical abuse for staying together. It's really strange.

More making assumptions.  That's not the kind of relationship I would aspire to have. 
But you reveal an insight into your heart, by making that kind of assumption.  And it's not a pretty picture.

I know of quite a few marriages that the husband is completely dominant. Most of those husbands think nothing of "keeping her in line". I don't think it's a very uncommon arrangement. Certainly many of them in this part of the country and elsewhere.

Birds of a feather, flock together.

Maybe there are submissive FSUW wives.  I never met any, even in Russia at social gatherings.  For certain, among the small subset of FSUW who are actively interested in meeting Western men for the possibility of marriage, the last word I would use to describe  them  is "compliant." 

You must have had your eyes closed Gator.

Ask a FSU girl out on a date, and tell her where you intend to take her.  Does she submit, and allow you to decide where you want to go?  Or does she throw a fit and try to dictate everything?

I'll bet you can find at least a few who will submit.

Quote from: Bee Farmer on April 06, 2016, 09:44:44 AM

    You were the FIRST guy to respond after I reminded the guys that this group is supposed to be for receiving responses from FSUW.


Not even correct ..

Well, msmoby, the facts show that you are a liar, because that is correct.  Read my post #10.  In post #12, you were the first guy to post after I pointed out that this was supposed to be questions for FSU women (and not questions to the guys).

1/ Whilst it may not have 'suited' you - the explanation was succinct - based on experience...

Unless you are a FSUW, your personal experience is woefully inadequate and worthless to me.

It's sad and unfortunate that so many people fall victims to their own egos.  They believe that if they are accomplished or some kind of an expert in one area, that makes them an expert in all things.

Quote from: Bee Farmer on April 06, 2016, 09:44:44 AM

    A successfully married man has never been divorced.  A man who has been divorced clearly doesn't know his wife's needs, or is unable to meet a wife's needs.


Tosh... 'successful guys' - if you mean financially - might work away / too long hours and 'neglect family life'... The Wife might be bored or lonely

I said nothing about 'successful guys.'  My words were successfully married men.  The 'successfully' referred only to the marriage.

The fact that you can't understand the difference between a successful marriage and financial success shows an insight into your heart...and it's not a pretty picture.

Quote from: Bee Farmer on April 06, 2016, 09:44:44 AM

    Why should I have to repeat what has already been stated?


Because, like it or not ...most of us enter threads trying to help ....

How incredibly arrogant and stupid to think you can help in something where you are incapable and unqualified.  Would you try to perform heart surgery or a lobotomy yourself if someone wanted help...or would you get out of their way and help them to someone who was capable and qualified?

As Father Stephen Freeman writes in his excellent article on No Wedding Vows, "The power of God comes upon the lives of a man and a woman and unites them in one mind and weds them in one flesh. The sacrament is a union, not a contract."

Mendy, it appears an Orthodox marriage would be a covenant.  Yes, marriage ceremony is a sacrament...but I was looking at it more of what happens after you go home and start living life together.

- Some will disagree, but I believe that a shared faith is important to holding a marriage together. It is not the only tie that binds, but it is an important one.

Water and oil don't mix.

Some wedding ceremonies also feature tying their hands together during the marriage...ie, 'tying the knot.'  I know a Mormon guy whose hands were tied with his wife's when they got married - I think he said they call it a 'sealing' and not a wedding.

- Something I learned from my father: She is more important than me.

In a covenant, your focus is on serving your partner.
In a contract, you are focused on what your partner will do for you.

If I attempt to place her first, as of greater importance, then routinely she responds by making me more important in her view. It is a mutual thing, but it starts with me.

There is also an old saying, "A man will treat his wife like a queen, if she puts him on the throne."

- When a woman is upset, try the phrase "I'm sorry.

And the other 2 really important words, "Thank you."

[msmobyone]

Very true jone.  However, as a guy, I do believe I have a responsibility to publicly expose guys who are being disrespectful towards women.

Pomposity, reaches new levels..

I also do have a right to ask questions of FSU women, and I have a reasonable expectation that other men will be respectful and stay out of the conversation when I pose the question in a forum group intended for asking questions to the FSU women.

If you bothered to check.. 'a lot'' of posters' contributions make'no sense' to you .... Noting the positive correlation ..?

Well, msmoby, the facts show that you are a liar, because that is correct.  Read my post #10.  In post #12, you were the first guy to post after I pointed out that this was supposed to be questions for FSU women (and not questions to the guys).

Did you have a sex change ..?

Unless you are a FSUW, your personal experience is woefully inadequate and worthless to me.

I 'missed' the part where you attempted to tear a new xxxxhole' in Mendy - for 'daring' to respond ...as I pointed out HE hasn't experienced the end of a marriage to a FSUW woman...   You really DO come across as a control freak.

It's sad and unfortunate that so many people fall victims to their own egos. 

Indeed, that you're missing any irony in your own words ..amuses .

I'll stop, now .. this is 'your thread' 

[BC]

My info is quite dated, but maybe still relevant.

Typical civil marriage in RU, ZAGS etc is a great party and decent 'binding' for the future.  Divorce costs (back then) were a pittance and did not present a great hurdle.

A few years after our marriage in RU we followed up with a formal Orthodox ceremony which had the effect of 'cementing' the relationship. (after all not easily 'undone')

I find your question a bit 'loaded' because the answer is probably quite mixed in the end.

Either your relationship will work out or not over time..  that's the bottom line.

If you are looking for guarantees of love and devotion, pick a puppy instead.

[mendeleyev]

I do not consider my marriage to be a covenant, in fact I'd be ashamed if it were. It is a sacrament.

Some wedding ceremonies also feature tying their hands together during the marriage...ie, 'tying the knot.'  I know a Mormon guy whose hands were tied with his wife's when they got married - I think he said they call it a 'sealing' and not a wedding.

Tying hands together is a centuries old part of Slavic wedding traditions and was brought to America by European immigrants. For example, even today in many FSU villages once a couple agrees to marry it has been a historic custom for the parents to tie the hands together and parade the couple from house to house, and farm to farm, with the announcement that the two will marry.

Tying the knot is a centuries old tradition also in the Orthodox ceremony. You can read about it in the thread on marriages here, or on my article that was previously linked.

In the video attached you can see the couple being led into the church. At about the 1:15 mark they approach a colourful towel that is on the floor. Traditionally thru the centuries that towel has been made by both mothers. It represents the efforts of two families coming together. Notice how the couple steps onto the towel together--a symbol of two families coming together to create a new family, standing on the foundations of their forebearers.

At the 5:07 mark you can see that the priest has tied these hands together, announcing that the two have become one. They are now officially married in the eyes of God.

Then, as they exit the church at the 5:45 mark you can see that they are holding these towels--these will be used again when their future babies are baptized.





For those interested, the first part of the ceremony is the betrothal, what we call the "engagement." Unlike the Western tradition of engagements for a long period prior to the wedding, the engagement in Eastern tradition is a prelude to the wedding ceremony. When they are given rings at the 3:20 mark, they are still in the engagement process. They are not married until just prior to the knot being tied. (This is one clue on why I believe that giving "engagement rings" in this culture is without relevance--it has no point of reference other than being a nice piece of jewelry.)