Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[jone]

He has two convenient things going for him:  1.  He lives on an island continent, far away from Russia and 2.  He doesn't use Russia's natural gas.  (I hear he has plenty of his own.)

That makes it pretty easy and convenient for him to be vocal.

[JayH]

It seems unusual that amongst all the western leaders, it is the Australian PM who appears to be the most vocal and doing much of the sabre rattling. A convenient distraction from his recent political woes perhaps?

 To me some things go beyond local political views-this is one of them.
Watching Americans on forum get confused on that point is appalling. There is a time to look at overall balance-- and in Australia's case -- the needle hardly moves left or right on international issues.
 I think Abbot has got it absolutely correct--he is saying what others want to say. Throughout the Ukrainian crisis the public statements of Abbot and government have been on the mark.
While it is true to say Australia is out of the way-- events of the last day show we are not remote or immune from the action of terrorists--or state promoted terrorism.
Australia is the only country that has supported the US in all it's wars of the last 100 years or so-- and taken action in it's own region
over terrorist activities that reach beyond our immediate area.

Added later-- Abbot again in media briefingnow  repeats stongest condemnation of those who fired missile,those who supplied it,those who support them--ie Russia and Putin. he also slammed Putins ridiculous blaming of Ukraine. No confusion by Aus PM as to who is responsible.

[JayH]

A few hours before whipping Malaysian Boeing 777 aircraft in the area of ​​ATO, Russia closed four air routes near the border of Ukraine, including one that was part of the route of flight.


i__zmi&pered_zbittyam_malaziyskogo_litaka_rosiya_zakrila_svoyi_povitryani_shlyahi __zmi&objectId=465803" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?pered_zbittyam_malayziyskogo_litaka_rosiya_zakrila_svoyi_povitryani_shlyah i__zmi&pered_zbittyam_malaziyskogo_litaka_rosiya_zakrila_svoyi_povitryani_shlyahi __zmi&objectId=465803
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=2


The plot thickens.

[I/O]

Just to revert to the human aspect - a doctor and his wife (also a doctor) from here in my home town - a family not so far from here who lost their son and daughter in law on MH370 have now lost another family member on MH17.
 
Jay: Europe will do nothing and again, those with enough firepower and probably the appetite for confrontation don't have enough flesh in the fire (dead citizens) so I very much doubt anything substantial will come out of this - will be interesting to see if we give the "little man" the third finger salute regarding the G20 - my guess is we wont.....

[Gator]

There is a good explanation on the other forum by someone with expertise in the area.  Not impossible, or even improbable, according to him.

It is no defense to say the missile was initially targeted at a military plane yet the operators of the Buk could not determine that the missile had diverted on its own accord to seek out MK17.  Aren't there failsafe features to destroy an errant missile?

If that is the case, it endorses the opinion that the operators of the missile battery were inadequately trained to operate such a deadly weapon.  It is comparable to giving a teenager 2-minute lesson in gun safety and then allowing the teenager unsupervised access to pistols, assault rifles, etc. 

Frankly this sounds like a stretch to me.  Add that to the RT news release today that Russian military had detected that the radar from an Ukrainian  Buk battery was operational at the time of the MK17 downing.  That fits nicely with the earlier theory that Ukraine was trying to shoot down Putin's plane.

In any event, a thorough investigation will have information regarding other aircraft in the vicinity of MK17 as it traversed Ukraine.

[Gator]

The BUK system has the ability to track and lock 3 different ways depending on need and conditions. It comes with radar in which a plane is essentially a bleep and dot on a screen. None of the 3 ways are full proof especially if there are optional targets in the vicinity. It's very possible and likely it was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake however that, somebody wanted to bring down a plane

I agree it was likely a mistake.  I can not imagine a sane person deciding to shoot down a commercial passenger jet. 

[Boethius]

It is no defense to say the missile was initially targeted at a military plane yet the operators of the Buk could not determine that the missile had diverted on its own accord to seek out MK17.  Aren't there failsafe features to destroy an errant missile?

If that is the case, it endorses the opinion that the operators of the missile battery were inadequately trained to operate such a deadly weapon.  It is comparable to giving a teenager 2-minute lesson in gun safety and then allowing the teenager unsupervised access to pistols, assault rifles, etc. 

Frankly this sounds like a stretch to me.  Add that to the RT news release today that Russian military had detected that the radar from an Ukrainian  Buk battery was operational at the time of the MK17 downing.  That fits nicely with the earlier theory that Ukraine was trying to shoot down Putin's plane.

In any event, a thorough investigation will have information regarding other aircraft in the vicinity of MK17 as it traversed Ukraine.

Russia Today is a propaganda arm of the Kremlin.


Here is an interesting op ed piece by Anne Applebaum.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anne-applebaum-the-end-of-the-russian-fairy-tale/2014/07/18/3e42715a-0eab-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html?hpid=z3

[Gator]

The plane contained 192 Dutch citizens.

Victims are from all provinces, and many people have lost family or friends.

Just to revert to the human aspect - a doctor and his wife (also a doctor) from here in my home town - a family not so far from here who lost their son and daughter in law on MH370 have now lost another family member on MH17.
 

My condolences to both of your countries and particularly to the family I/O mentioned.

[Gator]

Muzh, do not worry about the black box.  It will tell us little of import.  The examination of specific damage to reassembled airplane parts is not very revealing as unlike TWA 800 it is evident what happened.   I suppose chemical and metallurgical analysis of explosive residue could reveal the type of missile used.  Yet, such is already apparent. 

What is important is that independent confirmation would remove any doubts. 

[onlyFSU4me]

Russia Today is a propaganda arm of the Kremlin.


Here is an interesting op ed piece by Anne Applebaum.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anne-applebaum-the-end-of-the-russian-fairy-tale/2014/07/18/3e42715a-0eab-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html?hpid=z3

 Great link, she brings up a great point about there not being any Ukrainian controlled anti aircraft missiles in the area since the terrorists didn't have any aircraft. That should put some holes in their claims that the Ukrainian army did it.

[lordtiberius]

Only Barbarians act this way.  Only slaves and scum tolerate it.

[BillyB]

Similar event...

http://www.newsweek.com/newsweek-rewind-when-korean-air-lines-flight-007-was-shot-down-259653

Reagan was pres then..Americans died... and nothing happened.

It may look like nothing happened in response to this event but Reagan was extremely tough on the Soviets all throughout his presidency and the result is the Soviet Union collapsed. We greatly benefited by stealing some of their women.

An international and independent inquiry will be done to bring those responsible to justice.

Obama has sanctions ready. He's also pressuring the EU to apply equivalent sanctions. The world should have got MUCH tougher from the beginning. If sanctions and talk is all we got, this thing is going to drag on for years. Don't spend all your tears on this tragedy. There will be more.

[lordtiberius]

There is no way the Russian separatists shot the plane down.  They are not smart.



Is she single?

[I/O]

Is she single?

Dunno but I'd suggest she's been rode hard and put away wet a time or two........

[JayH]

Russia has created a nightmare for Ukraine ( & the civilised world)-- now the nightmare will commence for the pariah state of Russia and Putin.

Quoting  & Translated
"PROGRESS UKRAINIAN ARMY killed all plans Putin - Saakashvili President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili years 2004-2013 live "Shuster LIVE" described the steps that can make the European Union on the situation in eastern Ukraine, and noted that successful ATO corrupted all the plans of Vladimir Putin . According to the former president of Georgia, Europe will not send missiles and aircraft in the area of administrative units, but it could suspend co-operation with Russia in the oil and gas sector. You can also freeze all foreign currency reserves of Russia. "Putin knows that can always bribe Europe" - said  "

[Shadow]

I see the usual suspets are already jumping the gun again.
Thanks for eeping the respect to the victims by splurging your obivous hatred towards Russia.

[sleepycat]

You're welcome...

[Shadow]

For those who wish to see if any relatives might be involved... the official passenger list.

[noelscot]

Considering the war in Ukraine, are people heeding their government's travel advisories and not visiting Ukraine? Or is there a middle road? For example, if a guy on here was going to visit a lady in Israel right about now, probably some would caution them not to do so, and some others would go so far as to question the person's self-regard.

Jack Bragg, RIP, always told me that Lugansk and Kharkov were some of the best hot spots to meet FSUW in Ukraine.



Those are the far eastern areas which are ethnically Russian and are somewhat dicey.

It is a tragedy that these innocent people were killed on the plane, but posts about the practicalities of still doing this thing with FSUW located in Ukraine are also of interest and might help the women and men who are seeking their partner going forward.

It seems to me that meeting in adjacent countries is the wise thing to do for now, especially since commercial airliners are being shot down! What do you all think?

[Boethius]

Those are the far eastern areas which are ethnically Russian and are somewhat dicey.

That is inaccurate.  Ukrainians are the dominant ethnic group in all regions of Ukraine.  The only region where Russians dominated was Crimea.

[Shadow]

It seems to me that meeting in adjacent countries is the wise thing to do for now, especially since commercial airliners are being shot down! What do you all think?

It seems that caution is even more wise. The situation will cause a lot of women willing to leave regardless of whom they leave with. And none of those will refuse a free holiday.
You might even get a Russian visa and go to Crimea.

[calmissile]

I see the usual suspets are already jumping the gun again.
Thanks for eeping the respect to the victims by splurging your obivous hatred towards Russia.

Stop your whining!  No one is blaming or indicating hatred toward the Russian people, only the Russian government.

You also seem to defy logic.  Securing a crime scene before the perpetrator covers their tracks is most important!  The police do not wait for bureaucrats to fart around before trying to catch the criminals and secure evidence.

The evidence provided by the Ukraine government and the US signal intelligence seems overwhelming at the moment.  Catching the Russian terrorists in East Ukraine and determining if Russian forces manned the SAM is critical to establish ASAP.  To believe the current Russian propaganda you would have to believe that Ukraine and the US conspired to stage this whole incident and I doubt anyone except Russians would believe that.

To start with....
1.  The terrorists immediately took credit for shooting down the airliner and then tried to erase the posts on social media.
2.  The intercepted phone calls between the terrorists and the Russian intelligence officers are damning.  Was this all staged by Ukraine?  Doubt it!
3.  Photos and telcon intercepts about the Russians bringing the SAM through the border in the middle of the night is also damning.
4.  The intercepted phone calls indicated that the Russian SAM crew (operators) came with the weapon across the border into Ukraine.

I hope that Ukraine and the US continue to release evidence to the world as quickly as possible.

[Shadow]

Stop your whining!  No one is blaming or indicating hatred toward the Russian people, only the Russian government.

Funny how I am said to hate America if I criticze its politics, yet am not allowed to say the same from those criticizing Russia.

You also seem to defy logic.  Securing a crime scene before the perpetrator covers their tracks is most important!  The police do not wait for bureaucrats to fart around before trying to catch the criminals and secure evidence.

Reason for the attack on Lugansk?

The evidence provided by the Ukraine government and the US signal intelligence seems overwhelming at the moment.  Catching the Russian terrorists in East Ukraine and determining if Russian forces manned the SAM is critical to establish ASAP.  To believe the current Russian propaganda you would have to believe that Ukraine and the US conspired to stage this whole incident and I doubt anyone except Russians would believe that.

How can you be sure who manned what if there are contrasting reports. Even if your option of Russian mercennaries manning a system taken from the Ukrainian army is likely.

To start with....
1.  The terrorists immediately took credit for shooting down the airliner and then tried to erase the posts on social media.
2.  The intercepted phone calls between the terrorists and the Russian intelligence officers are damning.  Was this all staged by Ukraine?  Doubt it!
3.  Photos and telcon intercepts about the Russians bringing the SAM through the border in the middle of the night is also damning.
4.  The intercepted phone calls indicated that the Russian SAM crew (operators) came with the weapon across the border into Ukraine.

I hope that Ukraine and the US continue to release evidence to the world as quickly as possible.

1. Agreed, Yet are you sure they placed this themselves?
2. How long does it take to get such a call released? It was available within hours, apart from a time stamp on a post in Russian that was before the event. (Note that I repeat conspiracy here, not personal opinion)
3. Why is it damning, what is the evidence that this is not related to the earlier downed planes, or a decision to stop providing this equipment to people not properly trained to handle them.
4. See point 2.

Your mention of terrorists once again shows your prejudice.

[sleepycat]

You might even get a Russian visa and go to Crimea.

...and be the one & only guest at the holiday resort. 

[calmissile]

Funny how I am said to hate America if I criticze its politics, yet am not allowed to say the same from those criticizing Russia.Reason for the attack on Lugansk?
How can you be sure who manned what if there are contrasting reports. Even if your option of Russian mercennaries manning a system taken from the Ukrainian army is likely

1. Agreed, Yet are you sure they placed this themselves?
2. How long does it take to get such a call released? It was available within hours, apart from a time stamp on a post in Russian that was before the event. (Note that I repeat conspiracy here, not personal opinion)
3. Why is it damning, what is the evidence that this is not related to the earlier downed planes, or a decision to stop providing this equipment to people not properly trained to handle them.
4. See point 2.

Your mention of terrorists once again shows your prejudice.

I am basing my opinions on evidence and logic.
1.  Putin has made public statements the he wants to regain the former FSU states and rebuild the Russian Empire (FSU).
2.  His actions in Ukraine are consistent with his stated objectives.
3.  Russia has a long history of telling bold face lies about nearly everything.  Even to the point of being illogical or impossible. Pre-Crimean invasion, etc.  'Little Green Men'  admitted to later.


Response #1.  How do I know that the admission of the terrorists were not fake?   There is no 100% certainty, however we have no history I am aware of where the terrorists posts were faked.  Furthermore, it is unlikely because their accounts are password protected.   Possible, maybe....likely NO!  Furthermore, the posts taking credit for the shootdown was almost immediately after the incident.  By itself, not 100% proof but when coupled with all the other evidence, it provides credibility to the big picture.

Respose #2.  How long does it take to get the intercepted calls released?   Apparently, not very long.   
Based upon the quantity of intercepted calls that were realeased by Ukraine yesterday,  it would appear that Ukraine and perhaps the USA has been monitoring the calls all along.  I admire Ukraine for realeasing the actual audio quickly for the world to draw their own conclusions.   This is somewhat rare in the intelligence world.  It allows the enemy to discover your methods of gaining intelligence.  I have yet to read any credible sources that say that the Russians and terrorists on the phone calls were faked.

Response #3.  How do we know that the Russians recalled the SAM missiles back to Russia because they realized that they were given to terrorists that we not adequately trained to use them properly.  BINGO!!!!!  That part might be true.   
Waiting until they shot down several airplanes is a little late, don't you think?

Response #4.  With reference to the intercepted calls between the Russians and terrorists talking about hiding the SAM after it came across the border, it does not matter for which airplane it was responsible to have shot down.  The guilt is the same whether it was a Ukraine airplane in Ukraine airspace or an airliner over Ukraine airspace.  Lastly, the time of the call(s) coincides with the just prior to the airliner shootdown.

You can try to nitpick each piece of evidence..... plus more to come, or you can step back and review the big picture:

1. If Russia had not created the unrest in Crimea and invaded it, Crimea would have continued to function peacefully as part of Ukraine as it had in the past.

2.  If Russia had not created the unrest in the East and South of Ukraine, and funded the terrorists, and provided Russian weapons to the terrorists, and provided Russian Military Officers to them,  East Ukraine would have continued to have peace.

The big picture..... If Russian had kept their nose in their own business, Ukraine would have found it much easier to rebuild their democratic country.

WATCH SOON!   PUTIN WILL START TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THE RUSSIAN TERRORISTS IN UKRAINE.  Sorry Putler, too late.  You stepped on your dick this time.