Getting started

[bobs12]

Hi folks. I don't have any suggestions yet, but with some friends I'd like to start up something of a small-scale introductions agency. Any ideas about some ethical ground rules to set?

I don't know yet whether it will ever come off, but it will be something of a personal service, interviewing women to make sure there are no scams, etc. & making introductions personally.

Fire in the ideas - would you use such a service? Would you prefer not to have a third party 'looking over your shoulder' or would you see it as a 'guiding hand'?

[TheHorseman]

I have a couple suggestions.

1st:  See if you can find Isaac.  If he ever fixes his plsce up they way he had planned it would be perfect for an introduction place or just a good place for visitors to stay.

2nd:  Don't introduce them to Lena......(Bob's ex-girlfriend) LOL

I still want to be the first client.

Will

[bobs12]

Okay, Will gets a free sample

[Sohkay]

The discussion of standards and guidelines seems to be an almost moot point. I say this because the agency business appears to be a declining industry. To start an agency now almost appears as if it's the same as starting a Sony Betamax repair facility. Secondly, the level of scamming by both agencies and participants is still vastly unregulated, by anything other than market forces. This is basically self-regulation, and we all know how well that works when you have the element of human greed involved. It would seem that despite the efforts of truly honest agency operators, these businesses will still attract concentrations of scammer women and scammer operators.

Now, I must tell you I am biased. I have never even set foot inside an agency, yet I have a beautiful Ukrainian woman who may very well become my wife. Early in her foreign men/internet dating experiences, she learned that virtually every agency she worked with was full of scammer women and scammer operators. She found that there were very stupid and base men who attempted to communicate with her through these agencies. She left the agencies and I met her through freepersonals.ru. I have once used the services of an agency in Ukraine to deliver a food basket to a woman. For $80, she received a bunch of bananas, some salty tomatoes, some cheap champagne and some of the items promised in the basket were not there. I saw the photo of her receiving the basket and I was pissed and embarrassed by the crappy appearance of this basket.

I think a more relevant topic of discussion for this board is the development of a set of guidelines for THE CONSUMER of agency services. Yes, I know we have a scam section. But maybe what would be more helpful to the consumers of these services, would be the development of things to watch for and guidelines when dealing with them...sort of a consumer of agency services ten commandments. This board is for the consumer, the end user, isn't it Dan?

I certainly hope this forum doesn't turn into a platform for the agency operators. If it does start to go that way, I know that I'm outta' here. I've even noticed a few out here whose primary motivation for being out here appears to be the promotion of their business ventures. I would hate to see the best FSU women board on the net go that route. Perhaps the best thing to do Dan, would be to provide a "corral" for the people who wish to promote their ventures to the members of this board. That way you got the ponies in a corral, and if a member wants to ride them, well, they know where to go.

Just my 2 kopecka.

[Admin]

The discussion of standards and guidelines seems to be an almost moot point. I say this because the agency business appears to be a declining industry. To start an agency now almost appears as if it's the same as starting a Sony Betamax repair facility. Secondly, the level of scamming by both agencies and participants is still vastly unregulated, by anything other than market forces. This is basically self-regulation, and we all know how well that works when you have the element of human greed involved. It would seem that despite the efforts of truly honest agency operators, these businesses will still attract concentrations of scammer women and scammer operators.

I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

I think a more relevant topic of discussion for this board is the development of a set of guidelines for THE CONSUMER of agency services. Yes, I know we have a scam section. But maybe what would be more helpful to the consumers of these services, would be the development of things to watch for and guidelines when dealing with them...sort of a consumer of agency services ten commandments. This board is for the consumer, the end user, isn't it Dan?

I certainly hope this forum doesn't turn into a platform for the agency operators. If it does start to go that way, I know that I'm outta' here. I've even noticed a few out here whose primary motivation for being out here appears to be the promotion of their business ventures. I would hate to see the best FSU women board on the net go that route. Perhaps the best thing to do Dan, would be to provide a "corral" for the people who wish to promote their ventures to the members of this board. That way you got the ponies in a corral, and if a member wants to ride them, well, they know where to go.

Just my 2 kopecka.

RWD is not going to turn into an advertising platform. I recently posted some new Guidance so that all might know the policies on advertising in the forums - found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2034.0.

If you think the topic of 'standards' ought to take a course correction, I welcome your contributions to the section and your attempt at the tiller. As you can see, the direction is still forming and is quite malleable.

Cheers!

- Dan

[Sohkay]

Glad to hear it Dan. I admire your integrity in maintaining the focus.

OK, here's an idea for a guideline.

#1. Always insist on the ability to have a direct line of communication with the woman you're interested in. If the agency doesn't want you to have this, or the woman doesn't want you to have this, it should raise a red flag.

[TheHorseman]

While I agree with the idea of trying to set some sort of rules for this indever.  However I really don't think it is the best course to take.

Bob and I have had this discussion in the past.  Though we have many ideas in common, I will have to agree with sohkay that another Agency probably isn't needed, or practical.

Bob and I have discussed making a different type of Tour Agency that would make it possible for men to meet women in a better settings.  I have also talked to a woman friend of mine that owns an English school in Russia.  Since Bob and I have past experience in Teaching English in Russia I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

With this idea we could show men how to save money traveling, provide a platform for them to meet women that at least know a little English, and do it in a place that doesn't get the regular tourist traffic.  There by cutting down the number of scamming women, and cutting the dating Agency part completely out of the picture.

I have done the internet dating thing, and I can safely say that going to meet just one woman is a total waste of time and money.  Going on a bride tour is way too expensive and two weeks is not long enough to meet a woman you want to marry.

I am not trying to push my Book, but I just wrote a book about this very thing.  it is on my website www.my-russia.org.

I would like to hear whether or not men would be interested in the sort of thing that I am suggesting.  I am not trying to cut you off Bob, but I do believe in my heart that this would be the better dirrection for everyone.

Will

[Kevin]

Some of the standards I would like to see.
1. Owners identify on the web site.
2. Office and Agents identified on the web site.
3. Policy pages on every site to include a refund policy.
4. Dated photos

Kevin

[Admin]

While I agree with the idea of trying to set some sort of rules for this indever.  However I really don't think it is the best course to take.

Bob and I have had this discussion in the past.  Though we have many ideas in common, I will have to agree with sohkay that another Agency probably isn't needed, or practical.

Bob and I have discussed making a different type of Tour Agency that would make it possible for men to meet women in a better settings.  I have also talked to a woman friend of mine that owns an English school in Russia.  Since Bob and I have past experience in Teaching English in Russia I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

With this idea we could show men how to save money traveling, provide a platform for them to meet women that at least know a little English, and do it in a place that doesn't get the regular tourist traffic.  There by cutting down the number of scamming women, and cutting the dating Agency part completely out of the picture.

I have done the internet dating thing, and I can safely say that going to meet just one woman is a total waste of time and money.  Going on a bride tour is way too expensive and two weeks is not long enough to meet a woman you want to marry.

I am not trying to push my Book, but I just wrote a book about this very thing.  it is on my website www.my-russia.org.

I would like to hear whether or not men would be interested in the sort of thing that I am suggesting.  I am not trying to cut you off Bob, but I do believe in my heart that this would be the better dirrection for everyone.

Will

Variety of thoughts:

Re: Standards. Like it or not, there are going to be standards imposed. Just consider the IMBRA legislation. These are standards and they establish a minimum amount of information that now must be collected and made available. But that is only the top of the iceberg, and it is also only one-way - defining what the AM must make available for disclosure to FSU women. As Kevin points out in another post - there are a HUGE number of points that should be considered by guys in selection of an agency. Likewise, the women in this should be able to expect a minimum standard of performance from the agencies they contact to represent them. Right?

Well, it makes sense to set down those standards in writing, so that all who subscribe and conform, may be known by their compliance - and offering a reasonable level of assurance to those who would make use of the agency services.

The establishment of standards here, is not in any way directed towards formation of an agency. Quite the opposite really - the establishment of standards would purport to create written guidance that would be recommended to agencies for adoption - and to men and women as criteria for selection of reputable agencies to act on their behalf.

Make sense??

Re: Advertisements. RWD has made the transition from Discussion Forums to a broad Community site. Communities need, and include, members of all sorts. Agency owners, consumers of services and products, purveyors of services and products, married guys with little need of services/products but long on experience - and so on. RWD has made provisions for those members of our community with wares to sell. Those provisions are NOT to be a part of the Discussion Forums - but they are, most certainly, a necessary and valuable part of the overall COMMUNITY aspect of RWD.

As this evolves, there will be need to continue to define and refine the expected conduct of RWD members - and the link to new Guidance I provided above is the first stab at it.

Above all else, RWD needs active and thriving community members who share their experiences and ideas with the rest of us. We are extraordinarily blessed to have the very BEST contributors anywhere. We have the highest quality of posts - the least number of trolls and detractors - the most energetic contributors, of any similar board on the net - by far. And this is only the beginning.

- Dan

[jb]

Horseman,

I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

I agree that working as an ex-pat in Russia is the very best way to get one's feet wet with Russians, however, unless a man can do this as a highly paid professional within his own field of expertise, I would discourage any guy from thinking this way.  I would label this particular idea as probably 99% impractical for the majority of the men who surf this board.  Most men are involved in whatever career choices they've made after years of schooling and training, and simply cannot drop their livelihood and take a year's long sabbatical to pursue what for many is pretty much a pipe dream anyway. 

Most of these men are 40+ years old, and are entering into what will be their most productive years as wage earners.  These are the absolute most important years a man has to build upon his professional reputation, to put together an investment plan for his family's future, or just build on his 401K.  To interrupt a viable career at this point, to give up company paid benefits, to let slide at-home responsibilities is just not an option for the majority.   Who's going to make the mortgage payments, car payments, etc.,, while he's off earning starvation wages teaching English in Siberia?  This, for the average guy would be madness, and just might lead to professional suicide.  For certain, such a man would be at some disadvantage when returned home with his new bride and attempts to re-enter the local job market.   The competition for his old job slot will be fierce from younger men, willing to work at entry level salaries, and many with fresh from college degrees. 

I admire your experience and adventure while teaching English in the Russian hinterland, I'm sure you had fun. However, so far I didn't read that you had much success in finding Ms. Right so far yourself.  I do not advocate the use of MOB agencies either as I've never set foot in one, but you seem dead set on preaching that your way is the BEST way, while offering no evidence that you've succeeded in finding a wife for yourself.

Just my 2 cents.

[TheHorseman]

Point Well taken jb

Your correct in that fact that I didn't meet Mrs Right while on my travels.  I though I had after my first teaching trip, Which was only a one month trip.  but I learned a couple lessons from that too.  Believe me I have friends waiting to set me up with new prospects upon my return.

I agree that many men can't take a year off to do there searching.  However for some of them, men like myself, they can take a one month at a time trip.  Another factor for many men is the cost.  The Tour Agencies (Bride Tours) Usually offer two weeks with a price tag for most of these tours running between $3500 and $4500.  This price doesn’t include meals, drinks, taxis, translators, site seeing or any other money you will spend on your dates. 

What I am propossing is to show men how to go to different places (the road less traveled), spend less money,and Hopefully meet a different class of women.

I understand that many of them just can't put their lives on hold while looking.  I couldn't do it either.  I have a Business, house payment and a teenage son to take care of and an elderly mother to keep an eye on myself.  I did put my horse business on hold for a while.  I guess I am one of the lucky one that can.  But my trips only last about 4-6 weeks and I usually spend less than $2000.

I am not agruing anything, just offering different Ideas. 

Bob is a great guy, he has a good head on his shoulders and a lot of get up and go.  Actually I think he could make a good Agency for helping men.  But that idea has been done to death.  Lets try something new.

Will

[Sohkay]

Will,
You wrote, "What I am propossing is to show men how to go to different places (the road less traveled), spend less money,and Hopefully meet a different class of women."

Much, if not all of that information is contained in the pages of this forum and the experiences of others. So, in essence, your business would have to compete with a free internet service.

It's hard to make money when your competing against something that's available for free.

[Admin]

Hi folks. I don't have any suggestions yet, but with some friends I'd like to start up something of a small-scale introductions agency. Any ideas about some ethical ground rules to set?

I don't know yet whether it will ever come off, but it will be something of a personal service, interviewing women to make sure there are no scams, etc. & making introductions personally.

Fire in the ideas - would you use such a service? Would you prefer not to have a third party 'looking over your shoulder' or would you see it as a 'guiding hand'?

I will throw out a few questions:

* Is the agency's client the RW or the WM? Who has first priority?
* Should the agency be obligated to the same disclosures of information on both sides? i.e. If certain types of information is required to be divulged by the WM to the RW - should the RW have the same, or similar, obligations to disclose those items?
* What are the agency's obligations on morality? We have seen Sandro point out the Double-Dealers lists - what should an agency owner do when/if he finds a double-dealer on his site? (AND!! How does he know if she is ACTIVE in the profession - AND!! if she is NOT active - what obligation does the agency owner have to disclose?????)

* What obligation does the agency owner have to allow unfettered exchange of information between the parties?

* What obligation does the agency owner have to protect the 'interests' of the RW - and of the WM ??

* Should the agency owner immediately remove a profile of a RW who is generating a lot of income (i.e. address sales, letter-writing, etc.) for the agency - once the RW advises the agency she is 'committed'?

Folks - there are LOADS of important questions which *NEED* definitive answers and guidance. Let's get on with this, as it really is IMPORTANT - for EVERYONE involved.

- Dan

[Michelangelo]

Seems to me we should ask the guys who succeeded what worked for them, and what did not work.

In terms of what DID NOT work for me....   Never use an agency that does not let you directly contact the lady.  It's a waste of time and money and is a red flag that you are being scammed.

I agree with JB that the man better not quit his career for a pie in the sky dream of finding a girl. It's better to make your home country your base and make excursions into the FSU.  Then you can return home and think it over, and evaluate outside the temptation area  

[jb]

Excellent questions, Dan.

Except that the hypothetically oriented agency is operating out of the kindness of heart, and not for profit, how could anyone ever trust that there is not somewhere in the woodwork, an agenda that is not in their own best interest? 

Several of us, members who are married, have attempted to "fix up" women we know to be real sweethearts with Western men in the past. Our own match-making experience has been a dismal failure for the most part.  We who actually know these women personally, have trouble washing our hands of the outcome of such a meeting, yet that is the expectation of any man who travels halfway around the globe for a blind date.  He rightly wants to be able to make up his own mind about a woman, and who could blame him... 

I'd say an agency owner has to be completely uninvolved in the personal lives of the clients, otherwise the agency assumes the mother-hen mantle, and nobody ever gets married.  Probably the best you can hope for is a full disclosure of the facts, as best you know them, then let nature take it's course.  People are going to do dumb things no matter how much protective clothing you make them wear. Men in asbestos suits still manage to get burned.

[TheHorseman]

The idea of making guidelines for agencies is good, but when it comes right down to it what is the main goal of the Agency,,,, To make money.  While they may have the best intentions from the start, they will all come to a point where they have to say "What makes money, and What doesn't."

They may not want scaming women, but if those are the ones that bring in the cash they won't have any other choice but to let them stay.  This is if you find an agency that wants to play by the rules in the first place.

Much, if not all of that information is contained in the pages of this forum and the experiences of others. So, in essence, your business would have to compete with a free internet service.

It's hard to make money when your competing against something that's available for free.

It isn't hard to make money this way.  The fact that this information is free on this site only helps my idea.  I don't want to over run this topic with my own ideas,  maybe I will start another post with the intire idea spelled.  I'm not worried about anyone stealing my ideas.  You would have to know quite a few of the right people to make them fly.  I am pertty sure there is plenty of room in Russia for anyone wanting to try it.  I have a lock on the two towns I want to do it in.  In fact the more the merrier.

But there is a need for changing the way thing are done through the Agencies.  So why not creat a different type of Agency?

[Admin]

But there is a need for changing the way thing are done through the Agencies.  So why not creat a different type of Agency?

So what does that agency "look like"?

Lots of businesses are in business to make money. That does NOT mean they have license to behave in an unscrupulous and unethical manner - does it? I do not see ethics and profit motive as being mutually-exclusive. In fact, they can be quite complementary - and that is EXACTLY the goal of the written standards.

If we can establish those guidelines - and if some agencies elect to NOT follow them, so they opt out - and others agree to comply with the standards - at least a guy will have SOME level of assurance that the company they are choosing to do business with accepts, and complies, with some level of ethical guidance to how they conduct business. This does NOT exist today. It is purely individual and word of mouth - which can be bad and good - and we have seen it all played-out on these boards for YEARS AND YEARS. Somebody gets PO'd at their treatment while in Donetsk - and they come onto the boards to cry "FOUL!" and they scream and rant - only to later find out, they were upset because the girl they liked merely didn't like him back. Happens ALL the time.

There needs to be a more objective, defined standard - and that is what we are developing.

So what should the agency of the future look like Will?

- Dan

[TheHorseman]

Ok I guess this is as good as any place to put the idea.

I do understand what you are trying to setup and that guidelines will help.  BUT: You wrote:  I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

With 500 agencies out there how are you going to get them to want to sign on to your ideas.

My idea is to make a connection between Teaching English and the Dating Agency.

1st:  The TEFL indrustry is growing.  People in Russia want to learn English.  They want native English speaking people to come to their school. (Even for short visits)  More native English Teachers means more students. ie the school makes more money.  The school can also setup photo sites to show what women attend their school.  (and without charging any fee to contact the women)

2nd;  The school can help in setting up classes and introduction with women that are interested in meeting foreign men. There are student that jump at the chance to be tour guides just to practice their English.

3rd:  Having Translators (Other Teachers) means less communication problem.

4th: Cost of services will only accure opon the visit. I plan to make a package deal for  $500 per month per visitor.  This fee would be for the service of setting up an Apartment pickup and delivery to the airports and such.


5ht: The only way to make this work is to be connected to the city that you want to start it up in.  Even if you only get one customer a month it could work. (I have other business idea I would be working on in the town beside this)  The whole point is to make if affordable for men to be able to do this while at the same time providing a good service.

I have been approched in Russia about starting a Bride type service.  I rejected the idea on the grounds that I don't agree with that way of meeting women.  A school introduction page allowing a man to contact a women that attends the school only helps the school to get them to come there.  Teaching is not really that involved and most of it consist of just talking to the students.  It is actually fun and doesn't take up that much time.  Leaving plenty of time to visit with women.

jb; My only failure in what I did on my first trip was to hook up with the first one I was introduced to.  from then on I stopped looking.  There are plenty of women that would love a chance to meet men this way.

Less pressure from both sides.

With the average Airfares to Ufa or Samara being about $1200- 1300 the visa cost at $225 (Trough Travisa travel service)  A $500 service fee (Once you get there)  About $150 - 200 for food. you're looking at a total cost of less than $2500.  You will save more money the longer you stay.

My first trip to Belarus cost me $2500 for 10 days and I felt like a pet in a cage waiting for my date to come walk me 4-5 hours a day.  At least this way the men would have something to do.

I am sure I left out a lot,,,, I will rewrite it later and if anyone is interested let me know.

[Admin]

Ok I guess this is as good as any place to put the idea.

I do understand what you are trying to setup and that guidelines will help.  BUT: You wrote:  I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

With 500 agencies out there how are you going to get them to want to sign on to your ideas.

They will only sign-up to the standards *if* they either; (a) agree wholeheartedly and were already conducting business ethically and honestly, or (b) they see that CHANGES to their business model, so that it falls in line with the standards, will ultimately benefit them in the long run.

I honestly don't think it will be too very difficult to get agency owners who are ethical and interested in a 'clean' business - to sign-up for the model. And I think it will be VERY popular with the people who are consumers of the product those agencies are trying to sell.

My idea is to make a connection between Teaching English and the Dating Agency.

I *like* your idea Will. I like it for several reasons - but the angle of 'giving back' is one aspect which appeals to me. Not sure it will 'play' with everyone, however.

I also wonder how, if at all, the IMBRA legislation might touch on this. It could, potentially, be a way around the IMBRA garbage. Interesting food for thought.

And thanks for being willing to share your thoughts and ideas here.

- Dan

[TheHorseman]

Thanks Dan

Bob had a lot to do with helping me on the idea.  His being an English teacher there in St Petes for so long has made him a valued source of information on the subject.

I have set up a web page for the school in Oktyabrsky.  Guzel is hard as hell to get a hold of, I call her from time to time just to see if she is still alive.  If anyone wants more info that can contact me.  The school year starts at the first of Sept. I am hoping to be there at that time.  the page is: http://www.my-russia.org/page05.html

[bobs12]

Sorry if I jump in with some naiive stuff here folks, go easy on me as I'm not clued up on the whole online dating thing with its attached regulations.

One thing I mentioned before to Will is that while I believe the whole thing is a good idea, I'm not too keen on mixing dating with TEFL. That side of the (TEFL) industry has already taken the shine off native teachers. People pay hard-earned money to learn English here, not meet randy teachers! I can see it working better in more provincial cities where there is more a need for 'English speakers' than 'native TEACHERS'.

However, if there were specific classes set up for women to learn 'dating English', and the teacher was savvy enough to filter out the scammers that turned up to lessons...

But I like the idea that it would work by simply facilitiating introductions, then letting things go from there with some services thrown in along the way.

However, there is no getting away from the reponsibility to the women involved. This kind of thing could easily attract the wrong kind of guy, judging by some of the people that are attracted to TEFL anyway.

Face control?

[Sohkay]

I don't like it for the exact reasons Bob mentioned. You could end up with guys who do no justice to the English language education project, thereby angering the schools. Too many potentially conflicting motivations. My gut instinct on this idea is bad.

[TheHorseman]

You could end up with guys who do no justice to the English language education project, thereby angering the schools. Too many potentially conflicting motivations.

This is where careful motitoration of your client base steps in.  There are going to be times that the school will need REGULAR TEACHERS and there will be time for DATING TEACHERS.

Especially in the smaller out of the way cities.  They have a hard time getting regular teachers anyway.  The trick will be to balance the two areas. 

This is where several of my other ideas come in to play.  I have ideas for building the school in a way that it will not rely on a regular flow of teachers and I have ideas that will provide other sources of interest for the men looking to meet women.  All of which are designed for me to stay out of the way and let the men handle there own dates while being there to help out at the same time.

The set won't be as easy as falling off a log, but with the right touch I see potential for at least four related business that will all help in serving each other.  The trick isn't to build a single business that makes a killing, but to build a series of businesses that won't rely on each other to stay a float.

Forums like this will only serve to build the business.  Word of mouth will care it.  Happy customers will do the advertising for it.  But it wouldn't rely on that alone.

Yes there are going to be certain people that won't be happy, but there are those in all areas of business.  Like Dan said "Giving back" is a good point to this too.  The city will see growth through tourism and it will be possible to expand the school adding more local teachers (The city I am talking about is concerned about that)

There is room here for those Rules and Regulation for Agencies that we have been talking about to.

[Killer-B]

I'm not too keen on mixing dating with TEFL. That side of the (TEFL) industry has already taken the shine off native teachers. People pay hard-earned money to learn English here, not meet randy teachers! 

This kind of thing could easily attract the wrong kind of guy, judging by some of the people that are attracted to TEFL anyway.

As a TEFL/CELTA teacher myself (Cambridge) and having lived and taught abroad - Am having a hard time understanding your logic here...

First, are you dinging the ESL teachers? or the women who attend? (I have thoughts either way) - What, in your opinion, has removed the "shine"?

Secondly, What do you mean about teachers attracted to the TEFL programme being the "wrong kinds of guys"?

Cheers -

Killer

[bobs12]

Korea.