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Author Topic: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis  (Read 238930 times)

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Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #975 on: November 30, 2018, 12:45:33 AM »
Incredible as it may seem to many here numerous western news agencies are still picking up Russian "news"  feeds and using that information. Amazing ignorance in action.
The blatant lies promoted by Russia over this latest attack is quite amazing --the Ukrainian ships were attacked in open waters-- attacked by aircraft and the sea --the videos prove the facts --yet Russian media still attempts ridiculous lies.


Russian wave of disinformation from the Azov Sea


The stories published by Russia Today have clear signs of distorting the facts as they state that “Ukrainian ships entered Russian waters in the Black Sea illegally” while in reality, the bilateral treaty between Russia and Ukraine governs the use of the Kerch Strait and the Sea of Azov, which is considered to be the “internal waters” of both Russia and Ukraine.

Russian media also suggested that the incident was “a deliberate provocation by the Ukrainian authorities” with an aim to “create a diplomatic row” that would lead to sanctions against Moscow being tightened. That is a bit peculiar, as the Ukrainian ships were moving “in accordance with the provisions of all effective multilateral and bilateral international treaties and navigation rules,” according to Ukraine. And the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) states that “All ships, including foreign warships, enjoy the right of “innocent passage” within another state’s territorial sea under international law.”


http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/11/29/russian-wave-of-disinformation-from-the-azov-sea/
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #976 on: November 30, 2018, 01:00:24 AM »
Understanding what the Russian strategy is makes an understanding of short term issues like the Kerch Strait are really about.
This story highlights the difficulties for Ukraine in it's quest for freedom.


Russian spies in Ukraine stoke Kremlin’s war

Ukraine doesn’t just have to worry about Russia at sea or the eastern Donbas.

Kremlin spies are coming to Kyiv en masse, if they are not already in the capital, as Russia steps up clandestine activities amid heightened alert over the Nov. 25 assault by Russia’s Federal Security Service, or FSB, on Ukrainian sailors near the Kerch Strait.

United Kingdom-based investigators and international experts believe that Russian operatives are using sham Ukrainian-owned companies to gain long-term residency in Ukraine. The phony employment serves as a cover for espionage and subversion.

Investigators and security experts claim that the number of agents in Ukraine working for the Russian GRU main intelligence directorate has increased during recent months and may number in the hundreds now.

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/russian-spies-in-ukraine-stoke-kremlins-war.html



Not that it helps that much in relation to article above and what has already happened -- just after I posted above Ukraine announced a ban on Russian men from 16 yo to 60 yo from entering Ukraine-effective immediately
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 01:19:02 AM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline tfcrew

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #977 on: November 30, 2018, 06:06:16 PM »
~There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf as those who will not listen~
~Think about the intelligence of the average person and then realize that half of the people are even more stupid than that~

Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #978 on: December 02, 2018, 12:27:41 AM »

The link below details a minute by minute review of what and where -- the why is because the Russian ships and aircraft were ordered to attack -the bigger "WHY " is why was that order given?

Russian lying would be comical if it was not so serious --  but it has to be for home  consumption as the rest of the world sees how ridiculous and easily proven that they are lying --again !





FSB tries to explain attack on Ukrainian ships, proves Russia broke its own laws


Summing up,Russia broke a UN Convention, bilateral Ukraine-Russia Treaty, and several of its own laws when it denied the Ukrainian ships passage to the Azov Strait and when it opened fire on them;The FSB proved that Russia’s use of fire against the Ukrainian ships was unprovoked and without legal reason;The FSB admitted that Russia fired on Ukrainian ships outside of the territorial waters of occupied Crimea and made crude geographical mistakes;The FSB contradicted its own story. Why block the Ukrainian ships near the Crimean bridge for eight hours if you suspect an act of sabotage, and if you were pursuing what you consider to be violators of the border regime? Why attack them when they are leaving into the open sea, away from the bridge?The FSB story features lies (“Berdiansk was not answering calls of the Russian border guards”) and omits the episode when Russian border ships rammed the Ukrainian tugboat, which led to its loss of engines;Meanwhile, open-source material has proved no inconsistency in the Ukrainian version of events.


http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/12/02/fsb-attempt-to-explain-why-russia-attacked-ukrainian-ships-contradictions-and-lehal-nihilism/
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Thwarting Moscow’s latest escalation
« Reply #979 on: December 02, 2018, 01:33:30 AM »

Nicely thought out piece that provides a good summary.
Fitting the complexities of the purpose of the Russian attacks on Ukraine together helps those not so familiar understand better what is going on. There is hardly an independent outside observer that has a different view


Thwarting Moscow’s latest escalation



Moscow’s open attack on the Ukrainian ships was designed primarily to prevent Kyiv from increasing its naval presence in the Sea of Azov. Over the course of the year, the Kremlin has enhanced its presence in the Sea of Azov. It now has eight naval vessels in this small sea. To protect its large naval advantage there, the Kremlin first blocked passage and then attacked Ukrainian ships.

But Moscow’s confrontation with the Ukrainian ships was also designed to provoke Ukrainian fire. The Kremlin wanted a Ukrainian “provocation” to which they could “respond.” But Ukraine did not return fire. For those who follow Kremlin policy in its neighborhood, this looks dangerously familiar.


http://thehill.com/opinion/international/419200-thwarting-moscows-latest-escalation
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #980 on: February 26, 2019, 02:01:16 AM »
There are a fair number of Russian supporters and sympathisers here on the forum (& around the world)  whose disgusting rationalisation of Putin and his kleptocrats is ongoing -- despite all the obvious facts now in evidence. More keeps coming into the light everyday --  as good Ukrainians continue to be killed.maimed, injured  and displaced --let alone the intended negative affect on a free and democratic independent Ukraine.

I  draw particular attention  to this paragraph ( especially for some here who still seem to believe otherwise)  and surveys on preferred statehood prior to the Russian invasion. I hate channelling Moby here -- BUT-- my Ukrainian ex was heavily involved in the collation and interpretation analysis of this type of data at that time and earlier--all across Ukraine -- and I spent a lot of time learning and hearing ( & yes-I was very interested) . Subsequently -- seeing the Russian troll army and propaganda get into gear and promote "alternative facts" was a  very real thing for me -- so reading this ( & more) connects dots not able to be confirmed at that time.

I personally witnessed a number of events referred to in this article .

I ask you all to red this and digest  what it means --Ukraine is fighting for it's life- and Freedom from Russian tyranny and it needs help. Good people are still dieing as a result of Russian aggression.



"Although the international community has remained united in refusing to recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian Crimea five years ago, it has been disturbingly willing to accept Russia’s narrative about the supposed mass support in Crimea for this move.  Even those who recognize that the 16 March ‘referendum’ was flawed still assume that euphoric crowds with Russian flags are somehow more reliable than the surveys carried out before Russia’s invasion that found only a minority in favour of joining Russia."


Glazyev tapes debunk Russia’s lies about its annexation of Crimea and undeclared war against Ukraine

One major source of evidence of the methods Russia used in both Crimea and other parts of Ukraine in 2014 has not received the attention it deserves.  The Glazyev tapes were first made public by Ukraine’s SBU [Security Service] in August 2016, with more recordings revealed during the trial (in absentia) of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.  They appear to be intercepted telephone conversations between Sergei Glazyev, a senior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin and various other figures, including Konstantin Zatulin, Director of the Russian Institute of CIS Countries who was declared persona non grata in Ukraine back in 2006 for activities linked with seeking Crimea’s secession from Ukraine.  Zatulin admitted soon after the initial publication that his voice is on the tapes, though claimed that they were a manipulative montage.  Both Glazyev and Zatulin have reportedly received the Russian state awards ‘For the return of Crimea’ given to those who played a direct role in Russia’s annexation.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1551054011
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #981 on: February 26, 2019, 02:22:28 AM »
There are a fair number of Russian supporters and sympathisers here on the forum (& around the world)  whose disgusting rationalisation of Putin and his kleptocrats is ongoing -- despite all the obvious facts now in evidence. More keeps coming into the light everyday --  as good Ukrainians continue to be killed.maimed, injured  and displaced --let alone the intended negative affect on a free and democratic independent Ukraine.


JayH

It would be more accurate if you used the term Kremlin, rather than Russians as it portrays Russians as 'bad' and Ukrainians as 'good' ...  The truth is never as black and white as that ..

Of course the Kremlin manipulated the events leading up to the Crimea intervention E. Ukraine campaign and failed attempts to light up eth RU support in Odessa ..and achieve 'Novorossiya'  :puke:

The west were in retrospect naive to think that Putin wouldn't try to counter the anti-corruption moves to remove Yanu' and the moves to portray them as 'Nazi's' which was particularly insulting

You've been to Crimea .... it never felt Ukrainian to me - made up as it was of so many eth RU folk and military... It was an easy target .... places where the ethnicities are closer have not proven so easy to topple ..


Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #982 on: February 26, 2019, 02:56:13 AM »
    It was not just Odesa -- across many  cities  the paid Russian thugs attempted to lead/promote/support/pay/recruit a small minority of locals to join .
  What happened in Odesa represented a turning of the tide -- and showed  the Russians that Ukrainians would fight -- and effectively.

Explaining more -- many of the Russian paid thugs were bused around in relatively large numbers  and sent to create "support" etc and attempt to create violent scenes for the news -- ( the idea was to show Ukraine in chaos etc and in need of "help" via Russian occupation etc ) .
At the time --it was social media that saved Ukraine-- as activists gradually realised the Russian strategy and set about countering it via calls for help at the various locations being targeted. As an example  -- in a central Ukrainian city --the call for help was to confront   4 buses on the way to a local demonstration( in support of a free Ukraine)   and  the locals responded in numbers-- as the route and location was publicised the buses were stopped  20 kms out of the city. More and more arrived until it became clear that the locals were more than ready to take them on -- the buses were turned around that day .
That strategy was repeated in quite a few cities-- and social media was crucial in the organisation to resist.

I am going to repeat jone favourite story  of those days to illustrate why these groups were clearly not locals ( sorry Jon_) in Kharkiv -- a city in a extremely vulnerable position because of proximity to the Russian border -- the thugs were in hundreds  -- and were attempting to lead an "uprising" of locals -- so they invaded and captured what they thought was the city/town hall ( centre of local government)  --problem was they went to the most impressive building -- in the Opera House  !!

In Donetsk and Lugansk cities and towns -- any "uprising" was quickly supported by regular Russian special forces troops without markings -- then they would slide away to leave local puppets  to claim the success of the "local" revolt. Any local opposition was quickly put down.That was how control in the Donbas was passed to the Russians
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #983 on: February 26, 2019, 03:35:41 AM »
    It was not just Odesa -- across many  cities  the paid Russian thugs attempted to lead/promote/support/pay/recruit a small minority of locals to join .
  What happened in Odesa represented a turning of the tide -- and showed  the Russians that Ukrainians would fight -- and effectively.

Explaining more -- many of the Russian paid thugs were bused around in relatively large numbers  and sent to create "support" etc and attempt to create violent scenes for the news -- ( the idea was to show Ukraine in chaos etc and in need of "help" via Russian occupation etc ) .
At the time --it was social media that saved Ukraine-- as activists gradually realised the Russian strategy and set about countering it via calls for help at the various locations being targeted. As an example  -- in a central Ukrainian city --the call for help was to confront   4 buses on the way to a local demonstration( in support of a free Ukraine)   and  the locals responded in numbers-- as the route and location was publicised the buses were stopped  20 kms out of the city. More and more arrived until it became clear that the locals were more than ready to take them on -- the buses were turned around that day .
That strategy was repeated in quite a few cities-- and social media was crucial in the organisation to resist.

I am going to repeat jone favourite story  of those days to illustrate why these groups were clearly not locals ( sorry Jon_) in Kharkiv -- a city in a extremely vulnerable position because of proximity to the Russian border -- the thugs were in hundreds  -- and were attempting to lead an "uprising" of locals -- so they invaded and captured what they thought was the city/town hall ( centre of local government)  --problem was they went to the most impressive building -- in the Opera House  !!

In Donetsk and Lugansk cities and towns -- any "uprising" was quickly supported by regular Russian special forces troops without markings -- then they would slide away to leave local puppets  to claim the success of the "local" revolt. Any local opposition was quickly put down.That was how control in the Donbas was passed to the Russians

Indeed the GRU ( Kremlin's military intelligence )were behind most of the skullduggery  - but you gloss over how Poroshenko allowed Ukraine to be 'divvied up' in areas run by Oligarchs and their paid thugs, too ...

It's not that I do not disagree with much you post - you just see it through one set of eyes.








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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #984 on: February 26, 2019, 08:07:50 AM »
RUSSIAN INVASION OF ESTONIA

EPIX, a premium cable TV channel, has a fictionalized series named BERLIN STATION.  The story is about the CIA in modern day Berlin as it deals with contemporary political intrigue. 

The most recent season just concluded.  It centered on a Russian plot to regain Estonia.  The CIA agents in Berlin sniff out the plot and remark how it mirrors the Russian playbook in Ukraine.

A Russian oligarch finances and directs the plot of initiating a civil war between Estonian citizens and the resident Russian minority, allowing the Russian army to move in to restore peace.  The steps:

1.  Little green men are deployed secretly in critical areas of Estonia along with a cache of lethal weapons.  2.  The Estonia leader is assassinated (poison of course).
3.  The next leader in line is attacked with "fake news," and attempts are made to assassinate her. 
4.  Strife is created between Estonian citizens  and the Russian minority, such as tearing down Soviet monuments.
5.  The government and utilities are hacked, enabling the shutdown of the electrical grid, placing Tallinn in darkness.

CIA, FIS and KGB agents and counteragents are everywhere with subplots galore involving NATO members, et al.   

Not to worry, Captain America saves the day.  "U-S-A!"    "U-S-A!" 

Online krimster2

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #985 on: February 26, 2019, 08:16:30 AM »
“Indeed the GRU ( Kremlin's military intelligence )were behind most of the skullduggery  - but “


the GRU is just one branch of the conglomerate that represents the center of power in Russia.
this organization is HUGE and contains a military intelligence branch as you mention but also crime syndicates, the biggest corporations and all the top oligarchs and political figures
the children of the top 100 in Russia are now assuming positions of leadership and power
in essence creating a new monarchy in Russia
100 years after murdering the Romanovs
Russians are creating their new Czars
if you know Russians, then you realize this is the only way for them....



“you gloss over how Poroshenko allowed Ukraine to be 'divvied up' in areas run by Oligarchs”



don’t attribute this political patronage system to Poroshenko, it was there before he was born, indeed its roots go back centuries, google “boyar”,
the current Ukrainian system of regional clans is nothing more than the traditional hierarchical structure of Russian/Ukrainian society reflecting concentrations of local power


"It would be more accurate if you used the term Kremlin, rather than Russians as it portrays Russians as 'bad' and Ukrainians as 'good' ..."

right...
so then, how does it sound if Churchill said, “the reichstag bombed Cruxhaven last night” instead of saying “the focking Germans did it”
or "Nashiis" as he called 'em
ya hear me bruv?



BTW, looks like the USA has agreed to a hostage exchange, Maria Butina for two American captives
I guess that means she won't be able to testify regarding using the NRA to launder money from Russians to Trump campaign...


« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 08:24:51 AM by krimster2 »

Offline msmob

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #986 on: February 26, 2019, 08:31:16 AM »
YOU, don't want to get, ME, Krmster ...

There's plenty of Russians who aren't proud of their leader..... what do you suggest they do ?

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #987 on: February 26, 2019, 08:43:57 AM »
"what do you suggest they do ? "

keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...

did the RAF worry about the Germans who didn’t support Hitler in Dresden?

we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy
in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine
the truth about Trump and Russia comes out to the public and it’s worse than anyone could’ve imagined,
when the USA has a democratic congress and executive branch expect EXTREME measures taken in connection to Russia including removing them from SWIFT
expect Russia to take EXTREME countermeasures in relation to the West
we are already in a hybrid war with Russia, both USA and UK
because Trump is Putin’s pawn we’re not fighting back or even protecting ourself from Putin
but that will change and we will swing to the opposite extreme
there will be blood...and a new iron curtain will one day descend across Europe...
that is unless I can come up with a plan to prevent all this from happening!


« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 08:57:10 AM by krimster2 »

Offline msmob

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #988 on: February 26, 2019, 09:10:24 AM »
"what do you suggest they do ? "

keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...


Have you woke up still on a high from last night ?!    WHAT are you wittering about ...take a walk and clear your hard, man !


did the RAF worry about the Germans who didn’t support Hitler in Dresden?

Hardly, it was nearly five years into a vicious world war - and many question Bomber Harris' methods to this day

we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy

 :rolleyes:

in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine

Then there would be war ... on a grander scale


we are already in a hybrid war with Russia, both USA and UK

..there are a LOT more players and they are not on the Kremln's side ...

because Trump is Putin’s pawn we’re not fighting back or even protecting ourself from Putin
but that will change and we will swing to the opposite extreme
there will be blood...and a new iron curtain will one day descend across Europe...
that is unless I can come up with a plan to prevent all this from happening!

Don't let us disturb the benefits of your first hit of the day and VVP has already protected his loved ones with their 18 digit MIR cards ...

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #989 on: February 26, 2019, 09:30:57 AM »

in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine


Not very likely. Putin has been trying for the last few years to create at least a land bridge to Crimea and ultimately a land bridge to Moldova. He hasn't been able to.

Russia certainly has the military might to accomplish this but even Putin realizes the cost wouldn't just be war with Ukraine. The Americans and others would supply Ukraine with weapons. Putin couldn't claim those fighting Ukraine were soldiers there on vacation he'd have to admit it was war. Russia would suffer heavy losses.

The ruble now at about 65 rubles to 1 USD would probably drop to well over 100 rubles to 1 USD. Sanctions against the Russian state, Russian companies and individual Russians would intensify. The Russian economy would crash. The oligarchs would be very unhappy. Putin might even be in danger of being removed from power.

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #990 on: February 26, 2019, 09:51:55 AM »
"what do you suggest they do ? "

keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...


Russians are not keeping quiet!   

My wife, now in Siberia, says essentially everyone complains about Putin.    Even taxi drivers will speak openly to riders.   

The general complaint is that Putin does not care about the average Russian.  Food prices are high, and the quality is bad for items such as seafood.   

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #991 on: February 26, 2019, 10:11:07 AM »
Russians are not keeping quiet!   

My wife, now in Siberia, says essentially everyone complains about Putin.    Even taxi drivers will speak openly to riders.   

The general complaint is that Putin does not care about the average Russian.  Food prices are high, and the quality is bad for items such as seafood.

I know we all have a bias in the Ukraine/Russian conflict, and there is bias even among Russians about Putin after recent policy changes for pensioners. But the family I married into, has been greatly rewarded under Putin, some have prestigious positions. The Russians I know, support him strongly.

Since I haven't heard the Western Ukrainian argument presented well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being and I do believe that the coup was just NGO neo Nazi stooges that would gladly sell out their neighbors for a few kopeks. But that is simply an opinion. I will just add, Russians today are walking an anxiety tightrope; the need for respect, acceptable borders coupled with irrational personal insecurity means this conflict will continue and eventually escalate. I don't agree with Krimsters bold speculation of two thirds in a few years, but Russians will continue to solidify their position despite Western Sanctions
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 10:13:20 AM by GenMish »

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #992 on: February 26, 2019, 10:21:07 AM »

the truth about Trump and Russia comes out to the public and it’s worse than anyone could’ve imagined,



There you go again.  Trump gave lethal weapons to Ukraine.  Obama gave blankets and first-aid kits. 

For once, put on your American Patriot hat and examine the alternatives.  A reasonable person would want the current US administration to succeed diplomatically with Russia (and China, and NK, and VZ, and....). 


Quote
when the USA has a democratic congress and executive branch expect EXTREME measures taken in connection to Russia including removing them from SWIFT.......

That indeed would be an incredibly aggressive action, with huge consequences to the Russian economy.   


Quote
.....expect Russia to take EXTREME countermeasures in relation to the West

Of course!  Putin pushed into a corner will threaten a huge response.  Instead of bluffing as he has done in the past, he might  cut off energy supplies to Europe, undertake a limited yet strategic military action, etc.  Anything to create an economic downfall in the West. 

Which begs the question, why shake a hornet's nest? The Democrats are reckless, yet I do not think they would go to such extremes. 

Instead, let's see how this plays out.  It is  better to be talking with our enemies than risking a huge downside of diplomatic failure.    It will take time, but Putin may have to make some major changes internationally and domestically to keep the support of Russian citizens. 

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #993 on: February 26, 2019, 11:20:27 AM »
"    we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy


 :rolleyes:


polnium-210 contamination in London for first hit
novichok for second hit resulting in death of UK civilan
financing Brexit...
shooting down Dutch airliner

and the beat goes on....

Online krimster2

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #994 on: February 26, 2019, 11:27:56 AM »
“ well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being”

this is like stating that you believe the tooth fairy is real 'cuz you know a 3 year old who thinks so, and you’d rather accept that view than unnecessarily burden yourself with the unfamiliar task of independent thought and analysis...

how charming the village idiots must be where you come from, yet paradoxically sad as well...

Offline DaveNY

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #995 on: February 26, 2019, 11:46:56 AM »

 Anything to create an economic downfall in the West. 


Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. Putin would have trouble economically hurting one of Russia's large trading partners such Germany let alone the EU. Russia certainly couldn't hurt the US economically.

I'm certain Putin realizes his economic limitations. Cut off gas supplies to the EU and there goes a major source of badly needed foreign revenue for Russia. Then the EU increases sanctions on Russian firms and people and more problems for Russia. Then the Russian people start bad mouthing Putin in public and then there's whispers in the halls of power in Russia about who would be a good replacement for Putin.

Offline JayH

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #996 on: February 26, 2019, 03:42:47 PM »

Since I haven't heard the Western Ukrainian argument presented well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being and I do believe that the coup was just NGO neo Nazi stooges that would gladly sell out their neighbors for a few kopeks.



It is not a "western" Ukrainian "argument"  --it is Ukraine as a whole . Being sold on Russian lies and propaganda ( and comments from stupid insulated Russians) with the information available today -- plus the nonsense of a coup and the Nazi allegation--   all makes you a full on 100% idiotic moron. :cluebat:
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #997 on: February 26, 2019, 05:33:23 PM »
Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. Putin would have trouble economically hurting one of Russia's large trading partners such Germany let alone the EU. Russia certainly couldn't hurt the US economically.

My use of the word "downfall" is overblown, yet Russia can create waves.  Just consider the international economic effects of Soros moves to devalue the Thai Baht in 1997. 

Quote
I'm certain Putin realizes his economic limitations. Cut off gas supplies to the EU and there goes a major source of badly needed foreign revenue for Russia.


What good is foreign revenue if your businesses and banks are cutoff from the international banking transaction system?  I do not think you understand the huge economic impact on Russia of Krimster's aggressive idea to remove Russia from SWIFT.   

Quote
Then the EU increases sanctions on Russian firms and people and more problems for Russia.

Not many sanctions worse than removing SWIFT.  I suppose Russia could create an alternative transaction system for domestic transactions (ATMs), yet it would never be as effective.     


Quote
Then the Russian people start bad mouthing Putin in public...



According to my wife, it's already happening.


Quote
....and then there's whispers in the halls of power in Russia about who would be a good replacement for Putin.

Putin knows if he is replaced he will be imprisoned (or worse).  IMO he can not let it deteriorate that far.  So I assert he will do something dramatic to prevent the SWIFT removal or something even more dramatic if that fails.

Just my opinion.  No guarantee implied.   

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #998 on: February 26, 2019, 05:53:37 PM »
"Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. "

Osama Bin Ladin caused 100 billion of direct economic damage maybe a trillion loss in a recession and another trillion spent in Afghanistan
whadda ya think Putin and Iran could do, besides easily cutting off the flow of middle east oil and gas to the USA and elsewhere


Offline DaveNY

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Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #999 on: February 26, 2019, 09:06:35 PM »
"Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. "

Osama Bin Ladin caused 100 billion of direct economic damage maybe a trillion loss in a recession and another trillion spent in Afghanistan

Afghanistan is not the EU or US. Remember what happened to OBL? I doubt he spent his last few years prior to his death living the good life. Putin rattles the Russian economy too much and he might have a visit from a large group of Russian oligarchs and politicians suggesting it's time for him to retire.

whadda ya think Putin and Iran could do, besides easily cutting off the flow of middle east oil and gas to the USA and elsewhere

For the west, meaning Europe, the US, Canada, etc $100 billion is a rounding error in terms of their combined economies.

If Iran cut off the flow of oil through the Strait of Hormuz they might as well kiss their economy goodbye because most every country in the west would agree to sanctions against Iran. If Iran was stupid enough to launch an attack on American Navy vessels transiting the Strait the Iranian military in that part of Iran would be destroyed. If Iran persisted in their attacks and started lobbing missiles at Israel the war with Iran would be short. Occupation of Iran might be much longer.

Unless Russia wants war there's little Russia can do to the west, certainly not enough to lead to the economic downfall of the EU and US. Cut off the gas to the EU would hurt the EU economy but that lost revenue to Russia would hurt far more. The EU would survive it certainly wouldn't collapse. Would Russia? More importantly would Putin?

Russians like the better lifestyle imports from the around the world have given Russia. If Putin cut that off and Russia had to go back to a prolonged recession like in the late 90s or worse back to the lifestyle prior to the wall falling there very well might be a revolution in Russia. Russia would lose very badly in the long run.

 

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