Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[msmob]

Mr cut and paste.. thanks  for your reasoned 'riposte'

The subject of MH17 is vital to dismantling of the smokescreen of 'non invasion' eminating from the Kremlin and you manage to bore me on the subject.

I hardly think that was your aim...

It was noted you ducked the FACT that Ukraine should have closed the airspace ...   

[JayH]

Official confirmation of what has already been known and posted here some time go.
Perhaps the single strongest piece of confirmation is the precise identification of that exact missile ie a Russian history.

MH17 missile owned by Russian brigade, investigators say

The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014 belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say.

For the first time, the Dutch-led team said the missile had come from a unit based in western Russia.

All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

It was hit by a missile fired from rebel-held territory in Ukraine. Russia says none of its weapons was used.

But on Thursday Wilbert Paulissen, a Dutch official from the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), told reporters: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."

He restated the JIT's conclusion that the plane had been destroyed by a Russian-made Buk missile, adding that it had been supplied by the country's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade in Kursk.

At a news conference in the Dutch city of Utrecht, the investigators also showed social media pictures which they said traced the route the missile convoy had taken to reach eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44235402

[alex330]

So what is the international community going to do about it? That's the thing, it's a joke to the Russians, no consequences.

[DaveNY]

So what is the international community going to do about it? That's the thing, it's a joke to the Russians, no consequences.

The US has little trade with Russia so any reduction in trade would do little to punish Russia. Russia's major trading partners in the EU - Germany, Italy, France and other EU countries could hurt Russia with far more severe trade sanctions. IMO this won't happen. It's been a long time since the downing of MH17 and IMO nothing more will be done to punish Russia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Russia

[krimster2]

Russia's total foreign debts are over 500 billion
down over 200 billion since Crimea
so banks, etc are already unwinding Russian debts
that's the major exposure
plus oil and gas in Europe

[jone]

The simple fact is Russia is terrible at exporting things to other countries.  China is the number one destination for exporting.  Germany is the third highest export destination.  Those are expected. But the second biggest destination for Russian goods is the Netherlands. 

The Netherlands has a decision to make regarding the downing of MH-17.  At what point does this country tell Russia to stick their trade where the sun don't shine.  I've seen previous articles where that is discussed.  The greatest anger coming from this country is the constant misdirection from the Russian government and the refusal to accept culpability.

If I were Dutch, I would be thinking seriously about putting a surcharge on everything coming from Russia and using that money as a stipend to families that lost loved ones in the downing of the flight.  If the leaders of Russia won't admit to it, this would be a way of making Russia pay in spite of its unwillingness to admit the truth.

[krimster2]

putin's daughter lives in Holland!!!

[msmob]

Which one ? I read one had got divorced and a third was rumoured ..

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/2122082/vladimir-putin-has-31-year-old-daughter-he-doesnt

[BdHvA]

putin's daughter lives in Holland!!!

She and her Dutch husband departed The Netherlands shortly after the downing of MH-17.

[krimster2]

I'll leave a note on her door then!!

"Krimster skazal privet!!"

I'm sure she will appreciate it and maybe even mention me to papa!!!

[JayH]

Various issues touched on in posts above by a few different people.There was never any doubt to me that the US had exactly the precise info on what had happened and who was responsible. The Obama wishy washy pathetic administration appeasement policy  towards Russian aggression has only had the affect to empower Putin -- and the subsequent interference in the American elections is just another example of what happens when a direct confrontation is avoided at all  cost.

There is an irony in that many Trump supporters believe that America should pull it's troops and bases ( & the costs) out of overseas situations --pretty much the same intent Obama had in not getting involved in Ukraine.
Back at the time of the Russian invasion  I repeatedly said that ground troops were not required -- but air cover , arms and logistical support for Ukrainian ground troops ( & other countries that were prepared to send troops ( notably Poland).

After the shooting down of the aircraft Australia -- with a Prime Minister who did take some good advice he got ( !!) and came to understand the situation very well -- did issue some hostile statements towards Russia and with the Australian foreign minister -- sought US assistance to do something about it. In fact -- the Australian SAS were moved to a stand-by position . Advance intelligence went to the area and looked at what could be done. They were on the ground learning what they could. Australia was not alone in looking closely -- the US guys were right there too !!There is a history of Australian SAS leading attacks and being in the forefront in cooperation with US forces-- and a willingness and desire for Australia wanting to get involved was more than enough for the US guys on the ground to want to support them.

Amongst much that they learnt was that it was no group of armed locals in an uprising but the Russian military that was on the other side. After they( Australians)  had initially thought they could go after the leaders of the so called "militant groups  they came to realise who they were really facing and the complexities that created.

So -- as this all went back upstream the political leaders and policies ran over the emotions that all felt on the ground.Now 4 years later-- the confirmation of what actually took place is now proven-  something the US could have said at day ! !!




"President Barack Obama could have done the same four years ago, letting the world know just what the Kremlin did by releasing relevant intelligence, yet he chose not to do so. The pushback which Western countries are finally mustering over the murder of 298 innocent people, while admirable, is long overdue. It could – and should – have happened in late July 2014, led by the United States. This is just another example of the Obama administration’s troubling unwillingness to confront Putin and his regime over its mounting crimes and misdemeanors. By refusing to take a stand against Russian aggression, President Obama encouraged more of it—culminating in direct Kremlin interference in our 2016 election, with fateful consequences we are living with today."

This tragedy is back in the news this week because Dutch investigators have announced that the Russian military’s 53rd Air Defense Missile Brigade was the outfit which shot down MH17. Normally based in Kursk, not far from the border with Ukraine, that brigade was known to have deployed subunits in eastern Ukraine in 2014, so this conclusion is no surprise to anyone who watches Kremlin military news closely. Today, the foreign ministers of the Netherlands and Australia upped the ante, issuing a joint statement holding Russia responsible for this atrocity—Australia lost 27 citizens in the crash—and Western countries are already signing on to this conclusion, with Germany taking the lead. Predictably, the Kremlin is pushing back, implying that it is the victim of a nefarious smear campaign, but there is now so much evidence of Moscow’s guilt in the public domain that the usual Russian disinformation tricks are no longer working in the West outside the ranks of confirmed Putinphiles.

The Top Secret Scandal Behind the Kremlin’s MH17 Massacre

For their part, the Kremlin and its propagandists for nearly four years now have played their customary fact-free games of spies and lies, claiming that the gruesome end of MH17 was caused by Ukraine somehow, despite there being zero evidence to back up that assertion. It is an established fact that the missile which killed 298 innocent people was fired by a Russian weapons system located in an area under Russian military occupation that day. No amount of Muscovite disinformation can change that awful reality.

Then there’s the awkward fact that our Intelligence Community has known the full, terrible story of the MH17 shootdown from practically the moment it happened. Thanks to American acumen in SIGINT and satellite imagery, spies in Washington within mere days of the disaster knew who did it—and how the nightmare unfolded. As reported by The Washington Post only five days after the crash, American intelligence knew that the Kremlin was lying about its innocence in this sordid affair. The Obama White House authorized a limited release of intelligence information, based on “sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites” as the Post put it, to rebut Kremlin disinformation about the incident.

However, this was a tiny fraction of what our Intelligence Community knew about MH17. As three IC officials have confirmed to me, Washington possessed damning information about the shootdown, including SIGINT which left no doubt that the Russian military—specifically the 53rd Air Defense Missile Brigade—downed the airliner. Detailed, top-secret intelligence from the National Security Agency, which the White House was briefed on within a couple days of the disaster, told the tale. Nevertheless, the Obama administration elected to sit on this bombshell, allowing dishonest Kremlin narratives to gain traction as the public tried to ascertain what exactly had happened to the doomed jetliner.



http://observer.com/2018/05/kremlin-responds-to-netherlands-australia-blame-russia-for-mh17-crash/

[JayH]

The  path to making Russia pay is not so easy -- too many get the $ benefits to have the stomach to really hurt Putin & Russia.

Australia to seek diplomatic backup against Russia over MH17 atrocity

Australia and the Netherlands accused the Russian Federation on Friday of being directly involved in the downing of MH17 on July 17, 2014, following the release of a report conducted by the Joint Investigation Team, which included Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine.


http://www.afr.com/news/australia-to-seek-diplomatic-backup-against-russia-over-mh17-atrocity-20180527-h10lkz

[jone]

Various issues touched on in posts above by a few different people.There was never any doubt to me that the US had exactly the precise info on what had happened and who was responsible. The Obama wishy washy pathetic administration appeasement policy  towards Russian aggression has only had the affect to empower Putin -- and the subsequent interference in the American elections is just another example of what happens when a direct confrontation is avoided at all  cost.

There is an irony in that many Trump supporters believe that America should pull it's troops and bases ( & the costs) out of overseas situations --pretty much the same intent Obama had in not getting involved in Ukraine.
Back at the time of the Russian invasion  I repeatedly said that ground troops were not required -- but air cover , arms and logistical support for Ukrainian ground troops ( & other countries that were prepared to send troops ( notably Poland).

After the shooting down of the aircraft Australia -- with a Prime Minister who did take some good advice he got ( !!) and came to understand the situation very well -- did issue some hostile statements towards Russia and with the Australian foreign minister -- sought US assistance to do something about it. In fact -- the Australian SAS were moved to a stand-by position . Advance intelligence went to the area and looked at what could be done. They were on the ground learning what they could. Australia was not alone in looking closely -- the US guys were right there too !!There is a history of Australian SAS leading attacks and being in the forefront in cooperation with US forces-- and a willingness and desire for Australia wanting to get involved was more than enough for the US guys on the ground to want to support them.

Amongst much that they learnt was that it was no group of armed locals in an uprising but the Russian military that was on the other side. After they( Australians)  had initially thought they could go after the leaders of the so called "militant groups  they came to realise who they were really facing and the complexities that created.

So -- as this all went back upstream the political leaders and policies ran over the emotions that all felt on the ground.Now 4 years later-- the confirmation of what actually took place is now proven-  something the US could have said at day ! !!




"President Barack Obama could have done the same four years ago, letting the world know just what the Kremlin did by releasing relevant intelligence, yet he chose not to do so. The pushback which Western countries are finally mustering over the murder of 298 innocent people, while admirable, is long overdue. It could – and should – have happened in late July 2014, led by the United States. This is just another example of the Obama administration’s troubling unwillingness to confront Putin and his regime over its mounting crimes and misdemeanors. By refusing to take a stand against Russian aggression, President Obama encouraged more of it—culminating in direct Kremlin interference in our 2016 election, with fateful consequences we are living with today."

This tragedy is back in the news this week because Dutch investigators have announced that the Russian military’s 53rd Air Defense Missile Brigade was the outfit which shot down MH17. Normally based in Kursk, not far from the border with Ukraine, that brigade was known to have deployed subunits in eastern Ukraine in 2014, so this conclusion is no surprise to anyone who watches Kremlin military news closely. Today, the foreign ministers of the Netherlands and Australia upped the ante, issuing a joint statement holding Russia responsible for this atrocity—Australia lost 27 citizens in the crash—and Western countries are already signing on to this conclusion, with Germany taking the lead. Predictably, the Kremlin is pushing back, implying that it is the victim of a nefarious smear campaign, but there is now so much evidence of Moscow’s guilt in the public domain that the usual Russian disinformation tricks are no longer working in the West outside the ranks of confirmed Putinphiles.

The Top Secret Scandal Behind the Kremlin’s MH17 Massacre

For their part, the Kremlin and its propagandists for nearly four years now have played their customary fact-free games of spies and lies, claiming that the gruesome end of MH17 was caused by Ukraine somehow, despite there being zero evidence to back up that assertion. It is an established fact that the missile which killed 298 innocent people was fired by a Russian weapons system located in an area under Russian military occupation that day. No amount of Muscovite disinformation can change that awful reality.

Then there’s the awkward fact that our Intelligence Community has known the full, terrible story of the MH17 shootdown from practically the moment it happened. Thanks to American acumen in SIGINT and satellite imagery, spies in Washington within mere days of the disaster knew who did it—and how the nightmare unfolded. As reported by The Washington Post only five days after the crash, American intelligence knew that the Kremlin was lying about its innocence in this sordid affair. The Obama White House authorized a limited release of intelligence information, based on “sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites” as the Post put it, to rebut Kremlin disinformation about the incident.

However, this was a tiny fraction of what our Intelligence Community knew about MH17. As three IC officials have confirmed to me, Washington possessed damning information about the shootdown, including SIGINT which left no doubt that the Russian military—specifically the 53rd Air Defense Missile Brigade—downed the airliner. Detailed, top-secret intelligence from the National Security Agency, which the White House was briefed on within a couple days of the disaster, told the tale. Nevertheless, the Obama administration elected to sit on this bombshell, allowing dishonest Kremlin narratives to gain traction as the public tried to ascertain what exactly had happened to the doomed jetliner.



http://observer.com/2018/05/kremlin-responds-to-netherlands-australia-blame-russia-for-mh17-crash/

Ya know, it seems rather funny that you would castigate the Obama administration over his lack of action at the time of the MH17 debacle.   This is just the type of thing that Trump would jump on.  Like the retaliatory attacks against Syria using gas attacks on its citizens. 

[JayH]

Ya know, it seems rather funny that you would castigate the Obama administration over his lack of action at the time of the MH17 debacle.   This is just the type of thing that Trump would jump on.  Like the retaliatory attacks against Syria using gas attacks on its citizens.

Even without considering the Trump ignorance in attempting to sell Ukraine down the Russian drain  !!!  --- there  was a short time after election that I thought maybe the Trump unpredictability could be an asset in dealing with Putin & Russia . Unfortunately -- the Trump desire to cosy up to Putin was his priority.
The way I now see Trump foreign  interaction is that it is far too ad hoc and inconsistent to be taken seriously. If -- that is IF -- he used the same style of confrontational words he aimed at North Korea  and told Russia to get out of ALL Ukraine --or else --then he might have looked like he was doing more than our silly Billy1 here on the forum in his willy waving !!

[ML]

Perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere . . .

As despicable as the Iranian leaders are, it now appears they are less despicable than the Russian leaders.

i.e.  Iran finally 'fessed up' to shooting down a civilian airplane.

Our own Gator has stated before that Iranian people are the most dishonest or distrustworthy in the world (or something like that).  Should this be revised?

Wife reads Russian news and discussion groups (and Ukrainian also) on Internet, even as it makes her ill and mad (don't know why she continues).

She says that most Russians firmly believe that Ukraine shot down MH17.

Putin is a master at propaganda and misinformation.
He makes Joseph Goebbels look like a piker.

[msmob]

I'm not sure your wife is dealing with the majority of Russians when she views forums, given the utter control the Kremlin has on ownership of social media.

VVP is not as popular as those controlling who gets to speak out would have us believe!)

[Gator]

Our own Gator has stated before that Iranian people are the most dishonest or distrustworthy in the world (or something like that).  Should this be revised?

They are still bottom feeders IMO, but their admission suggests an opportunity to improve.  The admission is possibly a watershed event.

Wife reads Russian news and discussion groups (and Ukrainian also) on Internet, even as it makes her ill and mad (don't know why she continues).

She says that most Russians firmly believe that Ukraine shot down MH17.

One difference here.  In this household, they say Ukrainians (not Ukraine) shot down MH17.   The subject is changed when I mention the responsible Ukrainians were separatists loyal to Russia.  Or that the responsible missile weapon was Russian military equipment recently deployed to the Ukraine battlefield from Russia and then trucked back immediately after the plane was downed.   Or that the equipment was very complicated and would have necessitated using trained Russian operators rather than Ukrainian separatists. 

  Putin is a master at propaganda and misinformation.
He makes Joseph Goebbels look like a piker.
 

Sadly, America's media is practicing disinformation too.   

[Shadow]

One difference here.  In this household, they say Ukrainians (not Ukraine) shot down MH17.   The subject is changed when I mention the responsible Ukrainians were separatists loyal to Russia.  Or that the responsible missile weapon was Russian military equipment recently deployed to the Ukraine battlefield from Russia and then trucked back immediately after the plane was downed.   Or that the equipment was very complicated and would have necessitated using trained Russian operators rather than Ukrainian separatists. 

This has shown by the Iranian fiasco.Unfortunately the admitting of a mistake is something that was not made available with MH17.

[Gator]

This has shown by the Iranian fiasco.Unfortunately the admitting of a mistake is something that was not made available with MH17.

Many Dutch men, women and children died with the downing of MH17.   And unlike Iran, no one involved apologized. 


Does the Netherlands harbor any animosity towards Putin, Russia or Ukraine because of this? 

[Confederate]

They are still bottom feeders IMO, but their admission suggests an opportunity to improve.  The admission is possibly a watershed event.


One difference here.  In this household, they say Ukrainians (not Ukraine) shot down MH17.   The subject is changed when I mention the responsible Ukrainians were separatists loyal to Russia.  Or that the responsible missile weapon was Russian military equipment recently deployed to the Ukraine battlefield from Russia and then trucked back immediately after the plane was downed.   Or that the equipment was very complicated and would have necessitated using trained Russian operators rather than Ukrainian separatists. 


Sadly, America's media is practicing disinformation too.

Oh you think?

24/7

[GQBlues]

...Sadly, America's media is practicing disinformation too. 

...and considering the prevalence of Americans to fall for fake news and actually believe them, will ML's line of thinking make the entire American population equally culpable? After all, Hillary did in fact garnered the 'popular' votes in 2016.

[Confederate]

...and considering the prevalence of Americans to fall for fake news and actually believe them, will ML's line of thinking make the entire American population equally culpable? After all, Hillary did in fact garnered the 'popular' votes in 2016.

Sure she did. Never mind that the DNC has a lot of dead people voting and illegal Hispanics voting who they bus from precinct to precinct.

 

[mhr7]

Sure she did. Never mind that the DNC has a lot of dead people voting and illegal Hispanics voting who they bus from precinct to precinct.

 

Ptove it. No looney RW sources please. Never mind, those are the only sources you'll find.

[jone]

Ptove it. No looney RW sources please.

I'll double down on that.   There has been no evidence that illegals were systematically voting in 2016.  However, the Democrats were successful in influencing one election.   They did bus thousands of voters from Massachusetts to New Hampshire.   This was done strategically, logistically and legally.   

As a result this state elected a Democratic senator and Hillary won the state.  One bright star in an otherwise dismal election for the Dems.

I will say that Hillary did a great job of campaigning in Wisconsin.   NOT!

[Confederate]

Ptove it. No looney RW sources please.

Someday when we again have a truly free and independent press conducting real investigative journalism we’ll be able to prove a lot of things. The evidence is there however unfortunately your party doesn’t want the American people to know the truth and some average members of your party contribute to the dishonesty by preferring to look the other way, similar to what ML alluded to.

“Absolute power corrupts and power corrupts absolutely” is how it works when the modern American media are no longer journalists and only extensions of the DNC propaganda machine.