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Author Topic: Prospects for Crimea return  (Read 42067 times)

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Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #150 on: August 20, 2018, 06:00:03 PM »
“Yes, perhaps in Ukraine it wasn’t much better in the economic and everyday sense, but there you at least had freedom. You could go out and say that it’s all bad”.

According to Polozov, prices in Crimea are on a par with Moscow, which means higher than in other parts of Russia and a third higher than in Kyiv.

Nothing so unfavourable will be heard, of course, on Crimean and Russian state media.  Polozov calls the “recipe for Russian propaganda simple. Take Goebel’s technology, add Rockefeller’s (or in this case, Rotenberg’s) money, and you get Putin’s product.”

For Putin, he adds, the mass media is no less important than the fleet or army, and there are no independent media in Crimea at all.  They’ve been destroyed.

Russia is also using Soviet methods to try to jam and obstruct Crimeans from hearing Ukrainian media

Russian lawyer reports mounting disillusionment with Russia in occupied Crimea

Polozov calls the situation in Crimea specific.  “All the negative phenomena and processes that one sees in the Russian Federation are now being actively cultivated in Crimea.  This is the inculcation of a police state and militarization”.

Even the people who did not support Ukraine, have descended into a state of apathy and disillusionment.

Polozov says that Crimean society can be divided into certain social groups.  The first group is of people connected with the state, including the police, courts and military.  They continue to support Russian occupation.   Polozov notes also the significant moves Russia has made since annexation to change the demographic balance in Crimea.  Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people are being brought in from Russia, with a lot of these people – members of the FSB, National Guard, OMON riot police, etc. The major construction work carried out, such as the road between Kerch, Simferopol and Sevastopol is all done by people brought in from Russia.  He says that on principle they don’t take Crimeans.

As reported earlier, many of the enforcement officers, prosecutors, etc., whether Crimeans who switched allegiance or people from Russia, receive housing and other incentives effectively in exchange for their loyalty.

Those Crimeans whose livelihood depended on tourism or agriculture are obviously disillusioned, Polozov says, adding that a lot of them now note that the difference between the present situation and that under Ukrainian government control lies in the freedom they had.

“Yes, perhaps in Ukraine it wasn’t much better in the economic and everyday sense, but there you at least had freedom. You could go out and say that it’s all bad”.



http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1534792109
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #151 on: August 20, 2018, 06:32:01 PM »
Ongoing Russian nonsense.

One of the most important  decisions  that Ukraine made back in 2014 was that improving Ukraine was a way to win hearts and minds--- and to a degree that has happened -- albeit not without a lot of pain for ordinary Ukrainians.

Russia’s FSB needs Ukrainian ‘saboteurs’ in occupied Crimea – fictitious ones will do

The FSB in Russian-occupied Crimea is looking for ‘saboteurs’, but not at all in the way that security services in other countries do.  Moscow and its enforcement bodies are desperate for ‘Ukrainian enemies’ to justify the rising militarism and distract from the dramatic price increases and slump in tourism and agriculture since annexation.  The FSB also need to arrest ‘saboteurs’, ‘terrorists’ and ‘extremists’ for their statistics, with this ensuring them bonuses and promotion.

All of the above means that when there aren’t real saboteurs or terrorists to be caught, you invent them.  You use a fictitious ‘terrorist plot’ to arrest four opponents of Russia’s invasion and sentence one of them, Ukrainian filmmaker Oleg Sentsov to 20 years for quite literally nothing and civic activist Oleksandr Kolchenko to 10 years for a small part in the throwing of a Molotov cocktail at the deserted office of a pro-Russian organization.

The FSB were busy with other forms of political persecution during the next two years, and it was only in August and November 2016 that the next waves of arrests for supposed ‘sabotage plots’ began.   

The lack of any acts of sabotage linked with all these subsequent arrests would not necessarily prove the absence of criminal plans.  It would, however, warrant close attention to indications that the men’s ‘confessions’ had been made under duress and to grave violations of their right to a fair trial.

During August 2016, Russian state television showed FSB-made videos showing ‘confessions’ from four men: Yevhen Panov; Andriy Zakhtei; Ridvan Suleymanov and Volodymyr Prysich.

None of them mentioned each other, and simply repeated claims about sabotage plans on instructions from Ukraine’s military intelligence.  Panov, the first to be seen, showed obvious signs of having been beaten.

The men were filmed in rooms with only an unnamed FSB officer outside the camera’s view   There was nothing to indicate that they had seen a lawyer, nor that they had been allowed any contact with relatives, etc.

It took intervention from the European Court of Human Rights before Russia allowed Panov to see a lawyer.  He immediately retracted all testimony as extracted by torture. The same allegations of torture have been made by Prysich and Zakhtei.

A further damning detail is that the subsequent convictions of both Suleymanov and Prysich bore little or absolutely no relation to their confessions.

It was also Panov, who held out against pressure to accept guilt for promises of a shorter sentence, who got the longest 8-year term of imprisonment (details here).

The FSB had learned two lessons from its resounding failure to convince an international audience that Ukraine had been planning ‘incursions’ on its own illegally occupied territory.  It had been a mistake to arrest men who had never set eyes on each other, as alleged conspirators.  It was also unwise to make the supposed ‘mastermind’ Panov, since his family was safely in mainland Ukraine, removing one of the levers the FSB use to force prisoners to ‘cooperate’.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1534701086
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #152 on: August 20, 2018, 06:39:45 PM »
I can report that what you are stating here is true
there IS growing disillusionment, but it IS unevenly felt
and the disillusion is offset by non-stop propaganda, “Putin is great, every single problem Russia has is caused by America, so Putin must continue to stand up against America”
and then 10 minutes later another version of this
even when I lived there 10 years ago, Russian TV was full of “National Symbols” designed to manipulate people’s emotions, it seems like the great patriotic war is the only experience Russia has ever had

the disillusion isn’t about politics but about economics, people in Crimea were promised
a better future, but for some it went the other way. maybe 40% of Crimea’s population works for the Russian government in some way, these people have seen some improvement compared to the Ukrainian period, but for most of the remainder living standards have diminished
some sections of the economy are completely dead like agriculture

I detected some kind of tension in senior Russian officers regarding Putin, but this subject was off limits.  my feeling is they don’t like the orders they are being given

when I was bicycling in Crimea a few weeks ago, I experienced the eerie sensation that there was an approaching storm, but the sky was perfectly clear

something is coming, you can feel it in the air
and military equipment is unloaded in Sevastopol and trucked to Simferopol and then put on a train headed North, and again the next day, the tops of the shipping containers are camouflaged
but the sides not as much, you can see the artillery and Iskanders!!!!

locals are being conscripted, villages have no young men
everything is being prepared

Ukrainian saboteurs in Russia?
wait until you see what Russia is going to send Ukraine!!!!!
thousands... some shock battalions are being trained at Belbeck...they have awful Training manuals!!!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:52:39 PM by krimster2 »

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #153 on: September 11, 2018, 02:17:37 PM »
Russian lawyer reports mounting disillusionment with Russia in occupied Crimea
This has no influence on the prospects of the Crimea returning to Ukraine. Likewise, their illusions about prosperity with the RF (Russian Fascists) did not matter when it came to Muscovy occupying the Crimea. The majority of the population of the Crimea are idiots who are easily influenced by propaganda and rumors and seldom use their own brains (I state this after living there for 10 years since 2004 until 2014), but what mattered then and what will matter in the future is the position of the Ukrainian government, its readiness to defend Ukraine and claim back occupied territories, the strength (and availability at all) of the Ukrainian army on the one hand, and similar factors on the other side. In other words, when Ukraine was left effectively without a government, without an army, Muscovy took the advantage of the sitatution, and the opinions of the Crimeans did not really matter. Likewise, when the RF finally collapses, no one is going to bother whether the Crimeans want to be part of Ukraine again or not. The Crimea will simply return to Ukraine.

In other words, if there is a barn full of sheep and someone fakes up papers and becomes an illegal owner while the real owner is sick or away, it does not really matter if he treats the sheep well or not while temporarily 'owning' the barn. When the law finally prevails, the barn shall be given to the true owner whatever the sheep 'think' or bleat and it shall happen, not because the sheep want or don’t want the barn to be retrieved but because of other reasons.
Igor Kalinin
Ukraine Guide Interpreter

Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2018, 08:10:38 PM »

 The is little doubt that Russia is planning for the day that serious pressure arrives to remove themselves from Crimea. For those without a crystal ball-- Russia will try to force a vote of where Crimea should be aligned -- and of course if you have displaced the MAJORITY that preferred Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion in 2014 and replaced them with Russian puppets  etc etc All the more reason to never allow a vote to happen.

Since the Russian occupation of Crimea began four years ago, the combination of its longtime residents being forced to leave and new people from Russia arriving means that 20 percent of the population consists of people who did not earlier live on the Ukrainian peninsula, a shift that reflects a Kremlin policy that approaches the definition of genocide.

Over the last four years, Russian government data and Ukrainian estimates show that 268,000 people have arrived in Crimean and Sevastopol while 153,600 have left, something that has boosted the ethnic Russian share of the population to 20 percent or more.


Russians moving into occupied Crimea now form one-fifth of its population

Given shortcomings in the data, all three of these numbers almost certainly understate the size of these changes, with more arriving, more departing, and more Russians in the population.

Still more troubling, the official statistics show that the number of new arrivals has remained stable while that of departures has increased in the last year alone.

Russian officials have mostly stopped talking about this development, Eurasianet reports. But Crimean and Ukrainian officials have expressed mounting concern. Yevhenia Goryunova, a Crimean political analyst, refers to the departures as a form of “’soft deportation,’” by which Moscow achieves its goals by imposing unbearable conditions on the population.

As a result, “Crimeans are ever more often becoming aliens in their own land which is rapidly being populated by Russians,” most of whom are siloviki or government employees. As a result, Goryunova suggests, the trend will continue, with ever more natives leaving, ever more Russians arriving and the population gradually falling.


“Russia doesn’t need those who ever more often recall that they lived better when the peninsula was under Ukrainian administration. It does not want to see on the peninsula those who despite harsh restrictions are nonetheless ready to take part in protests – even when these are not political but a defense of business and property,” Goryunova says.

The portion of the population that the Russian occupiers are most interested in pushing out consists of the Crimean Tatars, according to Iryna Pribytkova of the Kyiv Institute of Sociology at the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences. They are being “provoked” into leaving as part of Russian occupation policy.

Russia’s Kerch Bridge will only accelerate this process, she adds, allowing Moscow to introduce more military technology and personnel and thus isolate and push out the Crimean Tatars and other non-Russians.
 

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/10/19/russians-moving-into-occupied-crimea-now-form-one-fifth-of-its-population/
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2018, 08:32:21 PM »
Jay,

I have some GOOD and some BAD news!
first, the good!
Ukraine will soon be reunited with Crimea!
now the bad!
this will happen after Russia invades the rest of Ukraine in 2019!

Putin, was ALMOST deterred by your posts on RWD
but, after the pension fiasco, needs a poll boost!
so he decided to go ahead with the invasion and hire a troll army to counter your posts here on RWD!!!
he made your defeat a top priority with an unlimited budget!
didn'y you read about it in the indictment of Elena Alekseevna Khusyaynova ?
creating a troll army to attack you was on page 2!
 



« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:42:02 PM by krimster2 »

Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2018, 08:46:07 PM »
Jay,

I have some GOOD and some BAD news!
first, the good!
Ukraine will soon be reunited with Crimea!
now the bad!
this will happen after Russia invades the rest of Ukraine in 2019!

Putin, was ALMOST deterred by your posts on RWD
but, after the pension fiasco, needs a poll boost!
so he decided to go ahead with the invasion and hire a troll army to counter your posts here on RWD!!!
he made your defeat a top priority with an unlimited budget!
didn'y you read about it in the indictment of Elena Alekseevna Khusyaynova ?
creating a troll army to attack you was on page 2!


Crimea belongs to Russia, wether people like it or not. What happens in 2019, nobody knows, so its not news, its a wishfull thinking.
Kaplah!

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2018, 08:55:05 PM »
I was in Crimea about three months ago watching the Russian military train specifically for the upcoming invasion of Ukraine, everyone in Crimea knows about this, it's NO secret...
took pictures inside a training camp for what's called a "shock battalion" where they're going into Ukraine dressed as civilians but armed to take over major control points
it's supposed to happen in summer 2019!

OR thousands of Russian military personnel were all playing an elaborate practical joke on me to get me to THINK they're going to invade
guess we'll have to wait until summer to see...



Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2018, 09:25:24 PM »

Crimea belongs to Russia, wether people like it or not. What happens in 2019, nobody knows, so its not news, its a wishfull thinking.

Yeah ,right -- and the laws of the civilised world says otherwise !

Even where it was the denunciation that drew the FSB’s attention to a person, there may be serious questions about the motives of those who made them.  This can range from money or career enhancement to person animosity.   The atmosphere of distrust in occupied Crimea has almost certainly been encouraged by the occupation authorities, which have also publicly called on Crimeans to inform on fellow citizens posting leaflets which they label as ‘anti-Russian’ and ‘extremist’.


Win a smartphone in Russia by denouncing neighbours for ‘extremism’


Anonymous denunciations of neighbours or workmates are no longer a bad memory from the Stalin era.  ‘Informing’ the Russian security service [FSB] or authorities of ‘extremist’ or ‘anti-Russian’ activities has long been encouraged, often rewarded, in Russia under President Vladimir Putin, and denunciations, anonymous or otherwise, are also being used to spread fear and distrust in Crimea under Russian occupation.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1539552592&fbclid=IwAR3z1j_ZD2TqTg61_80m3t8j-giDk3LSUvmTqVAAD0mZlIYQ3fjvAHccz_E
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2018, 09:36:35 PM »

----Yeah ,right -- and the laws of the civilised world says otherwise---

------ every country has it's own laws. The world may say what they want, but de facto as it stands now Crimea belongs to RF. 
Kaplah!

Offline JayH

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Ukrainians believe Crimea is part of Ukraine
« Reply #160 on: October 22, 2018, 05:22:47 PM »
The idea some have tried to sell Ukrainians on to achieve peace on the mainland is now well and truly squashed as an acceptable idea. Over time Ukrainians have come to realise that there can be no appeasing of Russia -- Putin will do whatever he chooses at any given time to achieve his ends -- and pay lip service to any agreement made .

Even on this forum -- some here ( people that want the best for Ukraine) have thought out loud on the concept. The sense of Ukrainian identity is stronger than ever -- and that will only grow if Ukraine can continue to make progress .

The overwhelming majority (69%) of Ukrainians believe that Crimea should remain part of Ukraine and they are not ready to exchange it for Donbas, according to a nationwide poll

Ukrainians believe Crimea is part of Ukraine

"Starting from 2016, Ukrainians have consistently expressed an opinion that Crimea should remain part of Ukraine and the share of citizens who say so is 69% of the population of Ukraine. Over 80% of respondents in the country's western and central regions share the conviction that Crimea belongs to Ukraine, in the south - 56%, and in the east - 45%," the foundation's analyst, Serhiy Shapovalov, said at a round table meeting at Ukrinform, while presenting the results of the survey.

At the same time, an absolute minority in the south and the east supports Crimea's belonging to Russia - 3% and 10% respectively. Instead, a certain part of the population of these regions believes that Crimea should be independent (24% in the south and 18% in the east).

"Despite the great complex of problems that Ukraine has today, most Ukrainians (66%) consider it unacceptable to accept the proposal to 'swap' Crimea for Donbas, that is, to recognize the annexed Crimea as Russian 'in exchange' for Russia's withdrawal from the occupied territories of the Donbas (such 'exchange' is supported by 16%)," Shapovalov said

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2563579-ukrainians-believe-crimea-is-part-of-ukraine-not-ready-to-exchange-it-for-donbas-poll.html?fbclid=IwAR3EutcRdRH4t6ipYbOXoX8vRJwQ-ISJS_KOOcP51hQtr8zp6XpHql8-aOk
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2019, 01:42:06 AM »

Crimea belongs to Russia, wether people like it or not.
Stolen things do not belong to the thieves who temporarily hold them.


OxfordDictionary (En-En)
belong
verb [no obj.]
1) (belong to) be the property of


Stolen things are not property. They are called loot, booty, spoil.


If you put your hand into someone else’s pocket and remove something while they are asleep, sick or unconscious or simply do not expect this because you pretended to be their friend or brother, this thing does not belong to you just because you have it in your hands until they gain strength and take it back or law enforcement comes for you and the law finally prevails.


Use the correct language.
Igor Kalinin
Ukraine Guide Interpreter

 

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