Minimum Wage debate - USA

[fathertime]

I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage.  These people are working!  The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do.  I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them.  If people doing these jobs don't have enough to live on, then bad things can happen.  If minimum wage is to remain low, then I'm glad there is a strong welfare system in place because too many people can fall through the crack, and that is not good for society as a whole.   This has nothing to do with socialism, which is a less-preferred system for me personally. I've read how well our society is doing as a whole, so kicking down to those that work hardest is a good thing! 


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Not only is UPS had a reputation of a great company to work for (according to my family that worked there), .

My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't.   The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard?   HARDLY!   He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course.  He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person.  This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money.  It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers.  He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!     


Fathertime!   

[AC]

I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage.  These people are working!  The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do.  I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them.

Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country.  That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers.  Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country.  It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico.  Stop the illegal amnesties, stop the vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.

[fathertime]

Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country.  That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers.  Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country.  It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico.  Stop the illegal amnesties, stop their vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.

Well AC the vast majority of people that came here illegally are here to say.  I thought we should have made efforts to close off the flow a decade or more ago, but it did not happen.  One thing about keeping our economy growing is that we seem to need a growing population base to do that.  A lot of those adult illegals are helping elders in their final years,(and other necessary jobs a kid wouldn't do) so it is not all bad. 


All in all, I'd like to see far fewer illegals coming, but the ones that are here...I'm sorry to say but at this point a lot of them need to go through the steps to be legalized, at least to some extent...so we can hopefully move on and try to solve the issue going forward.   


Fathertime! 

[AC]

My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't.   The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard?   HARDLY!   He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course.  He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person.  This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money.  It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers.  He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!     

Or depending on who is working for you, fingerbreaking.   

[AC]

Well AC the vast majority of people that came here illegally are here to say.  I thought we should have made efforts to close off the flow a decade or more ago, but it did not happen.  One thing about keeping our economy growing is that we seem to need a growing population base to do that.  A lot of those adult illegals are helping elders in their final years,(and other necessary jobs a kid wouldn't do) so it is not all bad. 


All in all, I'd like to see far fewer illegals coming, but the ones that are here...I'm sorry to say but at this point a lot of them need to go through the steps to be legalized, at least to some extent...so we can hopefully move on and try to solve the issue going forward.   

Sounds like a losers speech to me; like so many other Politicians who give speeches.  We haven't had a President with backbone since Ike.  Here is what he did when the problem got out of hand:


excerpt
According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.

Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

[fathertime]

Sounds like a losers speech to me; like so many other Politicians who give speeches.  We haven't had a President with backbone since Ike.  Here is what he did when the problem got out of hand:


excerpt
According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.

Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

Well let's here your winner's speech then!  How do we uproot 25 million people and families and what for?


Fathertime!   

[Turboguy]

My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low.  It is that our educational and social systems have failed us.  We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers. 


The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done.  If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire.  If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00.   Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.


The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more.  One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now.   Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents.   So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so.  We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire.  He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so. 


I am an employer with a small manufacturing business.  Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested.   However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.


Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business.  There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead.  Obama care was a real kick in the butt.   Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year.  If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages  ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).


When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure.  We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's.   We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work. 

[Muzh]

The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more.  One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now.   Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents.   So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so.  We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire.  He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so. 


I am an employer with a small manufacturing business.  Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested.   However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.

Let's see, $13 an hour is $520 a week, $27040 a year before taxes. Is this a living wage for a family of four where you live?

[jone]

My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low.  It is that our educational and social systems have failed us.  We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers. 


The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done.  If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire.  If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00.   Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.


The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more.  One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now.   Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents.   So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so.  We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire.  He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so. 


I am an employer with a small manufacturing business.  Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested.   However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.


Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business.  There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead.  Obama care was a real kick in the butt.   Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year.  If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages  ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).


When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure.  We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's.   We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work.

I didn't know that they had any small business or manufacturing north of Pittsburg.  I guess we learn something every day.

 

[fathertime]

A small increase in minimum wage, a closure of loopholes for high earners, a higher dollar amount of EIC (earned income credit), and cuts in the military.  With these 4 items we could keep our society from becoming too financially polarized and not create too much inflation....which I feel is fair and is what we should all want as we all benefit from this type of society!   


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Back on topic.  I found poster BillyB's arguments to be the best concerning problems with raising the minimum wage too high.  Why should anyone bust their hump and try to get ahead when they can coast?

Lol.

Billy supports a minimum wage.  I support its repeal.  Time to rollback socialism in this country.

[lordtiberius]

I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage.  These people are working!  The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do.  I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them.  If people doing these jobs don't have enough to live on, then bad things can happen.  If minimum wage is to remain low, then I'm glad there is a strong welfare system in place because too many people can fall through the crack, and that is not good for society as a whole.   This has nothing to do with socialism, which is a less-preferred system for me personally. I've read how well our society is doing as a whole, so kicking down to those that work hardest is a good thing! 


Fathertime!

Why not raise it to a billion dollars an hour?

[lordtiberius]

Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country.  That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers.  Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country.  It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico.  Stop the illegal amnesties, stop the vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.

Don't sell yourself short.  Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue.  And isn't he in the construction business.  His son is older than his wife too.  Curious.

[lordtiberius]

My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low.  It is that our educational and social systems have failed us.  We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers. 


The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done.  If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire.  If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00.   Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.


The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more.  One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now.   Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents.   So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so.  We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire.  He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so. 


I am an employer with a small manufacturing business.  Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested.   However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.


Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business.  There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead.  Obama care was a real kick in the butt.   Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year.  If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages  ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).


When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure.  We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's.   We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work.

Wisdom.

[lordtiberius]

A small increase in minimum wage, a closure of loopholes for high earners, a higher dollar amount of EIC (earned income credit), and cuts in the military.  With these 4 items we could keep our society from becoming too financially polarized and not create too much inflation....which I feel is fair and is what we should all want as we all benefit from this type of society!   


Fathertime!   

Fair like love is a changeling.

[Turboguy]

Let's see, $13 an hour is $520 a week, $27040 a year before taxes. Is this a living wage for a family of four where you live?

Where I live, Yes.  Of course it depends on how much of the budget goes for beer and weed.  Around here you can buy a livable house for $ 20,000.00 or so or a pretty nice house for $ 50-60,000.00.   Even if you rent, $ 400-500.00 will get a decent place.  Groceries at Aldis maybe $ 80-100 a week for a family of 4.  (The two of us eat for about $ 50.00  a week).  I could go further but yes, someone could live on that income.  Our cost of living is probably much less than that even though our income is a lot higher. 

Of course in our hypothetical case the wife could always get a job as well to add to the family income.

[Turboguy]

I didn't know that they had any small business or manufacturing north of Pittsburg.  I guess we learn something every day.

 

There isn't much any more.  About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down.  Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago.  Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled.  They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer. 

The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale. 

[fathertime]

Don't sell yourself short.  Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue.  And isn't he in the construction business.  His son is older than his wife too.  Curious.

In the context of discussing minimum wage, talking silliness about Billy's wife's age is just goofy...Don't ya think?


Fathertime!

[BillyB]

If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family.

I don't want my son making a wage he feels comfortable with at McDonalds. I want him to advance in life. It's good for him. It's good for the country.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/

Think a higher minimum wage is a job killer? Think again: The states that raised their minimum wages on January 1 have seen higher employment growth since then than the states that kept theirs at the same rate.
The minimum wage went up in 13 states — Arizona, Connecticut, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington — either thanks to automatic increases in line with inflation or new legislation, as Ben Wolcott reports in his analysis at the Center for Economic and Policy Research.  The average change in employment for those states over the first five months of the year as compared with the last five of 2013 is .99 percent, while the average for all remaining states is .68 percent. Digging deeper, all but one of those states are experiencing increases in employment, and nine of them have seen growth above the median rate.

Glyden, the argument minimum wage increases drive employment up is majorly flawed. The top 2 states in the chart didn't increase their minimum wages and seen the biggest employment increase. Also.... many of those new jobs were probably paying higher than minimum wage. Minimum wage had little to do with hiring new people. Our economy was going to rebound regardless who was president except it could've been better if someone else was elected.


If McDonalds start paying their employees $15 instead of the current minimum wage, they will start charging more for their food and in turn, they will have less customers. Who wants to pay premium for a simple burger? If they have less customers, they will have to trim down their work force which backs the argument jobs will be lost. McDonalds can't charge what better brand restaurants charge for food. They will be out of business. McDonalds is not and should not be the final destination of our youth looking to get into the job market. McDonalds should be a stepping stone for those to move onto bigger and better things. Yes, there will be many who struggle to getting to their final destination but hard work never killed anybody.

My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't.   The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard?   HARDLY!   He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course.  He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person.  This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money.  It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers.  He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!     


Fathertime!   

Your buddy may not work hard but maybe he has a good head on his shoulder and makes big decisions that are valuable to UPS? Maybe UPS feels he is worth what they're paying him? One good decision can make or save UPS a few thousand dollars. Those individuals who move heavy boxes can't earn the company that kind of money. It's possible you feel your buddy doesn't deserve that kind of money for the work he does but that decision goes to the person or company that pays him.

a closure of loopholes for high earners
   

It's easy to think those who earn big bucks are getting around the system with loopholes but I'm sure they're paying they're fair share what the law requires them to pay unless they are breaking the law. If you start up a business, your company may pay the government close to 40% in taxes and whatever you take out of your company as a paycheck, you will pay taxes on that too. In my opinion, those work hard to start a business are brave. They will pay much more in taxes compared to their employees. Most will go out of business and go into debt but for those that make it and create jobs, they deserve more.

[lordtiberius]

There isn't much any more.  About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down.  Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago.  Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled.  They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer. 

The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale.

How has the Obamacare mandate effected your business if any?

[lordtiberius]

In the context of discussing minimum wage, talking silliness about Billy's wife's age is just goofy...Don't ya think?


Fathertime!

I concede your authority on the subject matter.  Nonetheless it is a fact, is it not?

I wish you would respond to facts.  Are you capable of such novelties?

[lordtiberius]

Hey Billy, if you employ amnestied illegal immigrants, do you have to provide them health care?

[fathertime]

Your buddy may not work hard but maybe he has a good head on his shoulder and makes big decisions that are valuable to UPS? Maybe UPS feels he is worth what they're paying him? One good decision can make or save UPS a few thousand dollars. Those individuals who move heavy boxes can't earn the company that kind of money. It's possible you feel your buddy doesn't deserve that kind of money for the work he does but that decision goes to the person or company that pays him.



It's easy to think those who earn big bucks are getting around the system with loopholes but I'm sure they're paying they're fair share what the law requires them to pay unless they are breaking the law. If you start up a business, your company may pay the government close to 40% in taxes and whatever you take out of your company as a paycheck, you will pay taxes on that too. In my opinion, those work hard to start a business are brave. They will pay much more in taxes compared to their employees. Most will go out of business and go into debt but for those that make it and create jobs, they deserve more.

Hey Billy, I wanted to dispel the statement regarding that it is always hard workers are making the big bucks.  I see more loafing and goofing off among high earners, then I do with the lower level workers.  In my buddy's case, I say good for him that he has such flexibility.  I'd like to see the lower level workers cut a break without a commensurate rise in inflation. 


Now regarding very high earners paying a reasonable share of taxes.  I really question if that is accurate.  When seeing that Romney only paid 14% on 10's of millions, it really makes a person think which other multi-millionaires  are paying so little, or even less!  Somebody has to pay for all the nice things we have here, and those that have reaped the greatest rewards should be paying more than 14%!!  The infrastructure and people of the country need continued investment.   


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

I concede your authority on the subject matter.  Nonetheless it is a fact, is it not?

I wish you would respond to facts.  Are you capable of such novelties?

Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable. 


Fathertime!