The Politics of the Far Left and Far Right

[2tallbill]

IF, I'm a 'leftie' - you must be right of Attilla the Hun ..  Plenty of right of centre folks abhore [ spelling error corrected ]  'Brexit' and held no fear over migrants coming from the EU - given it had a postitive effect on our economy, overall ..

Attilla the Hun was a lefty, all dictators are. Control by the State and power of
the State is a Lefty ideal. Liberty, freedom and protection FROM the State is a
Righty ideal.

You obviously don't know what characterizes lefties and righties. 

Good lord, only you can bring up Brexit when discussing imaginary plots between
the USA, Japan and Iran, neither being a party to your beloved Brexit.

[2tallbill]

'Free Speech' - YES  ..promoting polarisation, NO

Yes, definitely a Lefty. Using words like polarization as an excuse to shut
down free speech.

The very definition of free speech is to be able to speak freely about stuff
and not only stuff that lefties agree with. Lefty Dogma only works in a
vacuum where alternative thoughts and ideas aren't allowed. That's
why lefties nearly always lose debates. Their ideas suck.

[2tallbill]

It used to be liberals said, (and some still do) "I don't agree with what you say but I defend your right to say it."

That's because commies were banned during the cold war. After the cold
war they became allowed again so the lefties want to ban conservative
speech. ESPECIALLY if they are effective speakers

[2tallbill]

Really, who WAS your teacher of history,  Beel ?  They must join your Mathematics teacher in shame..

I had several history teachers. Which teacher are you going to blame for your
inability to understand what exponential growth means?

Hilter was a 'leftie' because he was a 'National Socialist ' ?    What about
Mussolini, Franco et al ...  ?

Yes, Hitler was a lefty only slightly to the right of communism, as were Mussolini
and Franco. They are all to the left of Liberals. They ALL took over various industries
but they allowed some private business and companies to continue doing business
as long as they saluted properly and sufficiently.

Why were socialists fighting them ?

Why do Muslims fight each other? Why do the Democrats have fights among
themselves? All dictators want to be at the top of the heap. There is little
difference between them. Mao, Stalin and Hitler are nearly identical. 

'Imaginary plots ?' Do tell us who is 'imaginating' what ?

Did you read the topic of this thread?
"USA blows up 2 tankers and blames Iran"

That's what the discussion was about when you managed to bring up Brexit.

[SANDRO43]

Yes, Hitler was a lefty only slightly to the right of communism, as were Mussolini and Franco. They are all to the left of Liberals.

Oh well .

They ALL took over various industries but they allowed some private business and companies to continue doing business as long as they saluted properly and sufficiently.

Although Mussolini was the managing editor of the Socialist daily L'Avanti (Forward!) since 1912, in 1913 he was expelled from the party for his interventionist ideas.

In early 1914 he founded his newspaper Il Popolo d'Italia, with financial support from a number of industrialists - who probably saw WWI, which we joined in 1915, as a promising business opportunity.

No Italian industry was taken over during Fascism, and most industrialists approved of Mussolini's laws because they stifled any labour disputes.

Bill, please do not post nonsense about European history, you show you know VERY little about it .

[2tallbill]

- but I support entrepreneurship- that's hardly 'leftie' 

So on that subject you are to the right of commies. Almost everybody is to the
right of commies. Hitler was to the right of commies but to the left of you.

'Ri-ight'... So, do tell us why wackos like Alex Jones are having their ability post post lies removed ?  Really - bearing in mind your point ?

I didn't bring up Alex Jones, Maxx did.

Wow, there was me thinking that they were trusted to govern more by the electorate - hence winning

Goalpost moved, Moby swerve. You talked about winning debates causing lefties
to win elections, now you are talking about trustworthiness winning elections.
Lefties rarely win debates.

So do tell how Tony Blair's new Labour actually came to power ?

I would have to think hard about something that I care less about.

Hmmmmm.................

I care less about whether the Pope wears boxers or briefs, but I don't
care about either enough to debate with you about them.

[2tallbill]

Oh well .Although Mussolini was the managing editor of the Socialist daily L'Avanti (Forward!) since 1912, in 1913 he was expelled from the party for his interventionist ideas.

In early 1914 he founded his newspaper Il Popolo d'Italia, with financial support from a number of industrialists - who probably saw WWI, which we joined in 1915, as a promising business opportunity.

No Italian industry was taken over during Fascism, and most industrialists approved of Mussolini's laws because they stifled any labour disputes.

Bill, please do not post nonsense about European history, you show you know VERY little about it .

Italian farms weren't taken over? That's not an industry? They weren't told what
to grow?

Mussolini was kicked out of the socialists because he wasn't socialist enough, but
he was far to the left of the UK or regular USA democrats.

Mussolini, believed in the power of the State and not to the people. That's a lefty
governing principle.

If you want to revoke my Membership to this forum then go ahead, but as long
as my membership hasn't been revoked I will post on any subject that I care to
post about.

From Wikipedia:
The agricultural policy of Fascism

A fundamental principle of the Fascist agrarian policy was to apply the principles of partnership, encouraging the different social classes to work together, as opposed to the system of continuous confrontation inherent in the visions of Marxism and Capitalism.

In addition to his ideological leadership, Mussolini pursued a dictatorship of the proletariat, but favouring the peasants. The Duce aimed to create a new social class in Italy by the expropriation of large estates and the transformation of tenants into landowners and settlers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_Fascism_(Italy)

[2tallbill]

The Economic Leadership Secrets of Benito Mussolini
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2012/02/22/the-economic-leadership-secrets-of-benito-mussolini/#3dd7340d68e6

[SANDRO43]

If you want to revoke my Membership to this forum then go ahead, but as long as my membership hasn't been revoked I will post on any subject that I care to post about.

I modified your post because the linked text did not show.

If you want to revoke my Membership to this forum then go ahead, but as long
as my membership hasn't been revoked I will post on any subject that I care to
post about.

Did I threaten that ? Why should I do such Commie thing ?

[2tallbill]

Fascism
By Sheldon Richman

As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives
from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a
protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.

read all about it here
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

[2tallbill]

I modified your post because the linked text did not show.
Did I threaten that ? Why should I do such Commie thing ?

I am glad you didn't 

[SANDRO43]

Hard to decide where to start refuting some simplistic clichés .

Italian farms weren't taken over?

Not that I know of.

That's not an industry?

It was not in Italy, then. Most farms were owned by absentee landlords and worked by mezzadri (peasants tilling the landlord's fields and owing half of their private produce), with overseers watching over them - which is considered a reason for the rise of Mafia in Sicily since they were the only local interlocutors.

They weren't told what to grow?

After the 1935 sanctions for our invasion of Ethiopia, they were encouraged to grow staples that could no longer be imported.

Mussolini was kicked out of the socialists because he wasn't socialist enough...Mussolini, believed in the power of the State and not to the people. That's a lefty governing principle.

Bit of a contradiction there.

Mussolini pursued a dictatorship of the proletariat, but favouring the peasants.

Never heard of that .

[mhr7]

Yes, Hitler was a lefty only slightly to the right of communism, as were Mussolini
and Franco. They are all to the left of Liberals. They ALL took over various industries
but they allowed some private business and companies to continue doing business
as long as they saluted properly and sufficiently.

The Nazis were a fascist, right wing, ultranationalist party. Not left wing at all. They had a strong dislike of liberal democracy.

From the Oxford dictionary -

fascism -

An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

http://www.lexico.com/en/definition/fascism

[Boethius]

Attilla the Hun was a lefty, all dictators are. Control by the State and power of
the State is a Lefty ideal. Liberty, freedom and protection FROM the State is a
Righty ideal.

LOL.  Right.  The definition of the "1%", his kingdom was just that - a hereditary kingdom, in which the populace was expected to proclaim undying fealty to him or the son who succeeded him (his sons fought for power after Attilla's death).

According to historian Adrian Goldsworth, Attilla's main aim was "to profit from plunder during warfare and extortion during peacetime."  That doesn't sound too "lefty" to me.

Yet, 100% of men who like underaged boys are homosexuals. Jeffrey Epstein

You found ONE right wing pedo what has that got to do with his question?

The point was never about pedophiles, and I didn't "find" Hastert's name.  I knew who he was. 

I could list dozens of right wing pedophiles, and I would hazard a guess you could find the same number of left wing pedophiles.  The point was that one cannot characterize NAMBLA supporters as "left wing".  They come from all social classes and political persuasions.

Mussolini pursued a dictatorship of the proletariat, but favouring the peasants.

Peasants aren't part of the proletariat. 

Furthermore, to be part of the "proletariat", the state must own the means of production, i.e., "exploitation" of workers by the the owners of the means of production cannot exist.  Marxism 101.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[2tallbill]

The Nazis were a fascist, right wing, ultranationalist party. Not left wing at all. They had a strong dislike of liberal democracy.

From the Oxford dictionary -

fascism

An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

http://www.lexico.com/en/definition/fascism

I realize that you want it to be right wing but it's far left of everything EXCEPT
Socialism and Communism. So it's right wing compared to Communism, but
not compared to our American market economy and Constitutional Republican
form of government. Compared to what we have in the USA Fascism is left wing.
It almost exactly mirrors what they have in Modern China. Tell me how Modern
China is right wing.

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer.

"Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes
through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that
control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where
socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring
owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic
authority conceived it.

(Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism
abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market
relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished
money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices
and wages politically. "


Follow my source by clicking here

[2tallbill]

Hard to decide where to start refuting some simplistic clichés .

Why don't I give you some links to Articles that explain how fascism is
far left of capitalism that we have in the USA.

History of Left-wing Fascism
http://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/history-of-left-wing-fascism


Statism: Whether Fascist or Communist, It's The Deadly Opposite of Capitalism
http://www.forbes.com/sites/harrybinswanger/2013/11/13/statism/#2e010f1a5f5c



From the New York Times
Can China be labeled as Fascist?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/asia/01iht-letter01.html


FASCISM IN CHINA  TODAY
ANCIENT ROOTS AND MODERN REALITIES
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/Reports/China/chinafacism.html


I've posted this twice already but nobody debating me has read it.
Fascism
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

[msmob]

'Beel'

You are in the realms of wacko-land territory - trying to tell us that Fascism is far to the left of US capitalism - with dubious 'opinions'

[2tallbill]

The Nazis were a fascist, right wing, ultranationalist party. Not left wing at all. They had a strong dislike of liberal democracy.

From the Oxford dictionary -

fascism -

An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

http://www.lexico.com/en/definition/fascism

Lefties believe in the State taking care of more things, righties believe in the
State taking car of less things.

More Authoritarian = Left
Less  Authoritarian = Right

Fascism is more authoritarian

Any group can be patriotic, that's not a political feature but often it is incorrectly
described as such. The Soviet Commies were very patriotic, they had the great
patriotic war with the Germans. They had patriotic songs, they march with their
military weapons in big patriotic parades. The Soviet Commies weren't right
wing.

[2tallbill]

'Beel'

You are in the realms of wacko-land territory - trying to tell us that Fascism is far to the left of US capitalism - with dubious 'opinions'

I've posted links with the NY Times, Forbes and others, which of the links do
you think are dubious? I quoted liberally from them. 

[2tallbill]

According to historian Adrian Goldsworth, Attilla's main aim was "to profit from plunder during warfare and extortion during peacetime."  That doesn't sound too "lefty" to me.

If you change the words plunder and extortion with the word Taxes
then it sound pretty lefty to me.

Furthermore, to be part of the "proletariat", the state must own the means
of production, i.e., "exploitation" of workers by the the owners of the means
of production cannot exist.  Marxism 101.[/font][/size]

Yet the Chinese have done EXACTLY that, 

They have converted from communism/socialism one step to
the right to fascism. Deng Xiaoping 101

[SANDRO43]

I've posted this twice already but nobody debating me has read it. Fascismhttp://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

Because it's a waste of time, considering its author. It's full of ridiculous statements like...

Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

As if consumers counted at all in the 1920s-1930s, in Italy and elsewhere .

That article is a long sequel of half-baked opinions, rather than historical facts.

Bill, I could dig up most of Mussolini's laws from our national archives (facts) and post them, but I do not feel so inclined because I would also have to translate them into English .

When I was in my early 20s, I had the fortune to attend a series of some 10 evening lectures called Storia del Fascismo, given in a packed concert hall at Milan's Conservatory of Music. Each lecture of about 2 hours featured reputed historians and major political figures who lived during Fascism and could tell the tale as direct witnesses.

The picture they painted differed in several important aspects from yours and what is in your links.

[2tallbill]

Because it's a waste of time, considering its author. It's full of ridiculous statements like...As if consumers counted at all in the 1920s-1930s, in Italy and elsewhere .

Bill, I could dig up most of Mussolini's laws from our national archives (facts) and post them, but I do not feel so inclined because I would also have to translate them into English .

When I was in my early 20s, I had the fortune to attend a series of some 10 evening lectures called Storia del Fascismo, given in a packed concert hall at Milan's Conservatory of Music. Each lecture of about 2 hours featured reputed historians and major political figures who lived during Fascism and could tell the tale as direct witnesses.

The picture they painted differed in several important aspects from yours and what is in your links.

Sandro,

The last thing I would do is to ask you to do a lot of needless work
just for the sake of arguing a point with me. You might have a point
that Italy wasn't AS fascist as say Germany was under Hitler or China
is becoming today.

Everything Germany ever did under Hitler is readily available in English
and he did EVERYTHING to take his country one step to the right of
Socialism. He did take over industries and he did tell others what to
build and dictated most everything.

Fascism is to the right of Socialism and communism but not that much.

[mhr7]

Fascism is to the right of Socialism and communism but not that much.

Yeah, only a few hundred miles or so.

German historian and National Socialism expert Joachim Fest characterizes the repurposing of socialist rhetoric as an act of “prestidigitation”:

This ideology took a leftist label chiefly for tactical reasons. It demanded, within the party and within the state, a powerful system of rule that would exercise unchallenged leadership over the “great mass of the anonymous.” And whatever premises the party may have started with, by 1930 Hitler’s party was “socialist” only to take advantage of the emotional value of the word, and a “workers’ party” in order to lure the most energetic social force. As with Hitler’s protestations of belief in tradition, in conservative values, or in Christianity, the socialist slogans were merely movable ideological props to serve as camouflage and confuse the enemy.

[2tallbill]

Yeah, only a few hundred miles or so.

Explain how China was able to switch from Communism to fascism
in so little time without a massive change in government.

[mhr7]

Explain how China was able to switch from Communism to fascism
in so little time without a massive change in government.

I don't think China is Fascist and Nazi's were the group I commented on. Are you trying to say that modern China and Nazi Germany are similar somehow?