Planning a first visit

[danieln_2000]

I am a beginner, which will probably  become obvious. I will be able to visit either Kiev or Moscow in the near future. I’m not sure for how long, perhaps 3-7 days. There are several women whom I have been talking to in both cities. And, I was curious if there were any suggestions as how to plan a visit. I was curious to try and learn from those who have gone before me. Also realizing there are many ways to do this. I have heard the possibility of using a service like Kiev Connections, and meeting several women sequentially. I have also heard meeting one woman, seeing if there was chemistry, and if there wasn’t, graciously allow her to go, then call up the next woman. Ultimately, the plan would be to plan a return visit in a couple of months if I found someone where I felt there was mutual chemistry and potential.

As I get ready to post this, I notice the sticky note that suggests schedule women into time slots and meet them. If you have done either of these methods, I am curious if you could share a little of your experience, or guidance.

[HoundDaddyLee]

Welcome to the board Daniel...


3 days is much too short of a visit. My visits have been 8 - 10 days. I see you are in the US, so you will lose two days traveling each way. So keep the travel time in mind. I have never been to Moscow, so I will let others comment on visiting there.


I have been to Kyiv and other cities in Ukraine. I have never used a service to set up my dates or introductions while in country. Don't know anything about Kiev Connections, but many of these services tend to be rip offs. TooTallBill has a couple of postings here with beginner information. I will list the items that have worked for me:

• Get an apartment and not use a hotel. Many women will not visit you in a hotel as they could be seen as being prostitutes. Plus you will have a kitchen, washing machine, etc. I find it to be much more comfortable. Also book your own apartment. I know the name of a great booking agent based in Odessa and she has helped me in other cities as well.
• Get your interpreter. The agencies use interpreter and rental services as revenue streams. If a girl offers her "friend" as an interpreter for pay, they usually end up splitting the fee.

Again these are my views based on Ukraine. Someone else will chime in on Moscow experiences.


Hope this helps and I hope you enjoy the forum.


HDL

[Trenchcoat]

3 days, lol. Daniel no sooner would you have got off the plane than you would be getting back on it, you would have to meet the women in the airport lounge

No seriously, 7 days is really the absolute minimum, even from the UK. Even if you are talking 3 clear days with travel time either side it is still too short and from the US not cost or time effective. Some UK guys will brag about being able to do a long weekend and it still only cost them a few hundred pounds but in my opinion form the two week long trips I have done in the Ukraine, the longer you can be out there the better.

Experience can be learned here to a point but some experience I think can only be earned by going out there and making mistakes (hopefully not too bad a mistake, that is where the forum comes in to help you out).

From my experience in Kiev I would say:

1). Go straight to the official taxi rank as you exit from the arrivals lounge, do not let yourself be accosted by any unofficial taxi drivers once you step into the arrivals lounge and outside it, just ignore them. The taxi rank is straight in front out the arrivals exit across the paved area. It will save you money by getting the official metered price rather than the unofficial inflated tourist price. I managed to make my way to the official taxi rank but all the unofficial taxi touts don't make it easy, it can be confusing to a new comer. That and I think since my trip last March, Uber has started operating in Kiev so might be worth a look up.

2). On the lady front Kiev I don't think is very hang out sort of city. I went to the centre of the city centre which is an interesting visit but there are not many 'hang out bars' in fact not many bars at all, most are restaurants catering to sit down family or group & couple dining. So, its probably best to make sure your sorted with how you are going to supply yourself with women Going to the Orchestra single is probably ok, theatre & opera maybe less so but you might meet women there but that would be chancing it. Agencies that are pay monthly or free may be ok. Kiev connections I've heard various, some say its ok, others its a scam, personally I wouldn't trust it. Any agency that puts its control of the women over your needs is generally one to stay clear off.

3). There is a McDonalds along the main high street from Maidan Square and I think they have the computer terminals in there to pre order food. The one opposite from Maidan square doesn't as it is smaller. Many Ukrainians speak English, particularly younger ones, but it can be daunting all the same when all you hear around you is Russian at first.

Generally though, I would say take your time, read the forum posts to learn. Worst thing you can do I think is to rush it and make mistakes that make your trip a waste of time & money. Kiev is good if you have company like I did but I think a lonely place if you're on your own and having trouble lining up girls with Introduction agencies just viewing you as naive bait for a quick feed of your cash. Kiev has stuff to do (mostly the arts type of stuff - I'm not a real big theatre goer but don't mind it here & there) but its not really a touristy city as we are used to in the west. I don't think it has a fully laid out tourist industry as we're used to.

From reading your post I would say try and get to know a girl online first (skype with her for sure) & have a back up plan if she doesn't show. Remember though that there is no guarantee of chemistry when you meet her even if you get on real well online. I don't get the impression from reading your post that you are ready to go there yet and if you did you could likely end up out on a limb not knowing what to do, so I would say spend time preparing well.

p.s remember also you need a visa for Russia but not the Ukraine, that said the Ukraine is in a precarious state of semi conflict with Russia on its eastern border & near the Crimea which could go live any time!

[jone]

3 days, lol. Daniel no sooner would you have got off the plane than you would be getting back on it, you would have to meet the women in the airport lounge

No seriously, 7 days is really the absolute minimum, even from the UK. Even if you are talking 3 clear days with travel time either side it is still too short and from the US not cost or time effective. Some UK guys will brag about being able to do a long weekend and it still only cost them a few hundred pounds but in my opinion form the two week long trips I have done in the Ukraine, the longer you can be out there the better.

Experience can be learned here to a point but some experience I think can only be earned by going out there and making mistakes (hopefully not too bad a mistake, that is where the forum comes in to help you out).

From my experience in Kiev I would say:

1). Go straight to the official taxi rank as you exit from the arrivals lounge, do not let yourself be accosted by any unofficial taxi drivers once you step into the arrivals lounge and outside it, just ignore them. The taxi rank is straight in front out the arrivals exit across the paved area. It will save you money by getting the official metered price rather than the unofficial inflated tourist price. I managed to make my way to the official taxi rank but all the unofficial taxi touts don't make it easy, it can be confusing to a new comer. That and I think since my trip last March, Uber has started operating in Kiev so might be worth a look up.

2). On the lady front Kiev I don't think is very hang out sort of city. I went to the centre of the city centre which is an interesting visit but there are not many 'hang out bars' in fact not many bars at all, most are restaurants catering to sit down family or group & couple dining. So, its probably best to make sure your sorted with how you are going to supply yourself with women Going to the Orchestra single is probably ok, theatre & opera maybe less so but you might meet women there but that would be chancing it. Agencies that are pay monthly or free may be ok. Kiev connections I've heard various, some say its ok, others its a scam, personally I wouldn't trust it. Any agency that puts its control of the women over your needs is generally one to stay clear off.

3). There is a McDonalds along the main high street from Maidan Square and I think they have the computer terminals in there to pre order food. The one opposite from Maidan square doesn't as it is smaller. Many Ukrainians speak English, particularly younger ones, but it can be daunting all the same when all you hear around you is Russian at first.

Generally though, I would say take your time, read the forum posts to learn. Worst thing you can do I think is to rush it and make mistakes that make your trip a waste of time & money. Kiev is good if you have company like I did but I think a lonely place if you're on your own and having trouble lining up girls with Introduction agencies just viewing you as naive bait for a quick feed of your cash. Kiev has stuff to do (mostly the arts type of stuff - I'm not a real big theatre goer but don't mind it here & there) but its not really a touristy city as we are used to in the west. I don't think it has a fully laid out tourist industry as we're used to.

From reading your post I would say try and get to know a girl online first (skype with her for sure) & have a back up plan if she doesn't show. Remember though that there is no guarantee of chemistry when you meet her even if you get on real well online. I don't get the impression from reading your post that you are ready to go there yet and if you did you could likely end up out on a limb not knowing what to do, so I would say spend time preparing well.

p.s remember also you need a visa for Russia but not the Ukraine, that said the Ukraine is in a precarious state of semi conflict with Russia on its eastern border & near the Crimea which could go live any time!

I am a strong supporter of going for a longe weekend on a WOVO trip.  I also believe on such first trips it is easier to stay in a hotel, not an apartment.  While others may look for a plan B, C, D and E for a first trip, I think getting your feet on the ground, meeting a woman for the first time and then flying back is not the worst thing in the world.  I have done it twice and it has worked out both times.  If these are your plans, don't let others scare you off.  Particularly if you can get a long weekend off but do not have such luxury to afford 8 days as my good friend Mr. Hound Daddy says.

[Trenchcoat]

It may be situation dependant, i.e if your rich but short on time to take a long weekend from the US. For most though - judging on the income dispersal poll someone did a while back on here many are in need of saving the pennies so a long weekend trip doesn't make sense.

Even as an exploratory trip, a long weekend is not going to give you much time to explore. I find it takes me at least a day or two before I start getting acclimatised & comfortable with the environment, thought this may lessen the more I get used to the culture.

For sure, OP may not wish to go out there for much more than 7 days at first to test the water or he may feel out on a limb, but over the long term unless he is rich he will need to safeguard his finances a little and plan how to most effectively use his money - a few expensive short trips leading to nothing fruitful & money running out could abruptly end his search.

On the plus side though Jone with a long weekend as you mention the girl will have limited time to use OP for entertainment expenses, but of course FSU money is cheap these days anyway, so not a great cost there. 

[Larry1]

Daniel, welcome to the forum. It's refreshing to see posts on pursuing fsuw rather than the usual fare of increasingly vicious argument about presidential politics.

As you have been reading the sticky threads you probably already know that one of the major issues in this search is to decide whether to visit one or visit many (WOVO v. WMVM). I'm a visit one guy but I wouldn't dream of trying to talk you out of the WMVM approach.  I believe ML has written about the logistics of that approach. I think you will find his post in the sticky threads.

I agree with Lee that a 3 day trip is far too short, especially considering the time needed to fly from the united states.

I can't advise you on agencies bc I've never used one. I used the pay-by-the-month services such as LuckyLovers and Elena's Models.  In the one visit one trip I had that blew up I wrote to a lot of Kiev girls and met several for dates. Doing this was a time-consuming process. I would write to one and she might write me back in a day or two, then we might set up a meeting on the next day, or her schedule might delay our meeting. The one keeper I met on that trip I didn't meet until the night before I had to fly black. If you do this you will probably need something like 7 days (if not more).

[alex330]

I would fly out for about 5 days at a time due to work limitations. Basically take an extra day off on a long holiday weekend. That gave me 3 solid days over there. A bit short but it was what I had to work with. 

[LAman]

3 days is much too short of a visit. My visits have been 8 - 10 days. I see you are in the US, so you will lose two days traveling each way. So keep the travel time in mind. I have never been to Moscow, so I will let others comment on visiting there.

 

Where exactly do you come from taking 2 days EACH way for a trip????
Every trip I have been on was one day after going and same day coming back. In fact, when coming back, I usually get half day in at work on same day I leave FSU!!!! And I am on west coast.

I do agree that 3 days in too little. It takes me 3 days to adjust to time change and get a good nights sleep. OP did mention 3-7 days. I would never go for less than 11 days. I usually spend close to a month now.

[danieln_2000]

I want to say thank you for all of the comments and suggestions. I will definitely heed the advice of the more days, the better.

[BillyB]

There are several women whom I have been talking to in both cities. And, I was curious if there were any suggestions as how to plan a visit.

Welcome to the forum Daniel. I usually go for 10+ days at a time. Use phone and Skype to get to know the women well before visiting. Choose the city/country where the most potential lies. You may hit it off with a woman before you visit so well, you'll want to only visit her but be prepared to have a backup plan just in case things go sour on the first date. If you choose to visit multiple women, they will ask you questions why you're not spending all your time with them. They aren't stupid. If you don't know how to talk and get nervous, they'll assume you're lying and/or a sex tourist. If you visit many women, you should remind them before you visit that you're visiting as a friend. When they ask you questions if you're seeing other girls, you remind them you're visiting everybody as a friend and if you find one where the chemistry is good for both of you, you will commit to only one girl. Some women may take on an attitude but encourage them to give it a chance between you two and go on more dates.

Do lots of reading here. Lots of men think with the little head and get ran over by pro daters and green card girls. Ask questions if you can't find your answers. Lots of good info is getting drowned out by the political discussions that will last another month or so.

[CaptB]

Welcome Danieln-2000,


Another thing to consider is what type of city do "you" live in. Tiny, small, medium, large, very large (like NY, LA, Chicago etc.). Although there are exceptions.....most from a large city would probably prefer.....a large city. Moscow is attractive to visit because it doesn't require any more travel within Russia. I am a firm believer of meeting FSU/W in their "own" home town.....and not bringing them to you......in Moscow. Just something to think about.


Capt B

[Trenchcoat]

As you have been reading the sticky threads you probably already know that one of the major issues in this search is to decide whether to visit one or visit many (WOVO v. WMVM). I'm a visit one guy but I wouldn't dream of trying to talk you out of the WMVM approach.  I believe ML has written about the logistics of that approach. I think you will find his post in the sticky threads.

I agree with Lee that a 3 day trip is far too short, especially considering the time needed to fly from the united states.

I can't advise you on agencies bc I've never used one. I used the pay-by-the-month services such as LuckyLovers and Elena's Models.  In the one visit one trip I had that blew up I wrote to a lot of Kiev girls and met several for dates. Doing this was a time-consuming process. I would write to one and she might write me back in a day or two, then we might set up a meeting on the next day, or her schedule might delay our meeting. The one keeper I met on that trip I didn't meet until the night before I had to fly black. If you do this you will probably need something like 7 days (if not more).

WOVO v. WMVM? I think both can be equally as flawed OP, as neither will tell you if there is any chemistry until you are there. It can be difficult reading chemistry of skype, particularly when faced with a very attractive FSU girl you get on real well with but on meeting can often show little to no real chemistry. To my mind visit many probably works better for a much longer trip than 7 days as you need time to actually meet the many girls and in 7 days that time is too short, some might have managed it by luck or tight planning but as Larry rightly states by the time you correspond with a girl and write a letter back & forth & arrange a time its likely 3 days have passed, sometimes shorter sometimes longer. The girl won't be sat at home waiting for emails to come in all day and if she is then it may be cause for worry or you might just get lucky on timing.

Some aren't bothered about that on a first trip they just want to meet a girl and enjoy the city and get to know the culture, nothing wrong with that, but if your serious about getting right in there you need more time is what I have learned. Trying to round up a load of girls before you visit is a tough task, finding just one before you visit is not necessarily that easy, you want her to be asking you to come and thrilled at the prospect - even than as I found there might not be the required chemistry/affection forthcoming to show this.

A hotel is good for a first visit, if the girl you are visiting are queasy about it then consider shifting to a pre-booked apartment after arrival. Hotels with an English name are good as if you get lost or need to explain to a taxi driver, it will be easier to pronounce than some Russian name. Also, with an English named hotel the hotel can likely expect English speaking guest to stay. Go for a nice hotel though, four star hotel come cheap to us in the Ukraine because of currency conversions and go for the city centre, the shopping district is usually best as they have all the restaurants & facilities you'll need and be more used to foreigners. Russian/Ukrainian cities tend to be vast, they distance between and within cities & towns too, so make sure your in the centre of the centre if you know what I mean as somewhere near the centre can actually be a long way out.

[HoundDaddyLee]

Where exactly do you come from taking 2 days EACH way for a trip????
Every trip I have been on was one day after going and same day coming back. In fact, when coming back, I usually get half day in at work on same day I leave FSU!!!! And I am on west coast.

I do agree that 3 days in too little. It takes me 3 days to adjust to time change and get a good nights sleep. OP did mention 3-7 days. I would never go for less than 11 days. I usually spend close to a month now.

You misinterpreted what I wrote LAMan. It takes a day each way (so you lose two days to travel)

[Anotherkiwi]

You misinterpreted what I wrote LAMan. It takes a day each way (so you lose two days to travel)

Whereas, if you're in New Zealand, it DOES take two days each way because you can't fly non-stop.    Transfer in Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong or Seoul, and away you go again.  However, the flight times are such that there always seems to be a long break between them, so you need to find a hotel or go sightseeing.

[Trenchcoat]

Definitely do a lot more days Daniel. I even wondering if you have been abroad much at all. You might very well have to give two days travel each way even though theoretically it takes one. Why, because when you arrive you will likely be knackered, added to that travel to & from airports, arrival & departure time at airports & hence the hotels and preparing for that. So on your 3 day even allowing for a day journey either side you may be lucky to get one clear day. Enough time to look around wonder where the hell you are and come back dazed. Women will also be peeved if you mess up the time when meeting them because you are fast out asleep in your hotel room. If you want give yourself time to enjoy it at all, from the US in particular I would say about 7 days is the minimum but even this will go quickly so perhaps at least 10 days or more. Accommodation can be found cheap in the FSU, its not like in US, UK or most of EU. So its the flight cost that tends to cost the most whether form the US or UK, particularly from the US, hence it pays to stay longer. I think many American guys I have heard of tend to go more for the 2 week, 14 day mark to make it the slightest bit worthwhile, but depends how comfortable you are in a country you've never visited before I guess.

[danieln_2000]

CaptB, I find your advice to meeting them in their “own” home town to be very good. As, I look back at a relationship that did not work right here in the US, it is because we became exclusive prior to me seeing how she interacted in her own environment. You also have wise words on the type of city she lives and where I live. I am starting to add that discussion in, so I can start learning where she lives, and where she might want to live.

Trenchcoat, you totally crack me up with “Women will also be peeved if you mess up the time when meeting them because you are fast out asleep in your hotel room.” Point taken, that’s not a way to make a good first impression!

I am thinking that I’ll be purchasing my tickets this week, keep talking to women and see what happens. (Along with more planning and reading posts on this website.)

[LAman]

I am thinking that I’ll be purchasing my tickets this week, keep talking to women and see what happens. (Along with more planning and reading posts on this website.)

So, which city did you decide to buy tickets for?

BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about missing a first meeting. Most times the girl meets you at airport or sometime that same day. If it is a next day, a lunch or afternoon meeting is best. I have NEVER missed a meeting( especially travel related), yet if going from one meeting to another it can be tricky!!

[Trenchcoat]

Well Daniel try not to put the cart before the horse because of enthusiasm and book up before you have a real sound idea of where you need to go, i.e who you are seeing where. The first trip doesn't have to be a heavy search for a girl, it can merely be exploratory of the FSU dating scene, culture, and sight seeing, so long as you've got time & money in the future to make more trips, which if you do find someone odds on you will have to do anyway. Make sure its not a wasted trip though even if exploratory, from the US the time & money input tends to be greater and you don't want to be moping around a hotel/apartment miserable or lonely as you've got no action forthcoming. That means having at least one decent woman that is committed to seeing you or several where the likelihood is that there will, also an idea of any sights you might like to see with her or by yourself in the down time.

The other thought that crops up and comes to mind is that while meeting a girl in her home (home city) is great its not always that easy. If its an airport city like, St. Petersburg, Moscow, Kiev or Odessa then its pretty straightforward. Worst case scenario is that she lives way out in the suburbs and hence a long journey by most convenient method, usually taxi unless with her to navigate on public transport. If she lives in a city not supplied by an airport then the journey will eat up your time and to a lesser extent your money. You may get there and they may be no chemistry in which case you have made an arduous time consuming journey by bus and wasted a lot of time you could be spending seeing several women. If you want to get out and see Russia/Ukraine that's fine but be warned it can get a bit remote away from the big cities - English Language speaking goes down the more further away from airport cities & tourist locations. So, don't expect to get what you want by speaking English, few if any will understand you, you'll need at least a good few Russian words & phrases (perhaps carry a phrasebook also as a last resort) and not all of this will be understood. Don't rely on mobile phone interpretation/phrasebook as if battery goes flat it will be useless (remember appropriate two pin charger also).

I guess what I am saying is make sure you don't get out of your depth as booking it up at home is a whole different kettle of fish to being out there on the ground. I've managed ok as I've travelled a little previously/experience & preparedness, its not a big deal but you need to be prepared or you could end up having an unpleasant time and no one wants that. In general though its fun if you take it easy.

My own idea in about 3-4 months time is to go out there for a month now that I've got a couple of trips under my belt. Any girls though I will get travelling to me, I don't mind paying for their train ticket or whatever as I can do this online and it costs me little because of the good currency conversion. I want to know first & foremost if there is chemistry there, never mind how she acts at home in the first instance. I'm not going to waste time chasing after girls all over the FSU, even a month would not be long enough for that. The way I figure it is if I'm willing to make the plane journey and the time and cost associated with that then the least the girl can do is travel part way to meet me if I'm prepared to foot the cost of it. I've found putting it like that to a girl usually brings her around as she sees that its only reasonable. That way I can stay central and maximise the efficiency of the dating operation

[danieln_2000]

I’ve never been to Europe. And, it’s been a while since I’ve travelled internationally. In a bit over a month, I will be going to Europe for other reasons, I was thinking of adding in a trip to the FSU. It so happens, that Moscow appears to be easy to get to. Depending on which flight I book, I might transit through Moscow anyways. So, just recently I was thinking of extending the stay in Moscow while I’m en-route elsewhere. I also realized, that I could actually stay in Moscow both coming and going from LAX. Two of the girls that I’ve been talking to more are in or near Moscow. And, two others are some distance away. I figure that because I have an opportunity to make this trip cheaper (as I will be in Europe anyways), that I should go for it. If I can meet an incredible woman along the way that will be great. And, if not, I would like to have fun learning about another culture and country. I will say the obvious.Logistically, this is a lot more complicated than dating someone at home.

[Mila]

Ukraine is much better, believe me. First, you don't need visa, second, Ukraine is more European and open country and the most important is Ukrainian women are better looking and much better wives. I think it is also easy to get to Ukraine! So, please, think about that. Good luck!

[Yes]

^ Really? And what do you base these statements on?

A visa is easy to get, and you can get long term visas as well. I have been to Ukraine many times and find the women no prettier, not morally better (actually I think they are worse morally), and to be honest, a little crazier (not in a good way) than RW.

I could say more bad things about Ukraine and Ukrainians than Russia(ns) from my experiences, starting with the economy.
 
Sorry, but I don't believe or agree with any of what you have said.

[Faux Pas]

^ Really? And what do you base these statements on?

A visa is easy to get, and you can get long term visas as well. I have been to Ukraine many times and find the women no prettier, not morally better (actually I think they are worse morally), and to be honest, a little crazier (not in a good way) than RW.

I could say more bad things about Ukraine and Ukrainians than Russia(ns) from my experiences, starting with the economy.
 
Sorry, but I don't believe or agree with any of what you have said.

So what is your point? Americans can go to Ukraine visa free. That is another $300 expense depending on what it takes to obtain it.

I'd love to agree with you on the other but then that would make us both wrong.

The rest is all subjective and Mila believes what she believes. You believe what you believe. I know many Russian and Ukrainian women and could not call either as a group prettier or morally superior and I am married to a RW.

Why the attempt at a flame?

[Mila]

Honestly, what I've mentioned before is my clients' statement and I agree with them 100%.  Everybody has own opinion and it is normal, no sense to argue about that.

[Trenchcoat]

I couldn't really comment on Russian ladies as not been to Russia only the Ukraine. I'm going to Russia early next year so will reserve judgment till then . My guess is that I don't at the moment see why the two would be any different. Lots of hot women, far more than here in the UK at any rate in both countries. I'll most likely be travelling to SPB then perhaps Moscow depending on how my search goes, then if I find I prefer Ukrainian women I'll go down there or on another visit if time is running short by then.

I've met Ukrainian women when there and find them lovely, but some things work out and some don't, and some less than genuine people are found in many countries but most I found I had no issue with at all. I think perhaps some posters here may have been stung by the dating 'industry' in the Ukraine and are rather sensitive and maligned on the topic of Ukrainian women, I understand this as though its not happened to me the stories you hear it no doubt cuts quite deep. Just my thoughts.

[ML]

As far as looks go . . . I didn't observe much difference between RW and UW.  And I have been to both countries several times on business trips.  Probably can find more blondes in the north of Russia, if you like that.  And you can find more taller gals in the north of Russia.

Regarding morally and crazier, I didn't notice much difference there either.

I did, however, find one major difference in UW and RW.

UW are much more hard working than are RW around the house.

I had several RW in my apartments, and only 1 or 2 out of 10 would volunteer to cook, tidy up a bit, etc.  They were very big on going out to restaurants.

With UW, it was 9 out of 10 who would readily volunteer to cook, tidy up, etc., and even wash my underclothes by hand in the tub or bathroom sink. They often would say restaurants were too expensive and they wanted to take care of their man themselves.

Of course each woman differs, but I had a rather large sample size to judge with, compared to most men here.