Life Changes...Part Deux

[Gylden]

SJ,
Tosh??? Are you serious? I hope you are not implying that anyone who doesn't conform to you own ideals is some tosh.

Don't you think in a partnership of equals that two people can agree upon a dellagation of responsibilities? Including making an ultimate decission?

I agree with you, if a man and a woman are far off on big issues such as kids or not, they shouldn't be married in the first place. (unfortunately this happens all of the time)

[Daveman]

"New age sensitive man"? What tosh. Not unless that's your label for a man in a partnership of equals. In a relationship where "dead locks" about very important issues arise, like for instance whether to have kids or not, perhaps it's a sign that the relationship shouldn't exist in the first place. After all, partners are supposed to be compatible and very serious issues without possible compromise should not exist.

This is pretty much how I look at it.  Major issues should be found and resolved prior to marriage, and "love conquers all" is an absolute farce.  Another reason communication is paramount.

Compromise to a degree will always be necessary, even between very compatible partners, but it's also like band-aids for the relationship.  The more compromise required, the less compatible two individuals actually are.  Just once again stating the obvious.  If compromise is the glue holding a relationship together, it'll eventually fall apart completely. Not only that, over time it causes and builds resentment.  

It's not easy to find someone in total alignment with one's self, but, IMO, any other kind of relationship has a built in life span from the outset.

[Misha]

As BF says. Are you telling me that some men are so fragile in their masculine identities that their wives must let them think that they are making all the decisions? In other words their wives will happily tell them what to decide or as Doll says will say yes and then do as they please. Seems like quite the charade to simply have the pleasure of going to a forum and say "I am the MAN"

[Misha]

Daveman, my wife wanted scrambled eggs for breakfast and I wanted pancakes. We decided to compromise and eat an omelette. Should I call a divorce lawyer this afternoon LOL! My advice to those who want a perfect relationship where they will be the man, make all the decisions and never compromise: stay single

[Misha]

Don't you think in a partnership of equals that two people can agree upon a dellagation of responsibilities? Including making an ultimate decission?

To answer your question, no I do not think it is possible.

[Gylden]

Misha,
Not sure what you are talking about, seems you forgot to post something?

Do you think my marriage is a charade?   What could you possible know about it?

Sure I just missunderstand.

[Gylden]

Misha,

??? OK well I am very sure we just missunderstand now.

 ???

[Daveman]

Daveman, my wife wanted scrambled eggs for breakfast and I wanted pancakes. We decided to compromise and eat an omelette. Should I call a divorce lawyer this afternoon LOL! My advice to those who want a perfect relationship where they will be the man, make all the decisions and never compromise: stay single

Such disagreements should always be settled by a good pillow fight - winner take all!!  

A *perfect* relationship can be considered to not exist, but I think it's more along the lines of how two individuals handle give and take. Sometimes put your partner first, sometimes allow them to put you first.

My comments about compromise still stand though - it's necessary in any relationship between two individuals but the MORE compromise there is, the less compatible two people are.  

[Misha]

Misha,
Not sure what you are talking about, seems you forgot to post something?

Do you think my marriage is a charade?   What could you possible know about it?

Sure I just missunderstand.

You did not quote properly: you put your words inside my quote and I could not be bothered to go back and fix your post.

Is your marriage a charade? My we are touchy this morning as this is not what I wrote. However, I will say that it is a charade for a man to believe he is making all the decisions when he merely ratifies what is going to be done anyway. Sure, some wives "let" their husbands think that they are making all the decisions. Whether this applies to you, do not know, do not really care either.

[Misha]

Dave,

Perfect compatibility would make for a deadly dull marriage

Perhaps I was fortunate to grow up in a house full of siblings. Learned quickly that I was not going to be getting my way most of the time let alone all the time

Misha

[Gylden]

As BF says. Are you telling me that some men are so fragile in their masculine identities that their wives must let them think that they are making all the decisions? In other words their wives will happily tell them what to decide or as Doll says will say yes and then do as they please. Seems like quite the charade to simply have the pleasure of going to a forum and say "I am the MAN"

I think you are the touchy one Misha, what I said was that I was sure I missunderstand.

I never wrote anything which could be missinterpreted the way the highlighted portion of your quote implies.

If you don't care what other people write here about their own experiences, does it mean you are only here to teach?


As I said earlier, to have the decision making role does not mean that one gets his/her own way exclusively. It just means that they take on the responsibility to make the final decision in matters where there is doubt.


I myself in our relationship have this role and my wife and I allways discuss things and I appreciate and respect her position completely.

[Misha]

I think you are the touchy one Misha, what I said was that I was sure I missunderstand.

Well, in that case, I will affirm that yes that is what I meant. If someone really feels that they must prove that they are the "MAN" by making all the decisions (or at the very least having their wives think that they are making all the decisions), then yes, IMHO, they are insecure in their masculinity.

I never wrote anything which could be missinterpreted the way the highlighted portion of your quote implies.

Ah, so what did you imply by your reference to "new age sensitive men"  :evil:

If you don't care what other people write here about their own experiences, does it mean you are only here to teach?

No, but I do not take forum posturing as gospel truth either and do not see any many here as the sage to be followed either (myself included)  :evil:

As I said earlier, to have the decision making role does not mean that one gets his/her own way exclusively. It just means that they take on the responsibility to make the final decision in matters where there is doubt.

I will once again affirm that it is possible for two people to find a common decision that will satisfy both of them. If anything, it will likely lead to a better decision. If consensus cannot be reached, it forces both to look for other options that can result in better choices that will be invariably better for both of them in the long run.

I myself in our relationship have this role and my wife and I allways discuss things and I appreciate and respect her position completely.

Again, if you respect her position completely, you will never make a decision that she is not in agreement with, so you are still making decisions together, which is the model that I favor  

[Gylden]

Misha; ” Well, in that case, I will affirm that yes that is what I meant. If someone really feels that they must prove that they are the "MAN" by making all the decisions (or at the very least having their wives think that they are making all the decisions), then yes, IMHO, they are insecure in their masculinity.”

Here you are most certainly mistaken or you are referring to someone else’s post, not mine. I never said anything about proving manhood, I agree with your statement, but it doesn’t deserve to be in a post referring to a quote of mine.

Misha; “Ah, so what did you imply by your reference to "new age sensitive men"

What I mean, is a man who is trying to comply with what he thinks others will view as PC or modern, without being sincere.

Misha; “No, but I do not take forum posturing as gospel truth either and do not see any many here as the sage to be followed either (myself included)”

Agree with you here 100% and it was part of what motivated me to post what I posted.

Misha; “I will once again affirm that it is possible for two people to find a common decision that will satisfy both of them. If anything, it will likely lead to a better decision. If consensus cannot be reached, it forces both to look for other options that can result in better choices that will be invariably better for both of them in the long run.”

Again 100% agree with what you say here. In the case of no consensus? (and I am not talking about major differences, such as having children or any other such “major” decision)

Misha; “Again, if you respect her position completely, you will never make a decision that she is not in agreement with, so you are still making decisions together, which is the model that I favor”

Well basically yes, but as I originally stated, if we have agreed that I take the final decision, then she is in agreement. However as you probably would agree, there do come times when we don’t agree 100%, it is only normal (and of course after discussion of a suitable amount for the issue). We find it works quite well for someone to have the responsibility of the final say. Something this can include and does, is the decision to turn over the authority to the other person in certain matters.

I apologize if my skills at navigating these forum intricacies are not “up to speed”, I am not trying to make it difficult for you to read or quote, just don’t know how to post quotes like some of you do.
 

[Gylden]

So when this good man doesn't get his way, who, really, has made the decision?
Or is it important for this man to be the nominal decision maker while his good woman does all the real decision making?

Not sure what you mean by "doesn't get his way", if he is the one making the final decision, then he does actually get his way, maybe without his wife he would have decided differently, but when man and wife work as a real team, her wishes will allways enter the equation.

Let me make something very clear here also, I think someone mentioned it earlier in this thread. If a man and a woman are far from each other, or differ in their principals or values, etc. They are by no means marriage candidates IMO.

 

[Doll]

Not sure what you mean by "doesn't get his way",

Misha means that "his way" contradicts his wife's opinion.

[Doll]

To answer your question, no I do not think it is possible.

I don't think so either- when one makes the decisions and the other relies on it (making the decisions), it is NOT an equal partnership, it is not a partnership at all.
It is the case of the boss and the employee (father-daughter)

[Misha]

Not sure what you mean by "doesn't get his way", if he is the one making the final decision, then he does actually get his way, maybe without his wife he would have decided differently, but when man and wife work as a real team, her wishes will allways enter the equation.

A real team, IMHO, means equal partners and equal partners means that both have an equal say in making decisions and an equal right to veto any decision made. Doll is right, if it is done otherwise, then it is a boss-employee relationship or parent-child relationship.

Let me make something very clear here also, I think someone mentioned it earlier in this thread. If a man and a woman are far from each other, or differ in their principals or values, etc. They are by no means marriage candidates IMO.

Yes, but you are also the one, along with Billy, implying that a real man must make all the decisions. A husband and a wife can share the same principle that they are equal partners and one does not make all the decisions, even if they promise to consult 

[Misha]

Misha; “Ah, so what did you imply by your reference to "new age sensitive men"

What I mean, is a man who is trying to comply with what he thinks others will view as PC or modern, without being sincere.

Some of us actually prefer being married to women who are our equal partners. I want a wife, not a student (as Billy seems to be implying in terms of his preferences and his definition of what it means to be a "man"). Has nothing to do with being PC or being modern.

However as you probably would agree, there do come times when we don’t agree 100%, it is only normal (and of course after discussion of a suitable amount for the issue). We find it works quite well for someone to have the responsibility of the final say. Something this can include and does, is the decision to turn over the authority to the other person in certain matters.

In my experience, if both put the effort into it, they are quite capable of finding a solution that is good for both. Yes, it requires more time, yes it takes more effort, but when you do it you will both be much happier at the end of the day.

[Seeker]

Some of us actually prefer being married to women who are our equal partners. I want a wife, not a student (as Billy seems to be implying in terms of his preferences and his definition of what it means to be a "man"). Has nothing to do with being PC or being modern.

In my experience, if both put the effort into it, they are quite capable of finding a solution that is good for both. Yes, it requires more time, yes it takes more effort, but when you do it you will both be much happier at the end of the day.

Personally, I am looking for an equal partner... just as you describe.

See GQ... I can keep it simple too.   

[Gylden]

A real team, IMHO, means equal partners and equal partners means that both have an equal say in making decisions and an equal right to veto any decision made. Doll is right, if it is done otherwise, then it is a boss-employee relationship or parent-child relationship.

Yes, but you are also the one, along with Billy, implying that a real man must make all the decisions. A husband and a wife can share the same principle that they are equal partners and one does not make all the decisions, even if they promise to consult 

Sorry Misha, but you are completely WRONG here, show me where I implied such a stupid statement. (you among others are IMO overreacting, of course you are free to do so)

As far as equal partners, what are we splitting atoms here? The term partners can also have business implications to it. Why are you so threatened by what I and my wife have? I am not telling you that you are wrong for believing in what you believe in, I am just sharing my experience and supplying the reasoning behind it.

I am lead to believe you are talking about much larger issues here, which need resolving, in a marriage which maybe should not have occurred in the first place.


But PLESE try not to put words in my mouth.

[Doll]

A real team, IMHO, means equal partners and equal partners means that both have an equal say in making decisions and an equal right to veto any decision made.

   By the way, in case of "pancakes or eggs" it is ok if the wife and the husband eat different food, as long as they stay together. It probably is not that perfect but has something to do with the partnership for sure. Partners don't have to agree all the time- they can make their own decisions.
By NO means, partnership is when " I always rely on my man's decisions because he is always right or "because he said so". Why so? Just because everybody makes mistakes (big ones too).
    

[Misha]

Why are you so threatened by what I and my wife have?

But PLESE try not to put words in my mouth.

Threatened by what you and your wife have? Where exactly are you reading that I am "threatened"? I am affirming that a man can treat others as equals and a man will treat his wife above all others as an equal. I believe that a wife has as much right to have a final say in the marriage as the husband. If you and your wife want to do it differently, feel free, but don't expect me to agree with you.

As for putting words in your mouth, you are the one posting your words and you seem to be offended when we simply call you on your own words.

[Gylden]

Misha,
Come on, are you showing the way you can discuss things?

Show me my words, which lead you to believe I implied anything about the behavior of a "real man".

I have tried to clarify this to you, but to me it seems you are too much in a froth to understand.

Also I didn't mean that I though Billy was a "new age sensitive man". I don't happen to agree with his position either, but I think you have lost touch with that fact as well.

[Misha]

Misha,
Come on, are you showing the way you can discuss things?

Show me my words, which lead you to believe I implied anything about the behavior of a "real man".

I have tried to clarify this to you, but to me it seems you are too much in a froth to understand.

Glyden, I am really starting to wonder about you.... The only one in the froth seems to be you. Let's see, you seemingly agreed with Billy's definition of the need to be the man which is to be the decision maker and you threw in the "new age sensitive men" snarky comment to clearly put down those who do not agree that to be a man can also mean wanting to be in an equal partnership that some of us call marriage. Clearly, you do not want to acknowledge the intent of your own words. That is your problem, not mine.

Also I didn't mean that I though Billy was a "new age sensitive man". I don't happen to agree with his position either, but I think you have lost touch with that fact as well.

Good, because this is certainly not what you were implying. So tell me, what is it that you actually believe?

[Gylden]

Glyden, I am really starting to wonder about you.... The only one in the froth seems to be you. Let's see, you seemingly agreed with Billy's definition of the need to be the man which is to be the decision maker and you threw in the "new age sensitive men" snarky comment to clearly put down those who do not agree that to be a man can also mean wanting to be in an equal partnership that some of us call marriage. Clearly, you do not want to acknowledge the intent of your own words. That is your problem, not mine.

Good, because this is certainly not what you were implying. So tell me, what is it that you actually believe?

I have asked a few times to quote me where you seem to think you know what I was implying and you won't do it. I did make a statement referring to Billy's traditional views about the mans role in marriage, but I never said I agreed with it. I also said that in our marriage, my wife and I agreed that in the case of an impasse, that I would make the final decision. What you are trying to inject here is that it is some sort of a mechanism to override her wishes, which it is not.


As far as the "new age sensitive man" thing, I have explained it briefly already. These are guys who are trying to be someone they are not. Trying to conform to an image of what their concept of societies expectations are of a modern man. Not sincere about their beliefs.

I do enjoy to read about others experience/beliefs and such and normally I agree with what you post. Just I perceived earlier up thread that we had a missunderstanding and I said something about it right away.