http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Today's info shows a ray of sunshine as the total falls below the exponential rate consistently seen from the start through 27 January.
The slowing of confirmed cases in China can be seen in this Johns Hopkins chart.
http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
A cynic could argue that growth slowed for just one day or the Chinese statisticians took a break to rest for a day. :D Neverthless the total number is well less than that predicted just a few days ago by Bianco's exponential growth.
We just hope the Chinese are reporting actual data.
BillyB-
I thought China was in fact pro-active about this. They had quarantined the entire city proper FWIW, and immediately issue travel warnings, building makeshift hospitals to treat those afflicted, etc...(?)
It's OK. I read a report the common flu virus killed 10,000 Americans last year alone. Denge fever had so far killed 5 Bolivians this year so far, etc... Big Deal right?
According to our liberal zealots the world is imploding by 2012 making whatever China is doing, or not, seem rather trivial, don't you think?
The numbers are 10x lower than 'actual' we'll see in the coming days I suppose.
Currently it's showing about a 15% mortality rate (25,000 Dead / 155,000 Infected) which also coincides with what the Medical Journal stated as well.
This would also make more sense as to why Crematorium workers at all 3 Crematoriums are working 24/7 With forced overtime.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/we-cant-stop-funeral-worker-says-wuhan-cremating-at-least-100-bodies-a-day-amid-coronavirus-outbreak
Gilead, an American company, applied for a treatment virus patent three years ago. The target of this treatment was the Ebola virus. One of the patent applications was filed in China. China rejected the patent, even though part of the purpose of the patent was anticipated viral agents similar to Corona.
In other news Chinese doctor who was punished for trying to warn the public early about the virus now has the virus himself.
http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/chinese-doctor-punished-for-warning-people-about-coronavirus-now-has-the-illness-203152013.html
Chinese doctor now dead.
High amounts of Sulfur Dioxide showing all over the populated areas of China. The burning of organics which includes human bodies emits Sulfur Dioxide. Wuhan is showing the most Sulfur Dioxide.
http://www.windy.com/-Show---add-more-layers/overlays?so2sm,44.402,40.957,3
Nearly 16,000 new cases of infections today which is the biggest one day jump ever.
This needs explanation.
The WHO gives the virus a new name so it doesn't offend or apply a stigma to a certain group people or animals.
People are probably wishing they cancelled their vacations to Asia like common sense told them so.
More people will die from 'flu in the UK / US than your 'fixation' ..
'People' are wondering why you are posting tosh about this virus ..
You KEEP posting about face-masks ... and I keep telling you that the face-masks most folk wear are useless after they become damp - six minutes ...
More people will die from 'flu in the UK / US than your 'fixation' ..
SC is in Asia and I'm NO more worried about her catching Covid-19 than I am you telling 'the world' another version of "How Moby kept SC waiting" and "V wasn't avoiding signing divorce papers" ...or even repeatedly stating "Moby didn't tell partners about his affliction" ..
You ARE a 'virus'..))) Just not a very infectious or serious one
You can't stop
You are very weak in many areas, especially in math and common sense. If you were to get infected this year from a virus and you had a choice, would you want the flu virus or the new coronavirus?
I often think about the upcoming new flu variant and how the US/UK is preparing to Quarantine 60 Million people for flu season.
SC is in Asia and I'm NO more worried about her catching Covid-19
Where did he keep posting about face-masks?
Moby thinks the flu is worse than the coronavirus.
Stats for this virus are always behind reality and your quoting a state that is hardly honest about ANYTHING ...and keeps a close tab on folks venturing too far from the beaten track is risible.
How many people have died from the virus outside China...from nations that can be relied on to be trying to be accurate?
That is even more reason to doubt whether China has this virulence under control.
On the time scale, other countries are behind China. Wait 3-4 weeks.
It is more likely than not that the US will avoid an epidemic. However, it is prudent and reasonable to assume some infected people entered the US undetected. In 3-4 weeks we can be sure.
Until then if I were travelling in emerging Asia I would be somewhat cautious (avoid crowds, wash hands frequently, never touch the face especially the nose, no raw food).
How many people have died from the virus outside China...from nations that can be relied on to be trying to be accurate?
Each nation with citizens are putting their best doctors and scientists on the very few that are infected. They get the best care, immunity boosters, help with breathing and medicine to regulate temperature. The are doing their best to learn about the virus and keep the handful of people alive. Now if they let it get out of control and have 60,000 infected, not everybody will get the best medical staff, treatment, and drugs to beat the virus.
When someone gets a flu virus, they can beat it at home or visit a below average doctor in a small clinic to get told to get rest and get prescribed a few common drugs to regulate temperature and relieve symptoms. An average person with the flu doesn't need the best of the best to beat it.
Nothing in BillyB's link suggests the Chinese are 'lying', now.
The Chinese don't suggest they lie yet the reason they give for the low numbers that were previously reported is because the old methods they've used to count were to blame. You can trust their new method to count infections and deaths if you want but I don't trust them. Apparently a lot of people died already and it was documented something else killed them but it's too late to go through their cremated ashes to do another autopsy.
You have this BAD habit of making assertions that you cannot know about - yet are also v.quick to tell others they shouldn't trust what they hear from untraceable sources ..
If this virus comes to the UK / US in serious numbers - do you think 'we' have enough 'hazsuits et al ' to cope for long ?
Wasn't China asking for help with supplies?
Do you know the 'source' of Ebola or HIV? Do you understand virus' mutate ?
if you think the Chinese govt labs have unwittingly infected it's people .. I suspect that - even in China - it'll get out ..
Unless you grow your own food and live in the wilderness - that seems impossible ?
Patient one of the Ebola virus was bitten by a bat.
HIV is in primates.
Infectious diseases laboratories are specially built to treat everything leaving it. That includes air and sewer so to make sure nothing deadly gets out alive. The most likely case is a worker unknowingly got the virus and took it outside the lab. The way the Chinese government protect their medical workers against a deadly virus may give us a clue how they handle things elsewhere.
Scientists do not know where Ebola virus comes from. However, based on the nature of similar viruses, they believe the virus is animal-borne, with bats or nonhuman primates with bats or nonhuman primates (chimpanzees, apes, monkeys, etc.) being the most likely source.
Source? : 'Your' very own CDC
The CDC doesn't know where the virus came from but they know it's in certain animals and they can pinpoint the animal responsible for the outbreak. the 2014 outbreak came from bats as the first patient was bitten by one according to the CDC. When an outbreak happens, it's important to identify the source to prevent more infections from happening.
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/history/2014-2016-outbreak/index.html
760 million people under quarantine.
China continues to report incomplete if not questionable data, meaning we have no scientific assessment of the trajectory of the endemic.
This obviously will affect their economy.
I deal with Chinese people re designs, production, delivery and find them to be generally very efficient and organised...
The problem is the folk who run things like Communists do ...
Our stuff is taking a DAY longer than normal - I don't know if we'll be delayed re any components that might come from effected areas ....
"Russia halted most air traffic to China, suspended all trains to China and North Korea,
Why 'manufacture' a virus with a low kill rate and no vaccine ?
How would you expect the Chinese to trace an animal source when other earlier viral epidemics haven't been traced back to 'ground zero' ?
Not many folks know that HIV may have been around nearly 200 years ..
Who told you the new coronavirus has a low kill rate? China?
Even if a biological weapons have a low kill rate, it's still an effective weapon.
You do not understand warfare.
Killing isn't the only way to take a soldier off the battlefield. Google "toe popper". It's a cheap land mine that isn't designed to kill but destroy a foot. When a soldier has his foot damaged, it takes at least two other soldiers to carry him back to camp which means at least three soldiers are out of the fight. If soldiers are getting the flu, they are in no shape to fight and will infect other soldiers to make them in no shape to fight.
Why no vaccine? If it's easy to create a vaccine, it's easy for the enemy to create a vaccine to defeat the biological weapon. Genetically modified biological weapons are designed not to be easily defeated.
Yes, animal meat was blamed. China says the source came from an illegal meat market yet they haven't identified the meat. Go figure. Stupid people believe them. China shut down the meat market. They can take all meat and check for the virus at the lab next door.
May? HIV has or hasn't been around for nearly 200 years. Saying "may" sounds like you and your source don't know the truth.
How many people have died from the virus outside China - in comparison to those infected ?
WHO date from 22nd Feb
Outside of China
1402 confirmed (202 new)
28 countries (2 new)
11 deaths (3 new)
So, are WHO 'making it up' ..?
Only if you have a defence ( vaccine) or some way to ensure your own side don't get infected
You've already proven YOU do not understand biology,
You see, BillyB, nothing in this field of biology is 'black and white' ..
You KEEP on proving what you're learning is from Google, rather than having studied biology to an advanced level ..
John Hopkins has the data reported from each country and 17 people outside of China has died. 187 people outside of China have recovered.
1 out of every 11 people die or just over 9% of the people will die and these first cases have the best doctors and treatments available. If 70,000 people were infected, the best medical professionals and facilities would not be available to all infected. I do not count the infected cases into the fatality rate because it is unknown what side of the fence the infected will fall on at the end of their battle with the virus.
9% death rate is a lot worse than the common flu which has a .1% death rate. 1 out of 11 dying is a lot worse than 1 out of a 1000 dying. Do you understand the math and the reason WHO is now claiming this can turn into a pandemic?
Now some Chinese provinces have over a 700 recovery rate with only 1 person dying while the Hubei province which includes the city of Wuhan has 6.5 people recovering for every person dying. 700 to 1 recovery to death ratio vs 6.5 to 1 recovery to death ratio means Chinese people in some provinces have super immunity systems compared to Chinese in other provinces or China is lying in some, most or all of their provinces reporting.
http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Biological weapons get invented before any cure does. Does that not make sense to you? Nations who are into making biological weapons don't expect them to escape onto their own people so any time spent on making a cure comes later.
What biology expert in this world that you rely on that has got this coronavirus all figured out? Yourself? Because you are a carrier of a virus which makes you the expert on viruses?
OUTSIDE CHINA:
Deaths v infected 11 / 1402 less than 1 percent
CHINA
2348 / 77794 3 percent
These figures are based over a long time and become more realistic with every day - in percentile terms )
Deaths v infected 11 / 1402 less than 1 percent
CHINA
2348 / 77794 3 percent
Survival rate isn't deaths v infected, it's deaths v recovered. For some reason you and many journalists out there just lumped tens of thousands of people who are currently infected into the recovery camp and try to tell everybody it's not much worse than the common flu. It would be like me trying to lump all the infected into dead camp to show everybody how deadly this virus is. You don't know if those infected will remain alive or dead after their battle with the virus. I keep telling you that but you don't get it. If you currently are battling lung cancer, do you lump yourself into the lung cancer survivor category or the lump you into the group of people who lost the battle with lung cancer? You won't know until the battle is over. Over 77k people worldwide is infected with the virus but you already lumped them into the survivor category to fit your narrative that there is a high survival rate. Fake news.
My wife and I are planning a travel holiday this spring. I really like Hawaii, yet I had this nagging concern that if COVID 19 continued to spread, Hawaii would likely become a "hot spot" due to much of its tourism originating from Asia. I would not fear becoming ill as much as getting caught up in travel bans and other quarantine measures.
Our travel holiday planning is now on hold. First time in my life this has happened.
Hopefully, the world's health organizations turn the corner soon on this serious virus.
You are a US Citizen .. You live in Florida - do you need a Beach holiday ? What about Alaska ?;))
RWD's Sandro resides in Milan. We wish the best for him and his city-county neighbors.Thanks for your concern, no alarms until a few days ago :(.
Maybe Sandro has some info. I understand Milan schools have been closedFor a week initially as a precaution, also other places where many people congregate like cinemas, theatres, museums, discoes, etc. This is also our Carnival week, and the worst hit financially will be Venice.
All cases, except the the fatality near Padua at right, involved trips to China.
Wash those hands!I usually do :D.
Hawaii is more than beaches, much more.
Living in Florida, more than an hour on the beach becomes tedious. There is much to see in Florida; however, we have already seen it all including the off-the-beaten-path sites, e. g. Frank Lloyd Wright's one and only designed college campus and a rattlesnake festival (where tattoos outnumber teeth :D).
Alaska is similar to Russia except for the coast.
Our bad luck was that 3 people went to a hospital complaining of breathing difficulties BEFORE anything was known about the Chinese epidemic. Most infected are from the staff and patients of those hospitals :(.
We were thinking about a long motor trip in the northern Rockies looking for a possible summer home.
Hospital or hospitals? The latter would explain the wide spread, yet all within commuting distance of hospitals.2 hospitals, 1 in Milan and 1 south of it.
RWD's Sandro resides in Milan. We wish the best for him and his city-county neighbors.
We were thinking about a long motor trip in the northern Rockies looking for a possible summer home.
Give some thought to northern Michigan for great summer living.
Some experts say to start buying food that can last up to a 60 day quarantine in case the virus comes to your neighborhood. Better to do it sooner than later when panic happens and food lines are long.I wonder who your "experts" are :-\.
I wonder who your "experts" are :-\.
Corona has an incubation period from initial contagion of about 2 weeks, which is also the current quarantine period. After that, one is either dismissed as several already have, or retained to prevent further spreading and monitor developments: there have also been many cases of infected people showing spontaneous remissions.
My wife and I are planning a travel holiday this spring. I really like Hawaii, yet I had this nagging concern that if COVID 19 continued to spread, Hawaii would likely become a "hot spot" due to much of its tourism originating from Asia. I would not fear becoming ill as much as getting caught up in travel bans and other quarantine measures.odd, id be ,ore concered about illness than quarantine there seems to be a genuine risk of illness popping up almost anywhere
the financial fallout is going to get steeper
the bond market will be next...
it could get as bad as 2007 later this year....
...and I am SO relieved that we have the greatest president in the history of the universe now!!!
eventually, most of us are going to be infected
and 1-2% of us will die
This is nature sorting itself out and finding balance. It's been long overdue.
Natural selection? Within the human species? Or humans vs. viruses?
This is nature sorting itself out and finding balance. It's been long overdue.
Italy reports they have 322 people infected. They report 11 people finished their battle with the virus. 1 person fully recovered. The other 10 died.
The cruise ship reports they currently have 691 people infected and 3 people finished their battle with the virus and all 3 died.
Iran reports they currently have 95 people infected and 16 people finished their battle with the virus and all 16 died.
South Korea reports they have 1146 people infected and 32 finished their battle with the virus. 22 made a full recovery and 10 died.
I don't trust Chinese reporting. Their numbers imply there are 10 recoveries for every one death. Almost 10% or 1 out of 11 people die from this virus according to China so far. In comparison 1 out of 1000 people die from the flu.
http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
BillyB
Are you simply trying to prove that you like to argue with yourself, with your 'stats' and 'mortality rates'?
this is an RNA virus, this makes it very unlikely there will ever be a vaccine...
also no currently known anti-virals have been effective
I report the numbers the nations report. Not my stats. You're upset the numbers doesn't fit your narrative that this virus isn't much deadlier than the flu. China locked down 760 million people and 90% of their economy. China's neighbors completely closed their borders. Hello? Doesn't that tell you something? It's a good thing you're not in charge of a nation that is next door to China because you don't think what is going on is dangerous.
BAD SIGN - INEXPLICABLE CASE IN CALIFORNIA
COVID confirmed for one person with "....no travel history to an affected area and no known contact with a person previously diagnosed with COVID-19." This could be the start of community spreading.
She probably bought something on eBay, or from those internet roving merchants, and finally received shipment. I haven’t yet read if this virus is transmitted via touch, airborne, or other means.if it transmits through ebay we are going to be in deep trouble.
Italy reports they have 322 people infected. They report 11 people finished their battle with the virus. 1 person fully recovered. The other 10 died.if your numbers are correctedly depicted then this is going to be very bsd. it seems you are saying thta most people are still infected and it would seem many will be dead later...the way you characterize it is hardly anybody survives...if that is the cqse then in a few weeks 80k will be dead. we shall see
The cruise ship reports they currently have 691 people infected and 3 people finished their battle with the virus and all 3 died.
Iran reports they currently have 95 people infected and 16 people finished their battle with the virus and all 16 died.
South Korea reports they have 1146 people infected and 32 finished their battle with the virus. 22 made a full recovery and 10 died.
I don't trust Chinese reporting. Their numbers imply there are 10 recoveries for every one death. Almost 10% or 1 out of 11 people die from this virus according to China so far. In comparison 1 out of 1000 people die from the flu.
http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
She probably bought something on eBay, or from those internet roving merchants, and finally received shipment. I haven’t yet read if this virus is transmitted via touch, airborne, or other means.
There was a report of a Korean Airlines flight attendant that hubbed at LAX who was later found to be infected with the virus. There doesn’t seem to be a follow up report on this story.
China's central bank is taking steps to deep clean and even destroy its cash out of fears that the new coronavirus can survive on the surface of money and potentially spread, according to CNN.
But how long can the new coronavirus linger on surfaces, anyway? The short answer is, we don't know. But if this new coronavirus resembles other human coronaviruses, such as its "cousins" that cause SARS and MERS, it can stay on surfaces — such as metal, glass or plastic — for as long as nine days, according to a new study. (In comparison, flu viruses can last on surfaces for only about 48 hours.)
There currently is no definitive information on this virus transmissibility.
http://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html
Me?
I prefer to rely on a micro-biologist, RU qualified MD and retired surgeon .. AND the NHS ..
Already been proven. 9 days give or take. Your NHS takes 4 hours for an emergency visit on a good day. That's before a pandemic. Pretty sure I know why you're hoping this is just a case of the sniffles. Certain Demographic, Prior condition. Poor Medical Service. I can be in an ER in 8 minutes if I call now and say I'm having heart issues. Wish you luck ;)
Pretty sure I know why you're hoping this is just a case of the sniffles. Certain Demographic, Prior condition. Poor Medical Service.
I can be in an ER in 8 minutes if I call now and say I'm having heart issues. Wish you luck ;)
'proven' ? :wallbash:
1/ The NHS doesn't make folks wait to be treated until they can find someone to pay when ill... as happened with my first wife on a trip to Florida in 1994 .. She was in agony with acute Sinusitis... We had medical cover - but until I paid for the insurance excess - no treatment would be forth-coming ...
The NHS is under-funded and top heavy with managers ... the LAST thing it needs is 'help' from our cousins who don't think healthcare is a right.
2/ Just because there' BIG money involved in US healthcare in no way guarantees good care
3/ Your very own CDC seems o agree with the NHS, my micro-biologist , MD and retired surgeon..
Q: Am I at risk for COVID-19 from a package or products shipping from China?
A: There is still a lot that is unknown about the newly emerged COVID-19 and how it spreads. Two other coronaviruses have emerged previously to cause severe illness in people (MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV). The virus that causes COVID-19 is more genetically related to SARS-CoV than MERS-CoV, but both are betacoronaviruses with their origins in bats. While we don’t know for sure that this virus will behave the same way as SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, we can use the information gained from both of these earlier coronaviruses to guide us. In general, because of poor survivability of these coronaviruses on surfaces, there is likely very low risk of spread from products or packaging that are shipped over a period of days or weeks at ambient temperatures. Coronaviruses are generally thought to be spread most often by respiratory droplets. Currently there is no evidence to support transmission of COVID-19 associated with imported goods and there have not been any cases of COVID-19 in the United States associated with imported goods. Information will be provided on the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) website as it becomes available.
http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html)
I'm CERTAIN you're clueless - PERIOD .. :popcorn:
Your bizarre need to prove your daftness knows no bounds ... May be you've been listening to your President making a 'Richard' of himself re the virus and contradicting the CDC ?
If in the UK, I live a 20 minute plus drive from the nearest major hospital ... I've never felt the need to live close to a hospital's Accident and Emergency ..
*I* could pick up the phone and a paramedic - one's normally on station near the motorway junction, nearby - would be home in less time than you need to be in the ER.. and guess what ? No charge ..
The subject is COVID-19 and here's the World Health Organisation info on packages from overseas
Is it safe to receive a package from any area where COVID-19 has been reported?
Yes. The likelihood of an infected person contaminating commercial goods is low and the risk of catching the virus that causes COVID-19 from a package that has been moved, travelled, and exposed to different conditions and temperature is also low.
3/ Your very own CDC seems o agree with the NHS, my micro-biologist , MD and retired surgeon..
Upon admission, our team asked public health officials if this case could be COVID-19. We requested COVID-19 testing by the CDC, since neither Sacramento County nor the California Department of Public Health is doing testing for coronavirus at this time. Since the patient did not fit the existing CDC criteria for COVID-19, a test was not immediately administered. UC Davis Health does not control the testing process...
I am worried about this as I have gall bladder surgery scheduled for 10th of March.
But if the virus starts to be treated in my local hospital before that . . . .
Gall bladder pain has been fairly constant for past several days, but only around 2-3.
Was thinking about going to emergency room right now and tell them the pain is 9-10.
if your numbers are correctedly depicted then this is going to be very bsd. it seems you are saying thta most people are still infected and it would seem many will be dead later...the way you characterize it is hardly anybody survives...if that is the cqse then in a few weeks 80k will be dead. we shall see
...the Chinese scientists writing in The Lancet medical journal later revealed that the first patient known to have contracted the novel coronavirus had no link to the Wuhan seafood market (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3047646/no-link-seafood-market-first-case-china-coronavirus-chinese) that the Chinese government pointed to as the source of the outbreak. This would suggest that the virus all along was spreading via human-to-human transmission – and that the government was lying to the public from the very beginning of this catastrophe.
This week, The Coca-Cola Co. announced that it is experiencing both production and export issues of Diet Coke and other low-calorie drinks from China, which been ground zero for the outbreak.http://www.aol.com/article/finance/2020/02/27/why-diet-coke-may-be-in-shorter-supply-due-to-the-spread-of-coronavirus/23935688/
On Monday, Coca-Cola warned investors that its supply chain for an artificial sweetener and "certain other ingredients" sourced in China had been disrupted as a result of the outbreak, which has now killed more than 2,000 people around the world.
Trump is probably going to force private companies that manufacture masks to focus on manufacturing 300 million masks to combat the virus. Goal is to get a mask for every American and change slogan for 2020 election campaign to Make America Virus Free Again.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclusive-us-mulls-using-sweeping-powers-to-ramp-up-production-of-coronavirus-protective-gear/ar-BB10u5ge?ocid=spartanntp
I like the mask below. $9 and it fits snuggly over the face. I see a lot of Chinese not wearing their fabric masks properly. That aluminum strip needs to be form fitted over the nose otherwise air can get around the mask. Also needed is eye protection since the virus can get in the eyes and infect.
http://fadtype.com/DANIU-6200-N95-Double-Gas-Mask-Protection-Filter-Chemical-Half-Face-Respirator-Mask-1175732
South Korea is currently experiencing a virus explosion with over 2000 infected now but Canadian researchers estimate Iran has over 18,000 infected and are underreporting since they claim only 245 of their citizens are infected. Iran's deputy Health Minister said quarantines were a “Stone Age” way to address the problem, and Iran doesn’t need them. Later that evening he tested positive for the virus and then used a Stone Age solution quarantining himself for a modern day problem.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-t-hide-coronavirus-explosion-102629171.html
Iran's Vice President has tested positive for the virus. Like China, Iran is probably underreporting and nations neighboring Iran are shutting down borders. Russia is restricting all flights from Iran. There is good news coming out of Iran since there's less commercial planes available for them to shoot down. Tourism to Iran is going to take a dive and the economy will take a hit. North Korea better keep quiet about it's virus problems otherwise they will lose tourists too.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/irans-vice-president-tests-positive-for-coronavirus/ar-BB10u33i?ocid=spartanntp
Pope Francis was seen coughing a day after expressing his "closeness" to coronavirus victims in Italy.http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/pope-francis-coughing-a-day-after-expressing-closeness-to-coronavirus-victims
"I wish, again, to express my closeness to those who are ill with coronavirus and to healthcare workers who are caring for them," Francis said during a general audience in St. Peter's Square before Ash Wednesday mass. The comment was prompted by the presence of several people in the audience wearing protective masks, according to (http://www.romereports.com/en/2020/02/26/pope-francis-sends-message-to-people-infected-with-coronavirus/) Rome Reports.
The Vatican reported that Francis developed a "slight indisposition" on Thursday and that he canceled a planned mass at St. John Lateran Basilica. The nature of the pope's illness was not specified.
Although Italy has become center for coronavirus outbreaks in Europe, with more than 440 cases reported, Rome has been largely free of illness. Only three cases have been reported in Rome, and all have recovered, according to (http://nypost.com/2020/02/27/pope-francis-sick-a-day-after-supporting-coronavirus-sufferers/) the New York Post. Globally, over 80,000 cases have been reported.
Francis forewent (http://apnews.com/19233731504e19355613706cd4e4d380) the precautions that many other Catholic churches took in celebrating Ash Wednesday. As he rode through the square, the pope kissed the forehead of a child and shook the hands of many people gathered in the audience, a departure from his usual wave.
Meanwhile, in Venice, Ash Wednesday mass at St. Mark's Basilica was canceled after several people in the city tested positive for the virus.
Did you watch the video with that Deputy Health Minister wiping his face constantly? Seemed like something you'd see from a Plague or Zombie movie, then later that day announces he has it too.
I am worried about this as I have gall bladder surgery scheduled for 10th of March.tough spot you may be in. i just got opened up and feel real bad and unabl to do much but hopeufully will get better stronger before and if this virus starts to go 'viral'. personally if i were you i'd rathr get it behind me sooner rather than in 2 weeks. my hope is billyb's analsysis is flawed but i'm open to it being possible and i think we are one outbreak away from empty shelves and major disruptions. if you are infirm during a crisis it would be doubley disturbing... yeah maybe fill up your kitchen and extra tanks of gasoline, doubt you would need it but why not? gall bladder does help with immune system if i remmber right so that aint' good eitehr. good luck
But if the virus starts to be treated in my local hospital before that . . . .
Gall bladder pain has been fairly constant for past several days, but only around 2-3.
Was thinking about going to emergency room right now and tell them the pain is 9-10.
I used numbers from some nations who have some of the worst survival rates. As I type this John Hopkins reports 36,063 people in the world finished a battle with the virus. 33,253 made a full recovery. 2810 died. I suspect a lot more dead since China underreports and some countries like N Korea isn't reporting at all but for arguments sake, lets say the numbers are true. That means 7.8 % of the people are dying from this virus. Mortality rate is extremely high. If everybody in this world got this virus once, 600 million people will die. But that is not the scary thing we need to worry about.....
Our bodies already experiences coronaviruses that cause the common cold. There is no cure/vaccine for the common cold viruses. There probably won't be a cure/vaccine ever discovered for 2019 - nCoV. We may have to live with this virus forever and if it maintains a 7.8% rate of death for those infected and we catch this virus ten times in our lives, there's a good chance most of us will die from it eventually. This virus must be eradicated from the human body and if it did come from an animal, those animals must be liquidated. If humanity fails to control this virus and we have to live with it everyday like we do the common cold viruses, our life expectancy will be significantly reduced. this deadly virus will also modify our behavior on many levels.
Governments don't want to send the public into a panic but billions are being designated to find a cure. Every lab capable of inventing a cure is at work. If any nation fails to control the virus, they will spend even more quarantining people, closing schools, other places of public gatherings, and closing even their economy in an effort to beat the virus just as China is doing now.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/256521#definition
1/ most masks are STILL useless in preventing catching the virus -
BillyB
Have you self-isolated yourself -locked yourself away from physical contact with humanity based on your Armageddon wacko theories ?
In the meantime ..
1/ most masks are STILL useless in preventing catching the virus - if you knew you HAD the virus - they might prevent one spreading it .. if you changed the mask as soon as it was damp
2/ COVID-19 is a constantly mutating virus and those speaking of vaccines are talking out of their ..it's already been seen how one infected person, who infects another has a different strain
Your posts are akin to construction worker being put in charge of a micro-biology institute and making 'policy' ..
3/ How will any nation 'control' the virus ..?
CDC, hmmm..
In the case of the lone positive case of Covid-19 in California...
http://www.ucdavis.edu/news/coronavirus-patient-and-precautions-uc-davis-medical-center
...oh, and I'd like to add: "...low risk..." is still a *risk* just as 'almost dead is still alive'.
Sure enough, and just like that, it went from a lone positive case in California to 33 confirmed cases in just one day with active monitoring of 8,000 more. So the silly CDC hurried to change their silly criteria on testing protocol.seems like big news and that is somewhat buried...or what?
Good thing you've been put in charge of nothing.(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)
Masks can't stop a virus but masks stop airborne particles such as droplets from a sneeze the virus rides on. Maybe you believe people just sneeze out viruses all by themselves? A mask will stop most droplets if someone sneezes or coughs wearing one.Back in July 2018 I bought a pk of 50 surgical masks for 9.99 on ebay.
seems like big news and that is somewhat buried...or what?
The Moby crowd start writing articles.
.... so they decided not to test her for it. She went on as though she had the common flu and was not immediately quarantined.
From the info I have, it seems health agencies were rationing the specific COVID-19 tests to those known to have come in contact with China travelers or known infected patients.
Explanations for rationing:
- Test kits were in limited supply because most kits that had been shipped earlier had expired reagents.
- CDC limited the number of laboratories authorized to conduct the tests.
These screw-ups should not happen. More will be forthcoming on this issue.
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.the more I read the nastier this virus seems to be which is concerning. keep getting the same virus over again until it overwhelms the immune system and takes a person out. some people eliminated after one round others 2, 3 or 5 rounds. what a horrible thought.
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.
the more I read the nastier this virus seems to be which is concerning. keep getting the same virus over again until it overwhelms the immune system and takes a person out. some people eliminated after one round others 2, 3 or 5 rounds. what a horrible thought.
There's also a troubling video showing an American who got the virus on the cruise ship, 2 weeks later was cleared, then on Fox is seen coughing quite a bit, somewhat sweaty sharing a water bottle with his daughter.
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.
Reminds me of Spanish flu during WWI.Wow! M L .....Just how old are you bud?
The 1918 influenza pandemic (January 1918 – December 1920; colloquially (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism) known as Spanish flu) was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic), the first of the two pandemics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemics) involving H1N1 influenza virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1), with the second being the swine flu in 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic).[1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-1) It infected 500 million people around the world,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-FOOTNOTETaubenbergerMorens2006-2) or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_islands) and in the Arctic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic). The death toll is estimated to have been 40 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics) in human history.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-4) Historical and epidemiological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology) data are inadequate to identify with certainty the pandemic's geographic origin.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-FOOTNOTETaubenbergerMorens2006-2)I got the Hong Kong flu in '68--- it kicked my ass!
The 1968 flu pandemic was a category 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_Severity_Index) flu pandemic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flu_pandemic) whose outbreak in 1968 and 1969 killed an estimated one million people worldwide.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-3) It was caused by an H3N2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3N2) strain of the influenza A virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus), descended from H2N2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2N2) through antigenic shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift), a genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics) process in which genes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene) from multiple subtypes reassorted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassortment) to form a new virus. Because it originated in Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong), the pandemic is also referred to as Hong Kong flu.
"Maximum discipline", "Absolute Obedience" and loud speakers are being used to keep the virus from crossing the North Korean border. The whole country is under quarantine. Nobody in, nobody out. The people know the drill. They are no strangers to being locked down. In the photo everybody wears a mask except fearless Kim Jong Un who radiates strength and invincibility to his people. South Korea with over 2000 infected should use some of North Korea's methods of prevention.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/kim-warns-serious-consequences-virus-reaches-north-korea-005947594.html
He keeps trying. Hang on let me try old talk. HE couldn't SEE the similarities. Seeing his RIP will be GLORIOUS.
Blame China.
Since you invested in stocks, I'm sure you've taken a hit.
no, i don't blame china, unless it winds up being a bio weapon gone wild, which i don't think it is the case. virus's is a way of the world. reminds me of blaming trump, which also shouldn't be done either, in this case.
just so you understand people...
this disease is 50% more infectious than the flu
and twenty times more lethal....
"Let’s take one of the worst days so far – the 10th of February. Whilst we were enjoying our Public Holiday, 108 persons in CHINA died of Coronavirus.
BUT, on the same day
26,283 people died of Cancer
24,641 people died of Heart Disease
4,300 people died of Diabetes
and on that day, Suicide, unfortunately, took more lives than the virus did, by 28 times.
Moreover, Mosquitoes kill 2,740 people every day, HUMANS kill 1,300 fellow humans every day and Snakes kill 137 people every day."
"CORONAVIRUS IN NUMBERS AND WHY WE REALLY SHOULDNT PANIC"
So, why don't you tell us if you and your family have self isolated?))
China has been negligent. Regardless where this virus came from, it showed up last year and China did nothing except to silence those who were sounding the alarm. They let it get out of control in their country and into other countries affecting lives and economies. Although America has 66 infected, we are throwing billions of dollars to combat the problem and quarantining people last year but China didn't want to spend the money and hurt their reputation. Now they're going to spend a lot more money and take a bigger hit on reputation. If this problem was nipped at the bud, life would be fine. Now we have a real chance of living with this virus forever and it will alter our lives and economy forever.again blaming china for a virus, assuming it wasn't a weaponized virus is just silly. virus's happen, it has been that way since the beginning of time.
Based on your 'logic' and 'doomsday scenarios' you'd be MAD to go out...
again blaming china for a virus, assuming it wasn't a weaponized virus is just silly. virus's happen, it has been that way since the beginning of time.
Fires happen too. Let's say you got a small fire and call the fire department. They show up and a squirt of water in the kitchen would extinguish it but they say it's lunchtime and waste an hour eating. Instead of your kitchen getting burned up, your whole house burned down and you're angry. They respond "fires happen since the beginning of time. Don't blame us"
i don't see the situation as similar enough to use fire as a valid comparison.
i don't see the situation as similar enough to use fire as a valid comparison.
Where did I say for people to wear masks and stay at home?
Hmm is this the BillyB who thinks I've 'sentenced to death a Georgian border officer for telling her a surgical mask is next to useless .
I live life normally but I'm also aware how fast this thing can explode and will be prepared. Today the first American died from this virus in a hospital 30 minutes from where I live. Yesterday a teen who lives less than an hour away from me didn't travel and got infected from an unidentified person. This unidentified person can make this virus explode in my region. If an outbreak happens in America, I'm going to predict it'll happen in the Seattle region first. The recent events in Seattle are a sign an outbreak can happen soon as they will discover hundreds who may have gotten infected like the way it went down in South Korea, Iran, and Italy.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
We're going to err on the side of caution. We're going to run this thing to the ground to make sure we understand it!
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy.
The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse surrounds us.
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy.
The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse surrounds us.
Studies revealed (not sure who actually stood there and counted this) that an average person touches his/her face 3,000 times/day.
I don't think you've sentence her to death. I think you're an idiot. She may deal with thousands of people everyday and you're increasing the chances she and others getting infected.
How did you get her to pull off her mask? Did you tell her you're an infectious disease doctor?
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy.
The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse surrounds us.
PLE-EASE Explain your 'theory' / 'thought process' that arrives at such a 'conclusion' - given wearing a surgical mask is NOT going to protect her ... and makes it MORE likely she could become ill ..
WHERE do you read the wearing of a mask is necessary / advised in Public Health advisories on this virus?
...My mom was at Costco yesterday and the lines were the longest she ever seen. A neighbor was at the nearest supermarket and there was no bottled water on the shelves...
I don't understand the water grab though. It isn't like water will stop running off your faucets.
You're an idiot. There are people, such as that border agent that deals with the public. If management and infectious disease experts tell their employees to wear masks, you have no business to tell them the masks are useless. If an epidemic hits your town, you can run around without a mask as you please and get yourself killed but leave safety measures to the experts. Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid.
So to ensure she doesn't get the virus, make sure she refrains from touching her face...she can start modestly and be diligent at least for the first few minutes see how she fares after 24 hours.
Upon arrival she sprays me with Lysol, and it has to rest for 30 seconds before I wash it off.
My wife sprays Lysol after I use the bathroom to kill the stink. Fortunately she doesn't spray it on me. Lysol says on the can it kills cold and flu viruses. If you want your wife to stop spraying it on you, tell her the viruses are in the inside of your body, not outside. That might be a bad idea though if she decides to inject Lysol into your veins.
...tell her the viruses are in the inside of your body, not outside.
Regarding a vaccine, maybe next year.
Well, BillyB if you feel 'safer' wearing a respirator for protection, especially living in close proximity with the highest number of covid-19 cases in the country, you should.one of my silly adorable daughters ordered a bunch of the good facemasks online for all of us. i think it is nice caring gesture. I don't suspect they will ever get used, and if it comes to that, i think there will be big problems for the nation.
Now, if taking CDC's recommendation regarding respirators (face mask), just make sure it's rated as a 95, or better, a 99. Designation shown below from CDC's website:
one of my silly adorable daughters ordered a bunch of the good facemasks online for all of us. i think it is nice caring gesture. I don't suspect they will ever get used, and if it comes to that, i think there will be big problems for the nation.
Fathertime!
here's my take...
covid-19 has a 50% higher R0 or reproducibility rate than this yea's flu virus
the epidemic is entering a new phase in the USA
we think that this means that there are about 1,500 hidden unknown carriers of covid-19 in the USA right now
we are now in a race with the clock, the disease has established a local reservoir in the USA
the only question is, "how fast is it going to grow"? ....a linear stage and an exponential stage...
but what happens next October, when the flu season starts up again?
what will the infection rates be then?
Well, BillyB if you feel 'safer' wearing a respirator for protection, especially living in close proximity with the highest number of covid-19 cases in the country, you should.
Billy, if it'll make you feel any better, wifey tells me that her sisters in Germany and Canada just sent her pictures of their respective empty shelves for hand sanitizers. So she went to our drugstores and marts and saw the same thing. Empty shelves. She asked me to go search for it around where I work - same result.
Walmart, Target, CVS, Amazon, etc...pooof! Out of stock.
The shelf for those pocket and smaller sized disinfectant wipes is nearly gone, too.
Ever heard of a phrase: 'Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it'?
I have more than a few in my work SUV at our immediate disposal because these are vital components of our overall safety program (IIPP). Safety glasses, gloves, safety vest, hard hat, boots, etc...
But there will be Jokers like Moby who go around to government employees who work in public settings and to hospitals telling medical workers their masks don't work. Why do people conclude they are the authority on something after reading the news?
Because they studied Biology to an advanced level ( specialising in genetics) and understand .. Gosh these jokers aren't in biz with micro-biologists and retired surgeons .... We haven't been travelling around parts of Europe and Asia - 'marvelling' at the antics of some govts to 'control' said virus ..?
I'm of the opinion that it's better to get it .. and be done - rather than wait until it might be the health service is over-stretched..
We're not changing our life-style worrying about something that's far less likely to end us than being in a RTA..
You know those guys personally? They must be as nutty as you.
Governments are issuing out masks to health care workers who are handling infected patients. Why don't you visit those hospitals and tell them medical professionals the protective gear they're wearing is useless and see what they say?
http://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-03/battling-coronavirus-california-distributing-millions-of-face-masks-to-health-care-providers
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-needs-millions-face-masks-not-very-effective-preventing-coronavirus-2020-2
Go get it and you might be done done. Also the virus won't be done with you. You can keep catching it. Rich Chinese are bribing guards to get their families out of quarantined cities. I'm sure you can bribe a guard to get into one of those cities to get your virus.
Today WHO announced the death rate is at 3.4% and higher than previously thought! They were guessing previously? All of a sudden the death rate jumped 70% worldwide! When the virus came out, it was claimed it's not deadlier than the flu which kill .1% of the people it infects. Later this corona virus was thought to kill 2%. Now modern nations are reporting much higher death rates than China to bring up the death rate to 3.4% worldwide which is 34 times deadlier than the flu. I can tell you that is still a low number.
http://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/who-says-coronavirus-death-rate-is-3point4percent-globally-higher-than-previously-thought.html
Today at the John Hopkins website that keeps track of this virus, reported 2,647,665 infections worldwide for a short time it and then it got changed back into the 90k range. Somebody making an effort to get the truth out? Hacker games?
It's people like you that makes it hard to stop the virus. I got a worker who goes to the bar a lot. Kisses and sleeps with various women a lot. I told him to change his behavior if he wants to be around me. Pick a girl and go exclusive with her for a short time.
People don't have to stop living but everybody needs to participate to prevent the virus being spread recklessly. China, South Korea, Italy, and Dubai have closed all schools. Governments expect stupid to happen so they take action. Quit being stupid. Maybe you don't care about your life but at least care about others.
I highlighted in bold the relevant part ... INFECTED PATIENTS ... Are they wearing them in the street, or when they go off duty ... ?
Many cases of the Virus are so mild - they aren't reported / known to BE a notifiable case.. so the numbers are lower ..
as of last night the carona virus has suddenly sprung up a few miles away, walking distance. I suppose I'll casually stock up a bit on some of the essentials.
As a side note, one of the lines of products I have for sale is exercise equipment, over the past few weeks there has been a lot more sales than expected. I conclude that people are staying out of the gym, and choosing to exercise at home away from other people and the corona virus.
Fathertime!
So you want to revise your previous statement that masks don't work? Seems like you're acknowledging they will stop the virus when near an infected patient.
Right now, Italy reports 107 dead and 276 recovered after a battle with the virus. That's a 28% death rate for them at this moment which means it's 280 times more deadlier than the flu.
The Chinese province of Zhejiang of near the same population as Italy reports 1 dead and 1124 people recovered. .09% death rate which means less people there are dying from this virus than the flu.
Now you can continue to believe the Chinese has some kind of super immune system over Italians but I will continue to state Chinese severely under reports how bad the virus is. So while mortality rates are extremely high in most other nations, the Chinese brings death rate way down since they have the bulk of the cases so WHO now concludes death rate is 3.4%. I trust the Italian numbers more than the Chinese. As the rest of the world increases infections, deaths and recoveries and add more weight to offset the low Chinese death rate, you can expect WHO to revise the death rates even higher.
Hi FT !Hey Mooby!
We had a case around here weeks ago... the teacher had it... brought it from SE Asia .. No one has caught it the school is open again .. You'll be fine ;)
Took Mum to the local General Practitioners Surgery - she had an ear infection ... NO staff wearing masks - just lots of WASH YOUR HANDS..
WHO figures for Italy 4th March :
Confirmed cases: 2502, Deaths 80 - that's 3.8 percent
Data on number of cases is suspect because of limited capacity for lab tests. A couple of sources have said only 500 Americans have been subjected to lab tests.
Those with a high fever and no respiratory symptoms were probably misdiagnosed as something other than COVID-19 unless confirmed by lab tests.
Thus, death rate estimates are also suspect. We will know more in 1-2 weeks.
You don't seem to understand
I asked you, yesterday, where you sourced your WHO 'statement' re a higher percentage re mortality and you've not responded - other than producing BillyB Bollox data..
Now let's check WHO.int numbers for today ..
Based on reported cases v Deaths ..
China = 3.7%
and
the Rest of the World ..1.8%
I say again, anyone calculating a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is pushing the existing data too far. Not only are the data limited if not suspect, the data are not comparable (apples and oranges) from nation to nation. For example, Iran's initially reported 2 cases and 2 deaths - that's a 100% CFR.
At this very early stages of any pandemic, any report that tries to establish a kill rate ratio (averaging method) will always be flawed, BillyB. There were 3 infected people in California reported recently, and yesterday apparently one of them died. A 33% kill ratio?
This can become a worldwide plague that will make the history books unless we stop it soon.
...Back in January I factored the under reporting of China and death rate from the small sample, learned the characteristics of this virus, and learned a vaccine/cure many never happen, I sounded the alarm back then. This virus is really bad shit and could kill billions if Italy's and South Korea's death to recovery ratio holds. Numbers may go down a little since the best doctors and respirators to assist breathing are helping currently infected people beat the virus but if it gets out of control and everybody got the virus, there's not enough best doctors and respiratory equipment to go around so the death rate will skyrocket if humanity can't control the virus. This can become a worldwide plague that will make the history books unless we stop it soon.
... if this is a new viral strain, how could China determine how to test it, much less how to differentiate a person sick of the common flu from those on coronavirus?
Pneumonia of unknown cause reported to WHO China Office
31 December 2019
At the close of 2019, the WHO China Country Office was informed of a pneumonia of unknown cause, detected in the city of Wuhan in Hubei province, China. According to the authorities, some patients were operating dealers or vendors in the Huanan Seafood market.
Staying in close contact with national authorities, WHO began monitoring the situation and requested further information on the laboratory tests performed and the different diagnoses considered.
I need to ask, if this is a new viral strain, how could China determine how to test it, much less how to differentiate a person sick of the common flu from those on coronavirus?
Everything moved quickly after that obscure report.
It's actually easy to test. If doctors don't recognize it being a cold, flu or any type of virus they've ever seen, it's the new guy on the block. Did you read the translated Chinese article on the other thread I provided? Sept 18, 2019 article reported a man in Wuhan was discovered to have a corona virus that was never seen before. When a new bacteria, virus, animal, plant or whatever is discovered, it's supposed to be big news unless it's suppressed. Also other articles I provided said the virus showed up December 8 which is why doctors sounded the alarm before China notified WHO....
But again, what would be the point of concealing a 'new' virus from the scientific community? Pride? If politics, what would be the point?
Forget the Chinese, judge our own for a minute (CDC). Despite already being alarmed by what allegedly China had done, and the fact we are supposed to be a more clinically advanced than China, we still couldn't move fast enough, or properly enough, to put out test kits on time and/or what it is that needed to be done to determine every facets of what needed to be studied. Heck, look at the test criteria CDC gave before a test can be conducted? Again, this is way after the madness in China kicked in.
China was obviously in the dark in the first days of this disease outbreak. To illustrate the following is the first account the UN WHO reported about the disease.
Pneumonia of unknown cause reported to WHO China Office
31 December 2019
At the close of 2019, the WHO China Country Office was informed of a pneumonia of unknown cause, detected in the city of Wuhan in Hubei province, China.
Everything moved quickly after that obscure report.
The CDC started to ship test kits over a month ago. Back then, there were no outbreaks in America but the CDC was getting prepared for one. The problem was a regent in the test kits that made them faulty so it was wasted time and money. Back to the drawing board. I don't blame government on that. Government hired pharmaceutical companies, doctors and scientists to create the products the American public needs. They are human and mistakes happen.
As the highly infectious coronavirus jumped from China to country after country in January and February, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention lost valuable weeks that could have been used to track its possible spread in the United States because it insisted upon devising its own test.
The federal agency shunned the World Health Organization test guidelines used by other countries and set out to create a more complicated test of its own that could identify a range of similar viruses. But when it was sent to labs across the country in the first week of February, it didn’t work as expected. The CDC test correctly identified COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. But in all but a handful of state labs, it falsely flagged the presence of the other viruses in harmless samples.
That's not exactly what was reported, BillyB. We (CDC) decided to extricate itself from the global partnership and conduct their own testing method. Instead of partnering and sharing results and information, IIRC, CDC wanted to not only create a test kits to isolate COVID-19, but create a kit to also identify a wider range of viral pathogens.
http://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test
This seem to fly in the face of what you seem to be saying about China's slow reaction to the infection.
Global partnership? How many countries decided to WHO's guidelines instead of their own? I put a link up earlier that showed the first CDC's test kits had a faulty regent. It's a manufacturing defect which was corrected. Problem didn't have nothing to do with not following guidelines. The CDC doesn't need to follow the WHO's guidelines to make a properly working kit which we already have now.
Didn't see anywhere in the article that compliments China for a fast reaction to the infection. Taiwan reacted to the virus before China announced the newly discovered virus to the world. That's fast.
It's *reagent*. WHO is the scientific/medical global partnership. If you don't like this description, you can call it any other name you'd like. I, nor anyone in the article cited, mentioned anything about not following guidelines. What it reported was, CDC decided to conduct testing methodology on it's own instead of partnering with the WHO, global community, or whatever you want to name it.
As a consequence, it failed. The CDC applied methodology FAILED. Set them back weeks...whether you'd like to believe the report or not is entirely up to you.
I've searched, although not intensely, as to how those in the cruise ship in California got infected. Does anyone know?
No, but seems weird that of the 21 infected, 19 were crew members. The crews on these ships can be huge, numbering over 1,000.
Since the majority of infected are crew members, it could mean the infected passengers that infected them were on the previous cruise and those passengers are already back home all over America.
Billy, you are beginning to sound like Krimster.
Most deaths are occurring in elderly folks with underlying health conditions and compromised immune systems. Most of those infected outside 3rd world countries have symptoms of the common flu viruses and get over it naturally.
I would expect a decrease in the rate of transmission soon because of the change in temp
but then when flu season starts in October, I expect this to EXPLODE....
3 numbers really determine the mortality rate of a virus...
the first is R0, or reproducibility rate, the number of people on average a single infected person will infect...
this virus has is a 50% higher R0 then the common version of flu
next number is virulence, this virus is over 40 times more deadly than the flu and skews towards older people...
last is the size of the number infected, common flu can infect about 5% of a given population in just one season...that's 15 million, here in the US of A
If every person on earth got to experience this new virus once, we'd wish we had the flu instead.
I am guessing BillyB doesn't realise that many people hardly know they've had it ...
I have a feeling medics know and report, accordingly...
YOU blamed the Chinese ...
CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/high-risk-complications.html) advises the elderly to stock up on supplies and stay home as much as possible.
This is a great idea! For one, it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝
When will the world have therapeutic treatment for COVID-19?
Germany's Merkel warned that up to 70% of the country's population could become infected.For those that have been pooh pooh'ing the potential of this virus, the numbers and latest reactions should be a signal that this may wind up being extremely serious. I recall reading numerous times how this was killing so much less than the flu, or comparing abortions to the number of deaths.
Her point, and a good one, is that Germany needs to take measures not to prevent the outbreak but to slow it. Otherwise the Germany healthcare system will be overwhelmed. Does she plan to follow the Italy model?
it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝
One possible treatment is to use pharmaceuticals intended to counteract autoimmune diseases, because many of the COVID-19 deaths result from overreaction by the body's natural autoimmune system. Thus, one such pharmaceutical is that used to treat rheumatoid arthritis. Although not approved by FDA, it has been given to some patients on a "mercy" basis, and it was beneficial.
Supposedly those patients who have recovered from a COVID-19 infection have developed an immunity to contracting future infection.
I'm going to carry on for another day today. Going to be doing some driving through LA/IE today. I'll be curious to see if traffic is any different. I come in contact with a lot of people, and due to this I'd expect to catch the virus at some point if the numbers are correct. Maybe I survive but others around me most certainly would not, and the potential of that is disturbing enough to at least give me a moment's pause...nevertheless going to carry on for now. If clusters start to pop up in this area, I think I would indeed have to then reassess and perhaps button down, at which point everyone else would probably do the same, and the dreaded TP shortage would ruin my enjoyment of a good crap...among other things.
This is a great idea! For one, it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝
Not much traffic jams in Seattle right now. Feels nice but if people continue to lose school and work, the economy will suffer.
Then I mentioned and speculated about the Asiatic regions' love for their wet markets aka snake alleys, where there's a section of the markets where caged live animals of all types are offered and prepared as fresh meat, and I wasn't too far off apparently...
So, not a Chinese biolab error?..
BillyB...you have posted SO much nonsense re this virus...
So, not a Chinese biolab error?..
BillyB...you have posted SO much nonsense re this virus...
pot, meet kettle.
I'm sorry .. you may have taken a break from here ..perhaps you missed myself and others pointing out Billy's statistical flaws - with examples ..
'Surprise' me with a reasoned argument that my point was incorrect ..
Billy, did it ever occurred to you that if there’s any ounce of truth in your story that the Chinese government would immediately skin this scientist alive for inventing a weapon that only kills old farts with underlying medical condition to boot!?!
Could, but would it change your opinion with infallible evidence such as a Doc you know who knows these things and how he knows better than the CDC or WHO?
Especially after that was proven wrong? Likely not. Didn't you say it's best to get infected and get the infection over with to build an Immunity?
I heard your Health Minister just caught it. Perhaps you could illuminate her on how the Flu is worse and we need a herd immunity ASAP.
Inattentive, as ever .. The Doc / Micro-biologist in question are EXACTLY the type of people YOU should be listening to ...
I meant there might be a school of thought to get it EARLY.. as if there is a storm like in Italy .. if one gets respiratory problems - you'd stand less of chance of recovery ...
Once again, inattentive
'A' health minister ... not THE head of the Ministry ..
She's at home - not a hospital ..
Three strikes for inattentiveness
Shame this isn't baseball
Based on previous scores you'd be with a .000 average past Brexit.
Also, how accurate was that school of thought? The one you proposed after speaking to your MD and former MD colleagues who said it was a Flu and not to worry?
So, no 'counter' with any facts to support your drive-by troll ..?
I'm not worried .. I'm not in the 'at high risk' age group..
Flu' kills 1000's of elderly ppl in the UK, annually
pot, meet kettle.That might be an insult to pots and pans.
What is the coronavirus from China and what are the symptoms?http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
The Communist leadership over there said knock it off or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
Most of those videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.
That might be an insult to pots and pans.
The latest squawk from the left [CNN CBS MSMBC pundits] is that Republicans.. conservative news.. and Trump supporters are RACIST...calling the virus CHINESE. Thing is these hypocrites were saying that themselves back in January --- The Chinese virus..the Wuhan virus..etc
The Communist leadership over there said knock it off or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
Most of those videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.
That might be an insult to pots and pans.
Dammit TF, when I'm back in Texas we gotta meet so I can buy you (and yours) a beer.
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger.
Fathertime!
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...
WHO gave their praise Jan 9 after China reported the virus showed up Dec 31.
http://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china
After praising China for quickly identifying and managing the situation so it doesn't get out of control they said "WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."
Basically WHO gave everybody the green light to vacation in China which lost control of a situation that evolved into an epidemic. China didn't allow WHO's scientists and doctors in to evaluate the situation and help stop the virus so WHO took their word that they had it under control. When WHO was refused to evaluate the situation for themselves, it should've raised a big red flag and warnings to the international community should've started earlier.
WHO gave their praise Jan 9 after China reported the virus showed up Dec 31.as trump said during his little speech, 'virus have been around for a long time'. In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point. We (Along with other nations) have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did. We didn't. All these weeks/months have gone by, china can't be blamed for that. Some were even critical when china quarantined 100's of millions of their people. They took the right approach, while we (The US) may have been downplaying the virus the whole time. As we speak, I'm reading comments from trump fans still stating how the whole virus is a big hoax and exaggeration. As is usual, there is plenty of blame that we (The US) can take for our own delayed and potentially inadequate response.
http://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china
After praising China for quickly identifying and managing the situation so it doesn't get out of control they said "WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."
Basically WHO gave everybody the green light to vacation in China which lost control of a situation that evolved into an epidemic. China didn't allow WHO's scientists and doctors in to evaluate the situation and help stop the virus so WHO took their word that they had it under control. When WHO was refused to evaluate the situation for themselves, it should've raised a big red flag and warnings to the international community should've started earlier.
as trump said during his little speech, 'virus have been around for a long time'. In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point. We (Along with other nations) have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did. We didn't. All these weeks/months have gone by, china can't be blamed for that. Some were even critical when china quarantined 100's of millions of their people. They took the right approach, while we (The US) may have been downplaying the virus the whole time. As we speak, I'm reading comments from trump fans still stating how the whole virus is a big hoax and exaggeration. As is usual, there is plenty of blame that we (The US) can take for our own delayed and potentially inadequate response.
Fathertime!
Fathertime,If we let the likes of good old Mooby travel here who knows how many people he will infect with his hard head, fists, and toilet paper. It seems odd to ban European travel, yet not UK. Has to be for political reasons, nothing else makes sense.
As a Trump supporter we typically don't agree. But Let's assume today. There's 12 infected would you say inadequate? As the MOST (moobs enhanced) traveled through country yet still only having 1,300 6 weeks later. Would you say that's decent? If not? Please tell me what is your definition of winning? I want to know so I can contact my official.
And possibly, if China did the right approach? What would the left have done if you were infected and took you away? Would they be happy?
in re: to this "have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did." exactly what drastic measures are you talking about? I assume like Bernie. Best in theory and not practice.
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virusOf course they would--- both WHO and China live off your dime
it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger"In the know"? (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Of course they would--- both WHO and China live off your dime "(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)While I work very hard, I think I live well off of china's dime actually....
In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point.
FT, although WHO praised China in January, Trump imposed major flight restrictions on China in January. Article below. If you check anti Trump fact checking truth o meter sites, they will tell you Trump is lying about travel ban but evidence below that Trump took action in January.I wouldn't compare trump to democrats who aren't in the office of the president...i'd compare trumps actions to what his actions could have been. I'm not necessarily being critical of trump at this point, but reality is, if he knew the virus was extremely serious, some will say he didn't take enough steps to protect americans. Others might continue to state that the virus isn't much different than the flu and we are already doing too much.
http://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html
http://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
A few days later States complain about Trump's new rules that happened suddenly creating chaos and Democrats criticize there's no prior planning to him making a decision. I guess they wanted Trump to wait longer before enacting the restrictions. Are there any articles out there show Democrats would've taken action faster?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/03/coronavirus-airport-quarantine/
... but reality is, if he knew the virus was extremely serious, some will say he didn't take enough steps to protect americans.He suggested right away possibly stopping flights from China and the Main Slime Media blasted these "heartless" remarks.
Considering WHO was telling other nations trade and travel to and from China is fine, America still took action stopping flights and is not as bad off as Europe. Our spy agencies were probably listening on phone calls of Chinese government officials losing control and planning a coverup. Time will let us know how bad we got hit but so far, Europe has a much higher infection rate than America does.
BillyB
Which Schegen nation banned flights to/ from China first....WAY ahead of other EU nations..
How has that worked out for them...?
Surely, it wasn't Italy?...
I just now watched CNN Chis Cuomo coverage of Trump's speech.
Cuomo remarked less about the substance and more about Trump's breathing and body language. Acosta of course accused Trump of misleading the public, having to walk back some lies, xenophobia, etc. David Gregory partially defended Trump, yet criticized him for not showing empathy about the Italians. Gupta just gave the facts, useful facts.
You're obviously doing well mobs. 10x your size and yet? Let us know next week sweet cheeks.
BillyB
Which Schengen nation banned flights to/ from China first....WAY ahead of other EU nations..
How has that worked out for them...?
Surely, it wasn't Italy?...
Banning flights from China is not enough. The Chinese can then just get a flight to Germany and then fly into Italy. That is why Trump is banning not just flights but also individuals that pass through or lives in China and now many European nations regardless of what flight they are on.
I see from quotes that RWD's anti-American baldy from California has been blaming Trump and touting China.Humorous distortion. The US has to take the blame for not acting sooner if the virus was deemed as dangerous as it seems to be now. I remember Billyb commenting a long time ago at it's severity, if Billyb knew, why didn't the US top leadership know?
In summary, the Chinese were more interested in "production" than "prevention," and the world is reaping the whirlwind.what could also be said is the US and trump were more interested in the economy then saving US lives. We could have taken steps much sooner but choose not to.
Yes, the Chinese took draconian measures, something only an autocratic government could implement. But it was too late. The only good news is that China now reports data suggesting they are beginning to contain the epidemic within their borders.
Banning flights from China is not enough. The Chinese can then just get a flight to Germany and then fly into Italy. That is why Trump is banning not just flights but also individuals that pass through or lives in China and now many European nations regardless of what flight they are on.
Why can't we work together as we face this vicious pathogen, a pathogen that treats Republican and Democrats equally. Why do we need to recall how China put the world at risk:
I stopped wondering a day after last general election.How mean!
Don't mind FT so much...when things gets down and dirty due to lockdowns, you can trust the fact he'll be first in line to file for Trump's economic assistance program.
Er, do you think Italy doesn't know / didn't know how / when a Chinese national arrived in the Schengen zone ?
You said Italy had a flight ban. So that means flights coming from China are banned but flights from Germany are not banned. If I were a Chinese national and had an important business trip or vacation to Italy I didn't want to miss, I would just schedule a flight to Germany and then fly on a German plane into Italy. If you can find where Italy banned individuals, Chinese or not, that came China like Trump did, please show me.
How mean!
I recently could have filed for workman’s comp due to recent injuries on the job but didn’t ask for a thin dime. I have no reason or intent to take trump federal funds if they become available. I have plenty to survive even if business goes down the crapper with my dwindling stockpile of TP. If things were to be so bad as to force me into insolvency the nation would be in extreme distress and federal dollars wouldn’t matter much anyway. If need be I’ll just buy TP from Billyb or Trenchcoat at their bloated capitalist pricing.
Fathertime!
Aylward said he had “phenomenal confidence in the ability of the U.S. to get this under control,” noting how many epidemiologists in China — which has succeeded in minimizing new cases — had trained in the United States.
“They know how to do this stuff," he said of the U.S. experts. “And they've trained thousands of people across the U.S. to get organized. You mobilize that army, and you beat this most recent of enemies.”
Naturally, I am aware ppl circumvented Italy's ban...as will those who can fly via non Schengen nations...
But you were bragging that Italy took quick action. They took quick action
Democrat Dark Money Groups To Spend Millions Politicizing Wuhan Flu
That will be a new low. We should not expect less from such a miserable lot of people.If anything, it is the republicans that sound utterly miserable.
To set this up, the media must first scare the people. And they are trying! Did you hear the reporter today ask Trump if he was "scared." Trump jumped all over his ass.
That will be a new low. We should not expect less from such a miserable lot of people.
To set this up, the media must first scare the people. And they are trying! Did you hear the reporter today ask Trump if he was "scared." Trump jumped all over his ass.
I am beginning to think reporters are the most stupid idiots in our society.
Moving on, the latest bill that was passed should’ve included premium pay for all the medical personnel currently doing battle with this virus. Not only because of the constant hazard, long hours but also the fact they are also putting their own family in harms way every time they come home if they haven’t made personnel to separate themselves during this crisis.
We’ve tried to give our VA great leeway lately and methinks these folks are on the same battle fronts as our soldiers.
A good question I could ask my golfing friend Doc with the VA ER. I haven't seen him in a month.
Take care.... I need to have someone to fight over a bone with ....
I welcome a scientific challenge. Spirited political debate and the ramblings by autistic members are not helpful.
Ah, yes ... 'Scientific' like your President's 'hunches' and drug recommendations ? ...
MORE GOOD NEWS IN THE HEALTH INDUSTRY
.........
Therapeutic Drugs - FDA yesterday gave two anti-malaria drugs emergency approval to treat COVID-19 . This possibility was discussed at RWD earlier. The approval allows 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate and 1 million doses of chloroquine phosphate to be donated to the Strategic National Stockpile. The doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate were donated by Sandoz, while the chloroquine phosphate was developed by Bayer Pharmaceuticals.
The products will be "distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible," HHS said.
...
California, which has more than 4,600 cases, is a microcosm for how inconsistent the distribution of information has been during the pandemic. Los Angeles County provides a rough age distribution of patients and breaks down the cases into more than 140 cities and communities. On Friday, for example, the county reported 21 cases in Beverly Hills, 28 in the city of Santa Monica and 49 in the neighborhood of Melrose.
Across the United States there is even less consistency. New York is listing cases by age bracket, gender and borough despite calls for more localized reporting. Connecticut lists data by town. Florida provides its residents with a wealth of data on the pandemic. The state’s Department of Health has a detailed dashboard and reports showing the spread of the virus — rich with data on the cities affected, the number of people tested, the age brackets of patients, whether they are Florida residents, and the number of cases in nursing homes.
Health departments in the Bay Area make the case that releasing more granular data could heighten discrimination against certain communities where there might be clusters. The first cases in the Bay Area were among ethnic Chinese residents returning from trips to China.
“Pandemics increase paranoia and stigma,” said Dr. Rohan Radhakrishna, the deputy health officer of Contra Costa County, across the Bay from San Francisco, which provides only the total number of cases in the county on its website. “We must be extra cautious in protecting individuals and the community.”
In Santa Clara, health officials say they cannot disclose how many cases are found in each city because of the nation’s strict medical privacy law, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, or HIPAA, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996....
GQ,
This one help?
http://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/
Can also use http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html and drill down using the Admin2 tab.
Can also use http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html and drill down using the Admin2 tab.
Yes, the Florida site is pretty nice. http://fdoh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/74c7375b03894e68920c2d0131eef1e6
Trump and Co briefing happening right now. Over a million tests completed which is more than any nation has done. Over 100,000 tests happening each day now which is more daily testing than any other nation is doing.
Trump said as manufacturing of ventilators outpace our needs, we will send ventilators to Italy, France, Spain and other countries. Trump also said he will send other supplies to Italy.
NO WAY!!!
Trump is terrible and wants everyone to die!!
Especially the poor and minorities!!
I am sure useful supplies will be appreciated but hope a drop in demand over the next 10 days or so won't necessitate more ventilators.
I am sure useful supplies will be appreciated but hope a drop in demand over the next 10 days or so won't necessitate more ventilators.
NO WAY!!!What can be said is that Trump doesn't want everybody to vote!
Trump is terrible and wants everyone to die!!
Especially the poor and minorities!!
Don't know about the rest of the country, but the weather in So Cal is beautiful today. 75 deg F. It's days like this during the shutdown that I can take advantage of it and get some long overdue projects done. The streets are mostly empty and even in the neighborhood there are very few people out walking which is unusual. Seems like most people in the area are respecting the quarantine in place orders.Today I thought there were less people out and about. Another guy I spoke with today said he thought there was more. The freeway was smooth sailing not much different than last week. I had two hot younger ladies come into my shop drinking Budweiser beer while driving on the road, and ready to 'party it up' with me if I had any interest. That's what I get for not wearing my stupid mask today.
We will overcome this epidemic.
Hopefully Italy and the rest of Europe's curve dramatically decreases soon to the point you won't need help. ...
What can be said is that Trump doesn't want everybody to vote!
Trump says Democrats' push for expanded voting threatens Republicans
....Trump said that Democrat-proposed voting reforms to the $2.2 trillion rescue package passed last week by Congress — which were largely cut from the deal — would have led to “levels of voting, that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again.”
Democrats have pushed to mandate that states make plans to expand early voting and mail-in balloting for the fall election, in the event that the coronavirus pandemic makes in-person voting unsafe.....
http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html (http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html)
Fathertime!
Do me a freaking favor and post your silly political BS ..
Why do you feel so compelled to trot your stupid anti-US thoughts everywhere? Do you not get enough attention at home?
What am I missing here? Even if you project comparable number of months for COVID-19, it would still fall short to the Influenza's toll in comparison.
What can be said is that Trump doesn't want illegals, dead people
or people to vote more than once!
Fathertime!
GQ,
Is a good question. The answer is pretty simple though - the unknown. We don't know much about this virus at all vs decades of experience with influenza for which we have vaccines (albeit not perfect) and meds that help. We also know it is seasonal. Our healthcare systems are set up to handle the aftermath of the flu. We obviously do not have the capacities to handle this new virus.
Also, note that most of the population does not get it and signs are (HK) that it may easily come back for more, and more, and more. We don't know if it will be a seasonal thing. We don't really know yet how long immunity lasts. Although the virus seems pretty stable, we don't know if it might morph, making future vaccines useless or if it can become even more dangerous.
Left to run on its own, it could easily slam dunk influenza all year long.
COVID-19 US STATISTICS (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
2018-2019 US INFLUENZA STATISTICS (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html)
What am I missing here? Even if you project comparable number of months for COVID-19, it would still fall short to the Influenza's toll in comparison.
It's easy GQ. Everybody in the world experienced influenza multiple times in their lives. Only 780,000 confirmed people experience COVID-19 and out of a world population that's 1 out of every 10,000 people or .0001% of the population of the world. While 100% of the people in the world experiences influenza, it doesn't fill up our hospitals but .0001% experiencing COVID-19 will start to overwhelm hospitals. Multiply the problems you see now by 10,000 by giving everybody a taste of COVID-19, it's easy to see what will happen.
It's easy GQ. Everybody in the world experienced influenza multiple times in their lives. Only 780,000 confirmed people experience COVID-19 and out of a world population that's 1 out of every 10,000 people or .0001% of the population of the world. While 100% of the people in the world experiences influenza, it doesn't fill up our hospitals but .0001% experiencing COVID-19 will start to overwhelm hospitals. Multiply the problems you see now by 10,000 by giving everybody a taste of COVID-19, it's easy to see what will happen.
anything COVID-19 causes today will simply be 'an additional' burden to current hospitalization demand.
Dude!Dude! You can't handle it then don't read it. I was responding to another political statement. Just because you have a bias, doesn't give you authority to selectively call out political statements from one side and not the other and think it will carry any weight with me.
Do me a freaking favor and post your silly political BS in quasi-Brexit II/msmob trenchcoat dialogue thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d4e5e036b55873ed21393db0511d598e&topic=24217.msg530917;topicseen#new) please..
Or if you feel lacking and out of place for ruining that thread, then post your pro-China BS in this thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21530.msg530899#new).
If all else fails, learn f@#king mandarin, and start freely posting your thoughts in some CCP chat sites, man.
Why do you feel so compelled to trot your stupid anti-US thoughts everywhere? Do you not get enough attention at home?
I fixed that for you
Dude! You can't handle it then don't read it. I was responding to another political statement. Just because you have a bias, doesn't give you authority to selectively call out political statements from one side and not the other and think it will carry any weight with me.
Clearly you don't get enough attention, so I'll be delighted to continue to give you plenty to comment angrily about. :D
Fathertime!
Here you go!Sorry you are stuck with me here in the states. You would like to stifle effective dissent . It is easy to stifle idiotic dissent, but the recent objection I made regarding direct comments by Trump not wanting people to vote is too egregious to argue on that topic so let the distraction begin.
http://www.century21global.com/for-sale-residential/China/Wuhan
Manufacturers work every day to make driving in cars safer and law enforcement always increases efforts to remove unsafe drivers from our roads. In other words we are for a good part 'in control' and have ways to make driving safer.
Doing nothing (as in staying home) - which is what most of us are doing now is a very unusual 'cure' we are not used to.
As for the media, it's the biggest story in a long time.
I had just finished listening to California's Governor Newsom. I am encouraged that at least for the time being the nation's governors, at least most of them, are donning *American* instead of (R)/(D)/(I).
How big was the Spanish Flu news story in 1918-1919? Killed 40-50 million around the globe. No TV then, little mitigation.The largest of them all - God Forbid - the Bubonic Plague (14thC). Estimated to have killed 30 - 50% of Europe's population.
From September through November of 1918, the death rate from the Spanish flu skyrocketed. In the United States alone, 195,000 Americans died from the Spanish flu in just the month of October (http://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-deaths-october-1918). And unlike a normal seasonal flu, which mostly claims victims among the very young and very old, the second wave of the Spanish flu exhibited what’s called a “W curve”—high numbers of deaths among the young and old, but also a huge spike in the middle composed of otherwise healthy 25- to 35-year-olds in the prime of their life.
As for the media, it's the biggest story in a long time.
How big was the Spanish Flu news story in 1918-1919? Killed 40-50 million around the globe. No TV then, little mitigation.
The largest of them all - God Forbid - the Bubonic Plague (14thC). Estimated to have killed 30 - 50% of Europe's population.
But Dr. Fauci is on the Trump bandwagon of giving people hope.
Giving 'hope' wasn't about telling folks there'd be nothing to worry about ...
As of right now, I've been fairly disappointed in how our state fares regarding giving up-to-date information to its residents. ....The one I liked so far is Sonoma County. Here's their Coronavirus reporting website: Sonoma County (http://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=21a1653b79ba42039ff22bcb85fa5b19)
You are still dwelling on politics?!?!
For miserable old men like you, the "half-full glass" approach will not work. Miserable old men die alone, in their own piss and shit.
Now I realize the moderator protects this particular poster
but can't we at least have a thread without 'him' pestering every thread with his stupid political stupidity? It is an absurdity with the fact this idiot is NOT even a citizen, or a resident of the US, including not even being IN the country.
Why is this crap allowed to happen for this idiot? Everyone, please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Let him wallow in his own misery...alone. *Happy* people just don't do this sh!t.
Interesting how often a few of the more miserable old men of the board either wish death upon someone or hint at it in graphic terms. Willing to say this all over a political disagreement. interesting, and telling
For miserable old men like you, the "half-full glass" approach will not work. Miserable old men die alone, in their own piss and shit.
Interesting how often a few of the more miserable old men of the board either wish death upon someone or hint at it in graphic terms. Willing to say this all over a political disagreement. interesting, and telling
Fathertime!
I stated my position on this several days ago also (without proof or statistics) that I did not believe at all the 3,000 number being reported by China.
Heard just a brief snippet on national news last night that USA intelligence is saying that China actually had > 25,000 deaths in Wuhan.
And several days earlier, wife told of reading that people keeping track of burials there also noting how they were much higher than the 3,000 or so reported by officials.
I stated my position on this several days ago also (without proof or statistics) that I did not believe at all the 3,000 number being reported by China.
How will it 'help' if China reported whatever death count they actually have in China?
You think Billy? Double the count to 6,000+. Triple it to 9,000+...I highly doubt it would've changed the attitude of anyone anywhere.
It is estimated that China's numbers should be multiplied by 40. I was important for China to warn governments of the danger which in turn can save lives. China could've told the truth with a massive amount of infections and deaths and told governments this disease is highly infectious and to begin mass production of PPE, ventilators, and build hospitals. By warning other governments, those governments could begin preparing what they need to save lives. Now all governments are behind in making test kits and other supplies.
It is estimated that China's numbers should be multiplied by 40. I was important for China to warn governments of the danger which in turn can save lives. China could've told the truth with a massive amount of infections and deaths and told governments this disease is highly infectious and to begin mass production of PPE, ventilators, and build hospitals. By warning other governments, those governments could begin preparing what they need to save lives. Now all governments are behind in making test kits and other supplies.
Strange to me how fast Apple can manufacture billions of iPhone in less than a year's time, but we can't manufacture 400 million test kits in 4 months.
I learned 30-40 years ago that Chinese could simply not be trusted and knew nothing about honor, keeping their word, etc.
There were reports the virus was already infecting people as early as November, even in Italy.
There is no reason for undue anxiety—the general risk remains low in NY. We are diligently managing this situation &will provide info as it becomes available.
The risk of U.S. residents becoming infected by the coronavirus that's devastating China remains low right now, public health officials said Monday, even as there's growing pressure to ramp up U.S. and international pandemic preparedness.
Apple had years of development, testing and time to gear up plants to create their phones. The test kits for COVID-19 was developed and produced in less than a month. No test kit is 100% accurate so we have a ways to go before getting things perfected.
I remember reading people from other nations saying their flu season last year seemed exceptionally high and make a claim it could've been coronavirus. I seriously doubt any of it's true. If coronavirus hit any nation in November, doctors would've sounded the alarm like the Chinese doctors did and soon after hospitals would be overwhelmed. Whatever happened in Italy in November wasn't coronavirus.
I posted an Italian doctor's admission he was receiving reports from GPs in Lombardy region that numerous unexplained severe cases of pneumonia was happening even as far back as November.
The Captain did the right thing and will be treated in the same way as the Chinese 'whistle-blower' Doctor ...
The Captain did the right thing about caring for his sailors
As long as we're on humour, someone sent me this the other day. Some may not like it but we should be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes.
I remember chuckling at some Obama potshot memes as well, so here it is:
End of
[Trump cartoon]
The Captain did the right thing about caring for his sailors but failed to the right thing when communicating through his superiors. The captain either didn't use secure channels to communicate with his superiors or let his letter to the Pentagon leak out. He was negligent and deserved to be relieved of his command of the ship. The ship needs a leader that cares about the sailors and knows how to behave properly.
Italy suspects Russia planting spies among the doctors Russia sent over?
http://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-russia-spar-over-alleged-coronavirus-spies-165449595.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/army-warned-in-early-february-that-coronavirus-could-kill-150000-americans?ref=author
Maybe Capt. Crozier got a similar briefing and saw no action.
Trump took action in January. Army was a little behind.
And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.
Was the Army really behind?
D.J. Trump, February 26 2020
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-conference/
Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time. The president and NSC were all well aware.
First lockdowns in Italy 21 Feb. All schools closed 4 March and the national lockdown began 9 March.
You keep bringing up Trump 'doing something' with incoming foreigners on flights as if this one act saved America... Do you really feel that way today?
Why would the US panic from the truth?
No panic here, no panic in Germany, where is there panic elsewhere? Are we Americans panicky?
I WAS going to post this, but waited for a 'Murican ..EXCELLENT point.
The Captain did the right thing and will be treated in the same way as the Chinese 'whistle-blower' Doctor ...
You complain when you didn't get the truth but if Trump gave the truth adding to deaths and suffering, you'd complain again. Trump can't win.
Can you show me some European articles where you got the truth early February claiming hundreds of thousands of people in Europe will die? You didn't get the truth and that is why Europeans didn't panic. But leaders over there don't get blamed like Trump because you like their politics.
Challenge accepted:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/924664
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/11/coronavirus-expert-warns-infection-could-reach-60-of-worlds-population[/url]
You failed the challenge. None of the articles say hundreds of thousands of UK citizens will die. One article said just over 1000 Chinese died. That's nothing for a country of 1.4 billion. There was once a UK government document leaked that said 500,000 UK citizens could die but that was leaked and not announced by your government because they don't want to create panic.
D.J. Trump, February 26 2020...............
Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time. The president and NSC were all well aware.
Why are YOU so forgiving of his incompetence, Gator ?
Why do you continue to inject your political partisanship?
Trump's message was hope, not fear. It was echoed by mainstream media. Why don't you also criticize the concurrent remarks from New York's mayor and governor, who had the authority to issue and enforce a"stay at home" order earlier than they did.
You have complimented Dr. Fauci. Why not mention his January 21 interview that coronavirus is not a major threat, nothing for US citizens to be worried about now.
This crisis is still unfolding. Time for all us to work together and do our part.
The news from Italy is suggesting the apex of new cases has passed. Splendid!
Science learns and adapts, politics does not learn nor adapt well. I can imagine Dr Fauci had to deliberate hard to go against the political grain of his boss. By sticking to the facts he gained the respect that bridges politics.
why are so many people in the UK still more frustrated by weather being fine this weekend ..as they can't go out ..despite all they know ( now ) about this virus ..?
You seem so butt-hurt by your 'leader's' volte face that you need to try to suggest 'panic', elsewhere.
I am staying in a beautiful village...the house has a private garden and all is calm...
We are not experiencing the hardship of families with health workers and will not suffer from lack of funds.
There you go again talking only about Trump when leaders all around you done a worse job. You probably feel everybody to the left of Trump in Europe and in America had done a better job on handling the virus but you can't explain how.
It's a good thing being separated from your wife for the last 2+ months isn't creating a hardship for you. Is that what you want us to believe? Hope it isn't true.
Was the Army really behind?
D.J. Trump, February 26 2020
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-conference/
Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time. The president and NSC were all well aware.
First lockdowns in Italy 21 Feb. All schools closed 4 March and the national lockdown began 9 March.
You keep bringing up Trump 'doing something' with incoming foreigners on flights as if this one act saved America... Do you really feel that way today?
Don't you ever get tired of fostering numbnuts' narratives, BC?
Should I subscribe to ad ignorantiam logical fallacies instead of fact?
Are we not the United States?
I can imagine Dr Fauci had to deliberate hard to go against the political grain of his boss. By sticking to the facts he gained the respect that bridges politics.
All this is not politics Gator, it based on fact. If I got anything wrong factually, please do let me know.
I heard Dr Birx the other day discussing models and kinda leaning on the Italian model as one that could be applicable for the US.
I hope it is at this point, but believe such may be overly optimistic as containment measures were very different. It wasn't that long ago that here at RWD the number of infections, deaths and doctors having to split ventilators, apply triage protocols in Italy was somehow abhorrent and held up as a critique of 'socialized' systems. Now we are beginning to feel and do the exact same things and view the Italian experience as a best-case scenario for the US.
1. You are selective with the facts you choose to present. For 12 years I have watched you do the same, backing 100% of everything Obama did and 0% of what Trump has done.
2. Dwelling on politics degrades this thread, which I had hoped would center around medical science, public health developments, and national policies. If you want to dwell on Trump's shortcomings (and he has many to choose from), I suggest the Trump Doctrine thread or maybe new threads such as "How COVID-19 will Affect the 2020 Election," or something about which I know little, "Will the Pandemic Change Global Affairs."
3. There will be time to count the bodies and judge the role and response of the US government, the individual states, the local communities, the medical community, and the public. It will be more factual and comprehensive than your preliminary snipes, that frankly seem petty given the severity of the crises. Maybe a critical analysis will show that the NYC metro area should have implemented a Wuhan lockdown. Maybe it will show that ventilators prolonged the inevitable more than saving lives. Maybe a significant percentage of those who died were nearing the end.
We are a Federalism. While Democrats may want a huge, unitary state that decides everything, we are not there .......yet.
You don't know exactly what was happening behind the scenes, maybe we should await an after-action report. Schiff is now writing a bill for such.
You like Dr. Fauci because he elaborated upon a policy or two that differed from what you thought Trump said. Dr. Fauci is a valuable member of the task force, yet I hope you are not suggesting he should direct everything the nation does to fight COVID-1.
I don't argue with your facts such as charts, or clearly stated policies of nations around the globe. They are helpful.
I don't know the data used in the IHME models. One report says it is New York data. I would assume that the modelers used representative data from all sources.
The truth normally carries itself and it is very difficult to respond with ease on the basis of doubtful data.
I do recall criticizing Obama...
Yes, but when it comes down to stay at home orders at the state level, all Republican eyes are on Trump to set the tone.
Indeed, I misspoke. I should have used the term 'Italian data' instead of 'model'. It just startled me that she mentions Italy a lot in a comparative way. Listening to her I think 'hmm... what's missing there'. A sense that a bit of candour is lacking, or use of phrases that just don't say it all.
If Sweden, which has not locked down its economy and society, emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the true extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses
TICKING TIME BOMBS?
In the first place, we believe there is not so much need for testing in Japan as in other countries. Japan is not experiencing an explosion of infection numbers with severe symptoms as seen in countries like Italy and South Korea.
Maybe the Japanese knows what they're doing. Who knows.
Here's a 2018 article which may explain why the virus can't get a foothold in Japan.
http://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/
Japan appears to be EXACTLY on the same curve as Spain / Italy, historically.
No they're not. You're making stuff up..... again. With everybody wearing masks in Japan, it's hard for the virus to infect others as easily as what happened in Spain and Italy.
My son-in-law and CNN are both 'making it' up ..
Here's a 2018 article which may explain why the virus can't get a foothold in Japan.
http://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/
Over the past week, Japan has scrambled to avert an explosive surge in infections. While the current tally stands at around 2,300 cases, Japan — a country of over 127 million people — has tested only about 30,000 residents. Neighboring South Korea, with a population of about 51 million, carried out 394,000 tests.
While Japanese doctors have carried out more than 32,000 tests, only 16,484 people have actually been tested, given that many are often tested multiple times.
#
Ooops
My son-in-law and CNN are both 'making it' up ..
BillyB's 'fake news' is ( so often) fact ..
GQB
Do you have family in Japan ? ... Thought not .. IF you did you'd appreciate we compare notes re wearing of masks, govt policy, etc.,
I've seen the links and the reference points. They were up for a day, then taken down. In addition, most of the medical staff who worked on the Corona Virus as the Woohan central hospital are now missing.
Billy-
Congrats over there up in WA! Trump just informed that your governor decided to send back, send back!! 400 ventilators! Great news! That's awesome considering WA was the epicenter on the virus in the beginning.
1.670 million tested in the US! Obviously the reason why the high count of confirmed cases. Not bad if you consider the CDC fiasco in the beginning.
Were the postings in English or Chinese ?
What are 'reference points' ?
If that is what they say, then they are making it up. The culture in Japan is totally different than in Italy and Spain. No nation can stop the spread of the virus but masks significantly slow down the spread so when they say cases in Japan are going to explode like they did in Italy and Spain, they are wrong.
Japan has done very little testing. They tell people who are sick to stay home and monitor what goes on in the hospital. There's not enough activity by the virus to shut down their economy or spend tons of money to test everybody.
When do you think nations should shut down the economy? When the first case shows up? Like Trump said, the cure can be worse than the problem. Can't shut it down too early but can't wait too long either like NY, Spain and Italy done.
http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
[The ]Faeroe Islands have done the best job testing their population since 1 out of every 10 of their citizens have been tested. No other nation comes close to testing 10% of their population.
Details are beginning to emerge - at great cost to those getting the information out - that China was indeed experimenting with the Corona Virus at the Woohan Institute of Virology.At this point it speculation but you have your mind made up clearly. I'm sure it is just a coincidence that you are trying to drum up support to destroy china's rising economy, same as you were before the virus. If you can't compete with them, destroy them by any means necessary, that is how it is done here in the USA!
According to one of the clandestine posts, the Chinese are well aware of who their Typhoid Mary case is and how he caught the disease and spread it through the 'live food' markets.
If, indeed, China is covering this up (who makes up figures for cell phone termination and numbers of urns unless they are somewhat based in reality?) there is going to be hell to pay.
If this virus originated and escaped from that place, every nation in the country will condemn China. People will be furious. To the point of choosing not to buy Chinese products. Last month China reported a 17% drop in their economy (GDP). If the people of the world find out that China has been covering this up (which they have) then a 50% reduction is not too hard to fathom.
You have no special knowledge or expertise of Japan or of Japanese people.
Many folk in Japan wore masks ..
The Florida Dept of Health COVID-19 Dashboard, now report number of cases by postal zip code.
If more than 5 cases, the exact number of cases is listed. Zero cases is also shown. If 1-5, the number of cases is reported as 1- 5 to protect individual rights.
Japan is right next to China and they haven't declared a state of emergency yet. Even if they do, they are 45 days behind Western nations which means they have a very slow spread compared to others. Figure it out.
TICKING TIME BOMBS?
Why are less developed nations reporting very low number of cases? I assume it is because they can not afford the expense of extensive testing. Fewer tests will produce fewer cases. Consider these three nations in the subcontinent.
Population Number of Cases
Pakistan 200 million 1,865
Bangladesh 160 million 51
India 1,300 million 1,251
They have densely populated areas where social co-mingling is as problematic as in NYC, if not worse. If these numbers are due to the lack of testing, I contend they are ticking time bombs with number of deaths more catastrophic than in NYC, giving rise to the doomsday envisioned by Krimster.
Consider India. India a few days ago implemented a stringent lockdown. It inadvertently caused 45 million migrant workers to flee the large cities and return to their villages, possibly accelerating the areal spread. Such has implications for starvation.
The Bacillus Calmette-Guérin (BCG) vaccine to prevent tuberculosis, which has been given to Indian children since 1949, and which around 97% of the 26 million Indian children born every year received last year, appears to offer protection against coronavirus disease (Covid-19), according to US researchers who analysed the wide variation in the intensity of the disease in different countries. It also helps lower cases of Covid-19 in a country, the researchers found.
GQ,
Was watching this on German news the other day. Max Plank Institute who developed the vaccine also started trials at hospitals in several hospitals in Germany, and it's being replicated in several countries.
The huge advantage is that some of the trials, i.e. safety trials that test only whether or not the vaccine causes harm, can be skipped as they have already been done. This saves a few months time, maybe more.
I also hope it works.
I went in heavy today on Chemical Financial. ... Take it apart.
That is good news. I don't like my governor's politics but it's great he's not sitting on them ventilators if we're not needing them and letting go to other parts of America that could use them. Teamwork and cooperation is what we need to save lives and combat the virus, not politics.
MORE NEWS ABOUT HCQ FROM THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY
Rheumatologists have a long history of prescribing HCQ to lupus patients. They state the drug is safe at the dosages they use.
Let's take this another step. 300,000 people in the US have lupus and likely take HCQ on a regular basis. Have they been infected by COVID-19?
A "data cruncher" analyzed the insurance data for 14,000 lupus patients and discovered not one has COVID-19.
Yes, very preliminary, and certainly ANECDOTAL. Yet it calls for a more comprehensive analysis of national insurance records.
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?
All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?
Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?
I predict we we will have better therapeutics, maybe even better than HCQ.
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?
All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?
Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?
GOOD NEWS
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?
All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?
Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?
As posted before, I would be very careful with building expectations at this point. A new spike can be just around the corner. Takes more than a couple days to define a trend.. a lot more.
The only logical way forward so far that I see is to start testing on a national scale to identify and isolate remaining active cases along with antibody testing to find those that can work more freely. Folks can adjust their measures depending on how they test.
Borders must become very stringent. In the case of the US, states like California that first implemented containment and lockdown measures will have to protect their state lines to prevent reinfection just as a country would.
Otherwise, we'll be chasing our tail forever. Have to remember until we know otherwise the majority of the population is still susceptible to this bug.
IMHO testing on a massive scale is warranted before restrictions are relaxed too far.
Thorny issue for Americans and our sense of individual freedoms. I recall you not long ago opposing the restrictions about stopping New Yorkers. Maybe travelers should have their body temperature measured at the border? Or allowed to enter only if having a recent negative test.
Need a transitional plan rather than await for an "all clear" announcement. Waiting until we have a vaccine or proven prophylactic is too long.
Restrictions can be eased in step with expanded testing. How? Need people much smarter than me to make such plans.
The only logical way forward so far that I see is to start testing on a national scale to identify and isolate remaining active cases along with antibody testing to find those that can work more freely.
IMHO testing on a massive scale is warranted before restrictions are relaxed too far.
I don't understand this idea of trying to test everyone.
All a test indicates (ignoring false negatives and false positives) is the situation at that point in time.
The next day, a person who tested negatively could then acquire the virus.
This also applies to all those who have already been tested.
IIRC I felt it would not be feasible as it was already too late for such. Think was the first post with the radar picture of aeroplanes flying around.
I don't understand this idea of trying to test everyone.
All a test indicates (ignoring false negatives and false positives) is the situation at that point in time.
The next day, a person who tested negatively could then acquire the virus.
This also applies to all those who have already been tested.
I don't know if any exit strategy will be acceptable in the WH as all will take time and much effort to do it right. 'Cut 'em loose' is dangerous IMHO as evidenced by new flareups in other countries.
This should interest you. ABC News analyzed 20 million international flight records for the critical 4-month period of December - March.
Flights from China: "3,200 flights flew from China to the U.S., including more than 1,000 flights ....to Los Angeles and nearly 500 each landed in San Francisco and New York ....those flights translated to more than 761,000 Chinese nationals entering the U.S.... Among the flights were 50 direct from Wuhan.... Twenty-seven of those flights went to San Francisco and 23 to New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport. The last flights from Wuhan came in early February...." because of the Trump travel ban.
Flights from Italy and Spain: "More than 1,400 direct flights from Italy landed in U.S. cities from December to March, including more than 500 in February and March....Another 2,255 flights from Spain landed in U.S. cities....Nearly 100 of the Italy-to-Miami flights happened over six weeks in February and early March before the U.S. imposed restrictions. .....Also in March, more than 400 flights left Spain for 12 American cities. Close to half of those flights landed at two New York City region airports: JFK and Newark Liberty. ...The flights directly from China, Italy and Spain reached at least 15 states.
Also, "Of the Customs and Border Protection personnel that tested positive, 52, were from New York ports of entry, 20 were from Miami and Fort Lauderdale airports and facilities, 10 from Los Angeles work sites and 10 from New Jersey."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/disaster-motion-flights-coronavirus-ravaged-countries-landed-us/story?id=70025470
Have been thinking about GQ's "What Next" question.
It seems to me that one of the most important priorities is to reopen our industry and businesses. So what are the options to do this with minimal impact on the virus spreading and reappearing?
The lockdowns, shelter in place, and social distancing appears to have worked to a large extent but isn't a practical solution to getting our country back to work. So what tools do we have that are available now or in the near future that can be used to allow the work force to resume getting back to work?
Since there is no vaccine to prevent the population from contracting the virus, we must rely on other methods to prevent the transmission of the virus. The experts have indicated that the transmission mechanism best understood is from physical contact and via inhaling the vapors from infected individuals (coughing, etc)…
It would seem to me that businesses could implement measures that would greatly minimize the transmission of the virus in the workplace.
1. Require all employees to wear masks to minimize the risk of spreading the virus from someone infected to other workers.
2. Install the disinfectant hand wash dispensers in all bathrooms lunchrooms, hallways, etc. Our company had already done this prior to the virus outbreak. Just good planning by someone in our company I guess.
3. For businesses that deal with the public, install the disinfectant wipe dispensers such as our grocery stores have already done.
4. Any employee that shows signs of virus symptoms should be sent home and not return until tested. Our company already took similar actions by sending an employee home whos wife had just returned from Spain.
In addition, until a vaccine is available I think the public wearing masks in public would probably also minimize the spread of the virus. I would not have to last forever, just until the epidemic is under control and a vaccine is readily available.
What are your thoughts or other solutions?
ABC News: US intelligence warned of China's spreading contagion in November
US intelligence officials were warning as far back as late November that the novel coronavirus was spreading through China's Wuhan region and posing a threat to its people and daily life, according to ABC News.
The US military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI) compiled a November intelligence report in which "analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources of the NCMI's report told ABC News.
How does this not put to rest that the US was unguarded against a misinformation campaign in China?
It seems to me that all the extra hand washing eventually will lead to only the super resistant and strongest virus remaining and growing.
2. Install the disinfectant hand wash dispensers in all bathrooms lunchrooms, hallways, etc. Our company had already done this prior to the virus outbreak. Just good planning by someone in our company I guess.
America spies on China and probably intercepted some phone calls pertaining to China's effort to fight an epidemic in Wuhan. As I mentioned before, my uncle was in a tour group touring China in November. They were supposed to stop in Wuhan in the middle of November but their train was stopped by the Chinese military and told to go around the city.Bottom line is the info was in Trump's hands in late November. The virus spread here well after that. Personally I don't think much short of a complete lock down would have prevented it. I continue to believe that Trump has decided to prioritize business over saving everybody. That may just be the lessor of the two evils from his view.
The virus probably came about earlier than China said it did. It's apparent China has deceived the world from the beginning.
Trump gets intel briefings everyday pertaining to all the bad things and threats around the world. He can't act on every one of them and he can't save everybody's life. Trump and past presidents have not acted on most of what they are told.
We don't know if Trump acted in November or not to the intel finding. Trump's administration isn't going to go to war over this and if you call China they would probably deny it. At the most, Trump's administration would call WHO and ask them to look into it and when WHO had evidence a coronavirus existed, they put out info it wasn't human to human transferable and there was nothing to worry about all the way up to Jan 20. Trump acted shortly after that to the protests of the Democrats who some also gets the same intel briefings as Trump.
we all can think about the basics of the mess we put ourselves into.
Using Occam's Razor to slice the pie:
First, we will see a higher frequency of pandemics as the world population and density grows. Natural and unnatural forces are further restricting the space in which we live, and increasing sources and breeding grounds for new viral outbreaks.
Second, our ability to travel quickly, easily and cheaply makes for a fantastic viral distribution network. Just a few decades or so ago we would likely not have experienced such a fast worldwide spread of a virus that does not respect borders.
Third, we were not adequately prepared for a pandemic event whether 'we' be a city, county, state, country or world.
Fourth, we are learning the hard way that Science and Politics do not mix well with resulting Economic harm.
Fifth, we are not able to leverage the full potential of our capabilities fighting and recovering from a pandemic.
Sixth, we cannot deal with or overcome a pandemic event alone. It must be a worldwide effort.
What did I miss?
WE? You mean China? Whether or not it came from a laboratory or eating strange animals without thoroughly cooking them, it's China that got us in this mess. Nothing what you say below is a factor.
You missed Climate Change. Yes, I read that from the media climate saying change is helping viruses flourish. Funny thing is most experts agree hot temperatures is something viruses don't like. I hope Nancy Pelosi puts in 500 billion into the next relief bill to combating climate change. Not.
...
What did I miss?
We all would like to celebrate moments of idealism, but these few feel-good moments are fleeting and easily dispensed. When all is said and done, self-preservation kicks in, and trust me - it'll prevail. Last man standing.
It seems to me that all the extra hand washing eventually will lead to only the super resistant and strongest virus remaining and growing.
Fathertime!
You missed Climate Change. Yes, I read that from the media climate saying change is helping viruses flourish. Funny thing is most experts agree hot temperatures is something viruses don't like. I hope Nancy Pelosi puts in 500 billion into the next relief bill to combating climate change. Not.
If that is the case, we have learned little, maybe nothing worthwhile.
Now the results are showing that Sweden's death rate from Corona is nearly twice that of Denmark's.
The China blame thread is here http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24254.0
Apparently Sweden took exactly the tack that Boris was accused of above.
They had no lockdown, and even used the words survival and let our people contract Corona, develop antibodies, and create a heard resistance for the future.
I understand and totally agree with your points GQ.
But I remain hopeful that this globe-spanning event can turn a wee bit of 'me' into a tiny spark of 'we'.
I wonder what will happen when we start replacing body parts( organs).
I wonder what will happen when we start replacing body parts( organs).
ditto between Sweden and Norway. Compensating for population 2.5-3 times the deaths.
Brain, of course.
Haven't we been doing such regularly since the 60's?
:D
Death rate per capita is the only sensible way to measure.
Telling absolute numbers is meaningless.
Yes, I agree that where a country is on the curve is important for comparisons.
As I understood it, Sweden and Denmark are at or near same point on curve, and their similar population gives their death rate comparison a good amount of validity.
Stop trying to compare number of deaths. Only rate per capita is meaningful.
Like Italy, 25% of population is over 65, the coronavirus has killed older folks/underlying conditions at a significant rate.
Those individuals will have an underlying condition. But that underlying condition did not cause their acute death when it's related to a COVID infection. In fact, it's the opposite. Having an underlying condition and getting this virus we know is particularly damaging to those individuals.
Bottom line is the info was in Trump's hands in late November. The virus spread here well after that. Personally I don't think much short of a complete lock down would have prevented it. I continue to believe that Trump has decided to prioritize business over saving everybody. That may just be the lessor of the two evils from his view.
Fathertime!
China lock down another city. Says infections were imported from Russia so China closes Border with Russia. I don't think China will ever admit again infections increase domestically because they want everybody to believe they have it under control.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-closes-russia-border-puts-new-city-into-wuhan-style-lockdown/ar-BB12mi7f?ocid=spartanntp
You do know Russia closed border to China over a month ago??? What does it matter that China closes a border that is already closed??
Now is that really a 'story'
Russia closed the border with China in January. Closed doesn't mean entirely closed. Russia won't allow Chinese nationals to enter Russia but will let those who are in Russia return home.
So China closing border doesn't mean entirely closed either?? So why say it?
So in your mind, closed doesn't always mean closed.
Ask the media why they said it. Maybe they're simply repeating what China said leaving out some details?
In my mind, I know there's more detail to every story than what the media reports. They like to leave a lot of things/truth out of their stories, especially when it comes to Trump.
You as bad as the media, trying to sensationalize every minute story that comes out. Don't care about whether there is any truth or not , it's a story!!
So the stories that are not the truth are the ones you don't agree with? You're a talking head!! Many are here!!!
So the stories that are not the truth are the ones you don't agree with? You're a talking head!! Many are here!!!
Countries will normally let their own citizens back in if 'closed'.
Is Ivermectin the new HCQ? Australia seem to think so.
I can't be arsed to start a VPN to read ML's link
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact websupport@wwub.com or call 509-525-3301."
May I please ask folk to note that they are probably referring to HCQ not CQ..
The trial will look at different combinations of chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic azithromycin. Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have been used to treat malaria and some inflammatory conditions, but have not been proven as treatment for COVID-19.
I suppose a good deworming might make you feel better.
http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1122/ivermectin-oral/details
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229893
Second link is more on topic.
Unlike HCQ, which immobilizes the virus as the person immunity then destroys it..
'Indeed' ?
I'll mention this to our friend Anatoly in Pattaya.. He'll be glad to know.. given his April 5th Flight was cancelled, his wife had a an unscheduled hysterectomy and he's still in Thailand ..
.... In a U.S. study of patients in Seattle, only one of the seven patients older than 70 who were put on a ventilator survived; just 36% of those younger than 70 did. And in a study published by JAMA on Monday, physicians in Italy reported that nearly 90% of 1,300 critically ill patients with Covid-19 were intubated and put on a ventilator; only 11% received noninvasive ventilation. One-quarter died in the ICU; 58% were still in the ICU, and 16% had been discharged...
If it is about flights being cancelled, that is a commercial and not .gov matter.
The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled ...
??
The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled ...
Was talking to my son today. His MD friend in a large German city told him that the biggest problem he sees lies with obesity, even more so than pre-existing respiratory conditions. Not only do the lungs and heart have to work overtime to oxygenate a larger body, but that additional weight also impedes the lungs to expand to their potential.
??
The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled ...
You do mean international flights. Domestic flights still running.
I agree with mhr7, international flights stopped on 18th. For Russian nationals not sure if/when it stopped. Surely after March 27 date!! You need update your info Moby!!!
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2F20200326%2F1569163936.html
Is Russia denying entry to their own citizens that show up at a border checkpoint?
Trump yesterday even suggested maybe shipping some of them overseas.
None of any of the models that were presented even remotely came close to fruition. Even the most conservative of model was still grossly over-estimated.
Despite the 500,000 confirmed infection, with < 20,000 deaths, hard to believed it paralyzed our nation to a halt if you consider seasonal flu kills more of us on literally any given year (http://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html).
What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.
This may turn out to be the classic mother-of-all over-reaction.
America has managed the virus enough to slow infections
There was fake news for all to see :deadhorse:
It's official. Today President Trump ordered a “robust assistance package” to be sent to Italy.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/492339-trump-orders-robust-assistance-package-for-italy
If you think things are wildly out of control in America and Trump sends our medical supplies elsewhere, he will pay at the polls. Worry about your problems in the UK. You'll be getting an aid package from America soon. You can thank Trump later.
GQ,
What you have to calculate in is also that intensive care folks usually stay on respirators for a long time, 2,3 4 weeks. The daily rate of infection has not gone down except for typical weekend lulls as it seems labs may be taking weekends.
See the attached graphic. The US still has a long way to go. We also have another 3 weeks or so till the new infection numbers fall to a manageable figure. Fall in deaths and intensive care numbers is slow and will take even longer. As you can see, the virus is tenacious.
Was the acquisition of ventilators and such overkill? Never. They can be sent to other countries that may still need them or put back into storage for the inevitable next time.
Note scale is approx. x5 for the US numbers, steady at 30,000 infections daily. The red X is probably where we're at in the US in comparison, but the plateau may well be longer than ours here in Italy due to many factors.
The flat-top indicates that containment efforts are having an effect. The peak could have been much much higher.
Happy Easter!
Happy Easter,
At my house we will celebrate it twice
Same here.
Wife insisted on cleaning house and making me clean all my stuff (mostly mail items) off the dining room table.
I told her this wasn't even her Easter, but she still insisted.
I haven't missed a day of work, haven't shut down my shop for 30 seconds. I'm from Missouri the "Show me State". In addition, I guess I'm prepared to die if that is what it comes down to....although I'm practicing social distancing as best as I can. On the downside, my household is running low on TP so there is a chance I may have to raid Trenchcoat or Billyb's stockpiles.
What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.
This may turn out to be the classic mother-of-all over-reaction.
Despite the 500,000 confirmed infection, with < 20,000 deaths, hard to believed it paralyzed our nation to a halt if you consider seasonal flu kills more of us on literally any given year (http://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html).
What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.
The "White man" paid an enormous price in blood from past pandemics that circulated throughout Europe. The ones that survived passed on some strong survival genes. Indigenous populations from other regions may not see the same benefit from these genes and may be more susceptible to virus's like this.
Indigenous people everywhere may not fair well if the coronavirus comes their way. If I remember correctly, around 90% of Indians died from White man's diseases.
..and other 'idiots' will play golf and get excessive sun exposure despite knowing the sun can cause skin cancer. I'd say let the 'idiots' do what they enjoy without labeling them 'idiots'.
For example, some idiots voluntarily smoke tobacco even though tobacco is known to both initiate and promote cancer as well as impair heart health, the two largest causes of death.
So far. One day after your post, your < 20,000 is > 20,000.
I was going to raise this - THE most crassly stupid post I've read on here, tomorrow ..
When I read IDIOT's say, "see, the 'models of doom' were exaggerated" one HAS to wonder ... are they trolling or that THICK?
IMO the endemic level of COVID-19 will cause as many deaths on an annual basis as seasonal flu. Maybe more deaths, given that COVID is more contagious and the populations most vulnerable to flu and COVID are the same.
If COVID-19 is indeed an endemic disease that will not go away, it means that eventually all of us will become infected.
R-E-L-A-X. You exaggerate. Howler? No.
The curve is flattening,
So far. One day after your post, your < 20,000 is > 20,000.
During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%). Among patients aged 18–49 years, obesity was the most prevalent underlying condition, followed by chronic lung disease (primarily asthma) and diabetes mellitus. Among patients aged 50–64 years, obesity was most prevalent, followed by hypertension and diabetes mellitus; and among those aged ≥65 years, hypertension was most prevalent, followed by cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus. Among 33 females aged 15–49 years hospitalized with COVID-19, three (9.1%) were pregnant. Among 167 patients with available data, the median interval from symptom onset to admission was 7 days (interquartile range [IQR] = 3–9 days). The most common signs and symptoms at admission included cough (86.1%), fever or chills (85.0%), and shortness of breath (80.0%). Gastrointestinal symptoms were also common; 26.7% had diarrhea, and 24.4% had nausea or vomiting.
It's not over. Its over when we have a vaccine or an effective treatment method. Until then, we will have an endemic level of COVID-19 just as we have an endemic level of flu. IMO the endemic level of COVID-19 will cause as many deaths on an annual basis as seasonal flu. Maybe more deaths, given that COVID is more contagious and the populations most vulnerable to flu and COVID are the same.
If COVID-19 is indeed an endemic disease that will not go away, it means that eventually all of us will become infected.
You are correct. But there is more.
Its all about perceived risk rather than actual scientific risk. Perception of risk is dependent upon 1) history/experience (as you mentioned), 2) whether the encounter is voluntary or involuntary, 3) consequences, 4) the length of time from the encounter to consequences, and 5) public attention.
For example, some idiots voluntarily smoke tobacco even though tobacco is known to both initiate and promote cancer as well as impair heart health, the two largest causes of death.
Seasonal flu has been with us for eons. COVID-19 is brand new. With regard to flu we voluntarily go about our lives doing little more than taking a flu vaccine and avoiding obviously sick people. Is COVID-19 scientifically more virulent than flu in terms of transmissibility and fatality ratio? Somewhat, but I contend not to the degree perceived by the public, a perception exacerbated by the national attention given to it. And that is driving public policy.
Roseland Hospital phlebotomist: 30% of those tested have coronavirus antibody
“A lot of people have high antibodies, which means they had the coronavirus
but they don’t have it anymore and their bodies built the antibodies,”
http://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody
At present, it seems the more we know about the virus, the more it seems we've over-estimated its virulence judging from the failed models previously presented. It isn't to say this is not of a major concern, but as all the other virulent viruses of the past - this, too will come to pass in the same fashion. Just MHO.
My point is, current COVID death count may in fact be inflated
BillyB doesn't trust China's numbers ...
Who trusts Belarus' reports ?
http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/ (http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/)
10 APRIL 2020, 13:53
Cardiovascular disease named leading cause of death in Belarus in January-March
It MAY even be true .... for now ...
Lukashoudgo and his denial .. 'reports' that Doctors cannot say someone died of 'Korona' .. they 'die' of .... heart failure ...
When America had 6 cases and zero deaths, Trump cut off China. When we had 38 deaths, Trump cut off most of Europe. We are not dealing with the flu. We are dealing with the virus of the century that has a case fatality rate worse than the Spanish flu, the virus of century last century. Most of the models have been wrong simply because we've taken action or we have bad data. It is political suicide for leaders to report bad news so we are seeing a massive amount of underreporting of deaths. With bad data, it's hard to create a good model.
Data and models may not tell the full truth but what we do know is hospitals can handle births, flus, colds, other illnesses and physical injuries of their community. One COVID-19 outbreak overloads hospitals, destroys the medical community and ruins the economy.A few days ago Italy reported 80 doctors dead, 20 nurses dead, and 12,000 medical personnel infected in their 6 week battle with COVID-19. No medical community can sustain those kinds of losses in that short amount of time. It takes years to replace a medical professional. Until a vaccine is created, we must take faster action against outbreaks so they don't overwhelm our medical community. It will save lives but at a cost to our economies.
UK pledges $248 million to WHO and charities.
Singapore has a spike in cases. They are now getting tougher on people who break the rules pertaining to social distancing and masks.
In the last few days, COVID-19 is killing 2000 Americans daily. That pace makes it the #1 killer of Americans and would kill 730,000 Americans a year. The flu kills 12,000-62,000 in any given year.
The USA ... your curve... is akin to an Atlas Rocket exiting the atmosphere ((
I already reported that relative of my wife's friend, who is MD in Belarus, stated that they are not allowed to put Corona on death certificate as cause of death.
You sound very certain. Today US cases stand at about 550,000 and deaths at 22,000. What do you predict by June 30?
Who trusts Belarus' reports ?
simply because of the 'unknown' nature of the disease that we are prone to over-emphasize the urgency. No one knows the limitations, hence, we tend to change our behaviors and over-react.
BillyB, what about you folks up there in Washington, what are you guys doing up north?
You are comparing a few consecutive days of statistics to years and years of statistics for flu. And those flu statistics are concentrated each year over about 5 months. Short interval stats will normalize over time.
This virus is not going away even with mitigation. So, Billy, how safe is "safe" by your standards? Zero, 100, 1000 deaths per day?
"We make a recommendation," said Dr. Anthony Fauci, when asked by @JakeTapper about reports that he and other top officials called for social distancing in February. "Often the recommendation is taken. Sometimes it's not. But it is what it is. We are where we are right now."
Tony said more than that, much more, knowing that somebody besides an immunologist should answer the question how safe is "safe," especially given the economic and social tradeoffs inherent in such decision making.
Hopefully, the time will come when those who worried about the economics costs will pay with their jobs.
I wonder if those who contend Tony Fauci should be making this decision would also support having a military general and not the President be the Commander-in-Chief. MacArthur had a superb military record yet was relieved by Truman because he promoted a wider war with China, a war that could become nuclear and lead to WWIII. Truman's popularity dipped to the lowest in history of any serving President, and he decided not to run for re-election.
Is the question how safe is "safe" a medical or socioeconomic question?
I wonder if those who contend Tony Fauci should be making this decision would also support having a military general and not the President be the Commander-in-Chief. MacArthur had a superb military record yet was relieved by Truman because he promoted a wider war with China, a war that could become nuclear and lead to WWIII. Truman's popularity dipped to the lowest in history of any serving President, and he decided not to run for re-election.
Of course, whether Trump keeps his job depends in part upon public health as well as the economy.
If America beat the Soviets and the spread of Communism....
Come on, Phil - no need to prove you're being obtuse..
IF you are asking, "what is the point of having a team of experts around ", as Trmpu' claims ..then IGNORING the advice of Dr Fauci .. you'd HAVE a point ...
But he's 'running' the show, now ....
Churchill got 'rewarded' for his WWII role by being booted out of office .. IF you are asking, "what is the point of having a team of experts around ", as Trmpu' claims ..then IGNORING the advice of Dr Fauci .. you'd HAVE a point ...
This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.
This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.
The point is the military equivalent of Tony Fauci should not decide whether to invade the CCCP or Red China.
Dr. Fauci, the trumpeted *EXPERT* declared late February that the US have nothing to worry about this pandemic. It changed shortly thereafter. He followed that up by giving us a whole bunch of overly-estimated models which proved way out of the ballpark. He earned a nice fortune cookie for these wonderful declarations so far.
That's what we said about the Iraq war also a decade ago. Problem is we didn't have an exit strategy. Ditto with this virus, so far no exit strategy. Lemme tell ya, it's very tenacious.
Don't be fooled by the graphs, there are weekend lulls, guess some labs are taking weekends off. Is possible deaths on weekends are underreported as well. My gut feeling it'll be another 6 weeks before we (in the US) note with confidence a fall in numbers of new infections which is the first indicator that should trend down. What happens 'afterwards' can be a prolonged process as well along with risks of rebound across the nation.
I think Cuomo said it best. http://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/04/13/new-york-gov-cuomo-on-coronavirus-i-believe-the-worst-is-over-if-we-continue-to-be-smart.html
But what about info that Billy posted indicating that corona will cause lasting physical and mental damage to those who contract it and survive ?
That's what we said about the Iraq war also a decade ago. Problem is we didn't have an exit strategy. Ditto with this virus, so far no exit strategy. Lemme tell ya, it's very tenacious.
Don't be fooled by the graphs, there are weekend lulls, guess some labs are taking weekends off.
Date Σ Tests Δ Tests Σ +'s Δ +'s 23-Mar 13,094 1,171 24-Mar 16,046 2,952 1,467 296 25-Mar 27,539 11,493 2,355 888 26-Mar 29,114 1,575 2,484 129 27-Mar 32,983 3,869 2,900 416 28-Mar 43,071 10,088 4,038 1,138 29-Mar 50,528 7,457 4,950 912 30-Mar 56,702 6,174 5,704 754 31-Mar 64,661 7,959 6,741 1,037 1-Apr 69,265 4,604 7,793 1,052 2-Apr 80,356 11,091 9,008 1,215 3-Apr 95,835 15,479 10,268 1,260 4-Apr 107,313 11,478 11,545 1,277 5-Apr 116,898 9,585 12,350 805 6-Apr 126,048 9,150 13,629 1,279 7-Apr 139,669 13,621 14,747 1,118 8-Apr 143,707 4,038 15,698 951 9-Apr 156,852 13,145 16,826 1,128 10-Apr 165,686 8,834 17,968 1,142 11-Apr 175,834 10,148 18,986 1,018 12-Apr 185,520 9,686 19,895 909 |
My gut feeling it'll be another 6 weeks before we (in the US) note with confidence a fall in numbers of new infections which is the first indicator that should trend down.
TOTAL DAILY DATE HOSP. HOSP. 28-Mar 567 29-Mar 633 66 30-Mar 715 82 31-Mar 857 142 1-Apr 990 133 2-Apr 1,167 177 3-Apr 1,334 167 4-Apr 1,470 136 5-Apr 1,555 85 6-Apr 1,719 164 7-Apr 1,893 174 8-Apr 2,082 189 9-Apr 2,298 216 10-Apr 2,496 198 11-Apr 2,607 111 12-Apr 2,672 65 |
What happens 'afterwards' can be a prolonged process as well along with risks of rebound across the nation.
….So it isn't like they recovered and survived the virus and all of the sudden they also got rid of obesity, diabetes, coronary ailment, pneumonia, hypertension, black lungs, etc...
the very vast majority of those who suffered or died from this infection aren't exactly the cream of the crop health-wise to begin with.
Again, what I'm saying is the very vast majority of people succumbing to this virus are those with underlying health condition to begin with.
However, the words Billy quote seem to me to be applicable to very healthy people as well.
“COVID-19 is not just a respiratory disorder,” said Dr. Harlan Krumholtz, a cardiologist at Yale University. “It can affect the heart, the liver, the kidneys, the brain, the endocrine system and the blood system.”
CDC officials do not have exact counts of how many people die from flu each year. Flu is so common that not all flu cases are reported, and flu is not always listed on death certificates. So the CDC uses statistical models, which are periodically revised, to make estimates.http://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/
CDC officials called the 80,000 figure preliminary, and it may be slightly revised. But they said it is not expected to go down.
Fatal complications from the flu can include pneumonia, stroke and heart attack.
In 2017, it was estimated that 80,000 Americans died of the flu that year. 80,000!!! LMAO! And we have vaccines for these. That was Trump's first year as POTUS! I don't remember any talk of social distancing, face mask, lockdowns, graphs, toilet paper hoarding, flight banning, etc...
but yeah - models did reared it's ugly head: The death rate apparently was an estimate based on modeling.
http://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/
I agree. COVID-19 in the US will decline from the currently peaking epidemic levels to an endemic level. Some locales could even experience another peak. In other words, the virus will not "exit," and over the next few years perhaps 80% of the population will have been infected. Accept it.
The weekend pattern is not seen in Florida data, which I follow closely for my county, another county nearby, and even my postal zip code. There are lows and highs, with the low numbers occurring on Tuesday-Wednesday. Statewide data for 21 million population (about 1/3 of Italy's) are below:
The number of daily new cases in Florida has remained relatively flat even as the number of daily tests reached its peak. Florida's lockdown was not stringent, e. g., the Governor declared religious services were essential.
Our hospitalizations peaked four days ago; however, the numbers are too small to be confident about identifying a trend. Nothing suggests we have to wait six weeks for smaller numbers of new infections.
Which now brings me to this new point...
he knows they BS big time and decided to ban travel from China in January. He knew this virus was extremely dangerous back in January and took action that shocked the world. He later shocked the world again banning travel from Europe.
Am I missing something?
Since the shutdown, 300% rise on suicide rates, DV increased, Opioid deaths spiraling. Not to mention the desperation of those struck down by this pandemic on the economic scale of this problem. The country needs to move forward.Well shows how 'resilient' and 'exceptional' the US populace is.
My impression is that is only expected in those that have severe reactions to the virus and are on deaths doorstep.
I can get on a plane tomorrow bound for the US. Maybe I'm asymptomatic, infecting folks along the way.. who is to know?
No country pays much attention to the flu. All countries are taking this virus seriously so it's just not one leader of one country that is overestimating this virus.This seems to be pretty strong evidence that there is something more to this virus than the current death count in the US which seemingly isn't that large just yet. It begs the question of:
Makes me wonder what is going on. What doesn't the public know?
This, from the guy who believes global warming caused by man is causing long, dry spell in desert areas. I doubt Trump cares about any opinion coming from such characters who harbor such idiotic opinion.
Dr. Fauci, the trumpeted *EXPERT* declared late February that the US have nothing to worry about this pandemic. It changed shortly thereafter.
He followed that up by giving us a whole bunch of overly-estimated models which proved way out of the ballpark. He earned a nice fortune cookie for these wonderful declarations so far.
The lastest grim estimate of dead Americans is now adjusted to 60,000! Yeay! That would put us right smack on par with 2017, 2018 seasonal flu death counts.
This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.
Such a response identifies you as the obtuse one. You are deliberately being slow. The question of how safe is "safe" is exactly the question, and the answer will involve tradeoffs. It is such a perplexing decision that you will not begin to write a substantive answer.
If we stay in lockdown, as your criticism of Trump suggests, until all leading medical doctors say it is "safe" to go back to work, you will not see SC until maybe mid-2021.
Trump synthesizes the opinions of Fauci and many other scientists, economists, etc. Trump even listens to people like you (those who look only in the rearview mirror), and he answers their questions , e. g., Jim Acosta at the briefings.
Yes, isn't it great!!!!
Maybe it's time to come home BC. We'll take you back, warts, infections, and all.
Then what city will be the next NYC? Yours?
The number 1 moneymaker in FL is tourism.
How about all those cruise ships?
Can't we be smarter than this incredibly dumb virus that does not even have a brain?
1/ Gator - your question was answers... as long as it takes, either to find a vaccine or better treatment
2/ If that means I'll not be with SC for a while .. I'd rather have that and be paying for for the govt borrowings, than losing friends and family needlessly early
The point hat the good Doctor has made is that 'Trampu' DOESN'T listen to good advice ...
Sure' ... tell THAT to lose who have lost loved ones - probably because 'Trampu' was more worried about the economy ... Again... he is not alone in not listening to the more negative predictions and necessary steps that should have been taken ...
SOME folks seek to shut down WHO ( or have its head replaced ) for asking govts to "TEST, TEST and TEST again" ..
Seems to me the wrong guy is in the crosshairs of those to dumb to see who SHOULD be replaced !
The real reason partisan patriots like jone and gator continue to unsuccessfully berate china is because they are beating us (The US) around the globe.
Do not parrot what China tells you.
You might be the only non-Chinese citizen to believe this.
As yes, I noticed you were still misquoting longer dry spells and the sparks that started the Paradise fire weren't at all to do with the MUCH longer, drier spells...
And.. ? He learnt more and revised his viewpoint - perfectly normal for an honest person
As we have no way of knowing if his models WERE 'over-estimations' .. He certainly explained they were worst case scenarios - if NOTHING was done ... I'm wondering what you're trying to 'achieve' .. other than drawing attention to your ability to warp the words / intent of folks....
But did they quarantine you ? ,,,, Are you suggesting that lock-downs are a waste of time ...? If so, relocate to Sweden or Belarus...
I'll probably have that as MY strapline in a few months ... to remind you .. :deadhorse:
lock-downs are a waste of time ...? If so, relocate to Sweden or Belarus...
2. We now have better tools in the medical toolbox - At the top of this list is testing.
Well shows how 'resilient' and 'exceptional' the US populace is.
If what you report is accurate moving forward may be have a higher survival rate even with the virus running loose!
Fathertime!
I watched Pence last night who stated that 110,000 tests per day were being performed. That's only a little over twice the rate here in Italy. Mentions that some states were not testing to capacity, or that materials were not on hand etc.
We'll have our own challenges with testing here, but what hit me as odd is if we in the US have a 25-30,000 positives per day with 110,000 tests, are hospitals and doctors still having difficulty getting tests done for staff? What about our elderly in assisted living homes etc? Is the 'flattening' of new infections artificial?
It will, of course, take a huge testing push to get and keep a handle on the virus. I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this most important aspect of recovery.
BC-
It isn't solely about availability of test. This seeming low number of daily testing is attributable to the fact most places, if not all, are only 'testing' those showing symptoms.
I watched Pence last night who stated that 110,000 tests per day were being performed.
It will, of course, take a huge testing push to get and keep a handle on the virus. I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this most important aspect of recovery.
4701 vs. 731. Interesting numbers. The first is the seasonal average for flu deaths in the State of California. The second number is the actual deaths in California from COVID 19.
I have always felt that the warmer the climate, the fewer deaths from viruses. Maybe that's just me.
That would make logical sense, but the 'top of the curve' just seems way too flat IMO. I am pretty sure any excess testing capacity would be extended to health workers, police and other critical workers. Is that happening?
Agree. Testing is the key to reducing the number of infections to low numbers.
They're mostly snowflakes, FT. But since you admitted not belonging to the 'exceptional /resilient' group that the vast majority of true Americans like myself are, we need not worry.Still haven't missed a day or minute of work, unlike you huddled up behind your rolls of toilet paper. You can still call yourself 'exceptional' though, since it makes you feel good about yourself.
Unlike you, of course.
FWIW, where I am. I noticed about a 35-40% rise in rush hour traffic on my way to work this morning. Daily traffic report on the radio also noted the increase.There was a large increase where I was also, and I've spoke to a few others that have said the same.
14 April 2020 In uncertain – indeed, weird – times like these, as we increase our social isolation to ‘flatten the curve’, literature provides escape, relief, comfort and companionship. Less comfortingly, though, the appeal of pandemic fiction has also increased. Many pandemic titles read like guide books to today’s situation. And many such novels give a realistic chronological progression, from first signs through to the worst times, and the return of ‘normality’. They show us we’ve been through this before. We’ve survived.http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20200413-what-can-we-learn-from-pandemic-fiction
Are you saying that having COVID 19 saved almost 4000 lives? Is it determinable to know how many deaths were from the flu?
I think it is way to early to determine if coronavirus will act like influenza virus and be seasonal or if it will be back next year. As I understand, the coronavirus mutates slower than influenza virus.
Are you saying that having COVID 19 saved almost 4000 lives? Is it determinable to know how many deaths were from the flu?
I think it is way to early to determine if coronavirus will act like influenza virus and be seasonal or if it will be back next year. As I understand, the coronavirus mutates slower than influenza virus.
Time to re-visit Sweden's policy .. much vaunted by those pointing to her and saying ' look' ..it's 'working for them' ..
Compare with their neighbours - who are imposing stricter measures ..
China did something strange again. For over 3 weeks, they haven't reported more than 7 deaths a day. Some days they reported zero deaths. Today they reported 1290 deaths. Could it be them attempting to raise the number of deaths to decrease the number of accusations that they are lying? Their reputation is taking a hit. Fortunately for them, there's quite a few people out there that would never hold them responsible.If China wants to update their numbers periodically that makes sense to do. The increase isn't that great a number. Since they are used to walking around with facemasks and took draconian measures it is possible that they got a handle on the virus earlier than other nations. I tend to believe their numbers aren't that far out of whack like many others do. While politically the US wants to blame and demonize China for the virus, many other nations aren't going to be dragged along with us. We (The US) want to try to force China to bend to our will and will stop at nothing (Aside from actual war), to force them but we have continued to fail.
STILL suggesting this all 'kicked off' in Wuhan ? ..... :popcorn:
the virus made its way to Wuhan where it first made the news by overwhelming the medical care system, becoming a pandemic.
In 'Differences between two viruses, paragraph 3 states 'COVID-19 can shed viruses'. Does that mean that the asymptomatic infected can infect other people?
Nice write-up.
In 'Differences between two viruses, paragraph 3 states 'COVID-19 can shed viruses'. Does that mean that the asymptomatic infected can infect other people?
Using basic arithmetic, a population of 330 million will thus achieve herd immunity immunity in about 3 years. That would be 3 years of millions of sick people. It is also 3 years of restricted life, starting off with restrictive measures envisioned in Trump's Phase One plan, and gradually going to Phase Two, then Phase Three.
So the general mood is to reverse the "lockdown" and return to work in a phased approach. How long will the phased approach take?
I believe without development of "home tests" it will take years, and meanwhile we will not have reopened the nation.
The 'Swoosh' may already be at the low point. Investors are awaiting signs that the death/infection rate - or maybe just the hospital rate - has reached its high point. The market took a 1200 point jump today on just such an assumption.
Laser light lab test shows the need to wear mask.
RWD is safer than talking with a golf buddy.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/health-wellness/how-does-sars-cov-2-spread-laser-demonstration-shows-how/723608?utm_medium=push&utm_source=pushly&utm_content=511946&utm_campaign=pushly_trial
As each day goes by the less and less I'm trusting the information being shoved down our proverbial throats
Would you rather have a shaft shoved up our proverbial arses? ))
Is there a difference?
Even today after all that has been happening, I dealt with numerous people who weren't wearing masks, wanted to shake hands, and were a little closer than I would have preferred. Based on what I've seen I'd suspect this virus has a ways to go before it runs it's course. That said, when vegas opens whenever that is, I'll be there, and will be curious to see what measures are taken.
We can't trust nations and we can't trust the common man to do their part.
So, your President closed the borders and wants the USA to open ..?!Yeah mobers, the wall he was trying to build wasn't just to keep people out...it was to keep us locked in.
Not at all conflicting...
Or, since COVID is another strain of coronavirus like SARS,
it could well be this strain will just *disappear* like its predecessor.
IF SARS-COV-2 mutates a lot like the flu does, then a vaccine will be needed for every major mutation. It's why we need to get this virus out of our bodies before it infects too many people increasing the chances of major mutation and becoming harder to control.
BillyB-
There never was any vaccine for SARS. Dr. Fauci, when asked about it, simply said there never was any vaccine because SARS just *disappeared*.
SARS-COV-2 is different coronavirus than SARS. SARS-COV-2 has at least 8 strains running around the world I read a few weeks ago. If we build an immunity to one strain, will we have an immunity to other strains? IF SARS-COV-2 mutates a lot like the flu does, then a vaccine will be needed for every major mutation. It's why we need to get this virus out of our bodies before it infects too many people increasing the chances of major mutation and becoming harder to control. Trying for herd immunity may actually help the virus more than us. Experts can't agree which is the best way to attack the virus. Exposing ourselves to achieve herd immunity or hide from the virus. Here is a 2017 article explaining why we don't ever develop immunity to the common cold coronaviruses.
http://www.technologynetworks.com/immunology/news/why-dont-we-ever-develop-immunity-against-the-common-cold-294551
Yes, there are at least 8 strains of SARS CoV 2 but they mutate slowly( maybe twice a month), much different than flu which mutates
Don't go by your 'stories' you read on the internet.
WILL THE SUMMER SEASON REDUCE NUMBER OF INFECTIONS?
I look in Florida and notice that the warmest region (Miami) has a much higher proportion of reported infections.
May be related to sunlight killing the virus left on outside surfaces.
May be related to sunlight killing the virus left on outside surfaces.
I favor the notion that sneezed or coughed antigens are more rapidly evaporating in the warm air making it more difficult for the disease to transfer.
Evaporation results from the movement of unsaturated air. Its plenty warm in Florida, yet in Florida the relative humidity approaches 100%, so sweat stays on the skin (as do droplets). You live in California where sweat evaporates, which is cooling. :D
A friend picked up my golf club, formerly a friendly gesture but now a "no-no."
Why did you throw your golf club down ?
I favor the notion that sneezed or coughed antigens are more rapidly evaporating in the warm air making it more difficult for the disease to transfer.
Boy, these daily briefings are getting pretty dangerous with all the unproven anecdotal information that is being basted out in desperation.
Maybe I'll start huffing window cleaner and see if that works.
Here's a new one. Viagra, not as a preventative, but after the respiratory system is stressed.
If I 'go', it's gonna be with a stiffie so yeah if that's what it takes I'm all for it.
According to today's press briefing...experts agree that this virus actually survive better in warm, dry air climate like So. California, than the warm, high humidity air like Florida's.
On nonporous surfaces such as stainless steel, the new coronavirus takes 18 hours to lose half its strength in a dark, low-humidity environment, Bryan said.
In a high-humidity environment, that half-life dropped to six hours, and when the virus was exposed to high humidity and sunlight, the half-life dropped to two minutes, he said.
Researchers found a similar effect with the coronavirus that was suspended in the air - simulating the coughing or sneezing that often spreads the disease. In a dark room, the virus maintained half its strength for an hour.
But when exposed to sunlight, it lost half its strength in 90 seconds, Bryan said.
Gator,
If I 'go', it's gonna be with a stiffie so yeah if that's what it takes I'm all for it.
Indeed, the disinfectant remedy is bizarre. I missed that hearing that part, yet from what others have said, it was regrettable. Give Trump credit - he stopped short of a personal demonstration. ;D
The humidity and UV factors were discussed here.
Garp's father ??
I heard this on the news last night, and then saw this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-home-isolation.html) about the same thing. Maybe another deposit to the evolving notion that there are in fact far more infected folks then the symptomatic lot.
In Italy, apparently if the report is correct, are bracing at the prospect the whole 'stay-at-home' mandate is a 'ticking-time-bomb' waiting to explode.
Gives new meaning to the phrase, "it's safe to come out of the house now".
Boy, these daily briefings are getting pretty dangerous with all the unproven anecdotal information that is being basted out in desperation.
Trump today dismissed the "injection of disinfectant" as sarcasm directed at a "fake news" reporter. Not even Fox was buying that.
Personally I believe Trump may be working too much.
He has meeting after meeting with complex presentations and data on subjects such as global oil production, Iranian missile tests, national debt, China trade, stock market, the election campaign, North Korea, immigration......
....and if it wasn't for the virus, he'd have the spotlight shining on him re kicking off a dub trade war and tipping us ( that's the world ) into recession ..
Complete nonsense, and nothing to do with the topic.
Considering your 'leader' is constantly tweeting and spouting bollox ...you'll forgive my wry smile..
Do you realize you exhibit many of Trump's flaws? In other words: POT....KETTLE....BLACK.
The one difference is that you end up opposite of him on the policy spectrum.
'Sure'...
To elaborate, your posts are in the same vein as Trump's tweets: attack, attack, attack, often misspeaking the facts.
There are differences: Trump boasts, Trump develops. Not you as that would smack of optimism.
There's more
MY posts....
Perhaps my being right all along irks you ? ;)
So, yes, I agree with FP above. Such as, Trump's trade negotiations with China were not pushing the global economy into recession.
Trump today dismissed the "injection of disinfectant" as sarcasm directed at a "fake news" reporter. Not even Fox was buying that.
Personally I believe Trump may be working too much. He has 10X the acumen of Biden, yet these days Trump is working 'around the clock' on many fronts besides public health. He has meeting after meeting with complex presentations and data on subjects such as global oil production, Iranian missile tests, national debt, China trade, stock market, the election campaign, North Korea, immigration...…
He needs to let others speak more yet still keep his role of synthesizing all.
I do too!
Despite his occasional 'faux pas' (sorry, FP), which are no more than the last stooge we had, Trump had this nation at a prosperous point never achieved by any POTUS before him - and that's doing it in less than the 4 years of his first term!!!
He took on so many fronts Obama can only dream about..trashed TPP/Nafta/ISIL/etc...unprecedentedly improved minority employment numbers all in the same period!
He never have, or will never, sell this country out like Obama/Biden did.
Keep America Great!
You should've added (IMO) that he is/was all of that and more as an unpaid President and as a career businessman, not a politican
Supply and demand. US tariffs made many things from China a bit cheaper here, at least in relative terms, maybe more.
I used to buy a new Apple laptop or iMac on my trips to the USA or other apple goodies. Nowadays I just buy it here as the prices are essentially the same when deducting sales tax and posting as business expense.
Not quite GQ, pricing has levelled over the years. Last couple years pretty much the same except that here sales tax is already added to the price which gets reimbursed.
I'm looking at three imac's, two 27 inch I use in a dual monitor work setup and a macbook to watch news right now in my home office. Another mac on a desk nearby for the help. One macbook in the travel bag, an ipad in the car, another that I use around the house. Wife has a mac, daughter has one, son has one and we pretty much everyone has an iphone and ipad. Throw in a couple of watches on top and a few routers and access points around the house and garden. If that's a stretch in your dictionary quite ok.
As has been stated here before . . . those are the numbers reported by the various nations.
Two caveats:
1) Different reporting criteria. e.g. some report Corona when something else might have been present. Some don't report Corona, if another problem at same time.
2) Outright lying.
Not at 9 USD / pint, they aren't )
Michigan with perhaps the most stringent mitigation measures has the lowest Rt (approaching 0.7). Was the suppression of the disease worth the suppression of the economy?
Furthermore, methods to arrive at some R0 value are not comparative.
This is why the 'official' guidelines look for a steady decrease and not some stable Rt or other value.
As I have posted before . . . bankruptcies and reorganizations are common place in real estate developments.
I still maintain that a 'plateau' is not the time to drop the level of mitigation.
New York state for example seems to be doing a good job beating the beast down, but still has a way to go with still around 4k infections detected per day - far to many to track and trace and well over twice that in Italy now which is falling rapidly (1200 today).
Texas should definitely not be loosening mitigation now and in fact should be tightening them
That point has been made to Moby at least 20 times by me personally.
He just dusts off that line and posts it again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and
He only has about 25 arguments all of which have been refuted
so he just recycles them.
This news means the virus may have arrived in France almost a month earlier than previously thought.[/i]
Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'
Maybe it originated there?
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
BillyB
What is it with you that you see 'affirmation' of conspiracy theories with tenuous events ...
YES, it would be suspicious in most other nations, but given tourists couldn't get near Tiananmen Square for the official New Year celebrations ..
So 'normal' is what ?
Maybe it originated there?
As noted early on, many early cases were likely masked in the background noise of the flu season. Can't wait to get tested to see if the very bad bout of flu I had in early February was Covid.
FP,
Suspicions are mounting, but haven't seen any evidence yet that supports such.
Yes, those symptoms sound very familiar. Here had severe chills for a couple of days under a ton of blankets, high temperature and dry cough. Think I was 'out of order' for almost a week. Then my dog had a similar cough afterwards for a few days. Was the first time I ever picked up a bottle of O2 to suck on for a couple of days and nights to go along with the Clarithromycin I took.
Guessing if it was covid it was a mild case, but was worrisome enough at the time. I did know of covid but thought it impossible as my last travels were back in November.
Wow FP, that is much longer than what I experienced. Glad you survived and hope some immunity was gained. Anyone else in your household catch your cough?
Someone upthread mentioned the high number of fatalities in Europe vs the US, and seemed to blame it on socialized medicine.
Most European countries were hit with a more deadly strain of COVID-19 than parts of the US, and even China. Type B, which hit most of Europe (Type C prevailed in Italy) is far more deadly than Type A, which prevailed in China and on the US West Coast. Type B was prevalent on the US East Coast.
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??
...
GQB doesn't know WHAT he is talking about
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??
30k plus dead in the UK
“The story is worrying, as we see a mutated form of the virus very rapidly emerging, and over the month of March becoming the dominant pandemic form,” study leader Bette Korber, a computational biologist at Los Alamos, wrote on her Facebook page. “When viruses with this mutation enter a population, they rapidly begin to take over the local epidemic, thus they are more transmissible.”
LMAO! From simple arithmetic, to N95 masks, to global warming and long dry desert spells, to N.Ireland being a 'country'...hysterical.
Based on the death rate, you are 3x as likely to die of the same disease in the UK compared to the US. Fact.
1/ Arithmetic error on my part now acknowledged several times .. I'm sure you've never posted any mistake
2/ 'N95' is a US term for which we (EU) have two standards - one capable of handling dust particles, t'other ..v.fine liquid particulates ... you have forgotten that lesson... how 'convenient' ..
3/ N.California has ever shorter rainy seasons... YOU duck and weave, refusing to believe this could be anything to do with man-kind ..
4/ N.Ireland is a country and when you'll see Rory McIlroy's score on the screen - think of me.
Now back to the thread theme..
Depends WHERE you are in the US / UK .. the latter has a MUCH denser population index ..
United Kingdom is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2)
USA 36 per Km2 (94 people per mi2)
Some more arithmetic for you..the UK is nearly EIGHT times more densely populated
Now, let's deal with your crappy arithmetic
a) UK population = c.68 million, c.30k deaths
b) US population c.328 million c. 72k deaths
US has c.4.8 times the population... agreed, so far ...?
So, if the US matched the UK it should have 144k deaths... agreed so far ...?
The US has (so far) 72k deaths.... SO... one is TWICE ( not three times) more likely to have died ..There's the FACT...
Next time you choose to 'pick a fight' ... be sure to check for your very own peccadilloes, eh ? ...
Dearest GQB
Please indulge me in detailed explanations as to your own arithmetic being seriously flawed..
To this poster, it seems that you have difficulty owned a mistake - whilst being v.quick to pointing them out ..
Dearest GQB
Please indulge me in detailed explanations as to your own arithmetic being seriously flawed..
Most Blue States are badly managed and owes zillions to their state employee
pensions and they are going to stay closed as long as possible and lose as many
businesses and jobs as possible and then they are going to want a bailout from
everyone else when this is over.
They are permanently screwing up their tax revenues while simultaneously
blowing up their spending and then they will want to blame it on somebody
else besides themselves.
Anybody who is trying to math on this is just guessing. It's just like lefty
global warming predictions. They don't use all the factors in the equation
so they can project whatever they want. …
Anybody who is trying to math on this is just guessing. It's just like lefty
global warming predictions. They don't use all the factors in the equation
so they can project whatever they want.
NOBODY knows how many people have or had the virus that showed no
symptoms. Since nobody knows that number all the other numbers are
going to be wild projections.
100% of deaths are considered covid deaths even if they were involved in
a car wreck or had 10 heart attacks the year before.
Typical liberal mathematical model:
Garbage in/garbage out & pretend you are superior.
Your Dr Fauci - that some seek to 'discredit' because he's speaking from a medical person's perspective ... not a bean-counter has it nailed ..... you should be listening to his advice ...not the bean counters
]Chinese State Media Warn Country Will Interfere in U.S. Election
China Threatens to Sanction U.S. Politicians for Coronavirus Criticism
http://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-05-14/china-threatens-to-sanction-us-politicians-for-coronavirus-criticism
Many pharmaceutical companies are in the process of testing and developing vaccines for COVID-19. This morning, Moderna, the first company to start human testing, reported results of its Phase 1 Test. In the CEO's words, "we could not be happier."
Phase 1 involved injection of two doses in 51 subjects, grouped in different chorts. The first group was injected on March 16 and yielded the following results:
- 8 of 8 subjects showed neutralizing antibodies
- The response was dose dependent
- The produced antibody levels are similar to or higher than measured in patients who recovered from COVID-19
Safety is of course an issue. The reaction in subjects was similar to a flu shot (pain at injection site, redness at injection site, and mild chills or fever).
Phase 2 (600 subjects) has been approved and will be underway soon. Phase 3 ("many thousands") is scheduled to start in July.
The news is so good as to move the stock market up significantly.
Source, please ?
Sorrento has been diligently screening billions of antibodies... and has so far identifiedhundreds of antibody candidates that bind the S1 subunit of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein. Approximately one dozen of these antibodies have demonstrated the ability to block the S1 protein's interaction with humanangiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), the receptor used for viral entrance into human cells.
Among the antibodies showing neutralizing activity, one antibody stood out forits ability to completely block SARS-CoV-2 infection of healthy cells in the experiments. STI-1499 completely neutralized the virus infectivity at a very low antibody dose, making it a prime candidate for further testing and development. Initial biochemical and biophysical analyses also indicate STI-1499 is a potentially strong antibody drug candidate.
1) it will be impossible to develop readily the billions of doses needed for the world,
2) not everyone will choose to be vaccinated.
Washington Post's coverage of Moderna's vaccine after analyzing the test results and comparing with other vaccines in the pipeline.
Link Here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/18/coronavirus-vaccine-first-results/)
Title: "Moderna’s coronavirus vaccine shows encouraging early results"
I watched part of Trump's Fox News interview yesterday. In the interview he refused to speculate on the origins of COVID 19. But he did say that he has some really good intel.
Link Here
How many have really died from SARS-Cov2 / COVID-19 in the UK, so far ?
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/5/19/80803979-fc53-48b0-8851-698b9b2cc338.png)
UK sees almost 55,000 extra deaths
Figures released by the UK's national statistical agencies show that there were 54,437 more deaths up to 8 May than would normally have been expected by this time of year.
All nations will be in the same boat as UK underreporting by accident or on purpose. I have read a few individuals here were told to manipulate the data so it wouldn't look so bad.
Given the financial incentive that reimburse hospitals more for COVID cases, the US is likely more guilty of over-reporting.
How many have really died from SARS-Cov2 / COVID-19 in the UK, so far ?
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/5/19/80803979-fc53-48b0-8851-698b9b2cc338.png)
Robert Cuffe, the BBC's head of statistics, said the larger "excess deaths" figure was likely to capture the true impact of the virus, reflecting the numbers of people who died without a test
Just saw a segment on news tonight regarding similar situation in Russia.
The government numbers for deaths from Corona looked to be too low .
I will say Putin did an excellent job closing Russia's border with China early so that is why their outbreak is starting later than even ours.
PROMISING NEWS ON SECOND VACCINE
The funding is helping to setup production for fast delivery of doses when approved for use. The US has already secured 300 million doses, to be ready by January 2021.
your immunity will decline by about 30% per year after either getting a vaccine or being infected and surviving
Corona vaccines will be like a flu vaccine, there will need to be a refresh at least every year and the vaccine will likely need to be a combination of several strains combined into one vaccine
you can google and read about it
IMHO. they should also combine Corona with a flu vaccine
but none of that is going to happen this year in the USA
and next year will be too damned late
Corona vaccines will be like a flu vaccine, there will need to be a refresh at least every year and the vaccine will likely need to be a combination of several strains combined into one vaccine
we are not being allowed to develop herd immunity
Ah, the famed 'herd immunity'..
..and how many must DIE to achieve your idea of 'heaven' .. ?
you’ll need to suffer between 1 and 2 million deaths to get the USA to the level of herd immunity
and there will still be hundreds of thousands more deaths after that see Fauci’s estimate
doesn’t sound like a good solution to me...
meanwhile Korea has about 1% of our infection rate
because they used the WHO test instead of wasting time endeavoring to develop their own
and aggressive contact tracing and quarantine instead of lying to the public about Covid
yeah, 1% of our numbers...
i dunno bout you, but I like their numbers better
too bad we didn’t do that instead of calling it a hoax to hurt Trump’s campaign
yup, I’m hunkered down, and look like a character out of Andromeda strain when I have to go out into stores filled with virus protestors
but, my odds of being alive next year are MUCH greater than yours, because I am taking MAXIMUM precautions
because that is the logical thing to do
cuz no freakin way, am I gonna drink the Kool-Aid like you
And then there's the forum and world expert with contacts across the globe from his mum's basement that just keeps rebounding with nothing. Time and time again, nothing.
How many are going to have to die yearly from repeating this pandemic if we stay in lock down, continually suppressing immunity and do not gain herd immunity? What say you Mr. Expert?
it's been estimated, that Trump's firing the doctor in charge of the federal vaccine program for his refusing to promote hydroxychloroquine cost the federal government 6 months of vaccine development time
Trump's negligence has cost 10s of thousands of American lives but that doesn't fit into your mind, because you are complicit in his crimes because you voted for him
you are an accessory to the preventable deaths of thousands of your own countrymen
you want to have your voice, your freedom, but want to deny these rights to those who don't believe in Trump
that DEFINITELY makes you a Repiublicon
step 1 for the USA to pull out of this mess, is to get rid of Trump in Nov
corrupt democrats - cuz Trump called them that, what other evidence do YOU need, right?
this whole thing of rednecks loving them some Trump just blows my mind
PROMISING NEWS ON SECOND VACCINE
Three days ago Moderna released human test data showing very promising news in developing a vaccine, and the stock market jumped up. Today comes promising news on a second vaccine that is now in Phase 2 trials with two Phase 3 trials planned to commence soon:
Moderna may turn out to be a big phony although their stock is skyrocketing.
I am not sure of your point.
Many biotechs are in the same situation as Moderna, nothing but promise.
If you are saying this vaccine will never be proven safe and effective, you should use your pharmaceutical brilliance to consult for biotechs to help them decide which medicines they should pursue.
There are biotech companies ....
You don't understand biotech. You are not alone.While I hav not looked in to this, BillyB has a point. There are still a number of companies getting nvestment on bad science and empty promises. It would not be strange to see one of these bubble companies jump on to the current need.
While I hav not looked in to this, BillyB has a point. There are still a number of companies getting nvestment on bad science and empty promises. It would not be strange to see one of these bubble companies jump on to the current need.
At Billy's age, IMO he should have no more than 10% of his stock portfolio invested in speculative stocks, and biotech is only one choice.
There have been some reports of people getting reinfected with covid-19, but Sharpless said that's still a topic generating questions in the health community. It's possible that those people never fully recovered the first time, he said, “or it may be that they got reinfected.” In either case, Sharpless said it's “a pretty rare event, if it happens at all.”
From the data we have, it still seems to be rare that an asymptomatic person actually transmits onward to a secondary individual.
We have a number of reports from countries who are doing very detailed contact tracing. They're following asymptomatic cases, they're following contacts and they're not finding secondary transmission onward. It is very rare....
Gator,
is 'brief lockdown' defined?
... we're talking 90 days from our national lockdown on 10 April.
That's about as 'brief' as I could imagine the scenario. And lockdowns remain a very important part of the plan.
Instead of long lockdowns, we need to 1) ban travel, 2) implement a brief lockdown, 3) make masks mandatory, 4) implement a massive program of measuring in public body temperature of everyone, and 5) detain elevated cases for isolation, testing and observation. Yes, the program seen in China.
Would Americans accept Number 5 above?
IMPORTANT NEWS ABOUT COVID TRANSMISSION PATHWAYS
WHO announced new findings yesterday about COVID-19. The US and world in large have been combating the disease under the assumption that asymptomatic cases are infectious. Yesterday, WHO announced its research findings that asymptomatic transmission is rare....
Erin,
Nuts! I’m on the fence about this situation. At this point and time, I’m not sure of the validity of this report. I am posting two videos. First, an interview with Erin, a traveling nurse from Florida turned journalist, who turned in some pretty damning video implicating NY’s Elmhurst Hospital of wrong-doings during the darkest days of COVID.
Next video is by someone demonizing Erin for fraud.
Internet is starting to be flooded with negative reporting about this nurse. You be the judge. Erin said in her video towards the end, “I’ve nothing to gain, and everything to lose by doing this”.
Western nations tend to be more honest than other nations.Western nations like the US used to be good at creating excuses and narratives. Nowadays very few believe us outside the country and even within.
Western nations like the US used to be good at creating excuses and narratives. Nowadays very few believe us outside the country and even within.
Fathertime!
115,000 Americans have died from COVID-19. 43% of those occurred in long-term care facilities (nursing homes, assisted living), even though the total number of people housed there represents only about 1% of the nation's population.
You would think both Florida and Arizona would be on top of that list since those two are at the top of the list of preference for retired folks and affordable care homes.
However, I'm mystified about California being on the list. So far the death count is at 5,100. With nearly 3 million tested, a little over 5% tested positive, 153K. Of that number 9,500 (dead + currently hospitalized) represents 6.2%, of which (currently) 1,272 is in Intensive Care.
COVID doesn't seem as virulent to the greater population as initially declared.
In hindsight, it hardly justifies total shutdown of our state.
The risk of infection is about the same as it was last April. However, there is no need to shutdown again. It is now in the hands of the public to take proper mitigation measures. If not, they increase the risk of becoming infection.
We’re trying to figure out not what the data says but what the reaction to that data as consumed by individuals might be. But it at least tells us what to look at.
Our own ignorance kills us, not the virus.
Please try and help me understand where and why we went so awry, today touting our obvious failure as success.
Gator,
This is nothing more than another attempt to rationalize the problem away, to continue deceiving ourselves with 'early adopters' as our canaries.
If this virus worked just a bit differently, we would 'see' and react much differently. What if the virus resulted in death one day after exposure whilst maintaining all other factors the same Rt and mortality. Do you think folks would react differently, and how?
...despite increasing numbers of infections we can go back to business as usual.
Please try and help me understand where and why we went so awry, today touting our obvious failure as success.
What did you think of Jubak's comment, "...the key factor n determining how you react to the re-opening is whether or not you know anyone who got sick." I imagine all of us will eventually know someone got sick. I have already. She died.
Now, this is exponentially scary and I do fear for you all in FL and some other states. Although I know you and your family have been careful, maybe time to increase your level of awareness and precaution.
The Left are responsible for just as many deaths as anybody on
the right.
Not exponential growth, or at least the exponent is a small number for now.
Nobody knows what's going on or what the future will bring that
includes you.
..and Beel would respond that's the 'socialist way' of dealing with things.
As far as economic theories go, via the Fed, the US may well be one of the most socialist countries on the planet right now with large stakes in many private companies, banks, stocks and bonds.
One can, however, make educated guesses based on the facts and past experiences in hand. Anything less leans toward denial.
Just remember what we see in the charts today is the evidence of what started a couple of weeks ago.
We could well already be in a period of exponential growth. Unfortunately by the time we realize such it will be too late to react as the damage will have been done and again we are left to deal with the aftermath.
Over here, we would already be back in hard lockdown.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion GQ. I'm not gonna try and take that away from you.
Let's check back towards the end of the year and see who has been closer to the actual results before throwing hissy fits.
..and Beel would respond that's the 'socialist way' of dealing with things and need to be educated as to the make up of the Italian govt ;)
One can, however, make educated guesses based on the facts and past experiences in hand. Anything less leans toward denial.
So am I wrong? You know how this is going to pan out? I am in denial
because I am probably not onboard with your solutions?
I am against throwing us into a world wide depression unless mankind's
existence at our current lifestyle is at stake.
Russian doctors say that the reason why the FSU countries are not that suffering from covid is because there are very few senior homes there. Russian seniors are generally staying with their families that take care of them.
Proud to be Russian, and a full time caregiver to my mother ;)
You tell me 2Tall what is working and what is not...
Let's check back towards the end of the year and see who has
been closer to the actual results before throwing hissy fits.
(http://i.postimg.cc/YqXRHpLk/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-37-49.png)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfGDSyMp/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-38-17.png)
You tell me 2Tall what is working and what is not...
I do know that the USA is currently having Great Depression level
unemployment and that we can't sustain that.
No major economy is escaping the pandemic. The U.S. economy, the world’s largest, is expected to shrink this year by 8 percent. Countries that use the single European currency are headed for a decline of more than 10 percent while Japanese output will fall by 5.8 percent, the IMF said.
The Chinese economy, suffering the twin ravages of the pandemic and the trade war with the United States, is projected to eke out just a 1 percent gain — its worst performance in several decades.
Many variables to consider besides morbidity.
The actual total number of US cases of COVID-19 (tested and non-tested) now is believed by scientists to be about the same as in April. The smaller number of tests in April meant many cases went undetected.
The most important variable is "deaths." Because of evolutionary progression, less fatal strains of the virus should be more dominant today. Because deaths lag detection of infection, the next 2 weeks are important to understand a) the trajectory of the spreading and b) whether case fatality rate is indeed lower as expected.
Of course, another variable to consider is the economy, as the policy decisions involved tradeoffs.
Great Idea, why don't you make your prediction and others can make their
prediction(s) and we can check back and see who had the best insights
or luckiest guesses.
I started a thread here so predictions will be easier to find
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=18
(http://i.postimg.cc/YqXRHpLk/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-37-49.png)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfGDSyMp/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-38-17.png)
You look at one factor and it's really important, deaths and illness.
I am not trying to diminish that important data point. You are not
looking at the hit that it will put on the economy. Italy could freeze
all economic activity and kill their economy and save even more lives.
You are not considering what would happen if Italy ended up crippling
their economy for the next ten years because we don't know how bad,
how long or what the cost will be.
If I had the answer I would come out and say it. I don't know the solution.
I don't have the proper mix or formulation of what the ideal response would
be. As of today there have been 124K US covid deaths.
I do know that the USA is currently having Great Depression level
unemployment and that we can't sustain that. If the US dollar crashes
the World economy will crash as well. The last Great Depression took
10 years then a world war costing 85 million lives to recover from.
I doubt that Covid has the same potential for harm.
The chart is going to remain flat for awhile.
Your link to your offshoot thread ( to me ) leads to a cul de sac
BillyB, what part of that chart BC posted looks 'flat' to you ?
The US is spiking..the question you need to ask is WHY ?
Why start another thread? I like killing two birds with one stone :) But ok will look at it and copy my last post.
Beel, if it's not too late to edit ..
Your link to your offshoot thread ( to me ) leads to a cul de sac
Covid will continue in USA and even rise due to absolute stupidity.
In adjoining county, 12 students who had graduated High School went on trip to Myrtle Beach and brought back Covid with them. More than 12 had gone.
Those 12 then infected family and others, so within a week there were 30 new cases.
I think situations like this are ripe for lawsuits charging reckless behavior that led to injury to others (outside the families).
Bottom line 2Tall is that Italy didn't need to do these things and beat the virus at it's own game, with good chances of surviving well until the time a magic bullet arrives, or even if it does not.
All a matter of priorities and planning 2Tall.. Our misguided priorities, piss poor planning and non-existent follow-through is not only killing more of us than our neighbours and peers but also prolonging economic recovery which raises risk of further economic destruction.
We had a huge economic crisis because folks could not pay their mortgages, is the outlook any better today?
The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.
The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.
As of today, we still have no idea how and when this will end.
Trump had to ignore it. Obama allowed only the CDC to make test kits. Trump allowed States to hire private companies. Obama's plan wasn't suitable to handle the pathogen of the century which is predicted to show up once every century.
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! 2Tall declares it is everybody else's fault!
The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.
See posts on this way back somewhere...
Don't make yourself look rediculous 2Tall..
I'm not saying Trump is an Angel, or that he was right about everything
I am saying that nobody knew what was going on and EVERYBODY
switched every position at least twice.
You HATE Trump and couldn't find a bakery in Venice that sold a
stale loaf of bread without blaming it on Trump.
Already fully and completely debunked.
http://apnews.com/f4cd4c72e896d7fbd8ebd3516e864550
How are the lack of preparedness and the rules in that book Trump's fault?
I don't hate Trump, but do hate what he is doing to our country.
The 'playbook' left by the prior administration covered pretty much all aspects of such events and is written in a general way in order to be easily adaptable as events progress. Have you read it?
In 2005, officials at the United States Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) developed a Pandemic Influenza Plan to coordinate and improve efforts to prevent, control, and respond to A(H5N1) viruses as well as other novel influenza A viruses of animal (e.g. from birds or pigs) with pandemic potential. Although it is impossible to predict when the next pandemic will occur, United States government have developed three tools to guide national, state and local planning and response. These tools align with the World Health Organization’s (WHO) global framework of pandemic phases and risk assessment activities for preparedness, response, and recovery.
Pandemic Intervals Framework (PIF)
Influenza Risk Assessment Tool (IRAT)
Pandemic Severity Assessment Framework (PSAF)
National Pandemic Strategy Docu
I don't hate Trump, but do hate what he is doing to our country.
As I already stated, he did not follow the playbook.
Let us await a non-partisan investigation after the pandemic has ended. Until then, it is fruitless to debate given the advocacy that infects all news reporting....and if the investigation bears sour fruit for you, it will be derided and denied.
As of today, we still have no idea how and when this will end.
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! 2Tall declares it is everybody else's fault!You can count on him to try to protect trump and blame the 'evil liberals' at every turn. This technique hasn't been working as well lately.
The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.
See posts on this way back somewhere...
Don't make yourself look rediculous 2Tall..
These and followup preparation docs and programs from Obama led to the US being ranked highest in regard to 2019 Global Health Security Index. Even though the US had the highest score, 83.5 (followed by UK at 77.9), the score was far from perfect. Oddly, the top two countries were among the hardest hit by COVID-19.
So something other than playbooks led to getting off to the bad start. I assert the bad start resulted from limited testing, limited PPE supplies, and limited resources at the state and local levels to perform contact tracing. And these could have been prevented by following the playbook? Please show me where the playbook had critical tasks that Trump's administration ignored.
In looking back, I contend the pandemic could have been worse without the initiatives Trump has taken. The two initiatives to rapidly increase testing capabilities and to augment hospital capacities in hot spots is certainly commendable. I am most impressed by the initiative to develop and supply a vaccine on a fast track. So take off your hypercritical, curmudgeon blinders and add some insight.
Taking into account that a PHEIC and PHE were issued end of January, lets see what the leader of our country was telling the public after 31 January
Enough insight to chew on for the moment?
Yet in your mind it is only Trump's fault. Not only that, you continue to rationalize such with weak evidence when the facts show otherwise.
This should not be about politics, but about stopping the spread of the virus.
I have no opinions of my own and I Hate America.
I still think that the Russians helped get Trump elected
and I haven't made one sensible comment or post in weeks.
Fathertime!
In great part, his 'ban' was preempted by stewardesses, pilots and unions.
We will, however, find out some time in the future.
He should have done it by the playbook, appointed a qualified, knowledgable spokesperson and allowed the host of governmental organizations to do their job according to their op plans for such events.
Instead, he decided to take centre stage and as usual disseminate conflicting information and misinformation to be digested by the public and those whom he should lead. It shows his mistrust, inability to delegate and self-serving nature we see over and over again.
We have known for many months how to stop the spread of the virus.
Few here will admit we screwed it up and continue to do so.
The virus is mutating. It's much more infectious than the first that jumped to humans. That means there's reduced chance of this virus dying out on it's own. Let's hope the next mutation doesn't make it more lethal. The more humans(petri dishes) the virus infects, the greater the chances for mutating again.I wasn't a big buyer into all the bologna about the virus dying out during the summer. Some have said the virus has been mutating into something less deadly...one thought is if it can mutate into something less deadly it can probably mutate into something more deadly as well.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/world-s-dominant-strain-of-coronavirus-is-10-times-more-infectious-than-the-one-that-jumped-to-humans-in-china-because-it-mutated-so-its-vital-spike-protein-doesn-t-snap-as-often-in-the-body-scientists-say/ar-BB167e7l?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Let's hope the next mutation doesn't make it more lethal. The more humans(petri dishes) the virus infects, the greater the chances for mutating again.
With the high number of infections in the US, a new version may well be referred to as the US Coronavirus... - and rightly so as we allowed it to happen willingly.Now we can stamp it the USA coronavirus! At least we made something, we should put our little Made in the USA sticker on all the dead bodies.
I wasn't a big buyer into all the bologna about the virus dying out during the summer.
Fathertime!
You've made no predictions, you just say you didYou are a little angry that I haven't made any ridiculous predictions as you have. I don't see any point in making predictions about the virus. I'd rather mock some of your ridiculous predictions because they are so mock worthy.
or pontificate as if you did after the fact. There is
a thread for making predictions, you've made none
there as well.
Before crowing, give us please progress reports on Italy's tourist revenues.
If Italy's tourist season this summer is equivalent to 2019 with a continuing low number of new cases, I will admit that America screwed it up.
In order to support tourism-related hospitality industry, the government is offering vacation bonuses for lower-income folks (40K per year and under). 500 EUR for a family of 3, 300 EUR for a family of two and 150 for singles. 80% is a direct discount used when booking and the remaining 20% can be deducted from taxes. We'll see how that helps out.
Even if Italy gets infections to near zero, it only takes a few months before some region will be under lockdown again due to the speed this virus spreads. Certain measures of social distancing will slow it down but if not enough, it will spread as we can see in America as people go back to work or protest.
Italy and most other EU countries fought hard for the progress made so far,
This article came out an hour ago and it says a study believes America's death count due to COVID-19 is 28% higher than official count based on using historical records of what death count should be.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates/ar-BB16dD2D?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Possible. Lockdown is stressful to many people, and stress can cause death without actually being infected with COVID-19.
This article came out an hour ago and it says a study believes America's death count due to COVID-19 is 28% higher than official count based on using historical records of what death count should be.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates/ar-BB16dD2D?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
ra·tion·al·i·za·tion
/ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)ləˈzāSH(ə)n,ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)līˈzāSH(ə)n/
1.
the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.
"most people are prone to self-deceptive rationalization"
Our unjustified sense of 'exceptionalism' is killing us.
I guess you two did not get the gist of my post.
No worries though. In a few weeks, my point will be very clear.
So far the death rate has not kept pace with new cases. There is of course a lag period, so the next 10 days will be telling.
28% higher due to COVID-19 but not because of death caused by the infection. There was a universal stoppage of elective surgery or scheduled clinical treatment. The effect is pretty widespread. People are delayed getting their normal clinical attention and treatment because of the virus lockdown. Rise in cancer deaths, strikes, heart attacks, etc.
The study was for virus related infections. I'm sure another study will be pertaining to suicides and other non virus related deaths due to the actions we've taken on the virus. But in the CDC website, deaths are drastically falling because we're saving a lot of lives based on our changes in behavior. We are driving less and we aren't catching other infectious diseases as often due to social distancing. There is less physical activity so less chance to get injured, killed or catch HIV. Staying at home too much will hurt the economy so the government must find a balance of going back to work without letting the virus get out of control.
We're both in the same industry, BillyB and while I'll be lacking in understanding every development in your area, I can tell you ours is fairly robust, and even the housing (new home) sector is starting to perk up. If they actually do push the infrastructure funding like they repeatedly mumbled about - you can bet a loud screech when the rubber hits the road.
Additionally, DOH does not provide the date of death for any case. The chart on the now-disabled DOH dshboard showing resident deaths by date is just that - residents only by date of death for cases where a death certificate has been received and the date of death verified by the state.
The CDC warns "delays in reporting a person's death to the state can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death."
According to internal DOH records, deaths reported by DOH were reported an average 7-21 days after the COVID-19 positive person died (date from March through mid-June, with some deaths reported as late as 44 days after death.
On June 22, 2020, Governor DeSantis announced that the Agency for Health Care Administration (AHCA) would no longer report the number of occupied ICU beds as it had previously been done.
AHCA provides the hospital data you see on this page.
Consequently, the number of available beds shown here likely includes beds that are currently occupied, but that the DeSantis administration has determined by an un-disclosed metric could be made available by removing the person occupying it.
Every morning, take a deep breath and hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you complete it successfully without coughing, without discomfort, stiffness or tightness, etc., it proves there is no fibrosis in the lungs, basically indicating no infection.
Total nonsense, Phil ..debunked long ago ((
Put on your best tin foil hat before reading the article below.
I heard a fascinating report this morning. Probably one of the very few 'earlier' report that remained 'constant' in the sea of all the 'expert' speculations they constantly fed all of us from the very beginning - he likelihood of the total infection rate is in the range of 10x the known cases.
New infection cases report says about 90% increase the past 2-3 weeks. Death rate however declined to 19%. 'Lag' these numbers as much as anyone can, but I methinks let's get our lives back to normal because I think there's enough empirical evidence this virus may be highly infectious, it is hardly virulent. Mostly no different than the flu. The virus is deadly for the most vulnerable amongst us - the very old and the very 'sick'.
There's going to be a constant battle between media and scientists to put out studies that fit their narrative. NY State lost 1 out of every 600 citizens in a matter of months. The ratio is much worse in NYC. It would have been much worse if NY didn't take action. While NY State loses 4500 people per year to influenza, they've lost 32,000 people to the coronavirus in a matter of months. For some survivors of the coronavirus, they will have temporary or permanent organ damage.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/newyork/newyork.htm
Sure, simply because the seasonal 'flu' is pretty much with us every year whereas COVID-19 was (is) fairly new and so many things affected the 'death count'. There are also mixed reports of death with COVID, death due to COVID and death because of the infection, These were all counted under the impact of the virus.
We don't get these type of accounting with the flu for the simple reason it is no longer a novel (unknown) virus.
Two very important caveats are, with the flu, we pretty much have a vaccine, while not 100% it is still a good preventative treatment. Moreover, COVID-19 is MOSTLY lethal to the very old and the very sick. The flu is not very selective. Everyone/anyone is fair game.
do you think they'll go as far as putting fluorine in the water?
gosh, I hope not!!!
look what Corona has done to us nationally in just 6 months starting from ZERO cases
now imagine the next 6 months starting from 3,000,000+ cases
in Texas and Florida one out of five being tested is NOW coming back positive
a 500% increase from 2 weeks ago!!
Moreover, COVID-19 is MOSTLY lethal to the very old and the very sick. The flu is not very selective. Everyone/anyone is fair game.
"Are you sick or dead?"
mentally, yes...
metaphorically, yes...
but I have been on snapchat with 3 sick people...
who all tell the SAME story
that it is like getting a bad flu
none of the three have had to go to the hospital YET...
I'm thinking that when I get this, I'm probably gonna survive it
but for two weeks, it's really gonna suck being sick with this
Which 'bad flu' leaves many of those who survived with life changing issues ( respiratory and more)?
Mr Mistake..
Nice try at obfuscation re yet another one if your inept 'contributions' to this discussion..
You have suggested efficacy of a useless drug to combat COVID-19 and want to suggest those surviving it have no issues..
This is no 'flu'..
Only I'll informed people and 'Trampu' are suggesting otherwise.
Meanwhile, infections are definitely on the speedy rise
...and deaths starting to go up as well.
I don't see a coherent national plan to address the situation...
A reminder to expats: unlike the European models, public health is largely a state government function. For example, opening schools is a state/local decision. Nevertheless, the Feds are very busy: pushing a fast track plan developing vaccines, augmenting resources, analyzing data, etc.
Meanwhile, infections are definitely on the speedy rise and deaths starting to go up as well.
I don't see a coherent national plan to address the situation, nor how schools will handle students, nor what plans are is for handling the upcoming flu season on top of the growing COVID hospital load.
Gator,
Here, 'states', whether they be countries within EU or regions within EU countries, have same/similar responsibilities and independence as US states do. National and local governments do however see this as a national and EU issue thus work closely together, especially since this virus does not respect geographical and political borders.
Since you mention it, our lack of coherence is due to a lack of leadership, sort of like each state running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Heck even at the very top there seems to more contradiction within than a real plan. Or plans are ignored, criticized by our leader and watered down.
Obviously, the sign that says 'The buck stops here' is no longer present in the Oval Office, replaced with one that states "Not My Problem".
And BTW, expats do care, expats have a voice and expats do vote.
So is that the reason why the EU completely and blatantly ignored Italy's plea for help during its dire COVID crisis where they actually played god on who dies and lives? *Lack of cohesion and strong leadership* Yup, I suppose you would know about 'the buck stops here, yadayada' as you lived it... Wonderful system indeed.
Despite your critique, some even warranted, leaders did manage to get their act together, beating the virus down to manageable levels and keeping them there, while back home the cat was let out of the bag and is wreaking havoc again. We let it slip away.
Re-reading your post GQ, I also see you only shoot the messenger and do not counter with any facts to defend the actions of our leaders as being prudent, effective or worthwhile.
Does that mean all is hunky-dory with our domestic approach to resolving this virus crisis? If so, please do illuminate with a few facts as I am not seeing it at all.
Where is the proof in the pudding?
Au contraire, the number of deaths/day in Florida continues to decline. I suggest the following reasons:
1. The newly infected are younger than seen in April, many being asymptomatic.
2. Therapies have improved.
3. Mutation of the virus to more infectious yet less virulent strain.
Gator,
Not for the first time, I wonder at claims you make when the data shows you are ' au contraire'
SO....is Google lying to you or me(((?
I don't know your sources
If you read my posts carefully, something you rarely do, I implied the jury is still out regarding the trajectory of the infection. And sure enough, deaths ticked up today and yesterday.
Au contraire, the number of deaths/day in Florida continues to decline.
The first screen "Florida Cases" shows bar chart of deaths in lower right. Notice the use of the term "resident." Perhaps this explains the difference. Perhaps there are other explanations.
To many of us, that 'reality' is painting a far more telling picture than any the MSM primetime 'boogeyman' campfire stories can ever inspire.Although the virus is probably pretty severe and deadly for many, I take very few precautions. Now if some idiot is coughing around me I am getting the hell away from him, and I like a little social distance anyway so that isn't much of change.
Yes, you do.. unless YOU posted without reading my putting Beel right , too, data above ..
Fine print:
The Deaths by Day chart shows the total number of Florida residents with confirmed COVID-19 that died on each calendar day (12:00 AM - 11:59 PM). Death data often has significant delays in reporting, so data within the past two weeks will be updated frequently.
Additionally, DOH does not provide the date of death for any case. The chart on the now-disabled DOH dshboard showing resident deaths by date is just that - residents only by date of death for cases where a death certificate has been received and the date of death verified by the state.
The CDC warns "delays in reporting a person's death to the state can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death."
According to internal DOH records, deaths reported by DOH were reported an average 7-21 days after the COVID-19 positive person died (date from March through mid-June, with some deaths reported as late as 44 days after death.
Here, 'states', whether they be countries within EU or regions within EU countries, have same/similar responsibilities and independence as US states do. National and local governments do however see this as a national and EU issue thus work closely together, especially since this virus does not respect geographical and political borders.
...sort of like each state running around like a chicken with its head cut off.
Obviously, the sign that says 'The buck stops here' is no longer present in the Oval Office, replaced with one that states "Not My Problem".
I used official Florida DOH stats. You don't know the sources from which your source derived its data.
So we have "official" (me) and "unknown" (you).
Being a pandemic it is more than the EU, more than the US, and the worse is still to come for many countries. Maybe we should work with the WHO, an apolitical, functional WHO!!!!
Most governors should take exception to your simile. However, even after 3-4 months of managing this pandemic, we still have critical problems at the state and local levels.
For example, a huge limitation in Florida is contact tracing. News reports suggest a significant number of positive test cases have never been called by an agency to determine with whom the infected individuals have encountered in travel, work, family, etc. The Miami-Dade County region is the most infected area in Florida, and has a team of 200 contact tracers. The Mayor wants an "Army" and the Governor disputes the need for an "Army."
Trump does not say such nor act that way. If you have evidence he did, please.....
The pandemic is everyone's problem, individuals more than government, whether federal, state, or local.
If Trump has all the authority and power you keep ascribing to him, we would never have a sanctuary city, or a CHAZ, or a debate about how to open schools. or..... The battles are fought locally. The Feds are needed for augmenting resources, speeding the R&D of vaccines and therapies, monitoring and consultation.
Then when your 'official' info catches up with mine, as it assuredly will .. I wonder what your 'excuse' will be ?
In the meantime, new cases went up and the deaths will surely follow ((
Notably, again, filled ER's, hospitals and ICU's.
Will we miss it again, even during the many months it will take to go through the logistics of vaccinating the nation whenever a good vaccine is available?
Which is exactly why a leader and not blamer is needed.
In a situation where actions in one state affect others, there is no room for disparity. But alas, even the reopening plan proposed by CDC and the administration was bashed by no other than our president insisting states should 'liberate' themselves. Liberate from what I ask... to flaunt reopening guidelines? Ditto recently for school reopening guidelines with the CDC finally taking a firm stand despite criticism by our president. 'Do as I say and not as I do' comes to mind. I'm quite sure all this is helping our nation work in a cohesive fashion to battle the virus :/
The role of a federal government is to lead the charge when a crisis goes beyond state borders. If it were otherwise, each state would have its own state CDC instead of one delegated to serve the nation.
Worth the 17 minutes it takes to watch. Of course those devoid of common sense just won't "get it". Obviously, common sense isn't so common these days but for those that can't grasp it, carry on and blame Trump
WOW FP...too much logic and sense in that video. I can' stand it. Besides, in a leaderless country such as ours, facts can only be found in our primetime mainstream media. These types of information just cannot aired in the truth teller like CNN. Can you imagine any story that does not imply that all the devastation were witnessing is NOT because of Trump?!? That's blasphemy!
Everything IS indubitably his FAULT!!!! Not Anthony Faulty!
I mean just this morning, I found out CNN already have a team of panicking reporters running around all over Florida reporting live how that state is desperately clinging on for any vestige of hope - my GAWD! Florida is DOOMED!
If you were honorable, I would offer a wager, yet you have proven in spades your dishonor.
Here we go,
1/ You posted data ( again ) that isn't supporting what's happening, now, in YOUR state.
2/ You bring up a wager you LOST and suggest *I'm* 'untrustworthy .. FACT .. 'Trampu' inherited a recovering economy and I PROVED to you that other nation's economies reflected the US recovery ...
This is something that needs developing.
http://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-10/injection-prevent-coronavirus-feds-manufacturers-fail-to-act
Hopefully it could prevent doctors and nurses treating covid patients from becoming infected.
Hospitals in Florida have been near capacity not because of COVID but because of performing the backlog of many elective procedures delayed during the lockdown. Reports suggest 10-40% of the current patients are COVID.
The issue is cost. Miami-Dade Mayor says 200 is not enough; he wants an "army." Extrapolate that to the nation, and when the pandemic ends, what
I suggested earlier that as one part of the NEXT national preparation plan, each state should train a cadre of current state employees in contact tracing, to be deployed temporarily during the next lockdown.
1. Trump spoke the truth, and Trump provided Cuomo ventilators, new hospitals, etc.
2. There is more to blame than in this clip; in fact, everyone is at blame.
3. Obama never blamed others?
Rather than belaboring facts and perceptions, let's summarize by saying I disagree with your partisan view. The pandemic is not over. The 2021 President will surely order a bipartisan commission to investigate the COVID pandemic.
Given CDC has only 10,000 employees, it can not take on the role of BIG GOVERNMENT. In comparison, FL DOH has 17,000 employees, with units doing what CDC would be doing. Also, as expected in a federal republic, CDC and the states have been working together. Consider examples of such:
- The CDC has an office in each of the 50 states.
- One of CDC's primary missions is monitoring spread of infectious disease, and they accomplish this largely by compiling data and statistics reported by county health departments.
- Another CDC mission is to provide scientific assistance to states when needed such as in epidemics.
The frontline soldiers in the war against COVID are the doctors, nurses and scientists treating patients. Their activities are monitored by the county health departments, extending up to the states and then to the CDC.
Gator,
We can beat about the bush all day and all night.
But yeah, disband 'em all, that will kill the virus for sure!!
My son and I thought it best not to meet, even with masks.
Let's not. Responding to a "wall of words" would necessitate a new wall. And would deteriorate to politics, thereby missing the scientific points. Worse, it could unleash more false accusations such as:
Billy,
Many nations don't need to take this step as they have been able to bring infection rates down to very low, manageable and almost 'green zone' levels, buying time until a good vaccine comes along. As soon as trials are completed they'll be able to better evaluate the need vs risks for such therapies.
The COVID situation in Florida certainly worsened, and is now being reflected in hospitals.
I have two golfing friends who are ER physicians. The burden of new COVID critical cases has required one hospital to convert some ordinary beds into ICU beds.
90% of the States have kept the infection rates low too.
It's not worth shutting down all schools and most businesses in the country over a few States experiencing outbreaks. What is Europe doing? Will they be having schools open this Fall? Beaches,. parks and bars closed? Are they shutting down a higher percentage of businesses compared to America? Only the UK is testing more people per capita than America so most of Europe doesn't have a testing advantage. What do you think Europe is doing that America isn't doing to keep infections and deaths lower?
It's not what most of Europe is doing, it is what they did, which was a much stricter form of lockdown and planned re-opening to not only level the curve but beat it down to low levels of infection that can be effectively tested, traced and isolated. Schools will be opening her with halved class sizes and 80 thousand more teachers being hired along with other physical measures. We're off to the beach tomorrow for a change, bars and restaurants are open for business with only a few prudent measures in place. Businesses are normalizing, folks are back working. Travelling between most countries is allowed and quite safe. Folks from other countries are being tested and if necessary turned away or travel from that country blocked. Been this way for a month now.
What you don't seem or want to realize is that the US, today could enjoy the same freedom and safety as is present in many other countries. The push to open early, before numbers dropped was a YUGE mistake.
Sometimes I get the feeling you have absorbed very little of the discussions here.
You guys are pretty much doing what we are doing. Don't get too comfortable with your low numbers. We all started with low numbers before they exploded.
You guys slowed down in testing while America increased testing so that will affect the perception of infections rates/R factor.
I'm fine with the direction we are going. Based off America's actions, we have lessened other illnesses and injuries that lead to death while combating the spread of COVID-19.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard
This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.
Really? Read the fine print from your source. You are seeing far less than half of what is really happening.
Sounds like you extended an invite to our invisible guest that thrives on attitudes such as yours.
We had the time and resources to handle the virus much better than ANY other country on the planet but did not. The crooked finger of blame can only be pointed at our own faults. We continue to let an invisible, brainless glob of molecules bleed us to death.
Yes moby, we could be better off today than even those countries. But we lacked the wherewithal, drive, unity and leadership needed to do so.
you extended an invite to our invisible guest that thrives on attitudes such as yours.
Billy,
I see you have determined that the virus has a brain, and beyond that can read the mind of its host, determine political leanings.
if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.
and you do realize that for a Corona virus there is no such thing as herd immunity?
when you last got a cold, did it make you immune to cold viruses?
same ting with Corona
ok...
"I concede duration is an issue"
and that "size isn't everything"
....given what we now see in the CDC's Deaths by Date of Death data, which is broken out only by week, you can make the case that the date of peak deaths (assuming a smoothed curve) falls somewhere around the end of the WE Apr 11 or beginning of WE Apr 18.
Instead, my opinion is that the US made the decision to not destroy the economy while keeping the pandemic at levels not exceeding the capacity of the healthcare system. You believe it was the wrong decision. We shall see.
You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.
Spoken like those who 1) opted to hide in their basements and 2) politically weaponized the pandemic to imposeradicalsocialist government.
[Note: I struck "radical" assuming you have not been toppling statutes of Columbus.]
If I hid in my basement, maybe I too would be vitriolic, blaming everyone in government instead of a new, highly infectious and deadly virus.
Instead, my opinion is that the US made the decision to not destroy the economy while keeping the pandemic at levels not exceeding the capacity of the healthcare system. You believe it was the wrong decision. We shall see.
You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.
Florida has about 6,244 ICU beds. Based on best available data, we estimate that 64% (4,005) are currently occupied by non-COVID patients. Of the 2,239 ICU beds remaining, we estimate 2,558 are needed by COVID cases, or >100% of available beds. This suggests hospitals cannot absorb a wave of new COVID infections without substantial surge capacity. Aggressive action urgently needed.
Per best available data, Florida has 1,600 contact tracers. With an average of 9,208 new daily cases, we estimate Florida needs 46,040 contact tracing staff to trace all new cases in 48 hours, before too many other people are infected. This means that Florida is likely able to trace only 3% of new COVID infections in 48 hours. These low levels of tracing suggest there may be an active outbreak underway in Florida, or almost no tracing capacity exists. Aggressive action urgently needed.
On average, each person in Florida with COVID is infecting 1.22 other people. As such, the total number of active cases in Florida is growing at an unsustainable rate. If this trend continues, the hospital system may become overloaded. Caution is warranted.
You have determined the virus has a brain and has prefers my attitude so I debated you based on your beliefs.
OMG, Gator ...
1/ 'Herd immunity?' Please tell us what YOU 'know' about 'herd immunity' ?...
ICU beds are running out at several hospitals in some of the state’s most-populated counties, including Miami-Dade County, Orange County, Hillsborough County and Broward County. "
The denial is strong in you ..and I can see the same thing happening in other nations...
DisneyWorld reopened ... :wallbash:
I have no idea how you can bring 'socialist' into the mix.
Closer, but not there by a long shot. Even if we consider total cases are now 10 times what was detected, we're still talking 30 million with 300 more to go
A 'stop 'n go' economy is likely worse....
More than you know about America.
Not news. I mentioned this a few days ago. As of yesterday, over 1000 ICU beds were available throughout Florida. My ER friend's hospital converted a few unused ordinary beds into ICU beds. Number of beds are an indicator, not the critical issue. Other things such as staff capacity will be more concerning.
I am concerned about how much the predominance of asymptomatic and mild cases concentrated among the younger folks will infect the seniors. There is an uptick, yet it is not keeping pace with the surge of new cases. In fact the "percent positive" of tests dropped Sunday (FL reported 15,000 new COVID cases in its 100,000 tests). This demands careful monitoring and even more careful individual behavior.
For sure the brain trust at Disney spent more time in making this decision than you did in your spontaneous, emotional reaction. If you read about their mitigation methods, your wall-bashed head would not hurt.
The left is exclaiming racism, blaming Trump for everything especially COVID. The left uses these crises to push their demands for socialist-style initiatives. If you wonder what I am talking about, ponder about "ending shareholder capitalism." Ponder about BLM goals. As the election draws nearer, political division widens. What will it be in October?
200 million is all that is needed dependent upon R0. That means 20 million tested cases. Yes, a way to go. In March-April, I "guesstimated" something like 18 months.
The world needs a vaccine and the incredibly accelerated development approach fostered by the Trump administration goes mostly unnoticed. The results will likely not be clear until after the election.
Agree. Hopefully, that will not be necessary as we learn how to "live" with it.
I have to admit I am getting very tired and bored by all the arguing about this virus. Looking at the big picture there seems to be only a few truths that are relevant and all the bullshit about charts and graphs is just finding something to knit pick about.
1. Very little was known about the virus in the beginning and while all the scientists were arguing, governments had to make decisions that were their best guesses. Some worked better than others.
I have to admit I am getting very tired and bored by all the arguing about this virus. Looking at the big picture there seems to be only a few truths that are relevant and all the bullshit about charts and graphs is just finding something to knit pick about....
Hell, look at their death per capita where they are and there you can easily see the absurdity of their 'expert assessments'. Google have that affect on so many people these days.
wearing me "Make American Great Again' cap. LMAO. I can't count the number of thumbs-up and fist pumps I got.
Remember your words (especially 'absurd') in 90 days or so, maybe far less, when deaths per capita reach the same as Italy, maybe even Spain or UK.
I haven't seen anyone here claim to be an expert.
50k means we are letting the virus win, and even flourish. That more folks will end up in the hospital and more will die that should not have to. Let's hope that doctors anywhere will not have to make some of the same decisions that were made here in the weeks and months to come. Yet is a big word.
The rest of your commentary deserves no response other than 'if it pisses you off, your problem and not mine'.
Listen, there's not even a 3rd world country that had so far resorted to picking between the sick on who gets to live or die because of lack of equipment, man.
For a guy that tells a US citizen he knows nothing about his own country, when he has family there you are on a roll of DUMB ASSertions
Italy may or may not be 'third world' to you, but it you seem to have 'missed' when the very decisions you said 'didn't happen' .. :wallbash:
From Italy March 13th 2020
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html)
‘We are making difficult choices’: Italian doctor tells of struggle against coronavirus"
WHY does GQB make stuff up when busted ?
GQB, now thoroughly busted now tries to suggest the info is 'false' :popcorn:
Panicdemic! Record Number of Coronavirus Cases Hyped —
But Deaths, Recoveries Downplayed
From Alex Berenson
And after a week of nightmare headlines about Florida, and about 70,000 new cases (aka positive tests), hospitals have a grand total of 130 more patients (~2.5%) in ICU beds statewide than last Sunday. Can’t make it up. 45 deaths today, in a state with 20 million people.
http://twitter.com/AlexBerenson
I just fail to see the correlation between COVID and socialism.
Which would totally overload the healthcare system, driving up the mortality rate.
You can't accelerate the scientific method. This warp speed thing is more about approval which lies with the USG and production.
Essentially it is a hedge bet to try and guarantee production for US needs and a place at the front of the line.
You forgot the last part : .. and 'die' with it.
There are rewards. On my recent birthday I did not stay homebound, but played golf, accomplishing the feat of shooting my age, actually 2 under my new age. If I had stayed home I would have missed this little joyful event.
. My inclination is to limit Lisa to home schooling or online learning if it is available from her school. If it's only another 6 months before a vaccine or treatment is available, then maybe that is the best solution. I just don't know.You state you are in the vulnerable category, probably due to advanced age and one or more the other risk factors. Since you are still contemplating a decision, I'll chime in. I'd consider letting your wife/daughter live their life normally, even if it means without you temporary. They are young and presumably healthy, and IF the state starts school up in the fall, then the child should be permitted to go. People have undergone greater hardships than a temporary separation. An apartment close by could be an option for you.
Nor do I. This is the reasoning: minorities are experiencing a greater percentage of new cases than their population numbers would suggest. The left blames social and economic inequality.
Any correlation about BLM rallies with no black people attending? It happens.
Hasn't happened yet. Nevertheless, I think it better not to push it.
You can not give Trump a compliment even when he does something clearly beneficial to mankind.
Yes, review and approval are accelerated, yet the real speed comes from Uncle Sam paying the drug companies billions to accelerate development, to include starting production before Phase 3 trials are started. We have several promising vaccines in such a pipeline. There are issues and concerns that would compel private investments to slow, yet the US government pushes forward.
So wait for China? You think China is benevolent?
CDC continues to learn more about the behavior of the coronavirus and now say 40% of the people infected are asymptomatic. 80% of teens and preteens are asymptomatic
As far as catching it, anyone can. My guess urban living has a major role with less social distancing.
Italy, Spain, NY to name a few where healthcare resources were extremely stressed.
Was there anything derogatory in my post?
I have not found much information on is how development can be sped up other than regulatory actions regarding ongoing trial processes.
Who mentioned China?
I thought it well known that China is developing vaccine(s). And the rumor says they are ahead of us. There are vaccine development programs other than China and the American-Euro pharma companies, yet I don't believe these are progressing as well.
High population density and multi-generational habitation.
Most of my comments are based on the situation in Florida, my home state, which recently set the US record for the highest number of daily cases. I see news reports that krimster's Houston is perilously close to being overwhelmed. US military medical staff have been deployed to Texas to help.
It was not your usual offendinista speak; however, the initiative is deserving of praise. The fast track streamlining/funding is not limited to American pharmaceutical companies, but given to joint ventures with European entities. Are EU countries also funding to the same level?
Pharma companies funding their own research tend to be deliberate, proceeding at a cautious pace to avoid wasting money. Pharma companies can now use Uncle Sam dollars to test larger trial populations and employ more staff to monitoring and analysis.
I thought it well known that China is developing vaccine(s). And the rumor says they are ahead of us. There are vaccine development programs other than China and the American-Euro pharma companies, yet I don't believe these are progressing as well.
The hallmark of a vaccine is one that can actually mimic natural infection and induce the kind of response that you would get with natural infection. And it looks like, at least in this limited, small number of individuals, that is exactly what’s happening. The data really look quite good. There were no serious adverse events.
A new study of people who have caught and recovered from coronavirus raises the prospect that immunity to the virus may be short-lived.
VACCINE NEWS
Moderna, one of the pharma companies in Trump's fast track vaccine program has released promising news about its Phase 2 trials. It had earlier released results for 8 of the 45 participants. Now all 45 have been reported, and all participants produced neutralizing antibodies. The level of antibodies is 2-4x greater than seen in patients who had recovered from COVID. The antibodies are responsible for blocking the virus from entering target cells.
The testing required two doses. The first dose produced antibodies at small levels. A second dose increased levels tenfold. Side affects were considered tolerable, similar to early stage of flu, e. g. fever, fatigue.
This tells me this vaccine can be dangerous in large amounts.
Smaller doses may be acceptable but more testing needed.
So!? If true, need booster shots.
Next question.
?? Best read up before proving you've not got a clue, there, Phil (
You need vaccine to be working, first .. :popcorn:
Take a deep breath and re-read your little BBC article which talks about six other other human coronaviruses. It says for two dangerous coronaviruses, antibodies have been detected years after the infection and recovery. For the four milder coronaviruses (common cold symptoms), "some patients could be re-infected within a year."
Phil, once again, you cannot quit when behind
1/ There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating
There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating
Phil, once again, you cannot quit when behind
1/ There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating
If impossible why would many of the world's pharmaceutical companies spend billions endeavoring to develop a vaccine. Could it be they understand medical science better than you? Is it possible that these hundreds of PhDs and MDs have more of a clue than a weakly educated drifter from Ireland.
2/ Deal with your ignorance re 'herd immunity', please .. There's no such thing..
I stand with the medical science community, such as the Mayo Clinic:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
Does one scientific organization support your lame thought?
3/ I admire your Dr Fauci.. Shame your President and some other 'patriots' can't
Trump and Fauci are fine. Sometimes Fauci conflicts with a member of Trump's staff. That happens when people with different backgrounds and goals deliberate an issue.
Let's talk about your posting style,....
Let's talk about your posting style, using this as an example:
Your responses were: immediate, no thought, unconnected, false, and seemingly emotional.....you suffer from anxiety, don't you. It must become excruciatingly at times, especially to others.
Why bother? These guys have nothing to do all day but Google. They Google so much they actually believe they've become omniscient. They even start telling you what's happening in your own backyard from half a world away. In every subject too, every thread, with literally against every poster and in multiple forums...
It's really funny to see after a while...
There are numerous strains of SARS-COV2 out there but the mutations aren't big enough to worry yet.
The experts believe the vaccines that are being developed will be able to take on all current strains. If we can eliminate this virus off the planet earth, we won't need to worry about a big enough mutation that current vaccines won't work against.
.
And you base this 'bizarre factoid' on who's findings ?
Could you please show us where you Googled THAT ? ..
It's easy to Google this info but apparently you failed.
Here's an article that should explain why you're being ignorant and overly optimistic
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine
(http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine)
They even start telling you what's happening in your own backyard from half a world away.
Is interesting that much the dire situation we face today as a nation is brought about by ignoring and not learning from what happened half a world away, what worked and what did not.
Some call it 'denial', I call it 'terminal uniqueness'.
There's nothing in that article that disagrees with anything I've ever said.
BACK TO DISCUSSION OF VACCINES
Post your ideas and thoughts in a constructive manner and leave it at that is my suggestion.
You mean like your exchange with GQB ? ;)
Of course I'm nowhere near perfect but have my responses been insulting or otherwise uncouth or vindictive? I do consciously try to keep my replies somwhat within 'normal' bounds.
*I* thought the exchange with GQB was out of order, but not on your side.
..and he shouldn't get so butt-hurt about being corrected.
The most important discussion regarding vaccines is : "What do we do until a vaccine is declared effective, safe and has been distributed?"
Obviously the current situation can't continue as is or?
I admit when I am wrong, something impossible for you to do.1
Yesterday's three examples:
1. You claimed "herd immunity" is a myth. I gave you a renown medical science source confirming the concept (Mayo Clinic); you gave me none to support your lame thinking. Herd immunity is real; the problem with herd immunity is getting there (60-70% infection levels). Where is your scientific source? You don't have one, do you.
2. Regarding your comment about Trump and Fauci - wrong. You should not depend on a biased news media constantly criticizing Trump. Fauci remains a key part of the White House team. Trump chastised the offender on his staff, even though that staff person alerted Trump to the pandemic before Fauci, prompting Trump's China traveler restrictions. And Fauci misled the nation about masks. And the issue regarding Fauci and HCQ is now in appellate court.
3. Regarding your comment stating a COVID-19 vaccine will not be developed. As of today you are correct, yet you ignore the absolutely huge, warp speed development program now underway. I believe more than one effective vaccination protocol are coming. Yes, my philosophy is "the sun will come out tomorrow." Yes, I have problems with those who spout "life is a shit sandwich, and then you die."
Masks ? Unless they are respirators and / or one wears a face visor .. pretty much a gesture .. given the virus molecules are far smaller that the coverings.
The most important discussion regarding vaccines is : "What do we do until a vaccine is declared effective, safe and has been distributed?"
Obviously the current situation can't continue as is or?
….But continue on telling people the wearing of masks is simply a gesture.
BACK TO DISCUSSION OF VACCINES
Sighs, I have offered lay man's explanations - several times to explain the notion of 'herd immunity'
Watching the 'brown-nosing' of Trampu's' aides re attempting to diss Dr Fauci is stomach churning
I'm not 'glass half full', Phil .. just working with smarter people in the medical field on a daily basis ...
To cap it all .. you post a message you told us was 'gone' ( I had hacked it and apologised for same ) where YOU suggest I accepted your 'criteria' for a bet... *I* accepted on the basis of proving the UK and US economies were in total parallel recoveries - irrespective of leader / political party ..
Returning to my position about how the economy has improved under Trump. Let's compare the following economic measures for two periods: the four quarters before Trump (4Q2015-3Q2016) vs. the post-Trump period (1Q2017-2Q2019).
This will take some work. Are you game? I agree to eat crow if these three all-important haven't improved since the Obama period. If wrong, will you return to the board with black feathers dangling from your lips?
Returning to my position about how the economy has improved under Trump. Let's compare the following economic measures for two periods: the four quarters before Trump (4Q2015-3Q2016) vs. the post-Trump period (1Q2017-2Q2019).
GDP expansion rate
Job creation rate (or unemployment rate)
Inflation rate
This will take some work. Are you game? I agree to eat crow if these three all-important haven't improved since the Obama period. If wrong, will you return to the board with black feathers dangling from your lips?
I am game.. please post the graphs :)
Dear Gator,
Just to remind you ..I accepted the challenge.. and await graphs to 'support' your stance..
The left-leaning Guardian!!!! Why stop there. - CNN should have some juicier accusations.
To make it clear, the White House has been and will continue to be an energetic place. Through it all,, Fauci has remained, and he continues to participate as a valuable member of the COVID team.
I’ve actually paid money to get “The Vektor Vaccine” in Russia in September...
and have had extensive medical consultation about it...
That's the critical issue.
I feel we have no choice but to keep the economy partially open and take measures to keep infections at an endemic level, albeit high, yet short of exponential growth.
Our people will not accept total lockdown. And our nation's capabilities in tracing and isolating of the vulnerable/infected are not effective in eliminating the spread.
Even testing is problematic. Info now comes out that shows the test statistics compiled by Florida are over-reporting "positives" and under-reporting "negatives." An investigation is underway.
:ROFL:
That's actually a leap from the resident Googler who declared wearing N95 mask will choke a person after 30-minutes of use 'based' on information he gathered from the 'professional medical group' he supposedly hangs around with EVERYDAY.
LMAO!
msmob is the perfect of example of what happens to people who rely on surface information from Googled sources. There's a very obvious shallow level of comprehension they cannot go beyond. More times than not, they advance an 'opinion article' from a politically-driven media rag like the Guardian as the depth of their 'expertise' on any given subject.
His real life insecurities is always clearly displayed in his each and every post.
Have we been exceeding the 52,000 deaths a week? I read 940 died yesterday in the USA.
America is expected to have 52,000 deaths per week from all causes this time of year. As long as we aren't exceeding that, we will be fine.
Are we adequately addressing it? You do realize that as it stands today, a doubling of our deaths to a quarter million is almost certain, maybe even low?
We can't 'keep infections at an endemic level' if they are on the rise as we may already be in rapid exponential growth and not know about it until down the road. Considering this isn't it prudent to react while we can?
And locking down is our only true defense at this point. Unfortunately we don't want to realize it. The house is burning and we're still trying to figure out whether to call the fire dept?
Testing has always been problematic it seems. Why after so many months are we not able to get a grip on this vitally important aspect of managing the crisis while touting 'The most, the best, the most accurate in the world!'? Ditto with reporting of deaths. Why all the confusion?
Gotta admit Gator, we're rapidly spiralling out of control, if not 'there' already.
Doubling is still well under a million. Yes it sounds crass, given we are talking about the tragedy of real lives lost.
However, it is an acceptable loss in my book given the options.
I leave it to CDC, et al to decide if the hospitals can manage the wave. Houston is now a critical case. Remember NYC in March-April? The Feds delivered a hospital ship and converted a convention center into a mammoth hospital for overflow. The two went unused.
The house has pockets of smoke, and yes there is damage. Fire fighters have been deployed. Federal oversight is engaged. Inhabitants need not vacate the house, yet need to avoid the burning areas and take precautions if they must venture there.
An investigation is underway in Florida. The reasons likely are many. I believe none smack of incompetence, and all are problems with the rapid ramping up. How well did the Obamacare website work when it opened, and that was just a website?
Reporting: Getting results is still taking three days in FL. Too long IMO.
Compiling: Tests are complied from hundreds of labs who presumably are working seven days per week. However, FL's daily reports vary from 50,000 to 100,000 tests when I would assume the actual daily number is fairly constant with a trend upward. Something is amiss.
Double counting: Some patients are being tested 5-6 times, and each is reported as a "positive case."
Under reporting: Some labs did not report negative tests.
Everything else: Use your imagination. That's just testing, and you mentioned how classification and reporting of deaths is also suspect. I hope politics is not a factor.
The number of reported positive cases is an overstatement of the situation, yet it is becoming worse. Hospitalizations and deaths are showing an upward trend in my home Florida. IMO "out of control" is an overstatement, yet I venture out less. My son more in his work (real estate appraiser in high demand market given refi's at 3% for 30-yr fixed). It requires him to enter existing homes for inspection, so he and I don't meet. If I see a younger person without a mask, I run away.
Have we been exceeding the 52,000 deaths a week? I read 940 died yesterday in the USA.
In the scheme of things some might say 52,000 deaths or 59,000 deaths, a week, what is the difference? Of course the numbers could wind up being much greater still.
Fathertime!
I thought CDC was no longer receiving hospital data... or?
CDC won't control the data but they will still post it.
http://www.livescience.com/hhs-will-bypass-cdc-covid19-data-collection.html
America should be averaging 52,000 deaths from all causes at this time of year. We are averaging less than that even with COVID-19 raging. Why? Because we changed our behavior by being less active, engaging in social distancing and taking extra steps protecting the elderly, we have less deaths from injuries and other illnesses. Save this chart below.Hola! I viewed the chart, and unless I'm mistaken the US is averaging much more than the baseline death rate for the past couple months. In the last week it seemed to settle down but then I read that it takes a couple weeks to update so that number will also do nothing but rise. Based on this particular chart, it seems the overall death rate has increased in recent months.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard
Hola! I viewed the chart, and unless I'm mistaken the US is averaging much more than the baseline death rate for the past couple months. In the last week it seemed to settle down but then I read that it takes a couple weeks to update so that number will also do nothing but rise. Based on this particular chart, it seems the overall death rate has increased in recent months.
Fathertime!
As much as you want to try, you can't rationalize Covid away.
GQB,
Why do you repeat fibs you've already been busted for ? I NEVER said "you'd 'choke'" .. I DID say you might suffer breathing difficulties with prolonged use and published an article by a US doctor that demonstrated that I was wrong ..She wore hers all day ...not comfortable, but oxygen levels remained fine. ..
This is now the THIRD time I've corrected your lying... I suspect this may be because you're butt-hurt re the efficacy of HCQ re treating COVID-19 patients... FAIL
Your constant need to make stuff up to 'support' your 'contentions' is telling
The Guardian is not a 'rag'.. It has a left of centre editorial, but carries stories that embarrass the left, too.
For the average resident in Italy, chances of getting infected today are 1 in a quarter million. The US 1 in 5000.
Now tell me which country is having to rationalize as justification for the way they are handling Covid.LMAO. Since it's YOU who is asking, I'll guess...I think you'll say, USA. Why? Let me guess again, because it's Trump's fault and we're leaderless. Am I at least warm?
Unless you're senile, after BillyB stated his wife was going shopping and took N95 mask with her, you posted a caution to stop her because she’d choke after 30 minutes of use. The US doctor article you posted was more recent. These two postings are almost 2 months apart. Ask BillyB if you are senile, you slime.
Lie No. 2
Just because you ignore what’s being given to you doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Here it is again.
Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows (http://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study)
Like I said: Contact page baby! http://www.henryford.com/about/contact (http://www.henryford.com/about/contact)
Challenge them worm! Tell them you hang out with the greatest medical minds and Google. Tell them their report is bogus...you're not impressing anyone here.
:ROFL:
Yeah, did you also know CNN's slogan is *The Most Trusted Name in News*? Like CNN, the Guardian is a rag...
According to you then, Italy will, or may, suffer another 239 infections, or less, from today forward. From a novel virus with no known cure at this time, I just want to say, WOW! How'd you know for certain? Let me guess, CNN?
Man...if BS was a rock, this one is so huge it'll cast shadow before impact. You gotta love the internet, man. Absolutely amazing things you see.
LMAO. Since it's YOU who is asking, I'll guess...I think you'll say, USA. Why? Let me guess again, because it's Trump's fault and we're leaderless. Am I at least warm?
Busted for repeatedly being a FIBBER... #1
You and Billy, don't know how to use the search facility ?
Evidence of putting words in other's mouth ..exhibit A: You use BillyB's quote .. not my words
I suppose, you'll believe I 'hacked' the forum rather than admit your FAIL
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658)
Searching under choking or choke and mask will find only BillyB and your posts .....
You have already had several posters point out that the OVERWHELMING feeling in the clinical trial community is that HCQ DOES NOT offer any benefit in fighting COVID-19... At least those really needing it can find it easier now and the price fell back :popcorn:
I see further education is necessary..
'Rag' derives from 'Scandal Rag' .. A Tabloid newspaper that sensationalises news. More interested in People gossip that actual News..
'Thanks' but as you've just proved ..with your 'evidence' ... you're not the most discerning reader ..
Last few months is when NY and surrounding States were on fire. But the current trend is going downward and we are now below the threshold for what should be a normal amount of deaths.The Chart is showing more deaths than normal, except for the past 2 weeks, but it is stated the chart takes between 1-8 weeks to update all deaths.
GQ, Again, your thought processes get blinded by CNN and whatever else bothers you. If you would have considered my post as one of those word problems in elementary school, you would have noted the frequent use of the word 'today'. Nothing in my post is based on what was seen/read on CNN aside from the daily number of infections and deaths which are reported on just about every TV news channel including FOX. Maybe even your blinding fav ONN. Use your noggin dude.
to·day
/təˈdā/
adverb
on or in the course of this present day.
There... that should help you figure it out.
Busted for repeatedly being a FIBBER... #1
Proof is in the pudding GQ.
Positivity rate Italy yesterday .5% what's ours? Italy plugs along at steady 50k tests per day which is a quite reasonable 'maintenance' rate to detect and put out any little flareups. Testing can always be increased if the positivity rate justifies doing so.
You can pick any measure you want GQ, we're getting out butt kicked in the US.
Defending the indefensible is a slippery slope. Better just to accept we're either not up to the task or simply don't care. Which will it be?
Searching under choking or choke and mask will find only BillyB and your posts ..... :cluebat:
Oh no worries GQ, the exact same argument you pose in defense applies to the US as well, and is simply another discourse fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam
).
Fortunately, science dictates otherwise as well as low numbers in hospital ICU's and mortuaries in Italy. Or does your hypothesis include Italians having acquired immunity to the effects of the virus or that the number of tests performed is not statistically relevant?
Defending the indefensible is a slippery slope. Better just to accept we're either not up to the task or simply don't care. Which will it be?
The Chart is showing more deaths than normal, except for the past 2 weeks, but it is stated the chart takes between 1-8 weeks to update all deaths.
It also seems that prior to the epidemic the death rate was below the 52,000 for a long time.
All in all, at least in the recent months it does appear that there are more deaths overall than the historical average, which shouldn't be surprising.
Fathertime!
You are drunk with anxiety and despair regarding anything to do under this current administration, I get that. Best plan how life will be like for you if come November things go wayward to that which you aspire it to be these last 4 years. Seeing you behave the way you do, may you find sanity and the least resistant way forward if things don't go your way again.
BC, Italy's CFR of 14% is more than twice Florida's hospitalization rate. My point is that comparing Italy with the US is apples and oranges.
Regardless, I am envious of "your" low number of daily new cases.
Do let me know if you find any faults in logic. I'm capable of learning from my mistakes.
I agree hospitalizations are important, but then again there are no comparable standards as to when a patient is admitted or not.
In cases like Italy and NY, I believe a large portion of deaths were due to patients waiting too long to be admitted due to stresses on healthcare assets. Both have very similar results.
Germany seemed to find that 'sweet spot' AND had the critical care capacity along with preventing infections by having folks not line up and fill ER's, instead being visited first at home by full fledged doctors who determined when and where patients should be admitted.
As for comparative analysis, deaths are about the best we have. IIRC you were the first to bring up deaths first as the number to be watched along with hospitalization. I admit being a bit sceptic that deaths were a good measure back then, trying to rationalize the high death rate in Italy with other factors such as age demographics, but I do see today that I waswrong and you were quite correctsurprised.
Six months into the pandemic, we still don’t have enough supplies, equipment or lab services.
Schools can open safely this fall. Staggered schedules and other precautions would help reduce children's low but real risk from Covid.
Tomorrow. Vaccines. Just saying.
It is worse than that. The reason HHS recently took over hospital data reporting is because CDC had limited capacity for timely, accurate reporting (e. g., some hospitals were literally faxing reports to CDC; the Administration wanted data on hospitalizations sorted by age and region, and CDC said it would take a month or more).
To CDC's credit, for many years they have asked for funding of a new system, but went ignored. Likewise, our intelligence community has for years warned that pandemics should be treated as a national risk on par with terrorism. Our Federal agencies in many ways were not prepared for a pandemic. Oddly, before COVID the US was ranked as best prepared, followed by UK.
In March-April we thought NYC would be the next Italy. The Feds quickly expanded hospital capacity, only to go unused, partly because Cuomo ordered nursing home cases of COVID to be returned to their nursing homes. And....
House calls! I remember in my early youth a doctor coming to our home to diagnose my mother and give her medicine. That was a long time ago. The Germany approach seems a less efficient use of limited numbers of doctors, yet the results were superior.
As were us all on most aspects of this pandemic, including the renown Dr Fauci. It caught the world flat-footed. We still have much to learn.
Because of this limitation, Trump's warp speed program is funding manufacturing of promising vaccines while undergoing Phase 3 trials.
Florida has 2.5x more cases than New Jersey but 3x less deaths. NY has 40% more cases than Florida but 600% more deaths than Florida. NY, NJ, and Italy was caught off-guard. Florida and everybody else learned from their mistakes. The most vulnerable are better protected now. Case fatality rate will go way down as long as we protect the most vulnerable.Currently, I'm not seeing enough death to warrant full shut downs. Perhaps the shutdowns have kept the death rate low. Had the situation been the same as it was in NY or Italy then I could see good reason to shut down. At least for the moment the states are suffering hundreds of deaths per day which isn't good but not enough to close down.
Currently, I'm not seeing enough death to warrant full shut downs. Perhaps the shutdowns have kept the death rate low. Had the situation been the same as it was in NY or Italy then I could see good reason to shut down. At least for the moment the states are suffering hundreds of deaths per day which isn't good but not enough to close down.
As is being done here and in Germany, other places as well. Interesting that production and packaging of the AZ/ Oxford vaccine is underway 300 miles from here so look for a 'Made in Italy' stamp on your vial :) EU spent a billion bucks as well on the Oxford vaccine production alone.
Scientists did this by transferring the genetic instructions for the coronavirus's "spike protein" - the crucial tool it uses to invade our cells - to the vaccine they were developing.
This means the vaccine resembles the coronavirus and the immune system can learn how to attack it.
Fauci is a scientist that understands when new information is available a hypothesis will be revised. Science is not static. I heard him get beaten up about masks, but also remember much of the intent early on was to conserve masks for those on the front lines.
There are still some people today believing masks are useless based on the education they got a few months ago. They believe the current about face on masks is the lie.
Surely no-one is using bacterial transmission in comparison with viral ones ?
Acknowledged in the text for all but you to see. The mucous-saliva respiratory droplet transporting bacteria can just as easily transport viruses. If you don't believe me, google multiphase fluid dynamics.
The text also mentions aerosols (smaller than droplets) produced when coughing, etc. Most are sufficiently large to carry viruses and they can travel farther than droplets.
Fauci, other medical experts, and governments around the world had to lie to save the masks for medical personnel otherwise we'd have what we had with toilet paper. It's amazing how many will believe a lie by educated people and governments when common sense should tell them masks are worn by healthy medical workers for protection so masks will work for everybody. There are still some people today believing masks are useless based on the education they got a few months ago. They believe the current about face on masks is the lie.
What is the big deal about requiring people to wear a face covering (in public) until the epidemic is under control? I just don't get it.
BC said “Fauci is a scientist”.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
He’s a big Pharma con-Artist pushing death cult propaganda and the sheep love it.
Problem is FT, you only know it is 'happening' when it hits you in the face. 'Currently' is pretty much a useless term in this context, already a month or more behind the curve.I don't suspect we will see much over 1000 deaths a day or less. While a shame, I don't see that as enough to close everything down. My guess is that it won't get that much worse than it already is. I think that Americans are going to accept this as a new normal and are going to want to live normally with this new added risk. If the numbers start increasing, then I could once again change my stance, but as you stated, by then it would be too late. I just don't see a workable alternative with the attitudes of the US population. There are 4 old guys I work with or around closely age range is 70-84 years old and only one of the four wears a mask sometimes, all the rest NEVER wear a mask unless forced to in a supermarket or something like that.
I don't suspect we will see much over 1000 deaths a day or less. While a shame, I don't see that as enough to close everything down. My guess is that it won't get that much worse than it already is. I think that Americans are going to accept this as a new normal and are going to want to live normally with this new added risk. If the numbers start increasing, then I could once again change my stance, but as you stated, by then it would be too late. I just don't see a workable alternative with the attitudes of the US population. There are 4 old guys I work with or around closely age range is 70-84 years old and only one of the four wears a mask sometimes, all the rest NEVER wear a mask unless forced to in a supermarket or something like that.
Fathertime!
Have anything constructive to add? And tell me, what do sheep have to do with it?
therefore for their benefit.
Trump gave a very interesting COVID press briefing today. It was his first since April. And he did it without anyone from his staff present. He was brief (maybe 20 minutes) and factual.
He is owning the pandemic, and says the pandemic will get worse before getting better.
Today he summarized all the progress being made in treatment protocols such that hospitalizations are shorter with fewer deaths. He claimed the States have everything the Federal government can provide. Trump proudly talked about the remarkably fast progress in developing multiple vaccines.
Trump answered some questions, most of which were about the election.
If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing. Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).
Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?
If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing. Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).
It's becoming increasingly rare that much of the MSM will cover President Trump live.
Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?
the pandemic is now CLEARLY owning him, cuz it was all a hoax a couple of months ago, remember?
Rump only declared a travel ban AFTER the major American airlines did so on their own FIRST...
then Trump did what they already did
OK?
he did NOTHING!
If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing. Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).
Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?
I guess it’s why he did nothing...
you just played yourselves and destroyed your own country!!!
you have about a year left before it all collapses.....
all of it
EVERYTHING!
Last few months is when NY and surrounding States were on fire. But the current trend is going downward and we are now below the threshold for what should be a normal amount of deaths.I decided to save your chart. It has been updating as it states it would. Your statement above is no longer correct. The number reported deaths is above the baseline. It is trending below the all time peak when the pandemic was killing 2000 a day though as it ripped through NY. Nevertheless, the death rate in the US is above it's average. Not by all that much though, and if were to stay at this rate, I wouldn't consider it urgent, or panic time.
A bit of perspective (http://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate), prior to this current pandemic, the US death rate was hovering at a clip of 2.8 million +/- per year...that's more or less mid-7000/day. So far halfway through 2020, because of COVID-19, we've surpassed last year's total.Interesting numbers thanks for providing them.
For the past 20-30 years, we fluctuated anywhere from 8.5 to 8.9/1000 deaths yearly. Prior decades to this, especially in the '70s, we nearly averaged in high 9s/1000. It'll be interesting to see why that is, but that's for another time, I suppose.
So the added deaths due to, or of COVID-19 - if it remained on a steady level to the end of the year, will our country see the same rate as it did in the '60s and all of the '70s.
What I'm saying is - we've been here before.
btw, if you peeked at the left column, there are 26 nations above us who have a higher death rate so far this year. This year we are at 8.9- per 1,000.
I decided to save your chart. It has been updating as it states it would. Your statement above is no longer correct. The number reported deaths is above the baseline. It is trending below the all time peak when the pandemic was killing 2000 a day though as it ripped through NY. Nevertheless, the death rate in the US is above it's average. Not by all that much though, and if were to stay at this rate, I wouldn't consider it urgent, or panic time.
Fathertime!
Dr. Fauci's ceremonial first pitch at the Nationals' game last night is as accurate as his COVID-19 predictions in January..
Oh well, rant for the day over :)
...do folks that were against a full lockdown of the nation for 45 days really still believe that 'saving the economy that is not getting saved' was the best path?
Considering the costs that keep rising, now with another trillion-dollar-plus stimulus...
Remember that much economic damage is still to come.....EUR is quickly rising against the dollar, already reaching 2018 levels. Will it go to the 1.40ish levels again?
went to huntington beach yesterday, I'd say less than 1/25 people were wearing masks. little to no social distancing was taking place. in the USA the virus is going to run it's course because that is what the people are deciding...for better or worse.
I highly doubt masks alone will do the trick. Some acclaim 'but... we are free!' I say we're already a slave to this virus. Some say 'But we're not socialist!'..
went to huntington beach yesterday, I'd say less than 1/25 people were wearing masks. little to no social distancing was taking place. in the USA the virus is going to run it's course because that is what the people are deciding...for better or worse.
Fathertime!
Yes, because Americans are unruly and would not have adhered to the strict policies.
Us seniors are reminded of the Federal (Nixon) mandated 55-mph speed limit during the 1970s oil embargo - largely ignored even with the highway patrol enforcing it, and deemed unsafe.
I wish it were only a trillion, the number proposed by the Repubs. The Dems are proposing three TRILLION - got to piggyback some progressive initiatives.
BTW, the spending is more relief than stimulus.
There is not a large difference in inflation and interest rates between EU and US, so the primary driver of changing currency valuations is debt. Today's valuations reflect Biden's lead in the polls and the Democrats' obvious intentions to spend. spend, spend.
BC, this is not over. A year from now we will know the answer. Of course, no country goes unscathed, yet Europe is less hurt in the third inning.
____________________________
P. S. New cases in Florida are plateauing. Hospitalizations and deaths have increased, but not to the rates experienced by New York and Italy in Spring. Obese and elderly account for much of the severe cases.
'Unruly'....selfish ego-driven excuses that clearly shows our inability to confront a totally apolitical threat as a united nation.
And I am old enough to remember the seat belt debate. I can't move, much too restrictive, cuts into my belly, I am a good driver etc. Same crap as with masks today.
Sure, blame Biden, which will cure everything. You're much smarter than that Gator.
We already know the answer ....
Yeah, those old fat people, who give a shit about 'em.
Not trying to beat you up Gator, but it is high time we face the reality of this monster we created.
You give a couple of lefty perspectives of unruliness such as conservatives considering this a hoax. I know of no conservatives who consider this a hoax. We wear masks, etc.
For an example of unruliness, look at Seattle, Portland,... In Florida, the mix of alcohol, young hormones and partying seems to be a key source of spreading.
King George thought we were unruly.
I thought seat belts were cool. Wore mine. Worse today as my trips are short and slow. Nevertheless, I wear my mask in any closed space and follow the 2-m rule. Less keen about gloves, but the germ gestapo (my wife) compels me.
Biden will cave to the left. If I am stupid, I assert I am less stupid than you if you believe a left leaning Democrat administration will not accelerate debt.
If you know the answer, please enlighten me on how to invest for the next five years. Is the answer sell everything US and buy Chinese stocks? I don't think so.
Did not say that, and certainly don't harbor such feelings. I feel for my peers. :)
I thought the "monster" (i. e., the virus) originated in China, who did not do their best. In hindsight, the world in early January should have closed all of China (borders, travelers, goods, etc.). I imagine this will happen the next time provided the world enhances its surveillance, to include the WHO.
I know of no conservatives who consider this a hoax. We wear masks, etc.Then you know VERY few people that are conservatives. I know numerous people that are conservatives and many consider the virus a bunch of trumped up BS, designed to trip up trump.
BC, it's not a conservative thing. Look at the photos in the links below. No social distancing and few masks among liberal protestors in Oklahoma. If you don't point out the major violations on both sides, you'll become a hypocrite. The violations are an American thing, not conservative or liberal. Personally, I wouldn't be around those crowds but Americans gonna do what Americans wanna do.
Billy,
there are more masks in the 50 or so folks in your pictures than I could find at the Trump rally photo.
But sure many folks all over are not wearing masks or distancing in places they should be doing so. Do you?
BTW my poke at Gator was in reply to his 'We wear masks' remark, but yeah fair game is ok and no, I don't justify protestors for not taking proper precautions.
Billy,
just google 'portland protests' It is full of protesters wearing masks. In fact, just guessing at the very least half of protestors wear them.
The virus is not the monster. We are, - morphed into one by our own selfishness.
Bull crap! Election rhetoric - all part of a widespread political and media campaign to frighten voters.
Individual choices largely determine whether one becomes infected.
The number of new positive cases is increasing, yet hospitalizations and deaths are not keeping pace. The lower death rates do not fit the Democrats' scare tactics.
Election rhetoric - all part of a widespread political and media campaign to frighten voters.
Like I said...internet losers.
http://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study
Contact page, baby. Anytime.
Deflection. Try again.
Contact Page: http://www.henryford.com/about/contact
Come back and tell us what the result is. Otherwise, STFU.
GQB is busted and claims I'm 'deflecting' ..It would be hilarious, if this wasn't so serious.
Why don't you write to the FDA, GQB ? :popcorn:
Conclusions and relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.
I addressed that already on another thread, BC. It doesn't diminished the resulting conclusive study in Henry Ford's multiple hospitals. They published and filed the report in the IJID this month. To this date, the study stands.
This means all data are available for inspection, scrutiny and open for prospective study to either support and/or refute the results of their study.
I'm not sure if moby's Googling habit is enough to challenged Henry Ford's epidemiologists for the time being. Dunno, maybe he's also looking for Guardian's opinion article on this one.
In other words, no.. GQB is 'desperate' to not simply state.. "I, like the President, was simply WRONG .."
.. it's another outlier .. not a proper clinical trial ... the FDA holds sway.
Fail. STFU.
Contact page, baby...what's the matter? No Guardian opinion article to refute?
For the reader not yet comatose..Unlike GQB, who had not HEARD of HCQ .. I have a family member that does use it and strangely enough, Googled, sought the 'advice' of folks who are practicing ( sen. physicians) re this drug, LONG before GQB thought it might 'help' re the virus..
These are my own thoughts and words Gator.
Indeed, if there are folks around me not wearing masks, MY risk of infection is higher.
Has Florida not experienced weeks of record infections and deaths? Is the 7 day moving average for deaths average not going up and up still?
And every anti-Trump media platform and every Democrat politician.
I gave them a wide berth. Today they are rare inside shops, and I still give everyone a wide berth. My largest risk is playing golf because some dudes are too excitable.
About 800 deaths this past seven days vs. 300 the first week in July.
6,333 total deaths in Florida = accumulative CFR of 1.4% (vs. 14.2% for Italy) Florida population is 22 million population vs. Italy's 60 million. You have explained Italy's high CFR is due in part to age, yet Florida has many seniors (13% 60-69, 9% 70-79, 5% 80+).
Accumulative CFR: 1.4% July 29
2.2% July 1
4.3% June 1
3.8% May 1
MAGA!!! 4 More Years! 4 More Years!!I really believe many leaders of other nations would like to see trump prevail. My belief is 4 more years of trump would be destructive to the US as a whole in terms of how we make deals with and expect/demand cooperation from other nations. I think more nations will continue to break from us, and we will find ourselves alone more and more often. The good news about that is as our soft power continues to erode, we won't be able to start or foment as many conflicts as we did under past presidents.
Wouldn't it be the same for you as it applies to the Trump media platform and conservative politicians?
That's great for you. Masks are more about not infecting others than protecting oneself.
What does that equal, 294 deaths per million and counting fast.? I'll let you do the math as to what you expect deaths per million in Florida will be by election day and end of the year. Do you expect it to be lower or higher than Italy's deaths per million?
1. Trump - I think Trump is an asshole, yet I support the policies, especially in contrast with the Democrat alternatives and the direction the Democrats are heading.
2. Conservative Politicians - Many of the Republican senators have noble goals. The House Republicans are mixed, probably because they share the chambers with the many Democrat radicals.
3. Media - I am watching less and less news. CNN has declined to such advocacy to be unwatchable. Excepting Sunday's GPS, I see CNN only when Fox mocks their coverage. When the Times and Post return their Pulitzers because they helped fabricate the Russian collusion hoax, I may start reading them. Until then I would prefer being dipped in shit. My limited time is confined mostly to Fox and BBC except when the latter is covering the UK (not interested). Fox is too repetitive yet the afternoon show 'The Five' will at least make fun of journalistic absurdity, Mike Wallace's son strives for balance, and Laura Ingraham relaxes me before bedtime (Raymond is a delight).
A mask works both ways, but better at limiting output.Indeed.
By election day - lower. If no vaccine is developed the 2021 deaths per million will be more than Italy's 2020 rate. However, without a vaccine Italy and Europe will start ticking up again in 2021.
GQ,
I don't want the bone you are fighting with moby over, but the most important statement on the Ford page is the following:
In other words a randomized trial would be necessary to confirm their results. IIRC there was a trial under similar admittance conditions but it was halted? Do you know of other trials that support the Ford results showing efficacy?
http://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine.
Hi GQ,
Thanks for the links.
All seem to be retrospective assessments based on past patient histories. That's not to say it's not a good starting point, just that they are not double-blind randomized trials like I guess the NIH trial was that was stopped.
Let's keep looking though, I believe there were some trials for prophylactic use before folks get infected.
This is just from a novice perception, BC. Lancet had also coined this before. It appears if HCQ is administered at a very early onset of the virus, paired with the cited agents, it proves much more effective. This would actually makes sense since it'll suppress activation of our body's auto-immune system which had been credited to be what causes intubation and ultimately fatalities.
Another thing killing people is their immune system isn't strong enough or reacts fast enough to stop COVID-19. Taking a medication that suppresses the immune system can increase their chances of death. Doctors can't look at someone and guess how their immune system will react with COVID-19 at any point of the battle they have with it. One minute a person is battling the disease just fine and weeks later their immune system gives up or goes into overdrive.
GQ, it's over for HCQ. Any authority that allow the use of drugs and reviewed all the trials have given HCQ thumbs down. I have a friend who's worked in drug development and it takes years for drugs to get approval and most drugs never make it to the market. It's a long and controlled process and he's amused by the stories out there that a miracle drug can be found in a short time. Even with relaxing the rules, HCQ didn't make the cut. What are the chances of any medicine we got designed for something else being able to work with the virus of the century? Try finding a needle in a haystack. It took a very long time before they could decent treatments for HIV. Vaccines for this new coronavirus may prove to be not effective. We could be living with this virus a long time.
Conclusions and relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.
I don’t really what that means so I’ll just make something up
The above is from the Henry Ford link. They concluded more trials are needed. If they don't feel a need to complete all the trials necessary to get a drug approved, then they've given up. And there's no reason for anybody to call them to tell them they're wrong when their conclusion is they need more trials.
Billy there are literally 100's of doctors speaking out about the effectiveness of HCQ and getting silenced. When they feel they have a vaccine rest assured it won't be given the trials they're calling for HCQ. Big Pharma and Fauci have blown smoke up your and the worlds collective ass and you're saluting itDoesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret. It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea.
Billy there are literally 100's of doctors speaking out about the effectiveness of HCQ and getting silenced. They have done trials in the heat of battle both as a prophylactic and a treatment.
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.
Soldiers in the heat of battle don't get to see the overall picture that generals do. None of those 100s of doctors are qualified to do real trials. Not only do they need to figure out if a drug works, they need to find out how it affects people with a wide variety of diseases or on other medications. It's easy to find hundreds of people who disagree on anything. I'm not surprised hundreds of doctors spoke out but they are still outnumbered by the silent majority. Also, no authority that allows doctors to use drugs approve HCQ for emergency use anymore. After the trials, they concluded it wasn't the drug some doctors claimed it to be. I believe those authorities do care about the American people and want to get it right. They don't want a drug floating around doing little to help and a lot to hurt. Drugs that are prescribed are controlled for a reason. If you don't believe the authorities on drugs, you'd have to believe there is a conspiracy.
Doesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret. It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea.
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.
Doesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret. It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea.
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.
Fathertime!
Silent majority? You mean the silent majority that is silencing doctors on the front line actually treating covid patients with much success rather than following the protocols of the WHO and CDC?
Can the president come across any more of an idiot?
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/01/trump-covid-19-fauci-cases-testing
Donald Trump claims Anthony Fauci ‘wrong’ about cause of Covid-19 surge
BBC News - Coronavirus: The bogus meme targeting Dr Fauci, and other fake claims
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53601027
Some reality for HCQ 'experts'...
Why wouldn't it be plausible? HCQ is more every day being revealed as a treatment that is working if applied in time.
The world's nations we also shunned and pointed fingers at Sweden's approach which, btw was the same approach every nation used for prior viruses to covid, herd immunity. Sweden never shut down nor had a mask mandate. They'll end up having less deaths than most comparable countries as a result.
Bottom line is The entire situation was misdirected worldwide as a result of China, the WHO and the CDC. Now we should still adhere to the advice that is wrong and continually rubber stamped as accurate with little to no science to support it? Remember most that are infected and still less than 1% of those actually die.
HCQ has been used successfully by Brazil and Switzerland.
As 2TallBill has mentioned above or elsewhere Fauci is running a deliberate smear campaign against it.
The Swiss Society for Infectious Diseases has withdrawn this treatment from its recommendations and only recommends it in the context of clinical studies.
HCQ has been used successfully by Brazil and Switzerland.
My local newspaper put out interesting stats. People 80 years and older in my state have a 51% chance in dying from COVID-19. Ages 60-79 have a 38% chance in dying. Ages 40-59 have a 9% chance in dying. Ages 20-39 have a 2% chance in dying. Some of you guys may want to alter your behavior and I don't mean by partying more.
Billy,
agree with your post, but just curious as to the percentages you mentioned. Are these percentages of folks that are admitted to the hospital, or were put on respirators or other? They seem to be quite high for folks that were just infected.
Article below says HCQ been in over 350 studies which is near double of any other drug. They point out flaws in even the most promising study saying "In the Henry Ford trial, patients that got hydroxychloroquine were about five years younger, on average, than those who didn’t, Schluger says. “We know that age is the single strongest predictor of mortality from this illness.”
http://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-no-evidence-treatment
How much more time and money some of you guys want to dump into studies about a medicine that was designed for another illness thinking it be the miracle treatment against the virus of the century?
My local newspaper put out interesting stats. People 80 years and older in my state have a 51% chance in dying from COVID-19. Ages 60-79 have a 38% chance in dying. Ages 40-59 have a 9% chance in dying. Ages 20-39 have a 2% chance in dying. Some of you guys may want to alter your behavior and I don't mean by partying more.
my daughters and I are scheduled to receive this vaccine in October...
Krim, when you're writing your will, remember the name BillyB!!!Like going to find it... before it finds you huh? (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
my daughters and I are scheduled to receive this vaccine in October...
me being a geezer, I'm supposed to feel sick from this virus for 48 hours...
my daughters being teens should recover in half the time with half the symptoms
so, I will go first, and they will care for me, then when I recover, they will take it, and I will care for them
we will have to quarantine TWICE, and I need to document my quarantine
the second one I will have an anti-body count test by the government
and I will get a "к" stamp on my passport
at that point, my daughters and I should be VERY covid-19 resistant
enough I hope, that we can go ahead with this crazy idea of my oldest daughter getting married in Moscva at the end of October
in the middle of a freaking global pandemic
after that, if I have faith in the effectiveness of the vaccine...
i.e. I'm still alive
I MAY decide to take a trip to the Russian far eastern city of Mirny, a gritty siberan mining town
I pay someone there to "keep me informed" about the black market in illicit diamonds there
the market has collapsed, due to a lack of buyers
and prices falling and inventory are building
I can swap laundered dollars for diamonds
and make money on both sides of the transaction
I freakin love Russia
if the vaccine does give me immunity
I will have a huge hidden advantage over ALL the other dealers!
Russians don't NEED no testing, we're freakin Russians
the first people taking it IS the trial...
by the time we take it, we'll be at 3rd stage trial level
I doubt we'll ever really know much other than it either works or not.
I assume their vaccine has advanced to the point it won't normally kill anyone or cause great harm.
Would Putin proudly announce a vaccine that had a high risk of not working or causing harm? Kinda doubt it.
....trial-by-fire development approach. It worked out very well.
Also, imagine they can sidestep some of the lengthy ethical hurdles we face.
He is extrapolating from a Phase 1 trial, 100 people at most, as few as 38 based on the rumor mill. The vaccine is more likely ineffective rather than harmful, provided the viral vectors are non-replicating.
Would you want to be one of the first subjects in a trial-by-fire development?
Hypocritical comment from someone advocating total lockdown. What you call "ethical" is actually "health and safety." In America, given the exigency, we have already fast tracked our normal standards. Russia has hyper tracked. Would you want your wife to use her contacts to be vaccinated today?
Rumor = we don't really know.
this is fake news spread by liberal news media
how will yours be remembered?
The American standard of living has taken a large hi during the trump era, from underwear to my favorite cookies, I don't have the same choices I did 2 years ago. Some of it is trump's fault, other parts are not. Our national debt is getting so unbelievably bad that I question how much longer the music can play.
the living standard in the USA is LOWER today than it was a generation ago
and it will be MUCH, MUCH lower a generation from now, based on the expected rate of productivity of today’s 18 yr olds, most of em are gonna be lucky just to be able to feed themselves a few years from now, let alone make ANY kind of social contribution...
there will be little manufacturing left
no restaurants, salons,
no travel, hotels
commercial aircraft orders
1/3 of all retail stores will be bankrupt in a couple of months
american business has been crippled by paying hundreds of billions in tariffs and is losing the trade war with China
businesses pay for the tariffs out of their profits as well as raising prices
If we don't know, why trust it?
Davy Crocket is LONG GONE my friend.
take a look at the 18 yr olds today...
what kinda future do you think THIS generation is going to create
Considering His disastrous record handling the coronavirus should we trust Trump? Really?
The US is moving to the left for the most part.
- The world does not belong to American business.
- America is shifting to the left, which is to say it is focusing inwardly.
That latter point needs to be changed. The critical battle is not within America, but our position in the world. America first. To the contrary, I assert a Democrat sweep in November will be debilitating.
The US is moving to the left for the most part.
If we are forced to compete on a more level playing field in business we are going to be in trouble. Our foreign policy often is designed to give us a huge and often unfair advantage over other nations. Despite this, we are losing ground.
Fathertime!
Considering His disastrous record handling the coronavirus should we trust Trump? Really?
Do you really believe a vaccine will be available on election day? Maybe set up immunization stands at polling places with little round 'Saved by Trump' stickers?
If Trump were given the choice of releasing a vaccine today, without phase 3 trials he would do so in a heartbeat.
Moving left is towards totalitarian government, moving right is throwing off tyranny.The people's attitudes are more left than they used to be. the government doesn't seem much different.
Change in plans folks. After the Filipino Food and Drug Administration reviewed the newly released Russian vaccine, The president decided he won't take it first but take in next year in May after they do a phase 3 trail on it among the Filipino people. Phase 3 should should be completed in April.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-skip-philippine-trial-russia-092348187.html
41% of Americans have depression due to pandemic. For those who want to tell everybody to sit home and hide, you're going to mess up the lives of the living just to prevent a few deaths.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-is-devastating-americans-mental-health-cdc-says-170026332.html
Any idea how things are going in Ukraine Billy?
The official stats reckon virus numbers have increased to around 1500 cases per day now.
Thoughts?
http://thenationalpulse.com/news/un-expert-says-covid-19-bioweapon/
America has 7.5 times the population of Ukraine yet we have 125 times the amount of people in serious or critical condition due to COVID based on the data for nations below. America's hospitals aren't overloaded but Ukraine's hospitals don't have any room to take COVID patients, at least from my MIL's observation of Western Ukraine's hospitals.
http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
A lot of governments are massively lying about the conditions within their nation. Even America under reports but not intentionally. Historians will estimate the death toll of COVID-19 not based on data supplied by governments but based on expected death toll and how much the world has gone over that expected amount.
http://finance.yahoo.com/m/170d7b1c-806c-3001-a8c2-34620a02803d/the-‘excess-deaths’-tally-in.html
How come this info isn't getting out into the online news sites. Surely if hospitals are packed out with Covid cases in Ukraine some news of it would get through?
I believe the media is more free in Ukraine than Russia but I do know there's questionable reporting by the doctors. Although my wife's uncle has COVID, the cheap notoriously inaccurate made in China test kit they gave him said he was negative so he is not counted in nationwide count for cases.
Worldwide, I suspect there's a lot of national pride among medical workers and pressure for politicians to manipulate the numbers to protect their image and keep their jobs. Other times medical workers keep quiet otherwise they may fall out of windows like what happened in Russia. Nobody ever seems lucky enough to fall out of the 1st story window of a building.
His model puts the threshold for herd immunity at 43 percent — that is, the virus cannot hang on in a community after that percentage of residents has been infected and recovered.
Still, that means many residents of the community will have been sickened or have died, a high price to pay for herd immunity. And experts like Dr. Hanage cautioned that even a community that may have reached herd immunity cannot afford to be complacent.
The virus may still flare up here and there, even if its overall spread is stymied. It’s also unclear how long someone who has recovered may be immune, and for how long.
Herd immunity will significantly decrease the chances of a major outbreak and allow us to live a more normal life temporarily. What we need is lifetime immunity. After the first round of vaccines are distributed, they will continue to work to find better vaccines.
MN Governor Quietly Reverses Course on Hydroxychloroquine
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/08/17/mn_governor_quietly_reverses_course_on_hydroxychloroquine__143978.html
Dr. Birx: I Wish US Had Locked Down 'Like Italy'
"But when Italy locked down, I mean, people were not allowed out of their houses. And they couldn't come out but once every two weeks to buy groceries for one hour. And they had to have a certificate that said they were allowed."
What is YOUR expertise on HCQ, Beel ...?
I posted an article that I didn't write, without comment. You are not a
medical doctor and have no special qualifications. Go ahead and tell
everyone that you were the head of the CDC, nobody will listen.
1/ I have a qualie that means I'm just as smart as any Doc on microbiology
1/ I have a qualie that means I'm just as smart as any Doc on microbiology
2/ I have a daughter who has been taking HCQ for a use it actually has efficacy
3/ I have a micro-biologist as a biz partner and a medical professional ( retired surgeon) with experience in working in Congo, Ethiopia in epidemiology and the Russian is a brilliant Mathematician who studied medicine , concurrently
Dr. Birx: I Wish US Had Locked Down 'Like Italy'
“Americans don’t react well to that kind of prohibition.”
Many I have spoken to here consider the sacrifices they made quite justified, especially when observing results and deaths in the US.
~Prescribing hydroxychloroquine in the early stages of the virus is key, Risch said, and others agree.
HCQ doesn't work instantaneously. It takes time before it actually works. It's why Trump was taking it even when he wasn't infected. It's a gamble. If someone took HCQ early and got infected and their immune system wants to go into overdrive killing organs, then HCQ is great stuff and could save their life. But if a person was on HCQ and their immune system proved not strong enough to fight COVID, HCQ could increase their chances of dying. Nobody, including doctors knows how someone's immune system will react to COVID. It's a gamble when taking HCQ early.
It's okay if 2 States our of 50 want to reverse course due topoliticalmedical pressure. The link below has the current best candidates to use for treatments. Doctors in those two states need to consider them although they now have the option to give HCQ to a screaming patient and their family who demands it. Most likely an all new drug for treatment needs to be created for COVID like what was done for HIV. It may take decades to develop a successful drug.
http://www.bio.org/policy/human-health/vaccines-biodefense/coronavirus/pipeline-tracker
I suspect Henry Ford Clinic haven't received anything from you, yes?
I'm still waiting for them to do the recommended trials they said were needed in their conclusion. I suspect they gave up on the project and are now testing other drugs that show more promise.
I saw that clip. BC, you failed her subsequent and equally important statement.Quote“Americans don’t react well to that kind of prohibition.”
Therein lies the rub. State governments closed non-essential activities, yet did not do an "Italy." Nor did the Federal government pass legislation mandating an "Italy."
The American approach depended much on voluntary compliance. I assert most Americans voluntarily followed the health guidelines.
I still assert that a relatively short 45-day lockdown followed by a mandated
pre-planned reopening phase would have allowed for a faster and more robust
recovery without costly interruptions and rollbacks.
It is obvious that the patchwork approach (first attempted here in Italy) did not work.
Had most Americans and states followed the published reopening guidelines a lot of grief may have been avoided.
What do they show on your internet news or Italy TV?
I really think that's the best that we can do with 50 different States with 50 different
governors and state legislatures involved. The USA is 32 and a half times the size of
Italy.
It would be impossible to mandate a one size fits all reopening with that many politicians
and egos involved. The governors know their local situation better than any federal
agency or official and some of them wouldn't do anything that a Trump administration
had a hand in.
Lastly, our constitution doesn't allow the government to force people to do all the
same things that Italy can do to their citizens.
Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.
12 in the Rome area tested positive after a party in Sardinia.
Is free testing being offered/performed at US airports?
Italy has 20 regions, a quarter of which are autonomous. Still, they worked together in concert.
That losing party believes the only legitimate exercise of power in this country is its own. That party has continued to obstruct legitimate executive power through actions of partisan Federal judges, or agents deeply embedded as bureaucrats, or states exercising powers they never were allowed to use in the past, or a chamber of legislature stonewalling.
I really think that's the best that we can do with 50 different States with 50 different
governors and state legislatures involved. The USA is 32 and a half times the size of
Italy.
It would be impossible to mandate a one size fits all reopening with that many politicians
and egos involved. The governors know their local situation better than any federal
agency or official and some of them wouldn't do anything that a Trump administration
had a hand in.
Lastly, our constitution doesn't allow the government to force people to do all the
same things that Italy can do to their citizens.
Funny.. I've heard pretty much the same story from both sides.
I haven't seen an airport in 6+ months. Are they open? ;D
One thing I can say however with California, we have 3 times the infection Italy has, yet with 3 times less fatality. Does this mean anything to anyone? Maybe like Italians are a bunch weaklings/sissies? Or, maybe this clearly means their Socialize health system is in reality shoddy? Or, maybe their government is the world's worst form of governing? Disorganize society? Maybe all of the above?
So far, despite the much higher rate of infection, No Californians have to fear our medical systems will play god and choose on who gets to live or die like they did in Italy.
Places like Italy and NY did not have such luxury and were overloaded with very sick folks lining up at hospitals.
GQ,
No, I did not miss your 'response of last resort' which you seem to keep bringing up again and again when left without a reasonable response. I also see you now qualify your statement for California which may well be true and valid. Ok, doctors in California reportedly did not have to make difficult choices. Ask yourself why. The answer is that California was one of the first states able to implement mitigation and stay at home based on what was happening elsewhere. Orders you complained about and IIRC ridiculed. Places like Italy and NY did not have such luxury and were overloaded with very sick folks lining up at hospitals.
Physicians have to make difficult choices even without crisis situations. It is a sad part of their job, like deciding which patient needing a transplant gets an available organ while others die. Even whether or not a candidate is expected to benefit from advanced treatments. If a piece of equipment like a ventilator is not available these same tough choices have to be made and the 30 some year old will receive treatment instead of the 94-year-old. Some patients were put on ECMO when they did not respond well with ventilators. The same type of choices had to be made as to who would best benefit from these rare devices. Everyone that was not helped by ventilators was not put on ECMO as a last resort. There simply were not enough of them and folks to perform and monitor all patients.
But lets take something even more simple... How many doctors, nurses, first responders and other healthcare professionals died due to lack of masks and other PPE and how many non covid patients died because they got infected in the hospital? I guess California did not have such cases either.
One thing I am very confident of is that doctors and nurses in every corner of the planet are doing their very best for their patients with the resources they have available, even risking their own lives doing so. They are certainly not deserving of your boasting critique.
Sometimes in our zeal to condemn Trump, we forget what his team accomplished.
Reasonable?!? Hmmm. Ironic.
You are so lost and blinded by the result of 2016 election you've lost the capability to put things in *proper perspective*. I previously warned you to prepare yourself in the event Trump wins this election, too.
Isn't it interesting that none of my posts the last two pages criticized Trump.
Guess it's a sensitive matter for some LOL
GQ
Coronavirus is coronavirus, humans are human, and cases are cases... the virus does not care. I am addressing how different countries addressed the virus crisis and their respective results. If you can't take critique or respond in kind that's fine. No skin off my back. All's well and safe here, thanks for asking.
Isn't it interesting that none of my posts the last two pages criticized Trump.
Guess it's a sensitive matter for some LOL
GQ,
I also see you now qualify your statement for California which may well be true and valid. Ok, doctors in California reportedly did not have to make difficult choices. Ask yourself why. The answer is that California was one of the first states able to implement mitigation and stay at home based on what was happening elsewhere.
HERD IMMUNITY IS REAL
We all expect by the beginning of 2021 a safe vaccine or two or more will become available. Effectiveness will be an issue. As an alternative to a vaccine, albeit an undesirable alternative, the COVID pandemic can be reduced to an endemic level if enough people become infected, i. e. herd immunity.
It was originally thought that herd immunity would require infection of 70 percent of the population. NY Times is reporting that scientists now believe "herd immunity probably lies from 45 percent to 50 percent" because people are not uniformly susceptible to the virus.
http://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200817&instance_id=21332&nl=the-morning®i_id=99411211§ion_index=1§ion_name=big_story&segment_id=36280&te=1&user_id=aac555ac0b5bc3dd685117e9d67533db
Considering the July and August high rates of new infections in the US and also the fact that asymptomatic cases represent a high percentage of COVID infections, we may be closer to herd immunity than imaginable a short time ago. It is believed such is already the case for some "pockets" of the world. "In some clinics in hard-hit Brooklyn neighborhoods, up to 80 percent of people who were tested at the beginning of the summer had antibodies for the virus. Over the past eight weeks, fewer than 1 percent of people tested at those same neighborhood clinics have had the virus." Something similar has been reported for Mumbai.
If such is the case, the virus will be spreading more slowly in 2021 than what happened in early 2020. Needless to say, we all prefer a safe, effective vaccine. And who wants to live in Brooklyn?!
Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.
The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
Unlike you ignoring the history of NY COVID, we can not ignore your history.
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?
It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.
Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?
One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.
The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
I was always curious as to why Bill Gates seemed so engaged in various facets of this particular virus events.
Pretty interesting, FP. Would be even better if there's 2, or even 3, citations clipped along with this post.
I was always curious as to why Bill Gates seemed so engaged in various facets of this particular virus events.
That's a good question but unlike Billyb I don't think he's in it as a humanitarian. He's too connected with the elite globalists, George Soros and company. He's not in it for the money, maybe the power? The longer this virus goes on IMHO the more the elitists see that they can indeed control the population with just the fear of a virus. A virus with a mere .04% death rate.
As a side I was in Wally world today and there must have been 90% of the many folks there wearing a mask. I still do not own one
I wasn't aware he and Fauci are business partners.
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?
It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.
Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?
One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.
The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
OMG
I hope someone can explain 'herd immunity' and its 'success' in Sweden...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/swedens-covid-19-strategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails
Full circle.
We discussed NY yesterday. There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly. The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother.
The chart in your article shows infection cases are rising for several countries in Europe. I hope the rise is abated. The world does not need another wave. Why no data for Italy, UK and Germany. BC has shown how Italy cases have decline to very low levels.
I read your article. It acknowledges that an open economy would create more cases of infection, and hence more deaths, confined mostly to the frail. Many scientists have advocated rigid quarantining of the frail (what Joe Biden is doing for himself) rather than quarantining the whole population (i. e., economic lockdown). Makes sense to me.
We discussed NY yesterday. There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly. The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother.
The chart in your article shows infection cases are rising for several countries in Europe. I hope the rise is abated. The world does not need another wave. Why no data for Italy, UK and Germany. BC has shown how Italy cases have decline to very low levels.
...We discussed NY yesterday. There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly. The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother...
This "second wave" cheerleading is mostly driven by fearmongering for political purposes/power.
I am seeing a number of charts indicating that while cases are increasing illnesses are not (to the same degree).
Rate of mortality has been largely linked to demographics (e.g. NYC is demographically the oldest city in the USA).
This "second wave" cheerleading is mostly driven by fearmongering for political purposes/power.
GQB
why do you constantly post tosh ?
Sweden had TEN times the mortality rate of Finland and it's economy contracted by over 8% as opposed to 5% ...
Well, gee...I'm sure Guam is faring so much better than Sweden, too...Not sure why you didn't make that point.
The data is there, dude. Read it and weep. If you can't stand to face reality, it's of no concern to anyone.
RWD123
Let's test your hypothesis on the graph below. How do you interpret the results shown for country X and what is your conclusion? You can then guess which country the graphs represent.
Ah your 'data'.. like the efficacy of HCQ ...
Reality can be a b!tch to some, Not least of which, apparently, to you. :devil:
The reality is your very own FDA ..
[Compares UK with Sweden ....?]
Only one of those nations has two major hub airports, cruise liner departure points .. The UK govt. was daft enough to try the 'Swedish way' ..but 'wised up'..too late for many
You made a daft point - I simply busted you with one example..
I could have mentioned Norway or Denmark...all neighbouring Nordic nations to Sweden ..
So...
FAIL on the death front
FAIL on the 'herd immunity' front
FAIL on the economic front
Now, ( once more ) FDA v GCB's HenryFord outlier ...
What do I see?
A plot of the CFR would show a significant decline.
Yes, daily new cases in July and August have increased at rates higher than seen in the Spring. More cases means more deaths and indeed they have increased too, albeit at much lower rates than seen in the Spring (i. e., infected people are dying at a much lower rate).
And your chart now shows the start of a downtick in both new cases and deaths.
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?Jeepers! So China, Fauci, and Gates are all in on this...sorry that isn't believable. These grand conspiracies' that all the nations of the world would have to be in on just don't pass the mustard.
It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.
Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?
One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.
The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
Jeepers! So China, Fauci, and Gates are all in on this...sorry that isn't believable. These grand conspiracies' that all the nations of the world would have to be in on just don't pass the mustard.
All that said, i'm starting to also question the necessity of all the nations have been doing, although generally I'm not following protocols myself.
Fathertime!
Surprising as you impress me as a rabid follower for just about anything.Interesting, because that is how you come across to me.
A few salient facts the entire world has seemingly totally ignored:this does appear to be the case...
The virus is real the panic is not
Positive cases of infections in 99.6 of the infected is only an illness. Not a death sentence
We likely will all experience it before it is no longer a threat.
Protecting the vulnerable does not require shutting down the 99.6%
Interesting, because that is how you come across to me.
this does appear to be the case...
I'd be curious to see how many more deaths and illnesses we would have had by now had we (The US) conducted business as usual.
Fathertime!
1/ Sweden killed 10 times more than her immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland and six times more than Denmark
2/ Sweden's economy contacted by over eight percent in QTR 2 ... Finland just over 5
3/ Who thinks removing 5-8 eight years off a life is 'worth it' ?
4/ We see in nations like Belarus what happens to a 'leader' who tried to ignore the virus ..
For those STILL thinking the old weren't worth saving ..
1/ Sweden killed 10 times more than her immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland and six times more than Denmark
2/ Sweden's economy contacted by over eight percent in QTR 2 ... Finland just over 5
3/ Who thinks removing 5-8 eight years off a life is 'worth it' ?
4/ We see in nations like Belarus what happens to a 'leader' who tried to ignore the virus ..
You realize you have four years of posts criticizing Trump. At maybe 5 such posts per week, that's 1000 posts. And the basis of your criticism typically boils down not to hard facts but your perceptions, tainted by the fact you despise Trump's persona. Try finding a post where you said something good about Trump and COVID. Let's open that to anything about Trump, not just NY.
Repeat, repeat, repeat.....rest....repeat, repeat again and again.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24465.msg539350#msg539350
JFTR
Good morning, Phil,
It is indeed a shame that I had to repost given you don;t seem to be reminding those who post nonsense misinfo, but 'moan' about FACTS ;)
Only one of those nations has two major hub airports, cruise liner departure points .. The UK govt. was daft enough to try the 'Swedish way' ..but 'wised up'..too late for many
You made a daft point - I simply busted you with one example..
I could have mentioned Norway or Denmark...all neighbouring Nordic nations to Sweden ..
So...
FAIL on the death front
FAIL on the 'herd immunity' front
FAIL on the economic front
Now, ( once more ) FDA v GCB's HenryFord outlier ...
Yet Moby has the cheek to compare Finland & Sweden. Finland has less than half the population, half the population density & a totally different culture & rural/urban mix. They also have a completely different economy and tackled covid with a hybrid strategy.
That is why the only real measure we have is deaths per million as it encompasses most of the underlying factors. As far as countries go, we're not really that different or unique in composition. Propagation of the virus and its aftereffects are mostly driven by our behaviours.
It's still a very simple yard stick because the initial death rate comparison doesn’t take into account things like additional non covid deaths attributed to people not going for treatment, suicide attributed to lockdown or murder & domestic abuse. On a wider scale we’ve got social issues, government debt & job losses. It’ll all play out over years rather than months.
Like I said, nobody came out of this with a gold medal and country comparison is apples and pears. Look at Belgium & Holland, two similar countries in many ways with two very different outcomes. Both locked down.
Belgium locked down but fared way worse than Sweden. Some people even try to compare New Zealand and the UK because they can’t help but politicise it.
1/ It is a little tiresome when you or Beel suggest I do not know history and the intent of your founding fathers..
One of my own nations has a totally fair electoral system, where people has been disenfranchised for two and a half centuries, but didn't implement the new, fair system on the mainland of GB.
Well, looky what we got here?!? A reasoned, sensible post!
It's still a very simple yard stick because the initial death rate comparison doesn’t take into account things like additional non covid deaths attributed to people not going for treatment, suicide attributed to lockdown or murder & domestic abuse. On a wider scale we’ve got social issues, government debt & job losses. It’ll all play out over years rather than months.
Like I said, nobody came out of this with a gold medal and country comparison is apples and pears. Look at Belgium & Holland, two similar countries in many ways with two very different outcomes. Both locked down.
Belgium locked down but fared way worse than Sweden. Some people even try to compare New Zealand and the UK because they can’t help but politicise it.
So prove it by not sounding ignorant.
It was YOU that was and being ignorant...
Your EC system is broken. It keeps allowing a loser to 'win'..
'Some people' compare the Nordic nations as they are NOT...like you comparing apples and oranges.
'Some people' seek to deflect from the horrendous decisions of some govts. to go for 'herd immunity', then reverse course when too late.
'Some people' seek to deflect from Sweden suffering worse economically than neighbours who locked down.
'Some people' suggest this pandemkc is not nearly as serious as portrayed.
On this forum, you can expect your posts to be examined for accuracy.....
The Begium govt did not lock down as quickly as they should have...Perhaps you missed the staff at hospitals turning their backs on the PM when visiting hospitals...?
NZ is not a hub, island for transiting like the UK. It was much easier to lock down.
You have constantly downplayed the seriousness potential of the virus and believe that the effect on the economy should be a higher priority.
For sure, we don't know the damage done to folks couped up.. What what you have done in Scotland, if you were running the country?
Each of them have different land mass, population, demographics, social structure, economy and politics. Comparing them simply using Covid deaths per million is way too simplistic if we want to have a real discussion. It can be used by lazy people to criticise Sweden though.
Each of them have different land mass, population, demographics, social structure, economy and politics. Comparing them simply using Covid deaths per million is way too simplistic if we want to have a real discussion. It can be used by lazy people to criticise Sweden though.
And some people seek to vilify any country who didn't adopt a strategy similar to most liberal governments. A pissing contest if you like where in reality, Sweden has performed better than some of those you wish to praise. For the avoidance of doubt, I never said Sweden got it exactly right.
Some people seek to deflect that Swedens economy shrank less than the Eurozone and was one of the best performing. Yes Q2 figures suggest its slightly behind Norway and Finland by a couple % but their growth forecast for the rest of the year and 2021 is better. It's also worth noting that Finland's economy isn't as reliant on export as Sweden and Norway has a completely different economy altogether (apples and pears old chap).
I think its serious and real but hiding in our houses and destroying our economy with no immediate promise of a successful vaccine or heard immunity makes no sense. Particularly when its the old, weak and ill who are dying. This is serious but shutting the world down and watching Netflix isn't the correct strategy.
On this forum, you behave exactly as you do elsewhere. You can expect your BS to get called out.
Belgium locked down on 18th March.The Netherlands locked down on March 15th. Sweden didn't lock down at all. Sweden performed much better than Belgium and only slightly worse than Holland. Whats your point because this makes you look silly?
With regard to your comments on the hospital staff, see below. This is why you're kept on a tight leash because you use unrelated events to feed your own agenda, hoping it wont be checked.
"It comes in response to the signing into law of a royal decree that allows for unqualified staff to undertake nursing duties amid the COVID-19 pandemic, according to local media."
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-belgian-medics-turn-their-backs-on-pm-over-covid-19-decree-11990101
So nothing to do with a late lock down then Moby. :rolleyes:
Agreed but it didn't stop the liberal press and the left from falling over themselves to praise Jacinda Arden and her left wing party. Many used her to criticise male led conservative governments around the world.
your reading skills have failed you again. I have constantly said that the virus is real but locking everyone in their homes and hiding from a virus with no vaccine and potentially no heard immunity, would only wreck our economies and cause numerous secondary deaths and destruction, post lock down. We'll then be allowed back out and nothing will have changed.
A tricky question because as we've already discussed, there is no one way to get through this. Whatever happens there will be deaths and politically motivated criticism.
Right now I think a hybrid strategy would work best. Think Sweden but with the care homes, the old, the weak and the ill shielded. Introduce social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing and limit numbers indoors. That would of course mean big changes and a new norm but we would have saved more of the vulnerable whilst avoiding the destruction of our economy.
Hind sight is a wonderful thing.
It was YOU that was and being ignorant...
Consider it the same as a handicap when playing golf.
This is one instance where the Trumpisim "It is what it is" rings true.
That is not to say the system is perfect, mainly in the way electoral districts are drawn.
The most important factor in any election is voter apathy. I imagine compulsory voting could result in vastly different outcomes and its effect would be far greater than any faults one might think exists within the current EC system.
Right now I think a hybrid strategy would work best. Think Sweden but with the care homes, the old, the weak and the ill shielded. Introduce social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing and limit numbers indoors. That would of course mean big changes and a new norm but we would have saved more of the vulnerable whilst avoiding the destruction of our economy.
Hind sight is a wonderful thing.
The number of deaths per million is, until then, the best measuring stick we have.
Looking at these two countries, more is simlar than differs as far as populations, urban/rural spread etc goes.
In the end, due to these differing methods, the US will fare much worse in terms of deaths and length of time the population and economy is affected.
Based on projections, I estimate approximately a bare minimum of 60,000 lives in the US could have been saved had the same mitigation methods used in Italy been used in the US, along with more quickly bringing infections down to a level where tracking and tracing are much more effective less negative effects on the population and economy. Considering the timing of the spread in the US it could be far more than 60 thousand lives saved, even half the running total.
But Gator and others are likely correct in stating such would not work in the US because we are too 'rowdy', 'unruly' or whatever and not because the US is somehow inherently 'different' than Italy which you seem to point at.
No! Another non-resident speaks.
A handicap system allows golfers of varying skill levels to compete on a fair and level playing field. A handicap system is more akin to affirmative action initiatives.
In contrast, the Electoral College is a key part of our brilliant Constitution to assure an elected President has wide support from across the nation, not just the high population areas.
What!!!!
There is no drawing of districts to select electors. The number of electors awarded to each state is equal to one for each senator and one for each member in the US House of Rep. The drawing of Congressional Districts certainly influences the election of members of the House House representative, yet has nothing to do with the selection of electors with the exception of Maine.
Your push for mandatory voting needs to be expanded to include an independent computer analysis of the life situation, goals and values of each person.
BC, you are not a simpleton, so why make it so simplistic when society is complex.
A more scholarly approach will consider impacts on the economy, social well being, education, etc.
You like to compare US with Italy, saying the US is slightly younger., as if it is apples and apples. Lifetstyle and diet certainly differ. Obesity has been identified as a prime preexisting condition resulting in more grave outcomes for those infected with COVID. The US rate of obesity is 36.2%, Italy's 19.9%.
Not apples and apples.
Did the producers die, or were the deaths confined mostly in the elderly or sickly? I don't know.
Let's see the math. No, just your basic assumptions.
Indeed, individualism is important to many Americans.
Rosco, you and I are thinking alike.
Rosco,
Sometime in the future, statisticians, mathematicians and scientists will sit down and figure it all out, but we are talking years, when COVID is pretty much over.
The number of deaths per million is, until then, the best measuring stick we have.
Rosco,
Whether it's the virus or your toilet, best results so far were achieved by to flushing it out.
Quick implementation of a 45-day strict national lockdown, 45 days reopening gradually, by the numbers followed by prudent measures such as masks and distancing with consumers and workers being able to 'do their thing' with lower risk. Quickest, and safest way that helps prevent relapses and allows for good tracking and tracing of any new infections.
As far as the economy goes, don't put the cart in front of the horse. Look for steady, uninterrupted recovery instead of faltering with mitigation rollbacks and high infection levels that only makes businesses and customers wary and lose confidence.
So Moby if I'm wrong, the UK is wrong, Sweden is wrong.....how would you handle the pandemic so that nobody would die and the economy and jobs were safe?
All we can do is look at things in a balanced way and be objective rather than emotional.
But its a measuring stick for deaths alone without providing any context.
I think that this is a misleading measuring stick, open to abuse by those who chose to use it for their own agenda.
My points regarding locked down Belgium performing worse than open Sweden for example, makes it impossible to argue that Sweden got it wrong. They might have but there's so many factors suggesting they didn't.
In the UK we locked down from March to June with the initial idea that we were protecting the NHS. In the end, none of the wards got anywhere near maximum occupancy
Bottom line, a person that does not get infected cannot die from the virus despite having conditions that raise risks of doing so. That is why mitigation of transmission is so important in reducing the number of deaths no matter what underlying differences may exist.
BC, no government, government instituted lock down, no mask or social distance can protect anyone from a virus. Plainly the virus doesn't recognize the governments. Mandated rules to follow isn't going to save anyone's life. They do however rob us of our liberties and basic freedoms. In time most everyone will have contracted this virus and lived through it or died.FP,
...Does the virus simply no longer like Italy? Did it just 'magically' go away? Of course not. So what's went on here that even today causes Italy to have 1/30th of deaths (population adjusted) than the USA?
Simples:
I'm correcting your Q to," how WOULD I have handled.. "
1/ Have a track 'n' trace program in place that works ( esp. at international hubs )
HOW many times has 'our' govt told us they have a plan for same ....then NOTHING?
2/ I'd have locked down earlier and made the fines higher.. Cyprus fines started from 300 Euros and one hads 2 hours to leave home and get back when shopping
Add apolitical as well.
It includes all contexts.
That will happen using any yardstick.
One clue is population density and country size (distance between cities) Belgium is a very densely and urban-centric with only very short distances between cities, much like northern Italy and NY. Higher population density, logically thinking, would allow the virus to transmit more quickly and distances between cities would affect how fast it spreads onward. This is just one of many many factors, but an important one I think.
The image below shows two of the hardest hit areas in western Europe. Belgium and parts of Germany that had high infection rates in the north and Milan/Venice/Bologna areas in the south. Both are sprawling, industrialized, very densely populated areas.
(http://i.postimg.cc/2ycRFgqb/Screen-Shot-2020-08-26-at-13-20-45.png)
BC, no government, government instituted lock down, no mask or social distance can protect anyone from a virus. Plainly the virus doesn't recognize the governments. Mandated rules to follow isn't going to save anyone's life. They do however rob us of our liberties and basic freedoms. In time most everyone will have contracted this virus and lived through it or died.
If you recall as I, the initial lock down was only to flatten the curve and slow the spread (not stop it) allow hospitals and medical systems to not be overwhelmed and to treat the infected. Just look at the conversations now. Reducing deaths is a noble goal but, stopping life to do so have never proven to work. Covid in these last 6 months has turned into a political tool. It's not about life and death anymore. It's about control
Respectfully we'll have to agree to disagree in some areas.
Indeed, and that is quite ok.
FP,
Then what do you attribute the obvious difference in the following graphs to?
Does the virus simply no longer like Italy? Did it just 'magically' go away? Of course not. So what went on here that even today causes Italy to have 1/30th of deaths (population adjusted) than the USA?
GQ,
Ridicule and denigrate as much as floats your boat. Will not change the facts.
Yesterday, EU 183 vs US 1290 deaths.
[edit] Don't forget that's with 116 million more people in EU. You can do the math.
Like I have already said before, there’s one significant legacy in this pandemic that unfortunately Italy will have to live with in infamy.
But that’s really your problem, so knock yourself out.
And are we in the US not making our own very SAD and infamous legacy...
IOW a system that scores or weighs votes from some states differently than others. A handicap, advantage, weight, whatever.
Nothing wrong with 'It is what it is' or?
Are they not both consumers? Do they not keep the buck moving along? Do people who are elderly or sickly or have high-risk conditions stop paying their rent, mortgages, stop working? Do the services and products they generate not contribute approximately 20% of our GDP or create 14% of jobs in the US?
When you show yours, I'll show mine ;)
Which is quite ok if it does not affect the individualism of others, such as infecting others with the virus by your actions or inaction. Double edged sword.
Interestingly in Sweden where we're told all hell has broken loose, the average number of daily deaths a week in 2020 is less than the average from 2015-2019.
...
In July covid was only the 8th most frequent underlying cause of death in the UK, accounting for 2.6% of all deaths and 976 people. There were almost 39,000 deaths with dementia, Alzheimers and heart disease taking the most.
More interestingly there were fewer deaths in July 2020 than in July 2019.
Interestingly in Sweden where we're told all hell has broken loose, the average number of daily deaths a week in 2020 is less than the average from 2015-2019.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1115707/sweden-number-of-deaths-per-week/
Interesting reading for many, inconvenient figures for some.
Yet, the US have no such programs like social-distancing from burger joints, Popeye Chicken masking, bacon lockdowns, etc.. We do with COVID despite the mortality rate is more than half/day that of heart disease.
Is it because heart disease is not a transmittal type of disease?
Stats :
World wide cases: 24 million
deaths: 822k .. isn't that 4% ?
US cases : 5.9 million
deaths : 182k
.. isn't that 3.2%
(Figs. as of 27th Aug, 2020)
Not forgetting those who survived as have long-term issues
Stats :
World wide cases: 24 million
deaths: 822k .. isn't that 4% ?
US cases : 5.9 million
deaths : 182k
.. isn't that 3.2%
(Figs. as of 27th Aug, 2020)
Not forgetting those who survived as have long-term issues
I find it helpful to think and breathe before thumping away at a keyboard.
We know how many covid deaths there have been.
We know how many people have tested positive from a covid test.
We don’t know exactly how many people have come into contact and been infected, with and without symptoms but we do know that there are many, many, many more globally.
Therefore if one divides the deaths by a number substantially larger than the tested positive rate, the mortality rate is very different to the one you think it is.
Think of it another way Moby, if 600 people are caught speeding in the U.K. on Thursday, that doesn’t mean only 600 people broke the speed limit. We only know how many got caught but we can guess the amount of people speeding was significantly greater.
It’s actually quite simple stuff when one thinks about it.
Unfortunately, even a calculated CFR of .000000000000001 will not help reduce the quarter-million dead or more we'll have by the end of the year.
Don't quite understand "amass greater morality rate than the US every year"..
Would be interesting to take a look at whatever source you're using.
Rosco
This is simple ..
In the USA the near 200k who died ... Do you doubt the numbers ?
I expect those that may have had it ( perhaps not even knowing it ) are far greater, but it is still VERY scary who many member seek to lessen the dangers and long-term effects, even if surviving.
In the meantime Sweden is on the UK's list of quarantine nations.
Rosco-
Just to chime in: I do not doubt, in addition to your wonderful post, that you know the difference between *mortality rate v case fatality rate*.
Obvious this isn't the case with all the members here. The US's CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is even GREATER (less virulent) than the current reported percentages by virtue of what you explained and exemplified above.
So, as a public service: The US's mortality rate is at roughly 0.05% and the CFR is at 3% +.
Great work mate!! I'm glad I didn't need to edooket you.
Italy have a larger mortality rate than the US in the years the report was reported. Damned those killer-pasta!!!
Interesting... Maybe because Italians live longer and are having fewer kids? Elderly 'top heavy' demographics would logically lend to higher overall mortality.
Certainly not the food.
Dunno... maybe a link to the reported report or something so I can understand more?
Then indeed a demographic age difference involved.
Some more info here that explains quite a bit about mortality vs other countries, unfortunately, Italy not listed but one can get a good gist of what's behind 'crude mortality' rates your link shows.
http://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/mortality-rates-u-s-compare-countries/#item-overall-age-adjusted-mortality-rate-per-100000-population-1980-2015-3
Oh, wasn't late here at all. Around here we get up fairly early 7.30ish, lunch around 2 pm followed by a nice relax/nap, up at 4 pm dinner starts around 9.30 pm or so, bedtime around 1-2am. I guess you are pretty familiar with the routine.
Although quite interesting to me that the very vast majority of western European nations have a much higher rate of mortality than the US considering,eherm, all the yadayada our *healthcare is better than yours, etc...*
FLORIDA SITUATION IMPROVED
New cases in Florida were about 10,000 per day in the beginning of August. Florida was considered one of the nation's epicenters for COVID. The question was whether this was the beginning of a large second wave or merely re-cresting of the first wave. Today, cases are less than 3,000 per day.
140,000 new cases and 4,100 additional deaths for the month of August in a state population of 22 million. My county of 1.5 million is faring better (7,400 cases and 200 deaths) as the Miami area continues to be the most impacted.
Hospitalization rates have improved as well, never approaching the capacity of the health care system. 11,400 of the new Florida cases for August required hospitalization (about 8 percent of cases).
Still too many deaths, yet life is improving:
- My germaphobic wife even allows herself to enjoy indoor restaurants (too hot for outdoor dining).
- My granddaughter is in remote schooling. The teacher monitors whether she stays in front of the screen. Because she is in kindergarten, my son must work at home to assist. Plans are to open classrooms in 2 weeks. Top of her class in math. Needs work on pronouns.
- My golfing survived, yet one foursome of 50-somethings at our club became infected. All have returned to golf.
Is this the great tragedy claimed by the Democrats?
Is IS a great tragedy - given Florida is 3.5 times worse re new cases ( at a level you seem to regard as 'good' ) than France, which is seriously considering drastic measures .
1. The number of cases is small as a percentage of the population, and majority of infections are inconsequential if not asymptomatic.
a. If elderly or having underlying conditions, definitely stay home. Depend on friends and family to provide for you.
The fact that someone with Joe's views is planning to emerge from his home says this is not a continuing tragedy.
We can't really say that with any authority. Long term consequences are not well known.
This comprises the majority of Americans.
Meanwhile, in other countries where very low levels of infections were achieved and are being maintained along with infected folks quickly found and isolated, everyone, even those with underlying conditions can circulate quite normally and in relative safety by taking simple, prudent measures. Such is too risky where very high levels of uncontrolled infections exist.
Just because something is in the "not well known" category, doesn't mean it is very harmful. Assuming everything could be bad will paralyze society.
Sounds like one of my jokes. Now I understand something may be funny to me but others not think it humorous.
Quick. Tell Joe Biden is not safe to come out of his basement. Joe's "coming out" means he will now do what the rest of us have been doing for the past 6 months.
The demographic reasons for the higher mortality in some other countries is clear. Regarding healthcare, look a the section in the link I sent entitled 'The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries'
A country can have a great healthcare system, but its value is degraded in terms of mortality if for whatever reason is not available to many. Lack of insurance and high deductibles may well be a reason for folks not being able to benefit. I do agree that if everyone could get the high level of healthcare available in the US, we might improve other areas that need improvement like maternal and infant mortality and make up for some other factors like overdose deaths that drive up our mortality figures.
Consider life expectancy as a measure of overall health and healthcare performance as well.
http://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries
He is likely being as prudent as you and I are.
I don't have a basement and doubt you are hiding in one if you do have one.
Again, we don't really know all the chronic conditions that make covid worse.
The coronavirus disarms the foot soldiers of the immune system. Scientists theorize that boosting them could fight covid-19.
Several trials are underway to see whether giving patients interferons early might prevent severe disease — or hasten recovery.
Interesting take despite the fact most Western European nation have a much higher rate of mortality.
As for healthcare and general health, a great illustration of this is what’s going on with the current pandemic, more notably CFR. Take California v Italy for example. Our positive case is much more prevalent than that of Italy but WOW look at how many more Italians didn’t fare so well under Italy’s healthcare system.
One can make a case higher population of older folks, BUT, as CDC now reports, the very vast majority of people succumbing to COVID are those with at least one underlying condition vs those who died of the virus alone.
Numbers don’t lie.
Or was it a rope-a-dope strategy and Joe will be surprisingly adroit in debating Trump?
Thank Gawd most of America continued to venture outside and work.
With hundreds of thousands of deaths in Western societies known for reliable data, surely the government scientists-statisticians have a reasonable idea. Why don't they report such information?
In the US I have seen many estimates suggesting somewhere between 40-60% of the COVID deaths were from infections originating in long term care and nursing facilities. This clearly states that advanced age is the number one risk factor.
Is it advanced age alone, or some mix of underlying conditions widely prevalent in the aged? Because the elderly have multiple conditions (folks, it's called "getting old"), maybe there is no clear pattern as to immune response: susceptibility, response to different treatments, rate of advancement of symptoms, mortality, etc.
Of which much, maybe all the difference can be accounted for by age demographics. More older people, more deaths.
CFR is a 'fuzzy' number as we do not know how many have been infected in the US nor Italy, nor any other country. We know only those that have tested positive. What might be worthwhile following up on is the CFR of a particular comparable age group but haven't seen such. Have you? Also CFR changes over time. We may know more about CFR when the virus threat is pretty much over.
Old age is an 'underlying condition' as the immune system wanes with age.
Indeed they don't. Within the next week or so, deaths per million in the US will overtake deaths per million in Italy. Currently 567 dpm (US) and 587 dpm (Italy). This is much earlier than even I expected.
BC, we agree. That is why I am bewildered by your strategy of prolonged closing the economy.
Not true. If certain population is *living longer* then it's easy to ascertain death comes earlier to those who do not.
Funny that. It used to be your gold standard. Body counts tell a different story unfortunately.
The hypothesis the number of testing increase the number of positive cases, thereby decreasing the CFR, then it still goes back to healthcare system. An efficient one will immediately mobilize all facilities to accommodate wider testing, just like our great POTUS have done. Wonderful job, Trump!
Old age is a state, not a condition. CDC reports fatality is much, much higher on those with at least one underlying condition. After all, not all the elderly stricken with the virus died.
It still doesn't change reality that Italy amass a greater mortality rate than the US. Healthcare system and all...as for Italy vs US, have you prepared those graphs of Montana vs EU yet?
You're gonna have to help me with this statement. Doesn't seem to make much sense logically. Maybe rephrase?
I can't recall having dwelled on CFR. I do recall leaning on infection data, but that was when testing criteria was pretty much same, only folks with serious symptoms going into a hospital environment. I now consider positivity rates and deaths per capita as the best indicators
Testing is most effective in the initial stages, to isolate as many as possible before they infect others.
Lockdown serves the same purpose. Long waits for test results makes testing much less effective.
Old age and underlying conditions go hand in hand.
Feel free to counter the data and analysis I presented with your own data and analysis. If you feel comparing Montana and EU is relevant, state your hypothesis and present your data.
No need. It's a very simple fact.
Oh I do...you even expressed trying to find the proper definition for it until the term became trendy..but I know conveniently moving the goal post when convenient is an exercise people resort to now and then.
Oh I agree. We thank Trump for such an amazing leader for this development.
I don't quite agree. Sheltering the vulnerable to me is so much more efficient overall - all things considered.
Again, not true.
Not for me really, I think comparing states and countries is a very futile exercise, especially when accompanied with graphs.
Maybe someone else can read your statement and help me understand? Boethius? Gator? anyone?
Of which much, maybe all the difference can be accounted for by age demographics. More older people, more deaths.
No goalposts at all, just getting definitions straight at the time.
Plenty of testing, unfortunately late in the game. We are not in 'initial stages'. Does serve well to monitor positivity though.
That is quite ok, we can agree to disagree.
Ditto last quote.
Some comparisons may be more helpful than others, depends on the context of the discussion at hand.
BTW, since you seem interested in health and mortality data, here is another source with a lot of variables listed. Be sure to click on the show 'ALL' at the bottom of the page.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health
The downside is that the vaccine won't be very effective since many people already have immunity to the harmless cold virus which would get immediately attacked when injected into bodies.
The US-EU companies developing vaccines having a similar viral vector platform are purposefully using viruses from chimps, etc. because of these questions about using human viruses.
Just what we need.
A vaccine that may turn us back into monkeys.
BillyB,
I also notice 'lands of the free' had 43k+ new cases..
India has 4 times more people.. 'only' 1.5 times more new cases....
France is setting records for new daily cases. French lawmakers rule out a blanket lockdown like the one that crushed France's economy in the Spring. UK is also experiencing another outbreak. Spain's second outbreak looks as bad as the first when it comes to cases. Italy is losing control too. Since the middle of July, America's daily case count has been decreasing. Maybe Europe should call Trump and ask for advice.
Oh BillyB
On August 31st 31,658 Sept 4th 50,183 You may call that 'decreasing' ...
The French and Spanish, NL and B also have many times the new case rate of the UK, but as I have posted, ours is going up, again, too
The French kids went back to school and more people went back to work ..
This isn't over until there's a cure/vaccine or social distancing / isolation..
'Trampu' isn't the only leader covering their ears and hoping it'll go away
On August 31st 31,658 Sept 4th 50,183 You may call that 'decreasing' ...
Bottom line we're ending up not doing better than anyone else, and with doing a lot worse than most in sight.
Although you use facts, you still deceive.
I'm looking at saving folks lives
You're looking at short term damages. Long term damages to economies and the living will be determined years from now. I wasn't serious when I said Europe should call Trump for advice. It's silly to claim bragging rights so early in this Pandemic.
America put more of our people back to work before Europe
so we may end up coming out of this economically better.
No, I chose two days that show YOU were hoping I'd not check ..
Your nations new case rate is STILL WAY above the UK's in proportion
I'm looking at saving folks lives
Indeed, we see the effect ..
You mean like Sweden has? .. Talk to Finland
Saving lives?
So you now support immediate implementation of hydroxychloroquin with Z pak?
Sweden is doing great.
Who knows how much your Globalist paymasters pay you however it's enough for you to constantly do their bidding with your false propaganda.
Sweden is doing great.
No doubt you will argue otherwise.
Sweden is indeed doing better than the US in deaths per million now. We whizzed right past them a couple days ago.
LIFE IS RETURNING TO NORMAL
Not there yet, but we have progress.
Florida, an epicenter a month ago with 10,000 new cases per day reported 1,812 new cases yesterday, only 59 hospitalizations, and 22 deaths.
Daily data can vary, yet the death totals this week are very promising: for my county of 1.5 million.
Day My County Deaths
Sep 7 0
Sep 6 3
Sep 5 1
Sep 4 2
Sep 3 2
Sep 2 3
Sep 1 0
What is the death count for Red State America?
The problem? People started behaving, normally >:(
When the virus was hitting NY hard, folks said 'but.. the US has a lot fewer deaths than other countries. When we had more deaths than other countries we said: "per capita, we're doing fine man, really great, we got this". Then the virus spread and we went to 'red better than blue' states, then 'my state' now we're down to 'my county', and always, it was 'democrat led city' problem. The slice of the American pie is getting razor-thin, very quick.
It just goes back to the old' 'If I am ok, all is ok'; 'if something's wrong, it's their fault' stinking thinking that is the very root of our American problem. If we want to tout being the Great United States of America, we also need to take responsibility for it and all of it.
Pick any red state, and I'll show you a region in Italy that is lower. Pick any county, and I'll find a province in Italy that is lower, pick a town, and I can do the same. Along those same lines, folks here could have blamed 'those damned northerners' (and yes there is a political division in Italy also) in Lombardy and Milan all day long and it doesn't change a thing.
....now headed towards being a lot worse off than almost every other country on the planet because of only one reason: We haven't learned to work together as a nation.
We here in the states will still find a way to deflect and criticize other nations response while pounding our collective chest insisting we are better.
For all the finger-pointing, criticism and even ridicule of how others were doing so badly for many months, despite the most expensive health system in the world and the 'greatest' of leaders, we now know as a fact that we were not able to do better than 'them' and are now headed towards being a lot worse off than almost every other country on the planet because of only one reason: We haven't learned to work together as a nation. Maybe we should start calling ourselves the "United only in Geography States of America" instead?
We are less free than other nations nowadays. We (US citizens) are not welcome in travel destination nations because the virus is deemed out of control here. Europeans are welcome in those same places. So looking at things that way we are less free than 'they' are.
Our last gasp excuse in these discussions seems to be: '...but we are free!!' but think about that a bit. If we no longer have the capacity to recognise and fight a common enemy, how can we call ourselves free? To do so is either ignorant or arrogant.
Again, the virus is not killing us; we are, with no one to blame but ourselves.
...all that we would do is need to change Trump to obama, and democrat to republican and it would represent what obama dealt with for 8 years. The bias you carry is noted and a part of the problem.
And what party has obstructed Trump at every turn, even starting before he was elected? I assert much of what ails the nation would be better if the Democrats worked together with their Republican counterpart as done in the long history of our nation. No need if the press will cover for you and it is deemed the only way to regain power.
A view from 30,000 feet. Come down to the ground where critical decisions were made. And rethink this attitude that it is Trump's fault.
Go to the epicenter in the Spring.....New York. In the first surge of the infection, Trump quickly expanded hospital capacity. The governor decided not to use these additional beds and instead returned recovering cases to their nursing homes. BOOM! And Biden says this is Trump's fault.
'we' as a people failing.
Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer.
He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.
Maybe people are just being people and that is not a fail.
That's your opinion, not fact. When Trump shut down flights from China, he did it to stop the virus from entering the USA for our benefit. How could he think it was to save his economy at that time? If you looked what happened in China and the data they released, the virus didn't look that bad.
You can twist things anyway you want but the facts are Red States and cities are doing better than Blue States and cities when handling the virus and their local economies aren't suffering as much.
Fauci said Trump always listened to his advice. Luckily Fauci was not advising Trump in January when he shut down people coming in from China because Fauci was against travel bans. Even the infectious disease experts from WHO advised against travel bans because it would unnecessarily hurt nations economies.
Trump did stop some folks, but quickly went into denial mode thinking it was already over.
Billy,
first and foremost, the best cure for the virus remains to prevent folks from getting it in the first place.
Billy,
first and foremost, the best cure for the virus remains to prevent folks from getting it in the first place. Anything else is just a bandaid on an existing wound until that magic bullet is found. That's not to say we don't need bandaids, but it's not the whole deal.
How long were you on lock down 60 days?
I didn't mention Trump but instead 'we' as a people failing.
But ok, what Trump did for NY is great, but it was damage control but did not address the problem of the virus spreading.
Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer. He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.
All countries had politicians and scientists working together. Those that did better were those where politicians also were able to change their views and decisions together as new data and developments emerged. Trump was not able to adapt.
45 days strict, only necessary travels to grocer, pharmacy, essential jobs and 45 days planned and monitored back to new normal.
45 days allows for 3 infection cycles of 15 days. Enough so that most all infections died out on the spot, away from others.
But Italy still has new infections. It had 1150 yesterday. In fact it is currently trending up. Perhaps lock down slowed the infections or perhaps it didn't
I wonder if this takes Italy off of BC's list of nations that don't need a vaccine.
You like to compare US with Italy, saying the US is slightly younger....... Lifestyle and diet certainly differ. Obesity has been identified as a prime preexisting condition resulting in more grave outcomes for those infected with COVID. The US rate of obesity is 36.2%, Italy's 19.9%.
One leading vaccine has been put on hold for a safety issue. They are investigating an unexplained illness. Over 100 vaccines that are currently in development worldwide, I predict only a handful will be accepted.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/oxford-vaccine-trial-on-hold-because-of-safety-issue/ar-BB18PRzl?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Next time you write something critical and it is not about Trump, please alert us because it will go under my radar.
It sure did sound like the usual anti-Trump rhetoric coming from Democrats.
Repeating what I have said frequently and seems to go over the heads of Europeans - state governors have primary responsibility for public health. The high number of American deaths that you harp about occurred mostly in blue states, where governors and mayors made bad public health decisions. Later, some red state governors made bad decisions in reopening too soon and added to the growing death toll.
Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer. He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.
Nonsense. Please summarize your evidence for each sweeping claim.
Name instances where Trump went against a consensus of scientists.
BTW, don't forget scientists too were changing their advice (e. g., no masks, then masks).
But Italy still has new infections. It had 1150 yesterday. In fact it is currently trending up. Perhaps lock down slowed the infections or perhaps it didn't
I wonder if this takes Italy off of BC's list of nations that don't need a vaccine.
Out of curiosity I crunched the numbers. Blue 731 vs Red 463 deaths per million based the 2016 state results.
There's a couple of flaws in there. Red vs Blue needs to be based on who's governor, not based off the 2016 Presidential map.
Out of curiosity I crunched the numbers. Blue 731 vs Red 463 deaths per million based the 2016 state results.
Lets make it simple and divide up the homework. The WH came out with reopening guidelines, once revised.
Can you help out and show me that states followed these guidelines and are doing so today? ohh.. wait.. seems someone has already done it. [ ;)]
If you believe Trump has urged states to follow the guidelines do a google search for terms like Trump urges states reopen etc and you'll get many news reports like this one from 26 May
President Donald Trump on Tuesday urged states to open up from coronavirus lockdowns “ASAP,” as he celebrated strong gains for U.S. stocks.
Why in the world would Trump push states to open in total disregard of his own life saving guidelines?
As I stated before, in countries that were most successful, politics followed science.
Admirable effort, compiling deaths by state and factoring populations. :clapping: :clapping: Thanks.
My eyeball guess was about 60-40, and yes the red percentage seems to be increasing. BillyB made some valid comments about mayors, governors, etc. My state of Florida is red (barely) and the majority of deaths occur in blue cities.
Keyword: Federalism.
If State Governors and mayors were subordinate to the President, Trump would order them to curb the violent protests that have waged for over 100 days. Being the President, is Trump responsible for the creation of sanctuary cities and states?
Trump listened to scientists, all scientists, not just epidemiologists, but economists, psychologists, education....He synthesized a decision balancing all considerations. And that is his job, to make tradeoffs.
BC, US citizens certainly had ample information to make mitigation decisions, which I contend was the greatest determinant of outcomes.
Again, you focus on numbers of deaths and current levels of infections. Are the death numbers properly weighted in the tradeoffs involving the economy and mental health? Also, do those countries have federal governments similar to the US, compounded by severe political division?
Yes, I do understand the concept. That is why leadership is so important in 'setting the tone' and getting states on-board with the program.
As long as tradeoffs are genuinely in the interest of the nation I have no objection. His many statements and actions that conflict even with WH guidelines does not lead me to believe it is so.
As long as my mitigation or lack thereof does not endanger others, that's fine. It is obviously not the case with this crisis. I wear a mask to help keep you from getting sick. Only works if we all are willing to participate.
Many countries have stark divisions, Italy, Belgium, Spain even Germany still to some waning extent, just to name a few.
How can one be a leader when half the nation has mutinied? Its worse than herding cats.
The President does not have the authority to order and enforce individual mitigation measures.
Some of the lack of compliance is subscribing to different opinions. Some of it is being a social animal. Some of it is residing in low infection areas. Some of it is the "home of the brave and the land of the free." Some of it is pure mix of stupidity and egotism.
Sadly, people have died, and the numbers are indeed more than a bad flu season, yet IMO not a significant uptick in mortality (even less when factoring comorbidity).
Is the degree of division in these nations the worst in 150 years?
BOTTOMLINE: Would you take a vaccine that is maybe only 60% effective and has a 1-in-10,000 chance of causing a spinal cord inflammation condition requiring 1-2 years of recovery?
How many 'deviations' to these guidelines have you observed by our self-appointed spokesperson?
Lead by example. Build trust. Has Trump been a good example for mitigation measures? Has Trump been a good trust builder or breaker?
It's the job of a leader to set simple but effective goals that make sense to all citizens and residents.
Flu season hasn't even hit yet. Fortunately, the same mitigation measures should work well against both viruses. Now ask yourself what you expect results will look like based on past performance.
In the face of a common enemy, many of these divisions were set aside with only a few outliers.
I prefer a Gestalt analysis.
He approached the pandemic as a leader focused on getting us through the pandemic without causing panic. Panic would have been worse than the added deaths. Trump is not as a medical doctor; doctors dwell on worse cases including death as a way to prepare the family. Besides, even you must acknowledge how our scientific understanding has changed, so who knew with certainty what the eventual outcomes would be. We still don't know. Yes, in so doing he admitted to "playing it down."
Individual choices trumped everything.
This fall will see an increase in COVID infections.
Maybe in Europe, but not the case here. After the failed Russian collusion investigation, and the failed impeachment, the Democrats soon stopped working across the aisle have to turn the pandemic into another opportunity to slam Trump. Never waste a crisis to spin it to tear apart the country.
We will be just over the 200k mark come October so we will have done a great job just missing the almost perfect mark. They also predicted up to 2.2 million deaths if we did nothing.
It'll take few years before we see who handled the pandemic better.
After the first wave of the Coronavirus, Italy is already borrowing billions. After the pandemic ends, you will be paying back with interest. America will collect interest from the nations we loaned money to.
I watched the White House press conference today and the WH press secretary said UK, Belgium, and France has around a 10% death rate while America has 3%. If she did case fatality rate, those numbers would be higher but the fact is America's medical system and response has kept our numbers down and it would be lower if certain boneheaded Democratic governors acted faster instead of laughing at Trump's China and Europe travel bans.
Like the case fatality rate, the term infection fatality rate (IFR) also applies to infectious disease outbreaks, but represents the proportion ofQuotedeaths among all infected individuals, including all asymptomatic and undiagnosed subjects. It is closely related to the CFR, but attempts to additionally account for inapparent infections among healthy people
Back in March, the White House said we will have just over 200,000 deaths by the 1st of October. It was a prediction that will come true.
Yep, those damned dems caused Trump to ignore the danger he was informed of, play it down, not follow the game plan and encourage others to do so as well.
We should tar and feather them all!
Are we really so weak that our citizens cannot handle the truth?
Something is very, very wrong with those defending Trump's efforts to keep us from knowing what's really happening, facts that would enable folks to make informed choices accordingly and save lives. His decision is totally indefensible.
And who did we borrow trillions from and will that not be paid back with interest?
:popcorn:
That briefing was at on 30 March. Trump 'knew' at least at the beginning of February.
What was the truth? The daily press conferences were showing varying estimates of deaths. The COVID team was saying tens of thousands, maybe more than a 100,000 would die.
extra borrowing to cope with covid-19 has nudged the total to at least 155% of GDP. [/b]
What were citizens and residents to think all the while? Heck, even other nations listening to the words of the most powerful leader on earth with the best and most vast resources of knowledge and experts at his beck and call.
Inconsistent messaging is deadly.
Speaking with Fox News’ John Roberts, Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no.
Are we really so weak that our citizens cannot handle the truth?
Something is very, very wrong with those defending Trump's efforts to keep us from knowing what's really happening, facts that would enable folks to make informed choices accordingly and save lives. His decision is totally indefensible.
We did every possible thing wrong....it is a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history!
and what is US debt to GDP ratio? 140% and growing?
If Italy owed 500 billion, is it better than America if America owed 6 trillion but is owed 9 trillion? No. America is in better financial shape than every nation on earth. We talked about this before but you still only want to talk America's debt and not what we are owed. Kinda like liberals talking about Trump's few business failures and ignoring his successful businesses which greatly outnumber the failed ones. America has controlling shares in the World Bank and IMF because we have the most money to loan. Click the photo attached to enlarge it to learn America is owed 50% more than we owe.
You pointed out debt to gdp ratio of Italy and I asked for the same for the US. Did you find it?
For the purposes of this report, U.S. portfolio investment in foreign securities includes all foreign securities owned by U.S. residents except those that are part of a direct investment relationship between the U.S. resident ownerof the foreign securities and the foreign issuer of the securities. Direct investment means ownership or control, directly or indirectly, by one person or by a group of affiliated persons, of an interest of 10 percent or more of the voting stock of an incorporated business enterprise, or the equivalent in an unincorporated enterprise.
As of 11 September 2020, 183,697 deaths have been reported in the EU/EEA and the UK
BC, it's not complicated.
By the good graces of the lordee-lou, let's pray this is a momentary blip (http://covid19-surveillance-report.ecdc.europa.eu/), if not an aberration altogether.
By the good graces of the lordee-lou, let's pray this is a momentary blip (http://covid19-surveillance-report.ecdc.europa.eu/), if not an aberration altogether.
http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea
Europe's death rate and case fatality rate are much worse than America's. Do we blame their woes on bad handling of the pandemic, worse health care system or both?
Europe's death rate and case fatality rate are much worse than America's. Do we blame their woes on bad handling of the pandemic, worse health care system or both?
Here’s Mr Klain speaking on C-SPAN last May 14, 2019 recalling how deadly efficient Obama’s administration was in handling that virus epidemic.QuoteWe did every possible thing wrong....it is a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history!
Is he saying outbreaks of virulent diseases are problematic challenges, and the health science field doesn't have perfect information about what to do? What a shock!
US 594 deaths per million
EU+UK 358 deaths per million
Vaccine news.
Kamala said she will not choose to be vaccinated (how's that for leadership?), the world needs an effective and safe vaccine.
Maybe we cannot travel unless we show proof of taking the vaccine?
What if there isn't one or ever will be? Like the mask mandate of needing one to enter a store. Maybe we cannot travel unless we show proof of taking the vaccine?
That's untrue. Look at Canada's rate of infection vs that of the US, despite the fact Canada has a slightly higher median age. Canada also has a slightly higher level of urbanization, but likely, less population density than large American cities. The difference in infection rates (20,423/1 million vs 3,664/1 million) is probably down to social distancing protocols and shutting down offices and schools in cities from mid March to June. The reason this was done was to not overwhelm our healthcare system.
Just simply not true BC. You've either had the virus or eventually you'll get it. No mask, gloves or government lock down is going to prevent that. Your government no matter where it is at can protect you from contracting the virus. The virus doesn't follow government protocols, distancing or anything else. There has pretty much been mandated lock downs world wide it has essentially achieved exactly dick
As soon as it is proved out, it will be patented in China - by the Chinese Govmt, who sill demonstrate that it is really their vaccine.
That's untrue. Look at Canada's rate of infection vs that of the US, despite the fact Canada has a slightly higher median age. Canada also has a slightly higher level of urbanization, but likely, less population density than large American cities. The difference in infection rates (20,423/1 million vs 3,664/1 million) is probably down to social distancing protocols and shutting down offices and schools in cities from mid March to June. The reason this was done was to not overwhelm our healthcare system.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
Pure conjecture.
The lock downs were supposedly to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare systems here, too. Well the healthcare system was not overwhelmed and the virus still spreads today pretty much unabated. Again, masks are no protection, the government can not protect you and it's mandates will not protect you. The world has gone ape shit crazy on numerous levels one of the most serious levels is projecting and selling voodoo as science.
Canada isn't the USA. The spread of the virus and the differences of the two countries pertaining to the virus is like apple to oranges.
'Pure conjecture' but based on sound reasoning ..
New York was overwhelmed for a time.
The world hasn't gone 'shit crazy' ..just the folks who demand their personal freedom over common sense
Pure conjecture.
The lock downs were supposedly to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare systems here, too. Well the healthcare system was not overwhelmed and the virus still spreads today pretty much unabated. Again, masks are no protection, the government can not protect you and it's mandates will not protect you. The world has gone ape shit crazy on numerous levels one of the most serious levels is projecting and selling voodoo as science.
Canada isn't the USA. The spread of the virus and the differences of the two countries pertaining to the virus is like apple to oranges.
A peer reviewed study from Cambridge University concludes COVID is not man made, and that it has not been mutating.
http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8 (http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8)
This post was composed without the aid of google.
Democratic led States California and Oregon have lifted virus related restrictions that will allow Pac-12 conference to play college football. Please don't blame Trump for not taking the virus seriously.
http://www.si.com/college/usc/football/california-oregon-lift-restrictions-to-pave-way-for-pac-12-season (http://www.si.com/college/usc/football/california-oregon-lift-restrictions-to-pave-way-for-pac-12-season)
A lot of their references to studies come from China.
A peer reviewed study from Cambridge University concludes COVID is not man made, and that it has not been mutating.
http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8 (http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8)
This post was composed without the aid of google.
Wrong. Many of the authors referenced have Chinese surnames, but the studies are multi jurisdictional.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
Some have other ideas. Some of them closer to the situation
http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html (http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html)
Google is the modern day encyclopedia. You should use it more often. In your link, I picked a Chinese name in Reference #51 which leads me to the website below. Multinational people worked on the project but it wasn't peer reviewed but the people in your link decided to use their study anyway as if it is valid.
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1.full.pdf+html (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1.full.pdf+html)
Many scientists disagree.
http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068 (http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068)
Every author in the first link works out of the Scripps institute in Florida. Every author in the second link works at the University of Minnesota.
Many scientists disagree.
http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068 (http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068)
Another fact check. Fact checkers always tell the truth!
Those authors used other people's work that wasn't peer reviewed to help form their analysis. Don't blame me for not trusting their work.
The Chinese scientist in Faux Pas's link escaped from China and she has given numerous speeches. In one speech she said she will show us how China created the virus by replicating the procedure in a lab.
Part of the problem is TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) which a lot of scientists are diagnosed with. Trump claimed he seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab. Scientists go out of their way to prove him wrong and then claim he doesn't believe in science.
Unfortunately she has been banned on social media platforms. Almost a sure sign she speaks some truth. She's not silenced, yet
Part of the problem is TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) which a lot of scientists are diagnosed with. Trump claimed he seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab. Scientists go out of their way to prove him wrong and then claim he doesn't believe in science. Of course science can happen in a lab. Nations developing bioweapons take viruses and bacteria and hope to change them into a superweapon. Speeding up evolution in a lab is one method to achieving results. Even a person who's not a scientist can see that is a possibility but there's too much anti Trump, pro China propaganda out there that claims there's no way the virus in our body could've been created in a lab. What are the chances the virus of the century showed up near the only facility in China that is qualified to house it? SARS from 2002 is still studied in Chinese labs and it has escaped 6 times. China has a poor record of keeping bacteria and viruses from escaping their labs. I'm not surprise their new Frankenstein escaped.
Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are you becoming confederate?
Politifact fact checking is calling the Chinese scientist a liar. As proof, they put a link to the Nature website which used Chinese studies to come to their conclusion the virus wasn't made in a lab. Lol. Politifact is run by the Polynter Institute which is owned by the Tampa Bay Times, the most liberal newspaper in America based on the fact they never endorse Republicans. Politifact is staffed by liberal journalists. I can fact check better than journalists who have reputations for lying on political issues.
http://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/16/li-meng-yan/tucker-carlson-guest-airs-debunked-conspiracy-theo/
Speaking of the now famous Nature website that broke the story the virus in our body didn't come from a lab, here is a 2017 Nature article saying China's New and only level 4 lab in Wuhan has plans to house the world's most dangerous pathogens including zoonotic viruses — those that jump to humans from animals, such as SARS or Ebola. The article also states SARS escaped from Chinese labs multiple times. Who here thinks China's intention is to just study viruses and doesn't have a biological weapons program?
http://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487
Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are you becoming confederate?
He probably did nail it. Does that bother you?
Much too easy to label stuff "conspiracy blah blah".
Many scientists agree so where does that leave us? IIRC I pointed out early on it had all the ear markings of a bioweapon to which you vehemently disagreed. I suspect the truth is yet to be discovered here
You're a bit of an enigma to me. Much of the time you appear to be an intelligent sort but then other times you seem to be sucking the koolaid down about as fast as they hand it to you. I know you are voting Biden but, can you tell me 3 reasons why without mentioning Trump?
Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
it would be extremely rare for an infected bat to bite a deer and that deer gets successfully infected and then a human undercooks the deer meat and gets infected by a coronavirus that mutated within the deer enough to be able to attached itself to human cells. Why wait for extremely rare events? We can speed up evolution by putting that bat coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with deer cells everyday increasing the chance of mutation within one of those petri dishes and when we have a successful mutation, we can put that mutated coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with human cells everyday until we find a coronavirus that has learned to attach itself to human cells. Then we can take that coronavirus and grow even more. We can study it to see if it can be used as a biological weapon. Every major nation is doing or done these things in their quest for biological weapons.
No, many scientists don't agree. The "source" you cited used such laudable secondary sources as a Linkedin article by a scientist who is not an expert in the field, a blog article, and an article by an anti GM foods website for her paper. Her paper is not peer reviewed, and none of her co authors have any published works.
Please point me to peer reviewed studies. The Royal Society synopsis I linked (paper also is online) is peer reviewed.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
Unfortunately she has been banned on social media platforms. Almost a sure sign she speaks some truth. She's not silenced, yet
Twitter has suspended the account of a Chinese virologist who has claimed that COVID-19 was manufactured in a laboratory.http://nypost.com/2020/09/16/twitter-suspends-virologist-who-claims-covid-19-was-made-in-lab/
Dr. Li-Meng Yan, a former researcher at the Hong Kong School of Public Health, went dark on the platform after she accused China of covering up evidence (http://nypost.com/2020/09/11/chinese-virologist-says-she-has-proof-covid-19-was-made-in-wuhan-lab/) that the deadly virus came from a lab in Wuhan.
“They don’t want the people to know this truth. Also, that’s why I got suspended, I got suppression [and] I am the target that China Communist Part wants to [sic] disappear,” she told Fox News host Tucker Carlson (http://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus) on Tuesday.
Carlson responded, “I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt so I’m going to assume you’re not an anti-Chinese racist so it’s not clear why Twitter would shut you down or why you’re being ignored by the rest of the US media.”
Twitter declined to comment to The Post on Wednesday.
1. Expanded health care coverage
2. Better job handling Covid-19
3. Re-establishing relationships with our allies.
He doesn't want to be a god but is actually a little boy, unlike his opponent.
Yes many do agree. Your contention that a few academics in Cambridge who never actually investigated the virus know more that Dr Li-Meng, a top Virologist in her field, who did indeed investigate the covid-19 in and at the lab in Wuhan China. Yeah let's just discount her as a quack because she doesn't follow the same narrative as your beloved scientist.
Nah, I won't be pointing you anywhere. You stick with your version and I'll stick with mine
How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist? Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that? No, I didn't think so.
How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist? Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that? No, I didn't think so.
At the time of the COVID-19 pandemic she was employed at the Hong Kong School of Public Health, University of Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hong_Kong) (HKU), conducting research specialised in virology and immunology.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Meng_Yan#cite_note-8)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Meng_Yan
To filter out the massive articles about her in 2020, do a Google search of her name ...Boe consistently reports that she does not [seemingly] utilize google.
Boe consistently reports that she does not [seemingly] utilize google.
Because that is, in fact, what it is.
...“overwhelming evidence” that “pre-planted explosives . . . caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings.”
Maybe on another thread...but quickly, assuming they know how long it'll take, and what needs to be done, to plant explosives for a controlled demolition of a building, much less buildings like the Twin Towers (110 stories high - employs about 50,000+ employees PER building - and additional foot traffic of about a quarter of a million visitors) every single day and no one noticed!!!
That's a lot of explosives, wires, etc all through 110 stories high of corners, struts, columns, etc...
Confederate, let me know how they managed this as it would be a revelation how they got that accomplished (not focusing on you, just the idea you threw out there with this).
add: To make this even more impressive - have a couple of 737s hit the two buildings precisely the exact floors where explosives weren't drilled into or otherwise the fires would've prematurely detonated the plugs and that would've been a dead giveaway. Even if everyone simply ignored the explosion..
You're being intellectually lazy. Sounds like the earlier talking points on MSNBC. Trump did an excellent job on the handling of covid.What exactly do you compare his handling to? Re-establishing relationships with our allies? Please expand on that. You mean the ones Obama mishandled? Like the Paris agreement, Iran treaty or the TPP?
Trump lied to the public on several occasions
he wanted to re-open the country way too early and he still has his rallies where few of his adorers wear masks because he's politicized mask wearing.
He constantly contradicts the experts.
His new expert is an expert on MRIs and has no experience with pandemics but he agrees with the president and that's all that matters, another 'yes man' for Trump's administration.
He has done and is still doing a shit job with Covid.
Today, the US will surpass the UK in the number of deaths per million.
We all know there's a risk dying in a car wreck yet we continue to drive anyway.
There is a big difference between virtually necessary risks and discretionary risks.
For instance: I fly to various cities and countries. However, in those places (or actually any location) I will not ride on Ferris Wheels, take a cable car up a mountain side and other such.
My hosts often point out how I am inconsistent by flying, yet refusing to ride on Ferris Wheel.
But they do not understand the difference between virtually required risk taking and optional risk taking.
Similarly, I will put my money at risk in a well diversified Mutual Fund, but I will not (I did so earlier in life) put my money in a 'hot tip' heard at the barber shop.
How do you do on the Merry-Go-Round?
What lies?
No he did not. He wanted the country open as soon as possible. It is only too soon to your liberal MSM
That is just a lie and you have nothing to substantiate that. He is listening to experts 24/7. While you might think the experts are president, they are not. Trump is and whatever decisions are to be made are his
Who exactly is an expert on pandemics and what qualifies them as an expert?
Compared to what or whom? You're drinking the Kool aid brah #walkaway
I'm sure you can easily answer your own questions, I'm not wasting my time.
I already know the answers. I also know you do to but are afraid to answer them. Doing so would force you to question what you so blindly follow
I'm not the blind follower here.
One of the things we did right was very early cut off travel from China to the United States. Because outside of China, where it originated, the countries in the world that have it are through travel, either directly through China or indirectly from someone who went someplace and then came to that particular country. Our shutting off travel from China, and more recently travel from Europe, has gone a long way to not seeding, very, very intensively, the virus in our country!
These guys are (numb)nuts! They're so full of it, they are arguing amongst themselves what to demonize our great POTUS on...
So now the travel Ban (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/517106-gates-says-travel-ban-made-covid-19-worse-in-us) was the wrong thing to do...LMAO!
Because the Chinese knew that What had a problem....
Yes, that is why the Chinese restricted domestic travel.
Knowing it was a huge problem, why allow international travel from Wuhan.
The gift that keeps on giving. LMAO!http://youtu.be/8XwgixmCU34
Good ol’ Sleepy Joe.
Also, the small number of infections indicates how rare it is to become infected.
Well, at least Fauci is standing up well to GOP pressure, while Birx reportedly is having some difficulty to toe Trump's line since Trump found someone else that better fits his agenda.
The Pfizer vaccine has the furthermost progress of the Operation Warp Speed development candidates. It is reporting some early results from its Phase 3 trial involving 44,000 volunteers. The goal of the trail is to make efficacy determinations upon reaching a total of 164 virus infections among the 44,000 subjects. To date, only 32 infections have occurred, and an undisclosed number of those are mildly symptomatic. Also not disclosed is how many of the infections were in the placebo group vs. the dosed group.
Making any efficacy determinations before reaching the goal of 164 infections is debatable. Also, the small number of infections indicates how rare it is to become infected.
What do you mean?
Holy Infection Insertion, Batman! From curfew to calling in the army?!?!?
:ROFL:
But I thought they were so *unselfish* and disciplined with their lockdown programs over there!!!
LMAO! This virus is certainly humbling, isn't it? It's like golf in the way that it gives folks pause and refrain from chest beating too much!!![/size][/font]
Have you been watching the hearings? What news do you watch or read?
Not enough data to support 'rare'.
I wonder how many volunteers come from the age group that are most likely to die from? I don't expect a lot of older people volunteering knowing the vaccines may not work or may not protect a high percentage of people.
You're the one claiming Fauci is standing up to GOP pressure. What are they pressuring him about?
Not much news. Some entertainment however, such as Sen. Rand Paul saying Sweden's herd immunity strategy is working and Fauci replying, "If you believe that Senator, you are alone."
Well the Coronavirus numbers here in the UK are now up around the numbers in the first wave. We're now running into winter and the gov's 'eat out to help out' scheme and letting Brits go abroad on holiday is looking a big mistake in terms of raising virus figures once more. In Scotland, Glasgow uni has had to go into quarantine measures after 126 students tested positive after fresher week activities. They go back a week sooner than English uni students so we are likely to see outbreaks at English Universities in the week to come.
This winter is already looking like it could be a bad one and all we have to show for it is having to see the horror of fat girls in g-strings on beaches at home and abroad >:(
Florida may see the number of daily positive cases start to uptick. I say this based on my son having to attend three "gatherings," e. g., a mandatory continuing education seminar . He says the percentage of people wearing masks has dropped considerably from just a few weeks ago. Most stores still require masks to enter.
The increase and now massive testing it would seem is going to drive up the numbers. However, in consideration of all of the preventative measures taken, do you get the feeling someone is pulling the strings on the numbers as far as "upticks" go? They said there would be one in July, there was then they said there would be one when schools opened in the fall, there is. Now they're saying there will be another massive one with the winter flu season. They have a firm grip on the fearmongering and refuse to let it go.
Florida citizens are in mitigation fatigue.
That's why I favor a shorter strict lockdown that's effective to get numbers down to good test n trace levels rather than dragging things on month after month..
Here the after summer wave has hit, but still manageable with low positivity rates, much like the US NE states.
FP,
I wouldn't say ineffective at all, just imperfect as there are still those that do not abide by the rules.
Here it has been quite effective, but still not perfect. At least it's not much of a political deal but instead simple complacency.
The lock downs, masks, gloves, sanitizing measures and social distancing has proved ineffective. The spikes continue. Why does this factoid go unmentioned?
Well old mobers strikes again, you are in agreement with him over masks.
They certainly have you believing it is effective. I'll give you that. You might ask what would happen if we didn't take these measures? We'll never know, will we? They tell us covid is in the finest of mist and can remain airborne for hours. This tosses out the distancing, doesn't it? n-95 and surgical masks are at best 12% effective. That means it's 88% ineffective. Most cloth facial coverings are 100% ineffective. Never has the CDC called for gas mask and hazmat suits which then would only be about 80% effective. We're being sold a bill of goods BC. As bright as you are, I don't know how you can miss that.
Spikes and increasing infections would have happened without the submission to the junk science side of it, dont'cha think?
Perhaps the worst side effect of COVID-19 is the total abandonment of logic and reason by many, many people in our nation. And simultaneously, those same people behave with an insane level of condescension while doling out their lessons.http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058
http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058 (http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058)
The same kind of people [including Joe Biden] that blame Donald Trump for the 200K who have succumbed to the virus.
Remember that millions of Americans were to die when the pandemic report surfaced?
Correction. Biden declared 2 million US dead due to COVID-19.
I don't perceive realistic expectations of a properly tested vaccine NOT being available soon in any numbers as 'fear mongering' .
It is being honest.
Gator,
Warp speed is about supporting pre-production and taking on part of the risk before trials are over.
Most nations are doing it.
Yes as reflected in my posts months ago.
The key part is the phramaceutical companies are doing the work under the auspices of the FDA. Because of govt funding, the companies are investing more money when normally they would proceed over years to reduce investment risks.
Please tell Kamala that Trump and his West Wing are not doing the R&D, nor approving it.
Who does more of it? Who does it better?
I will not ask who does it faster because we know the answer is Russia.
When consulting for a client in a jam, I would say to them: "Fast, low cost, high quality. Pick any two."
IIRC the same companies in 'warp' are also being supported by others.
Approving and lowering the bar for approvals are two different things.
You are probably faster with a calculator than I. As for more, I would say 'substantial', as for better, pharma company A, supported by multiple countries won't sell different qualities.
Indeed, phase III cut out completely, whereas Trump wants to shorten it.
Looks like for some, it will be lower price for same quality. On a per dose basis, Europeans will be paying less at least last time I looked.
Yes, in exchange for advanced purchases to be delivered when regulatory approvals for use are granted.
As part of Warp Speed, the Phase 3 trials are shortened, but in no instance less than two months. The pharma companies are still concerned with liability and nothing will compel them to deliver if their records and data show it is not safe.
Of course not. The relative contributions by different nations can be estimated by quantity of their preordered doses. And not all nations are participating in all vaccines. I believe the US is participating in seven, and many more vaccines than that are being researched around the globe.
The overall price they will pay to acquire the doses has not been revealed, but under an earlier deal struck in June with AstraZeneca by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, all members of the EU, AstraZeneca agreed to sell 300 million doses for €750 million.
AstraZeneca has already agreed the supply of 300 million shots of the same vaccine to the United States for $1.2 billion
A European-led fund-raising effort in May brought $8 billion in pledges from the world’s governments, philanthropists and leaders for coronavirus vaccine research, even with the United States sitting out the conference.
Germany recently took a 23 percent stake in a German firm, CureVac, that President Trump once tried to lure to American shores in hopes that its vaccine, if successful, would be distributed in the United States first.And there is much much more.
Not the full truth. I understand a minimum of two months has been established, and it will be longer because
not all available doses will be administered immediately. The roll out of all doses could take months, but loess than a year for the entire nation. The roll-out varies by vaccine. A couple require -40C storage.
You always have for essentially all pharmaceuticals, something that Presidents and Congress have complained about for a long time, yet never changed the policy. Some reduced pricing is needed for less wealthy nations.
The European Commission is committed to ensuring that everyone who needs a vaccine gets it, anywhere in the world and not only at home. No one will be safe until everyone is safe. This is why it immediately responded to the WHO's call for action and has raised almost €16 billion since 4 May 2020 under the Coronavirus Global Response, the global action for universal access to tests, treatments and vaccines against coronavirus and for the global recovery.
Some interesting figures to fiddle with. Some quick head math seems to show the EU, Germany, and others are getting a pretty good deal or?
The concern with Trump is his undue influence efforts over CDC in the issuance process and approval of EUA's
...the EU has addressed these aspects via COVAX..... keep in mind the US is (again) not participating in a global effort, and consider the purchasing power and leverage vs Trump's 'wheeling and dealing'. Which do you think will be more effective down the road?
But lets put politics aside for a moment and look closely at the best and most effective overall approach to vaccine development....
This is a huge missed opportunity for the US to lead the charge against this virus, and benefit. Instead, we have relegated ourselves to the bleachers on the world stage, viewed upon in dismay by the rest of the world for our self-serving posture.
It is truly, and very SAD.
Politics somewhat aside, would you agree or disagree with my assessment?
The Democrats' political campaign of fear mongering has already cast doubt on the vaccines to be available soon. Pence told Kamala during the debate that her campaign of fear mongering discourages use of vaccines and is "unconscionable." And I agree, given so many ill-informed Americans already are averse to any vaccination.
Will the Democrat's same politics of fear be applied to the two therapeutics that prompted a remarkable recovery by Trump? Is this not indeed "unconscionable?"
Kamala Harris said she would trust a vaccine if it was back by the scientific community, no fear mongering going on there. The Democrats want scientific fact, not Trump's opinion.
Human-to-human transmission is occurring and a preliminary R0 estimate of 1.4-2.5 was presented. Amplification has occurred in one health care facility. Of confirmed cases, 25% are reported to be severe. The source is still unknown (most likely an animal reservoir) and the extent of human-to-human transmission is still not clear.http://www.who.int/news-room/detail/23-01-2020-statement-on-the-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)
Trump opined about the benefits of Regeneron's antibody cocktail, a drug not yet granted EUA by the FDA.
If infected Democrats will not take it, that means more infected Republicans will survive because the number of doses is very limited, certainly not enough for every patient requiring supplemental oxygen.
(http://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/TChF-XbSlcKyjP-rYCTEiNc49Em2uSZ1fTKaBecPKDu2pFXQsRC10fev9rlSU8BhLICbeHk9KxIv8EG5XwNeJstFXSvu-eiPQ09d87OsbaJMbQvttwuQK3pEIOuSwPdXMDBA33cyMMEBPVIIyabvaYcdSQEYyINXMh7eF5flzQ7Datuh8aB1=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/12/multimedia/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES-articleLarge.png)
NY Times
This says to me we ill not shake the disease until we have a vaccine.
“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.
“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”
Regarding the US approach, Trump very early recognized vaccines are the only answer to the pandemic. He promptly started a private-public collaboration to develop the vaccines at "warp speed". And many months later, you find fault with his initiative?!
Biden and your party found fault with Trump's travel restrictions in January. Who was correct?. Halting travel was prudent, however, the damage had already been done. A de-facto stop was already occurring with airlines no longer flying.
You found fault with Trump not disclosing to the public in the early months haw dangerous the virus could be. If Trump had been completely candid, he would created a panic. I question how many essential workers would have reported to work. Imagine life in NYC or anywhere with limited availability of food stores, pharmacies, etc.
Three explanations:
1. Lower prices has always been the case for EU for medicines. Canada also has lower prices. That's what happens in a laissez-faire vs. big government, socialistic societies. In one way it is good because the high US pricing has indirectly been subsidizing lower prices to less wealthy countries for a long, long time. It is surprising that EU chose not to contribute but to suck on the same teat of subsidies.
“The middlemen became very, very rich. Whoever those middlemen were – and a lot of people never even figured it out – they’re rich. They won’t be so rich anymore,”.
DJT
2. AstraZeneca is actually a consortium of Europe pharmaceutical companies and Europe university, so Europe needs to get an edge. The other leading vaccines are being developed mostly by US companies. I do know that the US has already paid for much of the supply.
3. AZ vaccine is inferior to developing US vaccines according to Nancy Pelosi (ha ha) - read more about that and you will begin to understand how wacky our Speaker can be.
CDC has nothing to do with EUA's. Regarding Trump, as is his nature he did not hide in the basement but pushed for action. Regardless, the FDA will make the safety decisions as the process was designed decades ago.
Splendid, lets do that. However, after saying you are putting politics aside, in your next breath you criticized Trump's policies. You are hopeless.
It is good that Europe is working together. I say that because you need to just to keep up.
Yes it is to be mired in fearmongering, spying on the President, lying to the public, obstructing the President, fomenting hatred....all because of the left's great compulsion to gain power, regardless of the costs.
US man gets COVID twice and it was worse second time....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54512034
Average life expectancy in the UK is 81 years.
As for timelines, it is going to take one hell of an effort to get enough vaccines approved, produced and distributed.
It will be interesting to see when I can mark 'get vaccinated' on my calendar and compare with yours to see if there is any great difference and judge the true effect of 'warp speed'.
Would our response have been any different had WHO known more? WHO did indicate human to human transmission on 22 January.
Who cares about Amazon Prime Day, it should be 'Go get COVID day and it won't cost a dime!!! It'll make you younger, stronger and immune!
Trump touting it is totally irresponsible.
The grey area is what we (in the US) should really be worrying about. Yes, a vaccine is needed, however, we're looking at least another 6 months for general distribution to even begin.
J&J IIRC the largest trial to date was paused to investigate an 'event'. Hopefully, again, an unrelated anomaly, but it is good these companies are not skipping steps and their own guidelines.
It should be a reminder though that 'it ain't over till it's over'.
My point, too. Makes me even more upset with China.Looking for excuses to be angry with china, because they are beating us in business. Our response hasn't worked so well, our populace is older and vulnerable.
Trump's approach was seeking a one-stop solution, underestimating the complexity of what needed to happen between 'now' and 'then' to save lives. It continues today.
Governments simply announced that deliveries would be guaranteed and things quickly normalized.
How would that be related to COVID vaccines and world health efforts?
Did you not hear what Kamala said about trusting medicine Trump touted?
How does the not-so-informed, average American react to such?
Pandemic era golf beckons. Enjoy your day.
PAGE
No, no, you’re Senator Harris to me. For life to get back to normal Dr. Anthony Fauci and other experts say that most of the people who can be vaccinated need to be vaccinated, but half of Americans now say they wouldn't take a vaccine if it was released now. If the Trump administration approves a vaccine, before after the election, should Americans take it and would you take it?
14:10 HARRIS
If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it.
For the world, yes. For the US, sooner.
Excellent comparison. Even a few months is important. However, that still leaves open the question of percentage immunized when many stateside citizens will decline receiving it.
Earlier, China knew so much more. WHO should have been stronger on quarantining China itself. It was a novel respiratory disease, so transmission via air pathways are the first assumptions.
.....still interjecting your fearmongering political spin. I thought we were trying to set politics aside.
Why not contrast the mindset of Trump vs. Democrat leaders in those early weeks before COVID ravaged our country?!?! You know why.
Blind partisan opinion.
Were EU governments telling essential workers it was highly transmissible and very deadly, and any type of contact outside the home could kill them?
More politics.
99% of those people have recovered, many without symptoms.
Same as what happened with AstraZeneca trial. Liability compel pharma companies to proceed with caution.
My point, too. Makes me even more upset with China.
WHO could and cannot 'quarantine' China any more than they can quarantine the US. They can only provide nations information they compile based on what they see/hear in other nations. Yes, China was remiss or negligent by not passing on more information of what was really happening.
They knew only what we all knew at the time. Trump likely knew more. Had he done so, informing Dems and the public better, who knows what might have happened? We can only guess.
BC,
You continually ignore the pink elephant in the room in giving the WHO a pass seemingly for a chance to blame Trump. Most all evidence points to China knowing there was a problem as early as December perhaps earlier. The WHO was on the scene. What they chose to believe from the Chinese commies or what they knew to be true then we'll likely never know. What we do know is China was suppressing information on a virus before it became a pandemic. It appears they were to some degree aided by the WHO. If anyone should have instituted lock down and stopped travel it would have been China. If that had happened in December the entire world response could have been different, the spread slower and infections in a much smaller number.
Trump had no oversight of Wuhan province, the Wuhan lab or the CCP. Why you blame Trumps response as "the" problem is a mystery. When one adds the timing of the virus, the originating country along with who may have benefited the most from such a pandemic all signs point to China.
We've heard a lot of criticism from the media about Trump's handling of the Coronavirus. Can anybody tell me what Biden will do differently? What is his plan? What is the estimated lives that he will save with his plan? What is the estimate on how much better the economy will be with his coronavirus plan? The only thing I've heard him say is he'll listen to science so he will let scientists run the country until the pandemic is over? Will he let Kamala run the country after the scientists are done?
The first thing he'll do is help convince folks to put on a fucking mask in public and that by doing so tens of thousands of lives could be spared.
FP,
I don't dispute China not FUBAR'ing it. Have stated this several times.
It ain't like a neighbors dog that poops in your driveway where you ask the neighbor to come to clean it up. Once a virus hits our shores, it's our problem and the buck stops on the president's desk.
As to WHO there is quite a bit of details at the link below.
http://apnews.com/article/3c061794970661042b18d5aeaaed9fae
As for Trump, citizens, residents, mayors, governors should have known sooner what the impact of the virus could be.
It was up to Trump to tell Americans what we might be facing and how serious he thought it would be, which we now have on tape. Instead, he decided to do otherwise, to puh puh the virus down the road. Unfortunately, the virus does not speak English and did not heed his command. We deserved to hear the truth. I don't buy the panic excuse.
I have THREE biz partners that most certainly are better qualified that you or I....
We have NO idea how long having antibodies lasts and how different people can be more open to second dose ..
In Volgograd, I know of three generations who have tested positive and are asymptomatic - aged 57 down to 7 ... Would you 'argue' this means COVID is 'nothing to worry about' ?
Trump banned travel from China in January. People think his actions was so strict, it had to have been racist. Democrats didn't sound the alarm because they were too busy impeaching.
People were fighting over toilet paper and you want Trump to get people more worried. The truth wouldn't help anybody because there was not enough masks to go around. You had the truth in January. A city in Italy decided to have a hug a Chinese day to counter Trump's racist travel ban. Did you choose to believe those politicians or Trump. We had truth revealed in early February on this forum page 1 of this thread. I was warning people this is bad. The news said China was quarantining tens of millions of people and Trump did a travel ban. Hello!!!! This wasn't the flu we're dealing with. Democratic leaders have access to the same intelligence Trump did and what did they do to sound off warnings? I was telling people the importance of masks and got ridiculed by people on your side of the political fence. There was enough info for people to be warned. Some people panicked, others ignored it. Did you ignore it? That is on you, not Trump.
Billy,
I recognize you were sounding the alarm all along. Many of the things you said might happen with the virus rang true with time, even when I had doubts very early on. IIRC you got a lot of naysayers and even still do from time to time. What a president says or not has the power to shifts economic markets and quite a few members here hung on every word. Nahh... won't happen, even as it was very 'happening' here in Italy, won't happen here until it hit NYC. Thumbs up for trying though.
You keep bringing this up pretty much as the sole argument for what Trump did. The 'one-shot' cure if you will for all that ails his further response. What else did he do to protect us? Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying, but the massive effort he made to protect folks from getting infected and dying.
There was enough evidence out there to see this was going to be big, even with China deceiving us. I've never said anything bad about Obama's handling of the swine flu. I never worried about the swine flu, various bird flus, SARS and MERS. You can search my posts. This virus was different. The behavior of the virus was different and the fact China quickly locked down more people than the entire population of Italy and other clues should be enough to figure out this was going to be a bad one that would change the way we live.
Your hate for Trump is strong enough to blind you to see all what he has done. He didn't one shot the virus with a China travel ban. After that he alarmed the world again by banning travel from Europe. He went around the world trying to buy up everything for America's benefit. Remember you were mad at Trump for buying up all the PPE and trying to buy up a German vaccine company? He enacted war powers to force companies to make masks and ventilators for America first. He gave daily briefings to educate Americans about the virus and what government was doing. Some liberal networks stopped showing the daily briefings because they didn't want to give the impression Trump was doing the right thing. Do they really care about saving lives or making Trump look bad. Trump let Dr Fauci, Brix, the Surgeon General and many other experts speak at the daily briefings. He gave trillions to American and foreign companies to find treatments and vaccines. He appointed a task force led by VP Pence to give governors anything they need. All that and America's economy is turning out to be less damaged than our allies.
Biden, from his basement, talked to his science and medical experts about the coronavirus. Not once did Biden speak up to educate Americans more than Trump already has. He complained about lack of masks but Trump allowed governors to make decisions on masks. If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.
What else did he do to protect us? Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying, but the massive effort he made to protect folks from getting infected and dying.
Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying
If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.
FP,
Sorry for your problems with the link, it's the same link that comes up when shared via email or link. Maybe someone else can open it? In any case, don't shoot the messenger.
As for a purposeful 'unleashing' of the virus, you seem convinced, I'm not and that's fine. We're not right nor are we wrong with our thoughts posted here. Best leave it at that.
As for Trump, citizens, residents, mayors, governors should have known sooner what the impact of the virus could be. It was up to Trump to tell Americans what we might be facing and how serious he thought it would be, which we now have on tape. Instead, he decided to do otherwise, to puh puh the virus down the road. Unfortunately, the virus does not speak English and did not heed his command. We deserved to hear the truth. I don't buy the panic excuse.
The remaining 'beef' and what Trump should have done instead have been stated before in the previous 70 some pages in this thread.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/10/13/trump-rally-supporters-covid-19-sots-tuchman-ac360-vpx.cnn
Watch when the lady is asked what she would do if Trump asked the audience to wear a mask. His supporters, mayors, governors etc would listen and do it as well. He could have suggested mask mandates all over the place and we'd have 'em without a fuss. Many thousands would still be alive today, and many thousands would not die in the future.
...Biden, from his basement, talked to his science and medical experts about the coronavirus. Not once did Biden speak up to educate Americans more than Trump already has. He complained about lack of masks but Trump allowed governors to make decisions on masks. If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.
BC, as I said I couldn't read it. It started to load then went blank each of the 3 times I tried. I likely have read it but couldn't be sure so I can't use it as any fact to back your position. But I can tell you that I have worked with the AP for many years and witnessed a once proud and stellar institution for factual news has sunken to levels I never dreamed possible. Even before Trump ran for president the AP had been slipping away from control of it's membership and to the whims of the leftist narrative. It has truly fallen and can be held to the low esteem of the NYT.
I am not convinced that the virus was purposefully unleashed nor am I convinced that it wasn't. China's action along with the WHO's lack of action in the time frame discussed certainly is suspect. Was it attack on the world economy as well as the world health, who knows? We know it came from a lab in China. How, why when and where is not yet determined
Perhaps we should all have known sooner IF China and the WHO had acted responsibly. Trump actually took the first action of most nations when he banned first China then all international travel. At the time the world only knew of the virus but not about the virus. China likely knew then. The WHO should have known and likely did but stood steadfast protecting China rather than the world. We heard the truth from Trump as he knew it. You seem to be at issue with the manner in which he framed and told it to the public. You can disagree with that if you wish but in hindsight it doesn't make you right, either. The truth at that time wasn't known by anyone other than CCP and the WHO
That has nothing to do with nothing brother. If Trump had suggest everyone wear a mask there is zero evidence even one life would be saved. If he had done what Biden is saying he will do, mask mandates and lock downs deaths will likely go up. Let's explore the masks for a second. The CDC and the WHO both issued statements in March that the masks will not protect us from the virus. Why? Because the virus is microscopic aerosol meaning it will move with airflow. It is not splatter which is what the masks are designed to hinder. That being surgical masks, the trendy cloth masks won't even stop that. Unless you're donned in a gas mask and a hazmat suit, you have no protection. It's a false sense of security. The choice to wear a mask is and should remain a personal one
Speaking of Scientist v Political 'popularity' ..
http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/ (http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/)
UK government ignored scientists’ advice on ( another ) lockdown
United States -4.3% Japan -5.3% Germany -6.0% Canada -7.1% United Kingdom -9.8% France - 9.8% Italy -10.6% Spain -12.8% |
I have mentioned the tradeoff between lockdown and the economy.
IMF yesterday released its latest information about growth projections.
The projected decline in economic growth for the year 2020 among the advanced economies is as follows:
United States -4.3%
Japan -5.3%
Germany -6.0%
Canada -7.1%
United Kingdom -9.8%
France - 9.8%
Italy -10.6%
Spain -12.8%
Economists frequently do cost-benefit analysis about the ratio of cost to lives saved. It seems insensitive, yet it is a frequently cited measurement. One can see the tradeoff.
BTW, the one economy that did not decline is China, growing at 1.9% in 2020.
I have mentioned the tradeoff between lockdown and the economy.
IMF yesterday released its latest information about growth projections.
The projected decline in economic growth for the year 2020 among the advanced economies is as follows:
United States -4.3%
Japan -5.3%
Germany -6.0%
Canada -7.1%
United Kingdom -9.8%
France - 9.8%
Italy -10.6%
Spain -12.8%
Economists frequently do cost-benefit analysis about the ratio of cost to lives saved. It seems insensitive, yet it is a frequently cited measurement. One can see the tradeoff.
BTW, the one economy that did not decline is China, growing at 1.9% in 2020.
Where are the stats for Sweden?
Where are the stats for Sweden?
Japan also did not do lockdowns.
Where are the stats for Sweden?
Rising fast .. their rates the same as the UK's in the last two days ( proportionally)
Finland locked down and saw it's QTR2 output fall more than 2 percent less than Sweden ..
Confederate asked about IMF's projection of economic decline (the subject of what he quoted), specifically for Sweden. "Rates?" Rate of COVID infections was not mentioned by IMF.
BTW, Finland vs. Sweden is like South Carolina vs. Michigan.
My 'bad' .. I simply read the title of the thread and assumed we'd be talking COVID not economies
FI / S are neighbouring nations sharing many similar facets - S.Carolina and Michigan are indeed diverse ;)
Fact is Sweden did not lockdown, killed more citizens AND suffered a worse economic downturn that FI ... S relies on other nations for trade as does FI
We were talking about the relationship among COVID, its mitigation and the economy. The three are not independent variables.
I was talking about the comparable size of the economies of these two nations and two states, i. e. none is very large. FYI, SC and MI both speak the same language. Seriously, their economies are similar. The mitigation efforts of both differ.
Swedes make fun of the Finns as not being smart. How about other Nordic countries? How does Sweden compare with UK, etc. based on population?
Confederate asked about IMF's projection of economic decline (the subject of what he quoted), specifically for Sweden. "Rates?" Rate of COVID infections was not mentioned by IMF.
I believe something like this is what Confederate asked about.
BTW, Finland vs. Sweden is like South Carolina vs. Michigan.
Notice how he jumps into a thread without reading what's above, doesn't bother to get the context correct, posts a bunch of nonsense and then continues to argue nonsense?
The guy is a complete waste of time.
Sweden now a Coronavirus success story.
Editorial
http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-sweden-now-a-coronavirus-success-story-2141207/ (http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-sweden-now-a-coronavirus-success-story-2141207/)
It took a lot of work and time by the moderators to improve the place. So lets keep trying for civility.
Borrowed from MSN, these guidelines should be helpful as a reference source:
- Recognize a person’s right to advocate ideas that are different from your own
- Discuss policies, issues and ideas, not people - and especially not individual RWD members
- Disagree without being disagreeable
- Use civil and helpful, not hurtful language (such as name-calling)
- Respectfully respond to differing points of view
- When unsure of what another poster means by what they have written, ask for clarification
- Realize that what you write and what people understand you have written may be different. Be patient and explain yourself again if other posters misinterpret your meaning - particularly here at RWD where members have a variety of native languages, yet are doing their best to communicate in the common language of American English
- Recognize that sometimes people can and must agree to disagree
- If you are not sure what you are about to say is civil, find another way to say it or let it go
- Reliance on labels for groups of people is often the first step toward the negative. Whenever possible, avoid them. They rarely add to the quality of any discussion
- Put yourself in the other person's shoes as best as possible, to see things from a different perspective - theirs
- Give an additional benefit of doubt to a person whose first language is not English
Any others you would like to see added to the list?
- Dan
Sweden is a success. Here's some key facts about the country that didn't lock down.
Population - 10.23 million
Covid deaths - 5,910
Deaths 70+ - 5247
Deaths under 50 - 76
Silly stuff like comparing Sweden to Finland Q2 is desperate and their economic growth for Q4/2021 is better than almost every other country.
Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous.
Swedens economy will naturally suffer more because its a larger exporter and its customers were shut....pretty simple stuff.
As of today there are less excess deaths in Sweden than there was last year and less people are dying daily compared to last year. Sweden is also on track to having fewer die this year than almost any other over the last 10 years.
People need to look at the facts before making ridiculous statements based on political ideology and emotion.
Finland and Norway had TEN times less deaths and Denmark 6 times less .. THEY locked down
Those three nations also had less economic damage than Sweden
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
Thank you Billy! Did you mean to reinforce my point ? )In the battle for which nation got it right, we should have learned by now one nation's solution won't work for all.
Some of us learnt that 'heard immunity' is a myth, surely ?
Rosco, Finland and Norway had TEN times less deaths and Denmark 6 times less .. THEY locked down
THAT is less unsuccessful than Sweden
We all await Q3 results for 2020.
I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers ?
They are BOTH net exporters ...Finland's clients also mostly locked down.
That is the case with many nations, currently and some folks are asking " why the need to have special measures" as deaths are less.
I watched Macron on France24 and he articulated a perfect riposte to such a question... "the numbers being hospitalised are up and 'we' know better how to treat folk, but these cases take up resources for people with other ailments. It is our duty as citizens to behave responsibly"
Quite
Moby, you're again trying to shift the discussion.
I said - "Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous."
You answered me with - "I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers ?"
I've not once said that Sweden beat covid. In fact I'm not saying that everyone should do as they have. I'm saying that if you dig into the numbers, I believe the Swedish situation is better than some are trying to sell and one I'd rather have given the social unrest and excess death migration, the rest of us are fighting today. {/quote]
You are suggesting 'we' should consider the Swedes are doing it 'better' .. the numbers - in direct comparison with all their neighbours, who locked down..suggest otherwise ... the death rate ratio is undeniable
I see no reason to lose civility
Pfizer Inc. said it could be ready to apply for emergency-use authorization of its Covid-19 vaccine by late November, assuming it receives positive efficacy and safety data from late-stage human trials.- Wall St. Journal
Pfizer Says It Won’t Seek Vaccine Authorization Before Mid-November
Don't worry. Vaccines are coming.More 'happy talk' to try to pretend trump and the US are singlehandedly slaying the virus. Face facts, no real vaccine is coming anytime soon. The virus will run wild until it runs it's course. Some old people may decide staying in their basement is the best option.
WOW! Forget excess deaths, I can see how effective such disciplined lockdowns really worked in Europe!
Amazing.
I wonder if you could explain the above, please ? Who is 'forgetting' excess deaths ?
Mouthwashes may help lower the transmission and spread of the coronavirus (http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tagged/coronavirus), according to a new study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.26514).http://www.aol.com/article/lifestyle/2020/10/21/mouthwash-could-inactivate-human-coronaviruses-that-cause-infections/24658123/
In the study, published in the Journal of Medical Virology, researchers investigated over-the-counter mouthwashes and nasal rinses commonly found in drug stores and supermarkets, since both types of products “directly impact the major sites of reception and transmission of human coronaviruses (HCoV)” — namely, the mouth and nose — and “may provide an additional level of protection against the virus.”
To find out whether mouthwashes and nasal rinses would be effective against the coronavirus, the researchers tested a common human coronavirus (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/types.html) known as 229e — one of several strains that typically only cause mild infections like the common cold, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/general-information.html) — not SARS‐CoV‐2, which is the virus associated with COVID‐19.
Rosco
We have a Swedish member with whom I do not seem to agree politically, who lurks and occasionally posts.
I await him telling you that Stockholm hasn't got a BIG issue with new cases.
Let's deal in known FACTS
1/ Sweden has had 10 times more deaths than it's two physically connected neighbours and 5 times more than Denmark to the south.
2/ Sweden's economy performed proportionally worse than Finland's in QTR2
3/ Antibodies present numbers in Stockholm suggest 'herd mentality' is a myth - low double figures
So, try to tell us 'Sweden's leadership handled it better' and I will simply show you those facts.
Rosco, my pointing out facts you try to ignore is 'trolling', now ... ?
Anybody would think you were desperately 'auto suggesting' ;)
I used the term proportionally in comparing Finland and Sweden ..the comparison is as 'fair' as the figures that do not lie as to the abject failure of Sweden's policy and their need to cover up the correspondence re 'herd immunity' that went missing ... but the Finnish govt specialists didn't 'lose' their end of the correspondence ....
And while images in the media occasionally show crowded city buses and restaurants, surveys by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency found that 80 percent of Swedes have changed their behaviour as a result of recommendations.
They are working from home or limiting social contacts—even though there are no fines or sanctions for disregarding them.
In the Sodermalm neighbourhood of Stockholm, where mostly unmasked cyclists and pedestrians hurried to work during the morning rush hour, Roger Palmqvist told AFP he trusted the Swedish approach.
But he acknowledged the lighter Swedish touch would probably not work everywhere.
"There's nothing that forces you, but Swedes are like that you know, they follow (rules)," said the 60-year-old sea captain, noting that cultures were different in other parts of Europe.
Oh look, the old apples and pears argument!! :wallbash: Where's your Belgium comparison where they locked everyone down but have terrible death rates compared to Sweden? Ahhh.....those facts don't fit your narrative.
5,800 deaths from 11 million people in Sweden. Nearly all of them from care homes, terminally ill and people with multiple health issues whose days were numbered. If you were under 70, you had almost 100% chance of surviving covid yet you want to lock everyone down and destroy the economy. And after that first spike, they now have less deaths on a daily/monthly/annual basis than at any time over the last 5 years. Tell me how that's a terrible thing again?
People dying of cancer because they don't get the diagnosis or treatment. Children not being educated. Domestic abuse soaring. Mental health issues through the roof. Suicide is now one of the biggest killers whilst covid struggles to make the top 20.
Just admit that you're wrong about Sweden Moby. It's like being offended.....nothing actually happens.
IF ONLY you paused to think before posting you'd realise who is actually guilty of THAT when facts do not suit ...
Comparing neighbouring nations is a great way of comparing what they are doing wrong or right
It was noted, once again, how you ducked the 'herd immunity' scandal and 'missing emails' at Sweden's end re 'herd immunity'
1/ Sweden' govt even admit 'mistakes' ... re protecting their old
2/ Most developed nations know how to treat serious cases
You DO realise you are proving you simply cannot be thinking, logically. Healthcare is affected by staff who cannot work due to being in contact with infected people ..
I have a good mate who has been bricking it re Prostate cancer - it took FAR longer than normal to get " it's a growth, but not deadly" result.
We await visa applications being processed in longer times .. This is because folk are working from home
My Mum is stir crazy when my sis' cannot visit
You 'preach' as if others do not see the downside of precautions and ignore the reasoning WHY
I'm afraid you're being in denial re the factual numbers presented suggests you will 'wait' a LONG time .. I can only surmise you deliberately didn't check the new case numbers
Moby I won’t be repeating anything
Anything suggesting some sort of success in Sweden triggers your hate. You need to get over it.
Sighs...
Trench,
'We' know how to treat the respiratory issues, now..
Also, THIS time, many mores cases in western nations with Students..often asymptomatic..
There's a good documentary on Amazon right now, Totally Under Control, that discusses some of the differences between the US response and that of (mostly) South Korea. I recommend it.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
I recall how smug some of our Euro members spoke in early summer, claiming their strict and extended economic shutdown had corralled the virus. Some with a political biases used preliminary data to blame Trump for mismanaging America's response. We now see such claims of mismanagement were unwarranted. We are in the same boat.
In America we understand that the virus can not be controlled unless drastic measures are undertaken OR effective and safe vaccines are developed and administered en masse. Until then we must continue to mitigate and to not be surprised by outbreaks. The resurgence in Europe apparently is a preview of our future as new cases already exceed a peak record set in the Spring.
Let's see how things are looking towards the end of the year Gator before drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of mitigation measures.
It is going to be a tough time on both sides of the Atlantic. There will be no winner, only those that have lost less.
I fully support changing our lives and learning to live with the virus. Cancelling our lives only means we sacrifice others in different ways.
Again, BC you are focusing on too short of a time frame for a pandemic. 12-18 months from now the whole story may be told, provided we have administered effective vaccines en masse. Probably even longer in the less developed nations.
Do not forget a key second part of the whole story will be how the economy recovers, which strongly affects the quality of life of the 99.9% who did not die.
Measured in terms of deaths, lost jobs and other suffering.
When all suffering and damages have been counted, we will understand this viral agent from China exacted a shockingly huge toll around the globe. That's the important story, not just the story of fighting outbreaks along the way.
The USA is the only country [I know of] where blame is practically placed on it's leader for the pandemic....Try doing that in China (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic. That is what is criticized.
My major concern is with fellow citizens and residents back home that do not have access to the wider social safety net and healthcare benefits of most folks overseas. At least the vast majority over here won't fear medical bills, lack of food, or a roof over their head.
Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic. That is what is criticized.
Our government was criticized as well, for not closing the borders quickly enough and not taking more proactive action immediately. That is being investigated currently. However, most of our response is controlled at the provincial, rather than the federal level.
I think China reacted very quickly to the virus.
wah wah wah, it is china's fault! More blame shifting. The fact is, China has handled the virus better than Trump/US. Very hard for you and others to admit obviously.
Yes, and harshly. The quarantine was total, much stricter than anything the West would undertake. Would it have been acceptable to quarantine and lockdown Seattle? New York City?
Evidently, China knew something it was not sharing with the world, e. g., China prohibited domestic travel from Wuhan, but not international travel.
What did China know and not share promptly with the world, other than sharing the virus?
Our government made sure food, PPE, ventilators and other things that involve life and death increased in production. Toilet paper, vitamin shortages, hand sanitizer and a few other little things ran out because people panicked from the little info they got about the virus. Now they criticize Trump for not saying enough about it. Lol.
The Italians have a plan and are following it.
Many were trying to profit, buying TP and other items in bulk to turn a buck or three hundred... That's what scared the public. Crowd dynamics and loss of confidence. It is up to our leaders to maintain confidence that a crisis can be overcome. Part of that is guaranteeing the supply and availability of necessary goods and services.
The last thing was kind of doing the guidelines, which was interesting. And that in my mind was almost like – you know, it was almost like Trump getting the country back from the doctors. Right? In the sense that what he now did was, you know, he’s going to own the open-up.Kushner
There were three phases. There’s the panic phase, the pain phase and then the comeback phase. I do believe that last night symbolized kind of the beginning of the comeback phase. That doesn’t mean there’s not still a lot of pain and there won’t be pain for a while, but that basically was, we’ve now put out rules to get back to work. Trump’s now back in charge. It’s not the doctors. They’ve kind of – we have, like, a negotiated settlement.
But their plan hasn't worked and isn't working. Italians are still getting sick at
record numbers and they've had some of the most restrictive measures. There
would be a world wide economic depression if the USA did what Italy did and it
wouldn't even be constitutionally possible.
Many were trying to profit, buying TP and other items in bulk to turn a buck or three hundred... That's what scared the public. Crowd dynamics and loss of confidence. It is up to our leaders to maintain confidence that a crisis can be overcome. Part of that is guaranteeing the supply and availability of necessary goods and services.
According to Fauci, Trump hasn't even attended their meetings on the virus for a couple of months.
The Democrats claim Trump didn't warn people enough. Here's some stuff I posted back in April to show Democrats and liberal media not taking it serioiusly. Biden has his experts telling him about the virus and no once did Biden notify the American people it's worse than what Trump has been saying.
Do you recall the gasoline shortages during the 1979 oil crises? It was caused less by
curtailment of Iranian supplies, but more by panicking Americans who normally drive
with less than half a tank deciding to fill their tanks at every opportunity.
Our declining gasoline supply lines suddenly had to produce an additional 1.5 billion
gallons to store an additional 10 gallons in 150 million cars. The continuing ripple effect
was crazy.
Suggest you read my prior posts 2Tall.
The gasoline shortages of the 1970's was caused by Nixon and Carters price
controls on gas and nearly unrelated to the Iranian situation.
Read about it here
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2007-06-07-0706061080-story.html
And here
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/remembering-nixons-wage-price-controls
BillyB, I recall your post. Still valuable months later. Don't upset the anti-Trumpers with such a factual timeline. They despise facts; facts get in the way of their anti-Trump narrative.
Makes one wonder what Biden would have done differently other than just what Trump did except later. One key difference - Biden would have done his best to have longer and stricter lockdowns, maybe doing permanent damage to the economy.
Evidently Macron, Merkel, and other Euro leaders stopped meeting too. Or otherwise they would have heeded the advice of their health scientists, thus preventing the resurgence.
Or maybe the world has been beset by a pandemic that will exact a toll from every nation and will not attenuate in the near future without a vaccine or a Chinese lockdown.
You speak as if our president has nothing to say, cannot corral congressional and state leaders to take unified action....
...is powerless to appeal to the population to take prudent measures. What was Trump saying during the exact same period reflected in BillyB's post?
Should we not take what a president says seriously?
The ONLY consistent message from Trump since January until today has been 'it's going to go away', and is an established 'Factual Timeline'. Well, it hasn't gone away and will be around for some time to come.
But heck, even if we do need to have national lockdowns to keep things in check, we at least know how to do it, know it works and that the economy will recover over time.
What did I say about economic recovery?This was expected and the market has opened down today. The economy shrunk by the same number the quarter before. Overall the economy has obviously shrunk in comparison to the year before. Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed. Overall we don't need to pretend things are rosy.
BREAKING NEWS: US THIRD QUARTER GDP HAD A THITD QUARTER BLOWOUT NUMBER OF 33.1%.
:applause: :applause: (directed at ourselves, Democrats and Republicans)
33.1%
Now let's see if the news media reports this!!!!!
Let's hope that Pelosi agrees to a stimulus/relief bill to continue this trend.
Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed.
This was expected and the market has opened down today.
The economy shrunk by the same number the quarter before.
Overall the economy has obviously shrunk in comparison to the year before.
Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed.
Overall we don't need to pretend things are rosy.
I feel I may not be long for this place, so I will start getting things off my chest.fully invested in the US...aside from property abroad.
So I read a FT post.
For your family's sake, I hope you are not making your own decisions about investments. The market opened down because of COVID, Euro lockdowns, and no stimulus bill. Then what happened?
Yes stimulus may be needed but at what cost? How does that substitute for actually working harder? We are supposed to be an 'exceptional' people.
Yes, April, May and June suffered from the lockdowns. Today's economic news show this economy wants to grow, but we need a stimulus bill.
Outwork them if we expect to be the 'exceptional' Problem is we can't outwork them, because many of the people here are too entitled, old, drugged up, or unwilling to work. What we need is a younger and opportunity hungry population, but our people don't create children any longer so we need more immigration....but many in the GOP don't want more immigration because the people that immigrate are browner than in the past.
For decades China's unfair trade practices have been unchecked by the likes of Obama-Biden, Bush, Clinton and Wall Street and Corporate America. You expected China to roll over? China trade has huge momentum, and we will continue to buy Chinese products because they sell cheaper mousetraps. There is much more to this threat than trade. We must chip away and for sure not become beholden to them.
So what do you believe we should do?
This talk of "Life is a shit sandwich, and then you die" is not me. Never has been, even in downtimes. Put a smile on your face and confront the challenges.....with a good plan.I'd say you are misjudging yourself, you are not putting a smile on any faces including your own, and your version of confronting problems is by trying to force change on others rather than looking at the internal changes that could be made here in the US. A good plan of trying to make everyone conform to what you think is 'fair' isn't going to fly nowadays, unless it actually is fair. We in the US are no longer in position to dictate policy to the world.
I feel I may not be long for this place, so I will start getting things off my chest.
So I read a FT post.
For your family's sake, I hope you are not making your own decisions about investments. The market opened down because of COVID, Euro lockdowns, and no stimulus bill. Then what happened?
Yes, April, May and June suffered from the lockdowns. Today's economic news show this economy wants to grow, but we need a stimulus bill.
Such happens when beset by a pandemic and economic lockdown, and your point is what?
For decades China's unfair trade practices have been unchecked by the likes of Obama-Biden, Bush, Clinton and Wall Street and Corporate America. You expected China to roll over? China trade has huge momentum, and we will continue to buy Chinese products because they sell cheaper mousetraps. There is much more to this threat than trade. We must chip away and for sure not become beholden to them.
So what do you believe we should do?
Lots on negative thoughts , FT. Let's see how do you end your post.
Sad!
Yes, the world got hit, and hit hard. We are still vulnerable. However, life is getting better, and will get better and better starting after this upcoming acute and final wave of the pandemic. We need vaccines, and they are coming.
This talk of "Life is a shit sandwich, and then you die" is not me. Never has been, even in downtimes. Put a smile on your face and confront the challenges.....with a good plan.
BC-
Is this true? What happened to the disciplined, unselfish talk, unlike Americans yabadabadoo jab?
We have riots and looting here too but those are by silly snowflakes and idiots trying to help Biden’s election out.
Economically, WSJ reported today we sustained 3.6% contraction where Italy is over 10%!!!! The rest of Europe are not as bad, but not that much better either.
Anyway, I hope things change for you guys over there.
"Lol – I live in Missouri, we don’t really believe in Covid :)"
Yes stimulus may be needed but at what cost?
....but many in the GOP don't want more immigration because the people that immigrate are browner than in the past.
I'd say you are misjudging yourself, you are not putting a smile on any faces including your own,
and your version of confronting problems is by trying to force change on others rather than looking at the internal changes that could be made here in the US. A good plan of trying to make everyone conform to what you think is 'fair' isn't going to fly nowadays, unless it actually is fair. We in the US are no longer in position to dictate policy to the world.
COVID-19 is not as frightening as BIDEN-20. ;)
COVID-19 is not as frightening as BIDEN-20. ;)
Careful, this mentality will have you voting Republican.I don't think so, I already went though my 'republican phase' and the party no longer represents what I want to see representing the country.
A lot more than a few supremacists would like to see less immigration from foreign lands where people are browner. I hear it all the time, but then again I'm in the midst of work life and interacting with dozens of people daily. Many make the mistake of thinking I'm one of the 'good old boys' because I look like I'm one. You are really detached from reality, you just don't realize it.
Not many, but a few supremacists. And they don't participate in GOP strategic planning. Not knowing any supremacists, I don't even know if they vote. They seem to prefer to spend their time on ideas such as "Let's kidnap the Governor."
BTW, I see brown and black immigrants every day. Hard working, serious people.
This is where you 'give up' because you can no longer counter the argument with anything sensible. Reality is you would like to force change onto countries like China without trying to encourage change here first. It is becoming more difficult for the US to force other countries to do much since we don't have as much dominance in the world as we used to. Trump is helping our influence decline further, which is one good reason to support him, since our dominance has been abused in recent decades.
Typical FT as I recall from years ago. This suggests you know me. You don't.
Typical FT as I recall - gibberish (incoherent, meandering). Where was "angry?"
But even in places where community infections were on the rise, outbreaks in schools were uncommon, particularly when precautions were taken to reduce transmission. More than 65,000 schools in Italy reopened in September, as case numbers were climbing in the community. But only 1,212 campuses had experienced outbreaks four weeks later. In 93% of cases, only one infection was reported, and only one high school had a cluster of more than 10 infected people.
It is generally accepted now that the lockdown of schools resulted in more adverse health responses than if they had remained open.
Perhaps true with respect to students.
But what about with respect to teachers ?
Should be okay for those teaching elementary school.
Just heard that one of my male nephews aged around 60 has died of Covid.
Smokers know not to smoke tobacco, yet they do. The difference is cancer and other diseases from smoking typically occur with decades of exposure. In contrast, infection with COVID can occur from one exposure in one brief unprotected moment.
GREAT DAY FOR SCIENCE/HUMANITY
Phase III FDA trials by Pfizer/BioNTech reported its vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 among those without evidence of prior infection. 90% is much higher than the 60% threshold targeted by policy making scientists such as Dr. Fauci. In fact, "more than 90%" is in the category of smallpox and chickenpox vaccines. Truly great news.
This vaccine uses the RNA-based platform unlike some other vaccines such as the AstraZeneca candidate now in Phase III trials. This RNA platform deals not only with COVID-19 and its mutated strains, the results demonstrate the likely ability to be modified to immunize against new viruses. If true as it seems, this moves the world 100 years ahead in addressing public health threats from viruses.
Rollout is not simple. The vaccine requires two doses. Distribution requires much care because the vaccine must be stored at -80oF. Production requires highly sophisticated facilities and takes time. While only 50 million doses are available in 2020, over a billion doses will be ready produced in 2021.
Just as Trump promised, COVID-19 is going away. However, we have a difficult six months in front of us.
There is some bad news today. Although Pfizer vaccine is 90+% effective for COVID-19, it does not afford immunity to BIDEN-20. ;)
Can some celebrating tell us if the vaccine can cope with the new strain found in Denmark?
*I* think not.....
....and COVID-19 will not be eradicated with this vaccine (
It might mean a new normal. Less deaths, but 'Trampu's' promise is as accurate as mass fraud being perpetrated.
Read the numbers..
Only 1/7th of the population could receive the vaccination and its efficacy will wear off.
It is great news..but let's not get carried away
The open questions at this point are how long the vaccine works and if those that do get infected despite being vaccinated have better survival rates.
Only time will tell.
Regarding new strains, we just don't know yet, but pharma can run computer model simulations to theoretically assess the impact of this newly reported strain in Norway. In any case, I am confident they can 'tweak' the vaccine as well along the way if necessary.
Phase III FDA trials by Pfizer/BioNTech reported its vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 among those without evidence of prior infection.
Keep in mind Gator that we're only approaching theoretical halftime. Many months still to go before a vaccine can begin to have some effect on transmission.
94 candidates got infected, and of those 90% were candidates that received the placebo. This means 9 receiving the vaccine got infected if my math is correct?
Of course, such efficacy would definitely help to create 'herd' conditions that would pretty much halt transmission, *if* all are vaccinated, but much remains to be known about those 9, most importantly their age, what pre-existing conditions they may have, and of course if all survived or had only minor symptoms. 9 is a very small sample though. Still much more to learn with time.
I guess it could be comparable to, or hopefully better than everyone wearing a mask while amongst others and washing hands regularly.
What Dr. Fauci thinks about Joe Biden's mask plan----
http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/10/23/anthony-fauci-biden-mask-mandate-ebof-vpx.cnn?hpt=ob_blogfooterold
Gee.... it was so simple :cluebat:
The results are really quite good, I mean extraordinary,
I'm still skeptical but if Pfizer did create a quality vaccine, it's good news for Americans because Trump invested in them to secure rights to hundreds of millions of doses.
BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.
BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.
Again, we're looking at the 2nd and 3rd quarter next year for availability in quantity.
Hopefully, other vaccine producers will have similar or better results with their trials.
Are you certain about this? My information suggest otherwise.
First, you listed BioNTech first in naming the joint collaboration with Pfizer. Is this typical in the European media coverage of this most welcome news?
BioNTech and Pfizer raise hopes with breakthrough Covid-19 vaccinehttp://www.ft.com/content/497594f4-7771-4af5-98dc-8c98487ea212
in the collaboration, BioNTech is a small company yet had the proprietary mRNA vaccine platform coveted by Pfizer. Pfizer brought its mammoth global expertise in all phases of vaccine development, approval, production, and delivery.
Did BioNTech receive German government funds for development of the vaccine? I had the impression that Pfizer paid BioNTech a large upfront amount for 1) costs of development and 2) equity. More Pfizer payments are due with BioNTech repaying Pfizer upon commercialization of the vaccine.
Pfizer elected to fund the development itself. including the BioNTech development costs as I noted above. However, Pfizer certainly has received a $billion+ of Warp Speed funding in the form of advance payments for doses (contingent upon the vaccine receiving FDA approval). Maybe the German support you speak of is similar to this U.S. Warp Speed support?
Operation Warp Speed covers much more than the development and testing of a vaccine. It covers production, distribution, and administration. The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is certainly part of the Warp Speed pipeline for the US.
Work on the vaccine began in Mainz, Germany, in late January, when Ugur Sahin, the chief executive and co-founder of BioNTech, read about the virus in the Lancet that filled him with dread. “I almost instantly knew that this would affect us,” Mr. Sahin said. That same day, the first European cases were detected, in France.
Mr. Sahin assembled a 40-person team to work on the vaccine. Many employees canceled vacations and Mr. Sahin authorized overtime pay. They called it Project Lightspeed.
Positive effects will start accruing sooner.
Several in the pipeline including Europe's AstraZeneca. Perhaps the next one up will be Moderna's vaccine, which is also using a mRNA platform.
The expected timeline according to DHS Secretary Azar interview:
December - rollout for 1) nursing home residents and other vulnerable populations and 2) healthcare workers and first responders.
January-February - complete above plus all senior citizens
March-April - every American who wants to be vaccinated
Key assumption: FDA approves the Pfizer vaccine plus others such as Moderna's.
All this with the presumption that enough vaccine will be available by those times. How many states have already selected their immunization priority order? I assume each will be in control of their own distribution. Sounds messy already.
Considering we're now mid-November, with initial results from only one vaccine, none approved, and limited worldwide stock ready for distribution in 2020, Azar's expectations are very optimistic.
Are you certain about this? My information suggest otherwise.
Pfizer certainly has received a $billion+ of Warp Speed funding in the form of advance payments for doses (contingent upon the vaccine receiving FDA approval).
Under the arrangement (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200722005438/en/Pfizer-BioNTech-Announce-Agreement-U.S.-Government-600), the federal government would obtain that first batch for $1.95 billion, or about $20 a dose, with the rights to acquire up to 500 million more, or 600 million total. Americans would receive the vaccine for free. Before it could be distributed, it would need emergency approval by the Food and Drug Administration. But the U.S. government does not pay the nearly $2 billion until the drug is approved and the first 100 million doses are delivered.
Pfizer is on record as stating it received no funding from the US government.
Pfizer spokesperson Sharon Castillo provided a statement that said the company is indeed part of Operation Warp Speed.
"Pfizer is one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine," Castillo said in an email. "While Pfizer did reach an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government, the company did not accept (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk. Dr. Jansen was emphasizing that last point."
BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.
Are you certain about this? My information suggest otherwise.
Quite sure.
All this with the presumption that enough vaccine will be available by those times. How many states have already selected their immunization priority order? I assume each will be in control of their own distribution. Sounds messy already.
David Martin: So if this distribution of vaccine is-- doesn't go according to plan, where does the buck stop?
General Gus Perna: Me. Conversation's over. It's pretty easy, me. I hold myself 100% personally accountable to that end.
Wow! Youdumpedsourced a lot of material.
I say we are both right. Pfizer is part of Operation Warp Speed, yet funded its own R&D. Germany funded some of BioNTech's research, and Pfizer contributed as well.
The collaborative effort is loosely defined, yet who cares. We can celebrate its success in developing what appears is not only the first vaccine, but one with remarkably high efficacy.
Also makes some sense as to why sales agreements with countries insist that the vaccine be given to the population without charge. I hope other companies do the same.
If you can't open the link or don't have a subscription I'd be happy to send it to you, just PM me.
Those of you feel despair go to Infowars.com or banned.video.com
Alex Jones and you may not have seen this, yet...)
I was particularly interested in the background story behind this collaborative effort. I found the following interesting article that explains more about this collaborative effort between these two BioNTech and Pfizer CEOs. Basically, a loose agreement between close friends, a handshake, and a 'let's do it' attitude.
Moby, you are sleeping at the switch. Maxx made a post, and over two hours elapsed before you countered.
Moby, you are sleeping at the switch. Maxx made a post, and over two hours elapsed before you countered.
Thanks for sending the article.
It is a "feel good" story. Still riding bicycles to work. :) Good to read that they did not stop at say $100 million when selling their prior company and instead focused on making BioNTech a success.
While the couple profess medical science, one of them is very good at business. Otherwise, they never would have taken their startup to a $20 billion company. Likely a close friend-associate or some venture capitalist played a leading role.
For comparison, the company started a few years ago by my step-daughter and her husband could be capitalized today at as much as $20 million. They want to grow more and more, yet IMO they are about to hit a wall without such help. And their company is 1/1000th of BioNTech today! Like BioNTech, they need a proprietary process the world needs and wants.
And today BioNTech's mRNA platform is breaking out with an unlimited future. Who knows, maybe they surpass the $200 billion Pfizer. Bill Gates passed IBM.
Maxx is 4 hours ahead!
Was that it, re any valid counter? )
Read the time of his post and your knee-jerk response.
I did not examine the substance of what either of you had to say. Ask me, "Why not?"
..done...it sems it may be you that has committed the sin..
Then you compound the error..
Yup, you truly miss ANY irony in your contribution..
Major foul up by newsome on this one. He no longer has very much credibility to demand others follow the rules he is advocating. I'm pretty surprised he had the audacity to violate his own rules, especially since he knows the rules aren't being well received by many. Trump can't be blamed for this one.
Another California politician with a do as I say, not as I do policy. While he governor is telling people to avoid get togethers and suggest people cancelling Thanksgiving and Christmas get togethers, he goes to birthday parties. Blame it on Trump?
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2020/nov/13/california-governor-went-to-party-violated-own-vir/
Will they be easier to produce and distribute on a mass basis?
Us commoners need to wait a few days, each time, as a LOT of BS seems to accompany a success story ..like " Needs to be stored at minus 70C (minus 94F)
The UK govt hasn't even had the Moderna variant on it's pre-order radar ! ( now in 'advanced talks'...)
SECOND VACCINE WITH EXCELLENT PHASE 3 RESULTS
Truly great news. COVID-19 will soon be in the rear-view mirror.
All these vaccines may subdue the virus spread worldwide but I doubt if it will sort it out quickly. The UK government is looking at a piecemeal approach of immunising the elderly first but unless pretty much all are immunised within a weeks to months then it probably won't solve the problem. Then on top of that it's how governments around the world also respond in immunising their citizens. If the vaccines only last a few months and not everyone is vaccinated at a similar time then we could be back to square one within a short space of time.
Moving to an almost totally non contact economy and much reduced contact society might be the only way if they can't sort it 100 percent with a vaccine.
Have some faith in medical science. Vaccines work, especially those with over 90% efficacy.
This article says the efficacy claims by Pfizer and Moderna was done by press release, not a scientific article. Great news for stockholders though.
You are describing the extreme cold storage required for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. Moderna's vaccine can be stored for 6 months at -20oC (household freezer), or 30 days at +2oC (normal fridge), or 8 hours at room temperature. These ranges much easier to implement in mass immunization.
Have some faith in medical science. Vaccines work, especially those with over 90% efficacy.
An annual booster may be needed. So?! Do you not take an annual flu vaccine that is only 40-60% effective?
Besides a pipeline of vaccines, medical science is developing a fleet of therapeutics to treat those who become infected. If you are unlucky and become infected, your prospects are much better than just a few months ago.
You just proved my point about the BS re storage temps.. ((
The problem is..
This article says the efficacy claims by Pfizer and Moderna was done by press release, not a scientific article. Great news for stockholders though. Article also says efficacy with vaccines are usually lower in the real world compared to what we see in trials.
http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/ (http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/)
I'm a little dubious on that front too. I've not read a lot on the trials as I don't have time but from what I hear they give a load of people the vaccine and see how many might later catch the virus. However, many of those might have not caught the virus anyway. I just can't help but think it might not be quite the good news day we are all led to believe it is, one way or another.
Trench,
The vaccine, at least at this time is much more about stopping transmission than anything else.
Hopefully, it will be effective as well in reducing the effects of those vulnerable to more serious complications.
You just proved my point about the BS re storage temps.. ((
Once vaccinated for my personal health, my risk of becoming infected will be reduced by by 95% (vs. 40-60% for flu vaccines). And if infected, my symptoms will not be severe. That is the interim conclusion of the Moderna trials.
What else would someone want.
Who in the hell would not want to be vaccinated? And by the time your turn comes (say 4-6 months from now, we will have much more information.
This is medical science, not political science.
Really, it's still 50/50 for the individual.
Either one will still be susceptible to getting COVID or not.
Everyone around me to be vaccinated as well, reducing my chances of getting a bad case to 95%+
I can't imagine reasonable grounds for not getting vaccinated, but yes, some, in fact many will likely object.
Gator,
Percentage never applies to a single person, only to the group as a whole.
After receiving the shots, my body may or may not build up immunity. Thus 50/50.
If not, I would be part of that unfortunate 5%
I am not understanding your point. Please try to explain it without numbers. You tried in the next sentence, and sorry , I don't get it.
I failed at my attempt to upload a graph of the COVID surge in the US. Very troubling.
From my (singular) POV I can still either get it or not. Thus, maybe/maybe not. Statistics alone would not reassure me and I'd keep on masking up until a good majority of the population group around me are also vaccinated.
Of course the US is faring very badly with the pandemic losing thousands of lives every couple days...but I'm curious to know why is Italy doing so badly still. I see the death count is very high considering their population base. What is it about Italy specifically that has made it so bad. I'm curious if it is genetic, aging populace, culture, living conditions, or what.
Fathertime!
Comparably with the world the US is doing much better than them. Imagine that that. Europe and the rest of the world seemed to have it all together back in say July. Should we continue to follow that lead or no?
It is too early to tell who is doing better or not.
(http://i.postimg.cc/CLRKn3b4/Screen-Shot-2020-11-22-at-11-26-59.png)
It will take more than a couple of months to know.
BC, in July you were praising Italy while criticizing Trump. Now we know you were premature, if not misguided.
Let's compare again the first and second weeks of December to see where we are.
When? i imagine you will have a narrow focus on counting deaths in mid-December, and not considering the general well being of society. As I wrote above, the evaluation "must consider not only the protection of public health, but the economy and general welfare (such as schooling of children)." The evaluation can not be made until well into global recovery from the pandemic.
Results will vary among individual states in the US., and among different nations. And we can not measure outcomes until well into recovery.
Gator,
Do you ( seriously) envisage 200 million people in the US will have have both shots by May 2021 ?
We have built the logistics directly for the COVID vaccine. And we just received information within the last few days that more than 25,000 long-term care facilities have selected CVS to be their COVID vaccine provider. So, we're in the final step of matching our staffing plan to our logistics plan and, to your point, Operation Warp Speed has said 24 hours after approval, those vaccines will be on the road and 48 hours after we receive that vaccine, we'll be in those facilities providing that vaccine into the arms of our elderly, our most vulnerable population.
I believe Moncef knows more than you and me.
Moncef had one caveat, "if the vaccination distribution and immunization plan goes well." What could go wrong?
This new anecdotal info suggests the US can achieve herd immunity in 1 - 1.5 years using back of the envelope math. This should be calculated using differential equations because some of the variables change over time at a nonlinear rate.
NY Gov. Cuomo gets international award for his excellent handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. 1 out of every 568 New Yorkers are dead from COVID-19 so far this year. NY State has a worse death per million ratio than any nation on earth.
http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/ (http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/)
PORTLAND, Ore. — Days before Thanksgiving, Oregon Gov. Kate Brown said she believes residents who know their neighbors are violating the most recent round of COVID-19 protocols (http://www.kgw.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/oregon-governor-kate-brown-new-covid-19-measures-announcement/283-725af457-dfaa-4cfd-875c-4e81f7cf1df5), which includes capping the number of people allowed in your home at six, should call the police. “This is no different than what happens if there's a party down the street and it's keeping everyone awake,” Brown said in an interview Friday. “What do neighbors do [in that case]? They call law enforcement because it's too noisy. This is just like that. It's like a violation of a noise ordinance.”http://www.kgw.com/article/news/politics/oregon-covid-freeze-call-police-neighbors-kate-brown/283-d25ae28a-f177-4b68-a5a6-882004da1862
The restrictions, known as a freeze, were implemented this week via an executive order by the governor. For the next two weeks in Oregon, and four weeks in Multnomah County, residents are banned from eating out at restaurants and going to the gym, among other restrictions. Social gatherings in our homes are also limited to no more than six people. Violators could face up to 30 days in jail, $1,250 in fines or both. :crackwhip:
Price of Vaccines
Negotiated (US supply costs per dose)
AstraZeneca $4
Pfizer 20
Novavox 16
Sonofi 10.50
J & J 10
Moderna 15.25
Now add the cost of distribution and actual immunization (two doses per person), and we can see this will cost maybe $100 billion. Well worth it considering the US has already spent trillions on protection and relief, ignoring deaths and healthcare costs.
This makes it v.clear how many govts. will be thinking..
Vaccine news.
Overall, COVID-19 can be beaten quite easily with vaccines. There are three things you should know...
1. The MMR vaccine (and specifically the mumps part of the vaccine)..........
Moby you threw up a "wall of words," of which all but the possible unintended positive result of MMR is news. All other points were discussed here earlier.
You have bragged about how fast you post.
I appreciate your introducing another source. I appreciate the brevity of most of your posts. But when interacting with a bunch of blokes, please make it appear you are listening.
NOTE TO SELF: I don't know why I wrote this.
You and me, both ..We all look forward to news you feel appropriate and 'newsworthy' ;)
Not my point all all.
To be explicit - I was hoping for intellectually rigorous discussions of science and the implications of a pandemic.
We also have twats in charge making ridiculous claims
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55175162
We got the virus first because we are great nation
As O said, the original comment WAS a dig at the EU.
Plenty of other nations not in the EU have yet to dash headlong to approval status.
The UK vovt told is in Jan than we had world leading scientists and world leading tests....the risk from Covid was negligible..
History has proven that person wrong and he is the UK Health Minister....
SCARY
This compulsion for speed [though urgent] on the vaccine bothers me somewhat...Will it affect the effectiveness?
“Fauci mistaken on criticism of UK regulator on vaccine approval.”
http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-fauci-mistaken-on-criticism-of-uk-regulator-on-vaccine-approval-12150232
The article then goes on to say that approval was faster in the UK because Brexit gave the regulator a brief moment of spare capacity.
So, nothing to do with Brexit....
The hypocrisy of Newsom is a problem now. He should have adhered to the rules he set up, but since he didn't he has undermined himself.
There are few better examples of hypocrisy than California’s elitist
dictator, Gavin Newsom —
They are lying to us.So now the pandemic is fake too! It seems you are really losing it again. How would all the 'inept liberal governments' keep such a big secret? Thousands of people would be involved, no way that sort of secret wouldn't get out.
"Klaus Schwab and his friends simulated a scripted pandemic event in Event 201 in October of 2019. (see Epilogue at 32:50 minute mark) with a planned second wave, worse than the first, that would affect all transactions, social, medical, political, banking and financial."
http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y (http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y)
So now the pandemic is fake too! It seems you are really losing it again. How would all the 'inept liberal governments' keep such a big secret? Thousands of people would be involved, no way that sort of secret wouldn't get out.I never said the pandemic was real. I said the virus and the fearmongering is real
I recall a month or two ago you stating the pandemic was real, it seems you have changed your mind.
Fathertime!
I never said the pandemic was real. I said the virus and the fearmongering is realAh ok so the virus is real but the pandemic isn't. Makes a lot of sense! :D
Ah ok so the virus is real but the pandemic isn't. Makes a lot of sense! :D
Fathertime!
The seasonal flu is real, spreads as quickly and kills more folks than covid. It's not a pandemic. They are lying to youI'm convincible, but not convinced at this time. Too many deaths around the world....look at poor italy suffering 700 plus deaths a day from it....2-3 thousand a day here... Seems abnormal to me. Too many world leaders with competing agendas to agree to keep a secret like this. I think it is real, just like the one 100 years ago, Pandemics do happen from time to time.
The only thing serious about it is the fearmongering and it being used as political tool to restrict our rights and movementDoesn't make sense, why would our politicians worldwide want to restrict rights and movement?
Doesn't make sense, why would our politicians worldwide want to restrict rights and movement?
Fathertime!
I'm not saying this to be facetious but, you really need to pay attention to whats going on around you. The s*it is getting real. Granted it will take you to stop getting absorbed in the mainstream fake news. Your being lied to FT and you don't even know it. The leftist narrative isn't real. It's about control and your democrat "progressives" are pushing it hard. Joe Biden didn't win. You waking up going out into public and breathing isn't killing anyone. Look at what's going on around youNone of this answers the question of why would governments from around the world want to restrict rights and movement.
. You waking up going out into public and breathing isn't killing anyone. Look at what's going on around youPandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year. I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too. Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now. Most know the pandemic is real. Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well. I'm pretty sure I get what is going on. I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)
None of this answers the question of why would governments from around the world want to restrict rights and movement.
Pandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year. I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too. Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now. Most know the pandemic is real. Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well. I'm pretty sure I get what is going on. I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)
I had a near 500 pound man come in today, without his mask, his skinny wife had one on though! Many of us fairies here in California do what we want, even if it kills us. What are you seeing going on in public that you think I'm not seeing?
Fathertime!
Pandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year. I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too. Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now. Most know the pandemic is real. Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well. I'm pretty sure I get what is going on. I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)
I had a near 500 pound man come in today, without his mask, his skinny wife had one on though! Many of us fairies here in California do what we want, even if it kills us.
These early vaccines don't seem like a one and done kind of vaccine since the immunity they provide may not last past a year. We may have to rely on them for the rest of our lives. I hope they create something better.
What they want is total control and power over all of the minions and governments in the world. That includes every aspect of our lives.I don't this happening. The pandemic will end and life will largely get back to normal at some point. I don't see the incentive for politicians around the world to coordinate and proceed with what you are describing.
I have a lot of 'critical equipment', so I don't expect to be forcefully closed. I do see a lot of businesses are closed and I'm not entirely for that. Assuming it is as temporary as stated things will be back up and running in a few weeks...we shall see.
Well you have stayed open so far but, till when? Look at your main street businesses that have been forced to close. How long before you are forced to? What I'm seeing that you don't recognize is exactly this. You haven't closed yet but what will you do when they force you to close?
My prayers for your wife and childThanks, they are doing very good based on the pictures they are sending.
BTW I used the dreaded google and looked up project mockingbird. The US has probably doing this crap for decades, which is one reason I've railed against our foreign policy based on bs.
. They tell us the election is over and China Pedo Joe won. Move along, nothing burger. Operation Mockingbird is in full effect. Look it up. T
I don't this happening. The pandemic will end and life will largely get back to normal at some point. I don't see the incentive for politicians around the world to coordinate and proceed with what you are describing.
I have a lot of 'critical equipment', so I don't expect to be forcefully closed. I do see a lot of businesses are closed and I'm not entirely for that. Assuming it is as temporary as stated things will be back up and running in a few weeks...we shall see.
Thanks, they are doing very good based on the pictures they are sending.
If pedo Joe takes office he's already declared masks and lock downs for his first 100 days. Where is the science?
I believe very very little from our government people. FP already showed me project mockingbird.
Director of National Intelligence wrote an Intelligence piece for the Wall Street Journal and gave an interview on Fox News saying China deliberately and intentionally downplayed the virus and allowed it to spread to the world.
http://welovetrump.com/2020/12/07/director-of-intelligence-ratcliffe-says-china-deliberately-and-intentionally-allowed-the-wuhan-virus-to-spread/
power for what purpose, and how could the entire world be in on it? I don't see it.
From their view it's all about power. ........ It's been happening for years now, they don't care who knows or try to disguise it. Tell the lie often enough and it becomes truth
Don't fool yourself, if it happened to them, it can happen to you. In a few weeks? Californicate is going into the strictest lock down in the country. Where does it end.Here in the land of fairies and fruitcakes, the lockdown is being ignored by a lot of people this time. Still lots of cars all over the roads, nothing like the first lockdown. People aren't buying into it this time, despite record setting deaths.
What they want is total control and power over all of the minions and governments in the world. That includes every aspect of our lives. It is a global movement and it is all about control. I'm completely dumbfounded as to how any educated person can not recognize what is happening not just here but everywhere in the world.Eventually this will all happen. This is not the last pandemic. Food shortage is likely because of climate and various calamities.
Here in the land of fairies and fruitcakes...California?
Biden Picks Xavier Becerra to Lead Health and Human Serviceshttp://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/06/us/politics/xavier-becerra-hhs-health-secretary.html
The selection of Mr. Becerra, the California attorney general, is a surprise. If confirmed, he will face a daunting challenge in leading the department at a critical moment in the pandemic.
WASHINGTON (AP) — As states frantically prepare to begin months of vaccinations that could end the pandemic, a new poll finds only about half of Americans are ready to roll up their sleeves when their turn comes.more........
The survey from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows about a quarter of U.S. adults aren’t sure if they want to get vaccinated against the coronavirus. Roughly another quarter say they won’t.
Many on the fence have safety concerns and want to watch how the initial rollout fares — skepticism that could hinder the campaign against the scourge that has killed nearly 290,000 Americans. Experts estimate at least 70% of the U.S. population needs to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity, or the point at which enough people are protected that the virus can be held in check.
“Trepidation is a good word. I have a little bit of trepidation towards it,” said Kevin Buck, a 53-year-old former Marine from Eureka, California.
Buck said that he and his family probably will get vaccinated eventually, if initial shots go well.
Black and Hispanic persons.
Wife made good observation however (I am frequently amazed at how quickly she is catching on to politics and psychology in USA) by saying: "I'll bet the Blacks and Hispanics, rather than being pleased . . . will start complaining that they are being used as Guinea pigs to see if they die, before 'white people' get the vaccine.
of course they aren't entirely wrong to be skeptical. I'll wait and see how the vaccine pains out for others before even considering doing it.
Wife made good observation however (I am frequently amazed at how quickly she is catching on to politics and psychology in USA) by saying: "I'll bet the Blacks and Hispanics, rather than being pleased . . . will start complaining that they are being used as Guinea pigs to see if they die, before 'white people' get the vaccine.
I'll wait and see how the vaccine pains out for others before even considering doing it.So if everybody does this? I have an idea...Have everyone in government [including this president elect office crowd] line up and receive the inoculation out of random batches...and then we can wait and see. If someone backs out..they must resign their office. That would and should include Madam Speaker.
If someday those 400,000 students exit our system our economy will lose untold billions. Not only do they pay for university education, but they also are somewhat free spenders on everything else. That is one way we (The US) can make up for the fact that the Chinese toil to make so much of our goods. We would shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to make them go away.
Hundreds of Chinese Communist party members are working for our vaccine makers and other industries. Probably to steal secrets. They have 400,000 students studying in our universities and the students are required to bring that education back home to benefit China.
If someday those 400,000 students exit our system our economy will lose untold billions. Not only do they pay for university education, but they also are somewhat free spenders on everything else. That is one way we (The US) can make up for the fact that the Chinese toil to make so much of our goods. We would shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to make them go away.
We share the world, and China is a huge and important part of the world. China is growing at rates impossible for us to match. We have enabled and cheered China as we educated them and they in turn stole our lunch. That needs to stop or China will be taking more than our lunch money.China could educate themselves just fine I'm sure. We best hope they don't decide to get involved in education and start attracting foreign students like we currently do. For now they are too busy 'doing' to be 'teaching'. If they are willing to pay billions and billions of dollars yearly directly and indirectly we best take it. Don't expect them to keep paying us if we are going to stop serving their students. The fact that they are better students than Americans (Generally) isn't a mark against them, it is a mark against us (The US).
If they are willing to pay billions and billions of dollars yearly directly and indirectly we best take it.
Seems we have issues naming pandemics anyway. Thank goodness they didn't call it the Kansas Flu back in 1918 eh?
This is one small tree in a large forest. Try to see the forest.. What are you proposing we (The US) do? Shoot ourselves in the foot because the evil Chinese are outcompeting us? We have an education system they like and we charge them an arm and a leg, and now conservatives are complaining about them getting educated here. We don't have THAT much to offer the Chinese, so we should just appreciate that they willing to spend so freely in our country. They could just pack up and do it on their own, and if conservatives continue to make them feel unwelcome they might. They have some of the most law abiding and brilliant minds of our time, but we (The US) are much more concerned about them being better than us 'exceptional' people!
This is one small tree in a large forest. Try to see the forest.
Italy finds new strain of coronavirus in person who arrived from UK
http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html (http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html)
Turkey closes borders with UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, and South Africa due to new mutation. Saudi Arabia closes borders with everybody.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html (http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html)
I guess we'll find out soon if we need to create a whole new vaccine for this mutation. More work for the makers of vaccines. Invest in their stock. More aggressive lock downs coming. Got to pacify the people so they are less likely to resist the Great Reset.
All this is happening while Trump is still president exactly as he said
it would and NOT during second quarter of 2021 like the liberals said.
Will the liberals from this board who were totally wrong going say
whoops, I was wrong? We shall see.
I don't remember the liberals saying anything. I remember the doctors and scientists talking about it. Are you implying that Trump had some big role in the timing of the vaccine?
Fascinating conspiracy theory. They would need the vaccinations to be spread to the nations that are actually producing the children, like in Africa and Asia. At the moment, that isn't happening to the extent it is elsewhere. Nations like Italy and Japan aren't making many kids anyway, so no vaccine for them!
There is a conspiracy theory from those on the right saying that The Great Reset wants to limit the population. They also say people like Bill Gates wants to reduce the population of the world. They cite experts who say the new mRNA vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer are harmful to our reproductive systems. It may limit our ability to have kids and even cause birth defects due to genetic manipulation. Because of COVID, mRNA based vaccines which have never been approved before is now rushed to the market. Do those 'experts' know what they're talking about? I did my own Google research to find this...
My friend is coming to my city in Ukraine in a week or so. I think the virus depends on the strength of your immune system. Best to avoid dating if you are weak , luckily I don't get fevers . I drink broccoli juice each day and eat bulbs of garlic (boil to garlic to remove the smell) .
I debated about posting on this but I think it's time because the issue is real and can have a real impact on humanity. There is a conspiracy theory from those on the right saying that The Great Reset wants to limit the population. They also say people like Bill Gates wants to reduce the population of the world. They cite experts who say the new mRNA vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer are harmful to our reproductive systems. It may limit our ability to have kids and even cause birth defects due to genetic manipulation. Because of COVID, mRNA based vaccines which have never been approved before is now rushed to the market. Do those 'experts' know what they're talking about? I did my own Google research to find this...
According to page 132 of Pfizer's clinical protocals, they require males in the study to refrain from donating sperm and ask them to not have unprotected sex with females who can bear children. Females in the study need to take precautions from getting pregnant
http://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf
A Dec 10th Pfizer document been released and at the bottom of page 12 talks about findings and outcomes of certain studies but when it came to study on Developmental and Reproductive Toxicity, the study is 'ongoing' yet they've approved the vaccine for release. So my recommendation for anybody wanting to have kids in the future is to avoid the Pfizer, Moderna, or any vaccine that is mRNA based. It would be a shame if 5-10 years from now they tell us they made a mistake releasing it too soon.
http://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download
A news anchor asks Bill Gates if vaccines are safe because there's a high rate of side effects among the people who are taking vaccines. Bill Gates's answer doesn't give me confidence.
http://twitter.com/WarTimeGirl/status/1343673202971717644
Good news is because of our social distancing practices and record number of people taking flu vaccines, flus are at an all time low.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/good-news-flu-cases-disappear-us-number-positive-flu-tests-time-low-reason/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=PostBottomSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons
That's interesting theory Billy. It could just be standard safe guards during all clinical trials or particular ones.
Actually the standard safe guards are being ignored in some cases. As you can see from the Pfizer document I submitted, they say the study on reproductive toxicity is ongoing which means they haven't concluded if their vaccine will or won't cause reproductive harm. I know you plan to have kids someday. Careful what you put in your body otherwise you may have a genetically defective Trenchcoat Jr to take care of.
It's looking more and more like that they should have stomped on this virus early by keeping the first lockdown full on until cases of virus had gone, rest of the world too. Virus firgures of 62 thousand infected here in the UK in most recent day so it looks like it won't be going down quick any time soon, its actually going up a bt. Added to that there now apparently is a new mutant variant of the virus in South Africa that has emerged, highly infectious and worst part is that it doesn't look that the vaccines will be that effective against it at least as far as they can tell at the moment. Virus infection rate and death rate way, way up there in recent days.4,000 dead from virus yesterday alone here in the states...a new record.
Who else here is getting tired of watching the never ending video repetition of hypos being loaded from vials and then getting stuck into arms? Is there some rationale that I don't understand?Yes and I am alarmed at the length of the needles which are twice normal.
Yes and I am alarmed at the length of the needles which are twice normal.+ the medical assistants [after hundreds of exhausting injections a day] might miss the arm and you get it in the ear. So much for encouraging people to take the jab (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)
And they are pushed fully in.
A lot of bones being hit, I'll bet.
Actually the standard safe guards are being ignored in some cases. As you can see from the Pfizer document I submitted, they say the study on reproductive toxicity is ongoing which means they haven't concluded if their vaccine will or won't cause reproductive harm. I know you plan to have kids someday. Careful what you put in your body otherwise you may have a genetically defective Trenchcoat Jr to take care of.
Twenty-three people died in Norway within days of receiving their first dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, with 13 of those deaths — all nursing home patients — apparently related to the side effects of the shots, health officials said.MORE...
Common reactions to the vaccine, including fever and nausea, “may have contributed to a fatal outcome in some frail patients,” Sigurd Hortemo, chief physician at the Norwegian Medicines Agency, said in a Friday statement (http://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail).
All 13 were nursing home patients and at least 80 years old. While officials aren’t expressing serious concern, they are adjusting their guidance on who should receive the vaccine.
The news comes just over a week after officials reported (http://nypost.com/2021/01/07/norway-investigating-two-deaths-of-people-who-took-pfizer-vaccine) the deaths of just two nursing home residents after they received the Pfizer jab.
Cases overview China (Mainland)http://www.statista.com/statistics/1092918/china-wuhan-coronavirus-2019ncov-confirmed-and-deceased-number/Worldwide
Total cases88,227 Recovered82,387 Deaths4,635
Total cases94.4M Recovered52M Deaths2.02M
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot called Thursday for the city’s restaurants and bars to be reopened as soon as possible, saying that it will prevent COVID-19 from spreading through private parties, because business owners can enforce social distancing protocols.[/q]
One in eight recovered COVID-19 patients reportedly die within 5 monthsBy Yaron Steinbuch
Almost a third of recovered COVID-19 patients (http://nypost.com/2021/01/17/los-angeles-becomes-first-county-to-hit-1-million-covid-19-cases/) end up back in the hospital within five months — and up to one in eight die of complications (http://nypost.com/2020/10/20/man-dies-of-covid-19-long-term-effects-after-hospital-release-family/) from the illness, according to a report.
Researchers at the UK’s Leicester University and the Office for National Statistics found that out of 47,780 people discharged from the hospital, 29.4 percent were readmitted within 140 days, the Telegraph reported (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/17/almost-third-recovered-covid-patients-return-hospital-five-months/).
Of the total, 12.3 percent succumbed to the illness, it added.
Many people who suffer long-lasting effects of the coronavirus (http://nypost.com/2020/08/20/young-healthy-covid-19-survivors-are-facing-long-term-issues/) develop heart problems, diabetes and chronic liver and kidney conditions, according to the report.
“People seem to be going home, getting long-term effects, coming back in and dying. We see nearly 30 percent have been readmitted, and that’s a lot of people. The numbers are so large,” study author Kamlesh Khunti said.
http://nypost.com/2021/01/1
8/1-in-8-recovered-covid-19-patients-die-within-5-months-study/
It's looking more and more like that they should have stomped on this virus early by keeping the first lockdown full on until cases of virus had gone, rest of the world too. Virus firgures of 62 thousand infected here in the UK in most recent day so it looks like it won't be going down quick any time soon, its actually going up a bt. Added to that there now apparently is a new mutant variant of the virus in South Africa that has emerged, highly infectious and worst part is that it doesn't look that the vaccines will be that effective against it at least as far as they can tell at the moment. Virus infection rate and death rate way, way up there in recent days.
Every single passenger on board 2 international flights to Canada informed that they were potentially exposed to COVID-19
Two Air Transat flights had so many people on board infected with COVID-19 that all the passengers are now deemed to be at risk of catching the virus, the Toronto Sun (http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/entire-plane-affected-by-covid-days-after-canada-implements-negative-test-requirement) reported.
- All passengers on board two Air Transat flights from Haiti to Montreal have potentially been exposed to COVID-19, the Toronto Sun (http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/entire-plane-affected-by-covid-days-after-canada-implements-negative-test-requirement) reported.
- Passengers seated in "all rows" have been notified by the Canadian government's exposure tracking system that they need to monitor their symptoms.
- The Canadian government announced on January 7 that a negative coronavirus test is required to fly. Haiti, where these passengers were traveling from, is one of the two territories exempt from this rule.
- More than 70 other international flights to Canada have carried people infected with the coronavirus, according to the Toronto Sun.
- Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories (http://www.businessinsider.com/?hprecirc-bullet?utm_source=yahoo.com&utm_medium=referral).
Flights TS663 AND TS665 - both taking passengers from Haiti to Montreal - were identified by Health Canada as flights with several confirmed coronavirus cases, the paper said.
Now, passengers seated in "all rows" have been notified that they have potentially been exposed to the virus.
The PM came down with it...Pres Trump also---Whatever medicine they were given seems to work.
BoJo has made an absolute blunder of it all, aiming for "victory before Christmas". It is now costing us dearly.
The Oxford vaccine does seem the way to go as it's very promising, affordable, effective, having passed the phase 3 trials properly, and easier to ramp up production when the vaccine super-factory is open.
It's going to start sinking in on how much China has screwed up our lives.
Yes, wife and I often question why this is not happening world wide.
It's going to start sinking in on how much China has screwed up our lives. We'll we ever return to normal?
Cuomo participated in 'coverup' of New York nursing home coronavirus deaths: Rep. Lee Zeldinhttp://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-cuomo-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-coverup
Rep. Lee Zeldin, R-N.Y., on Sunday slammed New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (http://www.foxnews.com/category/person/andrew-cuomo) for "covering up" nursing home deaths in the state during the onset of the coronavirus (http://www.foxnews.com/category/health/infectious-disease/coronavirus) pandemic.
Cuomo, a Democrat, received further criticism over remarks made during a press conference on Friday, his first public statement made since state Attorney General Letitia James, also a Democrat, said that the state Department of Health underreported COVID-19 deaths in nursing homes by as much as 50%.
CUOMO BLAMES NURSING HOME SCANDAL ON 'POLITICAL ATTACK' BY TRUMP ADMINISTRATION (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/cuomo-blames-nursing-home-scandal-on-political-attack-by-trump-admin)
Trying to defend himself with statistics, Cuomo said, "A third of all deaths in this nation are from nursing homes. New York State we’re only about 28% -- only. But we’re below the national average in number of deaths in nursing homes. But who cares? 33, 28 died in hospital, died in the nursing home – they died."
"Whenever you hear him say ‘who cares,’ every time that video is played, I think of the family that lost a loved one – a mom or dad, grandma or grandpa. I don’t look at this story about being about data, statistics, numbers – this is a coverup," Zeldin, a Republican representing New York's 1st congressional district, said in an appearance on Fox News' "Sunday Morning Futures (http://www.foxnews.com/shows/sunday-morning-futures)."
"It’s a coverup of a policy that ended up resulting in that grandmother or grandfather losing their lives," he told host Maria Bartiromo. "Early on, this is the end of March 2020, New York State ordered these nursing homes to take in infected patients and place them with healthy residents and then it spread like wildfire -- which is even a term that Gov. Cuomo has used, and then they covered it up."
China? I don't understand. For almost a year we were told this was Trump's fault. Now its China's fault?I'm not sure what you don't understand. It isn't trump's fault or not likely china's fault either. A virus is a natural event in nature. The fact that it has wrecked so much havoc here is a function of our poor health and laissez faire attitude. China is coming out stronger than ever because of their current population being in better health and younger. In addition they are producing a tremendous volume of goods, and are able to capitalize financially on the rest of the world's want/need for their goods.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-cuomo-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-coverup
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):I'm going to have to agree. Why are total deaths only 57k more than normal? I can understand less deaths due to accidents and things like that if people are staying indoors more, but that doesn't account for how the excess deaths isn't much closer to the number of Covid deaths. I would like to hear what the reason could be.
Year 2017: 2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018: 2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019: 2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020: 2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)
BUT WAIT: There were zero deaths from Covid-19 during 2019 and the jump to 2020 was only 57,641 ??? We have been told that COVID is responsible now for 400,000 + deaths. Shouldn't the 2020 number be larger larger???
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):
Year 2017: 2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018: 2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019: 2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020: 2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)
BUT WAIT: There were zero deaths from Covid-19 during 2019 and the jump to 2020 was only 57,641 ??? We have been told that COVID is responsible now for 400,000 + deaths. Shouldn't the 2020 number be larger larger???
I checked CDC website
2020 3,100,000 + http://usafacts.org/articles
This would give 245,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019
2020 3,200,000 + http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/
This would give 345,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):
Year 2017: 2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018: 2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019: 2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020: 2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)
Here's a website I kept from the beginning. America is currently experiencing 20,000 more deaths per week than what would be considered normal.
Since the number your quoted is completely wrong, your partisan conjecture was also completely off base.
The implications - the severity of the COVID pandemic was overstated for political reasons. Those political leaders of state/local governments who supported lockdowns, etc. to demonstrate their power and to make political gains, now face high costs of recovery. Who will pay for the recovery? Red states whose economy fared better during the lockdown will pay more than their proportionate share. AKA, rewarding bad decision making.
For a year, that amounts to 1,000,000 more deaths than expected. More than 2x COVID deaths!!!!!!
I guess that would be due to increases in stress in many forms: economy, crime, seclusion, ....
Since the number your quoted is completely wrong,...
your partisan conjecture was also completely off base.
I mentioned I had not confirmed the report. You went along with it too! So when pointing fingers, point at yourself too.It was a good example of how bad information can get passed around. I glanced at your post and made the bad assumption that the info was correct. During the day I mentioned the bad information to someone else, it was only later that I happened to see the corrected data by the guys here. I think I would have eventually checked it out myself because it was surprising that only 50k additional deaths occurred.
ML and Billy helped clarify with better data. Good for them!
Some of the warning I've wrote about vaccines here would get me banned if I posted my concerns on Facebook. Social media's agenda is to get people to take the vaccines without question after they promote only positive news on vaccines. FaceBook CEO Mark Zuckerberg got caught saying we don't know the long term side affects of modifying people's DNA and RNA.[/size]
The vaccines were developed by the same folks that wish to depopulate the world, profiting from it yet, folks are lining up to get their shot. For me, that's actually enough reason to not take it but when you add in all of the other sh*t that the vaccines are already "known" to do, like kill the recipient and many cases make them sterile. Change their DNA to RNA for a platform system receptive to future vaccines, like whenTF does one take stock and say wait a minute here? This sh*t hasn't even been tested on animals which means, YOU are the animal. Wake up peopleI'm not sure what information is good and bad regarding the vaccine, but at this time I'm going to have to take my chances with the virus. I'm not interested in the vaccine as of yet.
Biden has something important to say pertaining to America's Coronavirus deaths. Can somebody tell me what he said?Perhaps this will explain........
I encourage everyone to become vaccinated. We have a couple months of experience in America, and everything says the vaccine is functioning as expected.
I'm not going to take an mRNA based vaccine since...
Genetic microbiology is complex. My cousin enjoyed a long career doing such research at Los Alamos. She eagerly went early in line to receive it.
There could be some questions to ask if planning a baby, but not my concern.
There are other options for you such as expected approval of J&J's vaccine. It will not be available, however, in large supply until the summer.
With all the variants mutating and evolving, I expect booster shots will be recommended this year or next year regardless of the vaccine.
Just continue to be careful with social distancing, etc.
The virus doesn't change our DNA? Living changes our DNA.
Choose your poison.
Me? I'll take the vaccination.
I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses a harmless cold coronavirus to train the immune system to attack. This technology been used to make vaccines in the past. It's less effective than mRNA vaccines but nobody has died after acquiring COVID. In other words, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine can help with survival if it doesn't stop the Coronavirus in its tracks. Also, other benefits include it's more easier to store and people will need only one shot instead of two.
Did you know if you take the vaxx,
You can still catch the virus?
You can pass the virus to others?
You will still need to wear a mask?
You will still need to social distance?
You will need more shots?
Did you know if you take the vaxx,
You can still catch the virus?
You can pass the virus to others?
You will still need to wear a mask?
You will still need to social distance?
You will need more shots?
Yes, but meanwhile the risk of death is virtually eliminated. The same can almost be said about experiencing severe symptoms if infected.
Hence, I wanted to be jabbed. Afterwards, I felt some fatigue for three days. I don't know if this means I would have been one of those who would have experienced severe symptoms if I were infected before the vaccine
BTW, the social distancing requirements will depend upon whether your government is red or blue.
Yes and I also know my step father's sister in law died from COVID, my wife's uncle spent a month in the hospital and almost died, and my friend had to go to the hospital 3 times, got blood clots in his lungs and the doctors now tell him he's got to be on medication 6 months and on next hospital visit, they'll determine if he needs to be on oxygen bottles. He may have permanent lung damage. A couple of people who survived told me COVID has been the worst experience in their life.
Well, not so fast.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data)
Gator old friend sometimes I question your critical thinking skills after such a post. Fauci and his minions are telling us after the vaxx 1) we can still get the virus 2) Spread the virus to others 3) need more vaxx.
What is the purpose of the vaxx? Don't try to over think the entire scenario. As an instructor taught me once KISS, "keep it simple stupid".
Deaths were mostly within 48 hours of vaccination which begs the question about cause of death. More study is necessary.
Fauci's pronouncements for the past year have revealed him to be a) wrong about some scientific conclusions, b) untrustworthy because sometimes when wrong he knew better, c) protective of his bureaucracy, and d) completely partisan. Those four can not be refuted. In addition, Fauci may even have some financial stake in the matter. IMO, Fauci should be prohibited from speaking publicly.
The old coot will not be replaced, so we must be suspicious of what he says. Nevertheless, much of what he has said is collaborated by results of scientific research. One backhanded compliment - Fauci is not nearly as bad as my old employer, WHO. :D
KISS I - It protects me Such was proven in the efficacy data from the clinical trials.
KISS II - It protects people around me from me.
While I'm not taking the vax at this time, I do think much of your reasoning is crazy. My belief is the docs aren't evil, and aren't giving false and lying data.
It's unproven and unknown. The folks with the data are lying to us. The question is why?
Their admission is that you can still spread the virus and be infected even after the vaxx. You're a grown man if you feel better with the vaxx, take it. Personally, I fail to see any benefit to injecting unknown nano particles developed by some of the most evil people on earth into my body. Call me crazy but I also see no point in changing or redirecting my immune system. There is something inherently wrong with that. I know many people who have taken the vaxx. I can't understand so many lining up to get it based on the false and lying data we have been given
We're being lied to, question everything. Those who once supposedly had our best health and interests in mind maybe, are following a different agenda. What happened to the seasonal flu?
While big pharma and our government sees opportunity to capitalize on the pandemic and the possible never ending need to create stimulus packages where 75% of the money goes to everything but COVID related issues, the fact is the virus is here to stay. Vaccines won't protect us forever so there's a constant threat. By slowing down the spread of COVID with social distancing and masks, we nearly eliminated flus and colds. Based on a CDC chart I showed Gator earlier, America has 5000 to 20,000 more deaths per week than normal. 20,000 extra deaths per week would amount to 25% of the deaths in America for that week. These extra deaths are not due to increased suicides, guns shots, other illnesses or diseases. It's related to COVID. I don't agree entirely with what the left or right is saying about COVID. Some action needs to be taken but not too much that will severely impact our freedoms and economy. We must find a balance because COVID isn't going away anytime soon. Without any action taken, COVID will significantly impact our life expectancy by about a dozen years they estimate. Although we have a high chance of survival in our younger years, the fact is we can get this disease over and over and it will eventually it will take us out in our advanced years.
Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected.
Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected. Look at the bigger picture, it has been the election virus. They are lying to us and they control the narrativeYou need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.
Wake up Billy, you've been blue pilled. Covid unlike the flu and other viruses we haven't been allowed to develop herd immunity through fear. Covid likely is different in many ways and one way is, it is manipulated in many ways. The fear, the treatment and the accounting. Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected. Look at the bigger picture, it has been the election virus. They are lying to us and they control the narrativeAn election virus. The world was been harmed all due to 'an election virus' in the US? I really don't think so.
You need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.That is one of the better points I've read. The virus is currently killing mainly the unhealthy or old, with some exceptions. There is nothing written in stone that states the virus won't mutate in a way that makes it more deadly for the rest of the populace.
1% if people are a certain age. Odds of dying significantly go up as we get older and we all will get older. Based on how many people died per week in America over what is expected, it's more than 1%. When left unchecked, COVID was easily the number #1 killer of Americans last year and only a fraction of Americans were infected. This virus is a biological weapon. It is significantly more dangerous than the flu. Even at 1% it would be 10 times more deadlier than the flu. I understand big pharma, doctors and politicians will exploit this virus for their benefit but it is a virus harmful enough that action is needed to be taken to combat it. Although Trump doesn't want to limit people's freedoms, he still understands some action is needed and he pumped a lot of money into finding vaccines and treatments for COVID.
You need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.
It's unproven and unknown. The folks with the data are lying to us.
The bigger picture eh? Here's the bigger picture I do see, The same folks looking to inject the world with poison are also the same people who promote and support de-population of the earth. These people are also in leadership positions at the UN, CDC and WHO along with a vaccine that is at least not good for us and at worst will kill us. Yet they are trying to convince the entire world (and doing a pretty good job of it) that taking the vaccine, locking down in your house, losing your jobs, wearing a mask and staying away from others is the only way. Sheep led to slaughter. Do you recall the claim that we must lock down for two weeks to flatten the curve? Take a look at where we are now.How about reading back this topic and seeing Americans gloat that Italy has a 10% death rate and they much lower due to the supreme 'murrican health care. Now the US has 25% of the worlds cases it is the NWO that makes the vaccins Is there any conspiracy theory you do NOT believe?
Covid hasn't killed 5% of the infected at anytime, less than 1% and most of those with underlying conditions. Wake up shadow and take a look at the reality. Any mutations from covid will only be weakened from the original as all viruses are but, that isn't in the narrative being delivered to you. But, not to worry. When the world catches on to the fraud they will simply release another more deadly virus designed to kill more than covid-19 did. They want most of the population dead, remember that. The people in control of this virus and the supposed cure/remedy that will never come are lying to you. Yes, on a grand, world scale. It's time to wake up, you've slept long enough
Efficacy and safety have been proven by large clinical trials for four independently developed vaccines using two entirely different platforms ( mRNA and adeno).
To believe all four of these studies are fake is ludicrous in my opinion. The clinical trials involved thousands of scientists and hundreds of thousands of volunteers, and were overseen by independent regulatory agencies in the US and Europe. To have all conspire together is impossible.
Now add to these four vaccines the other vaccines developed in Russia and China. Now add the millions of mass vaccinations after the trials were approved. All is good - they support the clinical trial findings.
Yes, the news media has proven itself to be dishonest if not corrupt regarding political matters. Yet, there is too much consistency not to believe the integrity of these vaccine developments.
You are correct that more scientific information will be reported, especially given the necessity to develop the vaccines at warp speed. Your cited report yesterday mainly about what happened 48 hours after vaccination is one example. I believe the ongoing research will likely show we need booster shots, or as some contend administer both an mRNA and adeno vaccine (such is now off label). I believe the odds are the future scientific news will be better than we thought, much better. For example, I believe what some knowledgeable scientists now theorize - the vaccines are eliciting T-cell response , something incredibly good if true.
FP, I recall you became ill with some COVID symptoms last year. I suggest you become tested for antibodies. Given your reluctance, a test would help you decide whether to wait for more information. If you don't have antibodies, I believe your life and the lives of your loved ones would be better protected if you were vaccinated. But some individual freedoms still remain in the US.
How about reading back this topic and seeing Americans gloat that Italy has a 10% death rate and they much lower due to the supreme 'murrican health care. Now the US has 25% of the worlds cases it is the NWO that makes the vaccins Is there any conspiracy theory you do NOT believe?
Let's just toss out "conspiracy theory" and shut down all conversation eh? Everything about covid-19 has been wrong, the virus, the transmission, the tests, the vaxx, everything. Yet we should still follow blindly the information coming from the same people that wish us dead. You don't see the insanity of that? Go ahead brother, get your vaxx, put on your mask and shut your mouth. That's the best we can do for humanity?You can just answer the question, no need to get hostile.FYI MrsShadow does not trust the vaxx for COVID, though other vaccines are ok.And we have had symptoms in October 2019, after our trainer returned from the Wushu chamionships in China where hi daughter caught an unknown virus. As usual, far ahead of you....
You can just answer the question, no need to get hostile.FYI MrsShadow does not trust the vaxx for COVID, though other vaccines are ok.And we have had symptoms in October 2019, after our trainer returned from the Wushu chamionships in China where hi daughter caught an unknown virus. As usual, far ahead of you....
Shadow I'm not hostile. We've known each other for a long time, agreed and disagreed on many topics. Like Gator I am not trying to convince you of anything. You'll believe what you believe and I'm okay with that. I do however feel the need to put out some of my opinion on what I perceive as bad information. This is a discussion forum, no? There is so much bad information, glossed over information coming from the MSM and the worse part it is being believed, without question.FP, I understand you and while we may disagree, you always have my respect as a person.Now I understand concerns about the fast development of the vaccines. On the other hand considering the amount of money to be earned from it, it would not be a surprise that companies put all of their best resources to this task.The thing that I find over the top s the 'they want us dead' ideas. Sorry but from people who can not keep a BJ secret I do not expect a hidden world organization, no matter how long the rumours have been flying.If they truly wanted to kill a lot of the population , all needed was to tell people to ignore COVID-19 and consider it nothing more than a flu variant which kills only a few old people.
My apologies, your post looked like more of a statement to me, than a question. There are millions of conspiracy theories that I don't believe. I don't see what I am stating, here, as a conspiracy theory. I see the entire covid fear, testing and vaxx as a conspiracy. Science being hijacked by those with bad intentions and zero concern for humanity. I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me. I've come to my opinion and conclusions through my research. Frankly I could not care less but I do emphasize, research it for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Not blindly accepting the Davos and UN plans for your lives. Whether you vaxx or not is up to you. All I have left to say to you is "I tried to tell you"
FP, I understand you and while we may disagree, you always have my respect as a person.Now I understand concerns about the fast development of the vaccines. On the other hand considering the amount of money to be earned from it, it would not be a surprise that companies put all of their best resources to this task.The thing that I find over the top s the 'they want us dead' ideas. Sorry but from people who can not keep a BJ secret I do not expect a hidden world organization, no matter how long the rumours have been flying.If they truly wanted to kill a lot of the population , all needed was to tell people to ignore COVID-19 and consider it nothing more than a flu variant which kills only a few old people.
Not even close Billy. Covid wasn't the leading killer last year anywhere on the globe. You've bought into the fake news media hook, line and sinker. Limiting people's freedom does not in anyway affect the virus. Wake up and come out of that blue pill stuper you're in
Efficacy and safety have been proven by large clinical trials for four independently developed vaccines using two entirely different platforms ( mRNA and adeno).
We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan.
Since COVID came on the scene, 5000-20,000 more Americans are dying every week than what is expected. This is happening. People who have survived may also get temporary or lifelong organ damage. I blame the excess deaths on COVID. You can blame the excess deaths on drownings, drug overdoses or whatever you want but the excess deaths are happening.
I'm starting to believe there is a cabal that has blackmail material on a lot of our politicians and judges based on their behavior of ignoring election fraud. SCOTUS Chief Justice Roberts used to be a conservative judge and now rules with the liberal judges. He has a history of falling and getting black eyes. Last time it happened, he was unconscious and had to be taken to the hospital. He kept this injury secret for two weeks until journalists probed him for answers to the injuries to his face. Mitt Romney has moved to the left the last few years. I think somebody has blackmail material on him. They must not have liked something he done. Today it was reported Romney fell and got a black eye which left him unconscious.
Fake news. I would think that you of all people would have done your research and know better. Never expect the liar to tell you the truth
We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan. It has become painfully obvious to me that covid and/or the vaxx is part of that plan. Rarely does anything happen by chance especially when there are profit motivations. 50 more pharma companies could enter the current covid vaxx market and they all be profitable. If they have their way all 7.8 billion people on earth will take the vaxx. This isn't about a virus. If it were it would have been handled as equal viruses in the past have been. It's about control, politics and profit. More importantly it is about murder. It's very likely a bioweaponThink about it. If the plan is to kill most of the world population why throw billions at research, support plans an vaccines. All you need to do is convince those people the virus is near harmless and then see them get killed. Job done.These people with their pln must be full idiots to use all that money for something they can get for free.
They do want to kill a large portion of the worlds population. We are literally witnessing Nazi Germany all over again. If the population doesn't wake up soon, we'll be living it again. They do have a plan and for now it is about putting poison into every one's body. It can only get worse from there
We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan.
Think about it. If the plan is to kill most of the world population why throw billions at research, support plans an vaccines. All you need to do is convince those people the virus is near harmless and then see them get killed. Job done.These people with their pln must be full idiots to use all that money for something they can get for free.
Even Trump took action on COVID. China didn't release a harmless virus. It's a virus that belongs in level 4 labs which house the most deadly pathogens known to man. Let the virus run loose without taking action, you'll have refrigerated trucks sitting outside hospitals to take the dead to the graveyards. If it was a harmless virus or a virus no deadlier than the flu, Trump wouldn't have taken the action he took starting with a travel ban.
If true, who could be the cabal? To answer that, we must ask who would benefit and how? But before that, we need to know how the vaccination will affect humans negatively.
COVID originated in China, so any analysis of a cabal starts with China. If you believe the vaxx will eventually result in the early death of the recipient, that rules out China as the cabal because China needs a growing world population to consume its manufacturing goods. Besides China disclosed the genome sequencing early in the pandemic, knowing it would speed development of vaccinations. Also, China vaccinates its own people.
Who is the next suspect? The climate change theorists?
COVID originated in China, so any analysis of a cabal starts with China. If you believe the vaxx will eventually result in the early death of the recipient, that rules out China as the cabal because China needs a growing world population to consume its manufacturing goods. Besides China disclosed the genome sequencing early in the pandemic, knowing it would speed development of vaccinations. Also, China vaccinates its own people.
I got mine the other day, no problems at all.
http://tinyurl.com/paf27jbp
It is a rabbit hole Shadow. Suppose that the virus is near harmless. It's not totally harmless but it isn't any different than other viruses mankind has dealt with. What is different is the manufactured, planned response to it. The idea to get a new untested, hurried vaxx into everyone on earth. The after effects, side effects and consequences be dammed. You can't sue them and Big Pharma is protected. The billions are miniscule to the quad trillions they stand to make. But even that isn't their end goal.
They have been planning it for years and what's worse is they have been telling us all along. Dr Bill Gates the scientist, no wait, he's neither a doctor or a scientist. He's just a man with a computer platform background. Have you noticed his relationship with Tony Fauci and George Soros?
Here is Gates almost 10 years ago telling us the end goal. Included in it is the justification with junk science. Reducing the population by 15% equates 1 billion people. That isn't all their plan calls for but this very likely is the beginning of a controlled genocide. The treatment for covid has been the killer, not covid. Why was effective therapeutics ignored and anyone attempting to tell the world cancelled?
“I believe that this virus is going to change and that the vaccines we have approved right now are just not going to be as effective as we think they are,” says Danny Altmann (http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/d.altmann), an immunologist at Imperial College London. SARS-CoV-2 has already evolved several new variants—including the ones first identified in the U.K. and South Africa (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-new-covid-variants-undermine-vaccines-labs-scramble-to-find-out/), which are more transmissible (though not—for now, at least—more deadly).http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-second-generation-covid-vaccines-are-coming/
Gregory Poland (http://www.mayo.edu/research/faculty/poland-gregory-a-m-d/bio-00078220), a vaccinologist at the Mayo Clinic, agrees it is far too early to think we have this virus beat. He points out that no vaccine for a coronavirus has ever been deployed in a public vaccination program. And mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer’s and Moderna’s—touted by many as the future of vaccinology—have never previously been brought to market. “We don’t know what we don’t know. We have no idea what surprises we might find in a virus that we’ve only been aware of for a year,” says Poland, who co-authored an extensive review of COVID-19 vaccine candidates (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32137-1/fulltext) in the Lancet last October. “And the history of vaccinology—in which I’ve been involved for four decades—is amply littered with things we thought we knew.”
who could be the cabal?
More fake news. The virus hit the world scene almost instantly. Trump had no choice but to react to the fear being pumped to the masses 24/7.
M Perhaps this was a pre-planned pandemic to be executed when needed?
Trump did tell the world to not let the cure to be worse than the disease and that is exactly whats been happening.
TTurn off your TV news Billy and research. Get out of the media fog.
Wrong. There was no fear among the masses when Trump took action. Trump was scolded for taking action with the first being travel bans. I knew China manipulated their infections and deaths so the virus wasn't looking very dangerous. Trump knew that too. Trump also knew they were lying when China told the world the virus is human to human transferable.
I can agree certain groups capitalized off the pandemic but if the virus was harmless, there would be no action taken by Trump.
[/font]
Trump did not say the virus was harmless and no action was needed. He told people that too much action would mean the cure would be worse than the problem. This virus is dangerous and will hurt the economy. There needs to be action but not too much action. There has to be a balance.
I don't watch tv but I do research and right wing news can be wrong too. Trump will never say this virus is harmless or no action is needed to be taken against it. If you don't want to believe me, maybe you'll believe Trump?
Who said the virus was harmless Billy? The Chinese were lying when they said it was person to person transferable?
My bad. I meant to say 'wasn't human to human transferable. A lot of people on the right are saying no action is needed to be taken against the virus that causes COVID. They say the virus is not any more dangerous than the flu. They say we should get on with life business as usual as if COVID is another flu or cold we're dealing with. If this wasn't dangerous, Trump would've called out the BS by now. My stance is I'm for some action but not too much action.
None of the reaction or the fear mongering makes sense for this virus and can not be proven to make sense using real science. Is that clear enough for you?
There's no sense in waiting on Trump to call out the BS. You have more than enough evidence to do that yourself but, you don't believe it is BS, do you? The virus is real Billy. I can't say I know anyone who would state otherwise. Real science also confirms this. It doesn't confirm from whence it came or why. What real science doesn't confirm is the lock downs, the masks, the medical treatments, the vaxx and more specifically the accounting of the deaths. That is the junk science of this Plandemic. None of the reaction or the fear mongering makes sense for this virus and can not be proven to make sense using real science. Is that clear enough for you?Scientists around the world will be thanking you for calling their work junk.
Scientists around the world will be thanking you for calling their work junk.
QuoteWho is the next suspect? The climate change theorists?
The next suspect for what? You and I will never agree on climate change aka global warming or what ever is the next moniker...........
FP,Gator, as FP has bought in to the Alex Jones version of the world, his opinions are simple.Everything he does not like or is afraid of comes from the hands of the world government that is planning to kill off a large part of the world population.These people are anonymous yet well known, and spend billions USD, EUR and Rubles to pay scientists and media to make it look like they do science, all while attempting to ind a way to kill people.
I am attempting to grasp your opinions about vaccinations.
FP,
I am attempting to grasp your opinions about vaccinations.
COVID is contagious and can be lethal, yet not as severe as the Democrats portrayed it. With an accommodating news media, the strategy was to engender maximum fear and blame Trump, thereby influencing the election.
It is becoming more and more evident that many of the policies to engender fear had little basis in science. For those who see this, it makes them suspicious of government initiatives to protect us. And one would think now that Biden is President, the ruse would slacken. Such has not happened yet, as for example many schools remained closed. And spending bills are proposed that would help states who closed their economies. And for states that endeavored to minimize lockdowns...........
Just because the Democrats overplayed the pandemic for political reasons does not mean the vaccinations are a devious ploy with grave consequences. That mRNA platform you name holds much promise, and it may in the future save your life from cancer.
Gator, as FP has bought in to the Alex Jones version of the world, his opinions are simple.Everything he does not like or is afraid of comes from the hands of the world government that is planning to kill off a large part of the world population.These people are anonymous yet well known, and spend billions USD, EUR and Rubles to pay scientists and media to make it look like they do science, all while attempting to ind a way to kill people.
Unfortunately for FP when you use a more skeptic part of the brain you will understand hat if people would have such amount of money and wanted to kill a large part of the population, they could do so without spending billions.
But it is more easy to monger fear, sell quackery and discredit people who dedicate their life to he advance of science.
John I can't stand Alex Jones and my opinions are my own.You have opinions that is all they are. They are based on mistrust in authority and fear.
WASHINGTON – Five states have announced rolling back mask mandates in major recalls of COVID-19 safety measures over the past month – leaving many to wonder whether other states will join the tide and alter how the country is dealing with COVID-19 at a crucial moment in the fight against the disease.BAD IDEA.
But like so much with the pandemic, the path ahead is unclear. Cities, businesses and families are often making their own choices of whether to wear masks or go to restaurants, despite governors in Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Montana and Iowa declaring that state mandates would no longer be needed to prevent the spread of COVID-19.http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/03/03/covid-19-texas-mississippi-join-states-rolling-back-mask-mandates/6905305002/
Major American retail chains (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/03/03/texas-mask-mandate-target-best-buy-starbucks-kroger-albertsons/6913293002/) across the country such as Kroger, Best Buy Co., Kohl’s and Ulta are sticking to their policies to require masks in stores. Some local mayors are telling residents to ignore the words of their state governors.
How much trouble is it really to wear a surgical type mask?
Unfortunately for FP when you use a more skeptic part of the brain......
But it is more easy to monger fear, sell quackery and discredit people who dedicate their life to he advance of science.
The tone of the political strife in the US is absurd...and you do your part to participate and add to it.
It seems to start with some Democrat talking points, which go unchallenged and are reported as gospel by the liberal news media....and the republican talking points which go unchallenged and reported as gospel on conservative outlets.
. Biden's failings are stunningYour efforts to immediately make statements about biden's 'failings' only demonstrate your own tremendous bias. He has only been there for 40 days, he hasn't had time to be a failure yet. Actually he is about the same as trump, except quite a bit better so far.
yes you are affected and not in a good way either. Everything coming from the conservative outlets should be viewed with suspicion. You have made the thread about politics with your post. You are doing summersaults to try to defend FP. If it had been a conservative president, and an 'evil liberal' espousing what FP is, you would be attempting to attack that poster. In this case you are disagreeing amicably which you refuse to do in many other cases. Humorous to view/read your explanation this time.
The disinformation has affected me.to the point I view everything from the liberal press with suspicion. And behold, my suspicions are usually confirmed as the truth unfolds. If this keeps up, conspiracy theories may seem plausible by comparison. I spare you the newer examples of disinformation, and besides this thread is about COVID, not politics. Nevertheless, the world of COVID has been politicized.
John I can't stand Alex Jones and my opinions are my own. If you wish to have a discussion and dialogue without the condescension I willing but, anymore of this tripe I won't even respond. But, I would be interested to know how you think someone might kill off a large part of the world population?Interesting that while you can not stand him you are proclaiming the same type of fear mongering. Good that you can not stand him, now to abolish he similar ideas.
Interesting that while you can not stand him you are proclaiming the same type of fear mongering. Good that you can not stand him, now to abolish he similar ideas.
Depending on ow ast you want it to happen, currently there are two options. Nuclear war and an EMP that renders our electronics useless. especially the second one will collapse society and kill off most of us as the amount of people being able to feed themselves without a store is minimal.
..and you do your part to participate and add to it.
These people have been hiding in plain sight for centuries controlling every aspect of the financial system and the earth's inhabitants. They have started most every war for financial gain and the death and destruction it brings.
I forgot to add to my list the like of George Soros, et al.
We elect our government leaders to consider all facts, deliberate the many issues and make tradeoffs for the better good. If vaccinations are a sinister, mass murder plot, why are most of our government leaders volunteering to be jabbed?
I forgot to add to my list the like of George Soros, et al.
We elect our government leaders to consider all facts, deliberate the many issues and make tradeoffs for the better good. If vaccinations are a sinister, mass murder plot, why are most of our government leaders volunteering to be jabbed?
Also, didn't mean to avoid this but, are we sure they are getting jabbed? Pelosi and Biden's videos weren't very convincing. Remember, HCQ and remdesvir (sp) and other therapeutics are as successful as the vaxx. That info is out there but again, it's not on the mediaThe problem with any cure or vaccine is testing. As patients can recover without medicine, a control group is needed for double blind test to establish significant results.This is one of the reasons why development takes a long time, apart from side effects. To ensure something actually works against a 90% chance of recovering without anything is not simple. You either need a large amount of people trying or a long time.
Well then it looks like I've rubbed off on you. Just a few years ago, you were fully supportive of US interventions around the globe, and the goodness of the US. Nowadays you have changed your view of the US, and US foreign policy which is indeed repugnant.
The one word to describe our government is repugnant.
The problem with any cure or vaccine is testing. As patients can recover without medicine, a control group is needed for double blind test to establish significant results.This is one of the reasons why development takes a long time, apart from side effects. To ensure something actually works against a 90% chance of recovering without anything is not simple. You either need a large amount of people trying or a long time.
I'm going to take a shot that is going to change my immune system and require that I take many more shots or, I'm going to risk not taking a shot and let my untainted immune system do what it has done since the beginning of humanity.One of the first things in months that makes a little sense! Although I'm not aligned on the grand conspiricy part, I'm on board with holding off on vaccines at this time, (Which may be a signal to you to jump ship). :D
I'm going to take my chances with the latter :D
Considering that I regularly need to reset my immune system to stop looking like Freddy Krueger, I am unsure if that is a good idea in my case. But as our family is a team, vaxxing is postponed until MrsShadow considers it safe enough, or one of our sons graduates in virology, which may take a goo 15 years.
I'm going to take a shot that is going to change my immune system and require that I take many more shots or, I'm going to risk not taking a shot and let my untainted immune system do what it has done since the beginning of humanity.
I'm going to take my chances with the latter :D
vaxxing is postponed until MrsShadow considers it safe enough
If you think COVID is bad, try disagreeing with the boss.As usual Russia just responds in the same way media called out the Russian vaccines as unreliable.
In other news, American media is claiming Russia is putting out disinformation on American vaccines. I read the article and I don't see disinformation. American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.
http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/ (http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/)
American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/adverse-incident-reports-show-966-deaths-following-vaccination-for-covid-19_3723384.html?utm_source=morningbrief&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mb-2021-03-07
I'm not sure why people are believing the vaccine is the key to 'herd immunity' when every single information you have, including that of the indelible Mr. Anthony Fauci, that it doesn't keep you from getting infected, it doesn't stop you from infecting other and spreading the virus...all it really does is 'lessen' the effects of the symptoms...
Knowing this, why didn't they just produced Regeneron ( The therapy they used on Boris, Trump and Bolsanaro) instead of the billions spent on vaccine and the time and lives wasted waiting for the release of the vaccine/s?
If you think COVID is bad, try disagreeing with the boss.
In other news, American media is claiming Russia is putting out disinformation on American vaccines. I read the article and I don't see disinformation. American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.
http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/ (http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/)
Worse....it manipulates the immune system to hinder or stop any natural herd immunity. Remember there is a treatment with HCQ
Nah...too cheap bro. Plus it's widely available.
Worse....it manipulates the immune system to hinder or stop any natural herd immunity. Remember there is a treatment with HCQYup the heart failure and epileptic seizures are just an added bonus.
And as effective as a vaxx
Yup the heart failure and epileptic seizures are just an added bonus.
Not sure how it is elsewhere, but fascinating is happening here in California/LA. They converted the testing station sites to add and compliment the vaccine sites. Guess what happened? The *infection rate* went down!!!! It's a hotdang MIRACLE, man!!!!
An aside: Has Biden been out of the WH yet? The big house is pretty BIG, but confined inside those walls, it's still gotta get to you...soon as the COVID- relief bill gets passed, California stands to reap over half a trillion big ones! 5% of which is for COVID relief...thanks to all the taxpayers from the other 49er...
California stands to reap over half a trillion big ones! 5% of which is for COVID relief...thanks to all the taxpayers from the other 49er...
As long as Biden keeps interest rates the same as seen under Trump, the nation can handle the increased debt.
Think how disappointed Jerome will be to find out that he doesn't control interest rates .
Are you going to take up any of the vaccines Billy or are you antivac?
The vaxx deaths continue to mount. Of course they keep attempting to convince people how important it is and how bad they need it. There is a good comparison of death and adverse reaction of covid vaxx vs flu vaxx in this story
I'm not antivac. I take a flu vaccine once every 3 or 4 years. I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses an old tried and true method of building up immunity by taking pieces of a harmless coronavirus that causes the common cold and injecting it into our bodies so our immune system will likely attack the virus that causes COVID when it shows up.
Fake News Fact Checking sites are trying to dismiss the Epoch Times story. People can go to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at the CDC website themselves and play with the search engine. For the few months COVID vaccines came out 578 deaths happened after people took the Moderna vaccine, 578 deaths happened after people take the Pfizer vaccine. 5 deaths happened after taking a vaccine from an unknown manufacture. 1153 deaths so far from all COVID vaccines. Fake news says many of the deaths is not COVID related(how do they know?) but here's a comparison. I did a search for deaths that happened for all influenza vaccines in the last 40 years and the total deaths are 1184 which is almost the same as the COVID deaths that happened within a few months. I'm sure not all deaths are influenza vaccine related but it's apparent, dying after taking the COVID vaccine is 100 times more likely than dying after taking the flu vaccine. This could be mRNA related. It's such a powerful vaccine that they can't give it in one shot. A vaccine like Johnson and Johnson's may lower the death rate as it gets distributed since it's created like many of the flu vaccines we take.
http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=2E35B91B4077E739FA1CA9A38888
Fake News Fact Checking sites are trying to dismiss the Epoch Times story. People can go to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at the CDC website themselves and play with the search engine. For the few months COVID vaccines came out 578 deaths happened after people took the Moderna vaccine, 578 deaths happened after people take the Pfizer vaccine. 5 deaths happened after taking a vaccine from an unknown manufacture. 1153 deaths so far from all COVID vaccines. Fake news says many of the deaths is not COVID related(how do they know?) but here's a comparison. I did a search for deaths that happened for all influenza vaccines in the last 40 years and the total deaths are 1184 which is almost the same as the COVID deaths that happened within a few months. I'm sure not all deaths are influenza vaccine related but it's apparent, dying after taking the COVID vaccine is 100 times more likely than dying after taking the flu vaccine. This could be mRNA related. It's such a powerful vaccine that they can't give it in one shot. A vaccine like Johnson and Johnson's may lower the death rate as it gets distributed since it's created like many of the flu vaccines we take.
http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=2E35B91B4077E739FA1CA9A38888
If they counted the vaxx deaths the way they counted covid-19 deaths they would already be in the 100's of 1000's. I.E. those that died with the vaxx as opposed to died by the vaxx
One can still become infected after receiving the vaccine. My friend's wife had COVID five days after her first jab of Moderna. She was very ill, yet recovered.Well that's true but only one is manipulating the immune system for permanent changes as opposed to the other that has been used and studied for almost 70 years. I'm not sure what you're attempting to defend here Gator. Are we needing the Pfizer injection to combat the variants yet, can still become infected, still distance and wear a mask? Forgive me but I've yet to see a benefit of any of the vaxx?
The immunity is demonstrated 14 days after the second jab, so that is 5-6 weeks after the first jab.
FP, consider the 100,000 volunteers in the clinical trials. Those volunteers are still being studied. For example, the Pfizer vaccine has been shown to be equally effective against the Brazilian variant.
There is so much information. Whether its a vaccine or a therapeutic, both still involve administering something foreign into one's body.
Those volunteers are still being studied.
Forgive me but I've yet to see a benefit of any of the vaxx?
Some studies will take years to complete. I hope for the hundreds of millions of Americans that took an mRNA vaccine, they'll be okay 5, 10, 15+ years from now. If I could give one tip to the people reading, I'd say choose a vaccine that's not mRNA based. Take one that uses an old school tried and true method to create. The Johnson and Johnson vaccine is the only one in America I'd consider taking since it contains harmless pieces of coronaviruses that cause the common cold. Those pieces can't replicate and our immune system will likely recognize and attack the coronavirus that causes COVID if it shows up.
I have not read any big announcement that the vaccines are a success. I have no doubt they are preventing people from getting COVID but the preventive measures we've taken earlier have already protected the elderly and most vulnerable from dying. Younger people who go to work and out in public are much less likely to die so vaccines won't save a majority of those people's lives. The best benefit I see from vaccines is that is slows the spread of COVID. I doubt these temporary lasting vaccines will stop and eradicate COVID off the face of the earth. We're going to have to live with this China virus forever.
Just some common myths debunked:- mRNA can no change the DNA of a person. It does not work like a retrovirus- the vaccine can not turn in to a new virus.
The reason he mRNA is declared safe is that there is no possibility of it becoming anything else. While it is new technology, the COVID-19 research has taken years of the development due to the funding available.Yes money is important to develop, just as the willingness and availability of many volunteers.
While I understand that the speed of development can be suspicious, at the same time this is also an unprecedented case for the developers.
It may not change DNA etc but that's not to say it could not do damage, block body systems & have unforeseen consequences . The there is the unanswered long term affect that we won't know until we get there. I for one have no wish to be a lab rat in the study.And how long will you wait to declare it safe?
I have not read any big announcement that the vaccines are a success. I have no doubt they are preventing people from getting COVID but the preventive measures we've taken earlier have already protected the elderly and most vulnerable from dying. Younger people who go to work and out in public are much less likely to die so vaccines won't save a majority of those people's lives. The best benefit I see from vaccines is that is slows the spread of COVID. I doubt these temporary lasting vaccines will stop and eradicate COVID off the face of the earth. We're going to have to live with this China virus forever.
Just some common myths debunked:- mRNA can no change the DNA of a person. It does not work like a retrovirus- the vaccine can not turn in to a new virus.
The reason he mRNA is declared safe is that there is no possibility of it becoming anything else. While it is new technology, the COVID-19 research has taken years of the development due to the funding available.Yes money is important to develop, just as the willingness and availability of many volunteers.
While I understand that the speed of development can be suspicious, at the same time this is also an unprecedented case for the developers.
And how long will you wait to declare it safe?
Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids!
Yes, but all you will get to do is jerk off into a small plastic container.
Or, perhaps they will insert a square needle into your testicles to withdraw the sperm.
Perhaps check the scientific papers instead of fearmedia.And I could do with a lower fertility. :D
One doesn't need to wait till an mRNA vaccine is declared safe. If one wants a vaccine, there are options that are proven safer. All one has to do is review the studies conducted by Pfizer and Moderna to see some studies like reproductive toxicity hasn't been concluded. It takes years for certain studies to be concluded. No amount of money to speed up the process will help a study that requires 'time'. Even the FDA says certain studies of those vaccines haven't been concluded. Last I read, WHO has not approved mRNA vaccines. Maybe 5 years from now we'll learn mRNA has harmed a male's ability to produce sperm or harm the sperm enough to cause birth defects. Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids!
It really doesn't even slow down the virus. Has anything slowed down the Flu or pneumonia? Wait, have we even heard of the flu, pneumonia or the common cold last year? covid-19 is a scam and the sooner folks wake up to that idea the better off we'll all be.
Denmark and Norway have suspended the use of the Oxford vaccine after reports of severe blood clots affecting a number of patients who've had the vaccine.ke up
Italy saying they've banned a particular batch.
I had my covid-19 vaccine invite earlier this week..i told them i'll ring them back when i'm ready to have it.
I've done everything wrong, stayed open, never washed my hands, no mask 99% of the time, and I'm not quite dead yet. I guess I believe the people running the show are being relatively truthful, but still I chose to continue with my lifestyle and hope for the best.
Science bombed us with repeated harping of strict practice of washing our hands and general hygiene practices to prevent infection. LMAO. Tell that to LA’s homeless population! Stay indoors, lockdowns, close businesses, work at home, home studies....now science is speculating the reason homeless people fared so much better than the gullible is because they live ‘outdoors’ and not indoors. Everything they told us that pose the highest risks to COVID perfectly describes conditions homeless people are in everyday.
. Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids!Just great a planet full of toilet paper and hot babe hogs like trenchcoat and billyb.
ke up
For me at my age I'm willing to take a small chance and if it all goes south then its just the way it goes, not going to live forever nor I'm sure I would want too.
My 53 year-old brother,who has Diabetes type 2, had his first Pfizer jab last week with no ill-effects so far.
His wife ,who's 46 and has Asthma,had her Oxford jab in the same week and was really ill next day with nausea and vomiting but she's fine now.
My brother is nagging me to get mine but i'm inclined to think like GQBlues on this in that i survived the darkest Corona times without any problems..so what's the rush ?
I did have my first Flu jab this year though ; )
Perhaps check the scientific papers instead of fearmedia.And I could do with a lower fertility. :D
We haven’t found immunity for the common flu what makes you believe this vaccine can against COVID? Take the vaccine if you think it helps. If this virus is as deadly as most believe it is, catch up on reality a bit and look up mortality rate, whether domestic or global. Survivability rate, CFR....
BillyB, and how did you conclude that his can cause a problem wit fertility?
From Pfizer's and the FDA's own websites, the safety trials pertaining to toxic reproductivity has not been concluded.And if you read the rest of my post, you notice this is not about your BillyB count but about messing with a pregnancy. You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.
And if you read the rest of my post, you notice this is not about your BillyB count but about messing with a pregnancy. You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.
A compromised immune system in males also affect sperm count. Just FYII know what you mean... I was born with one and every time I have unprotected sex it causes a pregnancy... :TMI:
I know what you mean... I was born with one and every time I have unprotected sex it causes a pregnancy... :TMI:
You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.
And once again the fear of your manhood stops you from reading the point of that advice.
Shadow, I gave an example of what could go wrong. You gave an example of what could go wrong. There are many things that could go wrong. There is an ongoing study of reproductive toxicity that may not conclude for years. They currently don't know everything that could go wrong. They have an idea but they aren't certain. Maybe nothing goes wrong but it would be a shame years from now they told people they made a mistake. Before I came here to educate people about mRNA vaccines, which the media failed to do, some or most of you guys would give that vaccine to your kids. Now after learning more about mRNA vaccines, nobody should be giving those vaccines to their kids or pushing them on adults who still want to have kids.
I hope you read the Pfizer documents I provided telling the volunteers in their study to not have unprotected sex. Did anybody here who also got the mRNA vaccine get that warning too before they injected it into your body?
the fear
:D While I can appreciate your injection of humor, I was stating fact. Big Pharma stated early on that a side effect of the vaxx could likely be a lower sperm count and an interruption of menstrual cycles and egg production. They admit this.
Interesting theory although population is already set to decline in much of the world. The parts of the world where population is rising don't have very good access to the vaccines and most of the deaths weren't in their regions either.
I theorize that maybe the world population haven't had a check balance in its explosive growth lately that we needed a way to curb or regulate our uncontrollable population ascent. We haven't suffered global conflicts that resulted in tens of millions of deaths. Wars, plagues, etc...had been held in check for decades now. They tried AIDS, Ebola, SARS, MERS, and now COVID-19 and FWIW - it's total flop...2.5 million dead and the majority of which are literally past their reproductive ages.
Here’s a good information site from the same source we get a lot of the COVID-related data from. It’s a perpetual information source of all things that can be accounted for, deaths, birth, etc...
http://www.worldometers.info/
There’s a 1:1 ratio of obese people in the world compared to those who are starved. While we went bonkers at the tally of COVID related deaths, abortion count this year is already a whopping 8 million. Nearly 11,000 folks already died from hunger so far today. Which is probably attributable to the 1.4 million children deaths under 5 so far this year. Etcetera.
What a difference it makes when something is sensationalize by the media and it becomes political.
8 million abortion in one year! Damn, and no one bats an eye. How many perished in the holocausts again?
I suspect had people lived the exact way we did before the death count would be 5 times more dead in the states ...maybe more.
In the current case . . . what would the death rate and total deaths have been, if we did not undergo a partial or total lockdown and if we did/do not inoculate a large percentage of the population?
Only computer models with various assumptions can give estimated answers.
I know nothing about anything.
However, I do know that in any scientific studies . . . the unknown is, what would have happened in the absence of action X.
In the current case . . . what would the death rate and total deaths have been, if we did not undergo a partial or total lockdown and if we did/do not inoculate a large percentage of the population?
Only computer models with various assumptions can give estimated answers.
The new coronavirus was named SARS-CoV-2, belongs to β-coronaviruses based on the genome sequence and infects the upper and lower respiratory tract. Symptoms of the novel coronavirus strain are milder than SARS and MERS, but it transmits from human-to-human faster than them. Besides, the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is lower (3.4%) than that of SARS-CoV (9.6%) and MERS (35%) [5].
Interesting theory although population is already set to decline in much of the world. The parts of the world where population is rising don't have very good access to the vaccines and most of the deaths weren't in their regions either.
If I recall correctly many projections are speeding up the day where the world hits it's peak population, and the number is lower than it was a few years ago.
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
I've heard that but find it strange. As a whole most but not all people are living longer I would have thought than decades ago. So that would keep the population figures up a bit. Add to that say a couple that knock out kids at 20 in 20 years time they can knock out kids (or sooner) so would think that is a pretty fast multiplying situation. I know they say there are more single people than previous decades but I don't really notice that out and around. Still seems to be couples, families to me really. Makes me wonder where all these single people are and what they do with their time. I've always kind of got the impression that most people fear being alone in life so always seemed to think they find others and are interested in having children as with a lot of relationships they can end at any time.It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?
It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?
Likewise, as the poorer economies catch up, as women have better access to contraception and education, their birth rates slow down to a point where their populations are not being replaced.
Africa 2.4 1.8 0.6 Asia 0.8 0.1 −0.4 Europe 0.0 −0.3 −0.1 Latin America 0.8 0.2 −0.5 Northern America 0.6 0.3 0.2 Oceania 1.2 0.8 0.4 World 1.0 0.5 0.0 |
Correct.
Most people wrongly think India and China will grow significantly. Africa is the only continent with significant population growth. The population of Nigeria is expected to surpass the US by 2050.
Expected 21st century annual population growth (% annual change)
2020-25 2045-50 2095-00
Africa 2.4 1.8 0.6
Asia 0.8 0.1 −0.4
Europe 0.0 −0.3 −0.1
Latin America 0.8 0.2 −0.5
Northern America 0.6 0.3 0.2
Oceania 1.2 0.8 0.4
World 1.0 0.5 0.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth
It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?Yes, many people in western countries have chosen to not create children, or have tried and been unsuccessful. Immigration is necessary to keep the countries from becoming too grey. In the case of the USA the graying and gaying of America would have already caused major problems if not for the last few waves of illegal immigrants. If indeed america is great, it is their children that are responsible!
Anyway virus rates going up in Ukraine, have you heard off how things are on the ground there of recent Billy?
Meanwhile France has just suspended the use of the Astra Zenaca vaccine along with some other EU countries already doing the same. That will likely prolong their virus problem as they are already short of vaccine so it will make their vaccine supply issues worse. First they can't get enough of the Oxford vaccine now they don't want to use it lol. In any case I'm still happy to take the Oxford vaccine, even if there is a link with blood clotting the odds are real low, a handful out of 17 million who have already taken the vaccine. For me dying is one thing but living with lifelong bad health is the thing to really avoid I feel.
Yes, many people in western countries have chosen to not create children, or have tried and been unsuccessful. Immigration is necessary to keep the countries from becoming too grey. In the case of the USA the graying and gaying of America would have already caused major problems if not for the last few waves of illegal immigrants. If indeed america is great, it is their children that are responsible!I don’t think immigration is the answer because, guess what? Immigrants grow old too.
Fathertime!
Going by these stats Gator while populations are looking like they are going to decrease in some parts of the world it's not quite the 'collapse' John Gaunt seems to suggest. Looks to me more like they level off then decline a little and that's probably not a bad thing if we consider stuff like robotics, online shopping, computer automation, etc likely to decrease the number of jobs available in the future. It will also mean we'll be able to keep consuming meat without cutting down any more rainforest which is a big bear for environmentalists.Gators numbers are from Wicki so may not be the most reliable.
I've heard the UK's population will likely keep up mainly due to immigration while other countries populations may decline. I still think there will only be slight falling off overall. Some couples just have one child so that means when they pass on they aren't both replaced at the same rate. Probably just as well we're not all pushing out loads of kids like they used too as then I think that would be a far greater cause for concern & trouble than a bit off a fall off in numbers.
I don’t think immigration is the answer because, guess what? Immigrants grow old too.You are wrong, where did I mention biden? What does biden have to do with this? Why are you making it political now? BTW, I wasn't a trump supporter, nor am I am 'bidener', although he may be better than trump.
I think the answer is advocacy for a simpler lifestyle without the rampant consumerism that drives modern economies.
Then there wouldn’t be the need for the huge labour forces to fill jobs to create products or support lifestyles that one can really do without.
PS. I know you’re a Bidener but no need to make this political.
You are wrong, where did I mention biden? What does biden have to do with this? Why are you making it political now? BTW, I wasn't a trump supporter, nor am I am 'bidener', although he may be better than trump.Just going by the tone of your posts on balance you come across as more of a Bidener even if you haven’t explicitly mentioned him.
Of course I would agree partially with rampant consumerism comment, although that is the American way nowadays. Most of our consumer goods are made in China, so it isn't as if our labor force is being used locally. The immigrants are the plumbers, the roofers, the drywallers....the custodians...they are staff in old age homes. Despite the grumblings, by and large we are lucky to have them at our beck and call...for now.
Fathertime!
Just going by the tone of your posts on balance you come across as more of a Bidener even if you haven’t explicitly mentioned him.So why are you making up BS about biden and attributing it to me? Stick to the point which wasn't biden. Why don't you take a look at the post you are saying I 'biden'fied' and explain how you came to that I bidenfied the topic? I've simply stated a view on immigration illegal and legal.
What are you saying here? without the immigrants in recent decades the US would already be an old greying nation. As earlier stated, the immigrants are providing many services that our nation wants. They often take care of the elderly for example, and also childcare. Building houses is dominated by immigrants and the sons/daughters of immigrants. Agriculture too. I don't see many 75 year olds picking grapes and strawberries. Of course there are other solutions.
It’s not just consumerism though. It’s the whole way of life predicated around consumerism, regardless of where products are made. End result, society requires masses of labour.
What is the 'same problem'? Is there currently a pressing problem? In 50 years, technology may well solve a lot of the potential problems, and overall population is on course to slow and perhaps decline.
You support immigration but it really isn’t the solution as that just eventually leads back to the same problem.
So why are you making up BS about biden and attributing it to me? Stick to the point which wasn't biden. Why don't you take a look at the post you are saying I 'biden'fied' and explain how you came to that I bidenfied the topic? I've simply stated a view on immigration illegal and legal.Why are you getting so raggedy arsed over this? I’ve already explained it to you. Is it that difficult to comprehend?
What are you saying here? without the immigrants in recent decades the US would already be an old greying nation. As earlier stated, the immigrants are providing many services that our nation wants. They often take care of the elderly for example, and also childcare. Building houses is dominated by immigrants and the sons/daughters of immigrants. Agriculture too. I don't see many 75 year olds picking grapes and strawberries. Of course there are other solutions.What I’m saying is that with immigration the country ends up with more grey.
What is the 'same problem'? Is there currently a pressing problem? In 50 years, technology may well solve a lot of the potential problems, and overall population is on course to slow and perhaps decline.The solution being offered is never ending immigration from the south to the north. Those people will grow old too. That’s the ‘same’ I’m talking about. Pretty obvious I’d have thought.
I do agree that silly consumerism is unnecessary and wasteful,
Why are you getting so raggedy arsed over this? I’ve already explained it to you. Is it that difficult to comprehend?Because I feel like giving you some crap for making up the biden-ification of the topic which I DID NOT start.
What I’m saying is that with immigration the country ends up with more grey.Well obviously everybody gets old although not all at once which is where we would have been on course for. Immigration is how the country is getting a lot of work done here.
People have become lazy and want everything done for them around the clock, that’s why there’s 24/7 shopping, dining etc, all on demand. A world of instant gratification and Walmart.
Without this constant stream of cheap labour feeding the demand things might be different.
People would have to graft for themselves.The solution being offered is never ending immigration from the south to the north. Those people will grow old too. That’s the ‘same’ I’m talking about. Pretty obvious I’d have thought.
We do NOT need immigration to survive as a country.
Nothing wrong with a declining population over time.
Probably would make our country better.
We can find people right here in our country to do the agricultural work, yard work, taking care of nursing home folks, etc.
It's all about wage rates and forcing those on welfare (who are not handicapped) to take jobs if they want a cash flow coming in.
I will do some yard work . . . or force my wife to do so . . . for a 'correct' wage !!! :-)
Speaking of yard work . . . a solution is to have required wages so high that people cannot afford to have extensive manicured properties. Then we would go to more use of 'natural' landscaping along with sand, pebbles, river rock, etc., laid over landscape fabric to replace grass. Would save a lot of water also, which is in short supply in many areas.
Well to all who believe we do not need those pesky immigrants. How about putting out an ad for heavy physical work and then ensuring you will only hire your countrymen.
Even if you place this at the unemployment agencies with help from the social workers in sending people I doubt you will get more than 10 people.
Meanwhile there will about 100 immigrants begging you to hire them at half the pay.
Yes we do need cheap labour,Need? No. Can't say anything about your country though. Maybe that's the way it is in the Netherlands.
...and people willing to do hard workAgain. Plenty of those here.
..And mot who complain about them will not rise their butt for minimal wages, as they are used to getting nearly the same plus benefits for not doing anything (legal)
I feel the same way about the UK.
If the wages are decent enough to encourage people to get off benefits and into work,we don't need low-paid immigrants .
The only people who benefit from immigration are companies/bosses who make bigger profits by employing immigrants on low wages,rather than pay a decent wage to British workers.
Less immigration means less crime.less demand on housing,less intensive farming to feed a growing population,a higher standard of living due to higher earnings and a lot less kids living in poverty and less demand for food banks...in other words it would make the UK a more pleasant place to live in...instead of the shoitehole it's rapidly becoming.
Well to all who believe we do not need those pesky immigrants. How about putting out an ad for heavy physical work and then ensuring you will only hire your countrymen.
Even if you place this at the unemployment agencies with help from the social workers in sending people I doubt you will get more than 10 people. Meanwhile there will about 100 immigrants begging you to hire them at half the pay.Yes we do need cheap labour, and people willing to do hard workAnd mot who complain about them will not rise their butt for minimal wages, as they are used to getting nearly the same plus benefits for not doing anything (legal)
However, vaccinated people should continue to ...............
Anyone heard from BC of late? He normally posts here every so often but not of recent, possibly caught covid perhaps? Been a lot of it in Italy of late.BC usually posts here when his wife is abroad. And I doubt quarantaine of COVID will keep anyone from posting, only the severe hospitalization cases would get to that.
Notice someone pointed out no sign of JayH a few weeks back. I know he doesn't always post all the time but another covid one perhaps?
Anyway good to see the rest of you are all here & accounted for and more or less doing well :)
Anyone heard from BC of late?
We're all doing great. Just got a bit bored with the RWD merry-go-round for a while. I see it hasn't slowed a bit. Plenty of outside work to do getting ready for spring. Garden, trimming trees, pool prep etc etc along with hobbies and of course a lot of good grilling. A couple of butcher shops in town really upped their game with a nice variety of dry-aged beef from all over Europe and even Iceland. I used to think the only place to get good grilling beef was in the US, but changed my mind after eating a steak from 10+ year old Spanish cow, dry-aged a couple months... simply amazing.
Anyhoo, as for the topic my vaccination appointment should be coming up soon, but tempted to wait a bit and try out Sputnik V made in Italy. So many flavors becoming available nowadays.
Well latest news in the UK is that holidays to the Europe countries may be off this Spring/Summer due to the EU's incompetence in being able to get their citizens vaccinated.
Well latest news in the UK is that holidays to the Europe countries may be off this Spring/Summer due to the EU's incompetence in being able to get their citizens vaccinated. The UK can't risk a new wave of virus being brought into the UK. Unfortunately Ukraine too has been slow off the mark with their Vaccination rollout which appears to be down in part to Ukrainians not trusting any Vaccine that much. So cases are rising there and so to the death count until the penny drops I guess.
It's possible that cases across Europe & Ukraine could be down in about a month if they buck their ideas up. In that case travelling abroad could be back on. I'm remaining skeptical on that and it would be a real pain in the arse to miss out on another year. If they can't manage to reopen air travel this year then I'm not sure if they will ever be able to properly again. Just have to wait and see on this one I guess.
Maybe this time next year or the following year we'll all be lauding the Ukrainians for being so smart..whilst the majority in the UK will have had junk injected into their bodies with the associate after-effects.
Our state now offering Covid vaccine to those age 50 and above.
So I got spouse signed up for Friday morning.
Back in January she wasn't sure if she wanted or not.
But with the wild spread of Covid in Ukraine now, she for sure wanted to get before she tries to go there this summer.
One potential problem is that she is scheduled to take final written exam for PhD the Monday after she gets second Covid vaccine 3 weeks after first, then final oral exam for PhD a week later.
If she has a bad reaction to the second shot (as many do) she will be in deep do-do with respect to the exams.
And she can't put the exams off any longer.
I hope she gets the Pfizer like I did, as it seems to cause fewer problems than the Moderna.
And I really hope she doesn't get the Johnson, as we would be worried about her going to Ukraine with its lower coverage rate.
...If she has a bad reaction to the second shot (as many do) she will be in deep do-do with respect to the exams......I hope she gets the Pfizer like I did, as it seems to cause fewer problems than the Moderna.
And I really hope she doesn't get the Johnson, as we would be worried about her going to Ukraine with its lower coverage rate.
J&J is still very effective. In fact, when Warp Speed begun a year ago, Fauci and the other government scientists considered 67% efficacy a successful target. J&J surpassed that target, and more important hospitalizations are virtually 100% eliminated.
I don't consider going into Ukraine with a 67% effective vaccine to be acceptable at all.
...The Johnson and Johnson vaccines boosts up our immunity system making it more likely to recognize COVID when it shows up and crush it before it can cause illness. The best news about J & J is that even if it doesn't stop COVID, the immune system is better prepared to defeat it eventually. Nobody who has taken a J & J vaccine and later got COVID, has died. Survival rate is perfect so far although efficacy isn't the best.
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.
USA gave AstraZeneca billions. Lack of transparency has eroded confidence in their vaccine. America is probably going to give the vaccine we bought from them to poor nations.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp)
..Yes, the US national news outlets reported far more negative than positive news vs. reports by local/regional outlets and international outlets....
Add that to the billions that have been dispersed to fraudsters from Nigeria to Russia-----
USA gave AstraZeneca billions.
The Labor Department inspector general has yet to complete a full investigation but, based on previous programs, estimates at least $63 billion of the $630 billion in disbursements has been misspent. The full scope of the loss in taxpayer funds is likely many times higher, experts and officials say, soaring well beyond $100 billion.http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-billions-pandemic-aid-was-swindled-con-artists-crime-syndicates-n1257766
A rush to release the funds put enormous strain on state workforce agencies, creating a bonanza for individual scam artists and international cybercrime rings. And the federal government was slow to act despite early red flags, according to interviews with more than two dozen fraud experts, senior law enforcement officials and state and federal officials.
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.
And again you missed the point.
Actually, the FDA hasn't granted approval for COVID vaccines to be used on humans. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents says that. The FDA did authorize emergency approval of certain COVID vaccines figuring the benefits outweigh the risks.
AstraZeneca got cocky and supplied the American government with outdated data of their product instead of new data. They assumed the FDA wouldn't make a big stink. It wasn't easy for Fauci to make a public statement pertaining to AstraZeneca's bad behavior knowing it'll erode confidence in vaccines. AstraZeneca's bad behavior may be worse than what Fauci is revealing. I would've considered taking an AstraZeneca vaccine. Due to their deception, they're now on my sh!t list.
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.
Actually, the FDA hasn't granted approval for COVID vaccines to be used on humans. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents says that. The FDA did authorize emergency approval of certain COVID vaccines figuring the benefits outweigh the risks.
AstraZeneca got cocky and supplied the American government with outdated data of their product instead of new data. They assumed the FDA wouldn't make a big stink. It wasn't easy for Fauci to make a public statement pertaining to AstraZeneca's bad behavior knowing it'll erode confidence in vaccines. AstraZeneca's bad behavior may be worse than what Fauci is revealing. I would've considered taking an AstraZeneca vaccine. Due to their deception, they're now on my sh!t list.
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.Doesn't really matter. As far as we know all the vaccines will kill us. Dead is dead :D
And again you missed the point.
There is no real problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine.
As I understand it, they merely fudged the effectiveness rate a couple of percentage points at most.
A typical result of letting marketing people be in charge with no oversight by cautious folks . . . like scientists, engineering, finance or accounting.
Ok, so their up to date data may show there a few percentage points less affective than what was initially thought and as such likely around the same as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Problem is they release new data to show it is even a little bit less effective than originally thought a lot will be made of it, a bit like the blood clot polava. So I can see why they didn't want to be too forward with it. I guess we'll see in a day or so how much there is to it all but with many millions already injected and little downside at least in the short term I'm guessing the vaccine is decent enough.
In their attempt to get emergency use approval in the States, AstraZeneca deceived. What else have they deceived on? If they were only a 'few' percentage points off effectiveness which is no big deal, Fauci should've kept his mouth shut and had a private conversation with AstraZeneca to revise their numbers. Making a public statement like he did, he had to know it'll erode confidence in vaccines but he felt he had to do it.
Me, having now taken the vaccine I'm just hoping my penis will be ok ;D
Latest news at the moment is the updated release from Astra Zenaca showing the vaccine's latest results as 76 percent effective down from the previously reported 79 percent:
http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56521166 (http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56521166)
Me, having now taken the vaccine I'm just hoping my penis will be ok ;D
There's damage control going around. In the article below, they mention AstraZeneca once reported 90% efficacy while omitting results of 55 yo and up people. That also means they are leaving out other data on how the vaccine affects 55 yo and up people. A medical expert at Yale says other vaccine makers are doing the same thing with press releases. Bottom line is vaccine makers are leaving out bad news to make their product look more effective. What can anybody do? They are immune from being sued.
Over time we will begin to understand real world results and efficacy will be lower than advertised. Also, this latest news tells me vaccines are less effective on older people, the people who need the vaccine the most.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp
They are considering sending sperm to the moon for doomsday storage. Even if your dream of having Trench Jr ends now, you may be able to repopulate the earth with your seeds if you donate your sperm.
http://www.disclose.tv/t/sperm-seeds-proposed-to-be-send-to-noah-s-ark-style-complex-on-the-moon/26107
A few groups are achieving herd immunity. The Amish and Mennonite communities who live and party like it's 1699 shun masks and vaccines yet now it's less likely for a person to catch COVID living among them than living in a society led by experts in medicine, virology and pandemics.
http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow (http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
For the very vast majority - is this really a difficult decision? [/size][/font]I don't like that I will almost be forced to take the vaccine. To travel, there is talk of a stupid vaccine pass, but without one travelers will be subject to being tested and confined. I think if it can be shown that somewhere along the way, I've had the virus, and have my own antibodies, I should be free to travel without additional testing detours. Wife and son are definitely in that boat.
First Canada and now Germany. Germany now bars the vaccine to anybody under 60. If you're old and have a high chance of dying from COVID, take a vaccine. If you're younger and have almost no chance of dying from COVID, do not take any of the experimental vaccines that have come out. It would take years to deem a vaccine safe enough for human use and by then the virus would have mutated so much, today's vaccines would be useless.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/germany-to-recommend-astra-vaccine-use-only-for-people-over-60
I agree, but at what age to take the vaccine? I'm early to mid forties and wouldn't like to chance not taking it as I fear it could wreak my internal organs one by one.
Is social distancing hard in Alaska?
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/31/sarah-palin-coronavirus-positive-wear-masks
Our clinic invited us to schedule our vaccination. I'll ignore it. For now....maybe forever.
It’s mainly Pfizer or moderna. Not sure if you have freedom of choice which cocktail you’ll get. Although our clinic had notified us they’re scheduled to receive shipments of the Pfizer vaccine.
I’m actually surprised LA County had been pretty diligent in their handling of this. They’re really mindful executing their population control program. :P didn’t realize there’s this many Republicans in LA.
http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm
The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting or spreading the virus.
I don't understand this statement.
Source: NY Times
Which part did you not understand, ML?
You posted: The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting . . . the virus.
My question: Then what are the vaccines supposed to do ?
The vaccines are only supposed to limit the severity of COVID-19's virulence (functional immunity), which led to severe conditions, even fatal. It doesn't prevent you from catching, and/or transmitting, the virus (sterilizing immunity - inconclusive).
4) Development of vaccines to control the early viruses allowed more dangerous viruses to come in and attack our bodies.
What say ye ??
Wife relayed to me an interesting item she read on Ukrainian discussion board.Reason why I have always had the policy of taking as little medicine as possible. It help the drugs work when needed, as our body gets used to about anything that is brought in to the system regularly.
An older MD presented her idea which may, of course, not be new.
1) For perhaps forever earlier . . . bacteria that attacked our bodies actually kept viruses away.
2) The development and usage of drugs to kill bacteria allowed viruses to come in and attack our bodies.
3) These early viruses kept out other more dangerous viruses.
4) Development of vaccines to control the early viruses allowed more dangerous viruses to come in and attack our bodies.
What say ye ??
A recent report that apparently some people develop mental illness as a result of having Covid:Considering the behaviour of those most likely to get the virus currently (anti-mask, protected by God) I think the correlation is not with medical reason.
"COVID-19 linked to increased risk of psychiatric and neurological conditions
Findings from a new study suggest contracting coronavirus is "robustly associated" with an increased risk of developing mental health and neurological conditions in the six months after a diagnosis.
University of Oxford researchers looked at the TriNetX electronic 2020 health records of more than 230,000 COVID-19 patients who were mostly from the US.
Published in The Lancet Psychiatry journal, the study estimated that one in three COVID-19 survivors (34%) were diagnosed with a neurological or psychiatric condition within six months of being infected.
And 13% were given their first neurological or psychiatric diagnosis, researchers found.
The findings also suggested that the incidence of such conditions rose with the severity of a COVID case.
It found that a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis occurring in 39% of those who were admitted to hospital, 46% of those in intensive care, and 62% in those who had encephalopathy - described as "delirium and other altered mental states" - when they had COVID."
Sky News.
The only thing that may upset that are mutant varients and countries slow to vaccinate like the EU.
European Medicines Agencies find possible connection with blod clots that can lead to death from the AstraZeneca vaccine but benefits outweigh the risks. AstraZeneca takes their name off the vaccine and calls it something else. Bad publicity can make a company do that. Now that we have choices, they won't ask if you prefer AstraZeneca. They will ask if you prefer Vaxzevria.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood (http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood)
Now that we have choices, they won't ask if you prefer AstraZeneca. They will ask if you prefer Vaxzevria.
79 cases of blood clotting and 19 deaths after taking the vaccine in the UK. You feeling okay Trench?
So far, Lol :-\
I guess not being female may help me, apparently.
It's been killing females 2 to 1 over males. It'll be harder to find a wife when this is over.
Great news everybody! The details are being talked about by Biden and Democratic governors. From the party that brought us the slogan "My Body, My Choice", they want to create papers that will allow us all kinds of benefits. It'll be called Vaccination passport. With these papers we will be able to cross state lines, fly on airplanes, go to concerts and movie theaters and more! All we have to do is show the papers to the authorities and we will be able to enjoy more freedoms over those who do not comply with the steps necessary to obtain those papers.
On paper, but if it's doing in fat chicks it will make no difference in reality ;D
Trench, please don't bring the wrath of Femem down on the board. :cluebat:
Femen (Ukrainian: Фемен), stylized as FEMEN, is a radical feminist activist group whose goal is to protect women's rights. The organization became internationally known for organizing controversial topless protests against sex tourism, religious institutions, sexism, homophobia, and other social, national, and international topics.
They would be a welcomed addition to the board :P
Trench, please don't bring the wrath of Femem down on the board. :cluebat:
A recent study has found that the South African variant can get through the Pfizer vaccine:
"Coronavirus latest news: South Africa variant can 'break through' Pfizer's vaccine" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-vaccine-astrazeneca-lockdown-travel-rules/amp/
Higher ratio of people develop blood clot from flying than the ratio for people taking Astra Zeneca vaccine.
The review pooled results of nine trials comparing people who wore below-knee compression stockings with those who didn’t on flights lasting at least four hours. One in 1,000 healthy people wearing compression stockings developed a symptomless clot compared with 10 per 1,000 who didn’t wear them. In people with additional risk factors, stockings reduced risk from 30 cases per 1,000 down to 3 per 1,000.
http://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/long-haul-flyers-could-reduce-risk-of-leg-blood-clots-with-compression-stockings/#:~:text=In%20the%20nine%20pooled%20trials,who%20didn't%20wear%20stockings (http://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/long-haul-flyers-could-reduce-risk-of-leg-blood-clots-with-compression-stockings/#:~:text=In%20the%20nine%20pooled%20trials,who%20didn't%20wear%20stockings).
Billy, are you still sure on going for the Johnson & Johnson jab?
"COVID-19: EU regulator reviewing possible links between Johnson & Johnson jab and blood clots | World News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-regulator-reviewing-possible-links-between-johnson-johnson-jab-and-blood-clots-12270444 (http://news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-regulator-reviewing-possible-links-between-johnson-johnson-jab-and-blood-clots-12270444)
So which of the above is the truth ???
Or is one just an update at a later time ?
In South Africa, where the B.1.351 lineage [ed. South African variant] is prevalent and 800 participants were enrolled, nine cases of COVID-19 were observed, all in the placebo group, indicating vaccine efficacy of 100% (95% CI, [53.5, 100.0]). In an exploratory analysis, the nine strains were sequenced and six of the nine were confirmed to be of the B.1.351 lineage. These data support previous results from immunogenicity studies demonstrating that BNT162b2 induced a robust neutralizing antibody response to the B1.351 variant, and although lower than to the wild-type strain, it does not appear to affect the high observed efficacy against this variant.
Results from the study showed that there were no reported cases of B.1.351 in fully vaccinated individuals who had received their second dose more then 14-days prior.
Slovakia questions the quality of the Russian vaccine sent to them. Instead of proving the vaccine is up to standards, Russia tells them to send the 200,000 doses back.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-demanded-200-000-sputnik-120744748.html
Saturday and today my wife will be giving hundreds of injections of Pfizer vaccine to people at the hospital where she's having her clinicals.
What's your wife's view on the vaccines Billy?
We live in a very liberal area and the medical field she's in promotes vaccines so she doesn't hear all the bad things. Actually, I've told you more about the problems with vaccines in the world than I've told her.
When you compile a list of problems with vaccines, do you compare it with a list of potential problems from COVID and its variants?
"COVID-19: Lockdown is main reason for drop in coronavirus cases and deaths - not vaccinations, says Boris Johnson | Politics News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266 (http://news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266)
So why they don't carry the lockdown on for a bit longer to better control the spread of the virus I don't know. That or moving to a more isolated economy of click & collect and delivery only, working from home etc, makes sense to me.
Latest report on the J&J vaccine. Seems to be running into much the same issues as the AZ vaccine:
"US health agencies call for pause of Johnson & Johnson vaccine rollout" http://amp.ft.com/content/d1070ff2-a473-4f6a-a484-681fb8de4251 (http://amp.ft.com/content/d1070ff2-a473-4f6a-a484-681fb8de4251)
7 million doses of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine have been given in USA.
6 blood clot cases discovered.
This is ridiculous the furor over it.
When nations start banning a vaccine like AstraZeneca, they need to provide a reason. They give us the minimum amount of information so they don't ruin public confidence in vaccines. Whatever they are telling us about AstraZeneca, you can count on it being worse. Like AstraZeneca, J & J is a viral vector vaccine. So far it's side effects is following AstraZeneca's footsteps. Precaution needs to be taken. Our most vulnerable, the elderly have already been vaccinated. Why force an experimental vaccine on people who have almost no chance of dying from Covid?
UCLA Health: XXXX, to protect your family, friends, and community, make your COVID-19 vaccine appointment here today: uclahealth.org/schedule
One theory for vaccinating everybody is that we will slow the spread and reduce the chances of the virus mutating. A few experts I mentioned previously said this has never been a strategy in previous epidemics and pandemics. Like you said GQ, even those vaccinated can get infected and pass it around. The only benefit of a vaccine is it gives us a better chance in beating COVID. But most young people have strong immune systems that will beat it anyway.
...But we’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. ...
Still no mask, vaccine, not even social distancing much anymore...and not dead yet. Maybe my number will come up. Don't want the vaccine at this time, I'll give my stupid strong genes a pep talk about not being crapped on.
Fathertime!
A month after Covid vaccine, and all seems to be OK for wife and me.
A month after Covid vaccine, and all seems to be OK for wife and me.
I see you lost your mustache and the hair transplanted to your nipples. You okay with that?
My 22-yo Russian stepson received his first Moderna jab. He works part-time, and his employer will pay him over $150 after the second jab.
Mama still refuses to be vaccinated out of health fears.
Mama's right, don't take the vaccine
Depends on which one. The Pfizer vaccine is very safe. I had the Astrazeneca vaccine, as it is the only one available to me currently, with no ill effects.
There is a CBC program called Quirks and Quarks which examines all sorts of scientific issues. They interviewed a scientist from the University of Texas whose research was instrumental in cutting down the time for development of the mRNA vaccines. That scientist, Jason McLellan, told Quirks and Quarks that his own research had been moved ahead significantly when a Chinese team released an academic paper. This research is why the vaccine developed so quickly.
The whole interview is worth a listen, but here's a snippet -
http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh (http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh)
Although vaccines are rolling out in full speed and the weather is warmer, Current daily infections worldwide has doubled compared to February and daily deaths increased too.
http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
Man! The US covid-19 mortality rate went up to an unnerving, jaw-dropping, alarming two-tenths of 1 percent today. Gawd almighty help us!
I think there is a lot more to be concerned about than just death from covid.
I have seen some of the interviews with people who had it and survived.
They told of almost unbearable pain and discomfort from its affects.
Like a 300 pound person sitting on your chest for days, weeks and months.
I certainly would not have wanted to go through it, and may decided to end my life just to stop it.
And then there are the long-haulers who never get over it.
I think there is a lot more to be concerned about than just death from covid.
I have seen some of the interviews with people who had it and survived.
They told of almost unbearable pain and discomfort from its affects.
Like a 300 pound person sitting on your chest for days, weeks and months.
I certainly would not have wanted to go through it, and may decided to end my life just to stop it.
And then there are the long-haulers who never get over it.
My poor old pops (Closing in on 101 years old) chastises me for not getting the shot. "Do you want to be one of the dead". I continue to have no interest. I'll fight the fight if I have to, win/lose/draw. At least 1 daughter, wife, and son have already had it. I'd be surprised if I didn't pick it up at some point, and not have too bad of symptoms. Given my relatively low level of risk, I'll take my chances with my own immune system. There could be a point in the future where the virus mutates in a more deadly way, in which case if a vaccine is shown to help in that case, I may change my mind.
But interestingly however, if you took the subset of this from the whole (50 plus age range - mortality v population), it isn't that much different, rate-wise. It would 'only' be at the 4 tenths of 1% range.
My poor old pops (Closing in on 101 years old) chastises me for not getting the shot. "Do you want to be one of the dead". I continue to have no interest. I'll fight the fight if I have to, win/lose/draw. At least 1 daughter, wife, and son have already had it. I'd be surprised if I didn't pick it up at some point, and not have too bad of symptoms. Given my relatively low level of risk, I'll take my chances with my own immune system. There could be a point in the future where the virus mutates in a more deadly way, in which case if a vaccine is shown to help in that case, I may change my mind.
Fathertime!
While not as deadly as COVID-19, it is nonetheless reportedly an excruciatingly painful experience older folks go through if one is not vaccinated for it. Shingles (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postherpetic-neuralgia/symptoms-causes/syc-20376588#:~:text=Postherpetic%20neuralgia%20occurs%20if%20your,last%20months%20%E2%80%94%20or%20even%20years) affect 1 in 3 older (50+) folks.
So how many is aware, or even know, what shingles is and what it can actually do to you if you're not vaccinated? Way less than half (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db370.htm#:~:text=Data%20from%20the%20National%20Health,ever%20received%20a%20shingles%20vaccine).
Both my in-laws are also urging me to get vaccinated. FIL is more adamant about this than MIL. Then again, fatherly advice also warned me against getting an electric car, too. His biggest reason against that is - 'look what happened in Texas!'
Of course, the chances of that ever happening again is not very good, so therein lies the whole 'numbers' (odds) application again.
But FWIW, wifey got her vaccination appointment this Friday.
Try to dissuade her
What I did told my wife was - I've no right to tell her what she needs to do regarding whether or not she should get vaccinated.
Wifey and I sat down and actually discussed this at length. I'm on the fence, and she was too at one time. What I did told my wife was - I've no right to tell her what she needs to do regarding whether or not she should get vaccinated. I am not even sure if I should or not myself. I'm neither a scientist or a doctor, and trust in our government had gone out the window for me. Especially this past 12+ years. Intense distrust the past 4.5!
I wish I had the answer, FP. But I do not.
People were more enthusiastic about vaccines when I was a kid.
I don't understand the fear of the mRNA vaccines. The injected material is assimilated (undetectable) after 48 hours, More important,. it does not attach to DNA.
I don't understand the fear of the mRNA vaccines.
get them relax a bit as apparently anxiety strikes everyone after the jab (15 minutes).
We will think about going to restaurant for first time since . . . forever.
Never heard any talk about the anxiety thing here in my area.
Neither wife nor I had any anxiety before or after.
Wife now past the two week mark after second shot.
We will think about going to restaurant for first time since . . . forever.
Gawd, your state was indeed shut down. The restaurants in FL stayed open, yet restricted. Wife was anxious, yet went along, even in the days when she washed and sprayed the groceries before bringing them into the house
You said..We will think about.., you mean you're still in the deliberation state even after both of you had your vaccinations? :P
Unsure why this is a newsflash, if true. Good ol’ Bill is a liberal.
Even in America, we had to throw out millions of vaccines due to manufacture error.
Hardly 'sweat shop' BillyB. The EMA and FDA regularly inspect facilities in all countries that export pharmaceuticals to the US and EU.
"Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable — at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever.
Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.
How much smaller is uncertain and depends in part on how much of the nation, and the world, becomes vaccinated and how the coronavirus evolves. It is already clear, however, that the virus is changing too quickly, new variants are spreading too easily and vaccination is proceeding too slowly for herd immunity to be within reach anytime soon.
Continued immunizations, especially for people at highest risk because of age, exposure or health status, will be crucial to limiting the severity of outbreaks, if not their frequency, experts believe."
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html)
The country with the most fully vaccinated people at over 62% has seen a surge in cases. A third of the cases are from people who are fully vaccinated. Seems like it's going to be harder to achieve herd immunity.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56992121
http://www.bloombergquint.com/politics/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge
My guess is Billy that being so close to India the variant there has jumped over and is getting past the vaccine somewhat that was designed for the original virus. Apparently it still helps out in reducing the severity of it etc but we'll have to wait and see how it goes there. The booster her is out in the autumn so we'll have to see the effect that has also.Eh, you must have flunked your Geography GCSE’s.
Here in the UK they are about to announce the green light list of countries that can be travelled to & from with reduced checks etc, it's apparently not going to be that long a list. Officially the virus figures for infections are going down quite steeply in Ukraine so will have to wait and see if or when they make the green light list. Travel can begin from the 17th May I assume for holidays etc but will have to wait for the details. I won't be rushing out there as prefer others to test the system first rather than fall victim to the system. There's an off chance it will get easier to travel thereafter depending on how things go here & abroad with the virus.
I've just done a new Fdate profile just to test the water and to chat to a few FSW. Not going into it real full on at the moment as it will like he at least a month till I fly etc just fancied getting back into it again.
I continue to find it astounding as we're approaching 1/2 billion (?) vaccinations world wide that folks continue to soak this covid stuff up. We have people who work to de-populate the world offering vaccines to save the world from a near harmless virus that they created. A virus that our bodies immune system will defend from it anyway that is, until the vaccine that attacks and changes that same immune system. The kool-aid abounds. Think people, THINKWell, quite a few people have died from it, and from what I've gathered a concern is that the longer the virus is out there in mass, the more likely it is to mutate into some form that is significantly more deadly. I really don't think there is a grand plan to use the vaccine to depopulate the planet.
Well, quite a few people have died from it, and from what I've gathered a concern is that the longer the virus is out there in mass, the more likely it is to mutate into some form that is significantly more deadly. I really don't think there is a grand plan to use the vaccine to depopulate the planet.
Fathertime!
Enjoy your kool-aid
"Though for the policy to be successful it needs to, at a minimum, be able to oversee the creation of novel strains that may be highly transmissible and highly virulent and should probably focus on that most intently to start."
A potentially serious weakness of the new framework is that surveillance activities involving potential pandemic pathogens (PPPs), including sampling and sequencing, aren't considered to be enhanced PPPs and would be exempt from reviews, Inglesby said, adding that surveillance as a rationale doesn't change potential risks of novel PPP strains. "There are serious debates about whether specific enhanced PPP projects are materially useful to on-the-ground surveillance programs," he said.
Inglesby's other concerns revolve around the lack of hard details of how the experiment reviews will work, such as the process for weighing the risks and benefits and the criteria for judging if researchers and institutions have the capacity to do the work safely. "I would have liked to see if this framework was working as intended before the moratorium was ended," he said, suggesting that agencies funding the work publish their experiences using the new framework to show how it functions.
Enjoy your kool-aidI shall enjoy.
Giving credit where credit is due, obama in fact banned virus research that involved gain of function. So Fauci was principal in renaming the foundation to something else, and the funds continued.
Obama can ban gain of function but hands money to China trusting them. Obama can ban nukes but hands money to Iran trusting them.
Again, funding for G-O-F research was banned in 2014 under the Obama Administration. It was lifted December 2017 under the Trump administration. Like Russiagate, and the rest of the anti-Trump basuras politicians, media and its kool-aiders tried to paint Trump with, implying Obama funded the G-O-F research AFTER he banned it, is BS.
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/MC_BurnBabyBurn_web20210514120000.jpg)In protest, first you burned your bra in the 60's now you are burning your mask in 2021.
In protest, first you burned your bra in the 60's now you are burning your mask in 2021.
Fathertime!
I hope the mask burners nose doesn't sag as bad as the bra burner tits. :shock:
What I'm seeing that I don't like is if you don't get vaccinated you are forced to wear a mask. I just read that in Las Vegas that appears to be the policy going forward.So in order to tell...vaccinated people must have stated acknowledgement tattooed on their foreheads? (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Bra was not invented until 1889. So what did those who were turned off by sagging breasts do back then?
When Trump found out what our government organizations and China were doing, he cut the funding and he cut funding to WHO.
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru (http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru)
http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html (http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html)
Between Trump and Obama, who is capable of giving money to our advisaries in ways that people won't get suspicious?Was Trump running the DOJ and FBI that hindered his administration and put his people in jail or was it somebody else?Is the person running the DOJ and FBI potentially running other government organizations? Yes. There are conspiracies that say this pandemic was ordered by our people to affect the 2020 election.Patrick Byrne has a BA from Dartmouth, Masters from Cambridge as a Marshal Scholar and a PhD from Stanford. He was national entrepreneur of the year and ex CEO of Overstock. He help bring down hundreds at Wall Street and slept with spies. As a citizen, he help the FBI thinking he was doing good for our country. At the FBI and Obama's request, he tempted Hillary with a bribe and she took it. He became jaded with our government when he found out they weren't going to arrest her but make her president. Obama dictated who was going to be president and he wanted someone compromised so he could control. Obama's people in the DOJ would make sure Hillary followed orders. Although Hillary didn't become President, do you think Obama gave up control?There was a coup in our country. They created the greatest fraud organization in history and planned to use it in future elections. These are sinister people. They want to dismantle the Constitution. They are taking away free speech, guns, and even our votes. Give it a couple of months if you need more time to register all what has happened. Obama deserves praise for nothing. He's evil. You've bought into the fake news idea that Obama done some good.
Rand Paul's exchange with Anthony Fauci is not whether or not the US funds, or give grants to, medical researches the world over on a yearly basis via DHH or NIH, or whatever else governing bodies need the funds for..
The exchange with Fauci is more specifically about, including what was SPECIFICALLY banned during the Obama Administration, was *GAIN OF FUNCTION* experiments. The then administration pause funding for this specific phase while they conducted a deliberative process to better determine of its viability and benefit - risk vs reward.
GOF was never banned during the Obama administration. In 2014, it was suspended for 3 years and was to automatically resume in 2017. There was no need to get Trump's blessing for these experiments in 2017 because they would automatically get implemented. Although suspended in 2014, a few months later with government approval GOF resumed on 7 of the 18 GOF projects anyway. So much for the suspension/ban. We may have helped China create the virus in our bodies. Rand Paul is trying to figure it out without making direct accusations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research)
At the onset of this pandemic last year, and during it's insurgency, I remember doctors were reporting severe cases, and at times fatal, of people stricken with this virus. Most, if not all folks died not because of the virus itself per se, but because of how our immune system reacted in its fight against the infection.
The proverbial knowledge today about the benefit of the vaccines is, while it doesn't prevent you from getting infected by the virus, and even spreading it, but that it keeps you from suffering severely (and definitely no longer fatal) as it did before.
Does this mean then the vaccine suppresses your immune system to react to the virus so there is no danger of it over-reacting and damaging your cells much more than it would've?
Also, how did they determined this when we don't even know exactly how many were asymptomatic? Did they vaccinated x amount of persons that tested negative of the virus, then after administering the program, exposed them to COVID-19 and waited for the resulting effect? If so, how did they eliminated the possibility that those persons could have been people that would've otherwise been in the potential 'asymptomatic' group anyway since they seem to be the overwhelming majority?
Don't mind me, I'm just projecting my thoughts trying to make logic in my still pending decision to whether or not I march with the increasing herd.
Don't mind me, I'm just projecting my thoughts trying to make logic in my still pending decision to whether or not I march with the increasing herd.
Pompeo, a has been, with zero credibility nationally, or internationally.
Pompeo calls on China to release evidence disproving Wuhan lab leak theory
Pompeo says Wuhan lab leak 'covered up just like Chernobyl'
http://www.foxnews.com/media/pompeo-china-evidence-wuhan-lab-leak-covid
Pompeo calls on China to release evidence disproving Wuhan lab leak theory
Pompeo, a has been, with zero credibility nationally, or internationally.
OY!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxr6mLG8uzA
Thanks for that fairly comprehensive response, Gator.
3. And the BIG STORY - uncovering another example of mainstream news media failing to do its job because of bias against the right.
Fact checking site removes their report that said virus leaked from Wuhan lab is a debunked conspiracy. Polls, fact checking sites and mainstream media hasn't had our best interest in years. They promote fake news. The more we learn about the virus and it's origins, the better prepared we could be but they don't care about truth. The people of the world keeps getting lied to.
BillyB,
your ability to predict the future weeks and months in advance has failed you over and over. Why should anyone give this one, 100 years out any weight at all. It is much more probable that in 20 years vaccines of similar types will be given to fight and prevent cancer and more.
All phases of trials were completed prior to allowing commercial manufacture, distribution and use.
Where did you get your information from? I put out vaccine manufacture and FDA documents. There are tests that are ongoing and aren't concluded. There are safety tests that take years to conclude when making new vaccines and medicines. Have years passed by? By the time this vaccine has been fully tested, there won't be a need for it because they will be giving you and your family another newly designed experimental vaccine for the variants. It'll be a cycle without an end.
It is government approved here BillyB
Also, no government approved the vaccine for use on humans. They gave emergency use authorization. I understand people 80 yo and up have a much higher chance of dying from COVID so they need an emergency vaccine. Kids and young adults are not in danger and there is no emergency for them. Prior to COVID, it would be a crime to give healthy people experimental vaccines. Now it's legalized.
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations. An emergency authorization is not in fact an authorization for the marketing of the product.
A conditional authorization, on the other hand, represents in all respects a formal authorization: in the case of vaccines against COVID-19, it concerns the batches produced for the EU and is the most appropriate tool to guarantee access to a vaccine for all European citizens simultaneously and support mass vaccination campaigns.
With treatments using existing medicines proven safe available, there isn't a need for vaccines on healthy people who have almost no chance in dying from COVID.
I understand many people feel that if everybody takes the vaccine, we can slow the spread and slow the mutations of the virus. Listen to what the French Nobel Peace Prize virologist said. With everybody taking a vaccine, the current virus will learn to beat it by mutating. Vaccines don't kill viruses instantly. They only elevate our immune system. So the virus can infect a vaccinated person and like the Frenchman said, the virus can learn to beat it by mutating.
Most people has an immune system that can beat the virus and then creating some level of immunity for the future. Our immune systems do what the vaccine does but naturally. In past epidemics and pandemics, the best scientific minds did not conclude everybody in the world needed to be vaccinated. We are trying something new with new experimental vaccines. Alarming because it could be disastrous for humanity if they're wrong. Maybe there is only a 5% chance they are wrong but if they are wrong, it will lead to massive depopulation. It's a gamble and we are gambling with lives.
http://www.epicentro.iss.it/vaccini/covid-19-sviluppo-valutazione-approvazione (http://www.epicentro.iss.it/vaccini/covid-19-sviluppo-valutazione-approvazione)
Your government gave it 'conditional' marketing authorization. It's not fully approved. Read you link. I translated it. The first sentence in the link said vaccine development takes 7-10 years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that current COVID vaccines have not been through all the safety tests because 7-10 years have not passed.
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations. An emergency authorization is not in fact an authorization for the marketing of the product.
A conditional authorization, on the other hand, represents in all respects a formal authorization: in the case of vaccines against COVID-19, it concerns the batches produced for the EU and is the most appropriate tool to guarantee access to a vaccine for all European citizens simultaneously and support mass vaccination campaigns.
Safety of vaccines aren't the main concerns of the 3 experts I talked about upthread. They talk about substituting our healthy immune systems for vaccines will weaken our natural defenses...permanently which can lead to mass deaths. Think using steroids for years instead of allowing your body to produce hormones naturally and later your body fails to produce male hormones so you grow tits. Also vaccinating healthy people will allow the virus to learn how to beat vaccines and become more powerful.
It is defined unequivocally BillyB. For the third and last time:
A conditional authorization represents in all respects a formal authorization
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations.
BillyB,
Governments have granted immunity to pharma for vaccines in general, not just for COVID 19 vaccines.
Good piece GQ!
Three stories:
1. Evidence is mounting that the pandemic resulted from China's negligence in operating its Wuhan Lab.
2. Dr. Fauci and the scientific community did not disclose conflicts of interest, and worse, may have covered up evidence.
3. And the BIG STORY - uncovering another example of mainstream news media failing to do its job because of bias against the right.
When Nicholson Baker wrote a cover story for New York laying out the evidence that COVID-19 may have originated in a lab (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html) in Wuhan, China, the hypothesis was still highly controversial. In the months that have followed, and especially over the last week, it’s gained more and more credibility. A week ago, 18 prominent scientists signed a letter (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html) published in Science calling for an open investigation into the virus’s origins. This weekend, the Wall Street Journal reported (http://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228) that U.S. intelligence believes three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology became sick enough in November 2019 to require hospitalization, lending even more credence to the possibility of a lab leak (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html).http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/lab-leak-liberal-media-theory-china-wuhan-lab-cotton-trump.html
The hypothesis is far from proven. But this account of the virus’s origins is highly plausible, and at least as well-grounded as the original story of an infection that naturally leapt from a bat to a person.
The media is back peddling on the lab issue. At one time in the past [we may remember] it was considered a conspiracy theory---_______________________________________________________________________
The media is back peddling on the lab issue. At one time in the past [we may remember] it was considered a conspiracy theory---
BillyB,...It's not just China blaming 'the west' ..YOU blamed the Chinese ... suggesting it had 'escaped from a biolab'..Seeing any common denominator ? ...As it stands now...Perhaps they are both right---
Then I mentioned and speculated about the Asiatic regions' love for their wet markets aka snake alleys, where there's a section of the markets where caged live animals of all types are offered and prepared as fresh meat, and I wasn't too far off apparently...Actually it was. We learned that the Wuhan market was closed but then re-opened 3 days later... (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)... No such markets were ever closed in other large cities. What does that tell us?
What does that tell us?
Actually it was. We learned that the Wuhan market was closed but then re-opened 3 days later... (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)... No such markets were ever closed in other large cities. What does that tell us?
Instead, the live animal market may have been the site of a superspreader event, where one person spread the virus to many other people, one US-based expert told Live Science...
The Communist leadership over there said to knock it off [blaming them for the virus] or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/)
Most of these videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger.Oh! The World Health Organization? Never did anything for me. But the WHO are 'people in the know'? Just ask Anthony Fauci.
China’s Investment’s in Mexico and Central America: Panama has received $3.16 billion (http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=98644350-8be6-4278-a530-071bec7de3b3)in investments from China since 2005, the largest investment in the region, with additional investments following Panama’s establishment of official ties with the PRC in 2017.http://gop-foreignaffairs.house.gov/mexico-and-central-america/
Since 2005 China has invested $3 billion (http://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/)in Mexico
- $2.52 billion of this total investment has gone to the country’s transport sector with much of it focused on development related to the Panama Canal (http://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/07/the-panama-canal-could-become-the-center-of-the-u-s-china-trade-war/).
Other Central American countries have also received investments (http://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/) from China including $700 million in Guatemala’s technology sector and $810 million in Costa Rica’s transport, entertainment and technology sectors.
- $2.26 billion of this investment was in Mexico’s energy sector with the rest divided among the logistics, metals and transports sectors.
As it stands now...Perhaps they are both right---
It apparently escaped from a Wuhan lab that is funded by the USA and Fauci was lying every step of the way.
What are we [the USA] doing funding a Chinese biology laboratory?
I do believe the media is the principal culprit into this whole fiasco,
Virus infection rate at around 4000 reported today for yesterday. That's an increase of a thousand over the previous day's reported figure of around 3000 or so infections. That's a big increase over the course of a day, if this keeps up I don't see myself flying anywhere anytime soon. Looks like the Indian variant is likely behind the increase in infection rate.
That makes for grim reading Billy. Well virus infection figures down to 3200 Ish today for the previous day so a bit of an improvement. Kind of feared it would be more like up another thousand so gives some hope yet that we may keep this variant in check. They reckon the current vaccine is effective against the Indian variant other later possible variants who knows. If the figures stay down enough maybe, it takes a few weeks for the vaccines to start getting effective so those most recently jabbed for the first time won't have much protection that and some will get it anyway just not as bad as they would have but still show up in the figures. Today's figures going down and not up more give some hope back to the possibility of getting out to the FSU this year.
Countries like India & Brazil I'm guessing remain the big concern as with the present set up it takes way too long if repeat vaccination of such a large population is needed and hence it allows for possible further variants.
You never actually listen to anything. You're like a dude with 2 mouths and no ears. At some point, I don't know when but at some point you'll realize that they are lying to you. None of the figures of covid from the beginning have been true or accurate, what makes you think they are now? All viruses mutate and have variants and none of them worse to humans than the original. They're lying to you Trench but I do understand why you fall for it much like you do with your own fantasies about women
You never actually listen to anything. You're like a dude with 2 mouths and no ears. At some point, I don't know when but at some point you'll realize that they are lying to you. None of the figures of covid from the beginning have been true or accurate, what makes you think they are now? All viruses mutate and have variants and none of them worse to humans than the original. They're lying to you Trench but I do understand why you fall for it much like you do with your own fantasies about women
As some of you know by now, all of Fauci emails are out. Here they are
http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/ (http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/)
He's in deep doo doo. The pre release of his book has been pulled. He's been warned of the virus being engineered in a lab early last year.
http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/ (http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/)
Tucker shows Fauci lied over and over again even on gain of function. http://vimeo (http://vimeo)(dot)com/558339268
This liberal stooge, Fauci, should be held fully accountable not only being complicit via illegally funding for gain of function experiments with US taxpayers money, even after personally weighing in the risk of an accidental release of the more lethal and highly virulent coronavirus that got out of Wuhan. Covering it up, then completely misleading the world trying to hide behind his mess.
Never mind this Fauci dude you US guys seem to love banging on about most of the rest of the world don't know and have no care for who he is.
It's important we get to the bottom of Fauci's activities. It's possible he helped create this pandemic. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's possible Fauci had sincere intentions of finding more powerful medicines but it's also possible that the escape wasn't an accident and the virus was used as a bioweapon.
It is a prank.
A lot of people lost confidence in Fauci.Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show
Dr. Anthony Fauci was warned that the coronavirus had possibly been “engineered” and appeared to be taking reports about it seriously — at the same time he was publicly downplaying the notion of the virus being created in a lab, according to his emails.Meanwhile, Fauci, America’s top expert in infectious diseases, also got a “personal thank you” for backing the “natural origin” theory from the head of a nonprofit that used a $3.4 million government grant to fund research at the Chinese lab suspected of creating the virus, the emails show.On Jan. 31, 2020 — more than two months before the World Health Organization characterized COVID-19 as a pandemic — Fauci sent an email to US virus researcher Kristian Andersen and Sir Jeremy Farrar, who runs a global health charity in Britain.Fauci forwarded them a copy of a Science magazine article titled, “Mining coronavirus genomes for clues to the outbreak’s origins.”“This just came out today. You may have seen it. If not, it is of interest to the current discussion,” wrote Fauci, the longtime head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/ (http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/)
Billy,
I got the shot. Nothing stuck. My mother got the shot, nothing stuck. Just about any light object will stick to our sweaty/oily skin if a little pressure is used.
Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/ (http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/)
MRNA? dDd you try to put something there right after the shot? From the demonstrations I've seen on the internet, the magnetism works only right after one gets the shot.
There are plenty of emails on this. Here's an April, 2020 email where Fauci was told American money went to Wuhan for bat sampling work. While the media was ridiculing Trump and Pompeo last year for claiming the virus came from a lab and they don't listen to scientists, Fauci stayed silent. He needs to be fired. Any scientist that said the virus was natural and no way could have been made in a lab is an idiot or purposely engaged in propaganda.
http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640 (http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640)
Researchers in China say they have uncovered a new batch of coronaviruses in bats that resembles the COVID-19 virus that has swept the globe.
The researchers said they collected samples from small bats that lived in forests in the Yunnan province between May 2019 and November 2020. The samples consisted of urine, feces and mouth swabs.
"In total, we assembled 24 novel coronavirus genomes from different bat species, including four SARS-CoV-2 like coronaviruses," the researchers wrote in the journal Cell.
The researchers said one strain, garnered from the Rhinolophus pusillus bat species, bears a particularly strong resemblance to SARS-CoV-2, though with differences on the spike protein that the viruses use to attach to cells they infect.
There is nothing 'nasty' or 'smoking gun' here and the information was and still is public.
We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.
http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats (http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats)
GQ,
As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted. We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.
If one puts aside the blame game for the 'source' of this strain for just a moment, and reflects about what would have happened if a research such as this had not been performed prior, along with precursor vaccines developing from this very same research, the death and toll from economic damage could have been far worse.
Would we ever know if this was in fact a Wuhan lab leaked? I wouldn't bet on it. Not because I don't believe it is but because all the 'investigation', especially with this current administration, as I stated upthread, carries no merit nor carry with it the need or urgency to confirm the genesis of this pandemic. They are leaving it up to WHO to send their delegates there to 'find out'.
I can't believe you actually said that.
If no one created Frankenstein, why the need to find a defense against him?
We just gave money to a lab in China capable of making biological weapons and their was no oversight. China can't be trusted to do things without oversight. Maybe Fauci can explain how he made sure China wasn't abusing our money to develop a military weapon for themselves? He can't explain what happened because there was no oversight. We didn't have our scientists over there watching them create a new Frankenstein virus. China wouldn't even let us over there to evaluate the behavior of the virus spreading among its people. WHO simply repeated the lie the virus wasn't human to human transferable, nothing to fear. Although Democrats are on the intelligence committee and has access to intelligence, they were busy with impeachment while Trump shut down travel. Months after that, Democrats were still telling people to go out and eat at your local Chinatown restaurant. Then they blame Trump for not shutting things down fast enough which would've limited deaths.
It's their country. Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame. At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.
You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)? Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner. They are all from the same growing COVID family.
Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.
False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.
Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?
As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted. We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.
Gain of function research (GoF research or GoFR) is medical research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research) that alters an organism or disease in a way that increases pathogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenesis), transmissibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_(medicine)), or host range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_tropism) (the types of hosts that a microorganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganism) can infect). This research is intended to reveal targets to better predict emerging infectious diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_infectious_disease) and to develop vaccines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccines) and therapeutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutics).What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?
How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist? Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that? No, I didn't think so.Was that one ever walked back?
What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?
Let's all learn how to be skeptical from now on.
The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation.
Statement by President Joe Biden on the Investigation into the Origins of COVID-19
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/ (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/)
S.1867 - COVID–19 Origin Act of 2021
http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions (http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions)
As your opinion fine. As fact, sources of the first two were tracked down, and COVID 19 we have a couple of possibilities, but simply don't know yet. Maybe in 90 days or so we'll know more and have more complete information to evaluate. Viruses do evolve naturally, gaining and losing function. Research tries to predict mutations and the possibility of gaining more dangerous qualities, such as ease of transmission.
We'll just have to be patient and see how the facts unfold.
Someone, somewhere may well have.
http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf (http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf)
This is what I mean with you at times. When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with...
It's their country. Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame. At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.
Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.
Did you even read any of these two links? There's absolutely NOTHING in these two that delivered anything we didn't already knew or have since this whole thing began. Trump, as early as January last year, upon banning travel to China was confronted by opposition, notably the WHO, saying China had always been transparent with the current epidemic and they are taking care of it, assuring the world it will be contained. All events in between, what has changed?
I have now asked the Intelligence Community to redouble their efforts to collect and analyze information that could bring us closer to a definitive conclusion, and to report back to me in 90 days.
Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of National Intelligence shall—
(1) declassify any and all information relating to potential links between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the origin of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19), including— [list of specific items]
Back in April when Trump announced there's enough intelligence gathered that gave him no doubt this was more than a potentiality that it came from a lab, Democrats demonized him - and this came from the DNI shortly after.
http://Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (dni.gov)
No Sireee Donnie We wouldn't want to blame anyone else on this pandemic other than the target of affection, now do we? Besides, in less than a year there's going to be a campaign about fighting 'Asian hate'. in the land.
What changed since then? Yeah...the *2020 election*. (http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19)
Your attempt to elevate yourself fails miserably. Science, for all its merit, is nothing more than an *opinion* unless proven wrong. Remember the dinosaur tales?
Do we really have a choice? China had already publicly pushed back against Biden, like it did against Trump.
There you go again. Exactly 22 years ago to the month....it's still 'someone, somewhere' to the day. Which as above...means *nothing*.
Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?
Bullshit. It's ok, you can say it, but before aiming to throw it at me lets review:
After I briefly mentioned the ongoing of Biden and Congress, that will hopefully bring more clarity:
You replied [emphasis added]
And I responded with the links to the WH press release, dated 26 May 2021 and the Senate Bill S.1867 of the same date.
You now reply:
Of course I read them, and there is nothing we don't already know. That wasn't even the point of our little discussion in the first place. But it seems you missed the point by a mile. May I kindly ask if you read them in the context of our discussion?
Maybe lets try to get it straight:
1. Biden gave intelligence services 90 days from 26 May 2021 to dig up more information that can help establish the origin of the virus.
2. The Senate in S.1867 in turn voted unanimously to require DNI (Head of the Intelligence Community) to:
So 90 days from 26 May 2021, around 24 August 2021, Biden will get a report from DNI, and that report will be declassified except for sources and methods. Only at that time will it be possible that we may know more. Neither you, nor I, or the president will know anything more until then.
And Biden, not being satisfied with the report he was given in January, he ordered the intelligence services to redouble their effort and Senate ordering that any information be declassified.
It seems you do not understand the scientific method.
In the context we are discussing think Opinion = Observation
The video is short and quite good.
No, we have to wait and see if something new is revealed towards the end of August.
You were the one that asked:
I simply gave you a link to research of HIV where it seems GOF was being used. Why complain about that? Did you not find it helpful?
GQ,
you're a bright guy. You enjoy the discourse as much as I do along with being able to take a poke here and there. You want answers to the same questions I do, including if the bug was related to work at the lab.
I'm not like someone else who used to hang around jumping through every hoop imaginable just to try and be right, even if wrong. I usually don't argue for the sake of argument. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit such. But can I make a simple request ? If you want to shoot a few hoops, let's stick with a basketball instead of making me try dribbling a football. I'm all for constructive discourse if that is what you really want. If not, just let me know and I'll keep my replies simple instead of engaging in efforts to learn something and draw lines we both can agree on.
Go ahead and throw the BS if you still want to :D
OY!
Not exactly. Biden was pressured to the mounting evidence provided to him by the Trump administration late December 2020. Evidences that were dismissed and scorned by the Democratic congress.
How Biden came round to the Wuhan lab-leak theory | Financial Times (ft.com) (http://www.ft.com/content/923e0256-7f7e-43ef-b4fe-64c066b8b70b)
One person familiar with the situation said the National Intelligence Council, which collates information from the entire intelligence community, produced two reports last year assessing US intelligence on the origins of Covid-19. The director for national intelligence declined to comment.
Those efforts, coupled with a third “scrub” of the intelligence this year, led to Biden saying last week that two of the 18 branches of the intelligence community leaned towards the natural origin scenario, while a third was more inclined towards the lab-leak theory.
Biden said the three had only “low or moderate confidence” in their conclusions while the other branches did not have enough evidence. That has sparked concern that 90 days is not sufficient for intelligence officials to reach any solid determination.
“The community as a whole is far away from reaching anything that we could call even a halfway firm conclusion,” said Paul Pillar, a former senior CIA official. “The fact that many of the agencies involved have not reached a consensus even for a ‘low confidence’ judgment tells you they’re a long way away from anything conclusive.”
1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4. I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.
Fair enough. For now my *opinion* was based on the email provided to us by FOIA written to Fauci by one of his colleague who investigated and studied COVID-19, and came up to the conclusion – COVID-19 have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus.
Many times on these discussions, facts and opinions are expressed. Some are reality-based, some mythical, while some are conjured up by sheer ignorance. IF the basis of MY opinion (in this specific exchange) that a study was conducted (science) as evidenced by a once-classified exchange between scientists, where it found (scientific method) evidence, conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification, that this virus have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus. Would this still be an *opinion* to you?
So your link/s, added nothing to what we already had in our hands. There already were evidences on hand. Biden's initial investigation order was to hand-off the duty to WHO, whom we already know is irresponsible and easily coerced by China. So, delegating an investigation to the usual suspect is an exercise in futility. That's akin to delegating migrant problems we have to his VP - Kamala Harris, man.
He hands off a new executive command to 'double' the effort for this investigation and report back to him in 90-days. Declassify information and evidence he already have on-hand? Takes 90-days to do that? You know, I know, I'm sure he knows - China isn't going to welcome his investigators with open arms while ushering them into the Wuhan lab and giving them all the necessary documents to insure this investigation is successful.
So, again, what is it we have or know today - that we didn't already have? My guess - ZIP, NADA! Would this investigation prove the lab leak ('theory' at this time) conclusively confirmed simply by the evidence our intelligence have on hand - or does China need to submit their confessions before it becomes 'conclusive'?
So, like the response I gave BillyB above that sprung this exchange with you and me. Fauci not only needs to get fired, he needs to spend a very long time in jail for everything he had done around this pandemic. For helping create, then politicize a deadly virus that plague not only the US, but nations beyond.
Funny.
There you go, exactly what I said on my opening line in my previous post.
Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.
Well, yeah no sh!t Captain Obvious! They had the intelligence apparently since April 2020, so I'm certain there's not much we can do at this point but, well, wait, and likely wait some more.
A failed experiment done on something? Not really. Because it proved what I stated in my post that prompted your silly link...if GOF have an ounce of merit, THERE SHOULD've been a cure for HIV / Herpes.
Then you gave me a 22 year old failed experiment.
No comment.
So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?Read again and cite where I said that.
Ain't happening. You even contradict yourself with what you googled.
One learns even from a failed experiment. That's also part of the scientific method. HIV/Herpes, sure, would be nice to kick them in the butt as well as the common cold. We'll get there one day. Research continues.
Sure, many like you and me would like to know where the virus came from. That there is political pressure to do so is obvious, but at least now there is a president who wants to look at all the possibilities and not just one.
I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.In my opinion, trump was trying to demonize china in order to try to force them to give more concessions in other areas of business. I wouldn't blame China, Trump, or Biden for the pandemic. Until proven otherwise, I remain of the belief that it occurred naturally. If somewhere down the line it is proven that the US/China created this virus, then the people of the world can righteously grumble fiercely at the lack of responsibility, and call for some sort of consequence. Meanwhile, I continue to take my chances without the vaccine or obsessive social distancing, and I'm not dead yet.
Amazingly...he lost all faculties and knowledge in how to Google despite that's really all he'd been doing...
:P
Read again and cite where I said that.
Yeppers statement still stands. *Scientific Method* was not the subject of conversation nor was a point of contention, science was. Science is NOT an absolution. It stands to scrutiny. LMAO, in certain regions, science is, or can be, politically manipulated i.e causes of global warming. It's prevalence stands on the balance until it is proven wrong. Thus I brought up the matters surrounding the science of the dinosaurs - until it came to light that 'science' was erroneous and debunked.
Not my fault you (still obviously do not) couldn't make the distinction between what science is from what scientific method is. Whether you like it or not, there IS a very clear difference between the two. It'll serve you much better to be careful next time.
One more time, hopefully last...I remarked not an ounce of merit came out of GOF and cited the example of the fact no progress had been made in curing cases of HIV / Herpes. You came up with a link that (maybe you hoped I wouldn't read, or maybe you never read after Goggling for it) was done back in 1999 which concluded to what I inferred. There's still no cure for HIV or Herpes or any other viral diseases we know today despite the experiment.
Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.
So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method? Ain't happening. You even contradict yourself with what you googled.
Science is asystematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’.
Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION.
False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.
Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?
As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted. We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.
1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4. I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.
You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)? Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner. They are all from the same growing COVID family.
Yes, but too bad he was demonized, scorned, collectively dismissed to be able to fully carry out what was already corroborated by enough evidence, while circumstantially or otherwise at the time.
So when I told you when Biden ordered an investigation back in January which resulted in ZIP, NANA, zilch due in large part he dimwittedly delegate the task to WHO, it - predictably - resulted into well, zip, nada, zilch.
No need to Google, let me *bring the US* to you since I understand you can't possibly 'know'.
Now you say with your links that he'll 'double the effort' to investigate this even *deeper*, deeper exactly as to 'how'? Send the SEAL team to infiltrate the lab in the dark of night unbeknownst to the CCP? Gather all the evidences of *documents* destroyed over a year ago? Maybe Have Dr. Daszyk (sp) testify in Congress what he knows so we can all rest peacefully at nights going forward?
I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.
GQ,
Thanks for breaking this out into two parts.
1. Discussion on Science and the Scientific Method.
2. Discussion on Gain of Function, whether beneficial or not.
Let's look at the first.
Your Statement:
My Reply:
What was, or was not 'googled' aside, lets simplify your argument that somehow seems intended to separate Science from the Scientific Method.
and
I assert the Scientific Method is the 'systematic study' part, integral to Science. 'Science' as you seem to define it leaves leaves out the refining loops in the image below I marked red.
(http://i.postimg.cc/GhCmgtKd/Traditional-scientific-method-Hypothesis-based-deduction-The-central-concept-of-the.png)
Even before the Scientific Method was defined and structured as above, it was used, albeit loosely, since the beginning of time.
Let's take the age old quest to turn lead into gold, where many ingredients were mixed with molten lead, with disappointing results. Folks never gave up and eventually did find a method to turn lead into gold, proving that it is possible using a particle accelerator in a process called transmutation.
We're using it here in our discussion as well, but it seems you desire to come to a conclusion that China somehow fiddled around with the virus and released it either by accident or with intent, based on incomplete information, or that somehow the information is being withheld from us or has already been somehow 'proven' by an email Fauci exchanged. (please do point me to that email as I am curious). The whole point of science is to find out 'how things work', we don't disagree there.
I don't think we are that awful far apart GQ. I am simply saying let the process go forward, and with a bit of time and effort, maybe we'll be able to find out where this virus originated. We know it did originate somewhere (except for the few who that say it was just a scam in the first place), so finding the answer is certainly possible, hopefully taking less time than transforming lead to gold.
Can we agree on this now? If not, please do show me where I am wrong. If I am somehow missing the point let me know as well. I am capable of learning. I do admit not quite understanding what you meant with the dinosaurs, but that's another topic in itself. Maybe comet vs volcano, vs some virus or such?
As for GOF, we have the following:
IIRC started with your statement:
and I answered:
Then:
I do recall stating that prior research on SARS and MERS provided the insight with quickly developing vaccines for COVID, but don't believe I addressed GOF or not. My prior statement below:
If I stated otherwise before, and in context with our current discourse please do remind me where.
To wrap things up a bit, I'm neither trying to baffle you with bullshit nor attempting to dazzle you with brilliance. I am truly enjoying discourse with you. You are outside my 'comfort zone' with opposing views. Much better than simply 'echoing' and backslapping as some others seem to enjoy. In the last couple of posts we seem to be getting 'somewhere', maybe not with agreement, but at least beginning to understand better 'where we're coming from'. That in itself is a lot around here :D
I think his error was to engage in destructive discourse, that goes nowhere. His 'knee-jerk' reaction to anything he perceives as being negative is to blame someone else for it. This of course lead to an environment you perceive as being 'demonized'. As to corroboration and evidence, well that is still obviously ongoing.
As I stated before, we don't know what is going on in the background, folks are working every day on this. I do know that trying to work with someone is much better than working against someone. Last year we did not really attempt to create an atmosphere of cooperation with the ongoing and incessant (even to this day) blame game. Right now he has reports from several agencies that disagree, and Biden at least wants them to try to dig together this time around to reach some consensus, and if consensus either way is even possible. In addition, the world wants to know what the source is, not only the US, so it is a matter of trying to work with China and not against China that has any hope of providing answers. Would we allow hundreds of Chinese investigators and scientists into the US if some novel outbreak happens in the future? I dunno....
I fully agree with the bold part. As for the rest, debatable but really, not worthy of the time as it has no bearing on what we really want to know.
I still remember when the WHO made their first announcement (fed by CCP) that China had contained the virus in Wuhan and that it is NOT transmissible from human-to-human; that Trump bit into that hook, line and sinker.
The Democrats claim Trump didn't warn people enough. Here's some stuff I posted back in April to show Democrats and liberal media not taking it serioiusly. Biden has his experts telling him about the virus and no once did Biden notify the American people it's worse than what Trump has been saying.
Trump's State Department put out a warning to Americans visiting China January 15 and later enacted travel restrictions.
http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in (http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in/)
January 14 - the WHO (World Health Organization) sent out a tweet declaring that there is no evidence of human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19 virus.
January 23 - Vox - "The evidence on travel bans for diseases like Coronavirus is clear: They don't work"
January 24 - Dr. Anthony Fauci National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) Director reported:
• Covid 19 It isn't something the American public needs to worry about or be frightened about, because we have ways of preparing and screening of.
• It's a very, very low risk to the United States, but it's something that we as public health officials need to take very seriously.
• However, Joe Scarborough and wife Minka had a segment where they said "no Americans need to be concerned about COVID-19 and should be more concerned about the common flu.
January 26: Fauci says Coronavirus is a very low risk to our country
January 27: Pelosi proposes legislation to bar the President from closing border
January 28: Business Insider - "flu is a far bigger threat to most people in the US than the Wuhan coronavirus"
January 29: LA Times - "The new coronavirus isn't a threat to people in the United States - but the flu is"
January 29: Joe Biden in a speech in Iowa said that Trump's idea of restricting travel from China was "Xenophobic".
January 30: WHO calls corona virus a healthcare emergency.
January 31: TRUMP CLOSES OUR BORDER to foreign nationals who had recently visited China.
• WHO recommends against closing the border.
• Democrats attack Trump as racist and xenophobic
• NYT quotes an epidemiologist as saying that Trump's decision to restrict travel from China was "more of an emotional or political reaction."
• WaPo quotes a Chinese official asking for "empathy" and slamming the White House for acting "in disregard of WHO recommendation against travel restrictions."
• Vox tweets: "Is this going to be a deadly pandemic? No." (Tweet deleted weeks later).
February 1: Washington Post - "Get a grip, America. The flu is a much bigger threat than coronavirus, for now." New York Times - "Beware the Pandemic Panic - (used to justify unnecessarily severe limits on movement and civil liberties)"
February 2: TRUMP IMPOSES QUARANTINE on American travelers who recently visited China
• WHO says virus can be easily controlled
• CNN tweets a joke to downplay threat posed by Coronavirus: "There's a virus that has infected 15 millionAmericans across the country and killed more than 8,200 people this season alone. It's not a new pandemic — it's influenza."
• NYC Health Commissioner Barbot tweets: “As we gear up to celebrate the #LunarNewYear in NYC, I want to assure New Yorkers that there is no reason for anyone to change their holiday plans, avoid the subway, or certain parts of the city because of #coronavirus."
• New York City Health Commissioner Dr. Oxiris Barbot, “The risk to New Yorkers for Coronavirus is low and our preparedness as a city is very high. There is no reason not to take the subway, not to take the bus, not to go out to your favorite restaurant, and certainly not to miss the parade next Sunday. I’m going to be there.”
February 4: Politico - "Coronavirus quarantine, travel ban could backfire, experts fear"
February 7: Health Commissioner Barbot says "We’re telling New Yorkers, go about your lives, take the subway, go out, enjoy life."
February 9: The chair of NYC Health Committee tweets: "In powerful show of defiance of #coronavirus scare, huge crowds gathering in NYC's Chinatown for ceremony ahead of annual #LunarNewYear parade. Chants of 'be strong Wuhan!' If you are staying away, you are missing out!"
February 11: Biden, through his adviser, says the evidence "suggests" the coronavirus won't be a "serious pandemic."
February 13: DeBlasio's office tweets "There are ZERO confirmed cases of coronavirus in New York City, and hundreds of Chinese restaurants that need your business! There is nothing to fear. Stop by any Chinatown for lunch or dinner!"
• De Blasio tweets "It was my honor to spend time with our Asian-American owned small businesses in Flushing today. This vibrant community is standing strong but they need YOUR support. Our Chinatowns are open for business — make some dinner plans, do some shopping and stand with our neighbors!"
• Biden, through his advisor, praises de Blasio: "We don’t have a #COVIDー19 epidemic in the US but we are starting to see a fear epidemic. Kudos to @NYCMayor (and others) for standing against that."
February 17: Fauci says risk of coronavirus infection in U.S. is "miniscule” and people shouldn't wear masks unless they are contagious.
February 24: Nancy Pelosi says from San Francisco's China Town to come visit, it is safe and "there are no Coronavirus concerns". Then SF became one of the epicenters of the disease.
February 28: CDC RECOMMENDS SOCIAL DISTANCING
February 29: Fauci says risk is low and people can continue day-to-day routines re malls, movies[size=0.85em][/r]
[/size][/b]
- [/l]
That's what fake news says and it's wrong. As soon as WHO put out a tweet Jan 14th saying the virus is not human to human transferable, Trump put out a State Department warning Jan 15th. They knew China and WHO were lying and Trump immediately went into protecting American citizens. Here's a post I made last year documenting events.
BillyB-
This is a January 22, 2020 interview when Trump was in Davos early last year.
http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html)
Unless you can tell me this is actually Alec Baldwin, impersonating Donnie, making this in fact fake news (like you said), maybe a bit of caution on your part?
Actions are more important than words. While Trump says China has it totally under control, he knows they are lying and put out state department warnings and added a travel ban. We have spy agencies that monitor Chinese phones. We know what they are saying about the virus match up with their public statements. On the other hand, Trump could've said "China doesn't have it under control, they really F'd up and we're all doomed" using the strategy of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. Some people think that's irresponsible, possibly criminal.
In my humble [and likely extremely unpopular] opinion, there are few things more lovely than a never-ending curfew.
The peace of the nights here over the last year+ has been so incredibly precious. Sublime. Magical.
Humans deserve some silence to quiet their minds and soothe their souls, even if we are city-dwelling humans by choice.
I honestly don’t see it as taking our freedom away; I see it as gracing us with the gift of experiencing a time when everything seems to hold its breath.
If I were President of the World, every corner of the planet would go silent at 11pm.
I need your votes.
Scarcest thing I've read today. This is written by an American woman who has been living in the Republic of Georgia. There is a curfew here. Step outside after 11 PM and face a $600 fine.If they would have that nationally for the USA I would wager that it cuts crime by 50%.
Potentially bad news for mRNA vaccines
I am not a Doctor or a Scientist so I cannot offer a competent medical analysis, but as a layman, from where I sit, this doesn't look so good.
The Postmortem report says clearly “ These results indicate that the patient had already developed relevant immunogenicity through vaccination” yet he got infected by another patient at day 24 (after vax) upon being admitted to the hospital, and died 4 days later.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647)
Wouldn’t viral rna be expected when someone is infected?
If the vaccines are actually going to be used for genocide why would governments such as the US, Canada, Israel, be encouraging their people to get the shots? Are nations such as Israel trying to destroy themselves? If their goal was genocide, they would be giving the shots to the Palestinians first. The rich nations like the US would be giving the shots to people in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, so they can be killed off and we can take their resources. Why would we be killing ourselves off first? So the 3rd world people can come in and ransack an empty country?
Finnish PM says we are experimenting with humans, telling people vaccines are safe is a fairy tale, and the government may be involved in the crime of genocide.
The deceased man took a vaccine which they confirmed triggered an immune response yet the virus was able to infect every organ of his body. Remember those three vaccine experts I posted about here? They claim that experimental vaccines not thoroughly tested can compromise our immune system making us more vulnerable to pathogens that will be able to get past defenses. Translation: Mass depopulation.
More documents leaked. Looks like Moderna and our government was working on a coronavirus vaccine Dec 2019 before China announced the the virus's existence.
And again nothing at all unexpected. Researchers have been working on vaccines for COVID type virus for over a decade. How do you think we got vaccines so quick?
If the vaccines are actually going to be used for genocide why would governments such as the US, Canada, Israel, be encouraging their people to get the shots? Are nations such as Israel trying to destroy themselves? If their goal was genocide, they would be giving the shots to the Palestinians first. The rich nations like the US would be giving the shots to people in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, so they can be killed off and we can take their resources. Why would we be killing ourselves off first? So the 3rd world people can come in and ransack an empty country?
Fathertime!
Most 'experts' are paid and they have an interest in money and if the government inspectors approve their product, they are fine with that. I work with inspectors in construction and someone may say my work isn't adequate but I can claim it is if an inspector approves my work. Most buildings remains standing but an occasional building collapses due to shotty work. This can happen with vaccine but we are dealing with much more lives if mistakes are made. Politicians are eager to show the public they have a solution so they are more likely to push government agencies quickly approve experimental vaccines.
Earlier I brought up three experts, ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer, ex senior project manager for epidemics at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and French Nobel Peace Prize winner on vaccines. They all are puzzled with the current strategy of vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines when we were able to beat pandemics and epidemics in the past with other strategies. They say the experimental vaccine may compromise our immune system making us more likely to die when the next pathogen shows up in our bodies. Maybe there's a low 1% of this happening but billions of lives are at stake. They make their claims because they sincerely care about humanity. They aren't making money and the ex Pfizer VP said he lost friends blowing the whistle on these experimental vaccines. Before 2020, if you gave someone in public an experimental vaccine or drug, it would've been a crime. Now it's legalized.
I don't how any of this relates to the question of why would a country such as Israel (Where about everybody is vacinated) want to commit genocide with a poison vaccine. If the vaccine where a way to get people to die or become sterile, it would be administered to nations or groups of people like the Palestinians, Iranians, Venezuelans, not to Israelis, Americans, or Germans. I think the whole notion of the vaccine being a poison to commit genocide isn't at all supported by evidence or reality.
Fathertime!
We don't have a vaccine that was created so quick. We never had a coronavirus vaccine approved for use on humans and still don't. SARS happened almost 20 years ago and it escaped Chinese labs 6 times and although they worked on vaccines for SARS, they were never approved for use on humans.
[/size]You need a virus in hand to create a vaccine. Vaccine work on SARS may not apply to SARS2. The vaccines for SARS2 advertise 90%+ effectiveness. A slight variant of SARS2 show up, effectiveness may drop to 60%. SARS and SARS2 are very different.[size=78%]
BC, you should apply as a salesman for big pharma. I'm not buying though. Since you're big on science, I'm sure you also believed those scientists and WHO who last year said the virus was natural and couldn't have been made in a lab. Keep trusting the science!
Earlier I supplied online documents from moderna, pfizer, and the FDA saying the vaccines have emergency authorization and they aren't approved for use on humans. Usually for vaccines, full approval is granted in 7-10 years. Make no mistake, you're part of a human experiment.
The Commission has so far given 4 conditional marketing authorisations for the vaccines developed by BioNTech and Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Janssen Pharmaceutica NV following EMA positive assessment of their safety and efficacy. Several other vaccines are at different stages of assessment by the European Medicines Agency.
Here's a reminder for everybody. In the dozen years Moderna has been in existence, they have never had a vaccine make it to phase 3 testing. The COVID vaccine was rushed and skipped phase 3 so it could enter the market under emergency authorization. Still to this date, no mRNA vaccine has ever been approved for use on humans or even approved to enter into phase 3 testing. We are still in the experimental phase experimenting on the World's population. I sincerely hope it ends well.
There you go again, spouting regurgitate straight from the swill bucket. All this has been fully discussed, the approvals as well as a table showing prior research for vaccines developed for SARS/COVID family of virus and technologies used posted long ago. Quite forgetful fella you are!
Are you stating fact or opinion here? If opinion, state so. If fact, at least attribute your source, otherwise your 'facts' are, and remain, mostly BS.
Most politicians and governments do not want to commit genocide. They lack information to make educated decisions.
. How many people knew what those three vaccine experts said before I posted it here? The media and big tech suppresses info from certain experts. Why? Don't everybody in the world have the right to hear all sides before injecting an experimental vaccine in their bodies?
In EU:
The Commission has so far given 4 conditional marketing authorisations for the vaccines developed by BioNTech and Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Janssen Pharmaceutica NV following EMA positive assessment of their safety and efficacy.
Obviously approved for marketing and use in humans, the conditional part requiring yearly renewal and reporting for a limited time. Fact. Other countries various approvals.
So you believe you have better information than the Israelis on COVID. I seriously doubt that.
There are always going to be some people that don't agree. There will never be unanimous agreement. If that were the standard absolutely nothing would get done about anything.
Here is another opinion with a solid basis in facts. If you are following the science as you have so often claimed, give me your opinion on this lady's research. I have never claimed to know 'why' the rush to get such an untested synthetic into everybody on earth (and still don't) this may offer some insight. A question you should ask yourself is why the world stops literally everything to do so for a virus they claim kills .02% of the population. Btw, dying of covid and with covid are two separate things that is conveniently glossed over in your sacred media sources
I have had the Pfizer vaccine for several months now.
The side effects are that I am better looking and have a higher IQ.
This has been verified by several people and by standard IQ tests.
Some of my toes are starting to curl. After they all have curled, I will be able to wear a smaller sized shoe.
Also, I have a higher sex drive but my peter has shrank.
But my wife is now home (arrived last evening) and this morning she never complained about peter size. Maybe she was just so interested in having sex that she never noticed.
To rectify this situation, all I have to do is look on Internet and buy one of the many products available to increase peter size.
A good question FP, but first would like to point you out to the great powers of persuasion. It's not new and has been used by many species and humans in both positive and unfortunately very negative ways throughout history. But let's keep it simple. One of my first jobs was selling a financial instrument. The basis of selling is pretty much the same for all products, and there are very many verbal techniques that can quickly and efficiently convince folks they are somehow missing out or need this newfangled product that I can give them. I did not continue long with this line of work, because it was simply wrong. Any successful sales force will be well-trained in all the little tricks and tips of the trade…
I did watch a decent bit of the video in the link you posted and could fairly easily identify the mix of 'ancient aliens' along with several basic verbal sales techniques. Also, some stuff like being able to answer a question that doesn't have an answer, but still will give the audience an impression the answer was provided.
A lot is presentation as well. Here is a rather famous one.
People can and do believe the most outlandish ideas expressed by those they trust, or seem more knowledgeable. How many million gallons of snake oil were sold? The power of persuasion has increased manyfold with our new ways of communicating with each other. Audio, video and text can be put together by normal folks that are as effective as those where whole advertising and production companies were involved.
Regarding your question in bold above, the facts available seem to dispute your hypothesis, mainly the graph below that has been posted several times over the last year. IIRC BillyB at that time used the same chart as an example that excess deaths were not reflecting what was being reported, and would be comfortable with his rationale excess deaths remained as they were at the time. They didn't and the data for excess deaths far exceeded anything we thought was possible back then. Had the data shown that excess deaths did not rise notably, I would be agreeing with you and BillyB today.
I have my second shot tomorrow afternoon and nothing will stick to me either except a band-aid. At the risk of looking and sounding really stupid, I'll try to bring a good magnet with me. Will you take my word for it that the magnet did not attract the vial or syringe?
Remember FP, I'm not trying to convince you or BillyB or anyone else to get the shot. I suggest you do, but I'm not going to twist your arm. Don't twist mine either.
Regarding your question in bold above, the facts available seem to dispute your hypothesis, mainly the graph below that has been posted several times over the last year. IIRC BillyB at that time used the same chart as an example that excess deaths were not reflecting what was being reported, and would be comfortable with his rationale excess deaths remained as they were at the time. They didn't and the data for excess deaths far exceeded anything we thought was possible back then. Had the data shown that excess deaths did not rise notably, I would be agreeing with you and BillyB today.
BC, you say I've been offering opinions on this vaccine issue and you believe you possess facts because they told you what is fact. They lied to you. Read the fine print.
Here's something simple. The FDA website says the risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. Can you agree with that your do you have experts that can vouch the vaccines are safe and effective? Once you get on the same page as me, we won't be disagreeing on the safety and risks of vaccines as often.
EMA’s human medicines committee (CHMP) has completed its rigorous evaluation of Comirnaty, concluding by consensus that sufficiently robust data on the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine are now available to recommend a formal conditional marketing authorisation. This will provide a controlled and robust framework to underpin EU-wide vaccination campaigns and protect EU citizens.
Here is the link to the EMA version: http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-first-covid-19-vaccine-authorisation-eu (http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-first-covid-19-vaccine-authorisation-eu)
(http://i.postimg.cc/SRf4z0Ds/Screen-Shot-2021-06-20-at-20-58-17.png)
http://www.fda.gov/media/144412/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144412/download) page 2
Funny video BC. Thanks for making me famous but how do I know that is an mRNA vaccine in there instead of water? ;)
I can agree that the FDA once said "it is reasonable to believe the benefits outweigh the risks" back on Dec 11, 2020. It's a statement that has a hint of doubt in the product but expresses enough confidence to say it's okay. But after reviewing more data and observing what it's doing on the population, the FDA changed their stance in April for the J and J vaccine expressing much more doubt and less confidence by saying "Risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. That statement is also in the moderna and pfizer notes in link below. Check out the date on that paperwork.
http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download
http://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download
The FDA is now making a 100% true statement when they say the risks and benefits of COVID vaccines are unknown. Usually when I debate people on the left, they tell me to listen to and trust the science. There should be no more debate since the truth as been revealed if we listen to and trust the inspectors(FDA) of those scientists.
Knowing how long it takes to develop a safe and effective vaccine or drug, it's common sense that the current vaccines being pushed may cause more harm than benefit. It takes 'time' to learn all this. When this experiment on you and others are finished in 7+ years, they can write a more accurate report on if the vaccine was a success or not. In the mean time, they will be asking you to take more experimental vaccine shots.
I'm not anti vaccine. If I was 85 yo and had a 20% chance of dying from COVID, I would take an experimental vaccine. Every few years I take a flu shot. What is irresponsible is our government and scientific community are vaccinating perfectly healthy people with an adequate immune system against COVID with a vaccine that may cause more harm than help. Their experiment affects billions of lives and if they are wrong, billions of people will have health problems and die early.
I asked people I know if they were told that the risks and benefits of vaccines are unknown before given the shot. They said "no". If they were told the truth, they may have changed their minds. My wife has given hundreds of people shots and she didn't tell them about what I showed you guys. Don't you think it's irresponsible to give people an experimental drug or vaccine without telling them that the benefits and risks of the drug or vaccine are unknown? People have the right to know about the product going into their body. They shouldn't need to google for truth like I have. What is going on is not ethical. This, among other things is why many people currently don't have trust in our government, medical and scientific communities.
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine has not undergone the same type of review as
an FDA-approved or cleared product. FDA may issue an EUA when certain criteria are
met, which includes that there are no adequate, approved, available alternatives. In
addition, the FDA decision is based on the totality of scientific evidence available
showing that the product may be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19
pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product. All of these criteria must be met to allow for the
product to be used in the treatment of patients during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Have you only just had your second jab BC? Where are you having this done? In Italy?
I had my second jab just a little over two weeks ago now and I'm in my early to mid forties, but then I'm in a first rate nation, the UK, not a third world EU country ;D
You may well have a point about what folks are told or not told about the vaccine. The FDA does provide the "FACT SHEET FOR RECIPIENTS AND CAREGIVERS" which is what all those getting vaccines should have in their hand.
http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)
That states something like this:
Revision date 10 May 2021
Folks not being given this information is of course wrong, but again that may be some report you received and obviously not personal experience, so beware. I was provided the same information when I logged in to retrieve my set appointment date. In addition, I sat in front of a fully qualified MD before each shot who went over my health questionnaire, asked a few questions about medical history and suggested the vaccine that best fit my needs. Today I was asked about any reaction to the first shot and made aware that this time the reaction may be increased and not to wait too long before taking a common fever medication if I do get a higher fever.
The UK's Professor Chris Whitty who is leading the UK's response to the virus, some interesting comments here:
"Chris Whitty issues worrying Covid warning for next 'two or three years' | Bournemouth Echo" http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19382113.amp/ (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19382113.amp/)
Seems to suggest that further Vaccinations may become needed to deal with the variants in the next two to three years. Also mentions after that development of a polyvalent vaccine whatever that is, my guess a vaccine that can deal with many strains and or updates as it goes, to then deal with the virus.
How many people here that got the jab got paperwork saying the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown? Everybody I talked to including my parents say they signed something but didn't read it and don't think there was many pages to read. There's two dozen pages. I can't image those using drive through vaccination sites reading two dozen pages before getting the jab.
The vaccination provider must communicate to the individual receiving the
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine or their caregiver, information
consistent with the “Fact Sheet for Recipients and Caregivers” prior to the
individual receiving Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine has not undergone the same type of review as an FDAapproved or cleared product. FDA may issue an EUA when certain criteria are met, which
includes that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. In addition, the FDA
decision is based on the totality of the scientific evidence available showing that the product may
be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and
potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.
based on the totality of scientific evidence available
showing that the product may be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19
pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product
the FDA decision is based on
the totality of scientific evidence available showing that the product may be effective to prevent
COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the
product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.
Ads, celebrities, government officials etc... say the vaccine should be taken. There are no ads saying the risks and benefits are unknown. One sided advertising and the creation of quick easy access vaccination sites are done to get at least 70% of the population vaccinated. They do not want to scare people with the truth.
Another article to scare us. Current vaccines loses efficacy against variants. The three experts I mentioned previously said our immune system can handle the variants as easily as the original virus. I'm sure they'll be asking you to take another experimental vaccine before winter arrives. They aren't announcing it now because they don't want to alarm the public but I know they are currently working on the vaccines.
Two videos in the link below of Dr. Yeadon from England. He graduated top of his class, former VP and Chief Science officer at Pfizer, and started his own biotech company which he later sold for $350 million dollars. He's not some youtube or government hand picked doctor to make statements to fit the narrative. He's well qualified to speak on the matter of vaccines yet mainstream media and government want him silenced. Earlier I posted his remarks that the current vaccines can lead to mass depopulation. He's alarmed at the FDA's approval that children get vaccinated. Currently WHO doesn't recommend children getting vaccinated. Dr. Yeadon says they tested in a strange way and it's not known if the vaccines are truly effective. He feels the vaccines were fraudulently approved for emergency use.
http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/ (http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/)
The 24 pages is not the fact sheet for recipients/caregivers. It is the one for providers.
http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download)
It clearly states:
So of course those that receive the vaccine should receive the information for whatever vaccine they receive. The fact sheets are 6 pages.
Moderna http://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download)
Pfizer http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)
Janssen http://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download)
These folks are not profiting from the vaccine, nor do they mention specific products. Maybe go through the process yourself and see what kind of information is given to you or not instead of dismissing truth outright, based on no knowledge. After you have received the information from those holding syringes, you can always say you don't want it. No one will twist your arm. Give it a try and let us know how it went. If there were any lapses, or you felt you were not properly informed, you can do your civil duty and take it up with those leading the effort at your chosen location.
These folks are not profiting from the vaccine, nor do they mention specific products. Maybe go through the process yourself and see what kind of information is given to you or not instead of dismissing truth outright, based on no knowledge. After you have received the information from those holding syringes, you can always say you don't want it. No one will twist your arm. Give it a try and let us know how it went. If there were any lapses, or you felt you were not properly informed, you can do your civil duty and take it up with those leading the effort at your chosen location.
So the paperwork that people receiving the vaccine doesn't say "Risks and benefits of the vaccine aren't known?" By omitting that statement, people are less educated and are more likely to allow the vaccine to be injected into their body. More unethical behavior from our government and our medical community but you want us to continue to listen to their 'expert' advice.
Did you watch the second video in my previous link where Dr. Yeadon he says scientific peer review journals have been bought by special interest and scientists today are pressured to say certain things otherwise they won't get grants? Whether it's pertaining to vaccines or global warming, I figured that out before the Dr. made the statement.
No, it does not.
It states:
based on the totality of the scientific evidence available showing that the product may
be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and
potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.
And is the official position of the FDA EUA's I provided you up thread. I guess you missed or skipped that part.
Or they might say the vaccine is far safer and much more effective than expected.
You are drawing conclusions without any substantiation. The FDA says the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown. Trust the science BC. The real science probably deserves a much harsher statement because they don't want to scare people but I'll settle for "the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown".
Based on the totality of scientific evidence available, including data from adequate and
well-controlled trials, if available, it is reasonable to believe that the product may be
effective to prevent, diagnose, or treat such serious or life-threatening disease or
condition that can be caused by SARS-CoV-2, or to mitigate a serious or life-threatening
disease or condition caused by an FDA-regulated product used to diagnose, treat, or
prevent a disease or condition caused by SARS-CoV-2.
The known and potential benefits of the product, when used to diagnose, prevent, or
treat the identified serious or life-threatening disease or condition, outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product.
In the UK today nearly 16,000 infections for yesterday, 19 deaths and about 1,500 people in hospital on ventilators. There's been about twenty something deaths for the past few days and they are apparently recorded as people dying from the virus within 28 days of transmission becoming apparent.
So not really sure who are filling up all the ventilator beds and dying, people who have had the vaccine, one dose or two? Or people that refused to get the vaccine?
Young adults will have only had one vaccine so far so don't know if it's them or younger still or whether it's older people who have had the vaccine with underlying health problems. Little seems to have been reported on who is those people are on ventilators or dying but we don't seem quite clear of it yet.
They're lying to you
Raising a possibility is not drawing a conclusion.
As to what the FDA said on 10 June:
Among the requirements for issuing Emergency Use Authorizations:
http://www.fda.gov/media/149935/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/149935/download)
All vaccines must meet these FDA requirements in order to receive an EUA.
End of the line BillyB.
UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.
http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf)
Israel has the highest percentage of their population vaccinated yet they are getting ill from another virus as if they were in Winter. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.
http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354 (http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354)
UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.
http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf)
It's likely that many of those vaccinated would have either not caught the virus because the vaccine protected them or had the virus but knew nothing off it, otherwise the numbers in the vaccine columns as testing positive right at the top of the table would have been far more as at that point at least half or more of the population would have been vaccinated.
BillyB,
Your proven ability to mangle words and language is only surpassed by your ability to misinterpret the data presented.
Your ASSessment of the data provided in the report is, to put it bluntly, completely wrong.
Should you have any doubt as to my assertion, please do contact the authors of the report, or a competent statistical analyst. In consideration of your difficulty comprehending the written word, I'm not even going to try and attempt to guide you through even more complex issues.
Israel has the highest percentage of their population vaccinated yet they are getting ill from another virus as if they were in Winter. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.
http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354 (http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354)
Snir noted that after the year of the pandemic, it is not surprising that these diseases are reappearing. “We did not see them during the winter because we were wearing masks and because of the lockdowns, but they are normal viruses,” she said.
Don't be shy, enlighten us with your interpretation of the data. Insults aren't going to convince people you're right and I'm wrong.
Nope. You made the assertion of fact. It's your turn to do your homework.
I will give you a tip though, start on page 38 "Monitoring of vaccine effectiveness" and test your extraordinary hypothesis using simple logic.
Covid vaccines have a high rate of efficacy. They lose some efficacy on variants but efficacy is still high. But so far, according to the data coming out of the UK from over 92,000 people infected by the Delta variant, those that taken two doses have a much higher rate of death compared to those who are not vaccinated. If the vaccine isn't protecting people, it's more likely to allow the virus to pass defenses and kill them.
The three vaccine experts I posted about talks about the very subject of people's immune system getting compromised by an experimental vaccine which in turn causes mass depopulation. They probably seen more than enough dead lab animals to understand this can happen.
So while most vaccinated people are protected against COVID and its variants, the vaccine certainly won't be able to protect them from other unrelated pathogens. Covid vaccinated people may have a much higher rate of dying from influenza or a bacterial infection compared to unvaccinated people. If a person's immune system is compromised by the vaccine, they'll carry the problem for life. Life expectancy will go down. The only benefit is governments won't need to pay out pensions as long. Time will tell if they gave us a vaccine or a poison.
Don't be shy, enlighten us with your interpretation of the data. Insults aren't going to convince people you're right and I'm wrong.
Trench,
the vaccine may not stop all infections, but does prepare the body to fight it off more effectively. For a few percent, the vaccine may not be effective. The data seems to represent that. As long as deaths stay at a low level, things are going in the right direction. Who knows how many of those that die were vaccinated, but a few, unfortunately, do.
http://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/covid-breakthrough-cases-cdc-says-more-than-4100-people-have-been-hospitalized-or-died-after-vaccination.html
UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.
Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.
An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 853,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 0.1%.
And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average.
The AP analyzed figures provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC itself has not estimated what percentage of hospitalizations and deaths are in fully vaccinated people, citing limitations in the data.
Trench,
I think we can be confident folks that are crunching statistics, but conclusions such as yours above can't be drawn from the UK Health Technical briefing document we've been discussing.
[edit]
To underline my point:
http://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
BillyB-
Too early to call on the cows to come home. The published efficacy of the vaccine, IIRC, is over 97%. The CFR shown on the article is well within the expected range even with this variant.
You’re doing the exact same that started this mass hysteria. Concentrating on the <1% while losing sight of the +99%er.
Over 92,000 people were observed in that data and those vaccinated with one and two doses are dying more often than those not vaccinated. People should pay attention to the data of that sample size.
How do you know what the efficacy rate of the vaccine is? What they tell you and what the truth is are two different things. The experts I mention upthread said it's too early to tell. Healthy peoples own immune system survival rate is going over 99% now yet we give credit to the vaccine for saving them?
The three experts I mentioned upthread said there could be a mass depopulation event due to the vaccines which could cost billions of lives. Don't blame me for that revelation. They probably own stock and are losing money saying what they're saying but they seem to genuinely care about humanity.
One guy is an ex VP of Pfizer, graduated top of his class, and started a biotech company that he turned around and sold for $350 million. Another guy is an ex senior project manager for epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation and the last guy is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines.
How many people promoting vaccines and who work at the FDA can hold a candle to those three guys? They are all leaders in their field of work and they are sounding off the alarm vaccinating healthy people with experimental vaccines is stupid, especially when we were able to beat all modern day epidemics and pandemics using other strategies.
Over 92,000 people were included in the Delta variant data. 11,000 were unlinked53,822 were unvaccinated and 44 died. for a ratio of 1 out of 1223 unvaccinated people died from the delta variant.
13,715 people had one dose of the vaccine for more than 21 days and still got infected by the Delta variant and 17 people died. 1 out of 807 people died although got one jab. Notice survival rate in the data significantly goes up if the vaccine was in the body for less than 21 days?
7235 people had two doses of the vaccine and still got infected by the Delta variant and 50 people died. 1 out of 145 people with two jabs are dying.
Trench,
The numbers aren't being questioned, only the layman's analysis of the numbers is the issue. This report specifically represents tested cases of the Delta variant. We don't know how representative this subset of data is for the general population of infected folks. Even simple questions like 'Were all positive COVID tests also tested to identify the variant? If not, what was the selection criteria for performing genome tests?' are important.
Statistics is a science. Neither you, I nor BillyB have the required knowledge and education to draw any authoritative conclusions from complex subsets of data and apply it to the general population. Let's leave that to the experts.
Have you gotten the jab GQ?
No. And I don't find the need to.
http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated (http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated)
Nice spin BC. Enjoy your next experimental vaccine coming out before Winter. If unvaccinated people were dying from the Delta variant 2 to 1 over vaccinated people, the media wouldn't need to put a spin on it and you can say "See BillyB! Vaccines are working great!"
No media spin here. The authors are not from the media news pool. Consider the article as authoritative as the report you are relying on.
Anyone got any idea on the outlook of this virus for the months/years ahead?
To me it looks like the odds are that the virus will continue to mutate to new variants. Partly due to Vaccinating large populations like India have and partly due to it transmitting in the population of each country, but how far that will go who knows?
Don't know if I understood your statement, but it's probably more likely the variant started there because of the billion unvaccinated and not the vaccinated. India was late in the vaccination game IIRC. Once a new variant is discovered, you can be pretty confident it's next door as well.
If depopulation of the world is the goal,
The original virus has had several variants now so if cases go up like they did last winter then another variant is probably pretty likely and likely the current vaccine will be less effective. So possibly by late summer a new variant may be on the up here will have to see.
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not) vaccinated
Billy,
I posted a statement from Dr. Fauci and factual information from CDC I believed others might find helpful.
Here's an interesting factoid I stumbled across:
(http://i.postimg.cc/6Q7t7CWV/Screen-Shot-2021-07-06-at-13-13-30.png)
Suggest getting the flu shot and possibly pneumonia vaccine as well in late Autumn.
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm
With governments lifting restrictions, the media is sure talking about variants lately. First the Delta and Lambda variants that are resistant to vaccines, now the Epsilon strain is being revealed to resist vaccines by as much as 70%. It's important the media bombards us with this new info so by being properly educated, we're more likely to comply when the government reapplies restrictions, lockdowns, and administer all new experimental vaccines.
http://nypost.com/2021/07/07/california-epsilon-strain-of-covid-19-could-evade-vaccines-study/
That's an interesting report Billy, if the Epsilon variant reduces vaccines down to being as little as 30 percent effective in some or many cases then we might have to rethink the way we run society long term.
The experts I posted about earlier said the solution is simple. We need to allow the virus to run its course. People with healthy immune systems have almost no chance in dying from the original virus and its variants.
It's a shame China allowed a biological weapon to escape a lab, lied about it, and the virus may have been funded by American tax dollars but it is what it is.
This is pretty much the case in Peru, with almost 6000 deaths per million vs 2000 and still counting. Final counts could be higher. Would this be deemed acceptable? Also, some part of the population will still take efforts to protect themselves, leaving fertile ground for additional variants.
Still, speculative and not deemed factual.
Relying on vaccines to do the job, yes, we need to worry about variants because vaccines lose efficacy on variants but if we rely on our own immune system, once we get one of the COVID variants or the original, we will have immunity to all. We won't have to worry about new variants showing up again. Variants will be weaker against our new and improved immune system that learned what they're about.
Last year, when someone got COVID, they were told to go home and let their immunity system fight it. The only people that got emergency care were those that were struggling to beat it. We can continue this program today without experimental vaccines. We have therapeutic medicines that passed all safety tests to help those struggling to beat COVID significantly improving their chances of survival. For some, there's too much money invested in vaccines to let it go.
How many lives lost is acceptable? None, but we can't get to none. We have failed to factor in risks. In the attempt to save millions of lives, we are risking the health of billions of people who have taken experimental vaccines and they will have to take more experimental vaccines with no end in sight.
China lied on many accounts. One being the virus is not human to human transferable. This kept the World's guard down. If they told the truth and allowed the World to help, we may have stopped the spread in Wuhan. We pay WHO to protect us but instead of investigating the virus for themselves, they simply repeated China's lies. China continues to lie. There are tiny nations with a few million people that have more infections and death than China, a nation of 1.4 billion.
Early emails revealed the virus came from a lab not an animal. When a pathogen shows up such as one that causes the bird flu and kills a half dozen people, 100 million birds are slaughtered to protect people. That's how it works. When the virus of the century shows up, no animals were harmed because the virus in its current form didn't originate from an animal.
Although you don't think these are facts, shouldn't our government spend some money to investigate so we make sure this doesn't happen again? I don't know if our tax dollars funded the virus but it is a fact our tax dollars went to the Wuhan laboratory to do some work. Why didn't our government health officials make sure China used our money properly? Maybe we wanted them to create a super virus? That's why we need an investigation. People need to be fired for incompetence and negligence if not for intentionally misusing funds that harmed America.
Getting back to our debate about magnetic properties of vaccines, it's true. Link below says Spanish researchers evaluated the properties of the Pfizer vaccine and its mostly made up of Graphene Oxide. The article claims it's poisonous to our bodies but I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with them.
Two science based sites below say graphene oxide has magnetic properties.
some fact checkers on social media are saying graphene oxide does not exist in vaccines. Why did they come out so fast trying to debunk the Spanish researchers findings? Maybe its true graphene oxide is harmful to our bodies in some degree? Dec 2020 link below says graphene based materials may be effective against COVID-19 so I tend to believe big pharma used graphene oxide over the fact checkers.
Daveman,
Until proven otherwise, it is within the realm of possibility that the virus somehow was formed, or brought into, and exited the lab. Problem is, other possibilities, as well, remain.
BC, a lot of my 'opinion' is based on the education I received from experts who are against vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines that have not passed all safety tests and are not approved by the FDA to be used on humans. I posted their interviews, articles and videos here. One is the ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer. Another is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines. Another is the ex senior project manager in charge of epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Nobody here has yet to dispute anything they say but when I repeat what they say, I'm told it's "my opinion".
Study in Chile shows signs the vaccine is allowing the virus to become more vaccine resistant after mutation.
http://trialsitenews.com/university-of-chile-scientists-study-indicates-sinovacs-vaccine-elicits-more-transmissible-potent-variant-called-lambada/
In fact, the article you linked says nothing you infer. Read it, comprehend what it really says.
In a nutshell, these results indicate that mutations present in the spike glycoprotein of the Lambda variant of interest give rise to increased infectivity and enable the immune escape of this specific lineage from neutralizing antibodies elicited by CoronaVac.
The study has not yet been peer reviewed. Sure, lets keep an eye out on it, but stop crying wolf, blaming vaccines and floating speculations as fact. Such can be outright dangerous.
We've successfully beat pandemics in the past using other methods. Trying to vaccinate every healthy living person on earth is something new they're trying.
Everything you just stated, BillyB, is repeated, and I've already answered. Cut n paste all you want, doesn't work.
That's a duck and dodge of the question BC, a fair question at that.
I notice you use a lot of "us, we, we're not going to" in your previous post apparently under the guise of the experimental vaccine is effective and safe. It is not proven to be either. This isn't polio or a seasonal flu. Highly tested vaccines btw that are not completely safe either. The covid vaccine isn't proven to be anything, yet. You, I and everybody is a part of the covid experiment whether we chose to be or not. Vaccines are not our only defense against viruses. You have been grossly misled
Btw BC, in your research before getting the vaxx, did you see the 32 pages of possible side effects?
FP,
I have little qualm with those stating their opinions, even you FP. But I do have issues with whomever makes statements of facts that don't add up, or rely on improbable, and unprovable theories that abound.
In the end, like voting, each of us, independent of whether properly informed or not, can make a choice and are not even forced to do so. I'll respect whatever choice they make, but if asked I'll share my opinion and supporting facts I have found that helped me make my choice.
I hope this helps you better understand my position on all this.
Just an aside note.
Over 400,000 reports to VAERS of COVID vaccine death, hospitalizations, misarranges, and injuries. Only a fraction of the people actually harmed knows about this site to report anything to it so you can be sure the numbers are much higher. The amount of death caused by the COVID vaccine is higher than all the other vaccines combined for the last 70 years. Of course those vaccines passed all safety tests so it's expected death and injury will be far less than an experimental vaccine.
http://www.openvaers.com/covid-data (http://www.openvaers.com/covid-data)
Sadder still if you consider Trump made sure to take credit for these vaccines, which is supported by yourself, too.
...People get sick, and die all the time for many reasons. Just because a VAERS report is made, doesn't mean the event is attributable to the vaccine. Some may well be, but many not.....
:o
BC-
I've said so many times before, trust the number. It will never lie to you.
You've asked BillyB for facts numerous times before, well here's one for you. According to VAERS (which you're thankful for having around to make the accounting) which you need consider for a minute..
The CFR of fully immunized (both dosages - received care/hospitalized), figuratively, nearly have identical death rate as non-immunized persons, of COVID-19. 2% vs 1.8%.
COVID-19 fatality reporting had a full year and a half to accumulate vs the vaccine administration. So technically, the fatality rate is literally over TWICE as fast for people who got vaccinated. Meaning it's (vaccine) is twice *more* lethal.
Is this factual enough to support BillyB's point?
GQ,
You propose a good line of discourse, but before doing so, and I'm confident you will agree, it is important to understand the source(s) of data, what it represents, and limitations in this case the VAERS database.
Before we even attempt, could you kindly review information at the following link with an open mind? http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/) It explains pretty well what VAERS data is and its limitations. Also http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/ (http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/) and supporting links in the article.
In addition, http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html) shows the results of CDC's evaluation of VAERS data. If you don't read any of the above, at least read this one.
Just to prevent us from going on wild goose chases. Or were you referring to another data source?
I can only hope you can take the time to understand my reasons above, the way I took the time to look at your links and tried to make sense of your perspective. Having said this, *strictly* working ONLY with the raw data we have on hand; would BillyB’s argument in this instance proves his point with you?
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.
GQ,
Another thought to ponder.
The numbers I've seen thrown around of those estimated to have been infected with COVID ranges somewhere between 30 and 70 million. More than 600 thousand have died.
Well over 150 million in the US are fully vaccinated. 6000, even 10,000 deaths depending on which sit you peruse, most of which cannot even be directly attributed to the vaccine with certainty, are well within the expected 'normal' death rates for various aliments like heart attacks etc for the appropriate age groups.
The official VERS site http://vaers.hhs.gov/ (http://vaers.hhs.gov/) is very complicated, but has better analytical reporting features than the openvaers.com site you may be referring to that retrieves raw data from the official VAERS.
VAERS is run by HHS, who is 'boss' of both FDA and CDC, all part of the organizations you seem to distrust.
Openvaers.com takes the official VAERS data and shows it from their POV of people, or loved ones, that are perceived to have been affected by the vaccine. I don't want to discredit Openvaers at all, just so you know where they are coming from and how they present the same data, and limitations. I wish the official site was as easily navigated, but it is made for other purposes and not really a public facing tool. It allows a deeper view into the data and capability to pick out events that stick out, i.e. their assessment of risk factors with the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS
I hope you find this post somewhat helpful, or at least thought-provoking.
Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages. The goal is to ensure that people who may have difficulty getting a vaccination because of issues like transportation see those barriers lessened or removed entirely.
I appreciate the effort, though my stance hasn't change.
Returning in kind, here's the last bit on my post to make sure you know it wasn't just a jibe.
“We are steadfastly committed to keeping politics out of the effort to get every American vaccinated so that we can save lives and help our economy further recover,” White House spokesperson Kevin Munoz said. “When we see deliberate efforts to spread misinformation, we view that as an impediment to the country's public health and will not shy away from calling that out.”
BC-
I Constitutionally and vehemently disagree with you that our government have the right to not only invade a person's privacy, suppress/oppress freedom of speech/choice, and implementing a police state for their own political purposes. You support the government do all these over a vaccine they could not, have not, approve?
If you would like to talk about mis / dis-information, start with that. Then continue with Democrats not only assailing last summer's nationwide riots, looting and protesting were NOT responsible for the heightened spikes of infection in the country. To deny this 'fact', and not even have it open for discussion, is more than unnerving.
I'm good with finding comfort in disagreeing with you over most of the recent political events taking place in our nation lately.
Number cruncher 101: approx. 34,000,000 was infected with COVID-19, 622,000 died. That's a survival rate of 98.17. What is it they claim the vaccine's efficacy is, 97%? Numbers never lie.
Sure, there should be limits, and I'm quite confident these limits will be tested, and any Constitutional issues resolved by the courts. That's how our system works. IIRC having seen public service announcements on TV, but can't remember who sponsored them. We have mandates in schools as well for vaccines. It seems many of the COVID vaccines might well be changed from EUA to A by the end of the year, maybe sooner.
Yeah, but that's a whataboutism. Not very useful for discussing this topic.
I believe the correct way to calculate is take 622,000 that died, and subtract the efficacy % of the vaccine. Let's take 90% - approximately 559,800 would still be living today had we had the vaccine at the outset and folks were fully vaccinated.
I'd suggest double-checking with your sources. Maybe post a link here, as I am curious. Thanks for bringing this up, as it is certainly a factual issue that does have an indisputable answer.
Remember, the vaccines don't necessarily prevent infection, but do reduce hospitalizations, and deaths that result from infections, by preparing our immune system beforehand for this type of virus. The flu shot is much less effective than most COVID vaccines, yet many line up each year to get it because it does save a significant amount of lives by lessening the effects.
Although exact statistics are not yet available as it's still early, it is reported that there are currently many more deaths among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.
Russia on Tuesday reported 24,702 new coronavirus cases and 780 deaths — a new single-day mortality record — as the country battles the surging Delta variant.
Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has ordered that airlines test all pilots and flight attendants for coronavirus once every 72 hours, the RBC news website reported.
Russia’s Black Sea coastal resorts including Sochi will require visiting tourists to vaccinate against the coronavirus within three days of arrival starting Aug. 1, regional authorities announced Friday.
St. Petersburg authorities will ban gatherings of more than 75 people from July 13, city officials announced. Case numbers have spiked in Russia's second-largest city as it has hosted seven matches in the football tournament.
— Supplies of Russia's EpiVacCorona vaccine have run out in Moscow, city authorities said Thursday, leaving Sputnik V and Sputnik Light as the only remaining vaccine options for Muscovites after supplies of the CoviVac ran out on June 22.
— Starting July 1, the Krasnodar region — where Russia's resort city of Sochi is located — will require all hotels and guest houses to obtain a negative PCR test or vaccination certificate from guests. Starting Aug. 1, the region will ban entry to resorts for unvaccinated vacationers.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/13/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-july-13-a69117
IIRC, the FISA protocol was abused for political purpose not too long ago. I'm certain you haven't forgotten that as it hasn't been that long ago. This' limit' you mentioned had been conveniently moved accordingly.
Exactly the point I made. You close down the country to prevent infection, but Democrats supports millions of folks to spend hours on in, every single day all summer long, shoulder to shoulder for hours on in, to advance their political purpose. BUT, let's not talk about that...right? Funny.
Wrong. Why? Because now you're reducing this to hypotheticals to serve your intended narrative, which is a false premise. You can't rewrite history because that isn't what happened. We have hard numbers available. This is why I'm 'not projecting' a hypothetical number of asymptomatic cases, which would even bolster my narrative, because we don't know what the total number of asymptomatic cases either. Besides, I don't need to do this, as again, the numbers we know comfortably supports my point.
As for the 98.17%er I cited...world-o-meter report for the US. Death vs recovered. You can chronologically slide backwards at any calendar point you like. I chose December 21, 2020 (approx. vaccine administration) to yesterday when I made the estimate. Feel free to use the very latest if it pleases you (today).
Not according to the prevailing health administrators that govern these vaccines. According to them, the *studies* has not yet concluded for them to approve the vaccine/s. So you either agree with their 'report', or you don't, but you can't agree to both at your convenience.
Besides, death rates hasn't really improved either since the administration, based on the reported statement I referred to above.
Really, :P
Numbers don't lie, BC. Politicians do all the time, and we just now found out, even top medical officials e.g. Fauci & co.
Correct, it serves no purpose for this discourse, only distracts.
Don't believe I wrote you were wrong. I shared what I understand at the moment and the way I interpret how the numbers should be calculated.
Your prior post prompted me to take a second look and indeed efficacy is determined by the trials, and efficiency determined by real world experience.
The link I provided in the edit are estimates, and real world efficiency looks good so far, but no definitive numbers I can find. As mentioned, still early.
See my remark above regarding efficacy vs efficiency.
My belief is there is a high level of confidence that the vaccines are working as expected, and are reducing deaths and hospitalizations among the vaccinated. Of course, I could be wrong, and so can you. We'll have to see real world results, in numbers. As for approvals, I expressed my opinion that it is likely this year from tidbits here and there.
Hard to prove either way at this point or? Estimates as per the last link look encouraging.
Know anyone at a hospital nearby? ;)
Our opinions may differ, but that's quite ok. Indeed, the numbers don't lie, but interpretation of the numbers can be faulty. I'll rely on the science, and my confidence level is high as 'on the ground' reports from the US are practically mirrored with those over here.
Fun Fact: President of Haiti who was assassinated didn't import vaccines for his people. Less than 48 hrs after assassination, White House announces Haiti will be getting vaccines. Did the Biden administration negotiate or forced the government of Haiti to accept vaccine exploiting the death of an anti vax world leader?
Dan, I didn't make a claim about the Biden administration. I asked a question. The most important person in Haiti was just assassinated and we're pushing products on them that were previously outlawed. People on the forum have always questioned government actions being highly suspicious of government.The American government routinely accuses Russia of killing journalists and poisoning people in the UK.
People all over the world protest and riot against bad government accusing them of many bad things. They have a good feeling on why their lives and their country is going downhill. They don't offer evidence but they appeal to other citizens of the world to support their cause and we don't call them conspiracy theorists.
No conspiracy theories. I can link evidence that came from American government sources that shows the crimes our government committed on the American people. These crimes will send people to prison. The people in my signature line are smart folks and understand what is going on. Once you understand what our government is capable of doing to the American people, you won't have faith they care about the Haitian people either. I personally think everybody has the right to see the evidence of the crimes committed against them but it's your forum and I won't post the links if you don't want.
Disagree. Certainly not distracting anything since you stated support to implement policing the public and violating our civil rights under the erroneous premise that 'conservatives' are dis/misinforming anything surrounding the vaccine, creating apprehension. The only dis/misinformation, based on my supporting posts I've relayed here, is coming from this current administration and that of its political party.
Okay, My rebuttal on the subject stands firmly as stated.
Again, disagree. It matters little at this point what or how you classify/differentiate efficacy / efficiency. Feel free to apply logical reasoning or logarithmic math to compare what the world was without the vaccines, to what it had become since patient 1.
In the clinical development of a vaccine, an efficacy study asks the question, "Does the vaccine work?" In contrast, an effectiveness study asks the question "Does vaccination help people?"
Not sure what this means. Is VAERs's total content report invalid?
I made no *interpretation* of the published numbers beyond its purpose and intent. You may choose to deny what it represent because it may counter your chosen narrative, that's fine. Certainly that's your right. But let's not confuse the facts to anything other than what it intended and represent.
In a multistate network of U.S. hospitals during January–March 2021, receipt of Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines was 94% effective against COVID-19 hospitalization among fully vaccinated adults and 64% effective among partially vaccinated adults aged ≥65 years.
But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.
As this is a subjective sub topic, I think we can simply agree to disagree.
Your POV is noted. Of course, real world data and comparisons when available might influence my position.
See more details surrounding my position below.
My point was not to invent terminology, but insert terms defined and in common use (thanks again to pointing me in this direction. I learned something and always enjoy that). See the following article written long before, in 1998, thus without influences of the current crisis. I think it goes to the heart of our discussion here. I hope you'll agree with using these terms in further discussions.
http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/ (http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/)
Obviously the data is not invalid, for the purposes of what the database was constructed for, namely as an ear for a variety of data, from different sources reporting negative events that may, or may not be associated with the vaccines.
My remark concerned the possibility of gathering anecdotal information from those near you that are working with hospitalized COVID patients, whether they note a trend of more being severely ill and dying being among the vaccinated or unvaccinated population.
Oh, I certainly don't want to confuse facts, in fact, clarification is my only intent - and yes, primarily for myself by comparison with another POV (yours) I have not discounted. If we stick to the facts, we cannot err much, and maybe learn.
<snip>
As for estimates of how effective the vaccines are, I can point you to the link I provided previously, but out of curiosity compared charts from both the estimated effectivity and worldometers, somewhat to scale and timeline for your consideration. Again, this is just a 'guesstimate', but do consider that effectiveness in the small study above replicates efficacy from trials, there may be more truth than untruth with the estimate. I do find the estimate somewhat optimistic, but am neither a statistician nor fully knowledgeable and qualified to get down to the nitty-gritty with such. It does give me a comfortable level of confidence, that given a bit of time, my supposition, in general, will be supported by the facts.
Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials.BillyB-
Sheesh...you have too much time on your hands - :P But, OK...But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.
This sheds a sad reminder of the current state of political affairs today, and additional past biased acknowledgment of the following events in time: Iraq / Libya / Vietnam / the Balkans destructions; project MKUltra; the suspension / abolition of the writ of habeas corpus, support and promotion of violent protests, etc.
It’s only criminal if one political party is behind it. Now, you can begin adding more to those.
Real world data? Funny. Real world data had been established since this pandemic went global, in which you yourself had used countless times and had always been reliant of its information - even today counting your latest post. It’s just that the information from this *real world data* apparently is nullifying your narrative.
Well BC. I’d at least give you a ‘B’* for effort. You really dug deep in Goggle’s algorithm to come up with Fedson’s ‘abstract’. Unfortunately, the very definition of it should’ve alerted you to carefully consider its content beforehand. Obviously, you didn’t. Within its ‘abstract’ own verbiage, it was clearly telling you that your search for a definitive value of a vaccine *efficiency* is akin to chasing a ghost, for lack of a better term.
There are a multitude of reasons why you will just dive deeper in hypothesis trying to chase this when dealing with viruses. For starters, there will always be a perpetual viral mutation creating variants, so any ‘efficiency’ value of a vaccine becomes useless. The annual influenza proves this point well enough. People still die every year.
To further prove this point (yesterday), the UK just released a report that from Feb 1 – June 21st, over 63% of folks who died of the delta variant had received at least one dose. BUT, while it still maintained there’s benefit of getting (fully) vaccinated, it admits that fully vaccinated people are still dying because of the virus. In their study, it’s largely age-related.
http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671 (http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671)
In short order, you can wait till the cows come home waiting for an efficiency value in this current strain. Fine by me. In the end, this again just reinforced my point in both accounts. The mis / disinformation is not coming from ‘conservatives’ but the from these liberals.
1. The current US administration, and the Democratic party, are very clearly violating US citizens’ civil rights. This needs to stop. To this point, you disagree with me as you’d rather see the country turn to a policed state to ensure we do what you’ve decided to do for yourself, right (?).
2. If this vaccine is as effective as they say it is, approve the darn thing. They cannot.
3. The vaccine’s efficacy rate is not any *better* than the survival rate illustrated prior to its administration.
(* As a side note – this happens more times than not when people heavily rely on Google.)
Actually, no. You may think that, doesn't make it so. This, again, proves what I've been saying all these time. People Google things and all cognitive diligence grinds to a halt.
How about I do this, let us extract information from a source we can agree is ‘good enough’ to use for now instead of having you Google all sorts of sites for this exercise?
Let us use world-o-meter’s since that's the one we can agree is good enough for now.
What the death rate in the US before patient ‘1’ (New York’s Sarah Lindsey), logarithmically, and what it became after the 2 -week period after December 14th of (Dec. 28th) its administration. Fair enough?
We can splice these in any chronological measure: daily, weekly, bi-monthly, monthly (I know you’re very fond of using ‘graphs’, maybe because it’s pretty to look at. I’d rather see *numbers* and I'll show you why).
Impact of the Virus in the US:
~ February 29, 2020 (John Doe 1st casualty) to Present time (a/o this post): Total Cases = 34,849,155. Total Death = 623,870; Recovered: 29,324,356; Survival Rate: 98.18%
Period before vaccine:
~ February 29,2020 to December 28, 2020 (10 months without vaccine): Total cases: 19,963,379
Total Death = 353,705; Recovered: 7,310, 591; Survival Rate: 98.23%
Period after Vaccine:
~ December 28, 2020 to Present Time (A-B): Total Cases = 14,225,776; Total Death = 270,165; Survival Rate = 98.1%
Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?
Digest this a little; and let me know where you believe it’s wrong.
Real world studies
In five countries (Israel, England, Scotland, the United Kingdom, Sweden and the United States of America) researchers have analysed routinely collected data to report the early outcomes of community-wide vaccination programs with three of the first vaccines to reach market – the BNT162b2 mRNA (Pfizer/BioNTech) mRNA-1273 (Moderna) and ChAdOx1 adenoviral vector (Oxford/AstraZeneca) vaccines.5,6,7,8,9
At this time only two of the papers (from Israel and Scotland) have been peer reviewed5,6, so details reported here may change after revisions to the other reports.7,8,9 There is a rapidly growing literature on community impact of COVID-19 vaccines that have provided very consistent evidence of substantial vaccine effectiveness. We think it is unlikely that these findings will be change significantly with future research.
Conclusions
We can draw important conclusions from these non-randomised studies of vaccine effectiveness. Most importantly the currently available COVID-19 vaccines appear to be effective in preventing severe complications and deaths from COVID-19 in adults of all ages.
What I am sure of GQ, is that any government efforts to encourage folks to get vaccinated will have to be within the bounds of our Constitution. I stated that clearly in my previous post. Anything beyond that is purely subjective and speculative. Easy.
I'll share my opinion, and read yours. As in a previous discourse with BillyB, I'd like to drill down to a layer of substance and not dwell on subjective opinions and distractions, aka Deny, Divert, Discredit - that end up as argument rather than discourse.
An abstract is simply a summary. This abstract highlighted the difference between efficacy determined in vaccine trials vs how effective a vaccine is in the 'real world'.
Of course, fully vaccinated folks still die, but less than in the unvaccinated population. If a country reaches 100% vaccination rate, all the people that die will have been vaccinated. I discussed and posted the same article a while back in this thread. UK shows almost 90% have had at least one dose. http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations (http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations)
Thanks for your opinions, GQ. As stated above, any actions on the part of the government is subject to our Constitution and law.
A bit of patience is needed for the bureaucrats to cross the t's and dot the i's. Let it play out. I'm very confident it will be approved fairly soon, but that is my opinion.
Sure, the internet is a mixed bag, one has to research to separate the wheat from the chaff.
As stated in my prior post, worldometers would be great if it broke down deaths with vaccinated and unvaccinated. It doesn't.
What we do have so far in terms of assessments of vaccine effectiveness is summarized well in the article below. You'll just have to learn to be patient for more. I understand you have trust issues, but do note that the article covers a number of countries and studies, some peer reviewed.
http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies (http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies)
To try and determine anything more at this early stage would only be speculative.
Do some deeper diligence and find out....
Already did that. Now for a gag order on you GQ. Everybody in LA county vaccinated or not got to put the mask back on. Think its bad now. Wait till Winter.
Lordy, okay..
I cited efficacy and you bring up 'efficiency'. I said it's hypothetical, then you tell me be patient and cites websites' abstracts which basically comes with: inconclusive statements.
You just used worldometer in your graphs and riposte. So I used and dug deeper on the very information within, and showed you where you're amiss, now it (worldometer) isn't 'good enough'?!?!
Bottom line, we've obviously reduced this to the very point I made on the onset. Vaccine at this time, based on the clinical study done, and information they have on hand at present time, is NOT better than the 98+% survival rate in the US's reported COVID-19 cases.
That's about as *factual* as it is ever gonna get. Far more *factual* than any inconclusive 'abstract' statement you can ever Google, now or in the future - whether you like to acknowledge this or not.
There has NOT been a 100% efficiency in curing any known virus. Not yesterday, not today. Fact. The only way this current virus can better the KNOWN survival rate, is for it to become a *100% efficient*, which it will not and can never be. Like the influenza before it, it perpetually mutates. What it treats today, is basically practically useless tomorrow. That's is the current 'fact' we have today.
If you immunized 100 people, and one survived - that's 1% efficient. 100 survived - 100%. You, along with all the abstracts and site you can ever Google, can never conclude any vaccine can achieve 100% efficiency, at least not as of today - or at any time prior. Feel free waiting...
My statement above, and those before it, are not an opinion.
Criteria for the third classification, which identifies severe COVID-19 cases in clinical trials, includes a confirmed COVID-19 test (per the above guidelines), as well as one of the following symptoms: clinical signs of severe systemic illness, respiratory failure, evidence of shock, significant acute kidney, liver, or brain dysfunction, admission to an ICU, or death.http://health-desk.org/articles/how-does-pfizer-identify-cases-of-covid-19-in-its-clinical-trials
A total of six deaths occurred in the reporting period (2 deaths in the vaccine group, 4 in
placebo). In the vaccine group, one participant with baseline obesity and pre-existing
atherosclerosis died 3 days after Dose 1, and the other participant experienced cardiac arrest
60 days after Dose 2 and died 3 days later. Of the four deaths in the placebo arm, the cause
was unknown for two of them, and the other two participants died from hemorrhagic stroke
(n=1) and myocardial infarction (n=1), respectively; three deaths occurred in the older group
(>55 years of age). All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age
groups where they occurred, at a similar rate.
Phew! Too many 'words'! Numbers however do a much better job simplifying our lives. Too bad not more people rely on them for important information. 1s and 0s....
The evil of virtual age, I guess.
So you can hopefully give Google a rest, (you remind me of BillyB, and a couple of other members here, with you guys' total dependency on Google) it appears based on your Googled sites, the controlled and monitored clinical trials actually yielded a much better survival rate for (unvaccinated) folks compared to current *real World data*!! Literally a full percentage point!!
Wow! How awesome is that!? It really makes you wonder what really drives Democrats to want to turn our republic into a policed state based on what appears to be junk science! Talk about mis / disinformation! Can you just imagine the uproar had the 'other guy' been the one to propose having private companies monitor, interject, listen in and invade the public's personal communication?!? Holy Molly! Who voted for these guys?
Anyway, you did a good job proving them wrong, BC, by your use of Google, you showed us controlled, closely monitored clinical studies even yielded a higher rate of survival!!! And those folks didn't even have to inject experimental soup that even our very own government, and medical administrators alike, cannot, will not, not in your dreams- approve!!
I'm happy I was able to help crunch these numbers out with you..
;D
Bottom line in all of these, I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?
I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?
Last May UK was in full lockdown IIRC.
In addition, testing was still a problem back then.
Trying not to project, but something is noticeably different in the charts this time around.
Government may just rule lockdowns, not vaccines are the trick to beat the virus.
That may be true but testing last month in June was just as abundant as testing this month. The infections from last month to this month are skyrocketing.
Deaths remain low although infections are skyrocketing but why is government silent about giving safe and effective treatments credit? All the attention is on the vaccines when we know for a fact treatments have helped people recover and saved their lives. If safe and effective treatments exist, government must revoke emergency use authorization given to experimental vaccines. We're all going to get the Coronavirus sooner or later and if not vaccinated, let our own immune system beat it.[/font]
I was in the same room as a friend who got COVID and breathe the same air but never got sick and never got any symptoms. He has natural immunity. Maybe I do too. Lots of people have natural immunity but governments around the world want to take away their freedoms if they don't take an experimental vaccine. Governments aren't even offering an antibody test to see if people acquired natural immunity to give them a waiver from having to take an experimental vaccine. Why?
Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques.
I was in my restaurant with a friend. A Georgian man that knew my friend was passing by. He told us his father-in-law was in the hospital. He had taken the vaccine, a blood clot formed and went to his brain and he is in a coma.
I seen the interview of the former Vice President of Pfizer and vaccine researcher. He said all the animals used in testing of the vaccine died in the equivalent of 1 to 2 years of human life. He said the vaccine changes the immune system and warned strongly against using it.
Does he still work at Pfizer, or any other labs now producing vaccines? What substantiation did he provide?
I've posted links and videos of the man numerous times here. Did you read and watch?
Apparently we might be facing another panic buy period at the supermarkets here in the UK as a result of our pingdemic:
"UK facing food shortages as ‘pingdemic’ forces millions into self-isolation – Metro" http://metro.co.uk/2021/07/17/uk-facing-food-shortages-as-pingdemic-causes-staff-absences-14943703/amp/
Luckily I decided to delete my test & trace app just over a week ago now. I don't go out to social stuff and take decent precautions, anti bacterial, masks, etc so should be fine. No point in second guessing a problem I probably don't have I think.
Just this month, professor Satoshi Omura, who won the Nobel Prize (http://nypost.com/2015/10/05/3-win-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-beating-parasitic-diseases/) for his work on a drug called ivermectin, was censored on YouTube for discussing how it might help treat COVID-19 patients.
Did you read and watch?
For the second week in a row, there are more vaccination deaths than COVID deaths in America. Keep in mind, there are much more vaccine deaths than actually reported. This also does not include the short term or permanent damage the vaccines have done to people.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/)
The VAERS database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. The CDC government website links to VAERS platform.
BTW GQ, I think Cyberdemon531 who produced the YouTube video you posted is correct with many of her thoughts.
Did you watch the whole video? I'm quite surprised you posted it.
...I have no issues with health authorities at the state, or federal level doing all they can to provide folks with information to make good choices.
The underlying message however, which she supported a 1000 fold - is, this regime's suppression of freedom of speech is simply inexcusably un-Constitutional (which you fully support), if not downright criminal.
If it's not Constitutional, of course it shouldn't be done. As mentioned above, there will be those who might test it in court and that's ok. It's the way our system works.
It's a given, as I've said before, your stated sentiment is expected by your political leaning. It's predictable.
Social media is a means of communication used by the public at large. You can describe this any way you like, it doesn't change the fact this regime, which is the 3rd branch of our *government*, is CLEARLY abridging the public's freedom of speech.
To instruct cell phone carriers to monitor, intercept and interject communications between persons in text messages, is assigning a private enterprise to *spy* on private communications between individuals.
Sure, I support getting the word out about vaccines and dispelling mis and disinformation about the vaccines.
And exactly how are they abridging speech in a public forum? The EB branch has been asking, even telling private fora what and what not to do for years.
What facts do you base your statement on? What's the factual 'ask' you believe the EB is requesting?
Isn’t Google your best friend?
Hope you’re all stocked up with loo roll as that’s often the other casualty of panic buying and you may find yourself reaching for some bog roll and come up empty handed at a most inopportune moment.
If you want to travel I think you’ll have to have that test trace app installed.
Big brothers here to stay methinks.
Sure, but I'd like to begin where you begin,
not with rumors,
not with odd interpretations of constitutionality,
but with what you believe is the bottom line EB ask of social media companies.
At the point I asked who gets to define dis/mis-information? You? Wouldn't you want the freedom to define things of importance to yourself, and not be force to anything because someone else, even the government, defines it for you?
I provided you a clipped video by the White House's own spokesperson's statement. If you call it a rumor, then you know its source.
Do tell and point to the alleged 'oddity' in this subject. Attempts to suppress, ban, silence, even the mere 'suggestion' to appoint any non-governmental entity to monitor, interject, silence the public's beliefs, opinion, et al because it counters a narrative, IMO, is at least inflammatory, or worse, a violation of civil rights.
See above.
Bottom line, if there's any dis/mis-information swimming around our society, they are emanating from this regime, its party and it's branches. They're the source of confusion. Even the current mask mandate/recommendation currently in my corner of the world - is directly 'counter' to CDC's statement that all vaccinated folks does not have to wear mask. And why should there by a separation between those that have, from those that haven't - since neither is immune from contracting - and spreading, the virus? Even international travel restrictions have conflicting and varying, even confusing, rules.
Hell, this regime ignored illegal passage through our border of untested/unvaccinated of well over hundreds of thousands illegal aliens in our midst. Should I be silenced if I believe this is the reason why there's a 'rise' in the infection rate all of the sudden? Should I be banned for 'blaming' this regime's slow to non-reaction to this event?
This regime wants to see a universal submission to an experimental soup? Then approve its administration. Own up to what it is trying to 'force' the public to submit to. Give the public what it wants. If they can't, then what exactly are they forcing upon the public?
*Absence of evidence* (should) automatically give any/all individual the right to form it's own belief/opinion, and act upon those beliefs/opinion. The public is much too nuanced to try and construct a structured one size fits all mandate, especially when this regime's *own administration/establishment* doesn't really seem to know which end is up themselves. It had shown that it contradicts itself over something they're imposing authority over the masses over and over again.
Regarding masks, there are federal authorities that can only suggest minimum requirements. What does your state say the minimum requirements are? http://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/ (http://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/) Keep in mind these are minimum. I always wear a mask indoors in public buildings and commercial buildings i.e. for shopping, and outside areas where safe distancing cannot be practiced. Why separate for vaccinated / unvaccinated? Doesn't take a rocket scientist for that. Indeed, it can get even more complicated traveling internationally. What EB is proposing was discussed prior. What I don't understand is why balk at all the differences. Each state wanted to handle their own COVID response and requirements, you supported that didn't you? And now you want the federal .gov to make the rules that all have to abide by? Doesn't make logical sense. You can’t eat your cake and have it, too.
Of course, you are entitled to express your opinion in a public forum.
Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated.
It's information. If I ask you how fast I can drive on a particular road, and you tell me 120mph, you gonna take responsibility and pay the ticket?
If you were also ignorant, that's misinformation. If you wanted ill will, or if it would give you a few bucks more in your pocket, or for some form of influence, it would be disinformation.
Again, the federal .gov is trumped by state and local laws and regulations when it comes to imposing health restrictions and requirements. You seem to be barking up the wrong tree, confused or frustrated. The latter I can also relate to, but hey these are challenging times at many levels.
Will the folks who voted for this regime, raise your hands and let it be known.
We had finally arrive to Dystopia, USA; where freedom of speech depends on the approval of the central government and its propaganda media. For those with opposing views to the central government's narrative, you will be universally banned from all social platform today, gulags tomorrow!!! Civil liberty, my arse!
If you think this silliness applies to everyone. Of course not. Don't make the mistake to believe this is NOT a bipartisan move. Who defines dis/misinformation? Of course you know. Otherwise Fauci, CDC, WHO, DNC, etc...would be propped for banning for all the *dis/misinformation* they told all of us from the very beginning of this pandemic!!! Would venues like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC et al going to be *banned*?
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
Too far off the left field. So I've no idea what exactly are you saying I'm balking about. I couldn't care less what Montana is doing in their corner anymore than I'd care what Oregon is doing in theirs. I do care about this regime's attempt to define dis / mis-information on their own and act upon it for those who doesn't agree.
That's central governing IMO.
Thank you. That's what the internet is for FWIW.
Or so I thought. Then discriminating certain societal liberties started to rear it's ugly heads.
Hell, NO! You asked for an honest opinion, I gave it to you. So then you acted upon it, better believe YOU ARE responsible for your own action. If I asked you if this vaccine is OKAY, and you gave me your honest opinion, and it ended up killing me, it doesn't make you responsible for my death now, is it?
You understand the nuance and complexity now?
Wrong. Society at large is composed of individuals that are nuanced and complex. Ask a Muslim who God is and he'll tell you. Doesn't mean he's spreading dis/mis-information simply because you're a jew or christian. Nor did it mean he's ignorant. On the contrary.
If anyone is doing any tree barking, it's you. The very fact YOU have ZERO idea what is actually going on *here* other than what you can gleam on the internet and Google, makes you hardly an 'authority' over someone who actually is living it 'here'.
When it comes to imposing health restrictions, especially where *I am* (where YOU'RE NOT*), I ought to know so much better than you about this subject. CDC proclaimed no mask mandate for the vaccinated, health officials recommends mask mandates indoors for everyone including vaccinated folks. LA County sheriffs office declared they will not enforced such mandate because it is not backed by guidance of the CDC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/17/los-angeles-county-sheriff-will-not-enforce-mask-mandate-saying-it-is-not-backed-by-science/). So Federal, State and local governments, including its law enforcement agencies are in total disagreement and disarray - which one of these idiots is spreading dis / mis-information and who should we ban and silenced?
Heck, should we now silence and ban you since you didn't know and had a mis-informed opinion about it?
Biden declared yesterday Facebook is killing people. Today he said it's not really what he meant. Should he be silenced and banned?
The fact you couldn't tell me who is 'in authority' to define dis/mis-information for all, tells me you don't know either. Should you be banned or silenced, maybe monitor your communications, since absence of evidence is apparent with you?
Bottom line, your desperate deflection of this silly slippery slope this dimwitted regime got itself into is indicative of your denial this regime has ZERO idea what to do and how to properly handle this current situation. You cannot defend the indefensible.
No, right on home plate.
Yep, you can open gqblues.com and do whatever you want with it with a few obvious limitations. You could even ban me for example and I couldn't do anything about that.
Anything illegal or unconstitutional?
Nothing nuanced or complex about that, is there? It's crystal clear, which is the point I was making.
They all worship the same God. What's so nuanced or complex about that?
Again, your opinion is fine, but adds no substance to your line of discourse.
And? It has been in disarray since the virus emerged. Think about it, you again make my point.
Probably best to address this with whom you have issues with, leadership in the state you reside in.
Public forum?
I already addressed this, that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Does take a level head, though.
Interesting, heard the same words about the last regime you fully supported. Good for the goose.....
Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?
Obviously, you either didn't understand, or maybe a bit slow on the uptake. This regime ushering social MEDIA to universally 'ban' people 'it' defines as spreading dis / mis-information.
Get it now?
Yup. Last I know 'discrimination' is illegal.
An expressed honest opinion, even belief should NOT be banned nor silence. I am glad to know you finally understood.
Hhhmmm...apparently not. But *ignorance* is bliss.
Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?
Nope. Current regime is but only 7 months in. Previous administration did not usher social media to ban or silence anyone who sought freedom of expression. If anything, folks like you fully subscribed to *fake news*, remember? You didn't get silenced or banned for biting into the Russia Gate hook line and sinker baby. Amongst other things.
Then why even have an opinion about it then to begin with? But of course, again, you are free to express it regardless of the obvious ignorance.
Yup. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he was?
No you didn't. You may believe you did, bit I wouldn't hold it against you, nor would I want to see you banned or silenced.
Even making things up i.e. dis-information; to prolong your denial should subject you to being banned or silenced. At least according to this regime's definition.
A very objective view about the population's hesitancy about the vaccine. A view this current regime is too dimwitted to understand, much less 'consider'.
>> To counter perceived misinformation, you don't need censorship. You need patient contextualization. Better education. << pp
Sure, as long as this forum tolerates the discussion.
I get your point, but obviously do not agree with it, which is fine. Your word choice is interesting. "Ushering" implies a form of authority, which the administration does not have. They are suggesting social media companies strengthen their stance on mis- and disinformation. Many already take steps to reduce propagation of such, i.e. http://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/false_news (http://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/false_news)
You OTOH imply an exercise of authority that would indeed be contrary to our Constitution. This is a self-made issue you are creating that simply does not exist. IOW, much ado about nothing.
Make sense now?
Discrimination is legal except for:
Race, Color, or National Origin
Gender, Sex, or Sexual Orientation
Religion
Pregnancy or Disability
Age
Genetic Information
The rest is fair game. You're attempting to make my dislike of broccoli illegal.
You are correct, in a public forum.
Open for discussion, but such is not tolerated on this private forum per published posting guidelines.
I could well have been silenced, even here at RWD, as many of those discussions were against forum guidelines.
I have no issue with being silenced or banned from fora that are not public. You, OTOH, do.
The Supreme Court has recognized that the Internet in general, and social media in particular, has become a critical forum for the expression of protected speech. And the federal courts of appeals have held that the government can create public forums on the Internet.
I understand the Constitution fairly well, thus have no issues with goings-on that surround your unfounded objections.Again, you're always entitled to your opinion. Isn't that wonderful knowing you won't be banned or censored upon expressing such; that there're laws that guarantee you the right of free expression? Well, apparently until now...
Hhhmmm.
1. You seem to keep trying to imply anything within the sphere of the internet, especially those (specifically mentioned) social media i.e instagram, twitter, FB, even RWD as venues outside the purview of public domain.
Darn good article regarding this idiocy: http://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/7/21/22587266/president-biden-facebook-vaccine-misinformation-censorship-jacob-sullum
2. Two levels of law against discrimination: Federal and State; California Discrimination Law: Under California law, it is a civil right to have the opportunity to seek and hold employment without discrimination based on a race, religion, sexual orientation, and other forms of unlawful discrimination.
3. God: I didn't realize *Christ*-ian represented the 'father'. When did that happen?
Again, you're always entitled to your opinion. Isn't that wonderful knowing you won't be banned or censored upon expressing such; that there're laws that guarantee you the right of free expression? Well, apparently until now...
The US office of the dimwit ushering social media, and SMS carriers alike, to monitor, ban/censor, intercept communications by the public, etc...who have opposing views or opinions of their own is simply appalling.
And that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Indeed, when someone registers a domain name and opens it for input from the consumer, it is not a public forum, as the domain owner controls it and can apply whatever rules they want, or none, similar to private property. When the government registers a domain name and opens it for comments from the public, it is a public forum, and anyone and everyone can respond however they wish unless it is contrary to law. If a government official opens an account on a private platform allowing responses or comments, they must abide by the rules of the domain owner, BUT they cannot restrict who can and cannot reply (as long as it's not illegal or contrary to the domain owner rules).
http://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739906562/u-s-appeals-court-rules-trump-violated-first-amendment-by-blocking-twitter-follo (http://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739906562/u-s-appeals-court-rules-trump-violated-first-amendment-by-blocking-twitter-follo)
Yes, it is a good article, thanks. I believe courts, if the matter comes before them, will determine that a suggestion or 'ask' is quite different from a lawful order, or exercise of authority. After all, such carries no weight for a private person or biz to act.
Sure, 'other' are likely Pregnancy or Disability, Age and Genetic Information. Know of any others that apply in general, or regard employment only?
As I understand it, expression is simply speech without words. Burning flags and waving Nazi flags comes to mind, either on your own property (which may also be subject to further regulation or codicil), or public space. Such may not be allowed on someone else's property without permission. Has always been that way or? Other limitations exist as well i.e. defamation, true threats or some forms of harmful intimidation.
That's fine, but I think you're drawing your pistol from an emotional standpoint, which may differ if one considers factual contexts as discussed above and in prior posts.
The internet is quite free, gqblues.com is available and waiting for ya for only 99 cents! Exercise your rights to free speech and expression as you wish!
Truly heartbreaking.
(http://i.postimg.cc/43QGnbgc/Screen-Shot-2021-07-22-at-00-12-32.png)
All three vaccines have been given an emergency use authorization (EUA), which FDA offers during crises as a quick way to give people access to potentially lifesaving medicines. In the past, EUAs have typically been used for drugs during “very catastrophic, immediate circumstances, like an anthrax attack,” says Jesse Goodman, a former chief scientist at FDA who’s now at Georgetown University. The COVID-19 pandemic marks the first time EUAs have been granted for new vaccines.When will COVID-19 vaccines be fully approved—and does it matter whether they are?
Why haven’t the vaccines available in the United States been approved yet? When will COVID-19 vaccines be fully approved—and does it matter whether they are?
More importantly however, you keep omitting the fact dimwit's intent was to usher, mark or cause private domain/entities/corporations, etc..(because Constitutionally, government cannot) to universally ban anyone who express opinion 'it' defines as mis / dis-information, and to monitor private text messages between folks so any expressed message opposite to his dimwitted message should be intercepted and be subjected to his 'correction'. You can apply semantics for convenience or deflection, but optic remains the same.
John Hopkins study show ZERO COVID deaths among healthy children. Our medical 'experts' want to put experimental vaccines in their bodies. Crazy! Ex VP of Pfizer said the vaccine kills kids 50-1 over COVID. It's best to let our healthy kids natural immune system handle the virus and gain natural immunity. I wish our government would give people more info so they can make a more informed decision on whether or not to inject an experimental vaccine into their and their kids bodies.
“[If our research] holds, it has significant implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,” Makary says.
Democratic politician tweets today that we need to follow the science and she says everybody needs to put back on the masks. Here's a picture of her unmasked in a plane where 6 fully vaccinated politicians got COVID.
Typically 50 vaccine deaths will get the government to remove it off the market. We're up to 11,000 deaths and today's government continues to promote the product.
While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness.from VAERS webpage http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html
Fauci's hand shaking showing he's nervous about yesterday's Senate hearing. Senator Rand Paul sent a criminal referral to FBI today because Fauci lied about gain of function to the Senate. I don't know why our health experts aren't working hard to find the origins of the virus. It's important to know how it came to be so we can prevent it from happening again.
Fox host says media and social media been covering for Fauci and censoring truth.
No Maxx,
her disease did.
Was it a study or an analysis of data, that may or may not be representative of the whole?
Of course, further review, along with identifying what pool of data used (which seems to indicate those covered by *which?* Healthcare plans) would help.
Obviously, masks are still a good idea, especially in crowded or enclosed spaces.
Again, you misuse VAERS data. Learn how to use the official database and compare with other vaccines, even those required to attend school. It's not that awful hard. Many hundreds, if not thousands of deaths are listed in VAERS for a number of common vaccines.
from VAERS webpage http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html (http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html)
Cute. My hands would probably be shaking as well, sitting in that particular chair.
Opinion.
BC-
I'll submit that sometimes BillyB pushes the envelop much too much on one side. But putting this aside, do you ever wonder too that maybe sometimes, in your perceived notion to represent facts and reality, that maybe are engaging in the same suit you accuse BillyB of sporting?
Let's engage in critical thinking exchange instead of aggressively and immediate denouncement of other people's belief or perception simply because it *seemingly* runs counter to mainstream's current narrative.
None of us have the monopoly to fully know what your government is doing/not doing.
The only truth available to all us today is how sad we still put full faith in the establishments despite knowing, especially in this VERY recent years, that our institutions, politicians, along with the mainstream media - have openly, bare-faced and blatantly LIED to all of us these past few years.
The lab leak theory in itself have proven this point so far even if any of the investigation proved this to be eventually *wrong*. How will we ever really know?
Looks like the EU are headed for financial trouble:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1466328/eurozone-news-eu-public-debt-economy-gdp-euro-european-union-ECB (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1466328/eurozone-news-eu-public-debt-economy-gdp-euro-european-union-ECB)
Debt way above 100 GDP in most of the EU countries with the exception of Germany. Here in the UK its just below 100 percent GDP, around 97 percent if I recall correctly.
Italy debt is now around 160 percent of GDP so they could have problems paying it off and could end up defaulting on their debt. Greece's debt is now 209 percent of GDP so a again could risk defaulting on their debt and a second Greek Crises.
The EU as a whole the debt to GDP has reached around 92 percent of GDP so their potential to take on any more debt to sort out the economic problems is likely to be fairly limited now.
So it's looking like the Coronavirus's economic fallout is going to hit some countries hard. Given the EU's previous track record at handling or rather perhaps not handling crises it's probably best the UK is clear of it.
I would expect full approval sometime around the end of the year.
BC-
I'll submit that sometimes BillyB pushes the envelop much too much on one side. But putting this aside, do you ever wonder too that maybe sometimes, in your perceived notion to represent facts and reality, that maybe are engaging in the same suit you accuse BillyB of sporting?
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26909
It'll still be the most deadliest and harmful vaccine in history the government allowed people to take.
Without what I posted, who here would've known the vaccines could compromise our immune systems leading to early death?
Who would've known about the fine print in FDA and vaccine manufacture documents that significant benefits and risks are unknown?
Who here would've known the scientific community and peer review journals pertaining to the virus was influenced by government money and had to support government narrative?
Who here would've known that your own immunity system could handle the virus and it's variants easily unlike vaccines that are specialized to handle specific viruses but not its variants which translates to an ongoing need of specialize vaccines?
Who here would've known that the vaccines themselves are responsible for creating all these variants which in turn creates a need for more vaccines? [/size]
BillyB,
You are presenting your opinion as fact, and that is where you err, and basis for my objections.
Are the quoted statements above your opinion, or are you presenting them as facts?
Everything we know comes from another man. It's how we put things together that make the men we are. What I've learn are from leaders and pioneers of vaccines. You wonder why I post so many links? I want people to know what I'm saying is not an opinion. Everything I said in my last post I learned from experts in vaccines that have sounded the alarm. They stated facts and because I didn't offer links to the the statements I made in my last post, you call them opinions. I will continue to present links here so people can educate themselves. They don't have to take my word for anything. It only takes me a couple of seconds to cut and paste anyway which saves me time from having to explain their whole interview.
I know some people don't like to hear something they don't agree with but aren't you tired of the continuous everyday commercials of athletes, movie stars, youtube quality doctors and politicians telling you the experimental vaccine is safe and effective and to do your part? Did you notice their commercials don't talk about side effects and risks that are mandatory for all approved medicines and vaccines? We don't want to scare people causing vaccine hesitancy, do we? The COVID vaccines get a pass and you can't sue if it causes harm or death. They lack confidence in the product.
It'll still be the most deadliest and harmful vaccine in history the government allowed people to take.
Without what I posted, who here would've known the vaccines could compromise our immune systems leading to early death?
Who would've known about the fine print in FDA and vaccine manufacture documents that significant benefits and risks are unknown?
Who here would've known the scientific community and peer review journals pertaining to the virus was influenced by government money and had to support government narrative?
Who here would've known that your own immunity system could handle the virus and it's variants easily unlike vaccines that are specialized to handle specific viruses but not its variants which translates to an ongoing need of specialize vaccines?
Who here would've known that the vaccines themselves are responsible for creating all these variants which in turn creates a need for more vaccines?
159 fully vaccinated people in Illinois dead and 593 hospitalized.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/159-dead-593-hospitalized-in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/
That figure equates to 2.3% of COVID-19 deaths in the state since Jan. 1, officials said.
Fauci surprised at steep decline of efficacy of Pfizer vaccine based on Israeli data
http://t.me/disclosetv/3588
Israel says vaccine now just 39% effective against infection.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-signals-on-vaccines-potency-against-delta-strain/
Israel’s research agreed, at least, that the shot was highly effective in avoiding serious illness, at 91.4% effectiveness.
FDA and NIH employees had first crack at getting vaccinated and only 50-60% chose to do so.
http://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/1000
CDC says 85% of new cases in America are Delta variant.
http://t.me/realx22report/3072
Vaccinated people in Singapore make up 75% of infections.
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/vaccinated-people-singapore-three-quarters-071043455.html?guccounter=1
Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 million people, the world's second highest after the United Arab Emirates
There were only seven severe cases requiring oxygen support and six of them were unvaccinated and one was partially vaccinated, the health ministry said.
"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding all of the fully vaccinated and infected people showed no symptoms or mild symptoms.
Remember what those experts said, Experimental vaccines can compromise healthy immune systems making people more likely to get infected by any pathogen which in turn can lead to decreased lifespan. Also vaccinated people aren't immune from being infected so the vaccine can learn how to defeat the vaccine by creating more variants. Vaccinated people become breeding grounds to give birth to new variants. It's unthinkable to vaccinate a healthy population during a pandemic. It could be a colossal blunder on humanity leading to depopulation.
Did you guys notice governments and health organizations aren't telling us how many people acquired natural immunity and how successful their immune system is against the variants? They aren't even offering a test to give those people a pass from the vaccine or offering them a vaccine passport although they have natural immunity. They seem to want to force people to take a vaccine even if they've beaten COVID earlier.
The Digital Green Certificate will contain necessary key information such as name, date of birth, the issuing Member State and a unique identifier of the certificate. In addition:http://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_21_1187
For a vaccination certificate: vaccine product and manufacturer, number of doses, date of vaccination;
For a test certificate: type of test, date and time of test, test centre and result;
For a recovery certificate: date of positive test result, issuer of certificate, date of issuance, validity date.
175 towns in France and cities around the world had massive protests against vaccine passports. I didn't see anybody wearing a mask or social distance. People are tired of the government using the pandemic to create bigger government and more control.
Some 160,000 people, including far-right activists and members of France's yellow vest movement, protested Saturday across the country against a bill requiring everyone to have a special virus pass to enter restaurants and mandating COVID-19 vaccinations for all health care workers.
Similar protests were held in neighboring Italy.
"That figure equates to 2.3% of COVID-19 deaths in the state since Jan. 1, officials said."
Meaning 97.7% of deaths, or 6754 deaths were unvaccinated or partially unvaccinated.
The vaccine is working great in Illinois, doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing.
That is really, really, good news for Singapore! Shows that getting above 70% vaccinated is an important milestone that saves many lives.
Thanks for the uplifting news BillyB! All positive reports showing that the vaccine is effective, even for the Delta variant.
BC's tricky math. Not many people were fully vaccinated Jan 1. Article said 8 fully vaccinated people died last week. Only a handful of people die from COVID everyday in Illinois last week. Some of those people that died with COVID were fully and partially vaccinated. Now do the math. Also, there are 60 times more adverse events than deaths from vaccines. While a vaccinated person may survive COVID, they may get the next variant and die while a person who beat COVID with their own immunity system doesn't have to worry about variants or worry years from now about getting a compromised immune system from an experimental vaccine.
I'm glad you are thrilled! When people were given the vaccines, they were told they won't get COVID. Maybe 5% of the people will get COVID. 75% of those who are currently infected in Singapore are vaccinated yet you spin it into good news. People were lied to about efficacy rates but hey! Lying helps sell vaccines. The very bad news is the virus is allowed to co-exist with the vaccines in people's bodies eventually creating variants that learn how to defeat vaccines and defeat vaccinated people.
I can see why some people believe this virus was deliberately created and let loose.
BC, you are thrilled or pretending to be thrilled about the results of COVID vaccines. Even Fauci was alarmed at the amount of infections in Israel considering they have the highest percentage of vaccinated population among major nations.
Let me tell you about a vaccine that gets me thrilled, It was used on another "Virus of the century". The smallpox vaccine has a 95% efficacy rate and it eradicated smallpox in America by 1972. Now if people were told their vaccinated child was still going to get infected by smallpox like COVID vaccines, do you think parents would inject that product into their kids? 75% of the COVID infected people in Singapore are fully vaccinated. That is alarming but you are thrilled with the results.
http://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html
Here's another conspiracy theory involving China. The Delta variant came out of India and the Lambda variant came out of Chile. Both nations use China's Sinovac vaccine. It's possible that vaccine is most responsible for creating variants that are anti vaccine keeping the world's population sick from COVID. Doctor mentions that in the video. Doctor also says CDC stopped counting COVID infections in May which gives the impression the only infection in America are happening to the unvaccinated. Watch how the mockingbird media plays it. He says half the cases are vaccine failures. Those are sad numbers today and years from now, we may also learn of additional damage the vaccines caused to human bodies.
http://rumble.com/vk8awz-about-half-the-cases-are-vaccine-failures.html
CDC is ending the use of PCR tests because of too many false positives. The test can't tell the difference between SARs-COV-2 and influenza viruses. The creator of PCR tests was banned on Youtube for putting out 'misinformation'. Turns out he knew what he was talking about. Duh. This is the test our medical experts used that helped create initial PANIC last year. Now we are vaccinating healthy people and we got vaccines that are creating more mutant viruses. There will be no end to this. Experts 100 years from now are going to look back at this time and wonder why we got so many idiots in the medical and scientific communities.
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27332
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27333
First, congratulations on your anniversary!
Second, why do you call the vaccine "poison"? There is nothing in it that you don't either already have in your body, or consume in foods.
If you want to fly--comply. get your vacs at your trusted pharmacy..
An infected person can spread COVID-19 starting 2 days before the person has any symptoms or tests positive. People who have COVID-19 don’t always have obvious symptoms.
Likely he did because it is poison. Just curious, what foods do you eat that contain Graphene nano particles?