My view of the war

[ghost of moon goddess]

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

They are not cynics,  they all believe their own propaganda. That is what makes them even scarier 

[lordtiberius]

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.

Its good you want to throw out Legal arguments because legally any of the Soviet Socialist respublics could leave at anytime and they never did.  Hmm, why?

[Muzh]

Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers  credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that  rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now  denounced Russia for intervention  into Ukrainian civil war. 
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.

You are missing the point. The US is the only superpower here. Russia has descended perilously into the realm of third world. They still think they can dictate to the US terms as they used to do back in the Soyuz days. The unfortunate fact is that Russia is being seen as another North Korea; a dangerous unstable country with nukes whose population is unable to make any significant changes.

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.

Bullshevik. What you are seeing is the result of the Russification of another country. There are plenty of people in eastern Ukraine that, even though their parents came from Russia during the Soviet dictators' Russification campaign, they consider themselves Ukrainians above all and that scares Putler to no avail. People showing their own free will. I know it may be difficult for you to understand but stay with me for a while.

Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

More bullshevism. Just because a group can be very loud doesn't make them a majority. It also help that this loud group has the thugs and the weapons.

Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US  have gained  independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.

Absolutely. However, those who tried to do it you call them Fascist Junta because you were told to do so. If you are so convinced that the majority in east Ukraine want to join Russia, why not let the people have an honest referendum? You know a legal process that bars intimidation by arms, thugs or threats of nuclear annihilation?


Bottom line, and I'm pretty sure you know it, is that Putler is afraid this movement will spread to Russia, and then where the hell will he run to?

[Boethius]

Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers  credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that  rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now  denounced Russia for intervention  into Ukrainian civil war. 
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US  have gained  independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.

FTR, I was against NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, and the war in Iraq.  I believe the US had the right to enter Afghanistan to find al Qaeda terrorists sheltered by the Taliban.


Although there are ethnic Russians in the Donbas, they are not the majority population.  The majority populations in both Donetsk and Luhansk self identify as ethnic Ukrainians, not ethnic Russians.  Therefore, Russia's "right" to cause war there, if ever justified, is not on the basis of protecting the rights of the majority population of the region.

[missAmeno]

Считаем груз 200 после уже озвученных 2000 погибших:
300 убитых в Победе, 47 расстрелянных при выходе из Иловайска, 120 погибших из сводной колоны 1200 бойцов Снежное (470 раненых), 70 погибших псковских десантников (10 остались живы), 230 погибших колона на марше под артобстрелом, 60 вырезал батальон Кавказ - полностью артдивизион, 59 тел в могиле под Новоазовском, примерно 40 тел сбросили в шахту. Всего 926 погибших. И это только то, что подтверждено из разных источников. А сколько ещё раненых не довезли и не спасли?
Матери и жены!!! В этой цифре может быть и ваш сын-муж. Хватит уже молчать!!
Да, забыла в шахту у Краснокаменска сбросили почти 600 тел..... Считайте, блин

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10201820740795328&id=1686617069


Translation:

Counting load 200 already after known 2,000 dead:
300 dead at Pobeda, 47 shot at the exit of Ilovaysk, 120 dead from the combined column, 1200 fighters at Snezhnoe (470 wounded), 70 dead Pskov paratroopers (10 survived), 230 died in the colony on the march under the shelling, 60 slaughtered by battalion Caucasus - all artillery battalion, 59 bodies in a grave under Novoazovskiy, about 40 bodies dumped in the mine. Total 926 victims. And that's just what is confirmed from multiple sources. And how many more wounded did not reach [meaning hospitals] and were not saved?
Mothers and wives !!! In this figure could be your son/husband. Enough already be silent !!

Oh, I forgot in the mine at Krasnokamensk have been dropped nearly 600 bodies ..... Count, damn it

[missAmeno]

Add to the count another 300


In the village Pobeda, Donetsk region, Russian aircraft destroyed the camp, in which there were 300 prisoners of war from Russia. It happened on the incorrect tip, Russian troops have assumed that in the camp were Ukrainian military hospital and headquarters.

[Photo Guy]

'Repression of Russian-speakers' in Ukraine. An absurd pretext for invasion.
The concept of the establishment of 'New Russia'.
These two points show the mindset of Putin. He's diabolical. Both of those concepts have led to Putin's support of the pro-russian rebels, all of the bloodshed.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers  credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that  rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now  denounced Russia for intervention  into Ukrainian civil war. 
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US  have gained  independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.

Belvis, I truly believe the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not want to split the country.  There may be a divide in what direction they feel is right, but splitting up isn't in the cards.  I also suspect that divide is less and less as Russia continues with their covert or not so convert actions. 


It's easy for many to say Ukrainians messed up their own country.   I can only look at our country and it sure feels like, we the people, don't have control at all.  We gave it up and who knows how we get control back.  It may lead to another bloody civil war.
 

Now, I originally saw the Ukraine conflict as more of a civil war.  I don't anymore since more and more Russian soldiers are being sent back in coffins.  This is obviously not propaganda, but truth. 



The main facts is it should be up to Ukrainians to fix Ukraine.  Same with Americans needing to fix America.  Russia, US and other countries shouldn't be a part of the mix. Unfortunately, Ukraine is in the middle of a proxy war.  As far as I'm concerned, it isn't even about Ukraine.

[missAmeno]

[lordtiberius]

http://vk.com/doc1498241_326490865?hash=90f94a3ecaac2dcf88&dl=cba67807d6687d3871

[Faux Pas]

Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers  credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that  rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now  denounced Russia for intervention  into Ukrainian civil war. 
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.

Moral authority, really Belvis? There's a bevy of history in both the US and Russia that neither can debate from that perch. Much less Russia in this situation. Leave that one alone.

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.

There are a number of inconvenient truths in your posts I'm sure you would prefer the world turns a blind eye to. It is a manufactured conflict Belvis. Manufactured by Putin. It's false flag. So what if 10,000  or 50,000 disgruntled ethic Russians wanted a country of their own or to be annexed by Russia. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with internationally respected borders. The disgruntled separatist were not in any danger. Putin was in danger of losing his influence over Ukraine. You're not stupid Belvis. It's no coincidence that the annexation of Crimea and the terrorists operations in Eastern Ukraine came on the heel of Ukraine kicking their president to the curb. The president who took his orders from the Kremlin.

Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

Russia has no fundamental right whatsoever to interfere in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population or anyone else. They were/are not in danger and never were until Putin fomented this war. Their Russian identity was/is completely safe from the government in UA or from the population. The rebels just as all Ukrainians need to respect the constitution of Ukraine and change what they don't like at the ballot box. There are no acceptable negotiations on their behalf or from Putin. The rebels need to adhere to the law of the land or leave. There are no special laws for them because they are ethic Russian.

Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US  have gained  independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.

It's not self disintegration, it's invasion and the invader is Russia. Ukraine has already fought that violent struggle. Living under the boot of the USSR was quite enough

[missAmeno]

Fellow countrymen met the deceased soldier on knees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg

[calmissile]

Fellow countrymen met the deceased soldier on knees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg

Very touching video.  Thank you for posting it.

[Anotherkiwi]

A good explanation of the mindset of the region -


http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/118865

Superbly written - and, unfortunately, could well be totally ignored by those who have any say in the matter and need to be responsible for the clean-up.

[GQBlues]

...Therefore, your understanding is still flawed.

Boethius-

I understood it just fine and no, it isn't flawed.

You always fall in this narrative that I either don't understand Ukraine's history to make any sensible observation of this conflict, or simply because I don't speak Ukrainian. First you tell me Ukraine is not a republic. I proved you wrong. Then, and contrary to your initial admission, that the ousting of the president was within Ukraine's constitutional script and is legal. You are also wrong.

Unless you're trying to call red the new black, nothing in this latest debate rendered what I've been saying as erroneous. Not based on Poroshenko's interview context. Not based on those link I provided to you. Certainly not based on the reaction, not only from Russia, but from OSCE and neighboring European countries as well.

We are not talking about the historical dynamics of Ukraine's language challenges. It has zero to do with this current discussion. What we were talking about is the Parliament's February 2014 adoption of a bill repealing/abolishing the 2012 language law, which was deemed not only by Poroshenko, but by the interim president, the Hungarian/Bulgarian/Romanian/Polish/Russian states, by the OSCE and those of Ukraine's minority group who were aware of the Parliament's action last February; to be a mistake.

Even Tymoshenko, the staunch *pro-west* political head voiced her support to the 2012 Language law.

You also keep bringing and labelling anything Yanukovich to continue with your narrative of assigning everything wrong in Ukraine today to him, including this particular law. You're wrong there, too I'm sorry to say.

A synopsis:

Implementation

The bill was to come into force only after it was signed by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and the Chairman of Parliament. But the Chairman of Parliament Volodymyr Lytvyn tendered his resignation on 4 July 2012. However, the Verkhovna Rada twice held votes of confidence in the speaker, and did not accept his resignation. On 31 July Lytvyn signed the law. The bill was signed by President Yanukovych on 8 August 2012. The law came into force on 10 August 2012.

Since then various Ukrainian cities and regions have declared Russian a regional language in their jurisdictions, these being the municipalities of Odessa, Kharkiv, Kherson, Mykolaiv, Zaporizhia, Sevastopol, Dnipropetrovsk, Luhansk and Krasny Luch; and the Oblasts of Odessa, Zaporizhia, Donetsk, Kherson, Mykolaiv and Dnipropetrovsk. Hungarian has been made a regional language in the town of Berehove in Zakarpattia Oblast, Moldovan in the village of Tarasivtsi (Chernivtsi Oblast), and Romanian in the village of Bila Tserkva; also in Zakarpattia Oblast. These languages will now be used in city/Oblast administrative office work and documents. As of September 2012 there were no plans for such bilingualism in Kiev.

Chairmen of the Supreme Council of Crimea Volodomyr Konstantinov stated in March 2013 that the August 2012 law had changed nothing in Crimea.

Proposals for Repeal and Revision

On February 23, 2014, the second day after the flight of Viktor Yanukovich, while in a parliamentary session, a deputy from the "Batkivshchina" party, Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, moved to include in the agenda a bill to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy". The motion was carried with 86% of the votes in favor--232 deputies in favor vs 37 opposed against the required minimum of 226 of 334 votes. The bill was included in the agenda, immediately put to a vote with no debate and approved with the same 232 voting in favor.

The bill would have made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.

The attempt to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy" was met with great disdain in Crimea and Southern and Eastern Ukraine, provoking waves of protests against the Maidan installed government ultimately culminating with the Crimean crisis.

Passage of the repeal bill was met with regret by the Secretary-General of the Council of Europe. The OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities expressed concern over possible further unrest. The bill was also criticized by the Ambassador for Human Rights of the Russian foreign ministry. Bulgarian and Romanian foreign ministers evaluated it as a step in the wrong direction, and the Greek foreign minister expressed disappointment.  The Hungarian foreign ministry expressed serious concerns, noting that the decision "could question the commitment of the new Ukrainian administration towards democracy". The Polish foreign minister called it a mistake.

After urgently ordering a working group to draft a replacement law on February 27, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the repeal bill on 28 February.

On 7 April 2014 former BYuT leader Yulia Tymoshenko stated she supported the 2012 language law.

I can understand your aversion to anything Russian/Soviet due to your first hand experience and knowledge of it from Ukraine's lenses. I can accept your reluctance to accept any responsibility and culpability on the part of Ukraine for many of the ills it has suffered through, and is suffering upon today. I can even understand and accept your refusal to answer my previous questions dealing with this particular subject as I presume it sheds a little darker light on Ukraine's present position.

I would've also understood the Parliament's actions to *amend* this law instead of solely repealing it for the sake of establishing Ukrainian as the state language but not eliminate bilingualism in the affected regions.

What I will NOT understand and accept is you trying to tell me red is black.

[Anotherkiwi]

Belvis, I truly believe the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not want to split the country.  There may be a divide in what direction they feel is right, but splitting up isn't in the cards.  I also suspect that divide is less and less as Russia continues with their covert or not so convert actions...

...The main facts is it should be up to Ukrainians to fix Ukraine.  Same with Americans needing to fix America.  Russia, US and other countries shouldn't be a part of the mix. Unfortunately, Ukraine is in the middle of a proxy war.  As far as I'm concerned, it isn't even about Ukraine.

Unfortunately, LFU, Russians in general (those who only have access to their own media, and I don't include Belvis in their number) are (or seem to be) totally unaware of what is REALLY happening in Ukraine.  Put aside all the stories of atrocities from both sides, and what do we have?  A country trying to make its own way in the world, towards more freedom and less corruption, being smothered by its giant neighbour which doesn't want this to happen because it would mean that the giant has lost its influence.  The giant also wants to make it clear to the rest of the world that it won't let any of its remaining sphere of influence shrink or disappear.

Most of the world agrees with what I've bolded above - it would be really nice if Russia would take note.  Of course, they won't, and this conflict will continue.

[calmissile]

Superbly written - and, unfortunately, could well be totally ignored by those who have any say in the matter and need to be responsible for the clean-up.

Agree, good article.  The only question that comes to my mind is why the Pro-Russians in Donbass blame the current administration in Keiv.  It was the previous administrations (puppets of the Kremlin) that did nothing for them.  You would think that they would see change as a possible opportunity.  They already know what it was like under Yanukovich.

[lordtiberius]

Fellow countrymen met the deceased soldier on knees

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg

Watch this video and you will understand even in a contest of nuclear weapons where Russia has 1500 and Ukraine has none, Ukraine will win.  Wars are spiritual contests.  Ukraine will win

[Belvis]

Although there are ethnic Russians in the Donbas, they are not the majority population.  The majority populations in both Donetsk and Luhansk self identify as ethnic Ukrainians, not ethnic Russians.  Therefore, Russia's "right" to cause war there, if ever justified, is not on the basis of protecting the rights of the majority population of the region.

One should not fall in а mistake considering the conflict as ethnic. Yes, there is some ethnic component but I think the political reasons prevail. People divide over their history, heroes, culture, future of the country, political direction. Ukrainian army at Donbass speaks in Russian with many officers of russian background. There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera. Nobody has the right to cause wars and bomb cities and towns only because their inhabitants do not support Kiev.
Russian and Ukrainian are not definition of ethnos in today Ukraine but rather political position.

Belvis, I truly believe the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not want to split the country.  There may be a divide in what direction they feel is right, but splitting up isn't in the cards.  I also suspect that divide is less and less as Russia continues with their covert or not so convert actions. 

Ukrainian citizens did not want to split the country when conflict has started. Donbass people would not revolt if their views on country direction were taken into account by victorious party in Kiev. After civil war started all cards off the table, new reality is forming.

The rebels need to adhere to the law of the land or leave. There are no special laws for them because they are ethic Russian.

Fine. Go at Donbass and convince these people they have to leave because they're breaking Ukrainian laws.

[lordtiberius]

@sumeshs98978319 @lordtiberius I voted for other man on that event which still named "elections

[Stirlitz]

Stirlitz, MissAmeno, Doll or anyone actually in or from the region, 

what are your thoughts on the ceasefire and EU's decision to delay the AA?

I don’t know. I guess it is important to exchange prisoners. Putin had to cease fire because too many Russians were dying and people started to be slightly unhappy. So far only the relatives of the dead but it may get worse. Ukraine has to prepare for a worse war than before because now we face the pure Russian army not diluted with some local drunkards who know better how to flee (like they did from Slavyansk) and rob armless people rather than fight.

The Ukrainians on this forum (missA, Stirlitz, ghost of moon goddess) all speak Russian fluently.  I would hazard a guess they speak it in their daily lives.  Stirlitz lives in a city where almost no one uses Ukrainian in his/her daily life.  Ask him how "oppressed" he has felt, linguistically, since the collapse of the USSR.

I have been cruelly oppressed. Three times total since 1991. The first oppression came when I was in Lvov. They did not demand that I talk Ukrainian but they asked me why I did not. That was a very provocative and insulting question, wasn’t that? Imagine: I am a Ukrainian national in a Ukrainian city and they ask me why I don’t speak Ukrainian... Terrible oppression. But the worst oppression was when I studied at Odessa University. The professor asked me to procure some chalk for the blackboard. I went downstairs to the janitor who was in charge of it and asked for some. She demanded that I ask her again in Ukrainian or else I would get no chalk!!! I complained to the dean about that. But it did not take too long to be oppressed again. In just 6 years I was walking around the streets of Kiev and asked an old woman for the way. She also demanded that I do it in Ukrainian! And, I was even more oppressed as my girlfriend supported her. Terrible humiliation. So, I still feel pain from those oppressions and may see a shrink about it. Real Nazis, aren’t they? Oh, and something else I forgot to mention. When I send anything to the authorities (in Russian of couse) they nearly always answer me in Ukrainian. So I have to read it. That is even worse than oppression. A concentration camp, indeed.

Russia has a very powerful military in addition to nukes....

Are you kidding? Do you mean the army that had a very hard time beating rebels in Chechnya? A country with about one million people? Give me a break. If they had a very powerful military, all of Ukraine would have been occupied in the spring.

Donbass people would not revolt if their views on country direction were taken into account by victorious party in Kiev.

It is notable that Ukraine has 25 regions but only three of them (Donetsk, Lugansk, the Crimea) think they are exceptional and have special views that must be taken into account otherwise they will revolt and kill people. Why doesn’t Jitomir revolt? Why is it quiet in Kirovograd? Are they inferior to Donbass? The only feature of Donbass is that the thief president comes from it. Ukraine HAD been hearing the voice of Donbass for too long while this bastard and his henchmen were at power robbing the entire country! I guess that’s about enough to listen to Donbass, they said volumes. Let’s listen to the other 22 regions instead.

Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions.

Aren’t you tired of repeating the same silly propaganda over and over again? You will need to go the surgeon to do some plastic on your nose which is obviously too long by now. Nobody makes them share the ambitions, and it was not them who decided, it was decided in the Kremlin. There have been no repressions. Can you name at least one person who was executed by the Ukrainian authorities or sentenced to long prison terms for separatism and treason? In fact, such criminals even if detained are at large in a few weeks or months. Our government is very mild in fact. Compare the two videos:



This is Odessa yesterday. Pro-Russians are very aggressive and violent, attacking the police. Can you see the police beating or detaining them?



Moscow two weeks ago. The people do not attack the police. They just protest against the war by holding a sign. Can you see the difference? Now think what would have happened to the above idiots if they had been in Russia.

Here in Russia people in social networks are making fun of the number of dead Russian soldiers

There is a good place for you to make fun: www.mamasoldata.org. You can even get in touch with the mothers and laugh at them. Tell them: you are so funny! You raised a child who was killed in Ukraine for nothing, and our government does not even admit that! You are the mother of a nameless body buried as Soldier No.9 somewhere in Donbass. Ha-ha-ha!

There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera.

The real cult of Bandera exists in Russia. In Ukraine we don’t talk too much about him, it is always the Russians or pro-Russians who start this silly rant about Bandera (while they don’t even know who he actually was and what he did, for example, the fact that he was a prisoner in a Nazi concetration camp is not known to them — how can you be a Nazi and suffer exactly from them along with the communists). Many Russians don’t even know his real name and confuse him to Ostap Bender or think he came from the town of Bendery (and they don’t realize it is Moldova). Making a mountain out of a molehill requires a talent. Goebbels cannot compare to them. How about Gen Vlasov? We are too lazy to troll the Russians but we might as well mark all Russians as Vlasovtsy just because their country has the flag that Gen Vlasov’s army used in WWII when fighting the Soviet Army (which had the red flag). Judging from the current Russian flag it is obvious to me who eventually won.

[Shadow]

Unfortunately, LFU, Russians in general (those who only have access to their own media, and I don't include Belvis in their number) are (or seem to be) totally unaware of what is REALLY happening in Ukraine.  Put aside all the stories of atrocities from both sides, and what do we have?  A country trying to make its own way in the world, towards more freedom and less corruption, being smothered by its giant neighbour which doesn't want this to happen because it would mean that the giant has lost its influence.  The giant also wants to make it clear to the rest of the world that it won't let any of its remaining sphere of influence shrink or disappear.

Most of the world agrees with what I've bolded above - it would be really nice if Russia would take note.  Of course, they won't, and this conflict will continue.

Unfortunately you can replace Russia with EU and not change one word of the meaning.

[Anotherkiwi]

Unfortunately you can replace Russia with EU and not change one word of the meaning.

You can, because each member of the EU still retains its sovereignty - none of them have invaded any other (not recently, anyway), and they're all smaller than Ukraine.

[Anotherkiwi]

One should not fall in а mistake considering the conflict as ethnic. Yes, there is some ethnic component but I think the political reasons prevail. People divide over their history, heroes, culture, future of the country, political direction. Ukrainian army at Donbass speaks in Russian with many officers of russian background. There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera. Nobody has the right to cause wars and bomb cities and towns only because their inhabitants do not support Kiev Moscow.

There - fixed it for you!

[Shadow]

You can, because each member of the EU still retains its sovereignty - none of them have invaded any other (not recently, anyway), and they're all smaller than Ukraine.

You are ill informed about the EU treaties.