Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: Photo Guy on May 26, 2005, 04:43:37 PM
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I wrote:
Leslie,
That was an excellent post from 3 years ago about VM and VO. Many of us were not here exploring that territory at that time.
Elena of Elena's Models promotes the idea of visiting one woman
and says the success rate is higher than visiting many women.
What do other agency operators think works better?
Something I like about the VO strategy is that focusing on one woman
definitely has a seductive effect on her, like an aphrodisiac. If you are
sincerely excited and focused on one woman, she will feel special.
With this approach the process begins with that aura.
If you're dating many women in a short time span, many women will
feel the opposite way - like they are NOT considered a strong choice or like a special woman/marriage material. There's the argument that you shouldn't want a woman who falls apart under that kind of competitive pressure. The argument says a woman who needs to feel 'special' immediately is an inferior female specimen, not worthy of any feelings of regret. You can say this phase is just 'dating' and a woman should not feel insecure about being part of a Visit Many process. From the women I
have known, I have concluded that their insecurity about that process is not a severely deficient quality. In fact, I think it's pretty normal and common-place for fantastic women to feel that the process is demeaning to them. If your typical mainstream woman feels humiliated by the process of dating where she is rapidly followed and preceeded by other candidates,
then it is very possible that the guy would be left with only desperate women who feel humiliation is acceptable, -right? The argument that women should not feel humiliated or UN-special, ignores the reality that a
large percentage of high-quality women do feel this way. Here in the US, it's easy to avoid the subject in the beginning phase of dating. You just don't tell them what you are doing next Saturday night, but you are available on Friday. You can't avoid the subject through omission in a small fish bowl like Ukraine where the women know where you are looking, -at other women. I think Kevin/Goombah is right about this.
I'm adding:
Now I've seen very emotional responses to my opinions and I'll ask you to not to become too emotional. Hey, it's a free country or rather a free internet. I'll express my opinions and take them or leave them. Over the years I've seen how AW women repond to myself and guys who date a multitude of women. They don't respond well at ANY stage of the dating process. If course, if they aren't interested in continuing dating, then it is true that they won't care about the fact that you are dating a bunch of other women. The more they care about you, the more passionate their anger will be, and that anger can cause her to (irrationally) reject you, which seems rather extreme, but that's how women are. May women like to be dominated, but if it takes on an aura of disrespect, the relationship can easily become doomed.
It can be difficult to say, 'Yes I like you very much and you may be the ONE for me, but tomorrow I'll be busy meeting 'W' and I hear she is supposed to be very nice. I'll let you know how it goes, ..or actually it's none of your business because hell sweet-thing, we are JUST dating!'
!!I'd like to hear the opinions of successful couples and agency owners
on this HOT topic. :) Doug
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I'm not sure if I fit the profile of the typical person on this site who goes to the FSU. I have really wanted to go to Russia since I was 14. Last year, I had an opportunity to go but none of my friends had any interest. Thus, I hit on a creative idea since I was single at the time. Why not place an ad to see if I could meet someone while touring Russia? Thus, I wasn't going to meet a potential wife, but rather, I was going to meet a potential friend...with potential. Thus, the person that I decided to meet was someone that I thought would be fun to explore a new city with and potentially travel around a country with. I'm really not sure what I would have done if Kate and I hadn't liked each other as well as we did. I've traveled enough where I'm more than happy to do little to no advanced planning prior to the plane trip. For me, I travel to relax. Reading some of the WMVM trips sounds anything but relaxing, and I was going primarily to relax.
I guess if I were to visit the FSU with the primary goal of meeting someone then I would adopt a hyrid approach. I would visit one but know of a couple of good agencies if things went south.
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Doug,
I see more than a couple of holes in your opinions and comments here, but let's start with two:
#1- You cannot compare "rules" used in dating AM to dating RW. The two worlds are complete opposite. Our American society has really screwed this one up totally. We are convinced by feminist BS and the American media that women are superior to men. Watch any popular comedy show on TV and I can tell you that the husband and most of the male characters are weak minded dolts being led around by a "down to earth" logical minded wife (or woman). Even the commercials on our TV rant this message. The credit card commercial where the man is getting his butt kicked by the high interest monster until his wife saves him, is a good example. In America men are cast as weak and silly whereas women are cast as strong and logical. Huh? It is because of this type of thinking that AM have become "pussified" and the women have become masculine and dominant. Women control the dating game here in America.
Now in Russia, the tables are turned completely opposite. The number of women available to date far exceeds the available men. This is because of the high rate of men in the military, alcohalics, high death rate for men and the fact that a large number of men are eliminated from dating just because they cannot afford to do it. The men control the dating game in fsu countries.
The fact remains that as a man, you need to change your way of thinking while pursuing a RW. I am not advocating to be demeaning or harsh in any way, but while you have the control, use it to your own benifit. We AM go to Russia for a better deal, not the same ol same ol.
#2-You are applying "relationship rules" to first time meetings. No matter how much you corresponded with the woman you met in Ukraine, you still were meeting her for the first time. You have no "real" relationship with her. You have a virtual or fantasy relationship until you spend time together. I don't know about you, but I would date an AW for quite a while before I had an exclusive relationship with her. And even then, until I married, I wouldn't account for every second of my day or night to her. Hell, I still have my time to myself inside my marriage.
You are simply putting the cart before the horse with this type of thinking. Guess what? The women are trying you out too! You go over and meet a few women and see if you click, just as they keep meeting men (American or otherwise). It is a natual way of mate selection. There is nothing devious or underhanded about it. Everyone (men & women) want the best for themselves. It is human, no, it is animal nature to do this. Ever hear of the survival of the fittest? It works for humans too. The best men get the best women.
You simply took yourself out of the game before you boarded the plane. You settled for the first woman that wouldn't even have you! (The lack of affection thing) To use this process correctly or to your own best benifit, you use your first trip or trips to introduce yourself to women. I used an agency. They were great for the introductions. I met some very nice women. I admit that I was smitten with my now wife Lena before my trip. But I would not allow that to interfere with meeting other women. She not only accepted it, but expected it. She knew the drill and didn't play any games either. She would never have expected me to just meet her, just as I would never expect her to be exclusive to me.
Now as my time on my first trip wore on, it became apparent to Lena and I that we did have something special. I stopped seeing others and zeroed in on her. When I left, I never promised any exclusivity nor did she ask for it. That is something that comes over time, not before you meet.
KenC
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It would be not so bad to ask a woman's opinion as well. As I stated many times before I would not even waste my time talking to a man if I learnt he was planning VM stratagy. Iv heard other women saying that it was OK with them to know that a man of their choice was visiting others, but honestly I do not believe that they actually liked the idea. I think that they put up with it, because it gave them a chance instead of no chances at all - its not a secret that only a small %% of men writing are actually coming to visit. My husband came to visit just me and by that time we had hours and hours of phone and on-line conversations that by the time Mr.Pedro stepped off the plane in Sheremet'evo, we actually had a relationship. Once he kept me on the phone for 12 hours straight. We had a couple of meals together (on the phone), he went shopping while still being on the phone etc etc. So if you do not (or can not) afford to invest a lot ( I mean A LOT) of time building a relationship with a woman, but only can write a few letters a week, or your woman does not speak english - its better not to take risk and use a VM stratagy. A woman too has no right to demand to be the only one to be visited if she is not ready to invest a lot of time into building pre-visitation relationship.
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OK Donna, I have a question for you:
What would you have done if, after "investing" (your word) so much time and effort in corresponding with Mr. Pedro, that when you met, there wasn't a spark of interest? For what ever reason -- Wrong chemistry. Maybe he never mentioned he had enormously large ears. You just didn't feel it right when you two finally met.
Would you continue on with the relationship? You have an investment to protect. Perhaps you would be willing to overlook moderate problems? Or do you cut your losses, and start your long letter writing process with another one person?
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I've said it once and I'll say it again.....................once you step off the plane and meet the girl its a whole new ballgame.
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Mating is a competitive sport with three teams:
1) You
2) Her
3) Everyone else seeking a mate
It is in the best interest of each that team should play the game with their preferred rules. For a woman seeking a foreign husband through an agency, the chances of success is around 4-5% if one chooses to believe the estimable Elena, referenced by Photoguy. It is thus blindingly obvious that for a woman in the FSU seeking a foreign guy that her best strategy is to do her level best to ensure that you see nobody else but her.
For the man, it is equally obvious that unless he has fallen in love with a photograph (Photoguy, stand up please!), he has a much better chance of finding an appropriate mate by assessing multiple options.
Everyone else, well, when you, Photoguy, are not around, we will, if your woman is at all attractive, be approaching your 'girlfriend' and guess what? She will be responding. For your 'girlfriend' and us, therefore, in this aspect of the game, there are no rules except that possession and access always trump absence from the field. Don't believe what your GF tells you, she will tell you what she thinks will work out best for her, this is normal!
If a woman says she would not have a relationship with a guy dating other women then one must make a choice. If one has limited resources, limited experience and limited communication abilities then this woman should be ignored, or told that her rules will not be followed. She can make her own choice also.
We always make the best choices when actually have a choice, kinda makes sense doesn't it?
Personal example. A friend of mine moved here a few weeks ago. Good looking bloke, earns a decent amount of money, very pleasant guy and house trained. He has no intention of settling down now, but is happy to spend time with women. I introduced him to a friend, very nice woman. They like each other, but like me, he is also seeing other women. She 'falls in love' and decides that he should see only her, so she questions his committment to her. He tells her (repeats) what he has told her before. SHe blows him off as she says she wants only an exclusive relationship. He is saddened but, life goes on.
Yesterday she calls my friend. Tells him she is sorry, she likes him and wants to be with him, but accepts that he is not planning to settle down. Now they will play by his rules and both will be happy. He will be as happy as before and she will be happier than when she was alone and still has a chance to win the lottery prize... That seems like win/win to me.
Doug, go and find an American woman, your country is full of good looking, decent women. Most of them are nicer than the women you might meet here, the only difference is that the ones here, you can not communicate with and so do not know that they are the same as the ones back home. When you have a few relationships locked up and you once again know what is good and bad, know what it feels like to be desired; then go to Ukraine again. If you cannot find a woman in the US who desires you, wants you, needs you and loves you then going to Ukraine will not solve the problems, because you will be the problem and only you can solve that one and once solved, the plane trip will not be needed.
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[quoteKenC wrote: Watch any popular comedy show on TV[/quote]
The best, or maybe the worst, example of this is "Will & Grace". How much less of a man could they have choosen to play opposite the pretty, sexy, funny, intellegent, Grace, than to cast her with a couple of bumbling queers. If that isn't enough to take the lead out of a man's pencil....
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I had written to many and narrowed it down to one. I was advised to have a backup plan just in case so I found some profiles of other interesting looking and sounding ladies in the same town and the address of an agency as a "just in case" option.
It turned out that the one I had written to and talked with on the phone got cold feet and was a no show. I met a couple of other ladies via the agency in town that I contacted and to my amazement I met Elena. We hit it off in every way and now we are very happy together.
So for me writing one was the way I went but with options.
Ken
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If a woman says she would not have a relationship with a guy dating other women then one must make a choice. If one has limited resources, limited experience and limited communication abilities then this woman should be ignored, or told that her rules will not be followed. She can make her own choice also.
We always make the best choices when actually have a choice, kinda makes sense doesn't it?
Good post Andrew. I particularly liked the above. Although, I don't think it was Photoguy's girl that even limited him as much as it was himself. Most guys that go on WOVO trips try to force a round peg into a square hole so as to save their invested time and energy.
KenC
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I had written to many and narrowed it down to one. I was advised to have a backup plan just in case so I found some profiles of other interesting looking and sounding ladies in the same town and the address of an agency as a "just in case" option.
It turned out that the one I had written to and talked with on the phone got cold feet and was a no show. I met a couple of other ladies via the agency in town that I contacted and to my amazement I met Elena. We hit it off in every way and now we are very happy together.
So for me writing one was the way I went but with options.
Ken, great picture of you and Elena in your RWD avatar! :-)
I think the WOVO vs. WMVM argument is a bit silly. In my view, it all depends on the men and the women who are involved in the process. Some women are okay with the idea that they're one of many that the man is pursuing. Some men feel uneasy about choosing too early. On the other hand, some women are offended by the prospect that a man might be "shopping", and some men are fine with making an early choice and then seeing if it works out.
For my wife and I, when our correspondence became quite serious, we both decided to be exclusive -- we stopped corresponding with other people. That worked best for us.
I didn't go to meet her with any back up plans other than being a tourist if everything ended up not working out. Odessa is a beautiful city, and I could have been happy sightseeing for a week. But I think, in retrospect, I probably should have done what Ken did just in case.
But, happily, it wasn't necessary since we connected right away and spent a great 10 days or so together. We ended up meeting another six times over the course of 17 months before her arrival in the States to be with me.
Chuck & Veronica in D.C.
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In my case, i am more WMVO... WM because it is need to make some preselection, i don't wish loose time with woman who have some incompatibility with myself... VO because i need some time for fall in love... i can like a woman in 5 minute but like somebody and love is very different... but if the alchimy, of other thing are not good with the one i visit... i visit again one other...
In some way, i am a WMVOVOVOVO...VO... i meet the woman one by one until i find the good one... so strategie are not possible with one week wonder... but for a trip of 3-4 week, it is possible...
In anycase, each strategie have good and bad side... and argument on what strategie is the best is really not need...
Several people attack Doug because his strategie of visit one... the actual situation of Doug is not due because he have visit one but because he have make a too much short trip for these type of strategie...
Take by example the story of Timothy... visit one during 3 week... the first week lead to think about a misluck... the woman don't like him... but the time have allow the woman to appreciate other quality of him... and the trip have a happy end...
Now, give the time to Doug for make his second trip... only during these trip, he will know if she is the right woman... and maybe be engaged... and really, i don't understandt why some people advice him to date other woman in US... i think that he need continue the actual started relation... and he will know later if it was the good or bad move... if he stop now, he go never know if he was right or wrong... and so never learn...
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Chuck,
The debate is silly because eventually we all have to get to visiting just one. It is simply a numbers game that is being played in the beginning. Does one want to select a prospective mate from a large pool of pssibilities? Or take a blind poke of luck from a single choice? And I will say that I do believe in luck too. I was very lucky.
You also have to consider that some guys are just not very picky and others are very very picky. I know of a poster here that went to the fsu countries many many times before he actually pulled the trigger. I am sure that many of the women he met prior to his wife, were great gals for someone else.
I also think that the mind set of the man is even more important than the method her uses. What I mean is if a man goes to Russia to fill a "wife vacancy", I think he is flirting with disaster. The healthier way to pursue this process, IMHO, is to go over and meet women that you find interesting from a pool of women that are serious about marriage eventually. I have met a lot of RW/AM couples and most of the successful ones took their sweet ol time and let the relationship develope on a more normal time table.
Bruno,
Not everyone has the luxury of a quick cheap flight to the fsu countries as you do. That alone is a huge difference.
KenC
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I agree, in the end it narrows down to one. But, given that I have never won in a lottery, I find it hard to believe that a person can find his/her best choice life companion in but a single shot. I also know that I could live with very many women that I know.
So, yes, it depends to a large degree upon one's standards. If one wants the best then one would be foolish to seek a bride from Russia one woman at a time. If one is willing to accept the the first woman one meets who is not repulsive, then doing the thing one at a time is viable. It will surely not take many shots to find an acceptable woman. It will surely take many more to find an optimal match. The woman's perspective is, of course different, she almost certainly has a different goal to the man; the man being just a part of the package for her.
And yes, I know some people do win the lottery, but one can not plan one's life on that expectation...
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What would you have done if, after "investing" (your word) so much time and effort in corresponding with Mr. Pedro, that when you met, there wasn't a spark of interest? For what ever reason -- Wrong chemistry. Maybe he never mentioned he had enormously large ears. You just didn't feel it right when you two finally met.
Hey Neighbor;
To answer your question regarding "wrong chemistry", you may have eyes but you can't see. If "big ears" is a deal breaker, maybe she's better off without a man that put such importance into appearance instead of a person's soul.
A little explanation.
Reasons to find a hot babe in the former Soyuz:
1) Looking for my soulmate
2) Someone to share same interests (no mention of big ears)
3) AW are so superficial, they hate big ears.
4) RW are very romantic, they could care less about big ears.
5) RW are old fashioned, they will love me for my heart. My big ears are just gravy.
6) RW love a man being a man. My big ears make me a bigger man.
7) Duh!
I fully understand Donna_Pedro because it was exactly the same with my wife. The reason my wife chose me over a number of candidates, including a couple of young doctors from this side of the pond and a new Russian (I've seen pictures of him and my opinion is he is brutally handsome) was a simple sentence. I told her that through her eyes I could see her soul. Her big ears were just gravy.
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6) RW love a man being a man. My big ears make me a bigger man.
Conyo, hombre, you're making me feel inadequate because your ears are bigger than mine! ;)
Chuck in D.C.
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Mating is a competitive sport with three teams:
1) You
2) Her
3) Everyone else seeking a mate
Hey Dr. Strangelove:
What you described was not really dating, but just fucking around. I did the same years ago and had a few "little black books." I was told it was the accent.
However, if and when you decide to look for a life-time partner, what you just mentioned will be out the window. A funny thing happens when a man falls for a woman. It feels as if she somehow detaches your dick and has sole posession of it. Even when you are hanging out with your buddies, she will still own the remote to your dick. You will only use it for getting rid of the beer you drink with your buddies.
Right now you are in an envious position. You own your own dick. There will come a day that it will be hanging in a wall mount at her place, so enjoy it while it last.
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6) RW love a man being a man. My big ears make me a bigger man.
Conyo, hombre, you're making me feel inadequate because your ears are bigger than mine! ;)
Chuck in D.C.
[/quote]
Well, what o you expect? I'm at least 50 lbs bigger that you, 25 on each ear lobe!
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What you described was not really dating, but just ****ing around.
Opps, sorry Dan.
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Mushz, if you agree with the concept that love will blindly strike you then you have a point. Most of us though know that finding a mate, whilst a matter of luck, to some degree, is actually a numbers game.
Think about it. If you meet nobody, you have no opportunity to find a mate, yes?
If you pick the first person you meet, you have a poor chance of finding a compatible mate, yes?
I am sure that the person that you are with now is not the first person you met or dated, yes?
So we know that finding a mate, logically, means making a choice from several potential partners, yes?
You made a choice to stop looking, at some point so will most of us, you will recall that I wrote as much in my post, yes?
So, how can you disagree with what I wrote?
The only point of difference is that you appear to think that the man has no part in the process. That might be true for you, it is not true for most men, even if it is only a negative, as in a choice to move on. Also, do not forget that whatever you tell us, you know, as do almost all, self aware, seekers of wives from poorer countries, that there are significant distorting factors influencing the choice made by a woman. We can flatter ourselves as much as we like, it is fun and good for the ego, but seeing into the soul...? Perleeeze.
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VISITING ONE versus VISITING MANY
What's about woman's "right" for "INVITING MANY"?( or how you call it, if you consider that possability at all of course)
Would be she marked as a scammer or it would be OK for you to know she is going to "taste other waters" at the same time you 're visiting her just to make a best choice for herself or to have a garantee for the case chemestry would not appear with you?
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"taste other waters"
I suppose if she wants to taste other men, I guess that's ok. I suspect you meant "test". I see nothing wrong with a woman doing WMTS, (write many, taste many) from a woman's point of view. After all, she has to live with her choice in the long run.
What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. In reality, I think women have always done this anyway. Nothing new here.
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I meant taste:D (what's wrong with "test men?)
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Elen, if you didn't get that play on words, I don't want to be the person who explains it to you.
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Why would not explain English word's game for poor Russian thing who really didn't get it?:?
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:D:D:D
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So, how can you disagree with what I wrote?
The only point of difference is that you appear to think that the man has no part in the process. That might be true for you, it is not true for most men, even if it is only a negative, as in a choice to move on. Also, do not forget that whatever you tell us, you know, as do almost all, self aware, seekers of wives from poorer countries, that there are significant distorting factors influencing the choice made by a woman. We can flatter ourselves as much as we like, it is fun and good for the ego, but seeing into the soul...? Perleeeze.
Andrew:
My answer to your first 5 questions is : Yes.
Re-read what I wrote. I'm not disagreeing with these questions.
And yes, the man has no part in "the process." It has been and always will be up to the woman to pick her mate, not all the way around. Simple evolution. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.
And as I mentioned before, regarding "looking at her soul," you may have eyes but you can't see. Let me know if I have to explain this to you.
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Bruno,
Not everyone has the luxury of a quick cheap flight to the fsu countries as you do. That alone is a huge difference.
KenC
Ken, my fligt can seem cheap for several of people here, but these 500 euro are enought money for me... almost the half of one month income after tax... it is why i choice a long term visit... the stay himself in FSU is enough cheap comparate to the same holliday in Belgium...
I cannot permit financialy 4 trip of one week by year... it will be only for the airfaire around two month income... i only adapt my method to my income...
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Hmmm,
Muzh wants his wife to mount his dick on the wall like a trophy…
Elen wants to "taste the waters" of many men…
The outpatients are out in force tonight :shock:
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So you reckon you are preaching some universal truth when you say -
"And yes, the man has no part in "the process." It has been and always will be up to the woman to pick her mate, not all the way around. Simple evolution. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself."
All you are demonstrating is that you don't have a lot of experience or self confidence with women.
You know women ALWAYS make the initial decision on starting a relationship. A guy can only choose from the women who have already chosen him. A lot of guys never make that decision. They are so happy to have a girlfriend that they accept the woman's decision.
You are one of those guys.
I am not a prize that a woman can claim.
I made my choice. I own my balls….
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Elen,
Of course what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Until the couple decides that they are exclusive to each other, both are "free agents".
KenC
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I agree fully with Ken... and now, by experience, i can correct a little his sentence : "until the final yes during the marriage both are free agent"
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Ken,
I agree with the idea that before two people make a commitment, there's
freedom to date other people. I understand. On the other hand, when a guy goes to the FSU and lines up a dozen women to date, I think there are negative effects of such a process. Donna is proof that there can be a problem with that dating strategy. Is she wrong to feel that way? It doesn't matter - it only matters that many women, I believe, are humiliated by a multiple dating process.
This topic has very little to do with me. In my case, I wrote to a few women and quickly narrowed it down to one very interesting person. I found her to be fascinating. Nobody can advise me that she should not interest me. So, given that truth, I set out to have an adventure in Kyiv. I wanted to meet her and see if she was also interesting, in a face to face meeting. If after meeting her, she or I lost interest, then I'd just enjoy my vacation anyway and maybe I'd improvise by visiting a dating agency.
Like someone said, a 'relaxing' visit to Kyiv was my goal and not a pressure-filled line-up of potential wives. Is there some problem with that? Is it scandalous? I wanted to focus on one woman and I'm happy I did. If things don't work out, I'll write women again until I found that
'right' impression. And then I'll go visit her because she will be a woman who made the right impression with me before the visit. But, this topic isn't about me, it's about the merits of either VO or VM.
How are RW affected by a guy who uses the VM strategy, contrasted with
a guy who uses the VO strategy? That's the question that interests me.
Donna and Elena of Elena's Models are two women that come to mind that do
have a problem with the VM strategy. Are there others? Are these women part of a small minority or a large majority?
Again, for my own strategy, I just went with the flow, what felt 'right'
for me. I did not have a strong opinion either way, although I was surprised by the overreaction by the guys who VM. So is the failure rate much worse for VO? Duggi
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Mushz, if you agree with the concept that love will blindly strike you then you have a point. Most of us though know that finding a mate, whilst a matter of luck, to some degree, is actually a numbers game.
Think about it. If you meet nobody, you have no opportunity to find a mate, yes?
If you pick the first person you meet, you have a poor chance of finding a compatible mate, yes?
Let me run this idea by you: As you live your life, you meet MANY women. There are exceptions to that rule, but I know I have met many different kinds of women and have had dozens of infatuations. It's not true to imply that someone is choosing the first person they meet. Before meeting a woman you actually can tell if she's the type of woman you are looking for. There are many men who do not have a clue what they're looking for. In my case, I know very well what type of woman I am seeking. That is why I can easily narrow it down to one or two women in a short amount of time and even through emails. Looking at my own past history, I have learned what qualities the right woman for me will have. Ken seems to think for some bizarre reason that I stumbled upon a particular woman and just randomly chose her because she was a breathing human from the FSU. That's just not how it was or is. I can compare a woman to all other women that I have known. Yes, it's a numbers game AND you learn what kind of woman is toxic and what kind of woman is appropriate for you. In my case, I've taken years of experience to learn what qualities to choose. Doug
Guys: What specific qualities are you searching for in a woman?
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Of course what is good for the goose is good for the gander
Truth tell after reading yours trip reports I got only an imagination many you follow another saying "quo licet Jovi, non licet bovi " - "Что позволено Юпитеру, то не позволено быку":? Because you ( many of you) see money spent on a trip as your exclusive right for a girl. Something like "Of course she may to see others but then I don't want to deal with her"
I may be wrong but I just can't get rid from that feeling. Sorry
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Doug - nothing wrong with writing, narrowing your choice down to one and flying over to meet her with backup plans. Many a guy has had success with that approach. My and many other guys experience is that once you get off the plane the person you were writing either does not exist, does not like you, misrepresented herself, you are instantly repulsed or you / she soon learn that chemistry just does not exist between you.
Today more than ever there are so many ghosts / fat Yuri's writing letters to American men. That or because it is so easy to fall in love with a photo and establish your own fantasy that I always urge guys to go sooner rather than later ie. make it real. I urge guys to go over and establish a relationship with a real person, whether after meeting many or one with whatever the method. Then worry about growing your relationship ie. do it with a real person you have met and have chemistry with, not a photo and a fantasy.
Look for the character traits in a mate most important to you. Real honesty, real loyalty, real sincerety, real kindness. Those are what is most important to me.
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Donna and Elena of Elena's Models are two women that come to mind that do
have a problem with the VM strategy.
And both are "mosckvichkas". Strange, isnt it? I really want to see a woman who stands up and says that she likes the idea of VM. Andrew is right - if a person lacks resources, experience and his communication abilities are limited - he better go VM. My reasons for ignoring a VM men were plain. If a man does not like this idea - he can go to h..l, because at the end of the day, its my life we are talking about, I am responsible for it, I am going to do everything the way I see fit and if it costs someone an extra few grands - too bad. Dont get started at all if you can not afford even a trip. If a man is an introvert, can not communicate and figure out I am not a scammer - he is not my type too, so end of discussion, I am not wasting my time on him. I was not looking for looovvveee but rather for the plain things that no family can not function without - personal compatability and financial stability. As my experience shows the issue of major personal compatability can be sorted by communicating on the phone, provided both speak english fluently and ready to invest time in getting to know each other. The issues of financial stability came up in our extensive communications several times, mostly in a subtle way, so I could figure out Mr.Pedro was doing OK. And, boy, if a person can keep me on the phone for 12 hours, it means he is so d..mn special, that the size and form of his ears, nose and what else is there, does not mean much. I dont know what could have happened in person that would kill the "chemistry" we had on the phone. There are so many guys who came home empty-handed after a VM trip, so there is always risk and no guarantees. Womem simply need not to afraid to take matters in their own hands. Men think they will choose because they pay. Those who thought this way got their reality check with me very quickly.
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i'd like to see the situation reversed. let's say the usa is full of good men yet we are unable to go to russia or ukraine. let's say the women in russia and ukraine have money and can travel to the usa to meet men. are they going to take the first man they meet, even if it is not thethe right man?
would women expect of themselves what they expect of us?
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Muszh, we can delude ourselves in many ways, but, as yet, there has been no demonstrated ESP ability in humans. The eyes are just eyes and knowledge comes with time and experience, st into context. (choice)
If you choose to believe that you have no part in the process of mate selection then you are less perceptive than you need to be. Perhaps one of those people who needs to find a wife from a strange and economically hindered country...
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Donna said "its my life we are talking about, I am responsible for it, I am going to do everything the way I see fit and if it costs someone an extra few grand - too bad."
Well I agree with this attitude entirely. You have to look after your own interests. If you don't no one else will. The women I dated to find my wife had to play by my rules. I operated a strict "one strike and you are out policy" I know I broke some hearts but in any competition there have to be losers. There were (and still are!) so many eligible women to chose from why should I settle for "second best"?
Donna also said "I don't know what could have happened in person that would kill the "chemistry" we had on the phone."
Interesting comment. Kenc made a good point earlier on this -
"Most guys that go on WOVO trips try to force a round peg into a square hole so as to save their invested time and energy."
This approach is shared by the VO women so maybe it is true. I reckon it is not a big issue with visit one folks, they are more ready to compromise more than the rest of us are. Looks and sex are less important too. "Chemistry" on the telephone?? Weird!
Well it is 3 years later and we have the same protagonists (Donna Andrew and me) posting on a dating strategy thread. Guess what? Nothing has changed….
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[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:
Let me run this idea by you: As you live your life, you meet MANY women. There are exceptions to that rule, but I know I have met many different kinds of women and have had dozens of infatuations. It's not true to imply that someone is choosing the first person they meet. Before meeting a woman you actually can tell if she's the type of woman you are looking for. There are many men who do not have a clue what they're looking for. In my case, I know very well what type of woman I am seeking. That is why I can easily narrow it down to one or two women in a short amount of time and even through emails. Looking at my own past history, I have learned what qualities the right woman for me will have. Ken seems to think for some bizarre reason that I stumbled upon a particular woman and just randomly chose her because she was a breathing human from the FSU. That's just not how it was or is. I can compare a woman to all other women that I have known. Yes, it's a numbers game AND you learn what kind of woman is toxic and what kind of woman is appropriate for you. In my case, I've taken years of experience to learn what qualities to choose. Doug
Guys: What specific qualities are you searching for in a woman?
Personally I have never been much of a fan of the WOVO system. I have made too many trips when the one gal that I thought was the person I wanted to spend my life with was not the same person in real life that I shared my letters, my thoughts and my feelings.
I have had the nice sweet gals who wrote all those wonderful letters turn out to be nasty, turn out to be crazy, turn out to be scammers and gold diggers. Of course I have had some turn out to be very nice. I think one of the most frustrating parts of meeting FSU women for me was the dissapointment watching my dreams, hopes and expectations smashed by reality.
Most of my trips and attempts to meet ladies were more write tons of ladies and visit a few. The closest I got to something that might be called a power trip were the romance tours of which I took three with EC. I usually tried to spend 2-3 days with a gal. If I really thought it was going the be something special I might spend more time. The record was a week.
I only ever made one trip to meet one lady and that was intended to be an elimination. I had met a gal from Donetsk that I thought might be worth trying to build a future with. She was not very pretty and did not have much of a figure but was one of the nicest persons I met and she had a look that appealed to me although she might not to many guys.
My elimination trip was some goofy gal over in Nizhney Novogord that I had never seen a photo of and did not even know her age. She was sending me SMS messges that I couldn't get out of my mind. I really liked the personality and her sense of humor and thought I would go over, visit her and get her out of my mind so I could concentrate on the gal from Donetsk. After I said I would visit her and before I went she had a friend send some photos. When I saw them it was sort of wow, maybe I should take this gal more serious. In January I made my elimination trip but what really got eliminated was any other gal I ever had an interest in and there were hundreds I was writing at that time. I have made a dozen wmvm trips and one trip to visit one and that was the one that worked for me. I think in reality it is all a bit of luck. You just keep working at it until the right one comes along. She will. It may be the very first, it might take dozens. She will come along.
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This is a pointless arguement. No one is going to change anyones minds on this topic. What worked for one person may not work for another. Of the women I met on my first trip to the FSU I had not written to ANY OF THEM. I met my fiancee on that trip.... So Im of the opinion that writing today is a huge waste of time. Especially when it is so lucrative for the agencies to hire girls to write letters and keep the $$ coming in the door. IMHO if you are starting out today you are far better off simply getting on a plane, picking a city and visiting the women while you are there.... then write.
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This is a pointless arguement. No one is going to change anyones minds on this topic.
That is the most astute remark I have heard in a long time. That applies to a lot of things but everyone seems to want to save the world.
I have to agree with you about writing but there are a lot of places where you can write without paying a fee for each letter. I think the guys who write a ton a ladies at $ 8.00 a letter or so are throwing away a lot of money. I see guys spending $ 1000 a month and probably a lot of it on ladies who don't even know he exists.
I think the idea of falling in love with letters is not a very sure thing but you can get to the point where you have some shared monemts to build on and some basic knowlege of each other as well.
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Whilst it is not likely to be possible to change the minds of those who honestly write here that they believe handing over the choices of mate to a person they do not know is a good thing (WOVO), I do not think it is a waste of time.
I look at this from an independent viewpoint, that of living in the FSU and dating local women, with an insight into what they are doing and why. I would not be writing to many, or any women; no need. My experience gives me the knowledge to make the posts I do. Those who argue for writing to and visiting just one woman tend to have very little knowledge or experience. That some make a satisfactory arrangement is not in doubt. That some people are more accepting, shy, desperate or whatever is also beyond doubt. Those who have much emotional energy invested into doing what they do and have done are unlikely to change, it is not the nature of man to do so.
Hopefully, a couple of guys reading these posts might look and say 'Hey, I know I was going to see just one person, but, on reflection and seeing what these guys write, for and against, it seems madness!' I care not one whit what others here have done, I can see the results, but a guy who sees himself successful will not say 'do not do this!' He will say 'do this!'. I look from the outside and say that to try to pick one woman from over 100,000,000 by email and to cleave only to her is misguided, I say it because I know what the women seeking foreign guys are doing. They are not playing the same game as the guys and for the few who, for some reason or other, are genuine, well, they are insignificant and can be cast aside. (Sorry Donna, I am sure you are a lovely individual, but you are, in the end, one of many... that said you found what you wanted, but I would feel no loss in not having included you in a list of potential wife candidates.
It is to late to save the guys who have chosen to play by the rules of the women who need the man more than the man need the women. Perhaps those who follow can learn.
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Leslie
The women I dated to find my wife had to play by my rules.
See, Leslie, the whole pool of confident and challenging girls, who refuse to play by your rules, is out of your reach. You have a choice only among those who "HAVE TO" put up with yours. Well, may be you do not need a challenge...
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Andrewfin
Those who argue for writing to and visiting just one woman tend to have very little knowledge or experience.
ehhh? :shock:
It is to late to save the guys who have chosen to play by the rules of the women who need the man more than the man need the women.
Thats the whole point Andrew!!!! Exellent. I keep repeating it over and over and over. Thats whom most men bring here - desperate women. (I keep saying it on RW web-sites too- never ever let a man think you need him, or you will always play by his rules. If even you are desperate, make it look like you can care less. And if you start playing by his rules once, you will be playing this way all your life). Its easy to say, not easy to do though. For me it comes naturally, because the slogan I live by is "UP YOURS!" I dont need a man to be happy, I dont need a man to be rescued, I am confident. When a man anderstands that a woman does not need him more then he needs her - the rules get changed, arent they?
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Каждый выбирает для себя
Женщину, религию, дорогу,
Дьяволу служить или пророку,
Каждый выбирает для себя."
And everybody gets what he is looking for (Just wonder why do such many of you guys get into a jam with scammers:P)
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Donna,
You are a very independent, dominant woman. I respect the way you have established yourself in the US and built a stable marriage. You and Jet are very good role models for the WOVO approach. I don't dispute that WOVO works for certain types of people. As long as this approach is carried out with care and diligence I am sure that it works.
I took a reasoned decision not to date ANY visit one type people. I did date a small number (because they initially lied about how they played the dating game) but their true feelings came out -usually by the second date and I stopped then. I have no regrets about this. I dated lots of very independent minded career women in Manhattan. These women always professed that they did not need a man. Funny that they can be found in droves in the singles bars of Greenwich village on any Friday or Saturday night…..
I hope you are not still characterizing all FSU women involved in this process who do not share your outlook as "landfill" that was so narrow minded. :X
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nevermind..this ain't worth it
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nevermind..this ain't worth it
I hear ya.... I learned an incredible lesson when I went to Odessa having to immediately use a back up plan because the women I had been writing were all "unable" to meet for various reasons. Its my opinion that they couldnt meet becuase I wasnt atcually writing to the women in the photos!
If an agency is going to do letter scams its impossible for you to detect that until you show up. The gal(agency translater) writing can give you her phone number, hence you wont know. She can actually give you the real girls address if you want to do the flower/photo deal. A very confused girl gets flowers from a stranger and smiles for the picture.
Short of you physically being there to say hello face to face there is no consistent way to know if the gal you are corresponding with is who you think you are corresponding with! Because the letter scam is so lucrative for agencies today, I am not convinced that you can have much success picking an agency off the net, and writing.
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I've been datingin this arena since December. I'm new at it.
I had exchanged letters with RW back in '97. For me it's not a
pointless argument. It's an interesting subject. Donna has mentioned an
idea that I've already considered independently:
Women who are willing to play by the 'man's rules' are more desperate than those who are not willing to do that. Along the same logic, I think it also may be possible that women who are quickly affectionate also may be more desperate. It's logical isn't it? She wants that green card and she dreams of an easier life within the American Dream. That type of woman could easily use any approach that she thinks will work: seductive photos,
a name like Hot To Trot, a French kiss in the first 5 minutes, and she is SO amazed by his brilliant personality.
I think we should just conclude that many different approaches can succeed and many different strategies can also fail. True?
It just bugs me that I've been warned that MY approach is wrong, misguided, impractical, etc. Let me fail or succeed without forcing your strategy down my throat.
However, I do think it's fine to warn newbies. Tell them that Svetlana may turn out to be Fat Yuri or some other faker. Urge newbies to go visit some women over there. I would have visited more than one myself, if I didn't think she was someone special to focus in on.
To this day, I am surprised that she was just as special as her emails.
I thought there might be some things about her that would disqualify her, or vice versa. But, she really is fantastic and if it doesn't work out I will have no regrets about our communications and meeting. Doug
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Women who are willing to play by the 'man's rules' are more desperate than those who are not willing to do that. Along the same logic, I think it also may be possible that women who are quickly affectionate also may be more desperate. It's logical isn't it?
this is so flawed, it is not worth commenting on other than to grab it and quote it. nothing "logical" about it at all, it is nothing more than a misguided supposition.
desperate because they play by the man's rules..good grief! so that flawed "logic" supports the next incredible supposition, that since doug didn't get a kiss in7-10 days spent with a lady, and anyone else who did, well, it's becausethe lady who does kiss youis desperate...gooder grief!
glad you put "may" in there doug. but man,...
since a woman who plays by any man's rules is desperate, using this "logic", then i suppose it is only "logical" to suggest any man playing by a woman's rules is desperate also.
since this is a man's world, a man playing by a woman's rules must be even more desperate.
this being a man's world, i am going to keep playing by my rules, thank you.
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Strict logic does not apply to this realm.. If it were so we would have figured it out long ago. My suggestion is stop 'anal'ysing and simply experience.
Fortunately it will remain a mystery.. whatever floats your boat is just fine with me:D
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hey BC! we're closer to the same time zone i see...
yeah, living here over a year now, i see how totally lost the average american male is, how our society has been brainwashing us for decades.
i can see more clearly now, why i left the usa at age 18, just knowing it had to be better elsewhere. the alpha male is becoming extinct in america.
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anono
this being a man's world, i am going to keep playing by my rules, thank you.
A civilized American or european woman will redicule you if you ever tell her its a mans world. US and Western Europe are anymore as much a man's culture as it is a woman's one. A "man's world" only exists where economic situation is desperate, ie where people are desperate. Russia indeed is a man's world. You all are going there for a easy way to feel yourselvs dominating males. AW will never let a "man's world" happen in the family. Personally I wanted to establish equality right from the first moment. Any man who is with me is going to consider my opinion when "choosing the rules" or he can go to h..ll. Would not it be this way with any confident WW? Every day on RWA I see tens of women complaining that their american husbands are playing by their rules with no regard to their opinions etc. I keep telling them - you let him see how desperate you were, you let him play by his rules back in russia, so what are you complaining now? And manhood is not in your pants, anono...
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ridicule me all you want donna. now that you have been in the usa a few years, your an expert on american and western european women. you know what they think. you know thw women from my country that i have lived in for 49 years better than i do, i am sure
i have not said a word about sharing a woman's opinion of things in my decision making when with a woman because i always listen and appreciate the opinion of any woman in my company. i also treat all the women in my life as equals and have an equal say in anything we consider doing. in fact, i bet more than half the time i do what the woman wants to do. i grew up with a mother and two sisters with strong opinions. they had five brothers to contend with. i never said a word about not considering a woman's opinion. your post has nothing to do with what i am discussing mainly with doug. i have always had a confident woman in my life. i would not be able to stand a weak woman. if you read what doug is saying, he is trying to tell us a woman who plays by men's rules is desperate. i am simply showing how silly that is, by saying well, then, a man must be desperate to play by a woman's rules. it doesn't work that way for either sex.
just as you told us not long ago, it'll be YOUR rules or the guy can take a hike. nothing about equality there.
all i am saying is i am going to do this my way and not by some woman's rules, just like you will not by a man's rules.
i didn't feel i had to explain further what you have said here. it is a mutual cooperation.
but i am not going to sit here and let someone try and tell me anyone who plays by the other sexes rules are desperate. or that a woman who shows affection quickly is somehow desperate.
that was the topic, not the interaction i have with a woman when playing by my rules. my rules include the woman's rules. it's called co-operation. i said i play by my rules, i did not say a woman has to play by my rules. when i play with a woman, it's with our rules. a mutual desire to do the same thing based on an understand of mutually agreed upon rules we make as we get to know each other and develop rapport.
if a woman is going to expect fidelity from me or expect me to only date her after one meeting without knowing each other, i am not going to then play by her rules because it does not include mine.
A civilized American or european woman will redicule you if you ever tell her its a mans world.
simply because you say something it does not mean its true. did you take a poll? i have said all my life, while living in the usa that it is a man's world.. no one ridicules me. i'm just stating the facts. are you going to try and say it's a woman's world? it isn't and we all know it. it's man's world is a common expression where i live and i live right in the middle of the usa.
i haven't paid much attention to you in the past, do you live in the states? i think some of what kenC says earlier in this thread is exactly right,. do you see what is on american TV and how they portray men?
it does not even come close to being equal. we're made to look like effeminate, timid idiots.
it being a man's world has nothing to do with economic conditions. not in the way i intend it to mean. it's more about power than economics.
i agree with you it their has to be equality in relationships. mutually agreed upon ground rules for living together. no problem. we're talking about fidelity and monogamy to someone you haven't even kissed or really even know. our dating rules may differ but not relationship rules.
look for your fight elsewhere. you're a lot like most RW here, simply looking to disagree with anything and everything a AM posts.
it'd be interesting to read what RM would say if they read these posts.
Any man who is with me is going to consider my opinion when "choosing the rules" or he can go to h..ll.
i don't remember you saying you'd consider a mans opinion when you told us a little ways back that a man would have to play by your rules. sounds like you do not consider a man's opinion yet you expect him to consider yours? that's equal? maybe to you it is.
reminds me of "i like agreeable people, as long as they agree with me"
i never said a thing about not considering a woman's opinion. i just said it's man's world and it is.
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Humm, some of us are trying hard to be nice. Makesme wonder if it is worth the effort. Iguess it is just sorta too boring to stayaway from things since you are not with jat the moment.
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it does not even come close to being equal. we're made to look like effeminate, timid idiots
Russia is a man's world. Thats why AM like it so much, because its opposite to US, that is clearly a woman's world. I agree, its rather hard to remain a man in a country where the culture grew so backwards on this matter.
i said i play by my rules, i did not say a woman has to play by my rules.
and what happens if she does not? :cool::cool:
Its rather easy to be a man in a man's world especially in the country where ecomony is so bad that many women would like to leave the country. If one refuses to play by your rules- hey, its a man's world, there are so many others that will. I have to agree with Doug on some matters. A lot of RW are desperate. Its a fact. And it effects their behavoir. There is no flaws in this logic. The same with affectionate women. Not all affectionate women are desperate, but concidering that russians are a rather reserved culture, we do not exactly show passionate emotions to strangers, its a bit.... unusual if a woman kisses and talks "love" quickly. It might be a sign of desperation.
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So that is why you are on lists like this looking? Or are you one of those that will have to put "it" on a table and compare whose is bigger? I know where I put mine and I don't have to compare.
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US, that is clearly a woman's world
let's see, who built ..well, just about everything...
ok. who runs, well....just about everything...
that's what i mean about it's a man's world donna. i do not come here because it's a man's world. two years ago i had no idea what it was like here. i did not come here to find a desperate or subservient woman. the usa is full of them. you have no idea who or what i am, any more than i know you. you can think what you want of the men who come over here, but that does not mean you have a clue as to my motivations or what i think. i see the men who come over here and they are all kinds. not just guys looking for a wife they can boss around.
they are trying to make it a woman's world in the usa but nothing can or ever will reverse basic genetic instincts. they are just confusing a lot of people. i'm not one of the confused. i guess that's what i mean about knowing what's in my pants and who wears them.
i wasn't born yesterday, i am sure i have enough life experience to know if someone is desperate. i have seen enough of the world (and i am sure much much more of it than you ever have or will) to know what i am doing. not all the women here are desperate or subservient women trying to escape their environment. i think i know the difference. but thanks for trying to look out for me.
you are trying to twist this into something i never said or has anything to really do with what i am saying. but, since you're the expert on everything and claim to know what huge numbers of other people think, i'm not going to try and argue with you.
and what happens if she does not? :cool::cool:
well, beat them and shackle them in the basement with the others, of course.:cool::cool:
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I have no problem with you. Why should I? We will never meet.
I do have a problem when you post puerile rubbish which purports to be advice.
It could be read by a new comer and reinforce his lonely, needy behaviour, leading to disastrous results……
You wrote -
What you described was not really dating, but just ****ing around. I did the same years ago and had a few "little black books." I was told it was the accent.
However, if and when you decide to look for a life-time partner, what you just mentioned will be out the window. A funny thing happens when a man falls for a woman. It feels as if she somehow detaches your dick and has sole possession of it. Even when you are hanging out with your buddies, she will still own the remote to your dick. You will only use it for getting rid of the beer you drink with your buddies.
Right now you are in an envious position. You own your own dick. There will come a day that it will be hanging in a wall mount at her place, so enjoy it while it last.
So when you meet an acceptable life time partner you fall in love so far, so fast and so completely that you hand her the emotional controls to your life.
(I won't use your locker room slang but this is the intellectual gist of your statement.)
This psychopathology is present in every train wreck story I have read on the boards in the last 5 years.
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If the woman plays by your rules, what exactly does that mean?
It's vague and ambiguous. For example, with the new woman in Bruno's
trip report, is he playing by his rules or hers?
The entire 'man's rules' versus 'women's rules' concept just does not make sense to me. If you want to say that in some ways a man should be dominant, I agree and understand.
The history of Ukraine shows us that its society was matriarchal. Before the Soviet Union, women controlled and dominated family life and probably used a strong velvet glove. Keep that in mind.
I think the bottom line is love and respect and how those two concepts are implemented in a marriage. If a woman feels disrespected because her lover chooses not to be monogamous, it would be a problem of disrespect, having nothing to do with 'man's rules' or 'women's rules'. If you cite examples of science or statistical studies that support the idea that monogamy is not prevalent or an unrealistic goal, then you will be sabotaging your own relationship or marriage.
If she doesn't want to French kiss in the first seven days, that's okay. It has nothing to do with rules. I can still feel affection for her and give her respect that allows me to have patience with her. There are success stories that support my positive attitude toward her. And I know her better than anyone here.
Your woman may be perfect for you. That's great. Just as some have warned me that her behavior is negative or objectionable, I can sincerely advise you that the opposite behavior, a woman who is all over you like a cheap suit, can also be logically viewed as desperate behavior motivated by less than honest intentions.
If she f&%ks you in the first week, it means:
a) She has never met an amazing stud like you.
b) She is so horny she would behave that way with anyone.
c) Her goal is to relocate, no matter what it requires.
d) You are her soul mate. She has finally found you!! Yup.
If she doesn't f&%k you in the first week, it means
a) You are repugnant to her.
b) It goes against her 'three week' rule.
c) She doesn't want you to think she is as desperate as she is.
d) She wants to get to know you better first to see if she likes you
as a potential husband.
You should be thinking about all of these possibilities.
Follow your instincts. Find a woman who you can love and respect.
Be considerate of her - her needs, her emotions, everything she is.
If you do some behavior that really bothers her, change your behavior.
Or move on. That's okay. That's respectful - and has nothing to do with 'man's rules' versus 'women's rules'.
The great thing about women from the FSU whoare married to western men, is that there seems to be much more respect between couples, more than between American couples.
...Is that true, or just a false impression? Doug
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Seriously Doug, get on the clue bus.
Clue #1
"If she f&%ks you in the first week, it means:
a) She has never met an amazing stud like you.
b) She is so horny she would behave that way with anyone.
c) Her goal is to relocate, no matter what it requires.
d) You are her soul mate. She has finally found you!! Yup."
How about sex is natural when you are physically attracted to someone? Read some books on women and attraction.
Clue #2
"If the woman plays by your rules, what exactly does that mean?"
Just off the top of my head I'd say- compatiable, similar views, delineation of roles, what your looking for, one reason why you may want to get to know her better, she respects you. Dude, it means that you are in control of YOUR destiny in finding the RIGHT lady for you, not her choosing for you.
Clue #3
"The entire 'man's rules' versus 'women's rules' concept just does not make sense to me. "
You see, its not about "man's" rules or "women's" rules, its about YOUR rules which define what YOU are looking for and not settling for less. You are a MAN so it's okay to refer to it as the "man's" rules. Its the basic character, personality, etc. requirements (also know as rules) in what you must have in a wife, partner, sig other, dog, sheep, whatever.
Clue #4
"For example, with the new woman in Bruno's
trip report, is he playing by his rules or hers?"
With all due respect to Bruno who shared some very tough emotions with us on his trip report (and certainly a great report), it was Luda's rules he played by. If you read the report again, you'll see that she controlled him from the beginning. At first she says she will not see him than tells him she will. She had him eating out of her hand the rest of the trip even though she knew from the get go she was never going to divorce her husband. Bruno lost sight of his mission, to find a wife. Sure he thought she was the one but he should have taken control and at least interviewed (for lack of a better word) her in the beginning meetings as to her suitability of playing by his rules. Questions such as how would your family feel about you and your son living in Belguim, have you ever been married, are you divorced, etc. could have revealed early on she wasn't going to get divorced. Never loose sight of your mission and remain in control. Another important lesson from this is to always have a plan "B".
clue #5
"The great thing about women from the FSU is that there seems to be much more respect between couples, than between American couples.
...Is that true, or just a false impression?"
Com' on, get real. Check out how many profiles there are with single women that are divorced, not married with children, etc. These women are like AW with a few minor differences and most of these are in regards to the difference in dating rules of Russian men versus the average American man and that these women have more of the feminine characteristics (please don't confuse feminine with weakness, as weak they are NOT). These women can drag your ass through divorce court as bitterly there as they can here if they choose to. Respect between couples is determined by the couple, not nationalality. Russian men can be very abusive to their wives just as American men can.
clue #6
There is no real generalities between RW and AW. It truly comes down to YOU. YOU make the decisions on how YOUR trip will be, who YOU will write, who YOU will visit, how YOUR relationships will go, what YOU will settle for, what YOU will put up with, what YOUR destiny will be. The key is YOU, not them, not us! They are unique, but the are still women and YOU are still the same man YOU are here.
Doug, I realize you had your first trip and it was a VO trip. Truly, I suggest that you choke up the bucks and do one of Jacks tours or a similiar tour and meet more RW. You will be amazed and better able to understand them if you have interactions with more than the one you just met. You truly need to experience some more candy stores before you decide which store is best.
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Clue #4
"For example, with the new woman in Bruno's
trip report, is he playing by his rules or hers?"
With all due respect to Bruno who shared some very tough emotions with us on his trip report (and certainly a great report), it was Luda's rules he played by. If you read the report again, you'll see that she controlled him from the beginning. At first she says she will not see him than tells him she will. She had him eating out of her hand the rest of the trip even though she knew from the get go she was never going to divorce her husband. Bruno lost sight of his mission, to find a wife. Sure he thought she was the one but he should have taken control and at least interviewed (for lack of a better word) her in the beginning meetings as to her suitability of playing by his rules. Questions such as how would your family feel about you and your son living in Belguim, have you ever been married, are you divorced, etc. could have revealed early on she wasn't going to get divorced. Never loose sight of your mission and remain in control. Another important lesson from this is to always have a plan "B".
Against this problem about man/woman control and leadership... everybody seem to see only the black and white, but forget the several grey's...
We make again the sex war for see who have the control... in the real life, it is not so... sometime, the man is in control... sometime, the woman... and several time, the two, result of some negociation who lead to a mutual decision...
Maybe several of you have only work like leader and don't know the power of work together... until now, on these topic, i see only extreme meaning... the man in control of the woman... what about sharing the control and try to find a solution together, make negociation...
And about Luda and me, it was my mistake... from the very beginning, she have say that she was separated... not divorced... i have same write it in my report during my stay... only i have not make attention about it... Is Luda responsible because i don't have take care of something she have say from the very beginning ? Certainly not, she was honest from the beginning... only me have not good listen what she have say... and the time is against us... if i was Ukrainian and living there, i was able to stay more long time with her and certainly with the time, she have change of mind...
And i am not so desesperate that i wish only marry the first coming... Luda was the model of woman i like... and if our relation have not lead to a marriage, this change nothing... she have change my point of view about woman and give me hope... really, now, i will be more difficult in my choose...
And about her control me, you was not with us... you have read only a short report... my note are maybe 5 time more long... and what we have life in a short time was more long... several time, i have say : i will not... not always, i have agree with her... but always we have speak and find a conpromice...
Your view of man world is a view from Macho man... the other view present here is a view of feminist... what about a view, where no one control the other, where people share meaning and decision, work together.... i think that these middle view is the usual view for each strong couple...
Since the perfect partner don't exist, nobody is perfect... living together don't need one to have the control but a sharing of the power and decision... and when some problem appear, find solution who are good for the two... trying to have the full control, it is the best way who lead a marriage to the divorce in a short of long time...
Really, these notion of control is something really out of topic in a relation... a relation is sharing, nothing more...
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[user=245]deden[/user]
How about sex is natural when you are physically attracted to someone? Read some books on women and attraction.
Normally, even if there is a strong physical attraction, a woman would rather keep away from sex on the first date, if she sees a perspective of a future serious relationship. Its not a rule, though, but something to think of. Would you mind if I dont read those books, since I kinda grew up in my culture?
If the woman plays by your rules, what exactly does that mean?"
Just off the top of my head I'd say- compatiable, similar views, delineation of roles
Show me one woman who will come here and say that she ENJOYED the fact that her future husband visited another dozen of women along with her and I will believe it. Personally I have not seen one yet.
requirements (also know as rules) in what you must have in a wife, partner, sig other, dog, sheep, whatever.
nice row of things... :cool: I am impressed. Are those dogs, ships, wifes and whatevers allowed to have their own set of requirements as refered to dating, sir? I guess not - The key is YOU, not them, not us!
Wow... No comments.
You truly need to experience some more candy stores before you decide which store is best.
not dogs or ships we are anymore... candy stores. Let me translate it into a woman's language... "You truely need to shop for some more dicks and wallets before you decide which dick is the longest and the wallet - the biggiest".. :cool: (reminds me a good old anekdote - " A woman asks her husband what a confusion is. And he says "hmm.. confusion is... like... imagine you walk into our bedroom and see me in bed with another woman. It would be a confusion... The woman: "I understood, its like you walk into our bedroom and see me in bed with one of your friends".. A man: "No, no,, this one is not a confusion, its you being a who..e...":cool: )
I need to invite the candies from russian fiance forum here. Let them read these things, before they come here, as I consider this particular post is of a great educational value to poor innocent ships, dogs and whatevers.
_____________
Я ох...ваю, дорогая редакция...
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The discussion about 'rules' and stuff just seems odd to me. I stand by what I wrote upthread about guys who claim that, in finding a foreign bride, one at a time is the best way to go. It is misguided and here is why...
If we know that not every woman is one's optimal match then we know that we will probably have to meet more than one woman to find one's optimum match. So, if one is getting on a big silver bird to meet a woman and start to get to know her during one's holidays, then one has perhaps the opportunity to meet two women per year. This is hardly good odds is it?
I met one 'new woman' and two exisitng girlfriends just this last weekend and I sure as hell would not want to be making a definitive choice on the basis of this past weekend.
If you believe that one can 'know' a person fully enough to have established physical attraction by email then perhaps there might be a point, but the reality is that we can not do this, notwithstanding that we might like what a person writes, how they look in their pictures etc. Those held up as role models would have been singing a dfferent story if the pheromones had not matched in the first few seconds of meeting. Mere chance dictates that some will find a match in this manner. Love at first sight happens... But in the real world, one can safely bet against it.
The women in the FSU are playing the game backwards to those in the US and men need to remember and be aware of it. Those men who act irrationally will and ignore the different numeric situation in the FSU, in the end, pay the price.
Partner selection is, essentially, a numbers game. Forget morals, forget man/woman stuff, it is just about numbers. Meet several potential mates and make a selection from an adequate field. Reduce the field and one increases the likelihood of failure. It is probably not a difficult matter to determine, mathematically, the optimum number of contacts needed to achieve a marriage that lasts a minimum of five years.
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That was a great answer Donna. My hat is off to you.
Bruno, I have to agree with you. What minute difference does it make if you were playing by her rules or by yours. You had a wonderful but painful experience. I think you learned a lot from it. I have always believed some things happen as a growing experience for us. Other things happen because they are meant to be.
Actually your story with Luda reminds me a lot of something that happened in my life long ago. At the time I was very sad and dissapointed but through a long chain of events that experience brought me to my search for a FSU woman. I can look back now and see it was an event that I learned from and that shaped my life in the future. I think that you have learned more about what is important for you and in the early part of your tale, you have avoided a disaster.
I think there are too many people who try to analize all the events of the romantic world by some stupid book they read or some stupid rule they have created that they think controls the fate of mankind. There are dozens more books with just as logical a theory that differ. You can find books that tell you all is controlled by the placement of the stars, or the ying and yang of being in harmony with the world. Life is about living and being happy and finding a good woman and having a nice life together. Life is more than about being an alpha male, playing by the males rules, being a macho, gung ho jerk or a wuss.
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Those held up as role models would have been singing a dfferent story if the pheromones had not matched in the first few seconds of meeting.
Yes Andrew.. maybe would be interesting to exchange worn items of intimate clothing first. Any idea if there is a duty on pheromones? Maybe scratch n sniff catalogs a good idea? :D
Just funning you.. Agree that they do play an important but sometimes ignored role with youth, looks and dependency often getting the upper hand.
After reading anono's first 'j' post I suggested he go ahead and dedicate. I think she would have appreciated the gesture. That's ok though as I wish him the best before the alphabet runs out :)
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[user=115]Donna_Pedro[/user] wrote:
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Donna Wrote
"Normally, even if there is a strong physical attraction, a woman would rather keep away from sex on the first date, if she sees a perspective of a future serious relationship. Its not a rule, though, but something to think of. Would you mind if I dont read those books, since I kinda grew up in my culture?"
Show me exactly Donna where I said first date???? If a guy writes a lady for months and than visits her, the two of them may be very attracted to each other. Just because after 4, 5, or 6 dates have ocurred doesn't mean that if they do have sex, she's all over him like a cheap suit as was originally implied by photoguy.
"Show me one woman who will come here and say that she ENJOYED the fact that her future husband visited another dozen of women along with her and I will believe it. Personally I have not seen one yet."
Again, show me exactly where I said she would enjoy it? Its not about whether she enjoys him visiting other women or not, its about him meeting the women that's right for him! Its like another poster said in another thread, wouldn't she want to know that you choose her because she was the best not because she was the only one he met? And quite frankly Donna, it takes in many cases meeting more than one women to find the right women.
"nice row of things... :cool: I am impressed. Are those dogs, ships, wifes and whatevers allowed to have their own set of requirements as refered to dating, sir? I guess not "
Of course wives can, although I'm not sure dogs, sheep or ships date. Obviously my context was a little more broader than just "dating" and referred to what you are looking for whether it be a wife, a car or a plane. We all have an idea of what we want in something and when you start compromising what your crieteria is, you end up with something less than what you wanted. However, the point I was making (since you didn't quite get it) was about MEN who go over to the FSU looking for wives should stick with their rules, and not be forced into only meeting one women (by that women)! If she has her own set of rules and don't like his, she's free to move on! Don't take it so personal Donna. The search is about finding a wife whose rules coincide with yours and the chance of that happening in meeting just one women is very slim.
"not dogs or ships we are anymore... candy stores. Let me translate it into a woman's language... "You truely need to shop for some more dicks and wallets before you decide which dick is the longest and the wallet - the biggiest".. :cool: (reminds me a good old anekdote - " A woman asks her husband what a confusion is. And he says "hmm.. confusion is... like... imagine you walk into our bedroom and see me in bed with another woman. It would be a confusion... The woman: "I understood, its like you walk into our bedroom and see me in bed with one of your friends".. A man: "No, no,, this one is not a confusion, its you being a who..e...":cool: )
I need to invite the candies from russian fiance forum here. Let them read these things, before they come here, as I consider this particular post is of a great educational value to poor innocent ships, dogs and whatevers.
Whatever, better yet get the ladies to post here as well. Would be a great opportunity for some of the newbies to really see how similiar to American women some of these FSU women are and dispell a lot of the myths associated with FSU women. Would convert more of the WOVO camp to WMVM.
Donna, your reaction definately shows how women such as yourself try to control the man's decision in his search for a wife. Of course you would not want someone to see other women because he just might find that you are not the best choice for him. God forbid that he finds someone who is.
Now if you could only get ships to post here as well, the board could be called Russian Women on Ships Discussion board. :shock:
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Deden ~ Your reaction definately shows how women such as yourself try to control the man's decision in his search for a wife. Of course you would not want someone to see other women because he just might find that you are not the best choice for him. God forbid that he finds someone who is.
This is important, it is not that the women are any 'badder' than anwhere else, but they have a goal of finding a foreign husband then they know that, in most cases, they have very few chances to win the big prize. It is absolutely in their interest to cajole the man into seeing only her, or making sure that he sees only her by direct action. (Refusing to see him if he is going to see other women.)
The men and women do have different goals here. The women want to leave their country, love may well be on their list of priorities, as may finding the optimum match. Sadly though, love and optimum match are not as high for most women as they are for the men. Most women, will, in the end, make an 'acceptable' choice. If they were going to do otherwise, they would not even be looking abroad, or registered with a marriage agency.
In Europe and the US matters are much more even and so the rules are different, guys who do not realise this fundamental difference will accept what they are told and be 'ringed' by the first woman who tells the to be exclusive and who makes herself available to him. It is strange to see this process occurring, for real and the way that guys are confused by what is happening to them. When they regain control over their own destiny, things improve. This takes nothing away from the women, except that they, like the men, must now compete for the attention of the person they want to be with.
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Bruno,
Having a set of rules or criteria in what you are seeking in a wife is not about control over a relationship or a women. Control is about sticking to that set of rules to find the women that best meets what you are looking for in a wife and not be blinded by someone that appears to be what you are looking for. The goal is to find someone that is exactly what you are looking for. Believe me, your story was at times painful to read and I was rooting for you all the way! But, you did not find what you were looking for, you came close, but when it was all said and done, you ended up empty handed and broken hearted. The point was you lost control of why you were really there and that was to find a wife, not a friend, not a lover, but someone who was ready to make a life time comittment to you that meets the criteria of what you want in a wife.
Was she in control? You bet she was. Bruno, while I wasn't there I can tell you that you lost control of your situation with Luda the minute you agreed to move into her dorm without establishing whether she met ALL of your criteria (being single was one of them). Once she had you in her dorm (how convienient), it was almost impossible for you to continue your pursuit of why you were really there. She had you for the remainder of the trip knowing full well she was never leaving her husband and never marrying you. And you were a willing participant without a clue that you were being led to slaughter (that be the eventual heartbreak when she says shes not divorcing the husband). If you were in control, you would not have been blindsided at the end nor been heart broken. I'm not saying by any means that she was a bad women. I'm just saying that she had control of of the situation whether it be intentional on her part or not.
I might also add that you lost control with the first gal when you let her intimidate you into playing by her rules which allowed her (at least for a short period of time) to pressure you into visiting her folks after you discovered the truth about her affair. When she said she would throw you out of the apartment, you should just have said there was no need and packed your stuff and walked out! Yes Bruno, the women in your story controlled you.
Bruno, its not about being macho, its about not forgetting why you are there and never compromising on what criteria you've established for which women would best suit you to fullfil your goal in this endeavor (and being married can never be part of the criteria when looking for a potential wife). Its about not turning over the control of your quest to one of the women you may be considering. The allure of the FSU women is very powerful and it is like a kid being in a candy store (sorry Donna, couldn't resist) and it is easy to go astray unintentionally. That's why it is so important to stay focused on the goal and stay in control of your rules and your emotions. That's also why in my response to photoguy I said the KEY is YOU, not them, not us.
Bruno, your trip report was excellent and serves well for the newbies on the dangers that lurk (yep, this endeavour is not as easy as it seems sometimes). I'm sure you learned a lot from your trip as have others. I only wish you the best but stay focused man and have a plan B next go around.
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Would you mind if I dont read those books, since I kinda grew up in my culture?
donna, i believe deden directed this to photoguy, not you. you either are still having a difficult time with english or where there is not a disagreement, you try and creat one by trying to twist the discussion into something it isn't, as you did previously to me.
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anono
Anono, dont take it personal...
deden
they do have sex, she's all over him like a cheap suit as was originally implied by photoguy.
As I said I would not make conclusions based just on the fact of sex. But as a part of the whole picture, the fact of being overly affectionate with the person you harly know can indicate a desperate woman.
The search is about finding a wife whose rules coincide with yours and the chance of that happening in meeting just one women is very slim.
We are going in circles here...:cool: As I said I have not seen a woman who would be happy with this particular rule (I mean VM strategy). 99,9% of women who let this happen - COMPROMIZE!!!! (I suggest all of you VM guys print out these words and put them in a frame.) You said that you dont want to compromize yourself, as it reduces the level of outcome, but you expect to find a woman who will do it for you. She does not know you, why should she?
Donna, your reaction definately shows how women such as yourself try to control the man's decision in his search for a wife.
And you think I should have compromized? Give me a single reason why.
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Turboguy wrote:
That was a great answer Donna. My hat is off to you.
LOL, you gotta be kidding.
Bruno, I have to agree with you. What minute difference does it make if you were playing by her rules or by yours.
Well for one, he ended up broken hearted and has to start over from scratch.
You had a wonderful but painful experience. I think you learned a lot from it. I have always believed some things happen as a growing experience for us. Other things happen because they are meant to be.
"You can find books that tell you all is controlled by the placement of the stars, or the ying and yang of being in harmony with the world" Guess we can now add fate to that list as well? Believe it or not, some things happen because of poor choices people make.
I think that you have learned more about what is important for you and in the early part of your tale, you have avoided a disaster.
Kind of like jumping from the frying pan into the fire, eh? One heart break after another.
I think there are too many people who try to analize all the events of the romantic world by some stupid book they read or some stupid rule they have created that they think controls the fate of mankind.
Control the fate of mankind? Where did you get that from? Geez, aren't we jumping a little ahead of ourselves here? Just because you may think a book is stupid, doesn't mean it is any less valid or accurate.
Life is more than about being an alpha male, playing by the males rules, being a macho, gung ho jerk or a wuss.
Don't think my post said anything about being an alpha male, being macho, a gung ho jerk, a wuss or by playing by the males rules. I believe if you re-read it you will find I said to play by YOUR rules and that you are the KEY to your destiny.
Yeah, great answer Donna, lol
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deden
they do have sex, she's all over him like a cheap suit as was originally implied by photoguy.
As I said I would not make conclusions based just on the fact of sex. But as a part of the whole picture, the fact of being overly affectionate with the person you harly know can indicate a desperate woman.
I couldn't agree more about drawing conclusions based just on the fact of sex. However, there are guys who write to women for months on end and feel they know each other very well. They meet and the chemistry is great, they date and during this dating process they have sex (obviously not on the first date). And you are so ready to agree that she is all over him like a cheap suit? No, just because it doesn't fit into what you would do or accept does not mean that it was not right for them. Who are we to say they should't have sex within the first seven days and if they do, she is all over him like a cheap suit.
The search is about finding a wife whose rules coincide with yours and the chance of that happening in meeting just one women is very slim.
We are going in circles here...:cool: As I said I have not seen a woman who would be happy with this particular rule (I mean VM strategy). 99,9% of women who let this happen - COMPROMIZE!!!! (I suggest all of you VM guys print out these words and put them in a frame.) You said that you dont want to compromize yourself, as it reduces the level of outcome, but you expect to find a woman who will do it for you. She does not know you, why should she?
No, again you are misinterpreting what I said, I said she is free to make her own decisions, play by her own rules and is free to move on if she doesn't like his.
Donna, your reaction definately shows how women such as yourself try to control the man's decision in his search for a wife.
And you think I should have compromized? Give me a single reason why.
No, again you are incorrect in your understanding of my post. I said the guy should not compromise in his rules for the women he is seeking as a wife. I could care less if you compromise or not. This board is primarily for helping MEN with meeting RW, not helping RW married to Foriegn men to decide whether they should or should not have compromised. I think they have boards and forums for russian women to discuss whether you should or should not have compromised is choosing Mr. Pedro. Maybe you should seek your answer there.
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The search is about finding a wife whose rules coincide with yours and the chance of that happening in meeting just one women is very slim.
Here, i cannot fully agree... when i have meet Galina, she have seem meet all my rules... and the stay was 3 week long...
Really, meeting several woman is almost only possible when you meet woman locally... time is needed for know someone... and due to the distance and trip, we have not these time...
These who meet several woman have not the time to know them really and the choice will be more hazardous... if you meet one enough long time, you can say after if she is the right of not...
Of course, women can lie or game your own rules without really agree them... Desesperate woman use so method... they try to be what you wish because she wish marry...
Meeting only one woman is not a bad choice... if you have some reserve plan in case that it is not working...
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Deden,
You completely missed the point of those multiple choice questions. The point is that there are dozens of real answers to those two questions. Acknowledge it. Rather than just A through D, there are actually many more answers - lots of variety.
Bruno is right about your black and white view of 'rules'. It comes down to respect, flexibility, compromise or holding strictly to your own values, depending on what issue you're dealing with as a couple.
All of your life you meet women. Consider that when a guy chooses to visit a small number of women. Or, to use your condescending tone, 'Get a clue about the fact that the VO strategy can work for some people', rather than assuming it's an inferior strategy. I think both strategies have pitfalls. Neither one is perfect. Take a look at my multiple choice answers and get a clue about the reality. The reality is there are many possible reasons and motivations for a particular behavior.
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Seriously Doug, get on the clue bus.
Clue #1
"If she f&%ks you in the first week, it means:
a) She has never met an amazing stud like you.
b) She is so horny she would behave that way with anyone.
c) Her goal is to relocate, no matter what it requires.
d) You are her soul mate. She has finally found you!! Yup."
How about sex is natural when you are physically attracted to someone? Read some books on women and attraction.
Sure, see answer 'b'. No doubt about it- sex can be normal, and the other possible answers can also be 'normal'. You cannot always be sure what the correct answer is in the first week of dating, and that is especially true for determining the answer for others. Use a greater capacity of your brain.[/b]
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I agree with photo guy. There are more reasons people have sex and any of those could be a right answer. It could also be.
5. There is nothing but re-runs on tv tonight
6. You sorta seem like you haven't had sex in months and she feels sorry for you.
7. Her boyfriend got laid and she wants to get even.
8. She hasn't had a chance for sex in a long time and doesn't want to miss the chance.
9. She is like us guys and goes after anything that walks.
10. The doctors told her sex is good for her.
11. She has secred desires for a child and keeps trying.
12. Her TV isn't working
13. She has no where else to sleep. (I had this happen to me for real with a russian gal who came to a social from out of town)
And lots more. Some people seem to think they have the actions of people down to a rule. People are very complex. There is no one who fully understands what goes on with people and their relationships.
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Some people seem to think they have the actions of people down to a rule. People are very complex. There is no one who fully understands what goes on with people and their relationships.
one of the more intelligent remarks i've read in awhile.
i've never claimed to know anything completely.
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Some people seem to think they have the actions of people down to a rule. People are very complex. There is no one who fully understands what goes on with people and their relationships.
one of the more intelligent remarks i've read in awhile.[/quote]
Some people here at RWD DO THINK they completely understand what is going on with other people and their relationships. ...It's bizarre.
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Hey Guys,
A quick note.
It is all about economy for me. I have a life outside of moderating RWD. To the extent I need to come on the board to clean up after others, I grow both weary and aggravated at the inconvenience - particularly when I have been more than patient with my requests and reminders for civility.
There comes a point when the aggravation of cleaning up other's messes outweighs my sense of duty to making this a place for ALL.
You guys are riding close to the edge - VERY close.
Knock it off.
PM me if you have anything further to say.
- Dan
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Yes, boys and girls look at what I've done. I resurrected the thread of threads
(I am still looking for the original age difference thread) Moby is still in time out
(I think) but I can hear his feet running frantically in this direction. When he
comes back he can present his case and opinion
:D
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There are more than two Strategies of finding and meeting a woman
for international marriages but there are TWO primary strategies.
I will start another thread on some of the other strategies.
They are meet one girl or meet many girls
Each side has it's risks and rewards and I usually tell people to use
what works for them, their situation and their personalities
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Moby is still in time out
(I think) but I can hear his feet running frantically in this direction. When he
comes back he can present his case and opinion
:D
LOL, I think you are right his ears will be pricking up psychopathically sensing this topic has resurface and will be scampering on his way here with the utmost urgency :D
Well in the meantime I will throw my hat in the ring.
Time over again I think I would have preferred to get to doing the meet many strategy far sooner. Thinking back though to a newbie I think I would have been overwhelmed and struggled with it. There tends to be a specific process to it that is more involving than meet one to my mind. So I think meet one is easier for the newbie to grasp but not as likely to succeed. It's basically a probability game and the higher number of girl you meet the better the odds. Of course some guys get lucky and meet a good and attractive girl first time, but that isn't often. Some think they have and later find out it's not as they had hoped.
Some people I think are probably better at determining if a girl might go well with them in a relationship before meeting but even then there is the chemistry thing. I think also that some guys can bring up the girls more quickly. Some guys are above average in looks so will garner more interest. Some guys I think understand how dating sites work better than others. So a guy that knows that on say a site like Fdate there will be so many profiles where the woman will no longer be interested, stopped following days ago, scammers, fake profiles put in to make up the numbers, girls looking for particular guy, etc, etc. So will know who to bother with and who not to or perhaps just mass spam everybody.
So while on the surface Visit many sounds like the best idea and it probably is but only if the guy can get it to work.
The other option to all of this of course is what Japs is doing is to go out and live/stay out there and date more naturally one after another. So not so much visiting but living and dating as you go.
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VNMO
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I sure my hasband will have something to say to adivise well
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Before moving to FSU for extended period of time , I would do visit one approach, any woman will value will run the other way if she found out she was on a list of 10 women you will see .
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I sure my hasband will have something to say to adivise well
[/quote
If a man told you , that you were one of the many women he was visiting, how would you react?
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I sure my hasband will have something to say to adivise well
Welcome back! We know what your husband, Moby, will say. He is strictly a visit one woman at a time kind of guy.
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I'm sure my husband will have something to say as well.
I'm 100% sure of it. It's interesting that you spotted one of his pet hot
button topics while browsing the site. Ti molodetz ;D.
We spend a lot of time arguing about politics. So I thought I would resurrect
a few forum related topics. When I saw this topic in the gathering dust I
bumped it up.
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Before moving to FSU for extended period of time , I would do visit one approach, any woman will(sic) value will run the other way if she found out she was on a list of 10 women you will see .
So exactly how many women 'with' value have you nipped so far? If you say more than 'one', the obvious question then is - who found out who valued less eventually between the two of you, I wonder?
So Bill would like to resurrect a dead topic, wrote the title in CAPS, no less, and inserted the word 'versus'.
Have at it fellas!
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So Bill would like to resurrect a dead topic, wrote the title in CAPS,
no less, and inserted the word 'versus'.
Have at it fellas!
The One vs Many debate is on every third thread at the forum
it's hardly dead. I figured having it here would keep all those
not named Moby arguing about it here rather than 20 other
places.
Lastly,
I resurrected the thread, I didn't start it or name it.
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Before moving to FSU for extended period of time , I would do visit one approach, any woman will value will run the other way if she found out she was on a list of 10 women you will see .
It doesn't work exactly like this.
Especially if there is a go between
Or if you have upper game.
Or like a swedish guy here you make a campaign but before you warn each girl you are visiting many.
Every three possibilities I wrote have been field tested.
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Once, when preparing for a WMVM trip, in one of my last messages to all the gals, I specified 3 week long time slots (that would occur after I had met 10-12 women) and asked each to note which ones would and would not work for her.
Not a single one of the women backed out at that point or even complained.
One gal in particular in her reply said: What, only 3 women, that's not even a good competition!
She had not realized there were more than 3 women vying for the three spots.
Anyway, she never once mentioned this during our time together and did make the final 3.
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Another time, I was making a return trip to spend a month with only one gal whom I had spent quality time with on a prior WMVM. She and the others knew I was visiting many (because they were not stupid), but none complained about it.
So on this second trip, she found the apartment for me.
After we were settled in the first day, she asked me if she should go home the next day so I would be free to meet other women.
I told her: I am only here to see you for the entire month. She was probably surprised and relieved but, as I recall, she showed no real emotion one way or the other.
I will remind oldsters here and newbies that the gals I met were all over age 35.
The reaction of young gals (and some older ones) still experiencing the 'Prom Queen" syndrome would probably be different.
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The reaction of young gals (and some older ones) still experiencing the 'Prom Queen" syndrome would probably be different.
Yes, very true, women start to be more forgiving when they approach 30, prior to that........
There is women i say that i have no interest in a relationship, but happy to do a friends with benefits relationship (sexual), and if it goes somewhere serious after that, then so be it, this is within under 5 messages. Then there are other women where i wouldn't dare say anything like that , i make them feel special and commit. It depends on the type of women , i don't go into relationships to date someone i would get in the West easily, hence why i ended some relationships, they had no rive to be better, just young, and pretty face.
It doesn't work exactly like this.
Especially if there is a go between
Or if you have upper game.
Or like a swedish guy here you make a campaign but before you warn each girl you are visiting many.
Every three possibilities I wrote have been field tested.
Pat, it depends on the type of woman you meet, i like Math, so i will use numbers, if you are a 9 for example, and you want another 9 or 10, it will be a struggle for a woman to be willing to accept. But sure, you can get many 6's to 7's willing to do it (just like how i tell women i just want sexual meetsup)
I think your method work great, but struggle when trying to get the best value for money, just like doing something exceptional in life, you need to go full-out at the get go. I been in FSU for maybe 7 or 8 months now, and there hasn't been one woman who made me say 'wow', it is easy to get mediocre women, but wow women, are rare, and need a lot of commitment
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happy to do a friends with benefits relationship (sexual), and if it goes somewhere serious after that, then so be it
All my advice to others is assuming that they don't live there.
If you live there with boots on the ground then my advice would
be to meet ladies, date and see what develops.
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I will remind oldsters here and newbies that the gals I met were all over age 35.
If you look at it purely from a supply and demand perspective, you
will find a large quantity of women who are over 35, thin, educated,
who are reasonable and who desire a marriage and family compared
to the local men who are looking for marriage and a family with a
woman who is over 35 - 40 and older.
If you are seeking a woman under 30 then there are plenty of local
men that are seeking those women as well. So as for the supply and
demand aspect of seeking a quality woman for marriage, there is an
abundance of women over that age who desire marriage and a family
and a lack of high quality local men that are seeking the same.
That is the sweet spot. If you are a divorced Western man seeking to
find a woman over 35-40 something then you will find many excellent
very high quality women. If you are looking for a 25 year old then you
will face a ton of local competition especially for the high quality girls.
If you are young and exceptional yourself and can live in the FSU then
you have a good opportunity. If you are older and not living in the FSU
then you should pursue the excellent ladies over 35.
That's my two kopecks
Bill
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All my advice to others is assuming that they don't live there.
If you live there with boots on the ground then my advice would
be to meet ladies, date and see what develops.
Prior to spending extended period of time in FSU, i was taking short trips, and did the visit one approach. But depends on the connection
If you are looking for a 25 year old then you
will face a ton of local competition especially for the high quality girls.
Very true, but locals are a lot of talk. I remember when my gf at the time, brought her female friend. She was around 18 (my gf was also 18). The girl met a new guy, her first boyfriend, i asked some questions, one being, what was his perspective that a woman works. Her response was, that her boyfriend thought a man should provide, and a woman does not work, i asked about his work, he helped his mum, was not studying. The women i dated, would tell me a lot of men TALK, but when it comes to actions, they don't provide, not because they can't, but not willing to work hard, too focused on money, when money is not that much, they don't pursue it further. Something my tattoo artist also said yesterday to me. I think as a woman matures a bit more, she starts to understand, talking and doing is two different things.
FSU is the land of talking, where women claim to be soul deep, full of love etc, and men talk about being the alpha male, loving their woman till the day they die. In western culture women talk less about love, and men don't talk about providing (split the bill etc).
If a man comes here, i suggest he proves that he is more than talk, a woman will appreciate that. They are tired of men talking about providing, small gestures mean a lot. For example, if you met her, she tells you she just came out of work, waiting for the bus to home, order her a taxi home, stuff like that. Small gifts, you don't need to buy an Iphone X, but make her life easier. If she is ill, offer to go the the pharmacy with her, and get her medicine, and leave shortly after (Show her there was no ulterior motive, you just want her to be healthy and happy).
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I realize now that the best course of action is to visit a few in different cities if things work out that way. Granted it will probably be 2-3 in Kiev or Moscow but if the stars align and you do Lviv, Kiev and Odessa - that would be ideal.
Once upon a time I went to see one lady in Kiev and three days later went out of town then back to Kiev. I was walking with another lady in an area far away from where the first lady and I hung out at. Of course we run into the first lady. She didn't make a scene but worse - she just gave me a sad somber look that killed me. i wish she would have screamed and yelled. I suppose there is no way around it. I tell myself they are probably hosting other people too...
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If you look at it purely from a supply and demand perspective, you
will find a large quantity of women who are over 35, thin, educated,
who are reasonable and who desire a marriage and family compared
to the local men who are looking for marriage and a family with a
woman who is over 35 - 40 and older.
If you are seeking a woman under 30 then there are plenty of local
men that are seeking those women as well. So as for the supply and
demand aspect of seeking a quality woman for marriage, there is an
abundance of women over that age who desire marriage and a family
and a lack of high quality local men that are seeking the same.
That is the sweet spot. If you are a divorced Western man seeking to
find a woman over 35-40 something then you will find many excellent
very high quality women. If you are looking for a 25 year old then you
will face a ton of local competition especially for the high quality girls.
If you are young and exceptional yourself and can live in the FSU then
you have a good opportunity. If you are older and not living in the FSU
then you should pursue the excellent ladies over 35.
That's my two kopecks
Bill
Excellent post.
And avoid girls under 28 for a marriage and life in the western countries.
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Welcome back! We know what your husband, Moby, will say. He is strictly a visit one woman at a time kind of guy.
Becoz he wize man
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Excellent post.
And avoid girls under 28 for a marriage and life in the western countries.
I agree, unless you are a youngster yourself. I posted elsewhere that
women's brains are still actually developing until age 25. Giving a girl
a few years after her brain develops to make a life long decision is
the reasonable way to go.
There is a age thread somewhere, I will find it and ask for your thoughts
there as well.
Age Difference thread with discussions dating back to 2005
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=32.625
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Following the VM approach I was able to enjoy what I had missed as a young man, because I married too young.
Did this harm the women ? I really don't think so. I never talked about marriage with any of them so, even if there were hope, it could not have been very strongly grounded.
I seriously doubt if even 0.5% of the women were sorry that they had spent time with me.
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We have many men who've been successful visiting ONE and likewise
we've had many men from this forum who've been successful visiting
many.
My advice is to do what fits your goals, situation and personality
but don't mix tactics from visiting one with a visit many trip.
If you are going to meet many don't write them 40 letters, have
several phone and Skype calls etc. What you are doing is a visit
one tactic of totally getting to know her before you meet and she
WILL expect you to visit only her since you spent so much time.
However, if you say "Hey Suzy do you wanna get a cup of coffee?"
Suzy has zero expectations from you. She is meeting you in a
coffee shop to see if you are interesting or not. If you hit if off
then you try to meet again. If you don't then no harm, no foul.
You would NEVER do it the other way. Write one letter to Martha
and then jump on a plane to visit ONLY her. So don't mix tactics
from different strategies.
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In this day and age, with v.chat available to most...
Why are some older members advising to spend a lot of money on a 'pig in a poke'.
A least v.chat and filter ladies out you know will not be your cup of tea.
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I disagree, to a degree.
No one can really give advice on relationships, because what individuals want in a relationship varies. From reading this forum, I get the impression that what most men here seek is a woman to whom they are physically attracted, and anything beyond that is just gravy. The fact marriages to FSUW occur quickly, without a common language, or culture, reinforces my perception. However, beauty fades with time, both in terms of getting used to what your wife's looks, and the ravages of time. Most of you are shallow. :P
I do agree that "WOVO vs WMVM" is down to personal preference and a man's personality. A man who doesn't date widely at home, and is not charismatic, probably isn't going to succeed with a "WMVM" approach. Nor will a man who doesn't enjoy dating a variety of women at home. I think this is what moby misses.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
I think that he intentionally ignores the fact that many many men here at
this very forum were successful VM. He also totally mischaracterizes how
it works and what happens. He claims to have tried VM and if he did it the
way he mischaractrizes it then of course he failed.
[edit I removed part of my opinion about Moby]
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'pig in a poke'.
Pig in a poke: English colloquialisms such as turn out to be a pig in a poke
or buy a pig in a poke mean that something is sold or bought without the
buyer knowing its true nature or value, especially when buying without
inspecting the item beforehand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke
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In this day and age, with v.chat available to most...
Why are some older members advising to spend a lot of money on a 'pig in a poke'.
A least v.chat and filter ladies out you know will not be your cup of tea.
No, if you are going to visit many then you don't video chat with them before
your trip. They will expect you to visit only them. That is a visit ONE tactic not
a visit many tactic.
You meet them in person for real over a cup of tea or coffee and decide if you
feel a mutual connection or chemistry. This fits some peoples personality.
People thankfully are not all the same.
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I think that he intentionally ignores the fact that many many men here at this very forum were successful VM. He also totally mischaracterizes how it works and what happens. He claims to have tried VM and if he did it the way he mischaractrizes it then of course he failed.
Moby has enormous difficulty with things that disagree with his views, opinions and perceptions. This subject is no exception.
I disagree that moby has "enormous difficulty with things that disagree with his views". I disagree with many of his views. I don't view the fact he disagrees with me as an enormous difficulty on his (or my) part We have different life experiences, so of course we will have different perspectives. I just stop responding at some point on the same subject, rather than beat a dead horse.
I think moby is someone who has set views, which is not unusual given his age and life experience (just from living six decades), and perhaps is inflexible (I don't know, as I don't know him). He also can be responding to contrary approaches to elicit responses.
As for failure, it more likely is due to personality, and how one "dates" women generally.
Now, back to discussing issues rather than personalities.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
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NOTE: This is my opinion, although I state it like it's a fact, this is my opinion.
I spent 9 years looking for my wife. I readily admit that I made a zillion
mistakes and I began refining my techniques and tactics. So it wouldn't
be unwise to consider my opinions with that in mind.
The wrong way to pursue a visit many strategy is what I call using the wrong
tactics. If you read the trip reports of a great number of men who visit many
they spent years and years at doing it with the wrong tactics in my opinion.
They tried to develop something with a number of girls before embarking on
their trips. Then they visited with plans to meet and date all of them
simultaneously. Then sure enough the girls didn't value their time and played
games.
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I spent zero time looking for a wife.
Although I've seen my teens make connections via Facebook or whatever, it always 'starts' with a first date that either goes somewhere or not. Ain't that different here IMO.
I always got in trouble when I dated concurrently, and never woke up one morning saying to myself 'I'm going to go find a wife'.
Never met a woman that expressed an instant desire to get married either. That would have scared the crap out of me, la 'run Forrest run!'
That's just me though, which is all that really counts. For the rest of ya, whatever floats your boat. Just know that there are other options out there.
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I went on several WMVM trips to FSU.
I never made any mistakes, like Big Bill's zillion.
I never got into trouble when I dated concurrently, like BC did.
Speaking of zillion . . .
One blonde to another: I have had sex with a Brazilian.
Second blonde: Wow, how many is that?
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I spent zero time looking for a wife.
Good for you!
I found my first wife at a garage sale, I certainly wasn't looking for one.
I was really unhappy with my first wife for years and years. After my
divorce, I spent a time sowing wild oats dating women who were too
young and/or had serious problems (I dated a stripper), but one thing
that I was determined that my next wife was going to be the real deal.
I didn't plan out finding the first wife, but I've done endless planning
to find the second one and I'm glad I did.
I've been a salesman for 31 years, I make goals then plans to achieve
them. It's just part of who I am, or what I've become.
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(I dated a stripper)
Did she have her own pole ?
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Did she have her own pole ?
No, she used the one at her work, when with me I lent her mine.
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This is from Albert a member that hasn't posted in years.
I borrowed this from another thread. I don't like communicating
as much as he does before on a visit many trip.
You are, and will, get a lot of different advice based on the personalities
of the posters. Some are logical about this endeavor and some are
emotional and completely irrational when it comes to women. Some can
correspond and meet with several women on each trip and some can
only focus on one gal at a time.
Some are very organized and can communicate very efficiently via e-mail
and phone with multiple women at a time and not be fazed by it.
Others are very poor writers and talkers, and have to limit their
correspondence to a few messages before running out of things to say.
Some have dated very little in their home country, have very low sex
drives and go ga ga when they get the gal to hold their hand or kiss
them on the cheek and are instantly in love.
Some put these gals on a pedestal and swear that even the ones with
children are virgins. Others see them as just women.
What is the appropriate method for you depends on which group of
guys best describes your own personality, abilities and experience.
My advice:
1) Diversify. This is the sane procedure for financial planning, and the
sane method for meeting women in far off places. Putting all your eggs
in one basket is recipe for financial failure and for horror stories in trip
reports.
2) Learn how to write and how to manage volume correspondence in
an efficient manner. Prewrite 10 sequential letters to send to the gals.
Of course do this on your word processor. Then when you answer each
gals' sequential messages, just emend your prewritten message to
customize it for each gal.
3) Limit your correspondence time. Get your trip dates planned.
Choose your gals from whatever source . . . . agencies, websites, your
own advertisements, etc. Then about 6-8 weeks before the trip make
your contacts with the gals. Use your 10 prewritten messages during
this time.
4) Get a lot of experience meeting women in your home area.
Romantic dating is best, but even just interacting with women on any
basis is good and will help get you over the ga ga feelings that many
guys have when they get face to face with a pretty gal.
5) Be realistic regarding age and beauty. Try to stay within some years
of your own age and don't trade-up too many notches from your own
looks.
6) Don't get at all attached to any of the gals based on the correspondence
before meeting.
7) Try to get off the beaten path, provided you can line up 10 or more gals to
see in your chosen target city.
8) Control as much of the trip yourself as you can. Do as much as you can
yourself without letting an agency dictate your actions.
9) Either learn the language of the country you will visit, or limit yourself to
gals who can speak your own language.
FSU women are not more educated, more beautiful, nor more intelligent
than women in your own area. There are only two significant difference
between the women in FSU and those in your own city.
a) The FSU women tend to be more slender for each age grouping. This
may or may not continue after their arrival in the west.
b) Younger and better looking FSU women are simply more available to you.
For every young and beautiful gal you see in the FSU, there is an identical
one in the west. But the one in the west will not date you, the one in the FSU will.
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Kevin hasn't posted here in quite some time but I thought that I would pull up
one of his old posts. I checked at risk of my own personal peril (Angel Eyes would
Keeeel me) his website is still up and running.
Hey guys I wanted to point out a recurring problem that I see at least 3-4 times a year with international dating.
We know that every lady is looking for a good husband and every men is looking for a good wife.
Fact: There is a chance that a lady/Men is going to be cordisponding with someone else during the dating process. Plain and simple everyone keeps looking until the find the right person...
We also know that most often the ladies are going to show the most interested to the men who meets her in person then the men who writes a lot and never comes. The ladies are aware that less then 2 percent of the men who write will show up and they understand that more then once the men they meet isn't the men they are looking for. A photograph/profile is known to lie. (I've seen it all from both sides) At the same time you are a reading this lets flip the coin over to the men's side. The men who come to Ukraine typically write 10-50 ladies and meet 5-10 ladies per visit.
The truth is MEN are meeting more Women then Women meet Men. Very few men/women write only one and visit only one. I have seen men come to my office to meet with 5-10 ladies that he been writing love letters too and fall in love with a lady who happen to drop by the office that wasn't even on his list. Leaving a group of ladies wondering what happen to the "love".
FACT: More often Men pick who they are going to marry in Ukraine..
FACT: Men/Women do not know until the meet if they are right for each other.
Internet love is a myth. You are never sure until you meet in person.
If you are writing a lady, do not think she is only writing you unless she tells you so. Then try to verify it with the agency if possible. The women do not believe you are only writing them either. Keep it simple and open until you meet in person.
FACT: Do not fall in love with a photograph.
DO NOT blame the agency/marriage broker/Friend if you are writing a group of ladies and one of them meets someone else prior to your visit or after a visit and falls in love it not anyones fault.. . Nobody has no control over the ladies decision on who she is going to fall in love with or decide to start a one-to-one relationship. The only time the agency can be held accountable if they are aware that a lady is engaged/married. Consider every men/lady to be dating someone else until you are sure otherwise.
Fact: Most ladies in their agencies have an active dating life while they are waiting for a husband.
Fact: Most men in agencies have a active dating life while they are waiting for a wife.
It is a myth that agency employees can read minds and emotions.
A honest agencies is going to tell the client what they know about a lady and any comments the lady makes about the client. They are also going to tell the lady about the men. But no matter how honest a agency is we can not make or even hope of influencing a lady/men mind or heart. I've tried. :<..
I wanted to give every reader something to think out that's in the back of everyone's thoughts but not often spoken about..
Thanks
Kevin Hayes
http://www.khersongirls.com (http://www.khersongirls.com/)
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Kevin's words are still valid today.
Meet as many gals as you can.
The women are doing the same.
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Kevin's words are still valid today.
Meet as many gals as you can.
The women are doing the same.
As well as meeting women, something I dont read in trip reports often is making friends while on trips. On my last trip to Russia I met 3 people unrelated to the woman I travelled to met (2 male and one female). They have now become great friends and we chat on a weekly basis. One friendship lead to being introduced to another woman who they thought would be a good match and that lead to an holiday romance while travelling the length of Vietnam together as a group.
Having two close Russian male friends has been a huge help when I need advice on Russian women.
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(http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50859444252_2efb1844f0_z.jpg)
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As well as meeting women, something I dont read in trip reports often is making friends while on trips. On my last trip to Russia I met 3 people unrelated to the woman I travelled to met (2 male and one female). They have now become great friends and we chat on a weekly basis. One friendship lead to being introduced to another woman who they thought would be a good match and that lead to an holiday romance while travelling the length of Vietnam together as a group.
Having two close Russian male friends has been a huge help when I need advice on Russian women.
That is indeed true Davo, it's something I didn't approach right in the past years out in the FSU. I approached it too much in terms of finding a woman to either be in a romantic relationship with or not. Instead of getting caught up too much in whether the woman was into me or not I should have considered friendship more. Like you say one contact can lead onto another and also be more fun as well as help each other out.
That said the whole FSU dating scene can throw up some odd stuff for the newbie to grapple with so it can be hard to not want to figure out what is going on, but in the end just looking for friendship is probably the better option.
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I had many business friends in FSU, both men and women.
But when I started my search for a permanent woman, I did not mention any of this to those prior friends.
Reason: I did not want them to get involved in setting me up on dates, because they would inevitably tell the women more than I wanted them to know relative to my background (as they thought they knew it) and particularly their perception of my financial position.
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Reason: I did not want them to get involved in setting me up on dates
Good call for countless reasons.
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Once you decide you are going to pursue an FSUW this is your next decision.
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From KenC, (much of this is from Leslied, who wrote the tablets of stone) I did some editing
for length, clarity and grammar.
Beginning of Ken's points (edited by Bill)
#1- You cannot compare "rules" used in dating AM to dating RW. The two worlds are
complete opposite. Our American society has really screwed this one up totally. We are
convinced by feminist BS and the American media that women are superior to men.
In America men are cast as weak and silly whereas women are cast as strong and logical.
Huh? It is because of this type of thinking that AM have become "pussified" and the women
have become masculine and dominant. Women control the dating game here in America.
In Russia, the tables are turned completely opposite. The number of women available to date
far exceeds the available men. This is because of the high rate of men in the military, alcoholics,
high death rate for men and the fact that a large number of men are eliminated from dating just because they cannot afford to do it. The men control the dating game in fsu countries.
As a man, you need to change your way of thinking while pursuing a RW. I am
not advocating to be demeaning or harsh in any way. You have the control, use it to your
benefit. We AM go to Russia for a better deal, not the same ole same ole.
#2-You are applying "relationship rules" to first time meetings. No matter how much
you corresponded with the woman you met in Ukraine, you still were meeting her for the
first time. You have no "real" relationship with her. You have a virtual or fantasy relationship
until you spend time together. I don't know about you, but I would date an AW for quite a
while before I had an exclusive relationship with her. And even then, until I married, I
wouldn't account for every second of my day or night to her. Hell, I still have my time to myself inside my marriage.
You are simply putting the cart before the horse with this type of thinking. Guess what?
The women are trying you out too! You go over and meet a few women and see if you
click, just as they keep meeting men (American or otherwise). It is a natural way of
mate selection. There is nothing devious or underhanded about it. Everyone
(men & women) want the best for themselves. It is human, no, it is animal nature to
do this. Ever hear of the survival of the fittest? It works for humans too. The best
men get the best women.
Don't take yourself out of the game before you board the plane. Don't settle for the first
woman that wouldn't even have you! (The lack of affection thing) To use this process
correctly for your benefit, use your first trip or trips to introduce yourself to women.
I used an agency. They were great for the introductions. I met some very nice women.
I admit that I was smitten with my now wife Lena before my trip. But I would not allow that to interfere with meeting other women. She not only accepted it, but expected it. She knew the drill and didn't play any games either. She would never have expected me to just meet her, just as I would never expect her to be exclusive to me.
Now as my time on my first trip wore on, it became apparent to Lena and I that we did have something special. I stopped seeing others and zeroed in on her. When I left, I never promised
any exclusivity nor did she ask for it. That is something that comes over time, not before you meet. End of Kens points (Edited by Bill)