Hopefully--Ukraine's revolution of dignity can shake the Russians out of Ukraine forever!!
History suggests this won't happen. I don't think Russia wants Ukraine, though some may want Kyiv, as it figures prominently in Russian fairy tales, is the city of the founders of Rus', etc. Russia will have trouble with its regions within its own vast country, it doesn't need more land.
I don't think Ukraine's revolution is one of dignity. They have had two failed revolutions which did not shake the strength of the oligarchs, or lessen entrenched political corruption. Governance is a mess.
I also think that the cultural ties between Central/Eastern Ukraine and Russia are so strong, Russians will always be tied to Ukraine, and vice versa. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it goes back centuries.
http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850 (http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850)
I don't think Russia wants Ukraine,
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.
Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.
Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.
Yes I suspect Ukraine will always be 'tied' to Russia but as an observation and I am seeing it like Jay as an outsider. Ukraine after two failed revolutions has a greater sense of nationhood than before. I am not saying this from any article but more from being in the country.
Will the people of Ukraine triumph over the ogliarchs that is hard to say, but I suspect time is on the side of the people.
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.
Rubbish, rubbish and more rubbish
The Donbas "separatists" are Russian military ie it is a Russian invasion that has disrupted Ukraine
don't use Kremlin language, when you write pro-Kremlin articles
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.
...
It is a proxy cold war and the Ukrainian people suffer for it.
...the streets were lined with grandmothers holding flowers in their hands...
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.
http://michael-hudson.com/2014/09/losing-credibility-the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/ (http://michael-hudson.com/2014/09/losing-credibility-the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/)
It is a proxy cold war and the Ukrainian people suffer for it.
Oleh Tyahnybok was a marginal player, at best, in Maidan, and held little power in the new government.
The Czechs and Slovaks had no opportunity to "cannibalize" each other, because the communist party clamped down on all dissent. National expression is not allowed in communist systems of government. They also didn't have foreign agents fomenting such discord.
Finally, the Czechs and Slovaks did divorce after the collapse of communism.
So what is the purpose of your link? He had little to do with Maidan.
You haven't explained why it is blasphemy. You do realize, the Prague Spring was not about changing the course of the country, don't you?
No, that wasn't what Prague Spring was really about. No democratization. That's a romantic Western concept. The same thing occurred in the Ukrainian FSR in 1972, with the same result, though tanks weren't required.
On April 5th 1968, Dubček embarked on a programme of reform that included amendments to the constitution of Czechoslovakia that would have brought back a degree of political democracy and greater personal freedom.
After the initial dogmatic and sectarian period, when the Stalinist ‘builders’ of communism dominated politics with the far-reaching economic, social and moral failures that entailed, the communist experiment in Czechoslovakia was given another chance in the late 1960s, when a movement for democratization and modernization emerged. The symbol and living legend of this movement, known as “socialism with a human face”,
...Your post has no back up. Tyahnybok has such "pull" in Ukraine that he garnered 1.16% of the vote in the presidential election, and his party won less than 5% of the vote in the 2014 elections, therefore, he does not even hold a seat in the Rada. So yeah, he has had a huge influence in Ukraine. :rolleyes:
Ukraine did not ban Russian on its territory. We've been through this before. There is Russian media, Russian language schools, Russian is used predominantly in business. Services are provided in Russian, even today, in Ukrainian government. The only change was that Yanukovych had promised Russian would be given official language status, meaning government documents would be printed in Russian, as they now are printed only in Ukrainian. The government reversed this. So whatever source you are reading on this issue is deeply flawed. There are even Russian language schools in that hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism, L'viv.
Go to Ukraine sometime - Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odesa, Dnipropetrovsk even L'viv. You will hear that "banned" Russian on the streets everywhere. In Kyiv, if you speak Russian anywhere, you will be answered in Russian. If you speak Ukrainian you will be answered in Ukrainian. The sky is falling for Russian speakers! Poor Russians. So oppressed in Ukraine.
“I always said before and I repeat this again now, that, the Verkhovna rada’s decision to ban Russian as a regional language was a mistake. I stressed many times during my presidential campaign that this law would never get my approval,” he said. Poroshenko expressed hope that “never again in the history of Ukraine will the issue of language or culture endanger national unity”.
The Ukrainian army is financed to defend the borders of Ukraine. Borders which were breached by Russia. Do you think the US would just stand by and allow, say, the Chinese army to invade the US, occupy all of Texas, and stand by while they implemented plans to take the rest of the country?
LOL. Really now?!? And this is solely according to you, or the people of Czech/Slovakia?
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/ (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/)
According to experts who study comparative communism. There are whole scholarly journals devoted to this study. So your link isn't really of interest to me.
I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different.
I never posted it did.
"I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different."
BO, the person you’re arguing with is copy/pasting their information from wikipedia
so he has NO THOUGHTS himself on how it is different, he’s just trying to bait you, don’t let him...
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.
Carry on...
I'm wondering what planet you're on GQblues ...
I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..
You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.
Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting
You got that in reverse.
So please explain your point how it is one and the same.
I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..
You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.
Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting
Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.
[Moby, You are delusional!
During the Czech spring and that in Hungary there was no attempt to 'break free' of any Oligarchy. It was a failed attempt to restore freedom and personal rights. For what it is worth both Poland and Ukraine also had uprisings against Communism that were squashed.
Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.
Feel free to list in the post Communist era any patriots to the people of Ukraine.[/font][/size]
THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...Why should I, you have all your own BS.
Ukrainians sought a system / nation that:So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.
1/ Didn't manipulate election results
2/ Allowed Journos to report freely without risk to their lives
3/ Electoral candidates to run campaigns without being poisoned
4/ Freedom to form alliances with nations other than - but not excluding - Russia
Georgiy Gongadze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze)
Small town Politicians - member of the Party of Regions - same party that disavowed Yanukovych
Volodymyr Rybak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak)
THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...
Why should I, you have all your own BS.
So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.
Look at the leaders today and the reality of Ukraine.
What a joke!
A Georgian and a local official, yes they were murdered. However they were not in any way shape or form leaders of Ukraine.
Many have 'disavowed Yanukovych' but it has NOT brought improvement to the country. Ukraine continues because the people are strong
Moby, It is amazing to read how you attempt to change the topic and try to deflect
change the topic and try to deflect from the core points that I and others made.
Oddly enough we are not that far apart in agreement but it is your perverse sense that you want to argue for arguments sakes.
Having a discussion with you is like arguing with a simpleton who happens to be an eel in fact.
No offense to eels, smoked they are quite tasty. You on the other hand leave a bad taste before even meeting. [/font][/size]
an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.
Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting
But here's the most obvious point .. Just over seventy Czechs and Slovaks lost their lives when the Prague Spring was put down ... Remind us how many Ukrainians have died in 2014 ?
Moby, You are delusional!...
LMAO! Msmob's reasons why 2014 maidan is just like Prague Spring:
Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..
Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..
The above is a typical lie of Moby, from some one who does not understand history.
Perhaps calling it a lie is unfair, call it simple ignorance.
The events in Prague were a top down revolution, that was supported by the general population.
Those in Ukraine (Maidan and the Orange Revolution) were protests from the bottom up by the people against the ruling nomenclature and actions they took.
To compare as equal events the one to the other is almost biazare, but than again some are delusional.[/font][/size]
LOL. The go wrestle that with the entire population of Slovakia (since Alexander Dubcek IS (was) a Slovak) and let them know their take on their own history is wrong, and YOU'RE right.
BO, up there in that Canada, did your University have a monthly copy of "Problems of Communism"
it was published by the US State Dept, sick hospital green cover?
you familiar by any chance, it's been published FOR decades back to the 50s/60s
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.
Well, it's hardly blasphemous but they are different.<snip>
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.
Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.
Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.
Phew! Long-winded with way too much noise! However, I'm glad see when all is said and done, you came around and agree. Comparing the two events is akin to comparing a chihuahua to a looney 'toon.
Carry on...
while I was going to college I had a part time entry level job working on the publication, they were located not far from my university
an amazing group of people, I wish I could get my hands on some of the old issues, especially the ones where they predicted the collapse of the CCCP
a lot of ex-soviet bloc intelligentsia/refuseniks worked there, amazing group of people, totally dedicated to "the cause"
I don't really see any equivalent group of people today
I thought you might've encountered it, long gone now I'm afraid
I don't recall ever posting the two events are the same. However, knowing some history, I reject both your, and Jay's assertions, that Dubcek was advocating for freedom. He wasn't.
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.
I met Golitsyn, don’t know if you knew him, possible you even met him?
I thought he was a classic paranoid at the time!
He claimed that Russia would trick the US into thinking the cold war was over, and that the US would eliminate containment, and that Russia would then cripple the US economically and politically.
haha, I mean crazy, paranoid, hehe... wait, what?
no hero ' ....complaint even and NOT respected..
http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union (http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union)
:clapping:
Have a nice weekend, everyone!!! Don't let such a promisingly beautiful days go to waste. Get out and enjoy some sun, fun, activities with friends, family, etc...Life is wonderful!