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Author Topic: Crimea joining Russian Federation  (Read 60771 times)

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Offline GQBlues

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 03:53:12 PM »
Well not exactly GQ, it wasn't until Yanukovych that there was a change of heart....

False as written.

Quote
..."In the 2000s, the government of Ukraine was leaning towards NATO membership, and a deeper cooperation with the alliance was set by the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan signed in 2002. It was later agreed that the question of joining NATO should be answered by a national referendum at some point in the future.[14] In April 2005, Ukraine entered into Intensified Dialogue with NATO,[15] and during the 2008 Bucharest summit NATO declared that Ukraine could become a member of NATO when it wants to join and meets the criteria for accession.[16] However, by 2010 Ukraine had announced that it no longer had NATO membership as a goal under the foreign policy of President Viktor Yanukovych.[17] Ukraine has a close relationship with NATO, and it is the most active member of the Partnership for Peace (PfP) program."

I disagree, at least not based on what is actually written.

1. I made no reference to 'government' of Ukraine but rather 'Ukrainians' themselves (see polls conducted in the wiki page I posted since 2002). The Ukrainian government may have 'leaned' towards membership but that isn't the same as saying the majority of Ukrainians supported the notion.

2. Viktor Yanukovych had nothing whatsoever to do with the population's consensus regarding NATO membership. As a matter of fact, public opinion poll done prior to his presidency in April 2009 supports this assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_NATO_pie_chart.PNG
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Offline jone

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 04:09:29 PM »
I believe that Ukraine should NOT be part of NATO.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 02:16:21 PM »
This is what you get when you threaten Russians.
Whe nthe "new government" took chagre, the Crimea area announced to change the already planned referendum to an earlier date (march 30). In reply the Ukrainian new government labeled the Crimea government as criminals and asked for their arrest.
So what does the Crimean government do? Let themselves be arrested? I do not htink so.
As the Ukrainian government chose to escalate things, the Crimean government decided to make a decree declaring independence and the wish to be part of Russia. In order not to let thing be outside international law too long, the referendum was put forward to May 16.

Had the Ukrainian government respected democracy and the democratic right of the Crimea area to choose their own destination, they woud have had more time to campaign for Crimea to remain part of Ukraine. Their own actions have caused this.


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Offline jone

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2014, 02:59:10 PM »
This is what you get when you threaten Russians.
Whe nthe "new government" took chagre, the Crimea area announced to change the already planned referendum to an earlier date (march 30). In reply the Ukrainian new government labeled the Crimea government as criminals and asked for their arrest.
So what does the Crimean government do? Let themselves be arrested? I do not htink so.
As the Ukrainian government chose to escalate things, the Crimean government decided to make a decree declaring independence and the wish to be part of Russia. In order not to let thing be outside international law too long, the referendum was put forward to May 16.

Had the Ukrainian government respected democracy and the democratic right of the Crimea area to choose their own destination, they woud have had more time to campaign for Crimea to remain part of Ukraine. Their own actions have caused this.

Shadow, your normal lucid statements are not reflected in the above post. 

Lots of misspelling and misquoting of dates.  The referendum is set for March 16th,  8 days from now, not in May. 

And unlike Crimea, deposing Yanukovych was debated in the Rada for three months straight.  (Well, not specifically deposing him, but whether the Rada had any confidence in him and the unilateral decisions he was making.)

The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's own party, was the group that overthrew him. 

There was no such plurality or semblance of democracy in Crimea.  One night they call a session of the government, the next morning Crimea is going to be part of Russia. 

You folks may dismiss this as semantics, but to me, it is substantial. 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Shadow

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2014, 05:13:19 AM »
Shadow, your normal lucid statements are not reflected in the above post. 

Lots of misspelling and misquoting of dates.  The referendum is set for March 16th,  8 days from now, not in May. 

And unlike Crimea, deposing Yanukovych was debated in the Rada for three months straight.  (Well, not specifically deposing him, but whether the Rada had any confidence in him and the unilateral decisions he was making.)

The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's own party, was the group that overthrew him. 

There was no such plurality or semblance of democracy in Crimea.  One night they call a session of the government, the next morning Crimea is going to be part of Russia. 

You folks may dismiss this as semantics, but to me, it is substantial.
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Offline Noch1

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2014, 05:53:26 AM »
Threat title, should be changed to Russia, taking the Crimea  :D
Common sense, Is not so common!

lordtiberius

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 07:29:47 AM »
Ukraine will join NATO after it gets Crimea back probably mid summer next year.

Offline LAman

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 11:32:43 AM »
Ukraine will join NATO after it gets Crimea back probably mid summer next year.

Me thinks you should put that crack pipe down..... :o
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Offline LAman

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2014, 11:44:40 AM »
Couple weeks ago I thought chances were not good for Crimea to join RF but seems like things have been going in another direction. This moving up on voting for referendum from May to March 30 to March 16 reeks of getting the vote the new pro-Russian parliament wants before any kind stabilization in Kiev. The 'Russian 'troops running around Crimea seem to be looking to provoke an engagement with military bases occupied by Ukrainian forces.
Whatever the vote decides, I am sure each side will claim some sort of voting fraud happening if their side loses.

My feeling is March 17 will be the start of upheaval.
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lordtiberius

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 12:19:02 PM »
According to Putin TV, Crimea will be apart of the Moscow province.  Think this sits well with the Russian home front?

Offline Gator

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 01:28:00 PM »
Most everyone seems upset about the Russian occupation of Crimea.  Yet, there is nothing that can be done that would compel Russia to withdraw.   Putin will not withdraw.  This is fait accompli

Is anyone surprised?  Putin got away with it in Georgia.  Only George Bush stood up to him then, and he had too little time remaining to apply pressure on Putin.  Obama took office and essentially told Putin via the Russian Reset that if Russia would help with Syria and Iran it could keep the occupied lands in Georgia. 

In fact Russia's history has always demonstrated great concern about events near its borders.  Stalin's excuse for the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 was to protect Ukrainians living in east and south Poland (at the time Lviv was part of Poland).   So Putin does the same to protect Russians living in Crimea. 


lordtiberius

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 01:45:27 PM »
Wouldn't you agree that Putin's reputation is forever marred?

Offline CanadaMan

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 03:27:47 PM »
Wouldn't you agree that Putin's reputation is forever marred?

RePUTatIoN for what?
Being honest?  :)

Offline Shadow

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 04:13:57 PM »
Most everyone seems upset about the Russian occupation of Crimea.  Yet, there is nothing that can be done that would compel Russia to withdraw.   Putin will not withdraw.  This is fait accompli

Is anyone surprised?  Putin got away with it in Georgia.  Only George Bush stood up to him then, and he had too little time remaining to apply pressure on Putin.  Obama took office and essentially told Putin via the Russian Reset that if Russia would help with Syria and Iran it could keep the occupied lands in Georgia. 

In fact Russia's history has always demonstrated great concern about events near its borders.  Stalin's excuse for the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 was to protect Ukrainians living in east and south Poland (at the time Lviv was part of Poland).   So Putin does the same to protect Russians living in Crimea.
Georgia? You mean that time in 2008 that the Georgian president Saakashvili decided he could use the Beijing Olympics to take South Ossetia in to Georgian hands? I thought it got settled 6 years ago theat Russia did not attack but only reacted to an attack on their forces. Seems that repeated lies are still trying to become the truth.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2014, 04:14:57 PM »
Wouldn't you agree that Putin's reputation is forever marred?
Yes, once things calm down his statues will be put where Lenin used to be.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

lordtiberius

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2014, 07:03:10 PM »
The US military can go it alone.  Russia is a third rate military.  Most of our NATO partners can handle Russia.  But honestly there is no way Russia can win this.  They might get kicked off the Security Council for this.  If this escalates quickly or drags out,  Putin loses and loses all.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2014, 07:39:19 PM »
In such a time like this, has anyone seen or heard from this slacker? I thought this foreign affair expert was chosen as a running mate solely because of his expertise in dealing with *foreign affair*. LOL

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/24/barackobama.joebiden1

This joker is just another liberal slacker getting paid like a typical *Democrat* for doing absolutely nothing.

All these 'foreign affair matters going on, Syria, Iran, North Korea, Libya, Egypt, Israel, now Ukraine/Russia and the dude is nowhere to be seen or heard.

Yup...told you so!

End game. Putin wins!

March 16 a referendum passes and Crimea is slated to annex to Russia. Negotiation ensues but not without the flavor of the usual theatrical * warnings* from our silly President, screaming,

"THIS IS FIRM!!!. We Will not stand for this!!!! Russia have crossed THE REDLINE!!!! This is illegitimate and against Ukraine's Constitution!!!

LOL. Putin smiles....

A couple of days passes by and they make an agreement whereas Crimea stays with Ukraine with an agreement that NATO will not ever take hold in Ukraine - EVER! Russia keeps its ports and establishes a military base within Crimea. Ukraine can marry-up with Euro-economy (whatever that is) but it will have to bear present day value for gas and oil and fully allowing Russia's pipeline though its territory. GazProm takes the US $1 billion as payment for the 2014 1st quarter oil and gas tab.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 07:43:07 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Gator

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2014, 08:00:44 PM »
Georgia? You mean that time in 2008 that the Georgian president Saakashvili decided he could use the Beijing Olympics to take South Ossetia in to Georgian hands? I thought it got settled 6 years ago theat Russia did not attack but only reacted to an attack on their forces. Seems that repeated lies are still trying to become the truth.

You speak the standard Putin line.   My wife says the same, stating that Saakashvili tried to start a war.

After the breakup of the USSR, South Ossetia was part of Georgia (as Crimea was part of Ukraine).  Unlike Crimea, South Ossetia functioned rather independently and was not peaceful.      The area had peacekeepers from Russia and Georgia.  In 2008, Georgia did attack first,  claiming they were "...responding to attacks on its peacekeepers and villages in South Ossetia, and that Russia was moving non-peacekeeping units into the country."  The Georgian attacks occurred on sovereign Georgian land. 

IMO this would be the same as Ukrainian military attacking in force the "non-Russian troops" in Crimea to wrest control.  After watching what happened to Georgian troops, I do not believe Ukraine will be attacking the mystery troops in Crimea.

Russia, not Georgia controls all of South Ossetia today.   Is South Ossetia recognized by the international community as an independent country?

Like the Balkans, the politics are as clear as mud.   

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2014, 12:37:22 AM »
They might get kicked off the Security Council for this.
Please enlighten us on how this would happen, since Russia is a Permanent Member of the Council ::).
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline Wayne

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2014, 06:08:20 AM »
My Wife is afraid the following will happen. Ukrainian TV is already cut off in Crimea. All the communication lines to Crimea come through main land Ukraine. Banks already have put a limit on the amount of money you can withdraw in one day. When Crimea goes to Russia, the banks will be closed for a long time in order to change over to rubles. People are now trying to get US dollars.
 
Electric power and gas lines to Crimea could get cut off. Flights to and from Simferopol Airport are now limited. Train travel is not working. Vehicles are not getting through the check points at Ukraine main land.
 
If the Russian speaking people want to get Russian passports, the wait time will be very long unless you can pay a very high bribe. If you are in the middle of a K-1 or other visa, you will have to start all over again with the US Embassy in Moscow.
 
If you own a vehicle, you will need to get Russian plates. Everything will be a total mess!

Offline calmissile

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2014, 08:02:47 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26510623

A video clip of a family leaving Crimea.  Interesting to see views of someone that is actually there.
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline Muzh

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2014, 08:17:26 AM »
If you would know that your main client is making preparations to close their company, leaving you with an unsettled account that threatens your company, would you wait for the payment date to expire or take precautionary measures?

Governments are NOT run like companies. THANK GOD!!!
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Wayne

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2014, 08:31:32 AM »
Thanks for that video clip, Doug.

Offline Wayne

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2014, 05:41:38 AM »
Yesterday, I spoke on the phone for more than one hour to AFP Correstpondent, Katherine Haddon who is in Simferopol along with partner Richard Sargent. She was at Simferopol Airport yesterday and said that all flights to or from Simferopol are cancelled except those with Moscow.
 
I checked both Turkish Airlines and Ukraine International Airlines websites, and all flights to or from Simferopol are cancelled.
 
Also, the train station in Simferopol is shut down. The roads from Crimea to Ukraine main land are blocked and armed men are controlling who gets through. All the main ports on the Black Sea have been over taken.
 
What happened to this website yesterday?

Offline Wayne

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Re: Crimea joining Russian Federation
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2014, 07:03:44 AM »
More information:

 News  UIA is forced to cancel flights between Kiev and Simferopol
 Simferopol International airport announced flights en routes Kiev – Simferopol and Simferopol – Kiev will not be operated to/from the airport. In this regard Ukraine International Airlines inform the carrier is forced to cancel flights between Kiev and Simferopol through to March 17, 2014.
Within the period of March 12 – 17, 2014, UIA cancels PS061 and PS065 Kiev – Simferopol, as well as PS062 and PS064 Simferopol – Kiev flights due to reasons beyond the airline`s control.
“The discriminatory measures by Simferopol International airport cause inconvenience to hundreds of passengers both Ukrainians and foreigners, – noted Sergiy Fomenko, UIA Executive Vice President Commerce. – Termination of scheduled service between Kiev and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea mines the image of Ukraine and Crimea alike and causes severe economic losses to both UIA and Simferopol International airport”.
UIA looks forward to all flight restrictions to be lifted. The latter will provide the carrier with the opportunity to resume flights en route Kiev – Simferopol – Kiev starting March 18, 2014.
Detailed information on UIA rates and flight schedule is available on the company’s official website www.flyuia.com as well as the carrier`s call center at +38 (044) 5815050 or 566 (portables in Ukraine).

 

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