Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[I/O]

too late.

Why? Who will do anything (assuming Russia carries liability, either directly or vicariously)? 

[Muzh]

Shadow:

"An international and independent inquiry will be done to bring those responsible to justice."



Do you really think that response is appropriate Muzh? Shadow has lost 192 of his countrymen/women in a terrorist attack.
How would you feel if People around the world rolled on the floor laughing after 911? No, as I remember it, there were tremendous symphaty and support all the way until Bush started his stupid war on terrorism (war on those who disagree With the neo-cons)

Huh?


I'm laughing hysterically at the assumption that the Russians will allow an international investigation of this incident, especially when they will be caught with their pants down. I'm not laughing at the loss of life.


In addition, IIRC you were showing no sympathy whatsoever to the onslaught of Ukrainians by the terrorists. As a matter of fact, it seemed you were rooting for it.


For the record, I am extremely perturbed by this act of terrorism and even more saddened for the loss of innocent lives. Infants were victims of this massacre.


Everyone knows who pulled the trigger including yourself and here you are trying to lecture me in being human?

[Muzh]

Scroll down here and listen to the terrorists take claim of downing the plane, then say oops, we fcuk up, to finally say the plane was loaded with spies.


Any more questions?

[calmissile]

Scroll down to watch the videos.  There are pauses between sections, so be sure to wait long enough to ensure it is the end.
A few of the intercepted conversations between the terrorists and the Russian officers.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/07/19/233825/ukraine-video-claims-proof-of.html?sp=/99/100/&ihp=1

[noelscot]

That is inaccurate.  Ukrainians are the dominant ethnic group in all regions of Ukraine.  The only region where Russians dominated was Crimea.

I could have worded it better, but suffice it to say that there are larger populations of Russians in the east and, of course, Crimea than there are in the western areas of Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Ukrainian_Census

[AC]

US Intel (satellite photos, etc) indicate the BUK missile was fired from Snizhne, a city near the Russian border which lies within Donetsk oblast.  The man who operated the missile is said to be none other than one of the rebel leaders, who is a former Russian Colonel trained in operating the weapons system.  Once an airtight case has been assembled proving that Russia supplied the missile systems (3 were seen leaving Ukraine headed back to Russia, and it's normal for this system to be operated in a group of three), the evidence will be released to the World.

[na2]

While any death is regrettable and one life is no more valuable than the next; on board the downed airliner were ca.100 of the top scientists and clinicians involved in AIDS research. They represented the cutting edge as we move closer to a cure for HIV/AIDS. They were on their way to Melbourne to attend the 2014 AIDS conference and their loss is a body blow to all afflicted with the disease and their foreshortened lives can be added to the MH17 death toll as "collateral damage".  http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915087/hiv-research-community-dealt-a-body-blow-with-mh17

There seems to be some hedging of opinion regarding who launched the missile; but the weight of current evidence points to pro-Russian separatists in the region where the B777 was shot down. They had the motive; opportunity and the means to have perpetuated this crime.
 

[AC]

While any death is regrettable and one life is no more valuable than the next; on board the downed airliner were ca.100 of the top scientists and clinicians involved in AIDS research. They represented the cutting edge as we move closer to a cure for HIV/AIDS. They were on their way to Melbourne to attend the 2014 AIDS conference and their loss is a body blow to all afflicted with the disease and their foreshortened lives can be added to the MH17 death toll as "collateral damage".  http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915087/hiv-research-community-dealt-a-body-blow-with-mh17

There seems to be some hedging of opinion regarding who launched the missile; but the weight of current evidence points to pro-Russian separatists in the region where the B777 was shot down. They had the motive; opportunity and the means to have perpetuated this crime.

I just saw that an entire Dutch family lost their lives:  father, mother and four children.  Classmates of the children were interviewed and it was heartbreaking.  Those who did this must be brought to justice, and that includes economic damages against Russia for the tragic loss of life due to their actions.

[sleepycat]

Stripping Russia the right to host the 2018 World Cup would be a good start. Massive blow to Putler's ego and I want to see a photo of his face going bright red!

[I/O]

Stripping Russia the right to host the 2018 World Cup would be a good start. Massive blow to Putler's ego and I want to see a photo of his face going bright red!

Neither of those things will happen.

[Anotherkiwi]

You can try to nitpick each piece of evidence..... plus more to come, or you can step back and review the big picture:

1. If Russia had not created the unrest in Crimea and invaded it, Crimea would have continued to function peacefully as part of Ukraine as it had in the past.

2.  If Russia had not created the unrest in the East and South of Ukraine, and funded the terrorists, and provided Russian weapons to the terrorists, and provided Russian Military Officers to them,  East Ukraine would have continued to have peace.

The big picture..... If Russian had kept their nose in their own business, Ukraine would have found it much easier to rebuild their democratic country.

I realise that I'm being selective with editing the full quote by calmissile, but I believe that this is the absolute heart of the matter.  As I, and many others have stated from our first-hand knowledge, Russian-speaking people in eastern Ukraine did NOT feel threatened by those who speak Ukrainian as their first language, or by the Ukrainian government.  Therefore Putin's stated reason to take over assist people in Crimea, and then the eastern oblasts, was simply a pretext prior to invading.  I can't speak about the west, because I haven't been there and we haven't had any comments that I can recall from or about Russian speakers there.

[BillyB]

  Those who did this must be brought to justice, and that includes economic damages against Russia for the tragic loss of life due to their actions.

The costs of any economic damages Russia incurs will be pass along to the EU when Russia raises the price for gas. Russia will not pay for it and will not be brought to justice for this. Nobody will.

[BillyB]

Western media isn't all that biased by reporting the other side of the story. Rebels haven't touched the crash site and they are accusing Ukraine of preventing investigators to go to the site. Bodies are rotting and rebels are forced to ask Russia to help remove them.


http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-says-not-touched-crash-concerned-bodies-111411627.html

[Photo Guy]

The fact is Russia's Putin is supporting mercenaries and leaders like Girkin who is a Russian citizen in Ukraine leading separatists. That's why I blame Russia. Russia allows BUKs and tanks and other weapons into Ukraine. Putin's main goal is to undermine the new government in Ukraine. The junta threw out his buddy, Yanukovych. So Putin has a kind of vendetta. Here's an interesting video:

[Photo Guy]

That is inaccurate.  Ukrainians are the dominant ethnic group in all regions of Ukraine.  The only region where Russians dominated was Crimea.

True. I would also add that many people all over Ukraine speak Russian, while preferring a 'unified' Ukraine. My friends in Mariupol' speak primarily Russian and they think Putin is a madman.

[Shadow]

Perhaps those who are living in an alternate universe where the change of Crimea to Russia was done without previous developments and by invasion can blame Russia.
Others might hold the EU responsible for giving fuel to protests after being denied a trade agreement.
I am pretty sure that the Dutch EU commisioner Hans van Balen is not sleeping well since last Thursday.

And any call for sanctions against Russia is ludicrous, not to mention meddling in sports events. The Grand Prix F1 in Sochi has not yet come in to view, but has already been guaranteed no to be affected.

As mentioned, the BUK being fired in error by separatists is the most likely scenario. However as far as I am informed there is something in laws that states innocent until proven guilty, and proven guilty has to be beyond reasonable doubt. Out of respect to the victims it would be nice if people here would follow this and not use the incident to continue their attacks.

Instead of blaming and calling for sanctions, it would be better to regard this as what it is. Something nobody planned, wished or intended.

And instead of using it to further the conflict and steer towards war, I would use this as an opportunity to solve the conflict at a time that all those involved got a dose of reality as for widespread consequences of their actions.
Unfotunately many feel that increasing tensions and loss of life is a much better option.

[Shadow]

True. I would also add that many people all over Ukraine speak Russian, while preferring a 'unified' Ukraine. My friends in Mariupol' speak primarily Russian and they think Putin is a madman.

That is the tragedy of this whole episode. People who were not at all fan of Russia are driven in to the corner of a limited group by an equally limited group of others who wish to banish anything Russian from Ukraine.
When asked even the leaders of the separatists would prefer to stay within Ukraine, provided their is guarantee for the rights of their people. But haters are going to hate, and giving them government power usually does not end well.

[The Natural]

As mentioned, the BUK being fired in error by separatists is the most likely scenario. However as far as I am informed there is something in laws that states innocent until proven guilty, and proven guilty has to be beyond reasonable doubt. Out of respect to the victims it would be nice if people here would follow this and not use the incident to continue their attacks.

Yes, perhaps so. But as you, I'm perplexed that everyone seems to have reached that conclusion without any kind of investigation being done yet.
I'm wondering why we haven't heard anything of what the American spy satelittes picked up. They apparently before had full control of all troop movements on the Russian border and I'm sure they've kept a contant eye on the whole area for a long time.

[Manny]

I find Peter Hitchens quite an informed writer. He was once Moscow correspondent and lived in Russia for quite some time. I dont always agree with him, but his analysis of the whole Ukraine situation up to now has been very accurate. Here is his article from here today:

.................................................

Mourn the victims... but don't turn one tragedy into a global catastrophe

One thing we should have learned in the past 100 years is that war is hell. We might also have noticed that, once begun, war is hard to stop and often takes shocking turns.

So those who began the current war in Ukraine – the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday – really have no excuse.

There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory.

And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world’s most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995).

Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU – backed by the USA – sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit. It did so through violence and illegality, an armed mob and the overthrow of an elected president.

I warned then that this would lead to terrible conflict. I wrote in March: ‘Having raised hopes that we cannot fulfil, we have awakened the ancient passions of this cruel part of the world – and who knows where our vainglorious folly will now lead?’

Now we see. Largely unreported over the past few months, a filthy little war has been under way in Eastern Ukraine. Many innocents have died, unnoticed in the West. Neither side has anything to boast of – last Tuesday 11 innocent civilians died in an airstrike on a block of flats in the town of Snizhne, which Ukraine is unconvincingly trying to blame on Russia.

So PLEASE do not be propagandised by Thursday’s horrible slaughter into forgetting what is really going on. Powerful weapons make it all too easy for people to do stupid, frightful things. Wars make such things hugely more likely to happen.

In September 1983, the Soviet air force, inflamed by Cold War passions and fears, inexcusably massacred 269 people aboard a Korean Airlines 747.

In July 1988, highly trained US Navy experts aboard the cruiser Vincennes, using ultra-modern equipment, moronically mistook an Iranian Airbus, Iran Air Flight 655, for an F-14 Tomcat warplane. They shot the airliner out of the sky, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children. All kinds of official untruths were told at the time to excuse this. In October 2001, bungling Ukrainian servicemen on exercise were the main suspects for the destruction of Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 over the Black Sea. Whoever did it, they killed 78 passengers and crew en route from Israel to Novosibirsk – though Ukraine has never officially admitted guilt.

Complex quarrels about blame for such horrors are often never resolved. I am among many who do not believe that Libya had anything to do with the mass murder of those aboard Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in December 1988, very likely an Iranian-backed retaliation for the Airbus tragedy. All the evidence points to a terror group operating from Syrian-controlled territory, and none points to Libya.

But at the time of the prosecution, we were trying to make friends with Syria, which has since gone back near the top of our enemies list but may soon be our ally again, against the fanatics of Isis. Confused? You should be.

So, let us just mourn the dead and comfort the bereaved, and regret human folly and the wickedness of war. Let us not allow this miserable event to be fanned into a new war. That is what we did almost 100 years ago, and it is about time we learned something from that.

[The Natural]

Very good article Manny. Goes to show the big picture.

[Shadow]

For those who only lose the people that have chosen to fight war is much easier to start as for those that lose innocent civilians. Perhaps that is why the most cries for war come from areas that were not fighting it on their own ground for over 100 years.

[jone]

Nice to see the Russian apologists all get together at one sitting.   At least Manny isn't calling everyone sheeple for believing Strelkov's Facebook postings on this forum.

Shadow, if walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck you can call it a pig because you haven't done DNA testing on it, but everyone else will call it a duck.

[lonedrake]

 So far the International response has been pathetic. Sure some have called for those responsible to be punished....but what has been done. So far .....just let those who are most likely responsible for the crime to control the crime scene. What a joke.

The Netherlands, Malaysia and Ukraine should have requested help from all countries who had citizens involved and them picked a team to go in and secure the crime scene. If they needed 100 gunships and 5,000 troops...so be it. Secure the area,gather the evidence, return the bodies and then decide who needs to be held accountable.

[I/O]

secure the crime scene. If they needed 100 gunships and 5,000 troops...so be it. Secure the area,gather the evidence, return the bodies and then decide who needs to be held accountable.

A military strategy of Donald Duck proportions. Fill a few more body bags while the existing corpses lay rotting in the summer sun? Just where would those 5000 troops unfamiliar and unprepared for the area suddenly materialise from? Put the crack pipe down.....

[lonedrake]

 Why would they need to be familiar with the area?

 Either international law has some teeth....or it is as worthless as the paper it is written on.

 Fly them in ,create a perimeter and get the job done.