Update - 13 years later

[ML]

. . . I might end up marrying if nothing very special gets a foot into the door opening.
if I love her enough, I should just accept it, and believe her when she promise to quit at some point in the future.
I might have to just accept that, along with several other "important for me" bad traits that she see no reason to try to change.

Please don't do this!

[JayH]

After a lot of trouble again, with the car rental company, I was arriving in the center of Kiev at approx. 17 in the evening.
Just in time for a shave and change of clothes at the toilet of a gas station, before picking up Kiev33 after work at 18.00 outside her office.

Jan which car rental company was/is it? You say "trouble again"-- what was previous problems and what is the trouble this time?
Was the tyre issue discussed ( non winter tyres)- Was there any option?

I try and avoid driving at night unless I already know the road reasonably well. The biggest and worst accidents I have seen have involved trucks at night  .

[Patagonie]

North
You perform nice.
Heart has some reasons that the logic can disapprove but emotions are the ones who make you alive.
You have your own morale and your own way.
It is also true that flirting with genuine FSU women is like sleeping in the paradise, all is so rose that you want it to never stop.

[northkape]

ML
..... "if I love her enough, I should just accept it" ..... those are her words and her opinion,, I have a somewhat different viewpoint....

JayH
To my surprise it has winter tires,, I go look before writing this,,, but some "NeverHeardAbout" China crap...

This time rented through my airline as it was an easy option with nothing to fill in, except for choosing a car.
And I trusted them in connecting with quality partners.......?

My online confirmation said Terminal F.....????
Arriving at the info-desk in new terminal D, I ask the Lady, what rental can possibly be in F??
She shakes her head,, no,no,no it's in B........ Why does it say F...... 10 min later off the third phone, it's in F.
Shuttle bus drops me in front of B, as F is closed off....
Not dressed for outdoor, I button up and walks the 500 meters while a mix of rain and snow hits my face straight on.
Well F is actually closed,,, the police officer shakes his head and points at B, only 500 meters away, with the snow attacking from behind instead.
In B all rental desks are closed except for Hertz,,,,
Admitting that I'm not a Hertz customer this time, it takes a lot of pleading her with sweet words,
before miss beautiful 25 stops doing her nails and looks at me with a warm smile.
She looks at my reservation and calls each and every phone number in there at least twice before returning to her nails.
"shuttling" back to D,,, a new man at info-desk shakes his head after trying to get through on those same phone numbers.

AHHHH,,,, coming in from the side with broken English,
this problema is every day.... there side door behind left side terminal F, press hard, try all doors, after 5 you can it see....

After "shuttling",,,,, the Taxi driver refuse to go the 500 meters as F is closed and secure area, no permit...
My shoes are now soaked, but I found all 5 doors and the little window with a young man inside,
admitting with a smile, that things are never easy in Ukraine..........
When finished signing all the papers, we walk outdoor again to the gate of the secure area F.
The police officer opens the door and takes all documents, including my passport and drivers license.
Me and the young rental man (that is appropriately dressed) are left outside for a nice chat about how funny this is.
After only 10 minutes, the officer is already done with scrutinizing our documents,,,,
I can leave the airport, with shoes and socks taken off my ice cold feets,,,, still smiling, as I know what is waiting for me.

[northkape]

Yes, Pat...
A mix of heaven and hell,,,,,,,, heaven dating,,, hell being that I can only choose one......
-
Let's get back to that evening in Kharkov...
First and foremost I'm going there to meet with a young software developer named Vadim.
We have been Skyping / writing about an interesting project, and I wanted to meet with him before proceeding.
-
Among my woman prospects there, I have long time Kharkov32, since before the summer,
She responded to my intro-letter because she needed a mans shoulder to cry on at that time.
Having gone on an exotic Thailand holiday, with an European man that she was deeply in love with, during the winter,
she was now being dumped in favor of another young woman without a child.
I never considered her seriously, but she is a nice woman with an open and friendly personality.
Many times when working late in my shop, I would put on my headset and talk with her while working.
Not anorexia, but very slim with the right curves like a sexy "late teen" girl, good looking, but not beautiful.
-
more later....

[northkape]

Since I was driving here, to Kharkov during the previous night, I have no place to stay except for my car at the moment.
If I'm staying for the next night, I'm welcome to stay with Kharkov32, but I'm not there yet....
-
My meeting with Vadim is at 18.30 close to the center....
Then three hours before this, I get a mail from a very nice Kharkov36, that has responded to my profile on one of the sites..
I respond immediately, telling her that I'm in Kharkov at the moment, suggesting a quick meeting.
A couple of minutes later I have her on the phone, and we are chatting nicely for the next ten minutes....
We agree on meeting at the same place I will meet with Vadim, as soon as we are able to get there..
I just need to send her a SMS with the address....
Just perfect,, I write her a nice message with the address and a description about where I will be waiting for her.
Then Murphy comes along,,,, throwing sand into it,,,,

[northkape]

As it was, I had been talking too much on the phone without checking remaining credit.
So my SMS to Kharkov36 (with address for meeting) stopped halfway in transferring......
It took all of the next 25 minutes to find a place with calling cards,, updating credit,, and then resending the SMS..
But I get no answer on her phone for the next 15 minutes,,, she was on her way home already.
-
Only two minutes before arriving to meet with Kharkov32,, one of my phone calls, and I answer without looking,, thinking it is her.
But it isn’t,, it’s Kirhovorad32, one of my favorites from the summer that I have never met with.
She loves talking on the phone,, and starts discussing our meeting the next day.
In front of me to the right, on the opposite corner, I see Kharkov32 standing in a long white coat protecting her from the blowing snow.
I turn left instead of right,  to avoid hanging up on Kirhovorad32.
Twenty minutes later after a little argument with my navigator I am back to pick up Kharkov32.
I am afraid, that she will no longer be standing there in the freezing snowdrift, and she isn’t.
After a few attempts, I get her on the phone, she is at home a few blocks away.
Inside the restaurant I help her take off the long white coat,,,
Not only does she have the figure of a late teen, she is dressed like one also.
Tight, worn out jeans with a low midline, and a matching top that shows her naked flat belly.
Without seeing her face, you could easily mistake her for being twenty.
As expected from our Skype talks, she is a friendly young woman that enjoys meeting with me.
Always smiling, but for my taste, a little too shy and somewhat immature in her behavior.
She has to leave for home when the restaurant closes at midnight.
Opening the door for her, I let her out of my car with a light kiss on her cheek.
She wants to see me again, and I tell her I will be back in Kharkov within a month or two.
-
Awakening from the slumbering in my car, on this beautiful sunny morning outside Dniepropetrovsk,
I start looking through my schedule for the remaining six days of my ten day trip.
-
I have in front of me,, three very beautiful women: Dniepropetrovsk36,, Kirhovorad32,, and Zaporozhye32
On top of that, the lovely Kiev33 wants to meet with me again, in Kiev at the end of the week.
And my love from the summer trip, Kiev32 is calling me constantly every evening.
Since I don’t want to answer her about meeting with other women, and long arguments on the phone,
I have decided not to answer her calls, before I go to visit her on the last one of my remaining days, before going home.

[ML]

Interesting names these gals have.  I actually  never met any who were named after cities!!   

But I must say, I am pretty lost in trying to figure out where you  are at any given point, and how you get from place to place, etc.  Yes, I know you are driving a car.

I think others have written about the perils of spending most of the trip traveling from here to there; any relevance here?
 

[JayH]

Interesting names these gals have.  I actually  never met any who were named after cities!!   

But I must say, I am pretty lost in trying to figure out where you  are at any given point, and how you get from place to place, etc.  Yes, I know you are driving a car.

I think others have written about the perils of spending most of the trip traveling from here to there; any relevance here?

ML-- I think I have cracked his code !! City & age to identify -avoids confusion in ones mind !!
Point on travelling-- driving yourself  absolutely minimises travel times between cities -particularly  as little time is lost waiting around etc.  What is an all day exercise on public system can be less than half a day. I have often driven to have lunch meeting  in a city a up to 3 hours ( maybe up to 200kms) and back in the same day.It gives much greater flexibility. When in contact--being able to say-- lets have breakfast/lunch/dinner /a coffee now/ today-now etc very quickly sorts out who really wants to meet etc
While driving  yourself   is not for everyone -- for me it is much more convenient and normal way to live.Not wishing to harp on previous point too much !! -- Not being tied to apartment in one place sort of fits with this--I can leave at breakfast and be somewhere else the same day-- and still have time to have made several meetings.
That all presumes a lot warmer weather than is there today!!

[Chicagoguy]

As for Russia, the distances and roads pretty much preclude driving.

[northkape]

ML
As you have already figured out earlier, I am a man trying to solve this riddle with "a system of logic"

I was able to find a truly great woman with the help of "Internet dating"  more than 13 years ago.
She is still in many ways "my best friend",,,
and we are still living together even though we decided to divorce more than a year ago.

But I did an endless amount of mistakes at that time, wasting the most of two years with nothing to show for it.
Because I didn't know and understand enough to make a plan and execute it systematically.
Also finding a FSU wife on the Internet then in 1998,
was something very different from the tremendous amount of women and "tools" available today.

In the 10 days behind me, I followed a plan that was well organized in every detail before leaving.
To avoid loosing and wasting time I arranged for meeting with more women than it was possible to do.
But very flexible, with approximate arrival time for each of the women to adjust to, until a few hours ahead of meeting.
And a strong focus on meeting all of my favorites more than once, if possible and wanted by both parties.

In addition, I had three business meetings in Kiev, Kharkov and Dniepropetrovsk to slide in between the dating.
Unfortunately these business meetings were very late in the day also, and very disturbing for my dating plan.

Looking back at it now when at home, it was a very productive trip with results far above my expectations.
Yes, there was a lot of driving, more than 3000 km / 1900 miles,
with very little time for eating or sleeping as I was driving mostly at night.
(meetings with my favorites usually ended after midnight)
Lack of sleep was a problem at the end, as I never had more than two-three hours available for sleeping per night.

As it looks now I am ending my search, and continuing dating with four of these women.
They are all interested in going forward with more meetings, before a decision about marrying can be made.

Just like JayH..
In my opinion using a car beats anything, if you are really looking for "the most suitable" woman within a given timeframe.

That goes for Russia also, you could easily reach the entire St.Peterstburg to Moskva area,,,
with a tremendous amount of women available in a similar ten day trip with a car.
I did exactly that area by car in the same way, more than 14 years ago, but not as successfully as today.

[GQBlues]

Northkape-

There certainly is nothing wrong with being meticulous. In fact, it's quite admirable.

Just curious though as you seem to expend this much effort, time and money searching for someone compatible with you, wouldn't it be more prudent to find one in your country, or are you also processing them along with your Ukraine search?

If not, why not?

[northkape]

Just wondering GQ,,

Why you would think it advisable, to search in my home country at all.
Ukraine has 10 times the population of Norway.
And probably a multiple of 10 times, the number of women in their thirties with a single child looking for a man to marry.
Finding her in Norway is a much larger problem than the additional work of integrating a foreign woman here.

Yes, I did look, but not seriously,, meaning no writing to anyone at all.
I just considered it a waste of time.

[northkape]

I'm standing in front of the door to their apartment in Dnieprozherzhinsk,, ringing the bell.
What strange twists of fate, I met them here 13 years ago, when I came to marry their only daughter.
Now I'm coming here to live together with them, while searching for another young woman to marry.
-
They open the door smiling, and welcoming me in, my mother in law is as always, very happy to see me again.
My favorite Ukraine dish is already served on the table, and waiting for me,
I'm almost feeling ashamed for not being able to say more of a thank you than "bolsjoye spasiba"
-
After dinner I tell them that I will drive to a meeting in Dniepropetrovsk, and return sometimes after midnight.
-
Dniepropetrovsk36 is supposed to meet with me at the French Carousel in the European Square at 19.00

[Ade]

Just wondering GQ,,

Why you would think it advisable, to search in my home country at all.
Ukraine has 10 times the population of Norway.
And probably a multiple of 10 times, the number of women in their thirties with a single child looking for a man to marry.
Finding her in Norway is a much larger problem than the additional work of integrating a foreign woman here.

Yes, I did look, but not seriously,, meaning no writing to anyone at all.
I just considered it a waste of time.

Of course, few, if any, Norwegian women in their thirties would be interested in a man old enough to be their father. And those that would be, would be because of daddy issues or desperation.

But I did know a Norwegian woman in her thirties who was with a fifty year old man - he was my ex-Father in law and she his common law wife. She was very overweight (though she had a bright and sunny personality) and he was a dour old bugger. She eventually cheated on him, he found out but accepted the humiliation of her ongoing affair as the alternative was to be alone in his dotage.

[GQBlues]

Just wondering GQ,,

Why you would think it advisable, to search in my home country at all.
Ukraine has 10 times the population of Norway.
And probably a multiple of 10 times, the number of women in their thirties with a single child looking for a man to marry.
Finding her in Norway is a much larger problem than the additional work of integrating a foreign woman here....

Curiosity, not advice. I was simply curious.

For one, I do fancy the Nordic features. The Norwegian women I've had the opportunity of meeting here in LA were absolutely gorgeous. You posted pictures of your past flames which supports my sentiment. John Lennon, too for that matter.

Moreover, it fascinates me how much time is expended searching for someone 'compatible' when one would think someone in your own society and culture would already be 'more' compatible with you since the woman would no longer have any adjustment/acclimation/language issues to deal with.

OK, the age difference would likely be a factor based on your personal preference, so that's a whole other matter altogether.

As for population, yeah, I get that. But you're assuming ALL of Ukraine's single female population are open for international marriages. I happen to disagree. If I am right about that, then what you said is illogical. Also, I just surfed a Norway personal and it seems there are in fact MANY Norwegian females available for both dating and marriage.

Anywho, just curious...

...Yes, I did look, but not seriously,, meaning no writing to anyone at all.
I just considered it a waste of time.

Gotcha!

[northkape]

Ade..
I agree with you about one thing,, there are very few women in their thirties here in Norway that might be interested in a man 20+ years older than themselves.
Whatever personality or other features this man brings to the table, the age difference alone, is a complete turn off for the overwhelming majority.
The remaining small percentage might not be interested, but can fall in love based on personal preferences where they are willing to accept a large difference in age.
About these women, I would never feel comfortable labeling individuals with other priorities and beliefs than my own, into blanket categories like: desperate or father syndrome.

My wonderful life here on earth is simply to short, for me to have a passion for downgrading other peoples lives and their personal happiness.

This same turn-off for large age gaps, is valid for the majority of FSU women also, but probably to a much lesser degree.
After years of searching for the man of their dreams, they either gave up, or gradually adjusted their expectations to what they realistically might find.
They will still fall passionately in love with their somewhat older "prince", and plan their future life and happiness together with this man accordingly. 
These are my own thoughts based on my personal experience, gained from discussing this subject with a large amount of women, also with some agency managers,
and reading Russian Women forums.

It's been almost a year since starting my search by sending a large amount of intro letters to "very good looking" 20+ years younger women with a single child.
Looking back at it now, I am somewhat surprised by the relatively large amount of women that were seriously interested in meeting with me.
It was very unexpected, as I had no idea at the beginning of the year what kind of value I represented in the "used but still running" market.

Having been married with a large age gap for the last 13 years, I don't see much of a problem with the age alone, as daily life conflicts, are mostly the same whatever the age.   

Anyway,,, for me,,,, not only do I prefer strong and independent women, I could never find happiness with anything less.
I will marry with an educated, somewhat ambitious young woman that knows a lot about what she wants from her life.
Then if the day arrives, when she feels uncomfortable being with me, she will simply walk out on me, and leave me.
Thats all there is to it, nothing more and nothing less. I just can't imagine there being much of a drama to it at all.

Yes GQ,, I understand your curiosity,,
In my youth there were a lot of available beautiful girls at home, and I loved dating with them.
There are still available single women, much younger than me here at home, that I dated with 15-20 years ago.
But I had no interest in marrying them at that time, and even less so today.

Of course,,, not all of Ukraine's single female population are open for international marriages.
But not all of Norway's single female population are open for Internet dating either.
And a majority of the women I know here at home above 35, have no plans about ever marrying or getting into a permanent relationship again.
As with Lena being smitten by these same female views, she is looking for a man, but not a long time relationship,, and re-marrying,,, absolutely not.

[Ade]

Having been married with a large age gap for the last 13 years, I don't see much of a problem with the age alone, as daily life conflicts, are mostly the same whatever the age.   

13 years ago you were 45... The older you get the more extreme the differences will become. But, it's your life. Just be aware that your love interest with a 20+ year age gap will, in all probability, be more interested in the life style you can give her rather than your sparkling personality. In some time, if she can get the same lifestyle with someone her own age, there's a good chance you will become superfluous and she will walk away with with some of your assets too.

[ML]

NorthK . . . I am not really understanding why you have this urge to get married.

You and your children's mother will be raising the children and sharing the duties . . .  right?

There are plenty of women around for ST and LT relationships; why the need to get married?

And why do you want the woman to have an interest in a career of her own?

As I understand it; your ex wanted too much of a career (and you didn't like that), and one of your gals from your current search didn't want a career (and you didn't like that).

So are you really thinking you can fine tune it enough that the gal will want just the right amount of career to suit you?  And if you find such, won't she change over time anyway?

It seems you have enough money to support a woman and your children without her working; so why the need to find a woman who wants a career? 

Seems it would be best for you to find a woman who just wants to be a homebody and spend all free time with you doing the fun things in life.

I know with my Ochka, I would be somewhat happier if she just stayed home with me all day long, every day, rather than her schooling and desires to do some teaching after finishing her degrees (if she ever decides to stop getting degrees).

I may be wrong with some of my 'facts' stated above about what I think your situation and desires are because my Alzheimer's comes and goes and I don't always know when it is here . . . which is how it is designed to work I guess.   

So where I am wrong, don't take it personally, just correct my 'fact' and go from there.

Best to you  and your family,  ML

[mendeleyev]

Ade, you are right and one can see this in "arrangements" with well-to-do Russian businessmen and their much younger partners. Eventually the young lady steps up the frequency of meeting "friends" from Friday nights to several nights each week and over time the old man begins to be attended to by a nurse but the younger partner has left--taking her wardrobe, sports car, electronic gadgets and as many of his assets as she could gather without angering him to the point of arranging a hit on her life.

It is the essence of the "arrangement" and fairly well understood going into the game. That is often what attracts younger hotties to older men despite the fact that the guy believes that she finds him sexy when he is out of breath upon reaching the top a staircase.

[ML]

the guy believes that she finds him sexy when he is out of breath upon reaching the top a staircase.

Recently, Ochka said to me:  Let's go upstairs and have sex.

I said:  Choose one or the other.

[jone]

Ade, you are right and one can see this in "arrangements" with well-to-do Russian businessmen and their much younger partners. Eventually the young lady steps up the frequency of meeting "friends" from Friday nights to several nights each week and over time the old man begins to be attended to by a nurse but the younger partner has left--taking her wardrobe, sports car, electronic gadgets and as many of his assets as she could gather without angering him to the point of arranging a hit on her life.

It is the essence of the "arrangement" and fairly well understood going into the game. That is often what attracts younger hotties to older men despite the fact that the guy believes that she finds him sexy when he is out of breath upon reaching the top a staircase.

And then there is the other perspective:

Mendy,

I have met many young ladies who come to America from Eastern European countries.  I almost married one.  I was slightly over twenty years her senior.

Let me tell you about my friend Aliona (name changed).  She is from Kyiv (city changed).  She came here when she was 23.  I met her that same year.  She once showed me pictures of a friend of hers.  She was getting married.  He was 25, she was 24.  She said that in her opinion the marriage would last only five to ten years.  She believed that men her own age could not deal with the rigors or marriage. (Her opinion, not mine.)

She had some history behind her reasoning.  When she was 12, her father left her family to start another one.  She has a half brother she has never met. 

Aliona's mother is a kind and loving woman.  But if one looks at her, the years have been hard on her.  She is approaching 50 and looks older than 65.  She would be the classic babushka in two or three years.  If I am a younger woman, looking at my mother, I would seriously consider that the years that I have in front of me.  And they do.  And she did.

Aliona married a man who was 48.  I have met him.  He does not have a lot of money.  He is fun to be around and they have a very happy life, living in a condominium and going to the beach.  They go to clubs and eat out and travel.  It is the life she chose for herself. 

This is not the life I would want for a child of mine.  I would want them to have children and grandchildren of their own.  But the background that Aliona comes from does not teach her that such goals are in her best interest.  I spend time with Aliona and her husband.  I enjoy their company and the company of the bevy of friends that we mutually have from Eastern Europe.

Now there are many women who marry to have the security of someone who is well heeled.  But I believe that there are young women who simply fall in love with an older man.

[northkape]

Ade
Was your answer / warning directed at me or for other by-passers to read...
If it was for me, wouldn't it occur to you, that I probably had this same warning repeated over and over, by others who also doesn't know me?

Also your words makes me wonder what kind of a relationship you have with your own wife.
Do you understand when a woman truly loves you? If yes, why don't you grant others the intelligence to understand the same feelings?
Or are you, and some of the other members here, omnipotent in your wisdom to understand relationships between people you know nothing about.
While you insinuate that the same people at the same time don't understand it themselves.

I have been passionately in love with all women in my life that I had a true relationship with, and they were also deeply in love with me.
All normal people I ever met with, understand such feelings, and they also know and understand that these feelings can't be faked over time.

Still Ade,, you think that I would marry a woman that wasn't in love with me, that is attracted to me for some superficial values, and that I'm unable to understand this.
What kind of a man are you Ade?? And how did you get to feel this position of superiority, face to face with another man you know nothing about.

If you knew more about me or googled me (like some of these women did), you would know, that I have no way of providing for an affluent lifestyle.
The women I am interested in, have a good career, good income, and a relatively happy life except for the missing man in their life / father for their child.
I have nothing to offer financially that they are unable to provide themselves,, and really,, I don't connect well with women who are interested in superficial values.

Also, I don't care much about my assets either, I would never make a prenuptial agreement with a woman who is my best friend and lover.
The women I had relationships with in my life were never interested in my assets, so there wasn't ever any need for an agreement.
As of today my assets are less than my debts so there is nothing for anyone to walk away with, but of course, this might change again in the future.

ML
I appreciate your interest,, answers to the riddle will unfold as the path is walked....

Mendy
read above

[Hammer2722]

Well said Northkape, very well said....

[mendeleyev]

Mendy
read above

And that changes the classic arrangement I described in what way?